"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:t4ukhc$1iuu$1@gioia.aioe.org...
I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine. Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
In the spirit of paying it forward I am working on a video series making "useful" molds on a PIECE Of Shi.. Er Sweet Potato Mini Manual Milling Machine. Most of these "molds" will not be commercial resale grade, but
if anybody wants to buy one... The goal is to give people who couldn't
afford anything better than a Seig X2 in one of its many variations or variations on paint scheme to do something fun and possibly useful.
....
--------------------
Thank you. You are very generous to donate your time to help beginners.
I've tried to find the line between purely hobby mills and those that
are adequate for serious work, for an inventor or mold maker perhaps. My Clausing would serve nicely if it was still in production, and
especially if it took R8 collets. https://www.wentztech.com/metalworking/equipment/clausing-8520-mill/
The generous spacing between 0.001" divisions allows finer positioning. http://www.lathes.co.uk/clausing%20vertical/img14.jpg
I haven't used a machine in the Sieg X2 class. The work envelope seems
close to the Clausing's. Power is lower but the Clausing's power and
rigidity aren't outstanding either.
I tried and pretty much gave up on an RF-31 due to its poor accuracy,
0.005" was possible with effort, 0.001" wasn't for too many
uncorrectable reasons. I though a 2-dimensional workspace would be
adequate for electronics, drilling control panels etc, but it wasn't
when I need to make a precision part for handling machinery. That job
went to the Clausing.
The other candidate I had a chance to use was the Enco variant of this: (short URL) https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-6-x-26-1-1-2-hp-vertical-mill-with-power-feed/g0729
HF offers one for $2500. (long URL) The reviews from experienced machinists are mostly good.
It appeared to be an updated version of the Clausing, with the same head
tilt and swivel (but not extend) and an R8 spindle. The major components
of the Enco were decently machined but the small parts looked like
someone made them by hand at home. I could improve their fit with a
file. The engineer who ordered it was Swiss and had adapted it for ER collets, which consumed most of the vertical working space.
I think a well-made version of it would be fine for someone who needs precision more than large working envelope. For milling small parts I
prefer the Clausing's ergonomics to a Bridgeport's.
I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine. Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
On 5/5/2022 9:05 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine. >>> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
[rambling trimmed]
Tangent trimmed.
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
[rambling trimmed]
.....
My Clausing would serve nicely if it was still in production, and
especially if it took R8 collets. https://www.wentztech.com/metalworking/equipment/clausing-8520-mill/
The other candidate I had a chance to use was the Enco variant of this: (short URL) https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-6-x-26-1-1-2-hp-vertical-mill-with-power-feed/g0729
HF offers one for $2500. (long URL) The reviews from experienced
machinists are mostly good.
On 5/5/2022 9:23 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/5/2022 9:05 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine. >>>> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
[rambling trimmed]
Tangent trimmed.
IF... you hadn't dismissed the whole purpose of my post as irrelevant rambling I might have answered your questions. Even while I was
deciding not to answer I had answers running through my mind. I did use
the Taig for a long time, tore it apart several times for both good and
bad reasons, and made a few of changes. I'm very familiar with it.
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:Have fun being superior in your own mind all by yourself.
On 5/5/2022 9:23 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/5/2022 9:05 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine. >>>>> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
[rambling trimmed]
Tangent trimmed.
IF... you hadn't dismissed the whole purpose of my post as irrelevant
rambling I might have answered your questions. Even while I was
deciding not to answer I had answers running through my mind. I did use
the Taig for a long time, tore it apart several times for both good and
bad reasons, and made a few of changes. I'm very familiar with it.
Well, not interested in the video of a person that rambles on and on about who knows what. They'll no doubt be really long and have no point.
Have fun with them though.
Without trying one, the Sieg X2 appears on paper to be a good balance of price and performance and a good candidate for your effort. I hope it
lives up to its promise and doesn't waste your time. I presented the HF compact knee mill as a possible next step up from the X2. The size is
good, if not the implementation. Every metal part I designed at Mitre or milled on Segway's Bridgeport could have been done on my Clausing or its quivalent. -jsw
Without trying one, the Sieg X2 appears on paper to be a good balance of price and performance and a good candidate for your effort. I hope it
lives up to its promise and doesn't waste your time. I presented the HF compact knee mill as a possible next step up from the X2. The size is
good, if not the implementation. Every metal part I designed at Mitre or milled on Segway's Bridgeport could have been done on my Clausing or its quivalent. -jsw
The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:t51m17$mn8$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/5/2022 12:15 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Without trying one, the Sieg X2 appears on paper to be a good balance
of price and performance and a good candidate for your effort. I hope
it lives up to its promise and doesn't waste your time. I presented
the HF compact knee mill as a possible next step up from the X2. The
size is good, if not the implementation. Every metal part I designed
at Mitre or milled on Segway's Bridgeport could have been done on my
Clausing or its quivalent. -jsw
I'm ok with it falling on its face (figuratively). One of its KNOWN deficiencies would already drive me crazy if I didn't have a plan for
that after its first ore second basic project.
------------------
What was your second choice?
.....If I was getting a small machine just to have, could afford it, and it
On 5/5/2022 2:09 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:Have fun being superior in your own mind all by yourself.
On 5/5/2022 9:23 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/5/2022 9:05 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine. >>>>>> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS. >>>>>[rambling trimmed]
Tangent trimmed.
IF... you hadn't dismissed the whole purpose of my post as irrelevant
rambling I might have answered your questions. Even while I was
deciding not to answer I had answers running through my mind. I did use >>> the Taig for a long time, tore it apart several times for both good and
bad reasons, and made a few of changes. I'm very familiar with it.
Well, not interested in the video of a person that rambles on and on about >> who knows what. They'll no doubt be really long and have no point.
Have fun with them though.
On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of newbies
who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really know what to
do with it. I sort of started that way. My first "real" machine tool
was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. My wife gave it to me for Christmas. I piddled with it a bit mostly turning metal into chips. I
had little knowledge or skill about turning. I think the first real
useful real world project I made also came from my wife. She suggested
a bracket to mount on the back of a piece of medical equipment that
would facilitate holding the consumable's dispensers without having to
drill more holes in a wall and mount it separately. I turned a couple
dozen tiny little nail head shoulder bolts as part of the project and it worked very well. The dispenser looked just like it belong instead of looking tacked up. I'm not trying to SELL a machine. Maybe if somebody had given me one for this project I might highlight its unique features
if any over some other machines, but nobody did. I paid full retail for
one of the most sold (I think) small machines for non-machinists. What
I am trying to do is help people do something with the machine they have.
There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can afford
it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its not as
much cash out of pocket all at once. There may be some of that in this series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a video titled,
"Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."
I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class with
the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can afford these
are some things you may be able to do with it."Â I am open to changing
my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a clear prejudice
against this machine starting out.
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
 I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .
----------
How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z axis
was the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but tightening
the spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
"Snag" wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .
----------
How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z axis was the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but tightening the spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
On 5/6/2022 4:01 PM, Snag wrote:
On 5/6/2022 10:40 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of
newbies who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really
know what to do with it. I sort of started that way. My first
"real" machine tool was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. My
wife gave it to me for Christmas. I piddled with it a bit mostly
turning metal into chips. I had little knowledge or skill about
turning. I think the first real useful real world project I made
also came from my wife. She suggested a bracket to mount on the back
of a piece of medical equipment that would facilitate holding the
consumable's dispensers without having to drill more holes in a wall
and mount it separately. I turned a couple dozen tiny little nail
head shoulder bolts as part of the project and it worked very well.
The dispenser looked just like it belong instead of looking tacked
up. I'm not trying to SELL a machine. Maybe if somebody had given
me one for this project I might highlight its unique features if any
over some other machines, but nobody did. I paid full retail for one
of the most sold (I think) small machines for non-machinists. What I
am trying to do is help people do something with the machine they have.
There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can
afford it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its
not as much cash out of pocket all at once. There may be some of
that in this series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a
video titled, "Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."
I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class
with the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can
afford these are some things you may be able to do with it."Â I am
open to changing my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a
clear prejudice against this machine starting out.
  I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it
was going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are
times when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle .
That was one of the big deciding factors for me with the PM1440ELB. A
large thru spindle bore. At thee time it was marginally cheaper than
the simialr size Grizzly, and had a through spindle bore.
 Same with the
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the
various mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that
one day I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither
machine has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .
These is an denigrating seeming attitude I see sometimes in machining groups. "I don't NEED that," or "I never needed that." Sometimes its
just an observation, but most times it seems like either a little bit
sour grapes or a put down of somebody who, "Does need that."
Story time.
One time I showed a picture of a screw up I made with a round over bit.
 Worse it was a $100 carbide round over bit. I thought it was amusing.
 Nothing more. A couple of the manual machinists int he group were
quick to quip, "I don't need CNC to cut round overs."Â The fact is
neither do I. I cut my first round overs on an RF30. I didn't respond defensively that I could do it manually too.
Instead I posted a short video of making a dozen t-nuts start to finish
on the KMB1 in the time it might take them to make one or two and said, "Yep. You can makes these manually too."
I can do a lot with a little, but that doesn't mean I want to. It
doesn't mean I want to. I would much rather do it better and/or faster
so I can move on to the next project or go fishing.
Really the whole point though of this video series is to help people do
a lot with a little. Most of it will be aimed at beginners or even
total non-machinists. I hope anybody who isn't a master might learn something even if they only watch it so they can make themselves feel
better by finding things I do to find fault with.
I found the same thing in motorcycles. People who believe and spout
off, "If it ain't a Harley it ain't a motorcycle."Â "People who sneer
down their nose at Harley riders as "Slobs humping their rolling speed bumps," and the poor guy who bought his first motorcycle that isn't as
fast as squid mobile or as comfortable as a pie to pie rider's bike.
I've owned a bunch of motorcycles over the years and more than a couple Harley's, and honestly they have all had things that were good about
them. I'd ride any one of them again today if I still had them.
Well, I haven't owned as many mills as motorcycles. Not by a factor of maybe three, but right now there are 9 milling machines in my shop. My "home" shop that was never intended to be a machine shop at all when I
put up the building. Every single one of them has some value. I like to think about what I CAN do with them and why I keep them rather than how
some other machine in the shop is better or how I don't need the
features on one because I can hack it out on one of the smaller less
featured machines.
Better or easier doesn't mean what you have is bad. Its just better or easier. I can drill holes in concrete, brick, or rock with a 3lb hammer
and a star drill. If I have the time to spend I don't "need" a 1" rotary spline drive rotary hammer to do the job. Just like if the bigger contractor has a core drill it doesn't mean my rotary hammer is bad. It just means he can do the job easier, and maybe faster.
You are right though. A round column mill does have a huge deficiency.
 There are work arounds, and if that is what they have that's what they have to use.
By the way, Thank you. I fully intend to credit you, and Jim and maybe
a couple others atleast in the introductory video as inspiration and for helping me clarify my own motivations and goals for doing this. Almost everybody in this conversation except one has been very helpful in that regard.
--
Bob la Londe
Hobbyist, Hack, Wannabee Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a "Real"
Machinist.
On 5/6/2022 10:40 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of
newbies who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really know
what to do with it. I sort of started that way. My first "real"
machine tool was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. My wife gave
it to me for Christmas. I piddled with it a bit mostly turning metal
into chips. I had little knowledge or skill about turning. I think
the first real useful real world project I made also came from my
wife. She suggested a bracket to mount on the back of a piece of
medical equipment that would facilitate holding the consumable's
dispensers without having to drill more holes in a wall and mount it
separately. I turned a couple dozen tiny little nail head shoulder
bolts as part of the project and it worked very well. The dispenser
looked just like it belong instead of looking tacked up. I'm not
trying to SELL a machine. Maybe if somebody had given me one for this
project I might highlight its unique features if any over some other
machines, but nobody did. I paid full retail for one of the most sold
(I think) small machines for non-machinists. What I am trying to do
is help people do something with the machine they have.
There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can
afford it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its
not as much cash out of pocket all at once. There may be some of that
in this series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a video
titled, "Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."
I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class
with the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can afford
these are some things you may be able to do with it."Â I am open to
changing my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a clear
prejudice against this machine starting out.
 I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle .
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .
On 5/7/2022 10:19 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:... BIGGER through spindle BORE.
On 5/6/2022 4:01 PM, Snag wrote:
On 5/6/2022 10:40 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of
newbies who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really
know what to do with it. I sort of started that way. My first
"real" machine tool was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. My
wife gave it to me for Christmas. I piddled with it a bit mostly
turning metal into chips. I had little knowledge or skill about
turning. I think the first real useful real world project I made
also came from my wife. She suggested a bracket to mount on the
back of a piece of medical equipment that would facilitate holding
the consumable's dispensers without having to drill more holes in a
wall and mount it separately. I turned a couple dozen tiny little
nail head shoulder bolts as part of the project and it worked very
well. The dispenser looked just like it belong instead of looking
tacked up. I'm not trying to SELL a machine. Maybe if somebody had >>>> given me one for this project I might highlight its unique features
if any over some other machines, but nobody did. I paid full retail
for one of the most sold (I think) small machines for
non-machinists. What I am trying to do is help people do something
with the machine they have.
There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can
afford it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its
not as much cash out of pocket all at once. There may be some of
that in this series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a
video titled, "Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."
I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class
with the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can
afford these are some things you may be able to do with it."Â I am
open to changing my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a
clear prejudice against this machine starting out.
  I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it
was going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there
are times when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle .
That was one of the big deciding factors for me with the PM1440ELB. A
large thru spindle bore. At thee time it was marginally cheaper than
the simialr size Grizzly, and had a through spindle bore.
... BIGGER through spindle more.
... BIGGER through spindle more.... BIGGER through spindle BORE.
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t55qei$d2r$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/7/2022 6:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
  I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was >> going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various
mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .
----------
How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z axis
was the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but tightening
the spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
 It cuts quite accurately . The clamp system puts no vertical force on
the spindle . I have more problems with the spindle "climbing" if I try
a cut without locking it . I have watched the Z readout on the DRO as I tighten the clamp and it doesn't move at all .
-----------------------
The RF-45's power and working envelope are significantly better than my
mill, which I consider big enough.
On 5/6/2022 4:01 PM, Snag wrote:
On 5/6/2022 10:40 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of
newbies who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really
know what to do with it. I sort of started that way. My first
"real" machine tool was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. My
wife gave it to me for Christmas. I piddled with it a bit mostly
turning metal into chips. I had little knowledge or skill about
turning. I think the first real useful real world project I made
also came from my wife. She suggested a bracket to mount on the back
of a piece of medical equipment that would facilitate holding the
consumable's dispensers without having to drill more holes in a wall
and mount it separately. I turned a couple dozen tiny little nail
head shoulder bolts as part of the project and it worked very well.
The dispenser looked just like it belong instead of looking tacked
up. I'm not trying to SELL a machine. Maybe if somebody had given
me one for this project I might highlight its unique features if any
over some other machines, but nobody did. I paid full retail for one
of the most sold (I think) small machines for non-machinists. What I
am trying to do is help people do something with the machine they have.
There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can
afford it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its
not as much cash out of pocket all at once. There may be some of
that in this series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a
video titled, "Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."
I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class
with the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can
afford these are some things you may be able to do with it."Â I am
open to changing my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a
clear prejudice against this machine starting out.
  I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it
was going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are
times when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle .
That was one of the big deciding factors for me with the PM1440ELB. A
large thru spindle bore. At thee time it was marginally cheaper than
the simialr size Grizzly, and had a through spindle bore.
 Same with the
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the
various mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that
one day I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither
machine has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .
These is an denigrating seeming attitude I see sometimes in machining groups. "I don't NEED that," or "I never needed that." Sometimes its
just an observation, but most times it seems like either a little bit
sour grapes or a put down of somebody who, "Does need that."
Story time.
One time I showed a picture of a screw up I made with a round over bit.
 Worse it was a $100 carbide round over bit. I thought it was amusing.
 Nothing more. A couple of the manual machinists int he group were
quick to quip, "I don't need CNC to cut round overs."Â The fact is
neither do I. I cut my first round overs on an RF30. I didn't respond defensively that I could do it manually too.
Instead I posted a short video of making a dozen t-nuts start to finish
on the KMB1 in the time it might take them to make one or two and said, "Yep. You can makes these manually too."
I can do a lot with a little, but that doesn't mean I want to. It
doesn't mean I want to. I would much rather do it better and/or faster
so I can move on to the next project or go fishing.
Really the whole point though of this video series is to help people do
a lot with a little. Most of it will be aimed at beginners or even
total non-machinists. I hope anybody who isn't a master might learn something even if they only watch it so they can make themselves feel
better by finding things I do to find fault with.
I found the same thing in motorcycles. People who believe and spout
off, "If it ain't a Harley it ain't a motorcycle."Â "People who sneer
down their nose at Harley riders as "Slobs humping their rolling speed bumps," and the poor guy who bought his first motorcycle that isn't as
fast as squid mobile or as comfortable as a pie to pie rider's bike.
I've owned a bunch of motorcycles over the years and more than a couple Harley's, and honestly they have all had things that were good about
them. I'd ride any one of them again today if I still had them.
Well, I haven't owned as many mills as motorcycles. Not by a factor of maybe three, but right now there are 9 milling machines in my shop. My "home" shop that was never intended to be a machine shop at all when I
put up the building. Every single one of them has some value. I like to think about what I CAN do with them and why I keep them rather than how
some other machine in the shop is better or how I don't need the
features on one because I can hack it out on one of the smaller less
featured machines.
Better or easier doesn't mean what you have is bad. Its just better or easier. I can drill holes in concrete, brick, or rock with a 3lb hammer
and a star drill. If I have the time to spend I don't "need" a 1" rotary spline drive rotary hammer to do the job. Just like if the bigger contractor has a core drill it doesn't mean my rotary hammer is bad. It just means he can do the job easier, and maybe faster.
You are right though. A round column mill does have a huge deficiency.
 There are work arounds, and if that is what they have that's what they have to use.
By the way, Thank you. I fully intend to credit you, and Jim and maybe
a couple others atleast in the introductory video as inspiration and for helping me clarify my own motivations and goals for doing this. Almost everybody in this conversation except one has been very helpful in that regard.
--
Bob la Londe
Hobbyist, Hack, Wannabee Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a "Real"
Machinist.
The RF-45's power and working envelope are significantly better than my
mill, which I consider big enough.
"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message news:t53ui9$k4t$2@reader1.panix.com...
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
...
You're right. To be superior I'd need some old timer story about buying a "motor drill" and then upgrading to a fancier model. I've never though
about upgrading tools or anything like that before. Maybe you can make a seven part video series about how this works.
------------------
I also started by modifying a cheap drill press for X-Y milling. It was good enough to machine the plastic electrical connector housings I needed for my homebrew computer. Then I bought a crappy worn mini lathe and made a milling attachment for it in night school.
Objectively the drill press and AA lathe were wastes of time and money but those projects taught me a feel for speeds and feeds and the forces of cutting metal, and that I liked doing it enough to invest in decent machinery, my $1200 SB lathe and $800 Clausing mill.
Bob isn't pounding his chest to proclaim he's bigger and better than you, he earned what he has and now generously shares it. Free yourself from the zero-sum delusion that you can rise only by pulling down others. That's for losers and communists.
I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine. Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
In the spirit of paying it forward I am working on a video series making "useful" molds on a PIECE Of Shi.. Er Sweet Potato Mini Manual Milling Machine. Most of these "molds" will not be commercial resale grade, but
if anybody wants to buy one... The goal is to give people who couldn't
afford anything better than a Seig X2 in one of its many variations or variations on paint scheme to do something fun and possibly useful.
I have no use for it. I already have a South Bend Knee Mill that is
very nice for my manual milling needs. At first I thought about using
that for the project. That would be cheating. Its as much better than
an X2 clone as a half million dollar Haas mold cutter is to a Taig. It would be perceived as disingenuous to use a $24000 machine to
demonstrate what you "can do" on a $1000 machine. It would be perceived that way because it would be true. It would be blatantly dishonest to
say "because I can do it on a 2 ton 5 HP knee mill with DROs and power
feeds that you can do it on a 130 lb .3 horsepower Piece of Shi... Err
Sweet Potato."
In spite of my belief in spending money to make money and spending money
to save time because time is money... I am still inherently frugal.
Finally I decided to my integrity was worth than that. I bought one.
There are cheaper mills, but they are so small ass to not be practical
for this experiment. I did buy the absolute cheapest one I could find.
It was not the one from Harbor Freight. Harbor Freight had the cheapest sticker price I could find, but it was online only. After tax and
shipping it was about 6 dollars more expensive than the one I bought.
The first video will be an introduction covering this and maybe with a
fast motion overview of the first mold. It will be a concept
introduction video.
Before Episode One which will probably be about making a lead casting
mold of some kind there will be some beginner videos.
A. Machine over view and deficiencies.
B. Work holding and Work Holding on a budget.
CÂ Tool Selection and tool holding with a focus on the initial project videos.
D. Minimum tooling and best cost benefit for part location, and machine
tram and alignment.
That may be put into just two videos and anybody who already knows how
they will do those things will be encouraged to skip them and wait for Episode One.
On 5/7/2022 10:16 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t55qei$d2r$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/7/2022 6:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
  I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was >>> going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times >>> when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various >>> mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .
----------
How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z
axis was the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but
tightening the spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
  It cuts quite accurately . The clamp system puts no vertical force on >> the spindle . I have more problems with the spindle "climbing" if I try
a cut without locking it . I have watched the Z readout on the DRO as I
tighten the clamp and it doesn't move at all .
-----------------------
The RF-45's power and working envelope are significantly better than
my mill, which I consider big enough.
 I figger it's much better to have it and not need it than to need it
and not have it ... actually the only thing I'd change is to put a 3
phase motor with a VFD on it.
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t570u8$kkh$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/7/2022 10:16 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
The RF-45's power and working envelope are significantly better than
my mill, which I consider big enough.
 I figger it's much better to have it and not need it than to need it
and not have it ... actually the only thing I'd change is to put a 3
phase motor with a VFD on it .
----------------------
I'd use the extra size if I had it. My mill is only big enough with
extra external supports, like hanging the other end of long stock from
the ceiling. I think it's big enough to not need upgrading as a
beginner's hobby machine but I build practical working machinery up to
16 feet long. The bandsaw mill's frame is 7 feet long. Drilling the
wheel axle holes parallel would challenge a 9" x 49" Bridgeport.
On 5/7/2022 4:55 PM, Snag wrote:
On 5/7/2022 10:16 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t55qei$d2r$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/7/2022 6:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
  I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it >>>> was
going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are
times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the
various
mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day >>>> I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine >>>> has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .
----------
How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z
axis was the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but
tightening the spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
  It cuts quite accurately . The clamp system puts no vertical force on >>> the spindle . I have more problems with the spindle "climbing" if I try
a cut without locking it . I have watched the Z readout on the DRO as I
tighten the clamp and it doesn't move at all .
-----------------------
The RF-45's power and working envelope are significantly better than
my mill, which I consider big enough.
  I figger it's much better to have it and not need it than to need
it and not have it ... actually the only thing I'd change is to put a
3 phase motor with a VFD on it.
Many simple VFD solutions leave you with very little torque at low RPM.
 Variable pulley or step sheaves have the advantage of giving you full motor power at any spindle speed.
One of the disadvantages of pulley sheave gearing for speed control is sometimes not quite enough torque to get everything spinning up without lugging in the highest speed settings. I've noticed this more on a lathe
than a mill.
3 phase has the advantage (in theory) of having less motor ripple when
you are chasing tenths. Supposedly well regulated DC motors are even better, but I don't know that. Of course being able to adjust speed on
the fly quickly and easily to precisely nail your optimum surface speed
is a big deal. Particularly on the lathe, and its the one reason I
would seriously consider swapping my 14x40 lathe from single phase to
three phase.
Some VFDs can be programmed to help with many issues. Increased current
for brief periods when needed, slower ramp to speed, soft braking, etc.
Motor selection can also be a big deal. No matter what I do with a VFD
I won't get much low speed torque on a spindle designed to turn 24K at
230V and 400hz, but a big industrial 4 pole motor designed to run 1.8K
at 60Hz might still have some usable power as low as 90 RPM at 3hz.
On 5/8/2022 3:32 PM, Snag wrote:
On 5/8/2022 12:51 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/7/2022 4:55 PM, Snag wrote:
On 5/7/2022 10:16 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t55qei$d2r$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/7/2022 6:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
  I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that >>>>>> it was
going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are >>>>>> times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the >>>>>> RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the
various
mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one >>>>>> day
I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither
machine
has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the >>>>>> mill .
----------
How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z
axis was the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but
tightening the spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
  It cuts quite accurately . The clamp system puts no vertical
force on
the spindle . I have more problems with the spindle "climbing" if I
try
a cut without locking it . I have watched the Z readout on the DRO
as I
tighten the clamp and it doesn't move at all .
-----------------------
The RF-45's power and working envelope are significantly better
than my mill, which I consider big enough.
  I figger it's much better to have it and not need it than to need >>>> it and not have it ... actually the only thing I'd change is to put
a 3 phase motor with a VFD on it.
Many simple VFD solutions leave you with very little torque at low
RPM. Â Â Variable pulley or step sheaves have the advantage of giving
you full motor power at any spindle speed.
One of the disadvantages of pulley sheave gearing for speed control
is sometimes not quite enough torque to get everything spinning up
without lugging in the highest speed settings. I've noticed this more
on a lathe than a mill.
3 phase has the advantage (in theory) of having less motor ripple
when you are chasing tenths. Supposedly well regulated DC motors are
even better, but I don't know that. Of course being able to adjust
speed on the fly quickly and easily to precisely nail your optimum
surface speed is a big deal. Particularly on the lathe, and its the
one reason I would seriously consider swapping my 14x40 lathe from
single phase to three phase.
Some VFDs can be programmed to help with many issues. Increased
current for brief periods when needed, slower ramp to speed, soft
braking, etc.
Motor selection can also be a big deal. No matter what I do with a
VFD I won't get much low speed torque on a spindle designed to turn
24K at 230V and 400hz, but a big industrial 4 pole motor designed to
run 1.8K at 60Hz might still have some usable power as low as 90 RPM
at 3hz.
  This is a 6 speed gear drive ... there are times when the slowest
isn't slow enough , and same on the other end of the speed range . And
sometimes you just can't find that "right" speed for the operation .
Having a power feed has lessened some of those problems but still
sometimes it's a compromise .
  <<I've been out "gardening" all day and I'm beat! But everything
but one strip is ready for planting , that section was a bit too wet
today.>>
I'm not a big fan of gear head mills, but I have one and at one time I
had another. (an RF45 clone no less)Â Most folks convert them to belt
drives and put a two or three speed pulley on them with a bigger 3 phase motor. At lower speeds you will wonder if your motor is running it will
be so quiet compared to that gear head noise.
On 5/8/2022 12:51 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/7/2022 4:55 PM, Snag wrote:
On 5/7/2022 10:16 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t55qei$d2r$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/7/2022 6:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
  I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that
it was
going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are
times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the >>>>> RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the
various
mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day >>>>> I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine >>>>> has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the >>>>> mill .
----------
How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z
axis was the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but
tightening the spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
  It cuts quite accurately . The clamp system puts no vertical
force on
the spindle . I have more problems with the spindle "climbing" if I try >>>> a cut without locking it . I have watched the Z readout on the DRO as I >>>> tighten the clamp and it doesn't move at all .
-----------------------
The RF-45's power and working envelope are significantly better than
my mill, which I consider big enough.
  I figger it's much better to have it and not need it than to need
it and not have it ... actually the only thing I'd change is to put a
3 phase motor with a VFD on it.
Many simple VFD solutions leave you with very little torque at low
RPM. Â Â Variable pulley or step sheaves have the advantage of giving
you full motor power at any spindle speed.
One of the disadvantages of pulley sheave gearing for speed control is
sometimes not quite enough torque to get everything spinning up
without lugging in the highest speed settings. I've noticed this more
on a lathe than a mill.
3 phase has the advantage (in theory) of having less motor ripple when
you are chasing tenths. Supposedly well regulated DC motors are even
better, but I don't know that. Of course being able to adjust speed
on the fly quickly and easily to precisely nail your optimum surface
speed is a big deal. Particularly on the lathe, and its the one
reason I would seriously consider swapping my 14x40 lathe from single
phase to three phase.
Some VFDs can be programmed to help with many issues. Increased
current for brief periods when needed, slower ramp to speed, soft
braking, etc.
Motor selection can also be a big deal. No matter what I do with a
VFD I won't get much low speed torque on a spindle designed to turn
24K at 230V and 400hz, but a big industrial 4 pole motor designed to
run 1.8K at 60Hz might still have some usable power as low as 90 RPM
at 3hz.
 This is a 6 speed gear drive ... there are times when the slowest
isn't slow enough , and same on the other end of the speed range . And sometimes you just can't find that "right" speed for the operation .
Having a power feed has lessened some of those problems but still
sometimes it's a compromise .
 <<I've been out "gardening" all day and I'm beat! But everything but
one strip is ready for planting , that section was a bit too wet today.>>
On 5/8/2022 5:41 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/8/2022 3:32 PM, Snag wrote:
On 5/8/2022 12:51 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/7/2022 4:55 PM, Snag wrote:
On 5/7/2022 10:16 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t55qei$d2r$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/7/2022 6:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag"Â wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
  I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that >>>>>>> it was
going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there
are times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the >>>>>>> RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the >>>>>>> various
mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that
one day
I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither
machine
has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to >>>>>>> the
mill .
----------
How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z >>>>>>> axis was the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but >>>>>>> tightening the spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
  It cuts quite accurately . The clamp system puts no vertical
force on
the spindle . I have more problems with the spindle "climbing" if
I try
a cut without locking it . I have watched the Z readout on the DRO >>>>>> as I
tighten the clamp and it doesn't move at all .
-----------------------
The RF-45's power and working envelope are significantly better
than my mill, which I consider big enough.
  I figger it's much better to have it and not need it than to
need it and not have it ... actually the only thing I'd change is
to put a 3 phase motor with a VFD on it.
Many simple VFD solutions leave you with very little torque at low
RPM. Â Â Variable pulley or step sheaves have the advantage of giving
you full motor power at any spindle speed.
One of the disadvantages of pulley sheave gearing for speed control
is sometimes not quite enough torque to get everything spinning up
without lugging in the highest speed settings. I've noticed this
more on a lathe than a mill.
3 phase has the advantage (in theory) of having less motor ripple
when you are chasing tenths. Supposedly well regulated DC motors
are even better, but I don't know that. Of course being able to
adjust speed on the fly quickly and easily to precisely nail your
optimum surface speed is a big deal. Particularly on the lathe, and
its the one reason I would seriously consider swapping my 14x40
lathe from single phase to three phase.
Some VFDs can be programmed to help with many issues. Increased
current for brief periods when needed, slower ramp to speed, soft
braking, etc.
Motor selection can also be a big deal. No matter what I do with a
VFD I won't get much low speed torque on a spindle designed to turn
24K at 230V and 400hz, but a big industrial 4 pole motor designed to
run 1.8K at 60Hz might still have some usable power as low as 90 RPM
at 3hz.
  This is a 6 speed gear drive ... there are times when the slowest
isn't slow enough , and same on the other end of the speed range .
And sometimes you just can't find that "right" speed for the
operation . Having a power feed has lessened some of those problems
but still sometimes it's a compromise .
  <<I've been out "gardening" all day and I'm beat! But everything
but one strip is ready for planting , that section was a bit too wet
today.>>
I'm not a big fan of gear head mills, but I have one and at one time I
had another. (an RF45 clone no less)Â Most folks convert them to belt
drives and put a two or three speed pulley on them with a bigger 3
phase motor. At lower speeds you will wonder if your motor is running
it will be so quiet compared to that gear head noise.
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know a VFD and a 3 phase motor is not a magic bullet that just takes care of everything. It can take a small
amount of learning and planning to wind up with a solution that is
optimum for you.
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:t59o47$kn6$2@gioia.aioe.org...
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know a VFD and a 3 phase motor is not a magic bullet that just takes care of everything. It can take a small
amount of learning and planning to wind up with a solution that is
optimum for you.
---------------------------
Do you think a VFD is useful on a belt drive machine? I converted my
lathe and surface grinder from 3 phase to single phase, and kept the
original motors.
Could a VFD perhaps find a speed that eliminates chatter with a parting
or forming tool, or is there a good reason to run a back-geared lathe
below 55RPM? I can't instantly reverse the lathe due to its threaded
spindle and already thread up to a shoulder with the belt clutch.
A factory option I don't have was a two-speed motor that gave a low
speeds of 42 and 27 RPM on this 10" lathe.
On 5/9/2022 7:31 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:t59o47$kn6$2@gioia.aioe.org...
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know a VFD and a 3 phase motor is not a
magic bullet that just takes care of everything. It can take a small
amount of learning and planning to wind up with a solution that is
optimum for you.
---------------------------
Do you think a VFD is useful on a belt drive machine? I converted my
lathe and surface grinder from 3 phase to single phase, and kept the
original motors.
Could a VFD perhaps find a speed that eliminates chatter with a
parting or forming tool, or is there a good reason to run a
back-geared lathe below 55RPM? I can't instantly reverse the lathe due
to its threaded spindle and already thread up to a shoulder with the
belt clutch.
A factory option I don't have was a two-speed motor that gave a low
speeds of 42 and 27 RPM on this 10" lathe.
I have to think about that.
Parting is tricky. I've found geometry and rigidity are a big deal with parting. Of course feed rate and RPM are a big deal two.
It might have some benefit if only for being able to adjust rpm on the
fly to stay closer to the right surface speed.
Overall I have to think about it.
There are lots of reasons to consider your motor and voltage source.
One reason that motivates people is cost. Generally a single VFD is
cheaper than a new motor or an RPC. For multiple machines an RPC can be cheaper than multiple new motors.
On my high rpm machines its the easiest way to generate 400hz
On 5/9/2022 8:08 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 5/9/2022 7:31 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t59o47$kn6$2@gioia.aioe.org...
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know a VFD and a 3 phase motor is not a >>> magic bullet that just takes care of everything. It can take a small
amount of learning and planning to wind up with a solution that is
optimum for you.
---------------------------
Do you think a VFD is useful on a belt drive machine? I converted my
lathe and surface grinder from 3 phase to single phase, and kept the
original motors.
Could a VFD perhaps find a speed that eliminates chatter with a
parting or forming tool, or is there a good reason to run a
back-geared lathe below 55RPM? I can't instantly reverse the lathe due
to its threaded spindle and already thread up to a shoulder with the
belt clutch.
A factory option I don't have was a two-speed motor that gave a low
speeds of 42 and 27 RPM on this 10" lathe.
I have to think about that.
Parting is tricky. I've found geometry and rigidity are a big deal with
parting. Of course feed rate and RPM are a big deal two.
It might have some benefit if only for being able to adjust rpm on the
fly to stay closer to the right surface speed.
Overall I have to think about it.
There are lots of reasons to consider your motor and voltage source.
One reason that motivates people is cost. Generally a single VFD is
cheaper than a new motor or an RPC. For multiple machines an RPC can be
cheaper than multiple new motors.
On my high rpm machines its the easiest way to generate 400hz
If you do not thread often with the compound you may find replacing it
with a solid block of steel may help with parting.
Another is placing a jack under the parting tool.
Probably number one first thing to try if parting is a problem is
snugging up all your gibbs so they "just" move easily when properly >lubricated.
Doesn't hurt to lock the carriage in place either. I do that for harder >parting and facing. A thin blade will still flex and walk if its not
well supported and is ground improperly, but it eliminates carriage
movement from cutting forces.
There are other tricks, but I really have no experience with them. One
is a flexure style parting tool holder. It seems counter intuitive to
me, but they used to be a commercial tool used on lighter lathes for
parting. Winky's Workshop did a video on it not that long ago. I
believe he made his own. I don't recall having watched the video, but
there was a conversation about it over on Home Shop Machinist.
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:t5biel$90c$1@gioia.aioe.org...
If you do not thread often with the compound you may find replacing it
with a solid block of steel may help with parting.
Another is placing a jack under the parting tool.
Probably number one first thing to try if parting is a problem is
snugging up all your gibbs so they "just" move easily when properly lubricated.
-------------------
Parting isn't a problem, especially after I surface-ground the worn
bottom of the compound slide so I could adjust the gibs closer. I
mentioned it as an example of an operation that chatters if my lathe's
speed is too high.
On 5/9/2022 2:26 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:t5biel$90c$1@gioia.aioe.org...
If you do not thread often with the compound you may find replacing it
with a solid block of steel may help with parting.
Another is placing a jack under the parting tool.
Probably number one first thing to try if parting is a problem is
snugging up all your gibbs so they "just" move easily when properly
lubricated.
-------------------
Parting isn't a problem, especially after I surface-ground the worn
bottom of the compound slide so I could adjust the gibs closer. I
mentioned it as an example of an operation that chatters if my
lathe's speed is too high.
Maybe, but I can do some amazingly aggressive fast parting if the tool
is up to it. I think that a limp loose machine, bad grind, and poor
tool position are more likely to chatter than being a little off on
speed. I'm not saying speed can't be a factor. Just that there are
things one can do to increase the range at which it works ok before
doing a motor swap.
In your case you made your machine less limp and sloppy.
... and of course its all just my opinion. I'm not a master machine builder.
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