I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

Windows 95/98/ME:

Press F8: Restart your computer and repeatedly press the F8 key
right before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the boot menu.

Windows 2000:

Press F8: Similar to Windows 95/98/ME, restart your computer and
press F8 before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Pick Safe Mode from the boot options.

Windows XP:

Press F8: Restart and press F8 key before the Windows logo shows up.

Select Safe Mode: Navigate to and select Safe Mode from the Advanced Options menu.

Windows Vista and Windows 7:

Press F8: Restart your computer, and before the Windows logo
appears, press F8.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the Advanced Boot Options menu.

Windows 8 and 8.1:

Shift + Restart:

Open the Charm Bar with Win + C.

Click on Settings > Power while holding the Shift key, and
select Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > Update & Security > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above.

System Configuration:

Press Win + R, type msconfig, and press Enter.

Go to the Boot tab and check Safe boot.

Click Apply and then OK.

Restart your computer.

Windows 11:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > System > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above. ______________________________________________________________________________

Hmmm....

--
John C.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I wrote:

I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

Windows 95/98/ME:

Press F8: Restart your computer and repeatedly press the F8 key
right before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the boot menu.

Windows 2000:

Press F8: Similar to Windows 95/98/ME, restart your computer and
press F8 before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Pick Safe Mode from the boot options.

Windows XP:

Press F8: Restart and press F8 key before the Windows logo shows up.

Select Safe Mode: Navigate to and select Safe Mode from the Advanced Options menu.

Windows Vista and Windows 7:

Press F8: Restart your computer, and before the Windows logo
appears, press F8.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the Advanced Boot Options menu.

Windows 8 and 8.1:

Shift + Restart:

Open the Charm Bar with Win + C.

Click on Settings > Power while holding the Shift key, and
select Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > Update & Security > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above.

System Configuration:

Press Win + R, type msconfig, and press Enter.

Go to the Boot tab and check Safe boot.

Click Apply and then OK.

Restart your computer.

Windows 11:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > System > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above. ______________________________________________________________________________

Hmmm....

And by the way, I want to add that it's idiocy like this that's slowly
choking off the world of computing for the general public. Many of my
friends and relatives no longer use their computers and several have
even gotten rid of them. "I just use my cell phone for what I need" is a refrain I commonly hear.

Microsoft has completely lost touch with the fact that there's only so
much complexity that their end users will tolerate.

I myself, routinely have been spending well over an hour every morning
simply dealing with Windows 10 issues and attempting to make sense of
the OS. I'm rapidly nearing the end of that road.

IMO, the best way to use computers these days is to have two of them:
-an air-gapped one running, say, Windows 7, main data storage (screw th "cloud") and all the programs a person likes. This one is for actually
getting things done.

-one with only absolutely necessary programs, as little data stored on
it as possible and running an updated current version of Windows OR an
Apple computer. This one would be for connecting to the internet and
getting your email.

Fuck Microsoft. They're a pack of assholes.

--
John C.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 07:51:24 -0600, John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

Windows 95/98/ME:

Press F8: Restart your computer and repeatedly press the F8 key
right before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the boot menu.

Windows 2000:

Press F8: Similar to Windows 95/98/ME, restart your computer and
press F8 before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Pick Safe Mode from the boot options.

Windows XP:

Press F8: Restart and press F8 key before the Windows logo shows up.

Select Safe Mode: Navigate to and select Safe Mode from the Advanced Options menu.

Windows Vista and Windows 7:

Press F8: Restart your computer, and before the Windows logo
appears, press F8.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the Advanced Boot Options menu.

Windows 8 and 8.1:

Shift + Restart:

Open the Charm Bar with Win + C.

Click on Settings > Power while holding the Shift key, and
select Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > Update & Security > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above.

System Configuration:

Press Win + R, type msconfig, and press Enter.

Go to the Boot tab and check Safe boot.

Click Apply and then OK.

Restart your computer.

Windows 11:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > System > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above. ______________________________________________________________________________

Hmmm....

This how I do it.
To enable Safe Mode, I use a batch file with these 2 lines.

bcdedit /set {default} safeboot minimal
shutdown /r /t 0

To disable Safe Mode and return to normal boot, I use a batch file with these 2 lines.

bcdedit /deletevalue {default} safeboot
shutdown /r /t 0

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 08:16:38 -0600, John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/12 06:06 AM, Allan Higdon wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 07:51:24 -0600, John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

Windows 95/98/ME:

Press F8: Restart your computer and repeatedly press the F8 key
right before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the boot menu.

Windows 2000:

Press F8: Similar to Windows 95/98/ME, restart your computer and
press F8 before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Pick Safe Mode from the boot options.

Windows XP:

Press F8: Restart and press F8 key before the Windows logo shows up. >>>
Select Safe Mode: Navigate to and select Safe Mode from the Advanced >>> Options menu.

Windows Vista and Windows 7:

Press F8: Restart your computer, and before the Windows logo
appears, press F8.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the Advanced Boot Options
menu.

Windows 8 and 8.1:

Shift + Restart:

Open the Charm Bar with Win + C.

Click on Settings > Power while holding the Shift key, and
select Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode >>> with Networking.

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode >>> with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > Update & Security > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above.

System Configuration:

Press Win + R, type msconfig, and press Enter.

Go to the Boot tab and check Safe boot.

Click Apply and then OK.

Restart your computer.

Windows 11:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode >>> with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > System > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above.
______________________________________________________________________________

Hmmm....

This how I do it.
To enable Safe Mode, I use a batch file with these 2 lines.

bcdedit /set {default} safeboot minimal
shutdown /r /t 0

To disable Safe Mode and return to normal boot, I use a batch file with
these 2 lines.

bcdedit /deletevalue {default} safeboot
shutdown /r /t 0

Thanks for replying, Allan, but what about trying to get into Safe Mode
from a cold boot?

According to https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-recovery-environment-0eb14733-6301-41cb-8d26-06a12b42770b

Select "Automatic Repair"

"If Windows fails to start correctly multiple times, it will automatically enter Windows RE. This can happen if there are issues with the boot process or if the system detects a problem that prevents Windows from starting."

The "Startup Settings" option allows booting into Safe Mode.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/02/12 06:06 AM, Allan Higdon wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 07:51:24 -0600, John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

Windows 95/98/ME:

    Press F8: Restart your computer and repeatedly press the F8 key
right before the Windows logo appears.

    Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the boot menu.

Windows 2000:

    Press F8: Similar to Windows 95/98/ME, restart your computer and
press F8 before the Windows logo appears.

    Select Safe Mode: Pick Safe Mode from the boot options.

Windows XP:

    Press F8: Restart and press F8 key before the Windows logo shows up. >>
    Select Safe Mode: Navigate to and select Safe Mode from the Advanced >> Options menu.

Windows Vista and Windows 7:

    Press F8: Restart your computer, and before the Windows logo
appears, press F8.

    Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the Advanced Boot Options
menu.

Windows 8 and 8.1:

    Shift + Restart:

        Open the Charm Bar with Win + C.

        Click on Settings > Power while holding the Shift key, and
select Restart.

        Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

        Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Windows 10:

    Shift + Restart:

        On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

        Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

        Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

    Settings:

        Go to Settings > Update & Security > Recovery.

        Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

        Follow the same steps as above.

    System Configuration:

        Press Win + R, type msconfig, and press Enter.

        Go to the Boot tab and check Safe boot.

        Click Apply and then OK.

        Restart your computer.

Windows 11:

    Shift + Restart:

        On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

        Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

        Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

    Settings:

        Go to Settings > System > Recovery.

        Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

        Follow the same steps as above.
______________________________________________________________________________

Hmmm....

This how I do it.
To enable Safe Mode, I use a batch file with these 2 lines.

bcdedit /set {default} safeboot minimal
shutdown /r /t 0

To disable Safe Mode and return to normal boot, I use a batch file with
these 2 lines.

bcdedit /deletevalue {default} safeboot
shutdown /r /t 0

Thanks for replying, Allan, but what about trying to get into Safe Mode
from a cold boot?

--
John C.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

Windows 95/98/ME:

Press F8: Restart your computer and repeatedly press the F8 key
right before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the boot menu.

Windows 2000:

Press F8: Similar to Windows 95/98/ME, restart your computer and
press F8 before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Pick Safe Mode from the boot options.

Windows XP:

Press F8: Restart and press F8 key before the Windows logo shows up.

Select Safe Mode: Navigate to and select Safe Mode from the Advanced Options menu.

Windows Vista and Windows 7:

Press F8: Restart your computer, and before the Windows logo
appears, press F8.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the Advanced Boot Options menu.

Windows 8 and 8.1:

Shift + Restart:

Open the Charm Bar with Win + C.

Click on Settings > Power while holding the Shift key, and
select Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > Update & Security > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above.

System Configuration:

Press Win + R, type msconfig, and press Enter.

Go to the Boot tab and check Safe boot.

Click Apply and then OK.

Restart your computer.

Windows 11:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > System > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above. ______________________________________________________________________________

Hmmm....

How to Start Windows 10 in Safe Mode https://www.minitool.com/data-recovery/how-to-start-windows-10-in-safe-mode-009.html
#4 - Start Windows 10 in Safe Mode While Bootong Through the F8 Key

According to that article, #4 method has you use bcdedit (the boot table editor) to modify the setup to allow repeatedly hitting F8 on cold boot
to get the recovery menu.

The criteria is you repeatedly hit F8 *before* the Windows boot menu
appears (assuming you have more than one boot entry from which you can
select). However, you'll probably need to disable Fast Startup to
prevent sliding past this dialog so fast that you'll never see it.
Besides, Fast Startup causes problems with some drivers, hardware incompatibility (often due to invalid driver state), and often reduces stability. Plus, while it makes shorter the bootup time, it makes
longer the shutdown time; however, while users sit at the computer
waiting for bootup, they often shutdown, and leave, without waiting.
Fast Startup is a hybrid hibernate, so you don't get a true cold boot.

Win10/11 How to disable Fast Startup https://www.asus.com/us/support/faq/1045548/

Why you SHOULD disable fast startup on your computers! https://www.windowscentral.com/how-disable-windows-10-fast-startup

The BCD (Boot Configuration Data) is a binary database that replaced the
old boot.ini text file you could edit with a text editor even if Windows
didn't boot, but then malware could easily modify it, too.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/manufacture/desktop/bcdedit-command-line-options

Allan's suggestion assumes you can successfully load Windows to then run
his batch files to follow with another [re]boot. Presumably Minitool's
#4 method changes the BCD setup to restore the legacy F8 method, so you
don't have to successfully boot into Windows 10 to then reboot into Safe
Mode. You cold boot once, not twice (cold boot and warm boot).

No idea if the Minitool tweaks works for Windows 11. The article is for Windows 10.

One of the first tweaks I perform after installing Windows 10 is to
disable Fast Startup. While I already have Fast Startup disabled on my
Win10 setup, I'll wait to see if the #4 method above works to let you
cold boot into Safe Mode using the F8 key. If you try it, please reply
if it worked for you, or not. I'm interested since if it works then
I'll use it, too.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 12:44:28 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

One of the first tweaks I perform after installing Windows 10 is to
disable Fast Startup. While I already have Fast Startup disabled on my
Win10 setup, I'll wait to see if the #4 method above works to let you
cold boot into Safe Mode using the F8 key. If you try it, please reply
if it worked for you, or not. I'm interested since if it works then
I'll use it, too.

Since I always disable Hibernation, you had me wondering about the Fast Startup setting.

"If you disable hibernate, fast startup will also get disabled." https://www.tenforums.com/general-support/178284-hibernation-still-taking-up-space-after-disabling-post2207770.html?s=c45932903b2b603fd2c57f6762bb2b48#post2207770

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/12/25 09:06 AM, Allan Higdon wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 07:51:24 -0600, John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

Windows 95/98/ME:

    Press F8: Restart your computer and repeatedly press the F8 key
right before the Windows logo appears.

    Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the boot menu.

Windows 2000:

    Press F8: Similar to Windows 95/98/ME, restart your computer and
press F8 before the Windows logo appears.

    Select Safe Mode: Pick Safe Mode from the boot options.

Windows XP:

    Press F8: Restart and press F8 key before the Windows logo shows up. >>
    Select Safe Mode: Navigate to and select Safe Mode from the Advanced >> Options menu.

Windows Vista and Windows 7:

    Press F8: Restart your computer, and before the Windows logo
appears, press F8.

    Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the Advanced Boot Options menu.

Windows 8 and 8.1:

    Shift + Restart:

        Open the Charm Bar with Win + C.

        Click on Settings > Power while holding the Shift key, and
select Restart.

        Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

        Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Windows 10:

    Shift + Restart:

        On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

        Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

        Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

    Settings:

        Go to Settings > Update & Security > Recovery.

        Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

        Follow the same steps as above.

    System Configuration:

        Press Win + R, type msconfig, and press Enter.

        Go to the Boot tab and check Safe boot.

        Click Apply and then OK.

        Restart your computer.

Windows 11:

    Shift + Restart:

        On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

        Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

        Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

    Settings:

        Go to Settings > System > Recovery.

        Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

        Follow the same steps as above.
______________________________________________________________________________

Hmmm....

This how I do it.
To enable Safe Mode, I use a batch file with these 2 lines.

bcdedit /set {default} safeboot minimal
shutdown /r /t 0

To disable Safe Mode and return to normal boot, I use a batch file with these 2 lines.

bcdedit /deletevalue {default} safeboot
shutdown /r /t 0

Great idea if you only have one boot option, but I have 4. Which become default when you
delete the safeboot?

--
Linux Mint 22.1, Cinnamon 6.4.6, Kernel 6.8.0-53-generic
Thunderbird 128.7.0esr, Mozilla Firefox 134.0.2
Alan K.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 2/12/2025 8:51 AM, John C. wrote:

I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

...

Windows 11:

Shift + Restart:

...

Hmmm....

Is that really necessary ?

Administrator window (Command Prompt only):

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True

That changes the menu type from "tile" to "text".

In addition, in text mode, an F8 option is offered.
You just press F8 then, and you are in Safe Mode menu.

I turn off hibernation, to reduce the complexity of using Windows.
This eliminated Fast Boot, and having problems editing things later,
in an offline mode. For example, if a disk is running Tiles and
has no F8, I can use the Troubleshooting part of the installer DVD,
and the command prompt in there will allow me to add:

bcdedit /store C:\boot\BCD /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True # assumes there is a C:\boot\BCD file

and then the next boot of the hard drive I just edited,
I get the text menu with the F8 option offered on the screen.

[Picture] Now the menu includes an F8 at startup, fallthru after 30 seconds

https://i.postimg.cc/KYsbFCsC/display-boot-menu-windows-11.gif

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Yep. It's annoying. I am trying to get away from Windows to Linux. macOS
is OK, but Apple also is doing crazy stuff these days. :(


John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

Windows 95/98/ME:

Press F8: Restart your computer and repeatedly press the F8 key
right before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the boot menu.

Windows 2000:

Press F8: Similar to Windows 95/98/ME, restart your computer and
press F8 before the Windows logo appears.

Select Safe Mode: Pick Safe Mode from the boot options.

Windows XP:

Press F8: Restart and press F8 key before the Windows logo shows up.

Select Safe Mode: Navigate to and select Safe Mode from the Advanced Options menu.

Windows Vista and Windows 7:

Press F8: Restart your computer, and before the Windows logo
appears, press F8.

Select Safe Mode: Choose Safe Mode from the Advanced Boot Options menu.

Windows 8 and 8.1:

Shift + Restart:

Open the Charm Bar with Win + C.

Click on Settings > Power while holding the Shift key, and
select Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > Update & Security > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above.

System Configuration:

Press Win + R, type msconfig, and press Enter.

Go to the Boot tab and check Safe boot.

Click Apply and then OK.

Restart your computer.

Windows 11:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

Settings:

Go to Settings > System > Recovery.

Under Advanced startup, click Restart now.

Follow the same steps as above. ______________________________________________________________________________

Hmmm....

--
"We love because he first loved us." --1 John 4:19. :) Incoming heavy rain storm 2nite on (not Green) Lantern Day. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 13/02/2025 03:28, Ant wrote:

Yep. It's annoying. I am trying to get away from Windows to Linux. macOS
is OK, but Apple also is doing crazy stuff these days. :(

This is wonderful. Linux has a very easy way to get into safe mode. The
rest of the time you can watch porn videos and Microsoft won't even know
what the heck you are doing on Linux.

Why do you have to try? Is it difficult to get away from Windows? John C
might have a solution for you. He hates Indians and Chinese and I am not
saying he is racist bigot.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 2/12/2025 10:28 PM, Ant wrote:

Yep. It's annoying. I am trying to get away from Windows to Linux. macOS
is OK, but Apple also is doing crazy stuff these days. :(

What does "trying to get away" mean exactly ?

The web pages tell me you need to shrink C: a bit, and the
space made available, can be used for Linux. Then,
you dual boot. Install Windows first, install Linux second,
for least boot-maintenance.

It's not absolutely essential that a computer be opened
up to prepare for a Linux dual boot.

You can also use virtual machines to run OSes. I have two, ready
to run, on my D: drive right now. That does not require opening
a computer either. It helps to have enough RAM for the number
of OSes you plan on running.

Make a backup before you do your install, some of our friends
here do not recognize what "danger" is, or how to insulate
against "dangerous" activity. While installing Linux software isn't
generally dangerous, I've lost the content of two disks
along the way. For example, before installing a Debian, you
*absolutely* do a backup. The other Linuxes to date, they have
been generally reasonable from a policy perspective. Some
of the Linux installers do things in the wrong order, don't
make the right options available during an install and so on.
You can study the losers, in your VM setup first :-) That's one
of the general rules I have "if you can't behave yourself
in my VM, you don't get to live on my disk drive". I've had
just one Linux OS which crashed on boot in the VM test
(which makes the OS a "total failure" and a waste-of-bytes).

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 25/02/12 04:16 PM, Paul wrote:

On Wed, 2/12/2025 8:51 AM, John C. wrote:

I decided that it would be a good idea to know how to do this, so I
looked it up and... my God... what an absolute clusterfuck.

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.
This is a history (according to CoPilot) of the process:

...

Windows 11:

Shift + Restart:

...

Hmmm....

Is that really necessary ?

Administrator window (Command Prompt only):

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True

That changes the menu type from "tile" to "text".

In addition, in text mode, an F8 option is offered.
You just press F8 then, and you are in Safe Mode menu.

I turn off hibernation, to reduce the complexity of using Windows.
This eliminated Fast Boot, and having problems editing things later,
in an offline mode. For example, if a disk is running Tiles and
has no F8, I can use the Troubleshooting part of the installer DVD,
and the command prompt in there will allow me to add:

bcdedit /store C:\boot\BCD /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True # assumes there is a C:\boot\BCD file

and then the next boot of the hard drive I just edited,
I get the text menu with the F8 option offered on the screen.

[Picture] Now the menu includes an F8 at startup, fallthru after 30 seconds

https://i.postimg.cc/KYsbFCsC/display-boot-menu-windows-11.gif

Thanks, Paul. Yeah, I always turn of hibernation too. Even on laptops.

--
John C.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Uncle Sam trolled:

Ant wrote:

Yep. It's annoying. I am trying to get away from Windows to Linux. macOS
is OK, but Apple also is doing crazy stuff these days. :(

This is wonderful. Linux has a very easy way to get into safe mode. The
rest of the time you can watch porn videos and Microsoft won't even know
what the heck you are doing on Linux.

Why do you have to try? Is it difficult to get away from Windows? John C might have a solution for you. He hates Indians and Chinese and I am not saying he is racist bigot.

Sure you're not. So... playing the "racism" card, eh?

1. how is it that you think that all people from India are the same race?
2. how is it that you think that all people from China are the same race?

If anything, I'm guilty of "countryism".

Otherwise, all I've said is:
1. India has taken over Microsoft. And anybody can easily prove it.
2. Software from the PRC isn't to be trusted because the government of
that country has too many loaded agendas.

Please elaborate, IN DETAIL, how either of those two statements are
"racist" or "bigoted".

And just so you know, I also believe that a lot of the software
originating in the United States isn't to be trusted. For example: the
Tor browser, which I personally believe is a tool of the NSA.

--
John C.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

Gone are the simple days of pressing F8 while starting your computer.

Did you try either Paul's suggestion:

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True

or mine from the Minitool article, method #4:

bcdedit /set {default} bootmenupolicy legacy

to see if you got the F8 boot-time menu?

Neither displaybootmenu or bootmenupolicy arguments are mentioned in Microsoft's article on bcdedit at:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/manufacture/desktop/bcdedit-command-line-options

but maybe they are undocumented arguments, or you have to drill down
using "set /? <arg>" to get to the lower options. The:

bcdedit /?

command shows the command-line syntax for bcdedit. Since both {bootmgr}
and {default} are the ID args in the above commands, I checked which
where listed using:

bcdedit /? ID

Both the {default} and {bootmgr} identifiers in the above commands are
listed. Paul's suggestion of modifying the {bootmgr} property in the
BCD table probably applies no matter which BCD entry is selected.
Minitool's suggestion of modifying the {default} entry might only apply
when the default boot entry is selected versus.

bcdedit /? TYPES {bootmgr}

shows the displaybootmenu for a display attribute on the {bootmgr}
object, so Paul's suggestion looks valid.

I didn't drill through all the sublevels of help in bcdedit to find what options could be set on the {default} object. However, on some web
searching, I'm wondering if True or Yes should be used in Paul's
suggestion:

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True
or
bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu yes

Yes shows the boot menu when the computer starts. No hides the boot
manager on startup.

bcdedit /? types bootmgr

says the displaybootmenu property is a Boolean which, to me, means you
use a 0 or 1 (false or true), or a False or True value, but, I suppose,
No and Yes would also work for False and True. If you run without args:

bcdedit

the BCD config data is listed. For me, none of them show the
displaybootmenu option; however, not all properties are listed, so the
disabled (False) properties are probably not listed in the output.
While msconfig's Boot tab shows some options per boot entry, it has
never shown everything that bcdedit can manage.

There are some GUI editors as an alternative to bcdedit. Visual BCD is
one, but its home page of boyans.net looks to be abandoned. Its domain registration expired in Nov 2029, but the site is nonfunctional. You
can get it from:

https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/visual_bcd_editor.html

but that is dated 14 years ago. EasyBCD has been updated more recently
(2018), but is a freemium product (i.e., crippled unless you pay). It's
web site is still active at:

https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/

The free version is for personal-use only, and registerware. I didn't
find a comparison page to show what, if any, features might be missing
in the free version, or if it's just a licensing issue. I have used
EasyBCD in the past, but too long ago to remember, and still have it in
my lists of downloads (version 2.3 c.2015, but it's now at 2.4 c.2018).
Alas, the screenshots they omit is for the Edit Boot Menu and Advanced
Settings groups, so I cannot tell how well in-depth they cover all the
settings available with bcdedit.

I looked at several Youtube videos on EasyBCD, but didn't any that
delves into Advanced Settings.

https://neosmart.net/wiki/easybcd/basics/advanced-settings/

That doesn't mention the displaybootmenu option. Under Edit Boot Menu
(where you select a boot entry to edit), there is a "Skip the boot menu" option, but I don't know that is the same as the displaybootmenu option.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I just found:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22455-enable-disable-f8-advanced-boot-options-windows-10-a.html

which mentions using Paul's bcdedit command line specifying the bootmgr
object, but uses yes instead of True to enable the boot-time menu. It
also shows using the bcdedit command line specifying the default object
that the Minitool article suggested.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Just to note, Windows' safe mode is not a cure-all state. It has
limitations, like:

- Cannot install drivers, or anything at ring 0.
- Loads with only essential drivers and services (i.e., what Microsoft
deems essential). Only core drivers and system files are loaded.
- No network connectivity, by default.
- Can't run most applications. You can run Windows-bundled programs,
but not externally installed programs.
- Cannot install new programs in safe mode, but you can uninstall.
- Basic user interface. Advanced features and visual elements are
missing.
- Malware can still function in safe mode, but not if for an infected
externally installed app since those don't run in safe mode (so an
infected app can't run, but will when you resume normal startup mode).
OS vulnerabilities still exist in safe mode.

It's for a restricted version of the OS to help with troubleshooting,
but without loading the drivers or software that may be potentially
causing problems. Safe mode can help, but it is not a comprehensive
solution, and when you reboot into normal mode the problems can
reappear.

Safe mode hasn't helped me much. There were times I installed software
that caused Windows to hang or crash on every boot. I could boot into
Safe Mode, and then reboot into normal mode to correct the problem. If
that didn't work, I'd boot into Safe Mode to elect to restore old good configuration data (the registry stores this under HKLM\ControlSetxxx,
where xxx is a number, and CurrentControlSet reflects whichever is the
current one). If the registry is corrupted, you may not have old
configs to restore back to. If the boot manager is corrupt or missing,
you can't load an OS or its boot menu.

Instead I rely on image backups: monthly full, weekly differential,
daily incremental. These are scheduled, and cover all partitions for
the OS. Relying on humans to do backups means they don't get done, are
too far apart (too much lost in a restore), or not saved at the proper
moment. Humans are unreliable. When there is a problem that I cannot
correct within the existing load of the OS, yep, time to restore from an
image backup which can run as a BCD entry (often a .dat file containing
WinPE), or booted from a CD or USB drive. And, NO, System Restore
snapshots are not a suitable substitute for image backups. I turn off
System Restore as it is unreliable and very incomplete. I don't want to
mend the OS. I want to restore it to a prior state. Mending often
fails. Get a new pair of socks just like you ones you had before they
got damaged, or mend them and suffer with walking on the mend.

I wouldn't rely on System Restore which disable it since image backups
are far more reliable. I don't rely on Safe Mode, but it has helped,
like maybe twice in 4 years. Those are stopgap mends that might work,
are simple to do, and quick. My image backups get me backup to the same
state when the setup was working, but take a little longer. In fact,
before I install any software, or do Windows updates, I save an image
backup (incremental). Instead of uninstalling the software (where I
often have to perform remnant registry and file cleanup), or using
system restore snapshots (to mend the OS, but doesn't touch installed
apps), I restore from the image backups, and, poof, I'm back to the
prior state before any of those changes. Restoring from an incremental
image takes about 5 minutes -- less time than rebooting into Safe Mode, troubleshooting, and rebooting into normal mode.

System Restore and Safe Mode are there to compensate for users that
don't schedule image backups (at a granularity of what to lose between
the backups, so shorter intervals means less loss on restore, but more
backups to save). Don't start me on the crappy MS Backup program,
unless you're the type that thinks MS Paint is the end-all app versus a
far more robust 3rd-party app. Paint, Notepad, System Restore, Safe
Mode are uber-basic tools. There are much better solutions.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/12 06:06 AM, Allan Higdon wrote:

[...]

This how I do it.
To enable Safe Mode, I use a batch file with these 2 lines.

bcdedit /set {default} safeboot minimal
shutdown /r /t 0

To disable Safe Mode and return to normal boot, I use a batch file with these 2 lines.

bcdedit /deletevalue {default} safeboot
shutdown /r /t 0

Thanks for replying, Allan, but what about trying to get into Safe Mode
from a cold boot?

Without any preparation, you can do:

Cold boot while pressing the get-into-BIOS key (in my case, for HP
computers, the 'esc' key). This will give a BIOS Startup Menu which has
several choices, probably including 'F11 System Recovery' (or similar
wording), selecting that, will bring you in the UEFI part of your
computer, which gives the same as 'Navigate to Troubleshoot' in:

<you>

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

</you>

I.e. in 'old'(er) computers it was simple because they only had the
BIOS, but they had limited functionality. In 'new'(er) computers, it's
more complicated, because the UEFI (and its (sort-of) legacy BIOS) has
much, much more functionality.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/02/16 06:02 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/12 06:06 AM, Allan Higdon wrote:

[...]

This how I do it.
To enable Safe Mode, I use a batch file with these 2 lines.

bcdedit /set {default} safeboot minimal
shutdown /r /t 0

To disable Safe Mode and return to normal boot, I use a batch file with
these 2 lines.

bcdedit /deletevalue {default} safeboot
shutdown /r /t 0

Thanks for replying, Allan, but what about trying to get into Safe Mode
from a cold boot?

Without any preparation, you can do:

Cold boot while pressing the get-into-BIOS key (in my case, for HP computers, the 'esc' key). This will give a BIOS Startup Menu which has several choices, probably including 'F11 System Recovery' (or similar wording), selecting that, will bring you in the UEFI part of your
computer, which gives the same as 'Navigate to Troubleshoot' in:

<you>

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

</you>

I.e. in 'old'(er) computers it was simple because they only had the
BIOS, but they had limited functionality. In 'new'(er) computers, it's
more complicated, because the UEFI (and its (sort-of) legacy BIOS) has
much, much more functionality.

Thanks for this info, Frank. However, my desktop dates back to *ahem*
*cough* about 2010. No UEFI.

--
John C.

Take back Microsoft from India.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/02/15 07:40 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

Just to note, Windows' safe mode is not a cure-all state. It has limitations, like:

- Cannot install drivers, or anything at ring 0.
- Loads with only essential drivers and services (i.e., what Microsoft
deems essential). Only core drivers and system files are loaded.
- No network connectivity, by default.
- Can't run most applications. You can run Windows-bundled programs,
but not externally installed programs.
- Cannot install new programs in safe mode, but you can uninstall.
- Basic user interface. Advanced features and visual elements are
missing.
- Malware can still function in safe mode, but not if for an infected
externally installed app since those don't run in safe mode (so an
infected app can't run, but will when you resume normal startup mode).
OS vulnerabilities still exist in safe mode.

It's for a restricted version of the OS to help with troubleshooting,
but without loading the drivers or software that may be potentially
causing problems. Safe mode can help, but it is not a comprehensive solution, and when you reboot into normal mode the problems can
reappear.

Safe mode hasn't helped me much. There were times I installed software
that caused Windows to hang or crash on every boot. I could boot into
Safe Mode, and then reboot into normal mode to correct the problem. If
that didn't work, I'd boot into Safe Mode to elect to restore old good configuration data (the registry stores this under HKLM\ControlSetxxx,
where xxx is a number, and CurrentControlSet reflects whichever is the current one). If the registry is corrupted, you may not have old
configs to restore back to. If the boot manager is corrupt or missing,
you can't load an OS or its boot menu.

Instead I rely on image backups: monthly full, weekly differential,
daily incremental. These are scheduled, and cover all partitions for
the OS. Relying on humans to do backups means they don't get done, are
too far apart (too much lost in a restore), or not saved at the proper moment. Humans are unreliable. When there is a problem that I cannot correct within the existing load of the OS, yep, time to restore from an image backup which can run as a BCD entry (often a .dat file containing WinPE), or booted from a CD or USB drive. And, NO, System Restore
snapshots are not a suitable substitute for image backups. I turn off
System Restore as it is unreliable and very incomplete. I don't want to
mend the OS. I want to restore it to a prior state. Mending often
fails. Get a new pair of socks just like you ones you had before they
got damaged, or mend them and suffer with walking on the mend.

I wouldn't rely on System Restore which disable it since image backups
are far more reliable. I don't rely on Safe Mode, but it has helped,
like maybe twice in 4 years. Those are stopgap mends that might work,
are simple to do, and quick. My image backups get me backup to the same state when the setup was working, but take a little longer. In fact,
before I install any software, or do Windows updates, I save an image
backup (incremental). Instead of uninstalling the software (where I
often have to perform remnant registry and file cleanup), or using
system restore snapshots (to mend the OS, but doesn't touch installed
apps), I restore from the image backups, and, poof, I'm back to the
prior state before any of those changes. Restoring from an incremental
image takes about 5 minutes -- less time than rebooting into Safe Mode, troubleshooting, and rebooting into normal mode.

System Restore and Safe Mode are there to compensate for users that
don't schedule image backups (at a granularity of what to lose between
the backups, so shorter intervals means less loss on restore, but more backups to save). Don't start me on the crappy MS Backup program,
unless you're the type that thinks MS Paint is the end-all app versus a
far more robust 3rd-party app. Paint, Notepad, System Restore, Safe
Mode are uber-basic tools. There are much better solutions.

It turned out that what was causing my problem was a data cable to one
of my internal hard drives that wasn't pushed all the way in. I
unplugged all my drives by the SSD when I reinstalled W10 Pro, but when
I plugged the drives all back in after the reinstall, I must not have
pushed that cable all the way in. Regardless, the problem is fixed now.

--
John C.

Take back Microsoft from India.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 06:02 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[...]

Thanks for this info, Frank. However, my desktop dates back to *ahem*
*cough* about 2010. No UEFI.

Are you sure that your desktop doesn't have UEFI? UEFI started in 2005
and by 2007 already had its third spec (version 2.0). UEFI can be quite 'invisible if you don't know it's there and don't know how to enter it.

An easy way to tell one or the other is just try the recipe you
posted:

<you>

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

</you>

If where it says 'Navigate to Troubleshoot' you get a screen labeled
'Choose an option' which includes the mentioned 'Troubleshoot' option,
you *do* have UEFI.

Alternatively, you can use Computer Management -> Storage -> Disk
Management. If that lists an 'EFI' partition, you have UEFI.

Even simpler if you have Macrium Reflect, that will say '[EUFI]' on
the top bar.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 08:56:03 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

I just found:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22455-enable-disable-f8-advanced-boot-options-windows-10-a.html

which mentions using Paul's bcdedit command line specifying the bootmgr object, but uses yes instead of True to enable the boot-time menu. It
also shows using the bcdedit command line specifying the default object
that the Minitool article suggested.

I tried using "yes" and "True", but neither worked for me.
I press F8 repeatedly, but all I see on bootup is "Press ESC for the Startup Menu".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

It turned out that what was causing my problem was a data cable to one
of my internal hard drives that wasn't pushed all the way in. I
unplugged all my drives by the SSD when I reinstalled W10 Pro, but when
I plugged the drives all back in after the reinstall, I must not have
pushed that cable all the way in. Regardless, the problem is fixed now.

I take it that the SSD is not your boot drive. If an HDD was the boot
drive, but had its cabling incomplete, I wouldn't think the problem was
not having F8 to get into the boot menu, but instead a message from the
BIOS that boot drive was not found.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Earlier today, I wrote:

John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 06:02 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[...]

Thanks for this info, Frank. However, my desktop dates back to *ahem* *cough* about 2010. No UEFI.

Are you sure that your desktop doesn't have UEFI? UEFI started in 2005
and by 2007 already had its third spec (version 2.0). UEFI can be quite 'invisible if you don't know it's there and don't know how to enter it.

An easy way to tell one or the other is just try the recipe you
posted:

<you>

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
with Networking.

</you>

If where it says 'Navigate to Troubleshoot' you get a screen labeled 'Choose an option' which includes the mentioned 'Troubleshoot' option,
you *do* have UEFI.

Alternatively, you can use Computer Management -> Storage -> Disk Management. If that lists an 'EFI' partition, you have UEFI.

Even simpler if you have Macrium Reflect, that will say '[EUFI]' on
the top bar.

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Allan Higdon <allanh@vivaldi.net> wrote:

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

I just found:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22455-enable-disable-f8-advanced-boot-options-windows-10-a.html

which mentions using Paul's bcdedit command line specifying the
bootmgr object, but uses yes instead of True to enable the boot-time
menu. It also shows using the bcdedit command line specifying the
default object that the Minitool article suggested.

I tried using "yes" and "True", but neither worked for me.
I press F8 repeatedly, but all I see on bootup is "Press ESC for the Startup Menu".

Which bcdedit command did you use? Presumably since you mention yes or
True as attribute values, you used:

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True
bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu Yes

Did you then try the other suggestion?

bcdedit /set {default} bootmenupolicy legacy

After using one of those, run bcdedit (no arguments) to list the
configs. For the first command (displaybootmenu), you should see one of
the boot entries list displaybootmenu. Since the command specifies the {bootmgr} config entry, bcdedit should show:

Windows Boot Manager
--------------------
identifier {bootmgr}
device partition=\Device\HarddiskVolume4
path \EFI\MICROSOFT\BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI
description Windows Boot Manager
locale en-US
inherit {globalsettings}
default {current}
resumeobject {93db0b77-b7b0-11e9-8457-c422263ccb27}
displayorder {current}
{79ec5fd5-9799-11ee-91c7-48f17fd1afaa} toolsdisplayorder {memdiag}
timeout 10
displaybootmenu Yes

The other parameters may be different for you, but after using bcdedit
to enable the displaybootmenu attribute then it should show up. Notice
my timeout (to show the boot menu) is 10 seconds before the bootmgr
selects the active (default) boot config. Make sure your timeout is set
to something that lets you see the boot menu, so it doesn't just flash
past too quickly to see or read. You can change the timeout with:

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} timeout 30

Mine is 10 seconds (which is actually 7 seconds when measured). Use
whatever timetout you like for how long you want the boot menu to stay
on the screen before it automatically selects the default boot config (typically the one with {current} identifier).

Is Fast Startup disabled? It will be disabled if you already disabled hibernation mode. If you kept hibeneration enabled, you need to
separately disable Fast Startup. To ensure that you are not shutting
down into [hybrid] hibernate mode, run "shutdown /r".

When cold booting, and *before* the OS begins to load (i.e., at the POST screen), can you hit F5 (or whatever your BIOS recognizes at the POST
screen) to get into the BIOS settings? With USB-attached keyboards,
I've encountered some setups where the keyboard is dead until the OS
loads. Whether PS/2 or USB, the LEDs on the keyboard should flash to
show it got a reset signal on a cold boot.

After using bcedit to enable the boot menu, and after a cold boot, what
do you see if you hit Esc as prompted? What does the "Startup Menu"
look like? From the article:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22455-enable-disable-f8-advanced-boot-options-windows-10-a.html

under the Contents section, the Advanced Startup Options screen should
get replaced with the example screens where you see listed or enumerated choices which include Safe Mode (no networking), Safe Mode with
Networking, and Safe Mode with Command Prompt.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/02/16 11:15 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Earlier today, I wrote:

John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 06:02 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[...]

Thanks for this info, Frank. However, my desktop dates back to *ahem*
*cough* about 2010. No UEFI.

Are you sure that your desktop doesn't have UEFI? UEFI started in 2005
and by 2007 already had its third spec (version 2.0). UEFI can be quite
'invisible if you don't know it's there and don't know how to enter it.

An easy way to tell one or the other is just try the recipe you
posted:

<you>

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.

Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode >>>>>>> with Networking.

</you>

If where it says 'Navigate to Troubleshoot' you get a screen labeled
'Choose an option' which includes the mentioned 'Troubleshoot' option,
you *do* have UEFI.

Alternatively, you can use Computer Management -> Storage -> Disk
Management. If that lists an 'EFI' partition, you have UEFI.

Even simpler if you have Macrium Reflect, that will say '[EUFI]' on
the top bar.

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Thanks for the info, Frank. I tried Disk Management and there's no
lsting of an efi partition.

Ran bcdedit at a command prompt, and no mention of efi.

System was purchased on June 25, 2011.

--
John C.

Take back Microsoft from India.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/02/16 10:30 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

It turned out that what was causing my problem was a data cable to one
of my internal hard drives that wasn't pushed all the way in. I
unplugged all my drives by the SSD when I reinstalled W10 Pro, but when
I plugged the drives all back in after the reinstall, I must not have
pushed that cable all the way in. Regardless, the problem is fixed now.

I take it that the SSD is not your boot drive. If an HDD was the boot
drive, but had its cabling incomplete, I wouldn't think the problem was
not having F8 to get into the boot menu, but instead a message from the
BIOS that boot drive was not found.

No, the SSD *is* the boot drive. The cable was pushed in enough to make
a partial connection, because I was able to use the drive for a while.
Then the connection failed. I discovered the cable was loose by checking
all of the drives. When I pushed it all the way in, the problems ended.
The problem was that booting was often very slow and so was shutting
down. I think the system was confused about whether or not the drive was actually there. I don't know. All I know is that pushing in the data
cable all the way solved the problem.

--
John C.

Take back Microsoft from India.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 12:27:40 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

Allan Higdon <allanh@vivaldi.net> wrote:

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

I just found:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22455-enable-disable-f8-advanced-boot-options-windows-10-a.html

which mentions using Paul's bcdedit command line specifying the
bootmgr object, but uses yes instead of True to enable the boot-time
menu. It also shows using the bcdedit command line specifying the
default object that the Minitool article suggested.

I tried using "yes" and "True", but neither worked for me.
I press F8 repeatedly, but all I see on bootup is "Press ESC for the Startup Menu".

Which bcdedit command did you use? Presumably since you mention yes or
True as attribute values, you used:

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True
bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu Yes

Yes, I tried both of those.
The value for displaybootmenu is still "Yes".

Did you then try the other suggestion?

bcdedit /set {default} bootmenupolicy legacy

I copied that from the page you linked to, but it didn't return as "successful" after it was entered.
The line above did work.

After using one of those, run bcdedit (no arguments) to list the
configs. For the first command (displaybootmenu), you should see one of
the boot entries list displaybootmenu. Since the command specifies the {bootmgr} config entry, bcdedit should show:

Windows Boot Manager
--------------------
identifier {bootmgr}
device partition=\Device\HarddiskVolume4
path \EFI\MICROSOFT\BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI
description Windows Boot Manager
locale en-US
inherit {globalsettings}
default {current}
resumeobject {93db0b77-b7b0-11e9-8457-c422263ccb27}
displayorder {current}
{79ec5fd5-9799-11ee-91c7-48f17fd1afaa} toolsdisplayorder {memdiag}
timeout 10
displaybootmenu Yes

The other parameters may be different for you, but after using bcdedit
to enable the displaybootmenu attribute then it should show up. Notice
my timeout (to show the boot menu) is 10 seconds before the bootmgr
selects the active (default) boot config. Make sure your timeout is set
to something that lets you see the boot menu, so it doesn't just flash
past too quickly to see or read. You can change the timeout with:

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} timeout 30

That was the problem.
For some reason, the value for mine was 0.
I changed it to 15, and pressing F8 does work now.
Thanks...

Mine is 10 seconds (which is actually 7 seconds when measured). Use
whatever timetout you like for how long you want the boot menu to stay
on the screen before it automatically selects the default boot config (typically the one with {current} identifier).

Is Fast Startup disabled? It will be disabled if you already disabled hibernation mode. If you kept hibeneration enabled, you need to
separately disable Fast Startup. To ensure that you are not shutting
down into [hybrid] hibernate mode, run "shutdown /r".

When cold booting, and *before* the OS begins to load (i.e., at the POST screen), can you hit F5 (or whatever your BIOS recognizes at the POST
screen) to get into the BIOS settings? With USB-attached keyboards,
I've encountered some setups where the keyboard is dead until the OS
loads. Whether PS/2 or USB, the LEDs on the keyboard should flash to
show it got a reset signal on a cold boot.

After using bcedit to enable the boot menu, and after a cold boot, what
do you see if you hit Esc as prompted? What does the "Startup Menu"
look like? From the article:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22455-enable-disable-f8-advanced-boot-options-windows-10-a.html

under the Contents section, the Advanced Startup Options screen should
get replaced with the example screens where you see listed or enumerated choices which include Safe Mode (no networking), Safe Mode with
Networking, and Safe Mode with Command Prompt.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Allan Higdon <allanh@vivaldi.net> wrote:

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

... my timeout (to show the boot menu) is 10 seconds before the
bootmgr selects the active (default) boot config. Make sure your
timeout is set to something that lets you see the boot menu, so it
doesn't just flash past too quickly to see or read. You can change
the timeout with:

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} timeout 30

That was the problem. For some reason, the value for mine was 0. I
changed it to 15, and pressing F8 does work now.

Another method to change the timeout is to run msconfig, select the Boot
tab, and enter the timeout there. Whatever you can do, so can a tweaker
or malware. A value of zero means the user thought they never wanted to
see the boot menu, or something changed it for them.

msconfig also lets you do a reboot into Safe Mode without all the
whoopla of the other manipulations noted by John. However, you still
need to be booted into Windows to run msconfig to reboot into Safe Mode.
If there is a problem loading Windows, msconfig may not be accessible.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 10:30 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

It turned out that what was causing my problem was a data cable to one
of my internal hard drives that wasn't pushed all the way in. I
unplugged all my drives by the SSD when I reinstalled W10 Pro, but when
I plugged the drives all back in after the reinstall, I must not have
pushed that cable all the way in. Regardless, the problem is fixed now.

I take it that the SSD is not your boot drive. If an HDD was the boot
drive, but had its cabling incomplete, I wouldn't think the problem was
not having F8 to get into the boot menu, but instead a message from the
BIOS that boot drive was not found.

No, the SSD *is* the boot drive. The cable was pushed in enough to make
a partial connection, because I was able to use the drive for a while.
Then the connection failed. I discovered the cable was loose by checking
all of the drives. When I pushed it all the way in, the problems ended.
The problem was that booting was often very slow and so was shutting
down. I think the system was confused about whether or not the drive was actually there. I don't know. All I know is that pushing in the data
cable all the way solved the problem.

That also solved the original problem as per Subject that you could not
use F8 to get the boot menu?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 11:15 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Earlier today, I wrote:

John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 06:02 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[...]

Thanks for this info, Frank. However, my desktop dates back to *ahem*
*cough* about 2010. No UEFI.

Are you sure that your desktop doesn't have UEFI? UEFI started in 2005 >>> and by 2007 already had its third spec (version 2.0). UEFI can be quite
'invisible if you don't know it's there and don't know how to enter it.

An easy way to tell one or the other is just try the recipe you
posted:

<you>

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings. >>>>>>>>
Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode >>>>>>>> with Networking.

</you>

If where it says 'Navigate to Troubleshoot' you get a screen labeled
'Choose an option' which includes the mentioned 'Troubleshoot' option,
you *do* have UEFI.

Alternatively, you can use Computer Management -> Storage -> Disk
Management. If that lists an 'EFI' partition, you have UEFI.

Even simpler if you have Macrium Reflect, that will say '[EUFI]' on
the top bar.

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Thanks for the info, Frank. I tried Disk Management and there's no
lsting of an efi partition.

Ran bcdedit at a command prompt, and no mention of efi.

System was purchased on June 25, 2011.

Just because UEFI got adopted by mobo makers doesn't mean sellers
weren't still selling their old MBR stock of mobos. That was a
transition period.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 2/16/2025 10:34 AM, Allan Higdon wrote:

On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 08:56:03 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

I just found:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22455-enable-disable-f8-advanced-boot-options-windows-10-a.html

which mentions using Paul's bcdedit command line specifying the bootmgr
object, but uses yes instead of True to enable the boot-time menu.  It
also shows using the bcdedit command line specifying the default object
that the Minitool article suggested.

I tried using "yes" and "True", but neither worked for me.
I press F8 repeatedly, but all I see on bootup is "Press ESC for the Startup Menu".

You don't press anything in a rush with this.

I showed a picture, and W10 or W11, the screen that results
from the addition of that setting, has areas with things in it.
Just as if looking at the black boot screen in WinXP.

W10 boot item
W11 boot item


Press F8 for Safe Boot


Memory Test

I provided a picture to show what it looks like.

You wait for the black screen, *then* you press F8,
just like it says on the screen. The default timer
(just like WinXP) is 30 seconds, so you have 30 seconds
to make up your mind what your input to the screen will be.

I've pressed F8 too many times with that interface now,
a couple of times. I'm a bit more careful about hammering
F8 too much. To trigger the popup boot on my machine (which
is F8), on my machine you have to press F8 one more
time right after the screen turns black, and that brings
up the popup boot menu. Then you select Windows Boot Manager
perhaps, then the black (winXP era) screen appears. Then, if
you press F8 as instructed, you're taken to the Safe Mode menu.

This is really a LOT better than the song and dance
Microsoft has planned for you to get to Safe Mode.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 16 Feb 2025 19:15:23 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Or not. My home-built PC uses UEFI but the output of bcdedit doesn't
mention "efi" anywhere.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/02/16 04:48 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 11:15 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Earlier today, I wrote:

John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 06:02 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[...]

Thanks for this info, Frank. However, my desktop dates back to *ahem* >>>>> *cough* about 2010. No UEFI.

Are you sure that your desktop doesn't have UEFI? UEFI started in 2005 >>>> and by 2007 already had its third spec (version 2.0). UEFI can be quite >>>> 'invisible if you don't know it's there and don't know how to enter it. >>>>
An easy way to tell one or the other is just try the recipe you
posted:

<you>

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings. >>>>>>>>>
Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode >>>>>>>>> with Networking.

</you>

If where it says 'Navigate to Troubleshoot' you get a screen labeled >>>> 'Choose an option' which includes the mentioned 'Troubleshoot' option, >>>> you *do* have UEFI.

Alternatively, you can use Computer Management -> Storage -> Disk
Management. If that lists an 'EFI' partition, you have UEFI.

Even simpler if you have Macrium Reflect, that will say '[EUFI]' on
the top bar.

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Thanks for the info, Frank. I tried Disk Management and there's no
lsting of an efi partition.

Ran bcdedit at a command prompt, and no mention of efi.

System was purchased on June 25, 2011.

Just because UEFI got adopted by mobo makers doesn't mean sellers
weren't still selling their old MBR stock of mobos. That was a
transition period.

Yeah, that's what I figured too. And the system was purchased at a
Costco store. It was given to me by a relative. Still a good computer
though IMO.

--
John C.

Take back Microsoft from India.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 25/02/16 04:46 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 10:30 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

It turned out that what was causing my problem was a data cable to one >>>> of my internal hard drives that wasn't pushed all the way in. I
unplugged all my drives by the SSD when I reinstalled W10 Pro, but when >>>> I plugged the drives all back in after the reinstall, I must not have
pushed that cable all the way in. Regardless, the problem is fixed now. >>>

I take it that the SSD is not your boot drive. If an HDD was the boot
drive, but had its cabling incomplete, I wouldn't think the problem was
not having F8 to get into the boot menu, but instead a message from the
BIOS that boot drive was not found.

No, the SSD *is* the boot drive. The cable was pushed in enough to make
a partial connection, because I was able to use the drive for a while.
Then the connection failed. I discovered the cable was loose by checking
all of the drives. When I pushed it all the way in, the problems ended.
The problem was that booting was often very slow and so was shutting
down. I think the system was confused about whether or not the drive was
actually there. I don't know. All I know is that pushing in the data
cable all the way solved the problem.

That also solved the original problem as per Subject that you could not
use F8 to get the boot menu?

No, but I don't need to get into the safe mode at this point. I've
archived the replies for future reference should I need to do so.

The morning, the W10 problem of the day was Windows Security's
Ransomware Protection Protected folder alerts. I activated Ransomware protection yesterday and it started blocking installed programs that
I've been using for years. Adding those programs to the "Allowed apps"
list took care of that, so problem resolved.

--
John C.

Take back Microsoft from India.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

Just because UEFI got adopted by mobo makers doesn't mean sellers
weren't still selling their old MBR stock of mobos. That was a
transition period.

Yes, but 4 to 6 years [1] is quite a long time for such a transition
period.

[1] 2005/2007 to John's purchase in 2011.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:

On 16 Feb 2025 19:15:23 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Or not. My home-built PC uses UEFI but the output of bcdedit doesn't
mention "efi" anywhere.

Hmmm!? On my (HP) system, the Windows Boot Manager and Windows Boot
Loader 'path' names end in '.efi'.

What about Disk Management, does that list an 'EFI' partition?

N.B. I have only HP systems, so I'd be interested if (some of) these
things are HP-specific.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

msconfig also lets you do a reboot into Safe Mode without all the
whoopla of the other manipulations noted by John. However, you still
need to be booted into Windows to run msconfig to reboot into Safe Mode.
If there is a problem loading Windows, msconfig may not be accessible.

As I described [1], on an UEFI system there should be no problem to do a
cold boot into Safe mode, because you should be able to do it via the BIOS-to-UEFI route.

Why John can't (now: couldn't; he's no longer interested in trying)
get into Safe mode on his non-UEFI system, remains a mystery. I don't
think that Safe mode was ever disabled by default on those BIOS(-only)
systems, but perhaps the timeout was set to zero, making it hard/
impossible to press/detect F8.

[1] Message-ID: <vosulh.5q4.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 04:46 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 10:30 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

It turned out that what was causing my problem was a data cable to one >>>>> of my internal hard drives that wasn't pushed all the way in. I
unplugged all my drives by the SSD when I reinstalled W10 Pro, but when >>>>> I plugged the drives all back in after the reinstall, I must not have >>>>> pushed that cable all the way in. Regardless, the problem is fixed now. >>>>

I take it that the SSD is not your boot drive. If an HDD was the boot >>>> drive, but had its cabling incomplete, I wouldn't think the problem was >>>> not having F8 to get into the boot menu, but instead a message from the >>>> BIOS that boot drive was not found.

No, the SSD *is* the boot drive. The cable was pushed in enough to make
a partial connection, because I was able to use the drive for a while.
Then the connection failed. I discovered the cable was loose by checking >>> all of the drives. When I pushed it all the way in, the problems ended.
The problem was that booting was often very slow and so was shutting
down. I think the system was confused about whether or not the drive was >>> actually there. I don't know. All I know is that pushing in the data
cable all the way solved the problem.

That also solved the original problem as per Subject that you could not
use F8 to get the boot menu?

No, but I don't need to get into the safe mode at this point. I've
archived the replies for future reference should I need to do so.

The morning, the W10 problem of the day was Windows Security's
Ransomware Protection Protected folder alerts. I activated Ransomware protection yesterday and it started blocking installed programs that
I've been using for years. Adding those programs to the "Allowed apps"
list took care of that, so problem resolved.

I'd install a second-opinion anti-virus program. Its on-access/realtime scanner is disabled, and you just use it as a manual on-demand scanner.
Just because you've installed software you've liked and used it for many
years does not mean it is absent of any untoward payload. Could be the malicious payload is still there, but it never fired ... yet.

However, the more protections that are added the more likely false
positives happen. Defender's ransomware protection only guards against encrypting data file, not executables or system files. It helps to
protect your data. But if you are copying or saving your data to
removable media (optical discs, USB flash drives, USB HDDs) then
ransomware can't get at your data, anyway. Ransomware protection is
just another name for Controlled Folder Access. Once you enable
Controlled Folder Access, 3 sub-options appear:

- Block history
- Protected folders
- Allow an app through Control Folder Access.

By default, the special folders ([My] Documents, Pictures, Music,
Videos, and Favorites) are included. You will have to add other folders
if you want them similarly guarded.

The Allow An App setting lets you pick which programs/apps can access
the protected folders.

You'll have more complex protection management with the ransomware
protection, like having to add more folders, and add more programs to
have access to those protected folders. Just the special folders are protected, by default, unless you add more. Get ready for lots of
alerts on denied access. Only trusted (allowed) apps are granted
access, and you might get unpleasantly surprised at how many processes
want to access those folders. You likely will not recognize every
process that wants access to the protected folders, so you'll be
spending time researching what is the process and filename for it, and
what it is for, and if it should be trusted. If you blindly grant
access to every process that asks for it, you destroy the effectiveness
of the controlled folder feature while suffering through all the
notifications. You suffer for nothing, because you allow everything.
You need to research just what wants access.

Supposedly there is a list of pre-allowed apps to reduce the number of
nags, but a list is pretty much worthless unless hashes are also
recorded for each app to ensure THAT app is whitelisted, and not some
other app by the same name.

As I recall, I had Controlled Folders enabled for a short time. Tired
of the nags, so I disabled it. Security and convenience are the
anti-thesis of each other: you get more of one at the expense of the
other. If security gets too much in your way, it becomes nagware or interferenceware. Plus, it only protects your data files. Everything elsewhere is still vulnerable to getting encrypted.

What can go wrong with Controlled Folder Access: https://www.computerworld.com/article/1612084/windows-controlled-folder-access-think-twice-before-deploying.html
https://www.pdq.com/blog/controlledfolders/

That notes Controlled Folder Access will reject previously whitelisted
apps after they get updated. Likely the new files in the update are in
the same path, but will have a different hash. Different bytes in the
updated file mean a different hash. So, apparently the protection does
track a hash for each allowed program. That isn't just for the apps you install, and then get updated. It's also for Windows programs that get
update, like Notepad or Paint. New/updated files mean a different hash
which won't match what was recorded in the whitelist.

Controlled Folder Access aka Ransomware Protection has limited
protection on a limited fileset (just data files). It will generate
false positives, like alerting that [an updated] Notepad is blocked from editing a file under your Documents folder. There are much better
solutions. Mine is to use Macrium Reflect with its Image Guardian
feature. A payware version of Reflect is required to get Image
Guardian, but then the Macrium discontinued their free version of
Reflect, anyway. Image Guardian operates as a stacked file I/O driver,
so it runs in ring 0 of the OS. Any process that attempts to rename,
delete, or write (like to encrypt) Reflect's backup files will get
blocked from access. I remember the .mrimg filetype is a Reflect image
backup file, but there are some other filetypes that are protected.
Even I got caught by Image Guardian when I attempt to use File Explorer
to delete backup files that were too old. I had to either go into
Reflect to use its file management, or go into Reflect to disable Image Guardian to do external file management of the backups. The backups are protected to allow access only by Reflect, but files in, say, Documents
can still get infected or encrypted; however, if those data files got corrupted, you can restore from the protected backups.

Nothing is perfect. I did find a window of opportunity during Windows
startup (until the Image Guardian driver got loaded) for malware to get
at the backup files, reported it to Macrium, but they said it was the
soonest they could incorporate the protection into Windows. Plus, you
can boot using a different instance of an OS to then see the original
boot drive as a data drive, nothing of the original OS gets loaded (it
is quiescent) so none of its protections. Anyone with physical access
to your computer could boot to a different OS to do anything on the
original drive. Even if you enabled a BIOS system (boot-time) password, physical access inside your computer can have a hacker short the CMOS
reset jumper to reset the BIOS to defaults (which will not have the
system password enabled). Anyone with expertise can do anything once
they have physical access to your computer.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

msconfig also lets you do a reboot into Safe Mode without all the
whoopla of the other manipulations noted by John. However, you still
need to be booted into Windows to run msconfig to reboot into Safe Mode.
If there is a problem loading Windows, msconfig may not be accessible.

As I described [1], on an UEFI system there should be no problem to do a cold boot into Safe mode, because you should be able to do it via the BIOS-to-UEFI route.

Why John can't (now: couldn't; he's no longer interested in trying)
get into Safe mode on his non-UEFI system, remains a mystery. I don't
think that Safe mode was ever disabled by default on those BIOS(-only) systems, but perhaps the timeout was set to zero, making it hard/
impossible to press/detect F8.

[1] Message-ID: <vosulh.5q4.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

That's what Allan reported when he tried using bcedit to enable the
legacy boot menu. He couldn't see it. Turns out his timeout was zero.
Once he upped it to 15 seconds, he had plenty of time to see the menu.

The OP didn't report back if he ever tried enabling the legacy boot
menu. His problem was with a partially disconnect HDD that caused a
timeout in the POST detect. Once he reseated the HDD's data cable, his
problem was over, and had no need anymore to get into Safe Mode.
However, if he wants to get into Safe Mode later, he'll have to go
through the hell he noted in his starter post, or maybe remember this discussion to try using bcdedit.

Not sure why you think there is a mini-OS in the UEFI firmware. Safe
Mode is not a function of UEFI. The only trick in UEFI is an entry to
specify an executable file that Windows will run after it loads if it
see the UEFI entry. It's considered a deeper rootkit. Some companies
use it to ensure, say, their software inventorying client gets loaded to monitor what their employees are putting on their workstations, and
enforce only company-authorized software on the company's workstations
(it's their property, not of their employees). Tracking software can
similarly be specified in the UEFI as to Windows seeing the entry, and
loading it on startup. There are ways to thwart this UEFI trick, but
I'd have to look it up again.

-----

Ooh, I found my note on the UEFI rootkit. See below:

A "feature" of UEFI (with Microsoft's involvement) is a program can be specified in the UEFI to run on Windows startup. Despite regulating any startup programs, or scanning for malware, there could sit a call to a
program in the UEFI. It could, for example, be used for starting
execution of tracking software (how the computer is used), or for
software inventorying on workstations. I've only seen it used by
companies that wanted to add usage tracking, location, anti-theft, or inventorying to their workstations. However, it could also be used by
malware, and I don't know if any AVs check for a program load specified
in the UEFI. As I recall, some mobos (Lenovo, Gigabyte, ASUS) use this
trick to run services or diagnostics on Windows startup. The AV should
catch malware for whatever the UEFI program load specifies; that is, the
.exe in UEFI usually calls some other program that runs under Windows.

It is a "feature" only with UEFI. When Windows loads, it has a program (C:\Windows\system32\wpbbin.exe) that runs to determine if the UEFI
specified a start program. The UEFI start program is in one of the ACPI
tables in the BIOS. One trick is to rename the loader program in
Windows called the UEFI Bootkit dubbed BlackLotus.

You can Nirsoft's Firmware Tables View to see the ACPI tables in UEFI.
Look for the "Windows Platform Binary Table" (WPBT). Nirsoft will show
the ACPI table, if it is defined, but won't let you delete it. When I
found out about this, Nirsoft didn't show a WPBT table, but then I have
many options disabled in the BIOS. I also don't have the wpbbin.exe
program (that checks the UEFI for an .exe file to load) in my Windows installation.

Although pundits attempt to tout UEFI, Secure Boot, and other later
security measures as protecting users, there are UEFI Bootkits that
bypass all those measures, even Secure Boot, like BlackLotus.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/03/unkillable-uefi-malware-bypassing-secure-boot-enabled-by-unpatchable-windows-flaw/

Those are different beasts than the UEFI program load specified in an
ACPI table that Windows checks if it is defined, and if found will run
the UEFI-specified program. I'm noting the UEFI program load on Windows
launch because refurbs often are company workstations that were leased,
and then disposed of. Companies may employ tracking, location, or
software inventorying that the Windows-loaded UEFI-specified program
will start. You won't find that method listed in, say, SysInternals'
Autoruns. Windows loads, checks the UEFI for the bootkit/rootkit
program, and runs that program under Windows. Since Secure Boot okays
the load of Windows, and since it is a program under Windows that loads
the .exe in the UEFI, Secure Boot won't catch this tactic.

https://eclypsium.com/blog/everyone-gets-a-rootkit/

There are tools to nullify the .exe in the WPBT ACPI table in UEFI by
deleting it from memory before Windows reads the ACPI tables, like:

https://github.com/Jamesits/dropWPBT#from-windows

This removes the WPBT table from system memory, so you have it run as a
startup program (that loads with Windows startup, not until whenever you
log into your Windows account).

For your own computer, you don't want WPBT employed. WPBT started with
Windows 8. Probably the easiest way to disable WPBT is to rename,
delete, or move the wpbbin.exe if it exists on your system. An update
could replace it, so you might want to use Task Scheduler to run a
delete command on every Windows startup. The Github article talks about different methods of disabling WPBT, but they're rather complicated instructions.

-----

However, this rootkit relies on Windows seeing the ACPI table entry
specifying a program to load on startup, and Windows has to be already
loaded to run the program. The UEFI is not loading an OS. Safe Mode is
a function of the boot manager of the OS.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

msconfig also lets you do a reboot into Safe Mode without all the
whoopla of the other manipulations noted by John. However, you still
need to be booted into Windows to run msconfig to reboot into Safe Mode. >> If there is a problem loading Windows, msconfig may not be accessible.

As I described [1], on an UEFI system there should be no problem to do a cold boot into Safe mode, because you should be able to do it via the BIOS-to-UEFI route.

Why John can't (now: couldn't; he's no longer interested in trying)
get into Safe mode on his non-UEFI system, remains a mystery. I don't
think that Safe mode was ever disabled by default on those BIOS(-only) systems, but perhaps the timeout was set to zero, making it hard/ impossible to press/detect F8.

[1] Message-ID: <vosulh.5q4.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

That's what Allan reported when he tried using bcedit to enable the
legacy boot menu. He couldn't see it. Turns out his timeout was zero.
Once he upped it to 15 seconds, he had plenty of time to see the menu.

The OP didn't report back if he ever tried enabling the legacy boot
menu. His problem was with a partially disconnect HDD that caused a
timeout in the POST detect. Once he reseated the HDD's data cable, his problem was over, and had no need anymore to get into Safe Mode.
However, if he wants to get into Safe Mode later, he'll have to go
through the hell he noted in his starter post, or maybe remember this discussion to try using bcdedit.

Not sure why you think there is a mini-OS in the UEFI firmware. Safe
Mode is not a function of UEFI.

I never said "there is a mini-OS in the UEFI firmware" and I know Safe
Mode is not a function of UEFI. I only explained, that on an UEFI
system, you can do a cold boot into Safe Mode - without any preparation
(i.e. bcdedir, msconfig, etc.) - via the BIOS-to-UEFI route.

Just read my referenced post:

[1] Message-ID: <vosulh.5q4.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

[...]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:

On 16 Feb 2025 19:15:23 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit' >>>(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in >>>several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Or not. My home-built PC uses UEFI but the output of bcdedit doesn't
mention "efi" anywhere.

Hmmm!? On my (HP) system, the Windows Boot Manager and Windows Boot
Loader 'path' names end in '.efi'.

What about Disk Management, does that list an 'EFI' partition?

N.B. I have only HP systems, so I'd be interested if (some of) these
things are HP-specific.

Those are image files, the same as when .dat or .wmi are listed for the
boot loader files. However, .efi files are boot loaders that the BCD
table points to that UEFI can start loading. They contain instructions
for loading and starting an OS. EFI files can be digitally signed for integrity checking by UEFI Secure Boot (if you enabled that in the
UEFI/BIOS).

WIM files are file-based disk image formats. For example, WindowsPE
ships or builds as a .wim file.

https://www.techtarget.com/searchenterprisedesktop/definition/Windows-Imaging-Format-WIM

While the .dat filetype usually means a data file, it has also been used
to specify an image file for an OS image.

EFI files follow the PE-COFF (Portable Executable - Common Object Format
File) standard image format.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/debug/pe-format

I know some of the other boot image formats utilize WinPE's boot loader,
like the boot entry for Macrium Reflect (if you add it to the boot
list).

Since the OP says bcdedit doesn't list any .efi boot destinations, he
doesn't have UEFI. WMI and DAT are used with MBR, and physical
enumeration in boot.ini before that. He might have some BCD entries
specifying .wim files, or .dat files.

I remember the old boot.ini text files you could edit in Notepad that
located the boot loader by in the boot sector by drive and partition
(drives started with an offset of 0 while partitions started with an
offset of 1). I haven't seen that target type in bcdedit, but my boot
list is rather simplistic and short.

An easy way to determine if UEFI is involved is to run Device Manager (devmgmt.msc), and look under <computer> -> System Devices to look for "Microsoft-compliant UEFI system".

Another easy way is to run msinfo32.exe, and look for "BIOS Mode: UEFI".
If Legacy, it's MBR.

With bcdedit, look for the "Windows Boot Loader" section(s) at the path setting. If it points to \Windows\system32\winload.exe, it's legacy
(MBR). If it points to \Windows\system32\winload.efi, it's UEFI. Under
the "Windows Boot Manager" section, if path points to \EFI\Microsoft\Boot\bootmgfw.efi, its UEFI. Char says he sees no .efi
strings in the output of bcdedit.

In Disk Management (diskmgmt.msc), look at the recovery partition on the
boot disk to see if it says "Healthy (EFI System Partition)". The
section in the partitioning information may be too narrow to see much
past "Healthy", so hover the mouse cursor over the partition to see the
full comment.

It is possible the mobo has UEFI, but is configured to run in legacy
boot mode through the CSM (Compatibility Support Module) that provides
legacy BIOS compatibility to support MBR drives, especially if GPT was unnecessary (the drives were under 2TB with 4, or less, partitions), or
to provide compatibility with older operating systems. The UEFI specs
does contain an MBR section, too, with its partition table and partition entries. Intel was supposed to phase out CSM by around 2020, but the
OP's (Allan's) computer is much older.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:

On 16 Feb 2025 19:15:23 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit' >>>(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in >>>several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Or not. My home-built PC uses UEFI but the output of bcdedit doesn't
mention "efi" anywhere.

Hmmm!? On my (HP) system, the Windows Boot Manager and Windows Boot Loader 'path' names end in '.efi'.

What about Disk Management, does that list an 'EFI' partition?

N.B. I have only HP systems, so I'd be interested if (some of) these things are HP-specific.

[...]

Since the OP says bcdedit doesn't list any .efi boot destinations, he
doesn't have UEFI. WMI and DAT are used with MBR, and physical
enumeration in boot.ini before that. He might have some BCD entries specifying .wim files, or .dat files.

Sigh! It's not the OP (who is John C.), but Char Jackson, and Char
says (see quote above) "My home-built PC uses UEFI", so he *does* have
UEFI. You're not suggesting that Char doesn't know what he's talking
about, are you!?

[...]

[Several repeats of info I already mentioned.]

[...]

Intel was supposed to phase out CSM by around 2020, but the
OP's (Allan's) computer is much older.

Also Allan (Higdon) is not the OP, John C. is.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 17 Feb 2025 15:42:31 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:

On 16 Feb 2025 19:15:23 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Or not. My home-built PC uses UEFI but the output of bcdedit doesn't
mention "efi" anywhere.

Hmmm!? On my (HP) system, the Windows Boot Manager and Windows Boot
Loader 'path' names end in '.efi'.

My Dell laptop, circa 2012 and running Windows 8.1, does show 'efi' in
both of those path names, so I can see what you're talking about.

However, my desktop PC, built from scratch in about 2018, doesn't have
'efi' in the path name, and in fact, the Windows Boot Manager section of bcdedit doesn't even include a 'path' line. The Windows Boot Loader
section says "path \WINDOWS\system32\winload.exe".

What about Disk Management, does that list an 'EFI' partition?

On the Dell laptop, yes. On the desktop PC, no.

N.B. I have only HP systems, so I'd be interested if (some of) these
things are HP-specific.

I have no idea but thanks for bringing it up.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 17 Feb 2025 18:57:43 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:

On 16 Feb 2025 19:15:23 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Or not. My home-built PC uses UEFI but the output of bcdedit doesn't
mention "efi" anywhere.

Hmmm!? On my (HP) system, the Windows Boot Manager and Windows Boot
Loader 'path' names end in '.efi'.

What about Disk Management, does that list an 'EFI' partition?

N.B. I have only HP systems, so I'd be interested if (some of) these
things are HP-specific.

[...]

Since the OP says bcdedit doesn't list any .efi boot destinations, he
doesn't have UEFI. WMI and DAT are used with MBR, and physical
enumeration in boot.ini before that. He might have some BCD entries
specifying .wim files, or .dat files.

Sigh! It's not the OP (who is John C.), but Char Jackson, and Char
says (see quote above) "My home-built PC uses UEFI", so he *does* have
UEFI. You're not suggesting that Char doesn't know what he's talking
about, are you!?

He's probably right, actually. I apparently don't know what I'm talking
about in this case. It happens!

Msinfo.exe shows "bios mode - legacy", which I don't remember setting,
and during cold boot, if I enter what we used to call BIOS, the screen
says UEFI, but that could just be a Gigabyte thing.

I'm not sure how disk size and format play into it, but in addition to
the system drive, I have 5 data disks in this system, all formatted GPT,
with capacities of 12TB, 14TB, 14TB, 18TB, and 18TB.

Apologies for leading you astray. Please carry on. :)

[snipping the rest]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Char Jackson wrote:

On 17 Feb 2025 18:57:43 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:

On 16 Feb 2025 19:15:23 GMT, Frank Slootweg
<this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this
thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case),
in several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Or not. My home-built PC uses UEFI but the output of bcdedit
doesn't mention "efi" anywhere.

Hmmm!? On my (HP) system, the Windows Boot Manager and Windows
Boot Loader 'path' names end in '.efi'.

What about Disk Management, does that list an 'EFI' partition?

N.B. I have only HP systems, so I'd be interested if (some of)
these things are HP-specific.

[...]

Since the OP says bcdedit doesn't list any .efi boot destinations,
he doesn't have UEFI. WMI and DAT are used with MBR, and physical
enumeration in boot.ini before that. He might have some BCD entries
specifying .wim files, or .dat files.

Sigh! It's not the OP (who is John C.), but Char Jackson, and Char
says (see quote above) "My home-built PC uses UEFI", so he *does*
have UEFI. You're not suggesting that Char doesn't know what he's
talking about, are you!?

He's probably right, actually. I apparently don't know what I'm
talking about in this case. It happens!

Msinfo.exe shows "bios mode - legacy", which I don't remember setting,
and during cold boot, if I enter what we used to call BIOS, the screen
says UEFI, but that could just be a Gigabyte thing.

I'm not sure how disk size and format play into it, but in addition to
the system drive, I have 5 data disks in this system, all formatted
GPT, with capacities of 12TB, 14TB, 14TB, 18TB, and 18TB.

Apologies for leading you astray. Please carry on. :)

[snipping the rest]

I have msinfo32 on my windows 10 64 bit that shows a lot of info. To set
boot safe boot options use msconfig. Actually I am not sure if you are
still on the subject line.

<Bill>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 18/02/2025 06:29, Char Jackson wrote:

However, my desktop PC, built from scratch in about 2018, doesn't have
'efi' in the path name, and in fact, the Windows Boot Manager section of bcdedit doesn't even include a 'path' line. The Windows Boot Loader
section says "path \WINDOWS\system32\winload.exe".

Try this Link:

<https://i.imgur.com/lGN2fXL.png>

Also check whether you have used MBR or GPT (GUID) for the system in
question that doesn't have efi partition. I suspect on your new system,
you have MBR rather than GPT. DELL will always have the correct
partition table before shipping.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 2/17/2025 8:08 AM, John C. wrote:

On 25/02/16 04:48 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

"John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 11:15 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Earlier today, I wrote:

John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 25/02/16 06:02 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[...]

Thanks for this info, Frank. However, my desktop dates back to *ahem* >>>>>> *cough* about 2010. No UEFI.

Are you sure that your desktop doesn't have UEFI? UEFI started in 2005 >>>>> and by 2007 already had its third spec (version 2.0). UEFI can be quite >>>>> 'invisible if you don't know it's there and don't know how to enter it. >>>>>
An easy way to tell one or the other is just try the recipe you
posted:

<you>

Windows 10:

Shift + Restart:

On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
selecting Power > Restart.

Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings. >>>>>>>>>>
Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode >>>>>>>>>> with Networking.

</you>

If where it says 'Navigate to Troubleshoot' you get a screen labeled >>>>> 'Choose an option' which includes the mentioned 'Troubleshoot' option, >>>>> you *do* have UEFI.

Alternatively, you can use Computer Management -> Storage -> Disk
Management. If that lists an 'EFI' partition, you have UEFI.

Even simpler if you have Macrium Reflect, that will say '[EUFI]' on >>>>> the top bar.

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread: >>>>
In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Thanks for the info, Frank. I tried Disk Management and there's no
lsting of an efi partition.

Ran bcdedit at a command prompt, and no mention of efi.

System was purchased on June 25, 2011.

Just because UEFI got adopted by mobo makers doesn't mean sellers
weren't still selling their old MBR stock of mobos. That was a
transition period.

Yeah, that's what I figured too. And the system was purchased at a
Costco store. It was given to me by a relative. Still a good computer
though IMO.

https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html

ZIP - English

If you run CPU-Z portable version, in the Mainboard tab, it does
not tell you whether the BIOS is one type or another.

However, the "About" tab on the top-right, has "Save Report (.TXT)"
and that has a lot more detail in it. For my DailyDriver, it says
for example:

WALLACE.txt <=== machine-name

BIOS

UEFI Yes <=== not a lot of detail...
BIOS Vendor American Megatrends Inc.
BIOS MSG 63-0100-000001-00101111-122418-Chipset
BIOS Date 12/24/18
Mainboard Vendor 000001
AMD AGESA ComboAM4v2PI 1.2.0.Ca <=== PCH stokes CPU at startup, with a bitstream

Then, elsewhere in the file, it claims a certain EEPROM size for the BIOS.
A legacy BIOS could be 128KB in size, so relatively cheap to build. The
DMI is the "decorative fluff" and any information here has no effect
on system operation, and the contents could be completely imaginary.

DMI

SMBIOS Version 2.8

DMI BIOS
vendor American Megatrends International LLC.
version 1.I0
date 07/13/2024
ROM size 16384 KB <===

One of the reasons a UEFI BIOS is so big, is 4MB of it (4096KB)
is set aside for "boot path memory". Every time you change-up disks
in the machine, the boot path is stored for some reason. Yet, caching
the boot path, doesn't particularly seem to "accelerate" anything.

This feature of UEFI is referred to as NVRAM (non volatile RAM)
even though it is really a flash memory. The 256 byte CMOS memory in the PCH
is also referred to as NVRAM, but it is the real NVRAM (battery powered
static RAM cells).

The BIOS must also "manage" this area. One BIOS design forgot the
need to "flush" the 4MB region when it gets to a certain fullness,
and the motherboard actually "jams up" when it runs out of boot path
storage space. There aren't many boards where that happened, but
it was a bit of a QA wakeup call for the people creating the
UEFI BIOS design.

A 128KB legacy BIOS motherboard, won't have 4096KB of NVRAM (NOR Flash)
to store such variables, so the BIOS chip from that perspective
has to be pretty big, to stand a chance of doing that.

It is quite normal for the BIOS to have "self-flashing capability".
That's been present since at least year 2000. In fact, some BIOS flashing procedures, use the flash routine store in the BIOS, to flash the BIOS :-) (Don't worry, the BIOS is shadowed in system RAM...)

Not all boards have replacement BIOS images, like an OEM board
could get by with just the initial BIOS images stored. However,
the Secure Boot bugs have required a certain amount of fixing,
so at least in the last two or three years, there's been an
uptick in the availability of replacement BIOS images. You have
to be fairly careful when decompressing one of those images,
to "re-inflate it to the correct size". Working with the BIOS
file from the manufacturer web site, is not easy, but given my
DMI is declaring one monster of a BIOS chip, I would want a
second opinion by using 7ZIP on the file.

Name: 7C56v1I1.zip
Size: 18216711 bytes (17 MiB)
SHA256: D7216262F760291AAE2FC275E6E0EAC974CFEF67467F09B7D5CF7B6F37356B74

It is kind of a monster :-) "Must be a UEFI", a fairly mild confirmation.
A regular BIOS simply does not need to be anywhere near that big.

When that file is unpacked, the size is 33554432. If that is a power-of-two number, then that's how ROMs are sold, is power-of-two for NOR flash EEPROMS.

factor 33554432
33554432: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

It's actually 32MB! A hell of a lot bigger than a 128KB legacy BIOS.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 2/18/2025 1:29 AM, Char Jackson wrote:

On 17 Feb 2025 15:42:31 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:

On 16 Feb 2025 19:15:23 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:

In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
(without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
several places, if you have an UEFI system.

Or not. My home-built PC uses UEFI but the output of bcdedit doesn't
mention "efi" anywhere.

Hmmm!? On my (HP) system, the Windows Boot Manager and Windows Boot
Loader 'path' names end in '.efi'.

My Dell laptop, circa 2012 and running Windows 8.1, does show 'efi' in
both of those path names, so I can see what you're talking about.

However, my desktop PC, built from scratch in about 2018, doesn't have
'efi' in the path name, and in fact, the Windows Boot Manager section of bcdedit doesn't even include a 'path' line. The Windows Boot Loader
section says "path \WINDOWS\system32\winload.exe".

What about Disk Management, does that list an 'EFI' partition?

On the Dell laptop, yes. On the desktop PC, no.

N.B. I have only HP systems, so I'd be interested if (some of) these
things are HP-specific.

I have no idea but thanks for bringing it up.

bcdedit

Windows Boot Manager
--------------------
identifier {bootmgr}
device partition=\Device\HarddiskVolume1
path \EFI\MICROSOFT\BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI

The \EFI is in the root of the ESP partition, the FAT32 thing.
vvvvvvv
+-----+-----------------------------+-----+--- - -
| MBR | EFI System Partition (ESP) | MSR | C:
+-----+-----------------------------+-----+--- - -

It's pretty hard to get samples of "all possible configurations" for viable OS installations.

*******

On the Test Machine, I have to search around to find a non-GPT setup.

bcdedit

Windows Boot Manager
--------------------
identifier {bootmgr}
device partition=C:
description Windows Boot Manager

Windows Boot Loader
-------------------
identifier {current}
device partition=C:
path \WINDOWS\system32\winload.exe so it jumps to C:\WINDOWS\system32\winload.exe

That is booting the conventional way (CSM), using MBR code detection of Active partition.

+-----+-----------------------------+--------------------------+ - - -
| MBR | C: System, Boot, Active | Recovery Partition 800MB |
+-----+-----------------------------+--------------------------+ - - -

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 14/02/2025 12:27 am, John C. wrote:

Uncle Sam trolled:

Ant wrote:

Yep. It's annoying. I am trying to get away from Windows to Linux. macOS >>> is OK, but Apple also is doing crazy stuff these days. :(

This is wonderful. Linux has a very easy way to get into safe mode. The
rest of the time you can watch porn videos and Microsoft won't even know
what the heck you are doing on Linux.

Why do you have to try? Is it difficult to get away from Windows? John C
might have a solution for you. He hates Indians and Chinese and I am not
saying he is racist bigot.

Sure you're not. So... playing the "racism" card, eh?

1. how is it that you think that all people from India are the same race?
2. how is it that you think that all people from China are the same race?

Yeap .... THE HUMAN RACE!!

If anything, I'm guilty of "countryism".

Correct.
--
Daniel70

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)