Hello all

Already got a challenge I'm looking at.

Done webpage showing what I am looking at and conjecturing solutions http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231120_skipload/cm_skipload.html "Skip load - Condurrow mine"

More background on the mine http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231109_cm1st/231109_condurrow.html
"Condurrow mine"
- has pictures giving general impression of the environment.

I'm trying to broaden the input to this endeavour by posting to RCM.

I'm looking to rope to operate mechanisms because of its lightness and
softness re. being used in a constricted environment with people
around.

On a basic practical level
* keep the ropes as short as possible
* preferably have them hang down the shaft "naturally" as the "parked"
position - not coiling on the floor if can be avoided

I'm visualising capstans/windlasses for the two operations
* open and close the "gates" to the ore bin
* raise and lower the tip of the chute which rotates-out over the
(ore-)skip

There would always be two people there, so one can crank and the other
can tail the rope. Particularly with the "gate" - let go of the tail
of the rope and the "gates" drop in gravity and cut off the flow out
of the ore-bin. That you really want...

(obvious point - no "stopper knot" or anything in the rope - if it's
released it goes, with nothing to catch on anything)

The tip of the chute - you would want it to "fault" to "up" but I
cannot see how to do that readily - however so long as the "gates"
fault to "closed" you only stand to lose a few kg of ore down the
shaft "in-extremis" - a "nothing".

Any thoughts?

Rich Smith

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyttpd3jea.fsf@void.com...

Hello all

Already got a challenge I'm looking at.

Done webpage showing what I am looking at and conjecturing solutions http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231120_skipload/cm_skipload.html "Skip load - Condurrow mine"

More background on the mine http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231109_cm1st/231109_condurrow.html
"Condurrow mine"
- has pictures giving general impression of the environment.

I'm trying to broaden the input to this endeavour by posting to RCM.

I'm looking to rope to operate mechanisms because of its lightness and
softness re. being used in a constricted environment with people
around.

On a basic practical level
* keep the ropes as short as possible
* preferably have them hang down the shaft "naturally" as the "parked"
position - not coiling on the floor if can be avoided

I'm visualising capstans/windlasses for the two operations
* open and close the "gates" to the ore bin
* raise and lower the tip of the chute which rotates-out over the
(ore-)skip

There would always be two people there, so one can crank and the other
can tail the rope. Particularly with the "gate" - let go of the tail
of the rope and the "gates" drop in gravity and cut off the flow out
of the ore-bin. That you really want...

(obvious point - no "stopper knot" or anything in the rope - if it's
released it goes, with nothing to catch on anything)

The tip of the chute - you would want it to "fault" to "up" but I
cannot see how to do that readily - however so long as the "gates"
fault to "closed" you only stand to lose a few kg of ore down the
shaft "in-extremis" - a "nothing".

Any thoughts?

Rich Smith

-----------------------------------------------

Not too sure I understand the problem or your questions. I have several
manual rope/chain lifts around the house and these are my observations on
them.

Braided cotton rope is very easy on the hands. My second choice is braided polyester. The cotton rope that operates my chimney cleaning brush lasts for many years outdoors. My hands are hard from handling firewood etc but the
skin dries and cracks in winter.

Given the choice I lift loads up to 3000# above head level with a chainfall, below it with a lever chain hoist. I just finished stacking logs that pegged
my 1000KG crane scale at one end. The 1.5 ton lever hoist had no trouble raising them to put timbers underneath.

Winch handles can snap back really hard if your hand slips unless they have
a ratchet, which can become a wear and maintenance issue. The ratchet
doesn't protect you while lowering the load. The person tailing the rope
should be warned not to let it fall under foot where it could grab an ankle. Two boat trailer winches raise my gantry track to the tops of their
supporting tripods, where I chain them as the winches are rated only 1200#.

A block and tackle isn't bad with cotton or braided synthetic rope, hard on
the hands with twisted nylon or polypropylene. I like a cam-type jam cleat
for backup above the tie-off cleat, so I don't have to maintain tension
while securing the rope to the cleat. One raises and lowers the TV antenna, another stores heavy and awkward 10' hoisting tripods, a third holds up the outer end of a hinged extension to the deck roof. https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/cleat-hitch
I make several crossover passes before securing the final loop so slippery
rope will give warning when it's starting to slip after I've undone the securing loop with my fingers.

For period authenticity you might look for a Weston differential chain
hoist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_pulley
The loose side of the haul chain bounces around and should be guided onto
the pulley. That applies to chain falls too, but they just jam instead of dropping the load.

They have the valuable curiosity factor that their method of operation may
not be evident to visitors who see them from a distance.

This may not apply to you, but my chimney rain cap acts like an inverted pendulum with an extension below the pivot for the operating cord. Its
weight holds it either open or closed and a brief tug on the cord sets it in motion toward the other direction.

I don't understand the ore chute enough to suggest a fail-safe that closes
it. At the Titanic inquest there was some discussion of the difficulty of making coal chute doors close automatically because the debris jams them.
The watertight bulkheads between compartments had a fairly complex mechanism
to allow them to close either on command or automatically during flooding without falling too fast onto someone passing through.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyttpd3jea.fsf@void.com...

Hello all

Already got a challenge I'm looking at.

Done webpage showing what I am looking at and conjecturing solutions
http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231120_skipload/cm_skipload.html
"Skip load - Condurrow mine"

More background on the mine
http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231109_cm1st/231109_condurrow.html
"Condurrow mine"
- has pictures giving general impression of the environment.

I'm trying to broaden the input to this endeavour by posting to RCM.

I'm looking to rope to operate mechanisms because of its lightness and
softness re. being used in a constricted environment with people
around.

On a basic practical level
* keep the ropes as short as possible
* preferably have them hang down the shaft "naturally" as the "parked"
position - not coiling on the floor if can be avoided

I'm visualising capstans/windlasses for the two operations
* open and close the "gates" to the ore bin
* raise and lower the tip of the chute which rotates-out over the
(ore-)skip

There would always be two people there, so one can crank and the other
can tail the rope. Particularly with the "gate" - let go of the tail
of the rope and the "gates" drop in gravity and cut off the flow out
of the ore-bin. That you really want...

(obvious point - no "stopper knot" or anything in the rope - if it's
released it goes, with nothing to catch on anything)

The tip of the chute - you would want it to "fault" to "up" but I
cannot see how to do that readily - however so long as the "gates"
fault to "closed" you only stand to lose a few kg of ore down the
shaft "in-extremis" - a "nothing".

Any thoughts?

Rich Smith

-----------------------------------------------

Not too sure I understand the problem or your questions. I have
several manual rope/chain lifts around the house and these are my observations on them.

Braided cotton rope is very easy on the hands. My second choice is
braided polyester. The cotton rope that operates my chimney cleaning
brush lasts for many years outdoors. My hands are hard from handling
firewood etc but the skin dries and cracks in winter.

Given the choice I lift loads up to 3000# above head level with a
chainfall, below it with a lever chain hoist. I just finished stacking
logs that pegged my 1000KG crane scale at one end. The 1.5 ton lever
hoist had no trouble raising them to put timbers underneath.

Winch handles can snap back really hard if your hand slips unless they
have a ratchet, which can become a wear and maintenance issue. The
ratchet doesn't protect you while lowering the load. The person
tailing the rope should be warned not to let it fall under foot where
it could grab an ankle. Two boat trailer winches raise my gantry track
to the tops of their supporting tripods, where I chain them as the
winches are rated only 1200#.

A block and tackle isn't bad with cotton or braided synthetic rope,
hard on the hands with twisted nylon or polypropylene. I like a
cam-type jam cleat for backup above the tie-off cleat, so I don't have
to maintain tension while securing the rope to the cleat. One raises
and lowers the TV antenna, another stores heavy and awkward 10'
hoisting tripods, a third holds up the outer end of a hinged extension
to the deck roof.
https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/cleat-hitch
I make several crossover passes before securing the final loop so
slippery rope will give warning when it's starting to slip after I've
undone the securing loop with my fingers.

For period authenticity you might look for a Weston differential chain
hoist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_pulley
The loose side of the haul chain bounces around and should be guided
onto the pulley. That applies to chain falls too, but they just jam
instead of dropping the load.

They have the valuable curiosity factor that their method of operation
may not be evident to visitors who see them from a distance.

This may not apply to you, but my chimney rain cap acts like an
inverted pendulum with an extension below the pivot for the operating
cord. Its weight holds it either open or closed and a brief tug on the
cord sets it in motion toward the other direction.

I don't understand the ore chute enough to suggest a fail-safe that
closes it. At the Titanic inquest there was some discussion of the
difficulty of making coal chute doors close automatically because the
debris jams them. The watertight bulkheads between compartments had a
fairly complex mechanism to allow them to close either on command or automatically during flooding without falling too fast onto someone
passing through.

There is so much you cover here, with what you have written.
If I picked any one thing it would distract from all others and give a
false impression of priority.
I am amazed how many things you have managed to cover.
I recommend to anyone landing on this thread trying to work out what
it's about to read Jim's response in full and consider it for how it
could guide you with in your applications.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyleapgcgn.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
...

There is so much you cover here, with what you have written....

-------------------------

Here's a source: https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/tm3_34x86.pdf

It omits synthetic rope. My preference is for braided polyester, or climbing rope, because sunlight and water negatively affect nylon. Static rope has
low stretch, dynamic rope has more stretch to cushion falls. Arborist "bull" rope is good too. Marine rope would be great if it wasn't so overpriced. I rarely have access to fishermans' suppliers, only recreational boaters'. My sister lives near a harbor but I visit mostly on holidays like today when everything is closed.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyleapgcgn.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
...

There is so much you cover here, with what you have written....

-------------------------

Here's a source: https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/tm3_34x86.pdf

It omits synthetic rope. My preference is for braided polyester, or
climbing rope, because sunlight and water negatively affect
nylon. Static rope has low stretch, dynamic rope has more stretch to
cushion falls. Arborist "bull" rope is good too. Marine rope would be
great if it wasn't so overpriced. I rarely have access to fishermans' suppliers, only recreational boaters'. My sister lives near a harbor
but I visit mostly on holidays like today when everything is closed.

Anchored to wooden timber pitwork - need to very much limit strength
so "in-extremis" a mishap cannot have the ropes pulling down the
pitwork. Make the ropes used of deliberately limited strength. So
in-extremis the rope breaks. Lower strength material rope, of smaller
size - and not a braid, which is stronger.

Another reason to use windlasses/capstans - so can use a rope so small
you could only lift a few kg with it by hand - but has a breaking
strength of say half-a-tonne for 6mm (1/4inch) "cheap" cut-film
polypropylene 3-strand laid rope. Small rope dia. works for you with
a small neat windlass.

Any braid is going to send the strength way up.

Another objection to braids in this application - cannot see inside a
braid to inspect condition. Rope for something like rock-climbing
used carefully - yes braid. "Harsh" use on construction sites or in
mines - ability to twist open the lay of a 3-strand rope and inspect
condition if/when/where attention is so drawn - is so valuable.
"Beats" a lot of "higher-level" arguments.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5y1sm5ws.fsf@void.com...

Anchored to wooden timber pitwork - need to very much limit strength
so "in-extremis" a mishap cannot have the ropes pulling down the
pitwork. Make the ropes used of deliberately limited strength. So
in-extremis the rope breaks. Lower strength material rope, of smaller
size - and not a braid, which is stronger.

Another reason to use windlasses/capstans - so can use a rope so small
you could only lift a few kg with it by hand - but has a breaking
strength of say half-a-tonne for 6mm (1/4inch) "cheap" cut-film
polypropylene 3-strand laid rope. Small rope dia. works for you with
a small neat windlass.

Any braid is going to send the strength way up.

Another objection to braids in this application - cannot see inside a
braid to inspect condition. Rope for something like rock-climbing
used carefully - yes braid. "Harsh" use on construction sites or in
mines - ability to twist open the lay of a 3-strand rope and inspect
condition if/when/where attention is so drawn - is so valuable.
"Beats" a lot of "higher-level" arguments.

---------------------------------------

This looks and handles like traditional rope but is made from cut
polypropylene film:
https://www.knotandrope.com/collections/promanila-rope

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

The thought I put into this was appreciated by the club when I went to
the mine.
It's started some discussions going.
So that's good.
Helped the guy continuing repair of the compressed air pipe down on the tramming level yesterday.
Rich S

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyfs0viobx.fsf@void.com...

The thought I put into this was appreciated by the club when I went to
the mine.
It's started some discussions going.
So that's good.
Helped the guy continuing repair of the compressed air pipe down on the tramming level yesterday.
Rich S

---------------------------

It's good you could help. Wanting to preserve history plus having the skills
to do it aren't that common. This is a local example by people whose
judgment and ability didn't measure up to their intentions. https://mysteryhillnh.info/

The natives of North America never left the Stone Age though Central and
South America did, to a Bronze Age. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_America
Yet they can be completely like us if they choose to, as can Pacific
Islanders, and I suspect we could have stayed primitive except for some
unknown trigger.

I have some experience with rigging, none with mining. The only useful
things in the ground here are sand, gravel and granite.
I do have a rock drill (free, needed repair) and wedges and shims for
splitting rock.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
...

Done webpage showing what I am looking at and conjecturing solutions http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231120_skipload/cm_skipload.html
"Skip load - Condurrow mine"

More background on the mine http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231109_cm1st/231109_condurrow.html
"Condurrow mine" - has pictures giving general impression of the environment.

...

I'm looking to rope to operate mechanisms because of its lightness and softness re. being used in a constricted environment with people
around.

...

Is this the mine referred to at <http://www.cbms.org.uk/index.htm>,
with photos as at <http://www.cbms.org.uk/condurrow_photos.htm>,
apparently called Great Condurrow Mine ? The pictures show a
headframe, but whether it has cables isn't clear from pictures, or
which shaft the headframe serves. Also the description mentions King
Edward Mine near Troon -- is that a few km west of Great Condurrow
Mine ?

Do you have a headframe in working order, more or less, to raise and
lower the skip, and what you want to do with ropes is operate skip
gates, or tip trucks, etc? Or is it not working / not present, and
you want to use ropes to raise small loads?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"James Waldby" wrote in message news:ujrtdi$2mh1k$1@dont-email.me...

Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
...

Done webpage showing what I am looking at and conjecturing solutions http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231120_skipload/cm_skipload.html
"Skip load - Condurrow mine"

More background on the mine http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231109_cm1st/231109_condurrow.html
"Condurrow mine" - has pictures giving general impression of the
environment.

...

I'm looking to rope to operate mechanisms because of its lightness and softness re. being used in a constricted environment with people
around.

...

Is this the mine referred to at <http://www.cbms.org.uk/index.htm>,
with photos as at <http://www.cbms.org.uk/condurrow_photos.htm>,
apparently called Great Condurrow Mine ? The pictures show a
headframe, but whether it has cables isn't clear from pictures, or
which shaft the headframe serves. Also the description mentions King
Edward Mine near Troon -- is that a few km west of Great Condurrow
Mine ?

Do you have a headframe in working order, more or less, to raise and
lower the skip, and what you want to do with ropes is operate skip
gates, or tip trucks, etc? Or is it not working / not present, and
you want to use ropes to raise small loads?

-----------------------------------------
This old photo shows the headframe cable and connects the multiple names: https://www.cornishmineimages.co.uk/king-edward-mine/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

no@no.no (James Waldby) writes:

Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
...

Done webpage showing what I am looking at and conjecturing solutions
http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231120_skipload/cm_skipload.html
"Skip load - Condurrow mine"

More background on the mine
http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231109_cm1st/231109_condurrow.html
"Condurrow mine" - has pictures giving general impression of the environment.

...

I'm looking to rope to operate mechanisms because of its lightness and
softness re. being used in a constricted environment with people
around.

...

Is this the mine referred to at <http://www.cbms.org.uk/index.htm>,
with photos as at <http://www.cbms.org.uk/condurrow_photos.htm>,
apparently called Great Condurrow Mine ? The pictures show a
headframe, but whether it has cables isn't clear from pictures, or
which shaft the headframe serves. Also the description mentions King
Edward Mine near Troon -- is that a few km west of Great Condurrow
Mine ?

Do you have a headframe in working order, more or less, to raise and
lower the skip, and what you want to do with ropes is operate skip
gates, or tip trucks, etc? Or is it not working / not present, and
you want to use ropes to raise small loads?

Might be ;-)

The headframe is complete, all is functional including the winder
(electrically powered), etc.

The "haulage shaft" (correct term? - there's "pumping shafts" and
"man-engine shafts" (no there were no women working as miners then) and
shafts with the whim engine (rotative engine) for hauling ore out of
the mine) has the cables and skip(s).

This mine has a shaft for person access down ladders.


King Edward Mine is less than a kilometre away.
It flooded in the 1920's when the neighbouring Grenville mines
closed. They were naughty with their exploration tunnels going beyond
their sett and broke into King Edward workings - which the water in
King Edward mine found a very agreeable flow direction and the
Grenville mines had to pump King Edward mine for free (and the Judge
told them exactly the same seeing as they had intruded into
K.E. sett).

Nothing of King Edward mine was above the water table, so Camborne
School of Mines had to abandon it as their teaching mine and move to
Condurrow - which at the top of the hill has several levels above the
water table.

The ropes are for operating the parts of the chute and mechanism when transfering from the ore bin to the skip.

Tip of chute into place above skip; open "gate" and ore flows; close
"gate" when skip is nearly full; lift tip of chote up and out of way.
Then signal for skip to be raised.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"James Waldby" wrote in message news:ujrtdi$2mh1k$1@dont-email.me...

Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
...

Done webpage showing what I am looking at and conjecturing solutions
http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231120_skipload/cm_skipload.html
"Skip load - Condurrow mine"

More background on the mine
http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231109_cm1st/231109_condurrow.html
"Condurrow mine" - has pictures giving general impression of the
environment.

...

I'm looking to rope to operate mechanisms because of its lightness and
softness re. being used in a constricted environment with people
around.

...

Is this the mine referred to at <http://www.cbms.org.uk/index.htm>,
with photos as at <http://www.cbms.org.uk/condurrow_photos.htm>,
apparently called Great Condurrow Mine ? The pictures show a
headframe, but whether it has cables isn't clear from pictures, or
which shaft the headframe serves. Also the description mentions King
Edward Mine near Troon -- is that a few km west of Great Condurrow
Mine ?

Do you have a headframe in working order, more or less, to raise and
lower the skip, and what you want to do with ropes is operate skip
gates, or tip trucks, etc? Or is it not working / not present, and
you want to use ropes to raise small loads?

-----------------------------------------
This old photo shows the headframe cable and connects the multiple names: https://www.cornishmineimages.co.uk/king-edward-mine/

King Edward mine - is flooded to near the surface so "abandoned" - but
the workings are preserved - can process tin ore - recentlyt managed
to produce a few kg. of tin metal mined in Cornwall to make a
presentation medals for the "G7" summit in Carbis Bay.

King Edward has a high-pressure horizontal engine - on an integral frame.

It was unlikely anyone would make beam-engine whim engines again - so
Camborne School of Mines went with the times.

I think that was non-condensing - so was no more efficient than a
Cornish beam engine at 50psi (just over 3 Bar). All was not equal
when it came to Cornish (cycle) beam engines...

But emphasising - this was King Edward mine.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly8r6lsfpu.fsf_-_@void.com...

The "haulage shaft" (correct term? - there's "pumping shafts" and
"man-engine shafts" (no there were no women working as miners then) and
shafts with the whim engine (rotative engine) for hauling ore out of
the mine) has the cables and skip(s).

This mine has a shaft for person access down ladders.

------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_engine

I suspect it was a strong incentive to arrive at work relatively sober.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly8r6lsfpu.fsf_-_@void.com...
...

------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_engine

I suspect it was a strong incentive to arrive at work relatively
sober.

There were "man engines" around here, yes.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Skip and guide design: https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/PB283776.xhtml

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

Skip and guide design: https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/PB283776.xhtml

Why I come here - you can "strike gold" on any topic :-)

Wonderfully "aspergic" - come back with a 246 pages of
information-packed PDF on skips and haulage shafts for skips !
You've help me line up to get teased for years to come :-)

For "our" teeny little hobby mine...

Best wishes on this joyful day.

PS currently internationally working mining engineer - whose family
has a small commercial mine here - is back in Cornwwall for a break
and might be coming by this cafe I am in shortly...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly7cm22g4f.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

Skip and guide design: https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/PB283776.xhtml

Why I come here - you can "strike gold" on any topic :-)

Wonderfully "aspergic" - come back with a 246 pages of
information-packed PDF on skips and haulage shafts for skips !
You've help me line up to get teased for years to come :-)

For "our" teeny little hobby mine...

Best wishes on this joyful day.

PS currently internationally working mining engineer - whose family
has a small commercial mine here - is back in Cornwwall for a break
and might be coming by this cafe I am in shortly...

-------------------------

I was looking for older mining technology, rope operated skips and ore
chutes etc. There's a fair amount of old-time industrial reconstruction
around here, except for mines.
https://www.nps.gov/sair/index.htm
That's where as a scientifically interested kid I watched the bloomery
process for making wrought iron without being able to melt it.

This has been an interesting engineering look at a field where the simplest things are difficult, sort of like the Infantry. I always kept in mind that everything I designed for the military had to be operable with gloves on. I spent December 1972 at a snow covered mountaintop communications relay
station near Fulda. To minimize the IR signature there was (officially) very little heat in the tents and none in the equipment vans.

The group of mostly warm-climate Latinos I was attached to had the
regulation 5 gallon jerry can for the tent stove plainly perched on a tarp-covered fuel tank trailer that actually kept the stove red hot all
night. Being from New Hampshire, warm enough for them was toasty for me.
Typing on the Teletypes was very slow, though. The operators kept the doors open to dissipate the hashish smell.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Jim - I've been in Fulda. I had a ladyfriend and friends there.

In the brief time I did it, making equipment for the divers was
likewise - assume very limited to zero visibility, currents - and
gloves on. Makign sure anythign I made would work in "real" conditions.

Still smiling this next morning coming back with a 246-page document
on mine skips - for our teeny little winding arrangement :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

I was looking for older mining technology, rope operated skips and ore
chutes etc. There's a fair amount of old-time industrial
reconstruction around here, except for mines. https://www.nps.gov/sair/index.htm
That's where as a scientifically interested kid I watched the bloomery process for making wrought iron without being able to melt it.

...

Saugus iron works - not melt...

The Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet is near where I grew up - Sheffield, England. First steel where the process is to melt it - "crucible steel".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lywmu1rkzj.fsf@void.com...

The Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet is near where I grew up - Sheffield,
England.
First steel where the process is to melt it - "crucible steel".

-----------------------------

The accounts I've read of Huntsman didn't describe how he achieved
temperatures of 1500-1600C. Knowing the carbon content of a steel sample
gives the minimum temperature needed to melt it. https://bortec-group.com/glossary/iron-carbon-phase-diagram/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lywmu1rkzj.fsf@void.com...

The Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet is near where I grew up - Sheffield,
England.
First steel where the process is to melt it - "crucible steel".

-----------------------------

The accounts I've read of Huntsman didn't describe how he achieved temperatures of 1500-1600C. Knowing the carbon content of a steel
sample gives the minimum temperature needed to melt it. https://bortec-group.com/glossary/iron-carbon-phase-diagram/

Using coke (baked coal).
Is like a tall thin blacksmith's forge.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:54:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly1qc9szs9.fsf@void.com...

In the brief time I did it, making equipment for the divers was
likewise - assume very limited to zero visibility, currents - and
gloves on. Makign sure anythign I made would work in "real" conditions.

---------------------------------
Thanks for reminding me that working under the car on the exhaust yesterday >was far from the worst job, though the freezing temperature and nose to >wrench clearance were similar. And not having the dealer do it was worth
$160 an hour.

OTOH my dealer service department promotes the use of Nitrogen for
tire inflation, so, when the tire symbol lights up I go there and let
them top up my tires for free!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/30/2023 9:18 PM, Gerry wrote:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:54:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly1qc9szs9.fsf@void.com...

In the brief time I did it, making equipment for the divers was
likewise - assume very limited to zero visibility, currents - and
gloves on. Makign sure anythign I made would work in "real" conditions.

---------------------------------
Thanks for reminding me that working under the car on the exhaust yesterday >> was far from the worst job, though the freezing temperature and nose to
wrench clearance were similar. And not having the dealer do it was worth
$160 an hour.

OTOH my dealer service department promotes the use of Nitrogen for
tire inflation, so, when the tire symbol lights up I go there and let
them top up my tires for free!

I use the special 78% nitrogen blend. My local auto dealers don't seem
to stock that. Fortunately I have a lifetime supply on hand.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 07:54:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

"Gerry" wrote in message news:mbnimidt6519ib2qvri0jb0sn3rkprfo1i@4ax.com...

OTOH my dealer service department promotes the use of Nitrogen for
tire inflation, so, when the tire symbol lights up I go there and let
them top up my tires for free!
-----------------------
... and look for something they can charge you to fix, or suggest buying a >new one. Last week I asked to sit in a Ford Bronco and they offered to let
me take it home overnight. A year ago when I tried the Maverick (liked it) >their lot was nearly bare, enough to practice tight parking maneuvers in it. >What I really want is a new 2000 CRV, which I'm slowly getting piece by >piece.

Actually, someone had swiped the fancy all metal "N" valve caps from
the curb side wheels (for their bike?) so I ended up with four nem
caps for free. -high value item you know!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Thanks Jim for link to 254-page report.
Being very cold and needing to warm up a friend who had chilled, I
made a fire in the stove and whiled away time writing my
interpretation of "events". http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231120_skipload/231128_cm_skip_pdf254pg.html
"Mine skip and guides - 254 page PDF"
Have I got "The Cold War" context right? (1977)
Rich S

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyv89fzkcm.fsf@void.com...

Thanks Jim for link to 254-page report.
Being very cold and needing to warm up a friend who had chilled, I
made a fire in the stove and whiled away time writing my
interpretation of "events". http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/condurrow/231120_skipload/231128_cm_skip_pdf254pg.html
"Mine skip and guides - 254 page PDF"
Have I got "The Cold War" context right? (1977)
Rich S
--------------------------------
...

I realized after skimming through much of that .PDF that it probably
didn't apply to Condurrow, but I had it on screen and sent the link
before moving away. I had been looking for more historical, less
automated mining equipment descriptions. I've found that solutions
from one field can be helpful in another, knowing a different previous application of [something] got me out of an intellectual property
theft lawsuit.

Dunno about the Cold War context. After the Army I didn't get back
into government work until the 1990's when it was over and not
missed. After WW2 we studied the enemys' war efforts in considerable
detail and found that shortages of Nickel, Chromium and Tungsten had
greatly hindered the Germans, though they had a frighteningly large
surplus of Uranium from Radium mine waste. Somehow it disappeared
after the war.

An example of the detail: https://www.uboatarchive.net/Design/DesignStudiesTypeXXI.htm

"Portsmouth" is the naval shipyard in Portsmouth NH USA. Type XXI is a Diesel-electric version of the unsuccessful peroxide-powered
experimental U boats, which had improved submerged hydrodynamics
relative to previous models that were optimized for surface travel and
more internal volume to accommodate the bulky peroxide tanks. After
studying German advances and deficiencies we realized we could go
further if the boat didn't need to run on the surface on Diesel power,
so this is the prototype for nuclear hulls:

https://www.ussalbacore.org/

The day I visited the former commander of the shipyard was aboard
waiting for a film crew and I peppered him with more technical
questions than he could or should answer.

All in all, I'm still glad I joined the Army, learned computer
electronics and was paid to fly and drive around Europe.

I understand that with U-boats "the hunter had become the hunted".

I suspect it went like...
a U-boat could sink one merchant ship with the loss of all its cargo;
with the certainty of that U-boat then being destroyed - and the loss
of a U-boat and all its crew cost the attacker more than the target
lost.
The one about on a first voyage a U-boat and its crew had a 30% chance
of not returning. Those losses made the service non-viable. They
mean it could have no body of experience and no mentoring?

MOST people I have met who have been in the armed services speak
positively of it. It used to be the case, and hopefully still is,
that coming from a disadvantaged background you learned a Trade very
well and got a good life after leaving the Services.
Glad you did well out of it, with electronics.

The mine PDF.
Yes you are right - contemporary technology. I didn't think of your
deliberate choice there.

Thing is - I learned a lot - and that was always the point. I
contribute - but gain.

Best wishes

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Amazing info. I gather you did well out of your time in the military.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyzfyqqycw.fsf@void.com...

Amazing info. I gather you did well out of your time in the military. -----------------------------
I heard a lot of stories of non-combat service from when my father was
a company commander in the Air Corps. He and my uncle served in New
Guinea where the commanding general was an engineer and inventor
himself and encouraged any home-grown innovation that helped fight the
enemy. MacArthur backed him as long as the results served the fight,
strict rule followers were sent home for "combat fatigue". The natives
had no money so loose control didn't lead to the corruption that
occurred elsewhere. Otherwise they treated government property as toys
to play with and especially customize as only engineers and mechanics
can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Gunn

The Chief of Staff was Merian Cooper, a bold and independent
pilot/adventurer who had created "King Kong" and served with the
Flying Tigers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merian_C._Cooper

I was expecting hardship and discipline, instead the food was good and
the Captain in Basic Training had bet that his company could score the highest on the final test three times in a row. We were the third, so
they marched and ran us to their limits (I'd been a distance runner),
but treated us with respect and gave us weekends off. We could see
what other training companies experienced, were grateful and delivered
the results that made him a Major.

Then in Electronics school my course was classified and no material
could leave the building, thus no homework. I was free to explore
nearby New York City on weekends. Nearing graduation we were promoted
to the first level of NCO and made squad and platoon leaders, which
made the school's boastful Air Force contingent furious, since they
had to wait years for promotion.

The German I studied in college may have directed me to serve in
Germany where I travelled around and needed it. Discipline there was reputedly strict, however ambitious civil rights lawyers were
exploiting accusations against "ethnic" personnel as racial incidents
which hurt the careers of any officers involved. As a result
discipline nearly vanished for everyone, drug use was accepted and
barracks inspections ceased so they wouldn't have to ignore the
punchbowls of hashish etc. Interestingly everything kept running
smoothly, the small percentage who make things happen continued to and
the rest smoked their dope and stayed quietly out of our way.

Shortly after arriving I was promoted to a tech grade of sergeant
which allowed me to act independently wherever I went and get things
done. My job was fixing code machines that never broke, though other equipment did and the phone lines the Army leased to link computers
were their worst, barely usable whenever it rained.

I was on call and couldn't be given a task I couldn't drop when a
plane arrived to take me on a repair mission. After a reorganization
we lost air support and drove, in military vehicles until they broke
down and then in Army civilian vehicles or our own cars if we could
pass the driving (sign reading) test. Beware of Glatteisgefahr and be
sure to Einfahrt Freihalten. Due to Vietnam's cost there was no money
in Europe for spare parts, and no local source for anything not
Metric. Private mail orders kept Jeeps running, usually with higher performance parts that made them dangerous at German road speeds. BMWs
handle well for good reason. Since few left the base to go drinking
the military pay gave us cash to burn on cameras, audio equipment and
car parts, although in the US married servicemen qualified for
welfare. Gasoline was very cheap because we didn't pay the 3/4 of the
posted price that was tax.

Thus I became the post photographer and helped out in the motor pool
and with the USO whose director wanted to run a small theatre group. I
was the prime choice for meet-the-Germans trips to local attractions
like the neat, flower bordered and Teutonically organized sewage
facility they were so proud of. Methane from a sludge digester ran a
huge Diesel that powered the facility. OTOH being the token enlisted
man at an officers' banquet in Heidelberg Castle was fun, I danced
with the Colonel's wife on the huge wine barrel (the younger wives
were ignoring her) and saw how bored and unhappy the officers' wives
were. I recruited wives into the USO theatre group to keep them busy
and out of trouble. I was selected to attend a grad student's Drug
Education program which was mainly about his research into how various popular intoxicants inhibit blood circulation in frogs' transparent
feet. He was very surprised to find a trained scientist in his class
when he expected all useless losers who could be spared. Conveniently
it was held next to an old airstrip we used for emergency
landings. Once we tied up Stuttgart's international airport while we
made a very slow emergency landing in an old radial-engined Canadian
bush plane.

I had learned enough of German (and French) language and culture to
get along. Most Americans hadn't, felt left out and stayed on
base. Two "ethnics" reenlisted to get back to Saigon, their reason
being that in the US and Germany they were distinctly second class but
in Vietnam they became rich Americans for the first time.

At the time the saddest day of my life was landing back in New Jersey.

(because?)
America was in turmoil then???
The Northern and "rust-belt" cities were in economic and social collapse?
The "hippy culture" was kind of alright for those involved but the
country felt directionless and without a shared vision?

I was in the USA in 2001 to 2002.
What I saw as a complete inversion from confident, outgoing and
self-believing to paranoid and inward-looking was horrendous.
There was no need for the American people to be drawn into that trap,
yet the "leadership" took everyone in that direction, as it seemed to
me.
America seemed to have rebuilt itself from what documentaries show of
the early 1970's.
Maybe I am a naive idealist seeing a great country doing well and
for good reason
when I arrived in early 2001.

Very tentative almost-random thoughts there...

Best wishes,
Rich Smith

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyh6kx95p7.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

The short answer is because it was New Jersey which we called the
Armpit of America for its geography below Long Island, the sluminess
of its cities and the foul chemical odors of the port of Elizabeth in
the corner by NYC. The non-urban parts could be quite pleasant.

Ahh... Right...

https://www.ihc.ucsb.edu/the-idiot-and-the-community/

Interesting observation...

...
interference. That symbolizes the gulf between independent self
reliance and passive codependence.

...

It is externally observed about Britain
"The large number of unskilled 'managers'"
That someone outside seeing a second-by-second reality here.
Inured by years and decades of it, a friend still chortled when I
portrayed an annoyance she related as being "a nothing" because it was
"a laryngial reflex action".
As in - there you are making the Company function, hooked into the
vertical revenue-earning structure of the business

(there are "high-flyers" who strike the deals but rely on a raft of
support making everything easy and pre-organised for them so they can
walk in and concentrate solely on the arrangement which brings money
into the Company and there are those who are not controlling the top
end but are diligently "taking on-board" the needs of the topmost
making everything happen as if it just does in return for a modest
pouring of money to them)

with these horizontal stratems of "managers" whose job should be
keeping the stationery cupboard stocked, booking-in the
central-heating service company, etc. - who have transmuted into
"managers" who pick into the revenue-generating activity.

But the big picture is - the economy is supporting some double-figure
percent of people who seem to do nothing but these reflex actions
without comprehension. Do these things and you are "managerial
material" in Britain and you will be recognised, recruited and given
jobs where you force people doing any actual doing to justify every
little day-to-day thing - "taken on board" by those who self-validate
as being a crucial.

Variants of the "How many managers does it take to change a
lightbulb?" joke has got to extreme levels of sarcasm in response to
the situation.

As I see it...

I am skeptical a successful enduring economy can come from this.

Those who have benefitted from talented success do identify similar.
That the path they followed is not open now, and it would not be
possible to replace a significant person in a Company because "the
managers" would control it - with significant backing og the Law -
"equal opportunities legislation and practice" - hence being able to
insert one of their own.

Etc.

Rich S

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

...
I attribute the rise of human drones ... ..., for politicians a larger voting base, ...

The main driver?
A big base of voters totally reliant on the Government for its
existence, perceiving themselves as "upwardly mobile".

Absurdities here:

* during the "Covid19" crisis there was no need for these people to go
to work - so they invented "the furlough scheme" - the Government paid
for them to stay at home - at the time I did not see that it was going
to be the "no real role" Conservative-party voters where the majority beneficiary of this largesse - as everyone "still" in the working
group, including me, were 100% unbrokenly needed at work.

* a "low-skilled manager" relying on a domestic help who in their own
country is a Doctor, a vetinarian, etc.

The Government had to make jobs for its voters, and being a
"right-wing" Government driving the change they invented "the culture
of the manager" - which created this demographic raft in our society.

How it impacts me - if I go for a job these will be the people on the
interview panel.
"How many angels fit on the head of a pin?" would be a remarkably
recognisable question because at least you can quantify the pin. Many questions - neither the situation nor what they ask you to address are recognisable in the parallel universe of wherever their heads are at. Background explanation - "equal opportunites legislation" means the
whole recruitment process has to be handled by "managers" - and, well,
cue every fantasy and have no relation to the point.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)