XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

“Your computer is toast

“Running Windows 10 on your computer? On October 14 Microsoft wants to
turn it into junk.

“It may seem like it continues to work after that date for a bit, but when Microsoft stops support for Windows 10, your perfectly good computer will
be officially obsolete.

“Windows 10 will degrade as more and more bugs come to light. With nobody
to correct them, you risk being hacked. Your data, identity, and control
over your device could be stolen.

“New versions of your apps will not run, but Microsoft will still block
you from upgrading to the next version of Windows until you buy the new computer they decide.”

Scary? Yes. Exaggerated? No. Because that’s what Microsoft really wants to do. Just like it has done so many times before.

<https://kde.org/for/w10-exiles/>

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On Wed, 6/4/2025 8:41 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

“Your computer is toast

“Running Windows 10 on your computer? On October 14 Microsoft wants to
turn it into junk.

“It may seem like it continues to work after that date for a bit, but when Microsoft stops support for Windows 10, your perfectly good computer will
be officially obsolete.

“Windows 10 will degrade as more and more bugs come to light. With nobody to correct them, you risk being hacked. Your data, identity, and control
over your device could be stolen.

“New versions of your apps will not run, but Microsoft will still block
you from upgrading to the next version of Windows until you buy the new computer they decide.”

Scary? Yes. Exaggerated? No. Because that’s what Microsoft really wants to do. Just like it has done so many times before.

<https://kde.org/for/w10-exiles/>

Was that a picture of one of the KDE staffers computer room ?

Maybe that's their build server ? :-)

Seriously, I scanned the page and I don't see an action plan.
How exactly will the software climb onto the PC ?

That's what is missing from the Year Of The Linux Desktop,
is the Concierge service. Remember, your average user is
not a C.S. graduate, and with the sorry state of Google searches
these days, even the best-prepared website is never going to show
up in a search.

How do I put the ISO on the USB stick ? Some of the people,
just a few, will remember trying one USB stick tool after another,
and ending up with nothing to show for their trouble. And those
are the people who will be offering advice.

A few of the users, will try to download the ISO onto
a FAT32 partition for temporary storage. Say, a 6GB Ubuntu DVD.
And you know what happens when you do that. I've done that
*several* times by accident. Today, there are no more FAT32 partitions
in the active computer room. When the WinXP machine died, the interest
in FAT32 went with it.

I looked at gstatcounter today, and I saw some strange patterns
in there. What's weird about the patterns, is there are real world
events... and the patterns in gstatcounter are delayed by two or
three months. Nothing seems to "align immediately" exactly. It's
my suspicion, that Microsoft is winning by playing this game. But
it's a natural outcome. The path of least resistance is being followed.
I've already heard one USENETter say the fateful words,
"maybe I should buy a Win11 machine". Not many would have
the balls to admit something like that. Normally that sort
of thing happens silently.

That's why I'm telling you that Concierge service is the only
campaign that will work. Unless a loaded USB stick shows up in a mailer
on each users doorstep, it's not gonna happen.

Google has an offering for the Chrome Book OS, and the offering is a bit
more friendly than the competition. Unfortunately, their GUI
is not very expressive. When the installer boots, it should just
say "um, we don't install on desktops, hey, try your laptop".
Instead, the interface just freezes... as a status code. When
I booted my laptop with that installer USB, I finally made it
past the first screen. But had no intention of installing it
on my laptop.

If it's one thing I know about helping users, it takes *forever*
to get one of them tipped upright. It's like herding turtles.
How this is a recipe for the Year Of The Linux Desktop,
escapes me. The above web page isn't helping.

If you were serious about your campaign, you'd send 100 serialized
USB sticks to each Public Library. Then, on the KDE web page,
when everything is staged, you'd have the users sign out the
stick at the library, and bring it back later. Or, be charged
a nominal fee (similar to a late book charge). Libraries do not
enjoy being dragged into every crazy assed scheme, but they
were the point of contact here for FreeNet. You could fill
out a FreeNet sheet, show your drivers license to attest to
the details, and the sheet was then forwarded to FreeNet.
There isn't really a FreeNet here any more, but that's how
they got some people hooked up on an "hour a week" dialup plan.
The local FreeNet modem front end was donated by a high tech company.

Pressed DVDs would be cheaper, but the instant response in the
audience would be "hey, I don't got a DVD drive". That's why
I can't utter magic words like that.

Paul

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 21:17:15 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in <101qr6t$158p2$1@dont-email.me>:

On Wed, 6/4/2025 8:41 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

“Your computer is toast

“Running Windows 10 on your computer? On October 14 Microsoft wants to
turn it into junk.

“It may seem like it continues to work after that date for a bit, but
when Microsoft stops support for Windows 10, your perfectly good
computer will be officially obsolete.

“Windows 10 will degrade as more and more bugs come to light. With
nobody to correct them, you risk being hacked. Your data, identity, and
control over your device could be stolen.

“New versions of your apps will not run, but Microsoft will still block
you from upgrading to the next version of Windows until you buy the new
computer they decide.”

Scary? Yes. Exaggerated? No. Because that’s what Microsoft really wants
to do. Just like it has done so many times before.

<https://kde.org/for/w10-exiles/>

Was that a picture of one of the KDE staffers computer room ?

Maybe that's their build server ? :-)

Seriously, I scanned the page and I don't see an action plan.
How exactly will the software climb onto the PC ?

That's what is missing from the Year Of The Linux Desktop,
is the Concierge service.

I've written about this before. Someone could start a business along the
lines of "Geek Squad" that caters to Linux.

Because when you get down to it, what is the "concierge service" for
Windows? Seems to be Geek Squad, or any number of local establishments.

For Linux, one might be lucky and find a local establishment that knows it
-- or a friendly LUG. I know one elderly lady (who posts as "Bliss") who
got help from SFLUG. I know another grandma who uses Linux _and_ Usenet,
who has a daughter who is Linux-savvy.

Remember, your average user is not a C.S.
graduate, and with the sorry state of Google searches these days, even
the best-prepared website is never going to show up in a search.

You know as well as I do that you don't need to be a "C.S. graduate" to
use Linux. It's not 2015 anymore. I daresay Linux is easier to install
and use than Windows.

"But what about MS Office?" someone may ask: For the most part,
Office 365 works on Linux. (Alas, Access doesn't. That's the only
reason I haven't moved my parents to Linux.)

How do I put the ISO on the USB stick ?

Beats me. How do you do it for Windows?

Some of the people,
just a few, will remember trying one USB stick tool after another,
and ending up with nothing to show for their trouble. And those are the people who will be offering advice.

A few of the users, will try to download the ISO onto a FAT32 partition
for temporary storage. Say, a 6GB Ubuntu DVD.
And you know what happens when you do that. I've done that *several*
times by accident. Today, there are no more FAT32 partitions in the
active computer room. When the WinXP machine died, the interest in FAT32
went with it.

I looked at gstatcounter today, and I saw some strange patterns in
there. What's weird about the patterns, is there are real world
events... and the patterns in gstatcounter are delayed by two or three months. Nothing seems to "align immediately" exactly. It's my suspicion,
that Microsoft is winning by playing this game. But it's a natural
outcome. The path of least resistance is being followed. I've already
heard one USENETter say the fateful words,
"maybe I should buy a Win11 machine". Not many would have the balls to
admit something like that. Normally that sort of thing happens silently.

That's why I'm telling you that Concierge service is the only campaign
that will work. Unless a loaded USB stick shows up in a mailer on each
users doorstep, it's not gonna happen.

Google has an offering for the Chrome Book OS, and the offering is a bit
more friendly than the competition. Unfortunately, their GUI is not very expressive. When the installer boots, it should just say "um, we don't install on desktops, hey, try your laptop".
Instead, the interface just freezes... as a status code. When I booted
my laptop with that installer USB, I finally made it past the first
screen. But had no intention of installing it on my laptop.

If it's one thing I know about helping users, it takes *forever*
to get one of them tipped upright. It's like herding turtles.
How this is a recipe for the Year Of The Linux Desktop,
escapes me. The above web page isn't helping.

If you were serious about your campaign, you'd send 100 serialized USB
sticks to each Public Library. Then, on the KDE web page,
when everything is staged, you'd have the users sign out the stick at
the library, and bring it back later. Or, be charged a nominal fee
(similar to a late book charge). Libraries do not enjoy being dragged
into every crazy assed scheme, but they were the point of contact here
for FreeNet. You could fill out a FreeNet sheet, show your drivers
license to attest to the details, and the sheet was then forwarded to FreeNet.
There isn't really a FreeNet here any more, but that's how they got some people hooked up on an "hour a week" dialup plan.
The local FreeNet modem front end was donated by a high tech company.

Pressed DVDs would be cheaper, but the instant response in the audience
would be "hey, I don't got a DVD drive". That's why I can't utter magic
words like that.

Thanks for the history lesson, but I'm just as frustrated with the
"Freenet" model as you are.

Back in 1994, our enterprise wanted to be a "Freenet". Turns out there
was a licensing fee: $20K, IIRC. Uh, no thanks -- so we became a
"paynet". "Freenet" seemed like a scam.

With careful cost accounting, we figured we could break even with a
reasonable number of customers at $2/mo. That became our "charter
member" fee, and we set it up so that folks could pay up to a year
in advance before we raised the fees to $12/mo. These were fair
prices for a BBS community that was itching to get on the Internet.

"Support forums" were Usenet groups, and we had one especially for
Linux. Today, forums like alt.os.linux and alt.os.linux.mint exist, and
are fairly active. No reason that someone on Usenet couldn't get
themselves running on Linux, as long as they can write to a USB drive
and boot it. Linux Mint also has web forums for support. It's no
different than most people experience with Windows.

I will say one thing: I once contacted Microsoft Support about getting
a download link for Access. (I was going to try to run it on proton, on Linux.) They were courteous and helpful. If someone started a service
like that for Linux, they'd be sitting on a goldmine.

--
-v ASUS TUF DASH F15 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3060 Mobile 6G
OS: Linux 6.8.0-60-generic D: Mint 22.1 DE: Xfce 4.18 Mem: 258G
"No one ever said "if I'd only spent more time in the office""

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On Wed, 6/4/2025 10:44 PM, vallor wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 21:17:15 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in

How do I put the ISO on the USB stick ?

Beats me. How do you do it for Windows?

This tool used to be hosted on the microsoftstore.com . That's
a site where you could buy Windows 8 at the time. Like all USB stick
utilities, it has its own peculiarities (some of the tools *insist*
you put a partition on the stick, then they immediately *erase*
the partition). This should handle Vista (truly obsolete now) to W11.

Windows7-USB-DVD-Download-Tool.exe

And the other one is Rufus.ie tool.
Which does all sorts of stuff.

Only a burned DVD has hybrid behavior. I don't think
either tool manages that, and you have to decide which
boot mode the stick will support (UEFI or legacy, pick one).

Anything to do with booting, is always a rough ride. Imagine
for example, you own a Dell and someone passes you what they
thought was a decent USB stick preparation. The fun is only
beginning. I dealt with a user once, their Dell was basically
"crazy". It wouldn't do anything you asked it to do. Imagine
getting Linux on that machine. It would try your patience as
a helper. You can't even visualize what is going on and
what to do next. Like, sometimes I can tell from a response,
the shift lock is on. But every response the machine made,
made no sense.

Paul

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

W dniu 5.06.2025 o 03:17, Paul pisze:

Seriously, I scanned the page and I don't see an action plan.
How exactly will the software climb onto the PC ?

This is totally unfair!!! KDE advertise Plasma, not distro. Distros are
listed under URL linked in article:

<https://kde.org/distributions/>

And I try first of them:

<https://fedoraproject.org/kde/>

At the bottom of the page is button: "Download Now", it jump us to the:

https://fedoraproject.org/kde/download

And bellow this page we have... surprise!

quote:"Fedora Media Writer
Getting started with Fedora Linux is easier than ever. All you need is a
4GB USB flash drive and the Fedora Media Writer utility.

After Fedora Media Writer is installed, you can use it to write a "Live" version of Fedora Linux to a flash drive. You will then be able to boot
from your flash drive and try Fedora Linux out without making any
permanent changes to your computer. Once you are hooked, transferring
Fedora Linux from the flash drive to your computer's hard drive is a
matter of clicking a few buttons.* Learn more"

So your nag that people don't know what to do with USB stick and ISO
files are BS and evil propaganda!

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

W dniu 5.06.2025 o 05:32, 🇵🇱Jacek Marcin Jaworski🇵🇱 pisze:

W dniu 5.06.2025 o 03:17, Paul pisze:

Seriously, I scanned the page and I don't see an action plan.
How exactly will the software climb onto the PC ?

This is totally unfair!!! KDE advertise Plasma, not distro. Distros are listed under URL linked in article:

<https://kde.org/distributions/>

And I try first of them:

<https://fedoraproject.org/kde/>

At the bottom of the page is button: "Download Now", it jump us to the:

https://fedoraproject.org/kde/download

And bellow this page we have... surprise!

quote:"Fedora Media Writer

Other approach:

Start your fav browser, type in the URL/search bar:

how to install kubuntu

In duckduckgo.com first link is:

<https://userbase.kde.org/Kubuntu/Installation>

Which not only allow check ISO file (with MD5 sum), but also guide how
to write it on USB stick or DVD optical disc. Below is detailed
instruction how install Kubuntu (screen shots included).


Other approach:

On the page: <https://kde.org/distributions/> I click:

<https://neon.kde.org/download>

And bellow this page we have... surprise!

quote: "Install using KDE ISO Image Writer.

Download the ISO file, use KDE ISO Image Writer (or on Mac we recommend
ROSA Image Writer) to make a bootable USB drive with the ISO file and
reboot using that USB drive.

KDE ISO Image Writer
ROSA Image Writer for Mac OS X
GPG signatures signed by KDE neon ISO Signing Key (0x45F4C354638D1F29)
are available alongside the ISOs for verification."


But to be honest, not all distros seems to be that friendly like Fedora
or Kubuntu or KDE Neon... But who care with such odds?!?

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 00:41:09 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

“Your computer is toast

“Running Windows 10 on your computer? On October 14 Microsoft wants to
turn it into junk.

“It may seem like it continues to work after that date for a bit, but when >Microsoft stops support for Windows 10, your perfectly good computer will
be officially obsolete.

“Windows 10 will degrade as more and more bugs come to light. With nobody >to correct them, you risk being hacked. Your data, identity, and control
over your device could be stolen.

“New versions of your apps will not run, but Microsoft will still block
you from upgrading to the next version of Windows until you buy the new >computer they decide.”

Scary? Yes. Exaggerated? No. Because that’s what Microsoft really wants to >do. Just like it has done so many times before.

The computer on which I'm writing this is still running Windows XP.

When my Windows 7 laptop was stolen I replaced it by a Windows 10
machine, and insisted that they install the 32-bit version.

I've not really had occasdion to call Microsoft support, though I'm
aware that the help files will probably become inaccessible after
Microsoft ceases its support, and follows its planned obsolescence
policy.

But if I downgrade to Windows 11, a lot of my software will stop
weorking.

There should be a law that says that when any commercial software firm
ceases to support software, it should immediately be put in the public
domain and made open source. A lot of institutions have "digitised"
all sorts of records, and in some cases have destroyed the hard copy originals,. and as time goes by the digitised records become
inaccessible, largely because of the planned obsolescence policies of
bodies like Microsoft.







--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On Wed, 6/4/2025 11:32 PM, 🇵🇱Jacek Marcin Jaworski🇵🇱 wrote:

W dniu 5.06.2025 o 03:17, Paul pisze:

Seriously, I scanned the page and I don't see an action plan.
How exactly will the software climb onto the PC ?

This is totally unfair!!! KDE advertise Plasma, not distro. Distros are listed under URL linked in article:

<https://kde.org/distributions/>

And I try first of them:

<https://fedoraproject.org/kde/>

At the bottom of the page is button: "Download Now", it jump us to the:

https://fedoraproject.org/kde/download

And bellow this page we have... surprise!

quote:"Fedora Media Writer
Getting started with Fedora Linux is easier than ever. All you need is a 4GB USB flash drive and the Fedora Media Writer utility.

After Fedora Media Writer is installed, you can use it to write a "Live" version of Fedora Linux to a flash drive. You will then be able to boot from your flash drive and try Fedora Linux out without making any permanent changes to your computer. Once

you are hooked, transferring Fedora Linux from the flash drive to your computer's hard drive is a matter of clicking a few buttons.* Learn more"

So your nag that people don't know what to do with USB stick and ISO files are BS and evil propaganda!

Under the behavior tab, in "Files Dropped", the Fedora Media Writer
has references to "GoogleUpdater".

https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/a83e7eb878f1e6eb40f12da647ac03b1e3ed5cb3026bc74a1d4ce9ee24d4262f/behavior

C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\137.0.7129.0
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\137.0.7129.0\Crashpad
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\137.0.7129.0\Crashpad\attachments C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\137.0.7129.0\Crashpad\metadata C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\137.0.7129.0\Crashpad\reports C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\137.0.7129.0\uninstall.cmd C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\137.0.7129.0\updater.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7156.0
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7156.0\Crashpad
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7156.0\Crashpad\attachments C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7156.0\Crashpad\metadata C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7156.0\Crashpad\reports C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7156.0\uninstall.cmd C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7156.0\updater.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7194.0
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7194.0\Crashpad
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7194.0\Crashpad\attachments C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7194.0\Crashpad\metadata C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7194.0\Crashpad\reports C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7194.0\uninstall.cmd C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\GoogleUpdater\138.0.7194.0\updater.exe

Any idea what that is doing in a QT6 package ?

Paul

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On 6/4/25 5:41 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

“It may seem like it continues to work after that date for a bit, but when Microsoft stops support for Windows 10, your perfectly good computer will
be officially obsolete.

That usually does not happen, unless you keep trying to put the
latest software on it. If you freeze your OS, your should not
see any of this stuff.

KDE is a nice GUI for Linux. It was what Windows 7 was based on.
But keep in mind, if you are deciding to switch from Windows
to Linux, that Linux is much different. Most of the programs,
outside of browsers and eMail, are different. And there is zero
Adobe support. You will have to learn a lot of new things and
different ways of doing things.

Fortunately you can burn Live USB's and fly before you buy.
There are several GUI options.

https://fedoraproject.org/spins

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On Thu, 05 Jun 2025 07:06:50 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

There should be a law that says that when any commercial software firm
ceases to support software, it should immediately be put in the public
domain and made open source.

You really think Government intervention can make things better?

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

Wow.

Okay, I am a Linux shop and a YUGE advocate of Fedora Linux.
I have to say though, the hype over W10 ending is really
overblown. W11 is essentially W10 with an even stupider
interface. Install Open Shell on it and you won't be able
to tell the difference, unless you deliberately go looking
for it. All your programs should still work. With Open
Shell installed, there is really very little new to learn.

Transitioning to Linux is a YUGE undertaking. Not
minor like W10 to W11.

My 2 cents.

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On 6/4/25 11:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 23:26:59 -0700, T wrote:

Transitioning to Linux is a YUGE undertaking. Not minor like W10 to
W11.

The problem is that transitioning to Dimdows 11, for those who haven’t already done it, will mean junking their existing hardware and buying new machines. Linux offers the option to keep their existing hardware working, often even better than before.

There are tons of ways around having to junk your
old, functional computer to run W11. Rufus comes
to mind.

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On 6/4/25 11:26 PM, T wrote:

Wow.

Okay, I am a Linux shop and a YUGE advocate of Fedora Linux.
I have to say though, the hype over W10 ending is really
overblown.  W11 is essentially W10 with an even stupider
interface.  Install Open Shell on it and you won't be able
to tell the difference, unless you deliberately go looking
for it.  All your programs should still work.  With Open
Shell installed, there is really very little new to learn.

Transitioning to Linux is a YUGE undertaking.  Not
minor like W10 to W11.

My 2 cents.

And there a ton of ways around W11's ridiculous hardware
requirements

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 23:26:59 -0700, T wrote:

Transitioning to Linux is a YUGE undertaking. Not minor like W10 to
W11.

The problem is that transitioning to Dimdows 11, for those who haven’t already done it, will mean junking their existing hardware and buying new machines. Linux offers the option to keep their existing hardware working, often even better than before.

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On Thu, 6/5/2025 2:43 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 23:26:59 -0700, T wrote:

Transitioning to Linux is a YUGE undertaking. Not minor like W10 to
W11.

The problem is that transitioning to Dimdows 11, for those who haven’t already done it, will mean junking their existing hardware and buying new machines. Linux offers the option to keep their existing hardware working, often even better than before.

I think I've already shown you my *licensed* copy of Windows 11
running on a *4th gen* computer. And I don't think it has
an MSA, either. Like T says, it's just a copy of windows 10,
when you run it on ancient hardware like that -- just about
all the Windows 11 features under the hood, switch themselves off.

I haven't tried it, but you should be able to run Windows 11 on
less than 1GB of RAM. That's because 8GB of RAM does not need to be
reserved for AI (Qualcomm), and the 2.6GB sandbox image is not
required either (sandbox disabled). It really should not need
more RAM than Win10 at that point.

to simulate low RAM, you can edit the BCD and cause the
OS to not use all the RAM the machine has. You don't
even need to pull RAM sticks out of the machine and throw
them on the floor. You can disable some RAM using bcdedit.

Paul

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 23:52:12 -0700, T wrote:

And there a ton of ways around W11's ridiculous hardware requirements

This is why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth
nothing.

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XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy

On 6/5/25 1:24 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 23:52:12 -0700, T wrote:

And there a ton of ways around W11's ridiculous hardware requirements

This is why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth
nothing.

Windows is indeed a irredeemable piece of crap.
At best it can only be described as a kludge.

Unfortunately, if the programs you need to run are
only written for Windows, you are stuck with it.
99% of everyone is stuck with it.

Fortunately, Windows can be made somewhat stable with
a few simple steps. Basically you debloat the hell
out of it. Tiny 11 comes to mind. And you remove
Fast Startup and shut the damned thing down at night.

You can run Windows programs in Linux with the Wine
application layer, but Wine is alpha stage code at
best. Wine can be miserable to try to get to
run your Windows programs, if at all -- speaking of
your time being worth nothing.

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["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On 2025-06-05, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

“Your computer is toast

“Running Windows 10 on your computer? On October 14 Microsoft wants to
turn it into junk.

“It may seem like it continues to work after that date for a bit, but when Microsoft stops support for Windows 10, your perfectly good computer will
be officially obsolete.

“Windows 10 will degrade as more and more bugs come to light. With nobody to correct them, you risk being hacked. Your data, identity, and control
over your device could be stolen.

“New versions of your apps will not run, but Microsoft will still block
you from upgrading to the next version of Windows until you buy the new computer they decide.”

Scary? Yes. Exaggerated? No. Because that’s what Microsoft really wants to do. Just like it has done so many times before.

<https://kde.org/for/w10-exiles/>

Essentially, Microsoft are making an Operating System that can't
actually operate your computer, and convicing users that the deficiency
is with them, the user and not with the OS, which just fails to run.
The pertinent point here is that the requires system specs aren't really
a "requirement", but a deficiency of the OS.

This is an inversion of GNU/Linux, which is intended to run on whatever hardware it could feasibly run on.

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["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On 2025-06-05, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Thu, 05 Jun 2025 07:06:50 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

There should be a law that says that when any commercial software firm
ceases to support software, it should immediately be put in the public
domain and made open source.

You really think Government intervention can make things better?

Well, copyright is a product of the government and the government
determines the length of copyright protection. So the government is
already involved.


However, enforcing it become open source would be a new intervention,
and one I don't think is warranted. Not when we already have a choice
in many circumstances to chose something that is already open source.

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On 2025-06-05 04:44, vallor wrote:

...

I will say one thing: I once contacted Microsoft Support about getting
a download link for Access. (I was going to try to run it on proton, on Linux.) They were courteous and helpful. If someone started a service
like that for Linux, they'd be sitting on a goldmine.

Long ago, I got a support phone call from SuSE, trying to help me.

You got I think it was 3 months free phone support for installation.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On 2025-06-05 04:44, vallor wrote:

"But what about MS Office?" someone may ask: For the most part,
Office 365 works on Linux. (Alas, Access doesn't. That's the only
reason I haven't moved my parents to Linux.)

Funny. Few people use Access :-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On 2025-06-05 19:44, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 13:29:29 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-06-05 04:44, vallor wrote:

"But what about MS Office?" someone may ask: For the most part, Office
365 works on Linux. (Alas, Access doesn't. That's the only reason I
haven't moved my parents to Linux.)

Funny. Few people use Access :-)

The ones that do have built their interfaces around Access and are locked
to it forever.

Yes, that is so.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On 2025-06-05 08:56, T wrote:

On 6/4/25 11:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 23:26:59 -0700, T wrote:

Transitioning to Linux is a YUGE undertaking.  Not minor like W10 to
W11.

The problem is that transitioning to Dimdows 11, for those who haven’t
already done it, will mean junking their existing hardware and buying new
machines. Linux offers the option to keep their existing hardware
working,
often even better than before.

There are tons of ways around having to junk your
old, functional computer to run W11.  Rufus comes
to mind.

Most of the methods I have seen involve a fresh install of W11 instead
of an upgrade of W10→11

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 13:29:29 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-06-05 04:44, vallor wrote:

"But what about MS Office?" someone may ask: For the most part, Office
365 works on Linux. (Alas, Access doesn't. That's the only reason I
haven't moved my parents to Linux.)

Funny. Few people use Access :-)

The ones that do have built their interfaces around Access and are locked
to it forever.

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On Thu, 6/5/2025 1:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-06-05 08:56, T wrote:

On 6/4/25 11:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 23:26:59 -0700, T wrote:

Transitioning to Linux is a YUGE undertaking.  Not minor like W10 to
W11.

The problem is that transitioning to Dimdows 11, for those who haven’t >>> already done it, will mean junking their existing hardware and buying new >>> machines. Linux offers the option to keep their existing hardware working, >>> often even better than before.

There are tons of ways around having to junk your
old, functional computer to run W11.  Rufus comes
to mind.

Most of the methods I have seen involve a fresh install of W11 instead of an upgrade of W10→11

You can plug in the Rufus stick, run setup.exe off it,
and partake of the bypasses it provides. That means,
not only can you boot the Rufus stick and do a Clean Install,
you can also use it as a container for an Upgrade Install.

Paul

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On Jun 4, 2025 at 8:41:09 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

“Your computer is toast

No it isn't.

“Running Windows 10 on your computer? On October 14 Microsoft wants to
turn it into junk.

No they don't. This is all nonsense.

Windows 10 will continue to run just fine. Windows 10 will continue to get AV updates. I am still getting Windows Defender updates to Windows 8.1.

Windows 10 will have a longer life than XP did.

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 19:52:43 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 13:29:29 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

The ones that do have built their interfaces around Access and are
locked to it forever.

Yes, that is so.

Well, either they consider their IT a strategic competitive asset, or they don’t. If they do, then betting their business on inflexible software that
is incapable of adapting to modern needs is going to rebound on them
sooner or later.

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On Thu, 05 Jun 2025 23:23:44 +0000, Tyrone wrote:

Windows 10 will continue to run just fine.

Only if you have the expertise to cope with its (in)compatibility quirks.
Which not many Windows users do.

Windows 10 will have a longer life than XP did.

XP actually had an artificially-extended life, because Microsoft needed something to compete with the Linux-based netbooks, and Vista certainly wasn’t cutting it.

10 doesn’t seem to have any corresponding excuse.

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 02:28:43 -0700, T wrote:

Unfortunately, if the programs you need to run are only written for
Windows, you are stuck with it. 99% of everyone is stuck with it.

Actually, the proportion is a bit less nowadays. Free Software tends to be invisible in the marketplace because money isn’t changing hands.

You can run Windows programs in Linux with the Wine application layer,
but Wine is alpha stage code at best.

It seems to be good enough to run the majority of Windows-specific games
on the Steam Deck. That product has created a whole new market category, handheld PC gaming, where the Windows-based competitors are really
struggling to gain a foothold.

And, you have to admit, games are among the most difficult things to run properly under an emulator.

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 03:07:57 -0700, T wrote:

When M$ see your system does not have the requirements to run its stupid spyware, it just wont install it. Yippee!

Or maybe it will just say it’s not installing it.

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On 6/5/25 4:31 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 02:28:43 -0700, T wrote:

Unfortunately, if the programs you need to run are only written for
Windows, you are stuck with it. 99% of everyone is stuck with it.

Actually, the proportion is a bit less nowadays. Free Software tends to be invisible in the marketplace because money isn’t changing hands.

My biggest problem, and that is Windows or Linux, is trying
to get users to learn new things when I can no longer get
their old stuff to work under whatever operating system
they are running.

A prime example of this is LibreOffice, which I do use myself.
LO has to be, not similar, but "EXACTLY" the same as M$ Office
or they blow a cork. Oh and they wont pay for the upgrade
to the new version of M$ Office.

Gimp and Inkscape are great product, but they are not EXACTLY
the same as their Adobe's products.

It seems that most customer have a window in they brains
where they learn new things, but after that, their brains
shut down. I have had a customer jump out of her chair
once, whilst instilling something their business owner
directed me to install (his choice, not mine) and scream
in my face "I CAN'T LEARN ANYTHING NEW!!!"

So if you are going to transition to Linux from Windows,
you have to be able to learn different ways of doing things.

My office is a Linux office. I support Windows and have
several qemu-kvm virtual machines of various Windows releases,
but only use them for supporting customers. The differences
do not bother me. But then again, in this business, you
are always learning. It never stops.

I do adore bigger, better, faster. One of my major gripes
with Windows and Wine especially, is that it is neither.
Both are typically one step forward and two steps backwards.

I do use GNU Cash. It is has a bloody difficult learning curve,
but once you get there, it is a wonderful tool. I can't see
any of my customer abandoning QuickBooks (a Linux killer) for it.
Too much "new" to learn.

You can run Windows programs in Linux with the Wine application layer,
but Wine is alpha stage code at best.

It seems to be good enough to run the majority of Windows-specific games
on the Steam Deck. That product has created a whole new market category, handheld PC gaming, where the Windows-based competitors are really
struggling to gain a foothold.

And, you have to admit, games are among the most difficult things to run properly under an emulator.

Wine is actually an application layer. They get their nickers
in a twist if you call it an emulator. Chuckle.

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 17:36:42 -0700, T wrote:

A prime example of this is LibreOffice, which I do use myself. LO has to
be, not similar, but "EXACTLY" the same as M$ Office or they blow a
cork.

Interesting, because Microsoft Office is notorious for formatting inconsistencies just from moving documents between different machines. If
they will put up with that, why should they complain about LibreOffice,
which does a better job anyway?

Oh and they wont pay for the upgrade to the new version of M$ Office.

But they will pay for Adobe’s products??

Wine is actually an application layer. They get their nickers in a
twist if you call it an emulator.

Try looking up “emulator” in the dictionary?

Wine is no more “not an emulator” than GNU is “not Unix”.

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 05:22:32 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Thu, 05 Jun 2025 07:06:50 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

There should be a law that says that when any commercial software firm
ceases to support software, it should immediately be put in the public
domain and made open source.

You really think Government intervention can make things better?

It would depend on the nature of the intervention. In this case, yes.

People before profit.




--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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On 6/5/25 6:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 17:36:42 -0700, T wrote:

A prime example of this is LibreOffice, which I do use myself. LO has to
be, not similar, but "EXACTLY" the same as M$ Office or they blow a
cork.

Interesting, because Microsoft Office is notorious for formatting inconsistencies just from moving documents between different machines. If they will put up with that, why should they complain about LibreOffice,
which does a better job anyway?

Oh and they wont pay for the upgrade to the new version of M$ Office.

But they will pay for Adobe’s products??

Once and nothing after that

Wine is actually an application layer. They get their nickers in a
twist if you call it an emulator.

Try looking up “emulator” in the dictionary?

Wine is no more “not an emulator” than GNU is “not Unix”.

Excellent point.

Here is what the grouches at Wine say about it:

https://www.winehq.org/about

Wine (originally an acronym for "Wine Is Not an Emulator")
is a compatibility layer capable of running Windows applications
on several POSIX-compliant operating systems, such as Linux,
macOS, & BSD. Instead of simulating internal Windows logic
like a virtual machine or emulator, Wine translates Windows
API calls into POSIX calls on-the-fly, eliminating the
performance and memory penalties of other methods and
allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications
into your desktop.

It is still an emulator though.

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 21:46:02 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/5/25 6:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

But they will pay for Adobe’s products??

Once and nothing after that

But all Adobe’s stuff is rentware now. Stop paying and you lose control of your own work.

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On 6/5/25 10:41 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 21:46:02 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/5/25 6:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

But they will pay for Adobe’s products??

Once and nothing after that

But all Adobe’s stuff is rentware now. Stop paying and you lose control of your own work.

And Autocad, Solidworks, M$ Office 365, QuickBooks Desktop,
and several others too. I personally despise rentware.

Autocad and Solidworks are now so expensive to rent
that it puts small businesses out of business or on to
other products.

These customers have older revisions. And often times
they are on the latest OS and are pissed that their
old stuff stopped working properly.

Best solution is to run an older OS in a virtual machine
with their old software loaded on it. I do this with
Fedora 39 so I can run Wine 9.1 to get around all the
accursed bugs Wine has added to their current versions.

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On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 23:08:28 -0700, T wrote:

These customers have older revisions. And often times they are on the
latest OS and are pissed that their old stuff stopped working properly.

Would you entrust mission-critical business operations to obsolete,
unsupported software?

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Tyrone wrote:

Windows 10 will continue to get AV updates.

If you pay extra for that extended support, right?

--
"Stop the distribution of the day and fix the ones already out there.
Better yet settle on one and pool the resources to make a super
distribution that might actually have a prayer of killing off
Windows." - Flathead

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On Fri, 6/6/2025 4:02 AM, chrisv wrote:

Tyrone wrote:

Windows 10 will continue to get AV updates.

If you pay extra for that extended support, right?

These are updated daily. When you air-gap a Windows, you can "bring over"
a definition update and install it on an OS. I've done this on numerous occasions, to give the AV something to do :-) Naturally, there are two
parts to these -- if a definition needed a newer parser to read it, that's
an issue. For unsupported OSes, that is less likely to happen. At a minimum this gives a rough equivalent to a Cisco TALOS ClamAV (in other words,
limited heuristic capabilities, but still has some value and could
detect Sality inbound).

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/wdsi/defenderupdates

"Windows Defender in Windows 7 and Windows Vista 32-bit | 64-bit"

But effort is put into those, and it "counts as support". It
gets done, because it's a part of the active support structure
for the later OSes, and is just a derivative output file. Just as a lot
of "junior AV companies" may rely on ClamAV for their definition files.
Roughly a third of branded AV products are junk (but you have to start somewhere). For example, Malwarebytes started as a heuristic product,
only detecting "novel intrusions" and stopping them. Only later
did it get signatures to scan, and so it would have started on
a diet of ClamAV at first. It might take a staff of 200, to do a
viable ClamAV equivalent. Three guys in moms basement, can't keep up.

The junk AV products, don't have the 30 unpackers necessary to check
obfuscated files. And this shows up as a recurring pattern in
Google Virustotal scan results (product "could not open" file).
That's how you can tell what is junk, if it can't even handle an executable-packer. The companies with a staff of 1200-2000 are capable
of making worthwhile products (that's if they don't add too much FUD junk and snakeoil).

Paul

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On 6/6/25 12:30 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 23:08:28 -0700, T wrote:

These customers have older revisions. And often times they are on the
latest OS and are pissed that their old stuff stopped working properly.

Would you entrust mission-critical business operations to obsolete, unsupported software?

Yes and no. If the obsolete software runs your
mission-critical perfectly, then yes. Freeze
everything.

This is the objective behind Red Had Enterprise
Linux. Freeze old versions of Fedora. Bugs and
all. If the bugs do not affect you, all is good.
You essentially turn your computer into an "appliance".
Do not add things to it or upgrade it, ever.

On the other hand, if you are in a Kaisen situation,
you want the more recent stuff. Fedora is
a good example of next to bleeding edge. (Arch
is bleeding edge and not for the faint of heart.)

I adore Fedora. Fedora's tester do a damned good job.
hardly anything escapes them. They are not perfect
though. Next to perfect.

A really bad example is M$'s horrific updates. You
have a "supported" operating system that is constantly
breaking things. One customer told me that M$'s updates
have done more damage to his business than any virus
ever has.

I also do Payment Card Industry (PCI) consulting.
You are required to have a "supported" operating
system. And Point-of-Sale software is foolishly
(I cleaned up the swear word) written on Windows.
So every M$ update is a very stressful experience, not
to mention the down time they take.

So, pick your poison. The answer depends on your
situation. I would refuse to fly in a space craft
run on Windows, support or not.

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On 6/06/2025 1:08 am, Joel wrote:

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 23:26:59 -0700, T wrote:

Transitioning to Linux is a YUGE undertaking. Not minor like W10 to
W11.

The problem is that transitioning to Dimdows 11, for those who haven’t
already done it, will mean junking their existing hardware and buying new
machines. Linux offers the option to keep their existing hardware working, >> often even better than before.

Amen, but it should be noted, Linux is better than Windows on Win11-
capable machines, too.

In a related, but different, line ..... does Apple regularly Dead
End/Obsolete their Macs or is a (say) 2020 Mac still capable of running
the latest Mac OS??

A 2015 Mac??

A 2010 Mac??
--
Daniel70

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On 6/06/2025 10:36 am, T wrote:

On 6/5/25 4:31 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

<Snip>

I do use GNU Cash.  It is has a bloody difficult learning curve,
but once you get there, it is a wonderful tool.  I can't see
any of my customer abandoning QuickBooks (a Linux killer) for it.
Too much "new" to learn.

You can run Windows programs in Linux with the Wine application layer,
but Wine is alpha stage code at best.

It seems to be good enough to run the majority of Windows-specific games
on the Steam Deck. That product has created a whole new market category,
handheld PC gaming, where the Windows-based competitors are really
struggling to gain a foothold.

And, you have to admit, games are among the most difficult things to run
properly under an emulator.

Wine is actually an application layer.  They get their nickers
in a twist if you call it an emulator.  Chuckle.

T, what would be the possibility of setting your customers up to use
Linux .... and then, for those 'special' programs (like QuickBooks)
giving your customers a desktop icon called 'QuickBooks' which actually
boots Wine and opens 'QuickBooks'??

Sure, it could end up with several copies of Wine running, each
operating different Windows programs but it would be "DO"able, wouldn't it??
--
Daniel70

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On 6/5/25 4:23 PM, Tyrone wrote:

On Jun 4, 2025 at 8:41:09 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

“Your computer is toast

No it isn't.

“Running Windows 10 on your computer? On October 14 Microsoft wants to
turn it into junk.

No they don't. This is all nonsense.

Windows 10 will continue to run just fine. Windows 10 will continue to get AV updates. I am still getting Windows Defender updates to Windows 8.1.

Windows 10 will have a longer life than XP did.

Agreed!

Just get a good Anti Virus and W10 will run just fine without
M$'s pesky update that you risk crashing your machine every
time you install one. This is a blessing in disguise

If you want W11, use Rufus to make a Flash drive up with the
W11 ISO. Rufus gives you the ability to get around the
hardware requirements and the now mandatory spyware account.

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On 6/6/25 3:11 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 6/06/2025 1:08 am, Joel wrote:

In a related, but different, line ..... does Apple regularly Dead End/ Obsolete their Macs or is a (say) 2020 Mac still capable of running the latest Mac OS??

A 2015 Mac??

A 2010 Mac??

Yes they do. Apple is a total pain in the ass about it.
Get new hardware of no new OS.

OSx is to damned weird to use anyway.

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On 6/6/25 3:24 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

T, what would be the possibility of setting your customers up to use
Linux .... and then, for those 'special' programs (like QuickBooks)
giving your customers a desktop icon called 'QuickBooks' which actually
boots Wine and opens 'QuickBooks'??

The possibility would be zero. QuickBooks Desktop does not
run under Wine. Wine is alpha code at best and is riddled
with bugs.

Quickbooks is trying to get everyone to switch to their
online (cloud) version. Users hate it, but it would allow
for using it with virtually any OS'es browser. I personally
prefer programs that run on the "edge". "Cloud" is "client /
server" with a really crappy connection between the two.

A better was is to put Windows in a virtual machine, but
that required a user that is computer savvy. Computer savvy
users do not need me. And it would add a layer of complication.
It is better for me to just debloat Windows.

Chuckle, I did something like this to an ass hole at a custom's
site once. My handler had me install Firefox on everyone's computers
for security purposes. The Ass Hole gave me a bunch of lip
about switching from Internet Explorer. So I made Firefox's
icon Internet Explorer's icon. Left the name as Firefox though.

Next time I saw the ass hole, he pompously got in my face and
told me he could do everything with Internet Explorer and did
not need Firefox. Guess what icon he was clicking on. It was
everything I could do to keep from laughing in his face!

Sure, it could end up with several copies of Wine running, each
operating different Windows programs but it would be "DO"able, wouldn't
it??

Depends on the program. I have a few that run
wonderful under Wine. They are usually small programs
though. Anything complicated won't run.

And you risk a Wine update crashing them. Happens to me all
the time. Wine usually fixed them, but it usually
takes them over a year. I run a Fedora 39 virtual machine
with it older 6.1 version of Wine in it to get around Wine
7,8,9,10's bugs.

I wish I had more Linux users. They are mostly training and
configuring. Windows uses is fixing endless system issues.
Lately with W11, there are a bunch of what I call "one off"
issues, where they are the only once in the world with the
problem, So, the web is no help because no one else has
experienced it. So far I have always conquered though.
I "may" have said a few bad words under my breath.
Not saying.

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On 6/5/25 4:27 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 19:52:43 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 13:29:29 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

The ones that do have built their interfaces around Access and are
locked to it forever.

Yes, that is so.

Well, either they consider their IT a strategic competitive asset, or they don’t. If they do, then betting their business on inflexible software that is incapable of adapting to modern needs is going to rebound on them
sooner or later.

The problem is that most businesses do not want to adapt to
anything. They want what they have to continue working.
Period.

And you have the "I don't want to learn anything new " crowd.

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On 6/5/25 4:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-06-05 04:44, vallor wrote:

"But what about MS Office?" someone may ask:  For the most part,
Office 365 works on Linux.  (Alas, Access doesn't.  That's the only
reason I haven't moved my parents to Linux.)

Funny. Few people use Access :-)

I still use Lotus Approach. Wish it was still supported.

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On 6/06/2025 9:04 pm, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 3:11 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 6/06/2025 1:08 am, Joel wrote:

In a related, but different, line ..... does Apple regularly Dead End/
Obsolete their Macs or is a (say) 2020 Mac still capable of running
the latest Mac OS??

A 2015 Mac??

A 2010 Mac??

Yes they do.  Apple is a total pain in the ass about it.
Get new hardware of no new OS.

OSx is to damned weird to use anyway.

Thanks for reply, T.

Can't say I've heard any rumbling from them ..... maybe because they are
only, what, 15 - 20% of the Computing World.

Or is it just that I don't 'frequent' those places??
--
Daniel70

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:14:28 -0700, T wrote:

The problem is that most businesses do not want to adapt to anything.
They want what they have to continue working. Period.

And you have the "I don't want to learn anything new " crowd.

We had a users group with a yearly meeting. The users would submit
requests for enhancements that we would do if they were feasible.
Invariably when the new release was rolled out there were the 'What is
this? It didn't use to work like that!'.

Then there was an actual bug that I fixed that allowed unsupported
behavior. One site had exploited the bug and were upset when they could no longer attach the same resource to several different incidents.

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 22:11:41 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:

On 6/06/2025 9:04 pm, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 3:11 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 6/06/2025 1:08 am, Joel wrote:

In a related, but different, line ..... does Apple regularly Dead End/
Obsolete their Macs or is a (say) 2020 Mac still capable of running
the latest Mac OS??

A 2015 Mac??

A 2010 Mac??

Yes they do.  Apple is a total pain in the ass about it.
Get new hardware of no new OS.

OSx is to damned weird to use anyway.

Thanks for reply, T.

Can't say I've heard any rumbling from them ..... maybe because they are only, what, 15 - 20% of the Computing World.

Or is it just that I don't 'frequent' those places??

I don't know if Apple customers are insanely happy with the products or if
the moderators are iron fisted but on r/apple there seldom is heard a discouraging word.

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On Fri, 6/6/2025 6:24 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 6/06/2025 10:36 am, T wrote:

On 6/5/25 4:31 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

<Snip>

I do use GNU Cash.  It is has a bloody difficult learning curve,
but once you get there, it is a wonderful tool.  I can't see
any of my customer abandoning QuickBooks (a Linux killer) for it.
Too much "new" to learn.

You can run Windows programs in Linux with the Wine application layer, >>>> but Wine is alpha stage code at best.

It seems to be good enough to run the majority of Windows-specific games >>> on the Steam Deck. That product has created a whole new market category, >>> handheld PC gaming, where the Windows-based competitors are really
struggling to gain a foothold.

And, you have to admit, games are among the most difficult things to run >>> properly under an emulator.

Wine is actually an application layer.  They get their nickers
in a twist if you call it an emulator.  Chuckle.

T, what would be the possibility of setting your customers up to use Linux .... and then, for those 'special' programs (like QuickBooks) giving your customers a desktop icon called 'QuickBooks' which actually boots Wine and opens 'QuickBooks'??

Sure, it could end up with several copies of Wine running, each operating different Windows programs but it would be "DO"able, wouldn't it??

Commercial softwares use licensing mechanisms.
Those mechanisms aren't always compatible with WINE.

One guy wrote a piece of software, the software could
detect exactly where it was, whether it was in a VM,
under WINE, on native hardware. In fact, the location
capability it had at the time, was more impressive than
the software it was protecting.

WINE is not intended to defeat license mechanisms. Via
DMCA, you could find yourself in jail doing that. As
a consequence, there is a very fine line to tread, to
avoiding "trouble".

Paul

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On Fri, 6/6/2025 8:11 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 6/06/2025 9:04 pm, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 3:11 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 6/06/2025 1:08 am, Joel wrote:

In a related, but different, line ..... does Apple regularly Dead End/ Obsolete their Macs or is a (say) 2020 Mac still capable of running the latest Mac OS??

A 2015 Mac??

A 2010 Mac??

Yes they do.  Apple is a total pain in the ass about it.
Get new hardware of no new OS.

OSx is to damned weird to use anyway.

Thanks for reply, T.

Can't say I've heard any rumbling from them ..... maybe because they are only, what, 15 - 20% of the Computing World.

Or is it just that I don't 'frequent' those places??

They have used 68000, PowerPC, Intel, ARM.

That gives opportunities for throwing customers
onto the side of the road.

Paul

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On 6/6/25 11:14 AM, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:14:28 -0700, T wrote:

The problem is that most businesses do not want to adapt to anything.
They want what they have to continue working. Period.

And you have the "I don't want to learn anything new " crowd.

We had a users group with a yearly meeting. The users would submit
requests for enhancements that we would do if they were feasible.
Invariably when the new release was rolled out there were the 'What is
this? It didn't use to work like that!'.

Then there was an actual bug that I fixed that allowed unsupported
behavior. One site had exploited the bug and were upset when they could no longer attach the same resource to several different incidents.

You just can't win. :'(

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On 6/6/25 11:08 AM, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 22:11:41 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:

On 6/06/2025 9:04 pm, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 3:11 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 6/06/2025 1:08 am, Joel wrote:

In a related, but different, line ..... does Apple regularly Dead End/ >>>> Obsolete their Macs or is a (say) 2020 Mac still capable of running
the latest Mac OS??

A 2015 Mac??

A 2010 Mac??

Yes they do.  Apple is a total pain in the ass about it.
Get new hardware of no new OS.

OSx is to damned weird to use anyway.

Thanks for reply, T.

Can't say I've heard any rumbling from them ..... maybe because they are
only, what, 15 - 20% of the Computing World.

Or is it just that I don't 'frequent' those places??

I don't know if Apple customers are insanely happy with the products or if the moderators are iron fisted but on r/apple there seldom is heard a discouraging word.

The only Apple power uses I have come across are
graphics developers. The reset are just web and eMail.
They would be far better suited with a tablet,

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:14:28 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/5/25 4:27 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

Well, either they consider their IT a strategic competitive asset, or
they don’t. If they do, then betting their business on inflexible
software that is incapable of adapting to modern needs is going to
rebound on them sooner or later.

The problem is that most businesses do not want to adapt to anything.
They want what they have to continue working. Period.

That’s fine. So they get out-competed by somebody who pays more attention
to IT being a strategic competitive asset, and go out of business. No need
to feel any sympathy for them.

And you have the "I don't want to learn anything new " crowd.

For a business that persists in employing such people, see above.

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 01:18:26 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 12:30 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 23:08:28 -0700, T wrote:

These customers have older revisions. And often times they are on the
latest OS and are pissed that their old stuff stopped working
properly.

Would you entrust mission-critical business operations to obsolete,
unsupported software?

Yes and no. If the obsolete software runs your mission-critical
perfectly, then yes. Freeze everything.

Wrong answer. The answer is no.

This is the objective behind Red Had Enterprise Linux. Freeze old
versions of Fedora. Bugs and all.

That’s not how it works. They do fix bugs in RHEL, you know, for as long
as the old version is supported. That’s what’s meant by “supported”.

I also do Payment Card Industry (PCI) consulting.
You are required to have a "supported" operating system. And
Point-of-Sale software is foolishly (I cleaned up the swear word)
written on Windows.
So every M$ update is a very stressful experience, not to mention the
down time they take.

Seems like there is an opportunity for a competitor to bring out a non- Windows-based alternative that offers lower support costs.

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:15:20 -0700, T wrote:

I still use Lotus Approach.

Hopefully not for anything important.

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:04:46 -0700, T wrote:

OSx is to damned weird to use anyway.

It’s officially “Unix”, but it doesn’t quite work the way people expect when they think of “Unix”.

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On 6/6/25 5:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 01:18:26 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 12:30 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 23:08:28 -0700, T wrote:

These customers have older revisions. And often times they are on the >>>> latest OS and are pissed that their old stuff stopped working
properly.

Would you entrust mission-critical business operations to obsolete,
unsupported software?

Yes and no. If the obsolete software runs your mission-critical
perfectly, then yes. Freeze everything.

Wrong answer. The answer is no.

Hmmmmm.... It still depends on your situation.

This is the objective behind Red Had Enterprise Linux. Freeze old
versions of Fedora. Bugs and all.

That’s not how it works. They do fix bugs in RHEL, you know, for as long
as the old version is supported. That’s what’s meant by “supported”.

Ever try to get them to fix anything? I have. It is like
pulling teeth. Their "support" is horrible. They really,
really want to stay locked down. Your fix could break
others working software.

I also do Payment Card Industry (PCI) consulting.
You are required to have a "supported" operating system. And
Point-of-Sale software is foolishly (I cleaned up the swear word)
written on Windows.
So every M$ update is a very stressful experience, not to mention the
down time they take.

Seems like there is an opportunity for a competitor to bring out a non- Windows-based alternative that offers lower support costs.

You would think.

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On 6/6/25 5:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:04:46 -0700, T wrote:

OSx is to damned weird to use anyway.

It’s officially “Unix”, but it doesn’t quite work the way people expect
when they think of “Unix”.

The grouches on OSx forums get testy with you if you call
it Unix. They demand you call it POSIX. It is still Unix.
Chuckle.

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On 6/6/25 5:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:14:28 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/5/25 4:27 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

Well, either they consider their IT a strategic competitive asset, or
they don’t. If they do, then betting their business on inflexible
software that is incapable of adapting to modern needs is going to
rebound on them sooner or later.

The problem is that most businesses do not want to adapt to anything.
They want what they have to continue working. Period.

That’s fine. So they get out-competed by somebody who pays more attention to IT being a strategic competitive asset, and go out of business. No need
to feel any sympathy for them.

Small business, which is my customer base, thrive on keeping
costs down. They see IT as a despised expense to be avoided.
I really do no like walking into a new customer with them
thinking I am a con man. Backup? UPS power supplies?
Ethernet instead of wireless? Anti Virus? They act like I
am some sort of criminal. Well, until they get to know me.
There is a lot of fraud in all professions.

And you have the "I don't want to learn anything new " crowd.

For a business that persists in employing such people, see above.

There is a livestock feed store in town that has no computers.
They listed all the lost income their competitions had from
crashes and such. They are ahead of the curve cost wise.
So, it depends on how serious you are about your IT if you
actually get any benefit out of it. If you chisel your
IT to keep costs down, you wind up taking it in the shorts.

One customer I had, does not upgrade any hardware until
it dies. When their server went down, it really cost and
hurt them.

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 19:00:19 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 5:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:04:46 -0700, T wrote:

OSx is to damned weird to use anyway.

It’s officially “Unix”, but it doesn’t quite work the way people expect
when they think of “Unix”.

The grouches on OSx forums get testy with you if you call it Unix. They demand you call it POSIX. It is still Unix.

Calling it “POSIX” doesn’t really help <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOeku3hDzrM>.

This is why a lot of people say “*nix”. It dodges the trademark, even
as the name “Unix” still occurs in some of the details. For example,
the “Unix philosophy” is a core part of this. E.g. the system should
be a bunch of toolkits that implement only mechanism, without imposing
a particular policy: let the users/admins/developers implement
whatever policies they want with the help of those toolkits.

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On 6/6/25 5:47 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:15:20 -0700, T wrote:

I still use Lotus Approach.

Hopefully not for anything important.

I wrote my companies accounting system in it.
Yes, it is important.

I looked at Libre Office database. It is so buggy,
it is horrible to the point of being unusable.

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 19:13:23 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 5:47 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:15:20 -0700, T wrote:

I still use Lotus Approach.

Hopefully not for anything important.

I wrote my companies accounting system in it.
Yes, it is important.

I used to use FileMaker Pro on a Macintosh, for two main business-related systems that I had developed myself: my time-and-billing system, and
cheque reconciliation.

When I went to Linux, I wrote Python programs for doing both tasks: the
first on top of MySQL/MariaDB, the latter on top of SQLite.

For an example of the difference, my cheque reconciliation database
involved running AppleScript code to match up the stub entries and the statement entries. The Linux/Python version would finish the entire task
in the time it took for the Mac/AppleScript version to find the first
record.

I looked at Libre Office database. It is so buggy,
it is horrible to the point of being unusable.

LibreOffice Base has its own built-in DBMS, but it can also act as a
front-end to things like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite, among others -- and
either one of those can run rings around Microsoft Access. Think of
LO:Base just as a GUI front-end tool to a *real* DBMS.

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On 6/6/25 7:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 19:00:19 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 5:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:04:46 -0700, T wrote:

OSx is to damned weird to use anyway.

It’s officially “Unix”, but it doesn’t quite work the way people expect
when they think of “Unix”.

The grouches on OSx forums get testy with you if you call it Unix. They
demand you call it POSIX. It is still Unix.

Calling it “POSIX” doesn’t really help <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOeku3hDzrM>.

This is why a lot of people say “*nix”. It dodges the trademark, even
as the name “Unix” still occurs in some of the details. For example,
the “Unix philosophy” is a core part of this. E.g. the system should
be a bunch of toolkits that implement only mechanism, without imposing
a particular policy: let the users/admins/developers implement
whatever policies they want with the help of those toolkits.

That explains it! Thank you.

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On 6/6/25 7:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 19:13:23 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 5:47 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:15:20 -0700, T wrote:

I still use Lotus Approach.

Hopefully not for anything important.

I wrote my companies accounting system in it.
Yes, it is important.

I used to use FileMaker Pro on a Macintosh, for two main business-related systems that I had developed myself: my time-and-billing system, and
cheque reconciliation.

When I went to Linux, I wrote Python programs for doing both tasks: the
first on top of MySQL/MariaDB, the latter on top of SQLite.

For an example of the difference, my cheque reconciliation database
involved running AppleScript code to match up the stub entries and the statement entries. The Linux/Python version would finish the entire task
in the time it took for the Mac/AppleScript version to find the first
record.

It took me six months to write and has had constant maintenance
for the last 30 years. If I lose the ability to run it, I might
as well retire and close my business.

So I do feel for others in the same situation.

I looked at Libre Office database. It is so buggy,
it is horrible to the point of being unusable.

LibreOffice Base has its own built-in DBMS, but it can also act as a front-end to things like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite, among others -- and
either one of those can run rings around Microsoft Access. Think of
LO:Base just as a GUI front-end tool to a *real* DBMS.

The bugs. The bugs. The bugs. The bugs. The bugs.
The bugs. The bugs.

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 20:17:58 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 7:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 19:13:23 -0700, T wrote:

I looked at Libre Office database. It is so buggy,
it is horrible to the point of being unusable.

LibreOffice Base has its own built-in DBMS, but it can also act as a
front-end to things like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite, among others -- and
either one of those can run rings around Microsoft Access. Think of
LO:Base just as a GUI front-end tool to a *real* DBMS.

The bugs. The bugs. The bugs. The bugs. The bugs.
The bugs. The bugs.

What sorts of bugs? Are they still in current versions? Have you reported
any of them?

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On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 20:19:40 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 7:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

For example, the “Unix philosophy” is a core part of this. E.g. the
system should be a bunch of toolkits that implement only mechanism,
without imposing a particular policy: let the
users/admins/developers implement whatever policies they want with
the help of those toolkits.

That explains it! Thank you.

Also, I would say that macOS in its current form no longer conforms to
that “Unix philosophy”. For example, it enforces a particular GUI, inextricably bound into the OS kernel.

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On 6/6/25 9:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 20:17:58 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 7:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 19:13:23 -0700, T wrote:

I looked at Libre Office database. It is so buggy,
it is horrible to the point of being unusable.

LibreOffice Base has its own built-in DBMS, but it can also act as a
front-end to things like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite, among others -- and
either one of those can run rings around Microsoft Access. Think of
LO:Base just as a GUI front-end tool to a *real* DBMS.

The bugs. The bugs. The bugs. The bugs. The bugs.
The bugs. The bugs.

What sorts of bugs? Are they still in current versions? Have you reported
any of them?

Mainly crashing. I have not tried it in the last year or so.

I report a ton of bugs on writer and calc, but not on database.

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On 2025-06-07 08:22, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 9:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 20:17:58 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/6/25 7:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 19:13:23 -0700, T wrote:

I looked at Libre Office database.  It is so buggy,
it is horrible to the point of being unusable.

LibreOffice Base has its own built-in DBMS, but it can also act as a
front-end to things like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite, among others -- and >>>> either one of those can run rings around Microsoft Access. Think of
LO:Base just as a GUI front-end tool to a *real* DBMS.

The bugs. The bugs. The bugs. The bugs. The bugs.
The bugs. The bugs.

What sorts of bugs? Are they still in current versions? Have you reported
any of them?

Mainly crashing.   I have not tried it in the last year or so.

Doesn't crash for me.

I have a small database in MySQL which I currently access using LO.
Originally designed and used with Rekall.

I report a ton of bugs on writer and calc, but not on database.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On Sat, 6/7/2025 8:40 AM, chrisv wrote:

T wrote:

One customer I had, does not upgrade any hardware until
it dies. When their server went down, it really cost and
hurt them.

Crazy.

It's been proven, that computers are an optional part of
any business.

Just buy lots of boxes of three-part carbon paper,
and some pads of quad-rule paper for taking notes,
and that is enough for the job.

That's what I liked about my work. On the one hand,
we could be spending three or four million a year,
designing cavity-buster silicon chips. And if you
needed a phone installed at your desk there, the
order was filled out on three part carbon paper,
and the employees had robust ancient-looking desks
with "inbox" tray and "outbox" tray for the three
part carbon (one copy of your order goes there).

And if you phoned up and asked "where is that telephone
installation I asked for a month ago", you would hear
"ruffle-ruffle-ruffle" as the individual would
"fast index" the pile of paper on its desk :-)
That was the height of the comedy, the ruffling noise.
"Wow, that sounds faster than SQLITE".

We simply could not break the paper habit.

If an organization was <cough> "forced" to accept
computerized ordering, what happens then ?

The twits print off three copies of your order,
put one copy of fresh clean typing paper in
"Bobs inbox" and "away we go". Four weeks later,
"ya gotcha phone, what are ya complaining about now?".

They would promptly thwart the appearance of computer ordering,
by immediately printing off three copies.

So really, when push comes to shove, that old 386
in the storage room, wasn't doing much of anything
anyway. Three part carbon, saves the day. The employees
just love the paper. And a manager walking by,
knows when to order up another employee, based on
how tall the stack is in each in-basket.

Paul

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T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote at 02:13 this Saturday (GMT):

On 6/6/25 5:47 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:15:20 -0700, T wrote:

I still use Lotus Approach.

Hopefully not for anything important.

I wrote my companies accounting system in it.
Yes, it is important.

I looked at Libre Office database. It is so buggy,
it is horrible to the point of being unusable.

Is it a SQL based database? I've been doing fine for now just using
sqlite.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 15:50:06 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote at 02:13 this Saturday (GMT):

On 6/6/25 5:47 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:15:20 -0700, T wrote:

I still use Lotus Approach.

Hopefully not for anything important.

I wrote my companies accounting system in it.
Yes, it is important.

I looked at Libre Office database. It is so buggy,
it is horrible to the point of being unusable.

Is it a SQL based database? I've been doing fine for now just using
sqlite.

Strange, while both the Fedora and Ubuntu boxes have LibreOffice as part
of the default install neither have LibreOffice Base. It requires

sudo apt update
sudo apt install libreoffice-base

Must be good!

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On Sat, 6/7/2025 1:35 PM, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 15:50:06 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote at 02:13 this Saturday (GMT):

On 6/6/25 5:47 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2025 04:15:20 -0700, T wrote:

I still use Lotus Approach.

Hopefully not for anything important.

I wrote my companies accounting system in it.
Yes, it is important.

I looked at Libre Office database. It is so buggy,
it is horrible to the point of being unusable.

Is it a SQL based database? I've been doing fine for now just using
sqlite.

Strange, while both the Fedora and Ubuntu boxes have LibreOffice as part
of the default install neither have LibreOffice Base. It requires

sudo apt update
sudo apt install libreoffice-base

Must be good!

When you have Suite softwares, a certain set of them are considered
to be the "Core" modules, others can be optional. What you're seeing
isn't unusual. It's like someone getting a copy of MSOffice and
noticing that Visio isn't installed. Well, who would want that
anyway :-) We for some reason, had Visio at work, but my imagination
was not ignited by its presence. I'd rather have a copy of SuperPaint
(which combined elements of vector and pixmap graphics, back
in the day). I used to draw a lot of stick diagrams, and SuperPaint
was great for that, even if the handling of gridding left a bit
to be desired.

Paul

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On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 15:15:16 -0400, Paul wrote:

When you have Suite softwares, a certain set of them are considered to
be the "Core" modules, others can be optional. What you're seeing isn't unusual. It's like someone getting a copy of MSOffice and noticing that
Visio isn't installed. Well, who would want that

They could have left off Calc, Math, Impress, Draw and Writer as far as
I'm concerned. It seemed odd Base was the odd man out,.

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On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 15:15:16 -0400, Paul wrote:

I'd rather have a copy of SuperPaint (which combined elements of
vector and pixmap graphics, back in the day).

I remember that as a Macintosh program. Did you run it on the Mac? Though
there was a competitor, available under two names: “GraphicWorks” and “ComicWorks”, which was more flexible than SuperPaint because the pixmap blocks were objects within the vector drawing, rather than being a
separate layer. The “ComicWorks” branding was an attempt to highlight that feature as being particularly useful to artists creating comics.

There’s nothing directly like that now, but it’s easy enough to use a separate pixel tool (any or all of Gimp, Krita, MyPaint ...) and then embed/link the pixel graphics into Inkscape as objects within the vector drawing. Linking has the added advantage that updates to the original will
be reflected in the composite document.

Kind of like GraphicWorks/ComicWorks ...

We for some reason, had Visio at work, but my imagination was not
ignited by its presence.

I think Inkscape can do everything that Visio can/could do, as well.

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On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 08:52:02 -0400, Paul wrote:

It's been proven, that computers are an optional part of any business.

You think a business like Google or Facebook could run without computers?

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On Sat, 6/7/2025 8:27 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 08:52:02 -0400, Paul wrote:

It's been proven, that computers are an optional part of any business.

You think a business like Google or Facebook could run without computers?

I bet in Facebook, if you needed a phone for your desk,
there are three sheets of carbon paper controlling the
deployment of equipment and staff.

That is just the way those people roll. They love the
feel of paper, and the taller the stack of orders,
the more important you are.

We used to joke about this, because some of our projects
would have a "paperless office" angle to them. Then the
twit with the phone would show up, holding carbon paper
in hand, and "ruin the illusion".

We were huge consumers of paper. The main printer in my
department went through 2000 sheets per day. Four packs
of paper. The tray was motorized and the motor lifted
2000 sheets of paper, up against the intake roller. The printers
we had back then, were excellent. There's a lot of small
printers today, you wouldn't dream of running 60,000
sheets per month through them.

Paul

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On 6/7/25 5:27 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 08:52:02 -0400, Paul wrote:

It's been proven, that computers are an optional part of any business.

You think a business like Google or Facebook could run without computers?

I think you missed his sarcasm.

I read one a consultant would take paper calendars
and rolodexs into meetings with customers and offer
to show them how to use them. It shut up the
flim-flam con man remarks pretty quick.

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On 6/7/25 5:45 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Mainly crashing.   I have not tried it in the last year or so.

Doesn't crash for me.

I have a small database in MySQL which I currently access using LO. Originally designed and used with Rekall.

If you can get t to work without crashing, me thinks
it is time for me to revisit it. Thank you!

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On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 22:54:51 -0400, Paul wrote:

On Sat, 6/7/2025 8:27 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 08:52:02 -0400, Paul wrote:

It's been proven, that computers are an optional part of any business.

You think a business like Google or Facebook could run without
computers?

I bet in Facebook, if you needed a phone for your desk,
there are three sheets of carbon paper controlling the
deployment of equipment and staff.

You would lose that bet.

Remember, an early motto at the company was “move fast and break things”.

You think they even have phones on their desks? Why would they need them?

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On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 19:55:13 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/7/25 5:27 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 08:52:02 -0400, Paul wrote:

It's been proven, that computers are an optional part of any business.

You think a business like Google or Facebook could run without
computers?

I think you missed his sarcasm.

Apparently not, judging from his followup post.

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On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 14:45:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

I have a small database in MySQL which I currently access using LO.

I was going to say, why “small” with “MySQL”, and then I remember that, at
one time. KDE would run an entire personal instance of MySQL on every
logged-in GUI session, presumably for contacts databases and stuff like
that.

So, to those who automatically assume that MySQL/MariaDB is only suitable
for “heavyweight” uses ... beware of being misled by traditional proprietary-software marketing categories!

Originally designed and used with Rekall.

Ah <https://store.kde.org/p/1126366>, now that seems to be purely a GUI front-end tool, with no built-in DBMS of its own. Do you find LibreOffice
Base to be a better choice in that category?

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On 6/7/25 8:55 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 19:55:13 -0700, T wrote:

On 6/7/25 5:27 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jun 2025 08:52:02 -0400, Paul wrote:

It's been proven, that computers are an optional part of any business.

You think a business like Google or Facebook could run without
computers?

I think you missed his sarcasm.

Apparently not, judging from his followup post.

He could not resist!

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On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 03:55:37 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

You think they even have phones on their desks? Why would they need
them?

When the company went to a new phone system they forgot to provide
programming with phones. We cried ourselves to sleep.

I personally hate phones and I particularly dislike speaking to customer support people who obviously can speak their primary language much better
than English. Email works much better.

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On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 04:00:55 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

Ah <https://store.kde.org/p/1126366>, now that seems to be purely a GUI front-end tool, with no built-in DBMS of its own. Do you find
LibreOffice Base to be a better choice in that category?

And the last change log was 21 years ago. It didn't sound too good then.

For poking around I use DBeaver.

https://dbeaver.io/about/

It supports any database I use as well as a lot I've never heard of.

Cross-platform, with setup.exe, deb, rpm, snap, or flatpak.

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