Posted in s.ej.w. primarily, due to content; but not much activity
there, so putting plea here...
Hi
Plea for real experience information.
Thicker Ali at above about 130A.
Probably wire-feed-speed at or above 10m/min (394ipm)
Thinking of marine-grade 5000-series Al-Mg, but experience of other
grades would apply regarding this question.
For welds, compare / contrast:
* spray-transfer/smooth-run
^
v
* Pulse-mode/stepped-progression
Or any comparison of spray/Pulse modes and of smooth/stepping
progression.
Flaw and defect rates, please.
This would be by radiography (x-ray) and mechanical test (strength
alone will reveal everything important about Ali?).
Here in UK we have an orthodoxy about which process / approach must be
used.
Defect rates are / can-be high.
Which surely simply cannot be the case universally???
Unfortunately I have not been able to test the welds I trust the most.
Thanks in advance,
Rich Smith
6000-series (extrudable alloys) kicks the arc off itself.
Welding 6000-series to 5000-series is worse...
Familiar experience (?).
I've only used pure Ar (argon).
It works fine.
I've had Ali-GMAW which look just like a steel T-fillet weld but
matt-silver Ali appearance.
However - my first couple of days were "unpromising". It was only the
raging covid19 pandemic and "lockdowns" which had me persevered-with
until I got the other side of "the learning curve" hump.
...
Didn't we have this same conversation last year?
...
A former neighbor is a certified pipe welder who specializes in
alumin(i)um GMAW. If I see him I'll ask if he is willing to chat about
it.
Posted in s.ej.w. primarily, due to content; but not much activity
there, so putting plea here...
Hi
Plea for real experience information.
Thicker Ali at above about 130A.
Probably wire-feed-speed at or above 10m/min (394ipm)
Thinking of marine-grade 5000-series Al-Mg, but experience of other
grades would apply regarding this question.
For welds, compare / contrast:
* spray-transfer/smooth-run
^
v
* Pulse-mode/stepped-progression
Or any comparison of spray/Pulse modes and of smooth/stepping
progression.
Flaw and defect rates, please.
This would be by radiography (x-ray) and mechanical test (strength
alone will reveal everything important about Ali?).
Here in UK we have an orthodoxy about which process / approach must be
used.
Defect rates are / can-be high.
Which surely simply cannot be the case universally???
Unfortunately I have not been able to test the welds I trust the most.
Thanks in advance,
Rich Smith
On 8/26/2022 1:10 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
Posted in s.ej.w. primarily, due to content; but not much activity
there, so putting plea here...
Hi
Plea for ...
...
Rich Smith
P.S. I have two boat projects (full builds, not repairs) in the
works. I have the metal on hand for one. Do you want to hear about
all the dropout holes I blow in the sheet? LOL.
I may be pushing my limit. The first boat is designed to be a light
shallow runner with only .080 hull and bulkheads. I've mig welded
.080 before, but it was tedious at best with lots of double/repair
work. I imagine it will be good practice for the second one and the
one I really want to do. A bit larger (longer wider) faster shallow
water runner with a .125 hull.
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
On 8/26/2022 1:10 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
Posted in s.ej.w. primarily, due to content; but not much activity
there, so putting plea here...
Hi
Plea for ...
...
Rich Smith
P.S. I have two boat projects (full builds, not repairs) in the
works. I have the metal on hand for one. Do you want to hear about
all the dropout holes I blow in the sheet? LOL.
I may be pushing my limit. The first boat is designed to be a light
shallow runner with only .080 hull and bulkheads. I've mig welded
.080 before, but it was tedious at best with lots of double/repair
work. I imagine it will be good practice for the second one and the
one I really want to do. A bit larger (longer wider) faster shallow
water runner with a .125 hull.
Completely different domain from where my cry of continuing pain comes
from.
Below 4mm - certainly 3mm - the benefit of Pulse GMAW is unmissable.
* >= 10m/min - spray at about 24-ish volts
* < 10m/min - pulse
(/ 10e3 25.4) ;; 393.7007874015748
BTW I'd say always think wire-feed-speed with GMAW, because that is interchangeable and transportable across machines and workplaces.
(if you set an all-singing all-dancing machine to "8mm Al", what that
means will never be known to you and if you "calibrate" how you
visualise your welds according to that, you will have nothing when you
move to another job).
What is the same with my "cry of pain" message - the Laws of the
Universe make wire-feed-speed with GMAW the central measure which is impossible to circumvent. What I mean is, "snake-oil salespersons"
you can have this, that AND the other, but Laws like heat
conductivity, latent heat of fusion, the electrical ionisation of
argon, etc., mean this is 100% drivel.
Anyway, digressions...
At these lower thicknesses where the wire-feed-speed falls below
10m/min (394ipm), do switch to "Pulse", which will work brilliantly,
and I haven't met a Pulse-GMAW machine yet where the "Synergic"
single-knob control doesn't give you an ideal condition (no "my
'magic' settings").
Now, that is in an industrial setting with top-brand welding machines
costing thousands of US$ equivalent.
This would be talking about a workshop environment where everything is 3-phase power.
So what I am saying might come from a different world. But putting
3mm (1/8") end-plates capping extruded 4mm and 5mm wall rectangular
hollow sections with outside-corner welds (very low heat demand) -
easy money for me switching to Pulse-GMAW.
Thanks for all help, and I just want to be helpful in return.
Best wishes,
Rich Smith
Can't fault you for perseverance! :-)
Best wishes,
Can't fault you for perseverance! :-)
Best wishes,
Bob - you describe what sounds like the pummeling my mind is having.
A point I saw myself and someone said the next day - if Ali-GMAW is
such a problem here; don't do it. There's other welding and other
jobs...
... When I searched for
conversations about "MIG welding thick aluminum," that was one of the responses I saw on the Miller Welds forums. Talk to the company rep.
https://forum.millerwelds.com/forum/welding-discussions/582655-mig-welding-thick-aluminum-1-2-and-over
...
...
The thickest aluminum I have ever MIG/GMAW welded successfully (that
is arguable) was 3/8 inch (9.5mm). I did it by beveling (thinning the
edge), and preheating with a rosebud. I literally clamped the rosebud
to the structure so it was keeping the entire piece hot from the back
side while I was welding. I had the welder cranked up, pretty fast
wire speed, with 0.035 wire. It was crazy and dangerous to me.
Cleaning was mechanical only for obvious reasons. Straight argon at
about 30CFH inside a building with one door open to minimize air flow
through the building. That's all basic stuff you already know.
...
...
I seem to recall earlier in this thread you said it was "thick"
aluminum. As I made clear I am no expert, but aluminum is a massive
heat sink ...
...
I seem to recall you mentioning that other gases or gas mixes you do
not already have on hand are resisted by management. I can not help
you there.
...
...
I seem to recall earlier in this thread you said it was "thick"
aluminum. As I made clear I am no expert, but aluminum is a massive
heat sink ...
...
This is so like the mindset skewered in the Hitchhiker's Guide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
"Festinger argued that some people would inevitably resolve the
dissonance by blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe."
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
...
I seem to recall earlier in this thread you said it was "thick"
aluminum. As I made clear I am no expert, but aluminum is a massive
heat sink ...
My impression is - that's exactly right, and you cannot circumvent the physics of the situation. The Laws of the Universe.
I speculate - and only that, it's a speculation - that seeing the
power needed to weld Ali, managerial types look to "mystic modes" like various Pulse machines, sold by decent distributors and manufacturers
who give good counsel but ultimately cannot not take a big wadge of
dosh from selling a fancy but pointless machine. All for the deluded
goal of circumventing the Laws of the Universe.
On 9/1/2022 11:14 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
...
...
Its funny. I never wanted to learn to weld aluminum. I had a boat
project all setup, and I took it over to a local pro welding shop. He
told me, "No problem. Come pick it up in two weeks."
In two weeks he said, "Well I had a big important government job
in. Its going to be done in two weeks."
Now at 4 weeks... "Sorry its harvest season and all these big
important farmers are bringing in their stuff. Give me two weeks."
I gave him a month.
At 8 weeks I stopped by and he said,
Something... something... something... two weeks."
At a full 3 months it was finally done WRONG, and one thing that was
supposed to be welded wasn't. I pointed that out, and he welded that
wrong too, on the spot but atleast it would work until I ground it out
a couple years later and re-welded it myself. I noted he had also used
4043 on my 5052 plates. By that time I had learned that much. Sigh!
I had other aluminum boat projects I wanted to do, but I didn't want
to wait two weeks for three months every time I was ready for
something to be welded. I get it. My few hundred dollar weld job was
always going to be less important than any big farmer or government
agency. That's reality. I accept that. I started looking for a
"better" welding machine for my shop that I could also use for
aluminum boat projects. The dual gun Miller 212 seemed like a best
compromise at the time. I thought aluminum would be a bit of a
struggle and learning curve, and steel had to be easier than my little
flux box. Little did I know I was only half right. LOL.
Had that welding shop actually done my job in two weeks I would
probably still be taking any aluminum welding work I had to them
today. Many years later. Yes they are still in business.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
On 9/1/2022 11:14 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
...
...
Its funny. I never wanted to learn to weld aluminum. I had a boat
project all setup, and I took it over to a local pro welding shop. He
told me, "No problem. Come pick it up in two weeks."
In two weeks he said, "Well I had a big important government job
in. Its going to be done in two weeks."
Now at 4 weeks... "Sorry its harvest season and all these big
important farmers are bringing in their stuff. Give me two weeks."
I gave him a month.
At 8 weeks I stopped by and he said,
Something... something... something... two weeks."
At a full 3 months it was finally done WRONG, and one thing that was
supposed to be welded wasn't. I pointed that out, and he welded that
wrong too, on the spot but atleast it would work until I ground it out
a couple years later and re-welded it myself. I noted he had also used
4043 on my 5052 plates. By that time I had learned that much. Sigh!
I had other aluminum boat projects I wanted to do, but I didn't want
to wait two weeks for three months every time I was ready for
something to be welded. I get it. My few hundred dollar weld job was
always going to be less important than any big farmer or government
agency. That's reality. I accept that. I started looking for a
"better" welding machine for my shop that I could also use for
aluminum boat projects. The dual gun Miller 212 seemed like a best
compromise at the time. I thought aluminum would be a bit of a
struggle and learning curve, and steel had to be easier than my little
flux box. Little did I know I was only half right. LOL.
Had that welding shop actually done my job in two weeks I would
probably still be taking any aluminum welding work I had to them
today. Many years later. Yes they are still in business.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Hi Bob
That's some background story.
There's a lot of determination and persistence in that, for sure.
I've no experience of this, but anyway...
5052 is the only 5000-series which can be welded with 4043 filler
wire.
It's due to its lower Mg content, which leaves it still corrosion
resistant but not susceptible to Stress Corrosion Cracking - at a cost
of being crack-susceptible in welding.
That Stress Corrosion Cracking - for lovely (?) higher-Mg alloys like
5083, there is the misfortune that it is SCC susceptible from 65C.
Which can be unfortunate if your boat/ship is in a hot place with the
sun beating down on it and seawater / salt on deck...
So, here is good comment:
https://www.thefabricator.com/thewelder/article/aluminumwelding/aluminum-workshop-where-in-the-world-is-the-5052-filler-alloy-
"Aluminum Workshop: Where in the world is the 5052 filler alloy?"
"
...
So what filler should you use? Not surprisingly, 5356 is a very good
choice. More surprisingly, 4043 also is a very good choice. In all
other base/filler combinations, it is never recommended to weld a 5XXX
alloy with 4043. However, the magnesium content of 5052 is low enough
that 4043 works just fine.
"
Also see Lincoln
c8100.pdf
"Aluminum GMAW - Gas Metal Arc Welding for Aluminum Guide"
I'm inviting comment here, everyone...
A reason for using 5356 is it's so stiff you can use a "conventional"
GMAW machine with a "push" wirefeeder. Although Al fitments. Polymer
guides and liner; U-groove drive-rolls.
I've never used 4043...
Anyway, boats...
Quite some driven endeavour...?!
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tetr8e$12o2$1@gioia.aioe.org...
....
Here's how to weld your boat with your milling machine:
https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/friction-stir-welding-machining-on-one-platform
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_stir_welding
No flux, filler or shielding gas required. It looks like an update to
forge welding, in which the metal softens to stickiness but doesn't
melt. Who knew you could join metal together by ripping it apart?
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tetr8e$12o2$1@gioia.aioe.org...
....
Here's how to weld your boat with your milling machine:
https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/friction-stir-welding-machining-on-one-platform
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_stir_welding
No flux, filler or shielding gas required. It looks like an update to
forge welding, in which the metal softens to stickiness but doesn't
melt. Who knew you could join metal together by ripping it apart?
My Doctoral research supervisor described Wayne Thomas (credited
inventor of Friction Stir Welding(?)) coming by that workshop and
trying out his ideal - using the milling machine I was using to
machine steel plate into samples - with "tools" they improvised as
they went along - and finding - it works!!!
On 9/3/2022 12:01 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tetr8e$12o2$1@gioia.aioe.org...
....
Here's how to weld your boat with your milling machine:
...
My Doctoral research supervisor described Wayne Thomas (credited
inventor of Friction Stir Welding(?)) coming by that workshop and
trying out his ideal - using the milling machine I was using to
machine steel plate into samples - with "tools" they improvised as
they went along - and finding - it works!!!
I've seen some friction welding vids (using lathe) on YouTube, but I
never wanted to put that much heat into my machine. It looks neat,
but I suspect if you aren't running 5 ton or heavier machine to sink
the excess it will heat up things that should remain room
temperature. Maybe not, but it gives me the willies given that all my machines came out of my pocket.
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyr10r1y0q.fsf@void.com...
This is "general" friction-welding? Heating up the entire area to be
fused by acting on the entire area at once.
Friction Stir Welding is working progressively with a "local" tool
along the joint being made.
The essence of friction stir welding is a plastic zone - a region
where the metal is flowing/shearing. Heat/temperature is only a
secondary effect, and the efficiency of the process keeps that low
(?).
Will it work on 0.5~1.5mm aluminium on a lower power machine?
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