In the words of Spike Milligan: "What are we going to do now?"[...]
The SPMs (Sub Post Masters) have no trust in the PO (Post Office), and
the replacement for Horizon - called NBIT - is not yet on the horizon!
I think the PO is doomed.
So what do we need the PO for?
What happens in other countries? Is there an equivalent to the PO? Is banking easily available to the whole population? How does the average citizen interact with government?
In the words of Spike Milligan: "What are we going to do now?"
The SPMs (Sub Post Masters) have no trust in the PO (Post Office), and the replacement for Horizon -
called NBIT - is not yet on the horizon! I think the PO is doomed.
So what do we need the PO for?
Postal Service. This is what the GPO (General Post Office) did originally; collect and deliver
mail. It was extended to become the citizen's contact point with government: paying pensions and
benefits; providing basic banking; and handling passports, car tax, driving licenses, etc. It
received income for this so allowing small shops to operate sub post offices. We still need the
postal service for its USO (Universal Service Obligation) and RMG (Royal Mail Group) now (since
separating from the PO in 2012) provides this and pays the PO (and other outlets) for selling
postage stamps.
Banking. This is the only other useful function provided by the PO, and it is only because
traditional high street banks no longer operate anywhere other than large towns and cities. All
government payments to citizens are now paid into bank accounts so it would be sensible to force
banks to meet a USO on opening hours and easy access for 100% of the population.
Everything else is done via the internet which suggests that internet connectivity should meet a USO.
What happens in other countries? Is there an equivalent to the PO? Is banking easily available to
the whole population? How does the average citizen interact with government?
In the words of Spike Milligan: "What are we going to do now?"
The SPMs (Sub Post Masters) have no trust in the PO (Post Office), and
the replacement for Horizon - called NBIT - is not yet on the horizon! I think the PO is doomed.
So what do we need the PO for?
Postal Service. This is what the GPO (General Post Office) did
originally; collect and deliver mail. It was extended to become the
citizen's contact point with government: paying pensions and benefits; providing basic banking; and handling passports, car tax, driving
licenses, etc. It received income for this so allowing small shops to operate sub post offices. We still need the postal service for its USO (Universal Service Obligation) and RMG (Royal Mail Group) now (since separating from the PO in 2012) provides this and pays the PO (and other outlets) for selling postage stamps.
Banking. This is the only other useful function provided by the PO, and
it is only because traditional high street banks no longer operate
anywhere other than large towns and cities. All government payments to citizens are now paid into bank accounts so it would be sensible to
force banks to meet a USO on opening hours and easy access for 100% of
the population.
Everything else is done via the internet which suggests that internet connectivity should meet a USO.
What happens in other countries? Is there an equivalent to the PO? Is banking easily available to the whole population? How does the average citizen interact with government?
As much as the PO does handle initial passports, they can be renewed via
the internet if renewed before they expire. And renewed via mail (not related to the PO). We did our last revision that way, you have to find some business doing passport photos (dual mug shots at once).
Hope this helps.
- "government"? What's that!? But seriously, that's hard to answer. Most
things can be done via websites. We have a digital ID (DigiD), which
can be used to login on most government sites, but also other sites
such as our health insurance companies.
The plan is to create one central 'portal', from which you can be
directed to all these sub organizations.
And for some face-to-face stuff (passport, driving license, etc.) we
have the town hall and its subsidiaries.
Hope this helps.
Alan K. wrote:
[snip]
As much as the PO does handle initial passports, they can be renewed via the internet if renewed
before they expire. And renewed via mail (not related to the PO). We did our last revision that
way, you have to find some business doing passport photos (dual mug shots at once).
Hope this helps.
Thanks.
How widespread is reliable internet? Particularly in rural areas?
What proportion of the population has a computer and is competent to use it?
What happens in other countries? Is there an equivalent to the PO? Is >banking easily available to the whole population? How does the average >citizen interact with government?
On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 10:41:17 +0000, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk>
wrote:
What happens in other countries? Is there an equivalent to the PO? Is
banking easily available to the whole population? How does the average
citizen interact with government?
In South Africa the post office was similar to the UK until about
1987, when under the influence of the then fashionable Thatcherist neoliberalism it stopped being a government department under the
Minister of Posts and Telecommunications and the Postmaster General,
and was run like a business, and became a State-Owned Enterprise
(SOE). Or, rather, it was split into two -- the Post Office and
Telkom.
That was a death senrtence for the Post Office, as its
telecommunications branch had been far more lucrative than its postal business, and it has gone downhill everf since, and is now bankrupt
and almost defunct. There are several provately-owned courier
services, which are, howeever excessively expensive, and virtually
useless for people living in remotrer rural areas or even in many
small towns far from major centres,
Nearly all the post offices in our immediate vicinity have closed. We
used to rent a post office box, but gave it up last year, because it
just wasn't worth it.
Nearly all the post offices in our immediate vicinity have closed. We
used to rent a post office box, but gave it up last year, because it
just wasn't worth it.
Banking. This is the only other useful function provided by the PO, and
it is only because traditional high street banks no longer operate
anywhere other than large towns and cities. All government payments to
citizens are now paid into bank accounts so it would be sensible to
force banks to meet a USO on opening hours and easy access for 100% of
the population.
Not likely. Can't imagine any remote area having branches from all banks, especially as the new banks have none. Community banking - which is what
the PO offers - is a better solution.
Frank Slootweg wrote:
[snip]
- "government"? What's that!? But seriously, that's hard to answer. Most
things can be done via websites. We have a digital ID (DigiD), which
can be used to login on most government sites, but also other sites
such as our health insurance companies.
The plan is to create one central 'portal', from which you can be
directed to all these sub organizations.
And for some face-to-face stuff (passport, driving license, etc.) we
have the town hall and its subsidiaries.
Hope this helps.
Thanks.
How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it competently?
How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it
competently?
Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line,
4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.
How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it competently?
wasbit wrote:officialdom is via the internet.
[snip]
How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it competently?
Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line, 4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.
Only people who read this newsgroup understand the difference between these provisions. The rest of the population hasn't a clue.
Their view is that if they can get "the internet" reliably wherever they are, it's good enough. So for considerable areas in the UK (mainly rural) it certainly isn't adequate. Which becomes a serious issue if the only way to communicate with
On Mon, 1/6/2025 5:55 AM, Graham J wrote:officialdom is via the internet.
wasbit wrote:
[snip]
How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it competently?
Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line, 4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.
Only people who read this newsgroup understand the difference between these provisions. The rest of the population hasn't a clue.
Their view is that if they can get "the internet" reliably wherever they are, it's good enough. So for considerable areas in the UK (mainly rural) it certainly isn't adequate. Which becomes a serious issue if the only way to communicate with
The government in one area of my country, put a program in place
to improve Internet service for extreme rural citizens. Some
of this was done with WISP setups (microwave link). One antenna
being able to service multiple recipients.
The plan was expected to take around ten years to burn up all the
available money for it. It does not "guarantee" that each woodland
creature gets the Internetz, but it does attempt to better connect
small pockets of people. The regular ISPs and major companies, have
rules about the density of people they are willing to cover with
service.
My sister is on a WISP, at latitude 56 degrees, and the WISP does
not come from a major ISP, it comes from "some guy in town who
set up his own ISP". That's how you do things in a small town :-)
I presume this means there is a fiber trunk running up the
highway, and that's how the trunking is done to make that possible.
Then WISP from a building in town, into the woods.
Citizens know they have to ask questions about their utilities.
Where is my water coming from ? Where is my electricity coming from ?
How will I heat my house ? And, what Internet sources are available ?
Those are utility questions, and most citizens have been challenged
(had someone ask them questions in the past), so they now know they
should have answers at the ready. Utility bills are sometimes
used to augment an identity check ("I have been living at this
address since 1956", shows man the bill for the telephone from 1956).
That's why you don't throw out all the paper bills.
So should the PO now be funded directly by the banks?
It is already.
It provides services for Starling and the Co-op and, I suspect, several others. Actually, it's 30 banks and BS. https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/post-office-to-continue-to-offer-banking-services-for-30-banks-and-building-societies-ax3GC1s2uTJG
Also, I didn't realise the PO already hosts dozens of "banking hubs" across the UK. That's good news.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/bankinghubs
Paul wrote:officialdom is via the internet.
On Mon, 1/6/2025 5:55 AM, Graham J wrote:
wasbit wrote:
[snip]
How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it competently?
Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line, 4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.
Only people who read this newsgroup understand the difference between these provisions. The rest of the population hasn't a clue.
Their view is that if they can get "the internet" reliably wherever they are, it's good enough. So for considerable areas in the UK (mainly rural) it certainly isn't adequate. Which becomes a serious issue if the only way to communicate with
The government in one area of my country, put a program in place
to improve Internet service for extreme rural citizens. Some
of this was done with WISP setups (microwave link). One antenna
being able to service multiple recipients.
The plan was expected to take around ten years to burn up all the
available money for it. It does not "guarantee" that each woodland
creature gets the Internetz, but it does attempt to better connect
small pockets of people. The regular ISPs and major companies, have
rules about the density of people they are willing to cover with
service.
My sister is on a WISP, at latitude 56 degrees, and the WISP does
not come from a major ISP, it comes from "some guy in town who
set up his own ISP". That's how you do things in a small town :-)
I presume this means there is a fiber trunk running up the
highway, and that's how the trunking is done to make that possible.
Then WISP from a building in town, into the woods.
Citizens know they have to ask questions about their utilities.
Where is my water coming from ? Where is my electricity coming from ?
How will I heat my house ? And, what Internet sources are available ?
Those are utility questions, and most citizens have been challenged
(had someone ask them questions in the past), so they now know they
should have answers at the ready. Utility bills are sometimes
used to augment an identity check ("I have been living at this
address since 1956", shows man the bill for the telephone from 1956).
That's why you don't throw out all the paper bills.
This is Canada - yes?
Is it fair to say that in rural areas citizens must make their own arrangements for water, electricity, and heating? That there's no nationally provided service? What about roads?
Do you think the services to Starling et al and the banking hubs can
continue if Horizon stops working (as it might when Fujitsu refuses to
support it any more) and the replacement (NBIT) doesn't materialise?
How do you know they are linked?
I suspect the banks will have to provide the computer support.
I would suspect they aren't using Horizon for the bank work.
This is one area where the Scottish government has done well. Internet
access is good pretty much everywhere and there's a plan to get 100% coverage.
Steve Hayes wrote:
[snip]
Nearly all the post offices in our immediate vicinity have closed. We
used to rent a post office box, but gave it up last year, because it
just wasn't worth it.
My recollection of sending mail to relatives in SA was that they all had
PO boxes - because there was no such thing as a delivery service. Has
that now changed?
It follows that the cash drawer contains money from different sources,
and for different reasons. So a proper reconciliation at the end of
each trading period is vital. This was one of the areas where the lack
of an audit trail available to the SPM (and in some cases to PO
investigators themselves) led to wrongful prosecutions.
OK. If that's the case then I'm sure they'll have a good solution given
it's an important service for the PO :-^)
Chris wrote:
[snip]
It follows that the cash drawer contains money from different sources,
and for different reasons. So a proper reconciliation at the end of
each trading period is vital. This was one of the areas where the lack >>> of an audit trail available to the SPM (and in some cases to PO
investigators themselves) led to wrongful prosecutions.
OK. If that's the case then I'm sure they'll have a good solution given
it's an important service for the PO :-^)
I very much doubt it. Even the current PO management has no understanding of how unreliable the current Horizon system is, and the development programme for its replacement appears to be stalled.
My contention is that this in itself renders the PO in its existing form unsustainable, so it would be better to close it completely. Its banking facility is the only loss to society, so it may be that we all become much greater users of cash.
We can buy stamps from other places as well now. Although, given so few
write letters it is really expensive to send mail. I know some who no
longer send Christmas cards due to the cost.
The reason Post Offices must "stay the course", is they need income, badly. You can't chuck away anything that makes money. You could for
example, have a lemonade stand at the PO, just so they can make
a bit of cash on the side.
If they stop doing things, just handling letter mail is never going to
work. I stand by my contention, that a letter that costs $1 today to
mail, is going to cost $40 ten years from now, simply because the PO
won't be around to deliver it. It will fail, as a business enterprise,
and some courier using Uber drivers will deliver your hamburger and
that Christmas card.
Some things in society, are going out of touch. Too expensive.
Public transit for one. Letter mail and even parcel mail for another.
The parcel mail here, is every bit as expensive as a courier would be,
and I just don't like the optics of the trend. It can't get cheaper,
and the Post Offices can't open up enough Lemonade Stands to compensate
for their operating costs. Perhaps they can offer shoe shines.
Or re-sole your shoes for you.
Paul wrote:quite separate, the only place that money changes hands is for possible rental income arising from the part of the shop used as the PO and the income paid to the sub post-master for the work involved in running the PO.
[snip]
The reason Post Offices must "stay the course", is they need income, badly. >> You can't chuck away anything that makes money. You could for
example, have a lemonade stand at the PO, just so they can make
a bit of cash on the side.
In the UK the reality is that small POs exist within shops, the idea being that on their own they would never have been viable, but POs were expected to bring in enough extra custom to make the small shop a sensible proposition. The financial side is
completely pointless) administrative separation of RMG and the PO in 2012.If they stop doing things, just handling letter mail is never going to
work. I stand by my contention, that a letter that costs $1 today to
mail, is going to cost $40 ten years from now, simply because the PO
won't be around to deliver it. It will fail, as a business enterprise,
and some courier using Uber drivers will deliver your hamburger and
that Christmas card.
In the UK the letter mail is handled completely by Royal Mail Group (RMG) - which is not the same thing as the Post Office. RMG may lease space from the PO for sorting and delivery purposes - and in the past such space was part of the PO - until the (
In the UK RMG has the USO (Universal Service Obligation) - unlike any of the competing enterprises - so it will of course be expensive just as you suggest. If the government wishes to force the USO on RMG in the future I imagine it will have tofinance it. Government may decide that the USO is no longer needed because everything can be done over the internet.
reasonable time is simply re-supplied. So the losses in delivery must be quite significant. Perhaps explains why Amazon is so expensive!Some things in society, are going out of touch. Too expensive.
Public transit for one. Letter mail and even parcel mail for another.
The parcel mail here, is every bit as expensive as a courier would be,
and I just don't like the optics of the trend. It can't get cheaper,
and the Post Offices can't open up enough Lemonade Stands to compensate
for their operating costs. Perhaps they can offer shoe shines.
Or re-sole your shoes for you.
Amazon requires the parcel delivery facility, and it's evident that they have their own staff and vehicles for this, which can't be efficient. There's no such thng as "signed-for" deliveries and in my experience anything that is not delivered in a
But in a city at least, if you are registering a deed of sale,
chances are a potable water certificate is part of it. There is an
indication there, that the government does not want properties
to change hands, where the previous owner was dishonest about
the water status, and the new owner is left "high and dry".
It's a kind of public health issue, as someone living without
water, is likely to end up disease-ridden (cholera, dysentery,
and so on).
Paul
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 508 |
| Nodes: | 16 (0 / 16) |
| Uptime: | 238:44:14 |
| Calls: | 9,985 |
| Calls today: | 3 |
| Files: | 13,836 |
| Messages: | 6,358,296 |