This suggests that 6013 is acceptable in the UK for many critical applications: https://www.pgmerlin.co.uk/32mm-x-5kg-nikko-rd-260-e6013-arc-electrodes
"Applications include: plate for ship hull construction, site and
workshop welding of pipes and pipeline, construction of pedestrian
walkways and bridges, vehicle and boiler construction as well as a
great variety of general construction and workshop applications."
Of course that is ad copy, not a legal specification.
The test I learned was to bend the test coupon weld in a hydraulic
press, as it is commonly available shop equipment while other testers
such as yours aren't. Is that a standard acceptance test?
I have never seen tests being done here.
People here get angry and start shouting if they see you testing
anything - settings, techniques, "tests" as you mention - even if you
are going to a high-value weld with a limited access-window - eg. due
to the tides of the sea and when you can get there.
Bend around a former, typically using a hydraulic press, is known here
for butt-welds, yes - but you wouldn't find the test "everywhere". A
good welding college would have a hand-pumped one.
In Canada I saw colleges had a compressed-air pump driven hydraulic
bending rig, so students could freely walk-up with their prepared
test-strips (transverse across their butt weld), put it in the rig,
press foot on the valve and have their bend done in seconds.
Regards,
Rich Smith
On 3/15/2023 4:42 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
I have never seen tests being done here.
People here get angry and start shouting if they see you testing
anything - settings, techniques, "tests" as you mention - even if you
are going to a high-value weld with a limited access-window - eg. due
to the tides of the sea and when you can get there.
Bend around a former, typically using a hydraulic press, is known here
for butt-welds, yes - but you wouldn't find the test "everywhere". A
good welding college would have a hand-pumped one.
In Canada I saw colleges had a compressed-air pump driven hydraulic
bending rig, so students could freely walk-up with their prepared
test-strips (transverse across their butt weld), put it in the rig,
press foot on the valve and have their bend done in seconds.
Regards,
Rich Smith
There are many in the UK who have their own home shop. I have read
some complaints about availability for welding gasses, but it seems to
be a surmountable obstacle. Would it be worth it to you to setup to
do your own tests in your own home shop or perhaps a small local job
shop where you can befriend the owner? Perhaps you could coordinate
with a welding school. They could do real world tests and education
the next generation of commerical and industrial welders of issues
that may concern you. For the most part it would be for your own
comfort in the results, but if something comes to your awareness that
you feel is a safety issue you can't ignore in good conscience maybe
you can pass it to safety regulators anonymously.
I realize a home shop may not be able to run the same machines and
material as an industrial shop, but basic tests could be done. I do
also realize that sometimes issues or results do not scale, but it
could provide a basic result to help you determine if application size testing is warranted.
I have to ask if this is related directly with your previous thread on
6013 vs 7018. Is it? If so have you dismissed the possibley of the
choice being based on the higher potential for hydrogen embrittlement
of 7018 in a wet environment?
--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not
a real machinist
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
On 3/15/2023 4:42 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
I have never seen tests being done here.
People here get angry and start shouting if they see you testing
anything - settings, techniques, "tests" as you mention - even if you
are going to a high-value weld with a limited access-window - eg. due
to the tides of the sea and when you can get there.
Bend around a former, typically using a hydraulic press, is known here
for butt-welds, yes - but you wouldn't find the test "everywhere". A
good welding college would have a hand-pumped one.
In Canada I saw colleges had a compressed-air pump driven hydraulic
bending rig, so students could freely walk-up with their prepared
test-strips (transverse across their butt weld), put it in the rig,
press foot on the valve and have their bend done in seconds.
Regards,
Rich Smith
There are many in the UK who have their own home shop. I have read
some complaints about availability for welding gasses, but it seems to
be a surmountable obstacle. Would it be worth it to you to setup to
do your own tests in your own home shop or perhaps a small local job
shop where you can befriend the owner? Perhaps you could coordinate
with a welding school. They could do real world tests and education
the next generation of commerical and industrial welders of issues
that may concern you. For the most part it would be for your own
comfort in the results, but if something comes to your awareness that
you feel is a safety issue you can't ignore in good conscience maybe
you can pass it to safety regulators anonymously.
I realize a home shop may not be able to run the same machines and
material as an industrial shop, but basic tests could be done. I do
also realize that sometimes issues or results do not scale, but it
could provide a basic result to help you determine if application size
testing is warranted.
I have to ask if this is related directly with your previous thread on
6013 vs 7018. Is it? If so have you dismissed the possibley of the
choice being based on the higher potential for hydrogen embrittlement
of 7018 in a wet environment?
--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not
a real machinist
Hi Bob, everyone
I have a space now for a workshop and test facility.
I do want to be able to do tests.
Hydrogen arguments are spurious for any reasonable-quality "mild" /
weldable structural steel at low thicknesses. At 12mm / 1/2" and less
- for all "normal" circumstances "forget it".
You can't work up the frozen-in stresses and the hydrogen leaves too
quickly.
I have been amused that "Lo-Hi's" are anything but unless handled in a
very specific way.
7018's kept in a shed or a lot of work environments have as much
hydrogen as 6013's, for sure.
I have been amused seeing water dripping out of rod-ovens as huge
amounts of water are driven-off - and electrodes are used in the
saturated state believing they are "Low Hydrogen".
7018's run cleaner when dry - sole reason for most circumstances that
I rod-oven them.
Don't rod-oven anything but "Basic"/CaCO3-based rods - the xx18's and
xx28's - as those rods - mainly the 6013's, the xx10's and xx11's rely
on the moisture for shielding.
I have become interested in Aluminium MIG / Aluminum GMAW, which I
meet in marine work as the 5000-series Al-Mg alloys. http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/weld_qual/221128_alimig/221128_ali_mig_qualctrl.html
"Ali MIG/GMAW welding with quality control"
That would involve a lot of testing.
Rich S
On 3/15/2023 4:42 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
...
...
I have to ask if this is related directly with your previous thread on
6013 vs 7018. Is it? If so have you dismissed the possibley of the
choice being based on the higher potential for hydrogen embrittlement
of 7018 in a wet environment?
...
This belongs in the "AWS Farm Code" (it's a joke Code)...
If the flux hasn't busted off the rod due to rusting it's still usable
for "Farm Code" welds.
If you are that uncertain about 7018, how much moisture it has is
fairly irrelevant. Not holding the correct short arc length all the
time evaluates as a much more serious error.
Do dry your 7018 rods "like mad" if you are doing a "forbidden" weld
like a hardenable steel for implements to a mild-steel shank, or the
like. eg. put them on a clean baking tray in the kitchen oven at
minimum the temperature you'd use for cookies.
This is all "Farm Code" territory.
Do none of these things for any engineering job.
On 3/15/2023 1:42 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
This belongs in the "AWS Farm Code" (it's a joke Code)...
If the flux hasn't busted off the rod due to rusting it's still usable
for "Farm Code" welds.
If you are that uncertain about 7018, how much moisture it has is
fairly irrelevant. Not holding the correct short arc length all the
time evaluates as a much more serious error.
Do dry your 7018 rods "like mad" if you are doing a "forbidden" weld
like a hardenable steel for implements to a mild-steel shank, or the
like. eg. put them on a clean baking tray in the kitchen oven at
minimum the temperature you'd use for cookies.
This is all "Farm Code" territory.
Do none of these things for any engineering job.
Generally I've found the rare hard(ish) to not so hard just works better
with preheat, peining, and post heat. Stainless wire also seems to work
for this sort of thing (tool steel to cast iron or tool steel to
railroad track). I actually have some nickle rod for that sort of
thing, but since acquiring it at a closeout an application has not
presented itself. Technically farm code might apply since I do have a
hard ASR500 steel ripper tooth attached to a miid steel frame for my
tractor, but I was one of those gouche Americans who just used bolts. Technically calling me a farmer might be a stretch, although I admit it
was a greasy old farm mechanic who taught me how to weld with a cutting
torch and a wire clothes hanger.
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tuvfs6$1fur8$1@dont-email.me...
Technically calling me a farmer might be a stretch, although I admit it
was a greasy old farm mechanic who taught me how to weld with a cutting
torch and a wire clothes hanger.
-------------------------
I proudly qualify as a hack too, since I first learned to weld in a farm repair shop, drive a 30+ year old pickup truck and own two (very small) tractors.
On 3/16/2023 11:24 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 3/15/2023 1:42 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
This belongs in the "AWS Farm Code" (it's a joke Code)...
If the flux hasn't busted off the rod due to rusting it's still usable
for "Farm Code" welds.
If you are that uncertain about 7018, how much moisture it has is
fairly irrelevant. Not holding the correct short arc length all the
time evaluates as a much more serious error.
Do dry your 7018 rods "like mad" if you are doing a "forbidden" weld
like a hardenable steel for implements to a mild-steel shank, or the
like. eg. put them on a clean baking tray in the kitchen oven at
minimum the temperature you'd use for cookies.
This is all "Farm Code" territory.
Do none of these things for any engineering job.
Generally I've found the rare hard(ish) to not so hard just works
better with preheat, peining, and post heat. Stainless wire also
seems to work for this sort of thing (tool steel to cast iron or tool
steel to railroad track). I actually have some nickle rod for that
sort of thing, but since acquiring it at a closeout an application has
not presented itself. Technically farm code might apply since I do
have a hard ASR500 steel ripper tooth attached to a miid steel frame
for my tractor, but I was one of those gouche Americans who just used
bolts. Technically calling me a farmer might be a stretch, although I
admit it was a greasy old farm mechanic who taught me how to weld with
a cutting torch and a wire clothes hanger.
Dad used baling wire ... and IIRC 309 wire works well for tool/alloy steel to mild steel . Since I don't stock the proper shield gas to MIG
it (I have .035 flux core 309 but it sucks) ,
I use the TIG .
I also have some Invar 42 nickel/iron for cast iron and dissimilar
metals , works well to attach SS "handles" to tungsten "mandrels" to
make glass beads .
A question about 7018 - as long as it's in the original container/packaging , do I need to be concerned with it picking up
moisture ?
I also have some "old" 7018 that's been exposed to ambient
conditions for several years ... but since I'm the world's second worst
stick welder
volt Weldpak 175 MIG welder .
...
A question about 7018 - as long as it's in the original
container/packaging , do I need to be concerned with it picking up
moisture ?
I also have some "old" 7018 that's been exposed to ambient
conditions for several years ...
... but since I'm the world's second
worst stick welder it doesn't see much use . Especially since I bought
a 220 volt Weldpak 175 MIG welder .
On 3/16/2023 10:39 AM, Snag wrote:
On 3/16/2023 11:24 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 3/15/2023 1:42 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
This belongs in the "AWS Farm Code" (it's a joke Code)...
If the flux hasn't busted off the rod due to rusting it's still usable >>>> for "Farm Code" welds.
If you are that uncertain about 7018, how much moisture it has is
fairly irrelevant. Not holding the correct short arc length all the
time evaluates as a much more serious error.
Do dry your 7018 rods "like mad" if you are doing a "forbidden" weld
like a hardenable steel for implements to a mild-steel shank, or the
like. eg. put them on a clean baking tray in the kitchen oven at
minimum the temperature you'd use for cookies.
This is all "Farm Code" territory.
Do none of these things for any engineering job.
Generally I've found the rare hard(ish) to not so hard just works
better with preheat, peining, and post heat. Stainless wire also
seems to work for this sort of thing (tool steel to cast iron or tool
steel to railroad track). I actually have some nickle rod for that
sort of thing, but since acquiring it at a closeout an application
has not presented itself. Technically farm code might apply since I
do have a hard ASR500 steel ripper tooth attached to a miid steel
frame for my tractor, but I was one of those gouche Americans who
just used bolts. Technically calling me a farmer might be a stretch,
although I admit it was a greasy old farm mechanic who taught me how
to weld with a cutting torch and a wire clothes hanger.
Dad used baling wire ... and IIRC 309 wire works well for
tool/alloy steel to mild steel . Since I don't stock the proper shield
gas to MIG it (I have .035 flux core 309 but it sucks) ,
Did you remember flux core requires DCEN or does it really suck that
bad? Even regular steel flux core does make a bit of a mess I admit.
I use the TIG .
I do really need to spend sometime welding test coupons with the TIG.
I've used it successfully one time so far. Making an autogenous weld to secure a stainless pin in a stainless handle.
I also have some Invar 42 nickel/iron for cast iron and dissimilar
metals , works well to attach SS "handles" to tungsten "mandrels" to
make glass beads .
That's actually pretty impressive. At least to me it is.
A question about 7018 - as long as it's in the original
container/packaging , do I need to be concerned with it picking up
moisture ?
I think I was politely told for the AWS Farm Code hackery I do it
doesn't matter in the above post. That being said, I think the plastic
slip tube containers do nothing to protect rod, but the giant tuna cans
are completely sealed until opened.
I also have some "old" 7018 that's been exposed to ambient conditions
for several years ... but since I'm the world's second worst stick welder
... I think I just got called the worlds first worst stick welder. LOL.
I can live with that.
it doesn't see much use . Especially since I bought a 220
volt Weldpak 175 MIG welder .
On 3/16/2023 12:53 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 3/16/2023 10:39 AM, Snag wrote:
On 3/16/2023 11:24 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 3/15/2023 1:42 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
This belongs in the "AWS Farm Code" (it's a joke Code)...
If the flux hasn't busted off the rod due to rusting it's still usable >>>>> for "Farm Code" welds.
If you are that uncertain about 7018, how much moisture it has is
fairly irrelevant. Not holding the correct short arc length all the >>>>> time evaluates as a much more serious error.
Do dry your 7018 rods "like mad" if you are doing a "forbidden" weld >>>>> like a hardenable steel for implements to a mild-steel shank, or the >>>>> like. eg. put them on a clean baking tray in the kitchen oven at
minimum the temperature you'd use for cookies.
This is all "Farm Code" territory.
Do none of these things for any engineering job.
Generally I've found the rare hard(ish) to not so hard just works
better with preheat, peining, and post heat. Stainless wire also
seems to work for this sort of thing (tool steel to cast iron or
tool steel to railroad track). I actually have some nickle rod for
that sort of thing, but since acquiring it at a closeout an
application has not presented itself. Technically farm code might
apply since I do have a hard ASR500 steel ripper tooth attached to a
miid steel frame for my tractor, but I was one of those gouche
Americans who just used bolts. Technically calling me a farmer might
be a stretch, although I admit it was a greasy old farm mechanic who
taught me how to weld with a cutting torch and a wire clothes hanger.
Dad used baling wire ... and IIRC 309 wire works well for
tool/alloy steel to mild steel . Since I don't stock the proper
shield gas to MIG it (I have .035 flux core 309 but it sucks) ,
Did you remember flux core requires DCEN or does it really suck that
bad? Even regular steel flux core does make a bit of a mess I admit.
Yes , I got the polarity right . It just kinda balls up without
melting into the base metal . Might be because I didn't have enough amps available - this was with the Weldpak 100/110v machine , haven't tried
the new one .
I use the TIG .
I do really need to spend sometime welding test coupons with the TIG.
I've used it successfully one time so far. Making an autogenous weld
to secure a stainless pin in a stainless handle.
The hardest part for me is holding the arc length without dipping the tungsten in the melt puddle .
I also have some Invar 42 nickel/iron for cast iron and dissimilar
metals , works well to attach SS "handles" to tungsten "mandrels" to
make glass beads .
That's actually pretty impressive. At least to me it is.
That was a little job for a bead maker here . Took a little experimentation to get the right combo , I started with 312/.050 filler
. That sucked , so I tried the Invar . The lower melt temp worked better
, but you better have a uniform bead or it will pull the mandrel out of
line as it cools .
A question about 7018 - as long as it's in the original
container/packaging , do I need to be concerned with it picking up
moisture ?
I think I was politely told for the AWS Farm Code hackery I do it
doesn't matter in the above post. That being said, I think the
plastic slip tube containers do nothing to protect rod, but the giant
tuna cans are completely sealed until opened.
I also have some "old" 7018 that's been exposed to ambient conditions
for several years ... but since I'm the world's second worst stick
welder
... I think I just got called the worlds first worst stick welder.
LOL. I can live with that.
I ain't pointin' no fingers ...
it doesn't see much use . Especially since I bought a 220
volt Weldpak 175 MIG welder .
On 3/16/2023 12:12 PM, Snag wrote:
On 3/16/2023 12:53 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 3/16/2023 10:39 AM, Snag wrote:
On 3/16/2023 11:24 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 3/15/2023 1:42 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
This belongs in the "AWS Farm Code" (it's a joke Code)...
If the flux hasn't busted off the rod due to rusting it's still
usable
for "Farm Code" welds.
If you are that uncertain about 7018, how much moisture it has is
fairly irrelevant. Not holding the correct short arc length all the >>>>>> time evaluates as a much more serious error.
Do dry your 7018 rods "like mad" if you are doing a "forbidden" weld >>>>>> like a hardenable steel for implements to a mild-steel shank, or the >>>>>> like. eg. put them on a clean baking tray in the kitchen oven at >>>>>> minimum the temperature you'd use for cookies.
This is all "Farm Code" territory.
Do none of these things for any engineering job.
Generally I've found the rare hard(ish) to not so hard just works
better with preheat, peining, and post heat. Stainless wire also
seems to work for this sort of thing (tool steel to cast iron or
tool steel to railroad track). I actually have some nickle rod for >>>>> that sort of thing, but since acquiring it at a closeout an
application has not presented itself. Technically farm code might
apply since I do have a hard ASR500 steel ripper tooth attached to
a miid steel frame for my tractor, but I was one of those gouche
Americans who just used bolts. Technically calling me a farmer
might be a stretch, although I admit it was a greasy old farm
mechanic who taught me how to weld with a cutting torch and a wire
clothes hanger.
Dad used baling wire ... and IIRC 309 wire works well for
tool/alloy steel to mild steel . Since I don't stock the proper
shield gas to MIG it (I have .035 flux core 309 but it sucks) ,
Did you remember flux core requires DCEN or does it really suck that
bad? Even regular steel flux core does make a bit of a mess I admit.
Yes , I got the polarity right . It just kinda balls up without
melting into the base metal . Might be because I didn't have enough
amps available - this was with the Weldpak 100/110v machine , haven't
tried the new one .
I use the TIG .
I do really need to spend sometime welding test coupons with the TIG.
I've used it successfully one time so far. Making an autogenous weld
to secure a stainless pin in a stainless handle.
The hardest part for me is holding the arc length without dipping
the tungsten in the melt puddle .
I also have some Invar 42 nickel/iron for cast iron and
dissimilar metals , works well to attach SS "handles" to tungsten
"mandrels" to make glass beads .
That's actually pretty impressive. At least to me it is.
That was a little job for a bead maker here . Took a little
experimentation to get the right combo , I started with 312/.050
filler . That sucked , so I tried the Invar . The lower melt temp
worked better , but you better have a uniform bead or it will pull the
mandrel out of line as it cools .
A question about 7018 - as long as it's in the original
container/packaging , do I need to be concerned with it picking up
moisture ?
I think I was politely told for the AWS Farm Code hackery I do it
doesn't matter in the above post. That being said, I think the
plastic slip tube containers do nothing to protect rod, but the giant
tuna cans are completely sealed until opened.
I also have some "old" 7018 that's been exposed to ambient
conditions for several years ... but since I'm the world's second
worst stick welder
... I think I just got called the worlds first worst stick welder.
LOL. I can live with that.
I ain't pointin' no fingers ...
Thanks for the wiggle room. Pop on over to the RMH VB&G before Frank's' bottle runs out.
it doesn't see much use . Especially since I bought a 220
volt Weldpak 175 MIG welder .
"Snag" wrote in message news:tuvk7r$1gqa0$1@dont-email.me...
A question about 7018 - as long as it's in the original container/packaging , do I need to be concerned with it picking up
moisture ? I also have some "old" 7018 that's been exposed to ambient conditions for several years ...
---------------------------
According to this 7018 can be reconditioned at the temperature of the
top of my wood stove: https://www.hobartbrothers.com/downloads/stick_storage_gu_D7GOo.pdf
Dunno about yours. I bought a thermal imager for my birthday present so
I can do simple, crude things the scientific way.
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyilf2pipj.fsf@void.com...
Yes 7018 is massively tough compared to 6013.
But sometimes you can tear-out the plate-surface with a good 6013
fillet, so there is {sometimes} no call for vastly more toughness and ductility.
--------------------
This suggests that 6013 is acceptable in the UK for many critical applications:
...
This suggests that 6013 is acceptable in the UK for many critical applications:
...
"Snag" wrote in message news:tuvl47$1gvhd$1@dont-email.me...
You should see the cobbled
cable bracket I'm making to mount an Edelbrock carb on the truck .
-------------------------
I've been advised to elevate such things to "hand-crafted".
Much of what I own is slowly becoming "hand-crafted" and "unique", as
though saying that would increase its value.
I can do stuff the farm way too. I tied down Grandpa's corrugated corn
crib roof in Alabama with hay wire through 0.22" holes.
On 3/16/2023 3:30 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Snag" wrote in message news:tuvl47$1gvhd$1@dont-email.me...
You should see the cobbled
cable bracket I'm making to mount an Edelbrock carb on the truck .
-------------------------
I've been advised to elevate such things to "hand-crafted".
Much of what I own is slowly becoming "hand-crafted" and "unique", as
though saying that would increase its value.
I can do stuff the farm way too. I tied down Grandpa's corrugated corn
crib roof in Alabama with hay wire through 0.22" holes.
One day I was troubleshooting some noise on an 82A 6 channel analog
carrier running on open wire with my boss (its not rated for open wire)
we came across a tree branch growing into the wire. My boss decided it
was a possible cause of the problem, but it was mid span. Climbing gear wouldn't help, and even if it would we didn't have a suitable saw. There
was no way I wanted to dangle out in that space trying to hack it off
with a drywall saw. We were also never allowed to cut down whole
trees. Just branches that grew into the wire. My boss studied on it
for a few minutes then retrieved his shotgun from the truck and
proceeded to chew that branch in two with successive rounds of bird shot.
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyilf2pipj.fsf@void.com...
Yes 7018 is massively tough compared to 6013.
But sometimes you can tear-out the plate-surface with a good 6013
fillet, so there is {sometimes} no call for vastly more toughness and
ductility.
--------------------
This suggests that 6013 is acceptable in the UK for many critical
applications:
...
I will comment this:
If some does a temporary weld with 7018 you are cursing.
eg. crane lifting lugs from heavy channel can end up any shape you
like by the time you've got them off the installed plates, no matter
how much you work at them with an angle-grinder (without gashing the
plates you've just installed)
Given the readiness of breaking temporary welds in 6013, you'd
be surprised at that 7018 wasn't specified for structural welds.
I think that's enough to say.
Under a microscope the 6013 weld metal is very characteristic and
totally different from high-performing weld metals - like 7018.
There are inclusions which look the size of dinner-plates at high-mag
under an optical microscope.
The compensate, you have to lower the strength of the 6013 weld metal. Problem though - the "acicular ferrite" microstructure of
high-performing weld metals is both strong and *tough*. Due to their
very fine randomly oriented microstructure. So in this case when you deliberately limit the strength you also lose the toughness.
(the general context which doesn't guide here is that for heat-treated
steels - carbon-steels and alloy-steels - there is in general a
"see-saw" inverse relationship between strength and toughness -
strength-^ toughness-v; toughness-^ strength-v)
However - go with the perception formed by meeting temporary lifting
lugs which should be welded on with 6013 but have been welded on with
7018 to see in all the multi-dimensional reality of the electrode
types.
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yaz8zjc.fsf@void.com...
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
This suggests that 6013 is acceptable in the UK for many critical
applications:
...
I will comment this:
If some does a temporary weld with 7018 you are cursing.
eg. crane lifting lugs from heavy channel can end up any shape you
like by the time you've got them off the installed plates, no matter
how much you work at them with an angle-grinder (without gashing the
plates you've just installed)
Given the readiness of breaking temporary welds in 6013, you'd
be surprised at that 7018 wasn't specified for structural welds.
I think that's enough to say.
Under a microscope the 6013 weld metal is very characteristic and
totally different from high-performing weld metals - like 7018.
There are inclusions which look the size of dinner-plates at high-mag
under an optical microscope.
The compensate, you have to lower the strength of the 6013 weld metal. Problem though - the "acicular ferrite" microstructure of
high-performing weld metals is both strong and *tough*. Due to their
very fine randomly oriented microstructure. So in this case when you deliberately limit the strength you also lose the toughness.
(the general context which doesn't guide here is that for heat-treated
steels - carbon-steels and alloy-steels - there is in general a
"see-saw" inverse relationship between strength and toughness -
strength-^ toughness-v; toughness-^ strength-v)
However - go with the perception formed by meeting temporary lifting
lugs which should be welded on with 6013 but have been welded on with
7018 to see in all the multi-dimensional reality of the electrode
types.
--------------------------------
Does that mean that we non-professionals who don't care about high
production rate or removing temporary lifting lugs and make welds on
unknown steel that failed in service should use only 7018 if we can?
Regarding toughness, I could fold my successful 7018 butt welds of
3/16" coupons over double, 180 degrees, in the 50 ton press without
cracking. I also bent a 1/4" Grade 8 bolt shank into a U without a
crack. The rolled threads were more brittle and snapped off with
little deformation.
...
They did a "temporary" weld. They would take a piece
of heavy angle, ...
That same boss once added a hole to his climbing belt (working on that
same line actually) after he had lost some weight with a .22 magnum >revolver.
I spent several minutes trying to make a hole with a scratch awl and a >hammer. Whatever that belt was made of it was tough. I seem to recall
he took two shots to get a hole he was happy with. What really got my >attention though was how much unburnt powder there was in the hole. .22
WMR is more powerful than LR even in a hand gun, but its really intended
to be used in a rifle.
On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 09:56:10 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
<snip>
That same boss once added a hole to his climbing belt (working on that
same line actually) after he had lost some weight with a .22 magnum
revolver.
Be a good job for a wadcutter round but never saw any of those in .22
WMR😏
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yaz8zjc.fsf@void.com...
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
This suggests that 6013 is acceptable in the UK for many critical
applications:
...
I will comment this:
If some does a temporary weld with 7018 you are cursing.
eg. crane lifting lugs from heavy channel can end up any shape you
like by the time you've got them off the installed plates, no matter
how much you work at them with an angle-grinder (without gashing the
plates you've just installed)
Given the readiness of breaking temporary welds in 6013, you'd
be surprised at that 7018 wasn't specified for structural welds.
I think that's enough to say.
Under a microscope the 6013 weld metal is very characteristic and
totally different from high-performing weld metals - like 7018.
There are inclusions which look the size of dinner-plates at high-mag
under an optical microscope.
The compensate, you have to lower the strength of the 6013 weld metal.
Problem though - the "acicular ferrite" microstructure of
high-performing weld metals is both strong and *tough*. Due to their
very fine randomly oriented microstructure. So in this case when you
deliberately limit the strength you also lose the toughness.
(the general context which doesn't guide here is that for heat-treated
steels - carbon-steels and alloy-steels - there is in general a
"see-saw" inverse relationship between strength and toughness -
strength-^ toughness-v; toughness-^ strength-v)
However - go with the perception formed by meeting temporary lifting
lugs which should be welded on with 6013 but have been welded on with
7018 to see in all the multi-dimensional reality of the electrode
types.
--------------------------------
Does that mean that we non-professionals who don't care about high
production rate or removing temporary lifting lugs and make welds on
unknown steel that failed in service should use only 7018 if we can?
Regarding toughness, I could fold my successful 7018 butt welds of
3/16" coupons over double, 180 degrees, in the 50 ton press without
cracking. I also bent a 1/4" Grade 8 bolt shank into a U without a
crack. The rolled threads were more brittle and snapped off with
little deformation.
I wish more experienced folk could step in.
No it's not that simple.
How do I start?!
7018's need a very stable exact "burn" which fairly much means only well-prepared joints with exact fit-up and full-length burn of the
rods. All of this plus starts / restarts are very specific with 7018.
6013 - essentially it will tolerate all the things you do to keep it
running on a very variable job - waving the rod around, varying
arc-length, extinguishing the arc and restriking heat is building up
too much, etc.
Is that enough to convey - there is no simple rule?
Rich Smith
On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 11:27:33 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I spent several minutes trying to make a hole with a scratch awl and a
hammer. Whatever that belt was made of it was tough. I seem to recall
he took two shots to get a hole he was happy with. What really got my
attention though was how much unburnt powder there was in the hole. .22
WMR is more powerful than LR even in a hand gun, but its really intended
to be used in a rifle.
There's the Kel-Tec PM30 that's been around for awhile but hard to find
(or was) in stock and usually over priced...
Walther just came out with a model WMP.
https://waltherarms.com/wmp
Quite a few youtube videos of both these in action with awesome muzzle
flash. There are a couple loads available with short barrel pistols in
mind but still some flash.
It's a round I like a lot. Have had a rifle in WMR around since I was a
teen :) A whole lot more ammo choices for them nowadays...
Paul Harris, Buffalo Outdoors and a few others have evaluated various
ammos on their YouTube channels, and I have to be honest. I was not all
that impressed with their results with made for hand gun .22WMR.
Honestly I think the old heavy weight .22 WMR that was all we could get
back int eh 70s and early 80s was as good as you can get from a handgun,
and I like the new lighter faster rounds for the rifle.
On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 12:42:18 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
Paul Harris, Buffalo Outdoors and a few others have evaluated various
ammos on their YouTube channels, and I have to be honest. I was not all
that impressed with their results with made for hand gun .22WMR.
Honestly I think the old heavy weight .22 WMR that was all we could get
back int eh 70s and early 80s was as good as you can get from a handgun,
and I like the new lighter faster rounds for the rifle.
My preference was for FMJ. Used mainly for small game. Hollow point
noses where prone to get damaged (tube magazine). Shot placement is way
more important than hoping a hollow point would make a bad shot good anyway...
Even if the new rounds suck... all that was available when I was still shooting powder burners was CCI or Winchester Super-X in FMJ or Hollow
point. Always wanted to try some target ammo, see what kind of groups
it made. That's what I finally did with .22 Long Rifle for hunting. Old Remington Green Box target. Worked GOOD! Those hot rounds suck at
making good groups at ~50 yards ;-)
I'll have to run down some of those videos when I get the urge. Thanks!
Its funny though. I never really did the careful study of >weight/velocity/accuracy as I did with my airguns. I've got a really
nice chronograph and I've never put a powder round over it. Maybe
someday I'll take some time to do that. Mostly we just go to the range
and burn up ammo. Occasionally we will play tic tac toe or battleships
with some targets I run off on the printer.
I have not hunted with a .22 powder burner since I could buy a box of
Super X lead round nose for 89¢ and a box of hollow points was $1.59. I >used to hunt certain types of burrowing vermin for the 50¢ bounty from
the irrigation district.
On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 13:21:34 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
<snip>
Its funny though. I never really did the careful study of
weight/velocity/accuracy as I did with my airguns. I've got a really
nice chronograph and I've never put a powder round over it. Maybe
someday I'll take some time to do that. Mostly we just go to the range
and burn up ammo. Occasionally we will play tic tac toe or battleships
with some targets I run off on the printer.
I've never "plinked" with a powder burner. Either checking the sights
and getting the "feel" to shooting a particular gun before season or
hunting. Mostly because plinking would tell me nothing useful about
where the shot went precisely. A squirrel head at ~30 yards needs
precision. I put a ton of BB's and a few pellets through a Crosman 760
as a teen. Learned a lot from that gun plinking away...
Those UK guys have all sorts of targets and games they play with
airguns ;-) Wouldn't be hard to make heftier versions for powder
burners like the .22's.
A lot more Chrono choices nowadays too. That LAB Radar unit would be
really nice if you use one a lot. FX has a radar barrel mount now too
(mixed reviews) but only for airguns...
Does that mean that we non-professionals who don't care about high
production rate or removing temporary lifting lugs and make welds on
unknown steel that failed in service should use only 7018 if we can?
On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 14:25:07 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
<snip>
I have not hunted with a .22 powder burner since I could buy a box of
Super X lead round nose for 89¢ and a box of hollow points was $1.59. I
used to hunt certain types of burrowing vermin for the 50¢ bounty from
the irrigation district.
I hear yah! Been using my springers the past several years to take
vermin...
Airgun World for Feb you might enjoy perusing:
https://forum.mobilism.org/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=5086304&hilit=air+gunner
A lot of new stuff of late. Jim Chapman article too, he's here in the
US.
On 3/17/2023 4:44 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 14:25:07 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
<snip>
I have not hunted with a .22 powder burner since I could buy a box of
Super X lead round nose for 89¢ and a box of hollow points was $1.59. I >>> used to hunt certain types of burrowing vermin for the 50¢ bounty from
the irrigation district.
I hear yah! Been using my springers the past several years to take
vermin...
Airgun World for Feb you might enjoy perusing:
https://forum.mobilism.org/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=5086304&hilit=air+gunner
A lot of new stuff of late. Jim Chapman article too, he's here in the
US.
Alright , you guys are into some serious airgunning . I'm a piker ,
got a Daisy Powerline 880 which is OK I guess for an entry level
beginner . What I need , because my eyes are as old as the rest of me ,
is a decent 3-9x scope for less than an arm and a leg . I've got a POS 5 bucks at a yard sale scope on it now . Won't focus on the target and the parallax is ridiculous . The main task of this unit is to kill cowbirds before they can foul the nests of the pretty birds with their eggs - and
to control a couple of species that think my bees are there for their
snacks . I currently have 1" rings on the rifle .
On 3/17/2023 10:12 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yaz8zjc.fsf@void.com...
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
This suggests that 6013 is acceptable in the UK for many critical
applications:
...
I will comment this:
If some does a temporary weld with 7018 you are cursing.
eg. crane lifting lugs from heavy channel can end up any shape you
like by the time you've got them off the installed plates, no matter
how much you work at them with an angle-grinder (without gashing the
plates you've just installed)
Given the readiness of breaking temporary welds in 6013, you'd
be surprised at that 7018 wasn't specified for structural welds.
I think that's enough to say.
Under a microscope the 6013 weld metal is very characteristic and
totally different from high-performing weld metals - like 7018.
There are inclusions which look the size of dinner-plates at high-mag
under an optical microscope.
The compensate, you have to lower the strength of the 6013 weld metal.
Problem though - the "acicular ferrite" microstructure of
high-performing weld metals is both strong and *tough*. Due to their
very fine randomly oriented microstructure. So in this case when you
deliberately limit the strength you also lose the toughness.
(the general context which doesn't guide here is that for heat-treated
steels - carbon-steels and alloy-steels - there is in general a
"see-saw" inverse relationship between strength and toughness -
strength-^ toughness-v; toughness-^ strength-v)
However - go with the perception formed by meeting temporary lifting
lugs which should be welded on with 6013 but have been welded on with
7018 to see in all the multi-dimensional reality of the electrode
types.
--------------------------------
Does that mean that we non-professionals who don't care about high
production rate or removing temporary lifting lugs and make welds on
unknown steel that failed in service should use only 7018 if we can?
Regarding toughness, I could fold my successful 7018 butt welds of
3/16" coupons over double, 180 degrees, in the 50 ton press without
cracking. I also bent a 1/4" Grade 8 bolt shank into a U without a
crack. The rolled threads were more brittle and snapped off with
little deformation.
I wish more experienced folk could step in.
No it's not that simple.
How do I start?!
7018's need a very stable exact "burn" which fairly much means only
well-prepared joints with exact fit-up and full-length burn of the
rods. All of this plus starts / restarts are very specific with 7018.
6013 - essentially it will tolerate all the things you do to keep it
running on a very variable job - waving the rod around, varying
arc-length, extinguishing the arc and restriking heat is building up
too much, etc.
Is that enough to convey - there is no simple rule?
Rich Smith
Okay how about some basic guidelines for 7018. Constant arc length?
Dealing with starts and stops, etc.
Here is where I am confused. I've used 6013 and 7018 for mild steel,
and generally thought 7018 was much easier to run. I haven't found
any stick to be easy at my skill level, but 7018 was easier.
Particularly on DC, but also on AC to some degree. Is it misleading?
I've used 7018 to weld around well casings. That's probably my most difficult stick weld. Were all those welds just held together with
the slag I knocked off? I'm not trying to be a smartass (or a
dumbass). I'm just trying to get a feel for what I see and hear.
You talked about water practically pouring off the rod, and still
using it, but every academic bit I've read says it must be dry dry
dry.
I have read, heard, viewed various welding pundit say 6013 is the rod
that can weld the world, but I just haven't found it to be as easy to
run.
As to getting pros to weigh in, maybe try some of the more specific
welding forums like Miller Welds. Honestly though I see more
practical education there than technical education.
--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not
a real machinist
but every academic bit I've read says it must be dry dry
dry.
On 3/17/2023 4:16 PM, Snag wrote:
On 3/17/2023 4:44 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 14:25:07 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
<snip>
I have not hunted with a .22 powder burner since I could buy a box of
Super X lead round nose for 89¢ and a box of hollow points was
$1.59. I
used to hunt certain types of burrowing vermin for the 50¢ bounty from >>>> the irrigation district.
I hear yah! Been using my springers the past several years to take
vermin...
Airgun World for Feb you might enjoy perusing:
https://forum.mobilism.org/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=5086304&hilit=air+gunner >>>
A lot of new stuff of late. Jim Chapman article too, he's here in the
US.
Alright , you guys are into some serious airgunning . I'm a piker ,
got a Daisy Powerline 880 which is OK I guess for an entry level
beginner . What I need , because my eyes are as old as the rest of me
, is a decent 3-9x scope for less than an arm and a leg . I've got a
POS 5 bucks at a yard sale scope on it now . Won't focus on the target
and the parallax is ridiculous . The main task of this unit is to kill
cowbirds before they can foul the nests of the pretty birds with their
eggs - and to control a couple of species that think my bees are there
for their snacks . I currently have 1" rings on the rifle .
My first "decent" airgun was a Daisy 880. The 880 is a smooth bore, but mine came with a rifled tube. When I sent it to Daisy to be resealed
back in the day they didn't reseal it. They sent me a different gun. I was not happy. The 881 was the version with a rifled bore. Round nose shuttle cock style pellets tend to be the most accurate, but rifling
still makes a big difference unless you destroy the rifling by shooting copper washed steel BBS. The flat nose (diablo style) pellets aren't
bad at short range, but you get much past 7 yards and that goes away.
I killed a lot of vermin raiding the grain shed with my 880 before my
dad finally patched the holes in it. I still have one, but I don't use
it much.
I did just (several months ago) reseal my Crosman Model 1 1st variant,
but I haven't finished putting it back together.
Alright , you guys are into some serious airgunning . I'm a piker ,
got a Daisy Powerline 880 which is OK I guess for an entry level
beginner . What I need , because my eyes are as old as the rest of me ,
is a decent 3-9x scope for less than an arm and a leg . I've got a POS 5 >bucks at a yard sale scope on it now . Won't focus on the target and the >parallax is ridiculous . The main task of this unit is to kill cowbirds >before they can foul the nests of the pretty birds with their eggs - and
to control a couple of species that think my bees are there for their
snacks . I currently have 1" rings on the rifle .
Ideas?
I have a 10X monocular which fits in a pocket but although there are
worse it isn't notably sharp as you'd be singing praises about and
there's lurid chromatic aberrations messing up what you see.
I fully agree and keep a monocular in the car...
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yay187m.fsf@void.com...
Folk - you know your optics and are off on that path.
Advice solicited.
For nautical / yachting and coastal hiking - a monocular.
------------------------
I fully agree and keep a monocular in the car to identify aircraft
(warbirds) and ships from my sister's favorite beach near the
commercial and military harbor of Portsmouth NH USA. A few times I've recognized the sound of a Merlin engine overhead but it was gone
before I could get outside.
Seeing the magnified and normal sized images simultaneously took me
some effort, I practiced on the Rockettes in NYC. It also helps with a
narrow field of view night vision scope if there's enough light to see faintly with the other eye, as our peripheral vision is more sensitive
than our central (foveal) vision to low light levels and motion.
The thermal imager I bought sees very clearly outdoors in darkness
since things cool at different rates at night. https://www.amazon.com/VEVOR-Thermal-Imaging-Camera-Rechargeable/dp/B0BGRSF97F/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1
When I cut up a roast chicken in night school cooking class I could
see and separate the areas that hadn't reached the safe temperature.
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