Hello all

I must leave this alone - but here's a thought which jumped to me.

Started on path of learning "embedded electronic devices".
Typically boards about 50mm square with inputs, outputs and a
microprocessor - as would be used to control eg. a washing-machine.

The thought must occur to an "on the spectrum" mind - for a boat -
eg. auxiliary power for a sailing yacht...
because you have the sea as a "cold-well temperature" to condense the
working fluid steam back to water to go back through the cycle:

an embedded electronic control device would make possible a
"flash-steam" turbine power unit.

It could sense temperature at the output of the "helix of tube" boiler
with a thermocouple, the power draw on the machine, and instruct
electric pumps for liquid fuel and the water from the condenser.

(carnot-cycle-eff
(my-tc2k 800) ;; 1073.15
(my-tc2k 70) ;; 343.15
) ;; 0.6802404137352653

The potential efficiency of the device is around 68%.

You would have fuel-flexibility - "diesel", heating oil, etc.

The drive would have to be electric (?), seeing as the turbine would
spin at 10's / 100's of thousands of revs-per-minute.

The thing would hopefully be nearly silent, vibration-free and small.
You'll be knowing - on a sailing yacht if you have to go over to
"auxiliary power"
(the wind is low or you want a heading in the "no go zone" in the
90degree included angle about the bow 45deg Port to 45deg Starboard)
the sound and rumble of a diesel engine in the confined small boat is "sub-optimal".

In general steam turbine ships have smaller machinery, can be
lighter-built because there isn't the vibration of a "pounding" diesel
- but up until now have a fuel-consumption penalty compared to a
marine long-stroke diesel (which exceeds 50% efficiency)
Thinking eg. container-ships going around the world at 25knots.

I am taking it that with stainless steel boiler tube and no
consequence if it "lets go" - you put the "boiler" in a steel tube and
if it "lets go" the tiny amount of steam in a flash-boiler "shoots"
over the stern - probably at the water.
So worked on the idea of 800C at the boiler output.

To start the thing you'd crank a manual handle which blows air and
pumps water and fuel-oil in reasonble ratio until the steam-turbine
spins and generates electricity the auxiliaries can start drawing-on
under computer-control.

It is a nice thought that if you want to voyage when the wind isn't
blowing that voyage is as silent as sailing.

A "motor-boat" with such device is a nice thought, and an easier start
as a test rig.

Any comments?

This must be obvious.
Has been done already?

I must absolutely leave this alone - but I had to ask if this is
already known.

Rich Smith

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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1a5nbihcl.fsf@void.com...

...

You could start with a low cost Tesla turbine from eBay, it uses
friction within a stack of simple disks instead of expensive bladed
rotors. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_turbine

...

Tesla turbine - thanks - couldn't visulise any way with turbine

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On 06/03/2024 14:07, Richard Smith wrote:

Hello all

I must leave this alone - but here's a thought which jumped to me.

Started on path of learning "embedded electronic devices".
Typically boards about 50mm square with inputs, outputs and a
microprocessor - as would be used to control eg. a washing-machine.

The thought must occur to an "on the spectrum" mind - for a boat -
eg. auxiliary power for a sailing yacht...

A microprocessor is probably overkill for a boat - you would run it
mostly at a set speed, when you would want to know hot temperature and pressure, and engine speed, but that's about all.

If you are driving a generator then you won't be changing engine speed
much either.

Though nowadays you might as well chuck a microprocessor in and see -
that way lies better instrumentation, process control and outputs like efficiency, noise, engine wear and so on.

For a car now, a microprocessor gets more interesting and dynamic,
especially in direct drive. I designed a flash steam car about 30 years
ago, but it never got built. Hmmm...

because you have the sea as a "cold-well temperature" to condense the
working fluid steam back to water to go back through the cycle:

If it's steam, basically anything which will condense the steam is
enough. Though a copious cold end always helps, at least a little.

an embedded electronic control device would make possible a
"flash-steam" turbine power unit.

It could sense temperature at the output of the "helix of tube" boiler
with a thermocouple, the power draw on the machine, and instruct
electric pumps for liquid fuel and the water from the condenser.

(carnot-cycle-eff
(my-tc2k 800) ;; 1073.15
(my-tc2k 70) ;; 343.15
) ;; 0.6802404137352653

The potential efficiency of the device is around 68%.

No, first a steam engine is not a Carnot cycle engine, it is a
(hopefully condensing) Rankine cycle. Second, small - and by small I
mean anything smaller than huge - turbines are inherently less efficient
than reciprocating engines. You'll be lucky to get 15% even with really
good design.

You might want to look at Sterling engines.

I must absolutely leave this alone - but I had to ask if this is
already known.

Steam turbine ships? see Turbinia.

Peter Fairbrother

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Thanks for the wise words about turbines.
I have heard about low efficiency in small sizes.
That reciptocating engines can be used in like solar power plants where
the solar energy is passed on as steam in the design.
Preserved but still in viable service (?) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Badger
uses "Unaflow" engines.
High boiler pressure for reciprocating engine at 470psi
(/ 470 14.7) ;; 31.97278911564626
about 32Bar.

Thanks everyone.

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On 07/03/2024 00:51, Jim Wilkins wrote:

You machine each blade with two hole saw cuts like this into the rim of
the disk:  ((
with a smaller radius on the back one so the blade has a crescent moon profile and sharp edges.

I tried that, but couldn't get it to work with a suitable geometry (for
an impulse turbine) - I had problems with the back edge of the holesaw
hitting the workpiece. If the saw was small diameter it would intersect
the workpiece on both edges, and if the diameter was large enough that
it didn't interfere the turbine blade was too straight.

Had visions of a flexible belt blade running over a curved surface, but
that didn't work either. Though I am thinking of reviving the idea with
a sanding belt for final polishing.

Nowadays I'd use a straight milling cutter on a CNC milling machine, or
do a lost-PLA casting of a 3D print.

But my turbines are small, usually less than 50mm diameter. For a yacht
you'd want something bigger.



But but ... does the electrical efficiency matter all that much for a
yacht? If you are using CHP (combined heat and power) the otherwise lost
heat can be counted as useful output, giving 95%+ overall efficiency.

Also, suppose you had 10% electrical efficiency from something burning
oil or a similar taxed fuel. You could claim back the transportation tax
on 90 % of your fuel, as you would be using most of the energy from it
for non-transportation purposes.

Or possibly 97.5%, as you might be using the fuel solely for cooking or
heating half the time, and using half the electricity on a microwave or
summat.

(on boats fuel used for transportation is taxed at a much higher rate
than fuel used for domestic heating or cooking. Or it used to be, it's
decades since I lived aboard)



Peter Fairbrother

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For what it's worth - I was thinking of
* de Laval turbine
* Ljungstro..m turbine
With Ljungstrom turbine, wondered if blades could be made on tips of rod
pegs set into the face of the disk. The centrifugal force isn't in line
to sling the inserts out of their seats. ?
I wondered whether the revs would have been manageable.
Two contra-rotating discs would have been fine - two generators.
Presumably at those revs a couple of magnets embedded in each disk?

Idle speculation.

I got an "Arduino" embedded device working today.
Advantage me seeking jobs in processing - new mines opening up around
here (Cornwall).

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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:usi5v7$2ea8v$1@dont-email.me... >>
On 07/03/2024 00:51, Jim Wilkins wrote:

You machine each blade with two hole saw cuts like this into the rim
of the disk: ((
with a smaller radius on the back one so the blade has a crescent
moon profile and sharp edges.

I tried that, but couldn't get it to work with a suitable geometry (for
an impulse turbine) - I had problems with the back edge of the holesaw
hitting the workpiece. If the saw was small diameter it would intersect
the workpiece on both edges, and if the diameter was large enough that
it didn't interfere the turbine blade was too straight.

I can visualize what you mean, interference limits the blade
depth. The blades could be cut deeper with a small end mill if the
rotary index holding the disk blank was in a swivel vise (or rotary
table) manually turned only far enough to make the cut. The setup
might be easier if the disk blank was fixed to a drilled index plate
that took up less space, mounted on a vertical surface of a block that centered (or offset) the blank over the vise swivel axis.

I design things like this graphically by drawing the separate shapes
in CAD and moving them to touch, for example the front and back
circles intersecting at the blank edges, then recording the center coordinates. Trigonometry can refine the precision without much risk
of gross error.

I would rough out the gaps first, milling an arc with hand feed
pressure doesn't allow much depth of cut and NO climb milling.

Hi Jim, Peter

This and the previous "machining and eccentric" (with mention of model aeroplane "peg out of a disc" crankpins) - has really dug up something
from my youth - mid teenage. Now 60 years of age.

I was obsessed with getting a lathe (how met Tony of lathes.co.uk) - and
wanted to become a machinist.

Word was - no this is not a credible job.
etc.

Thing is - a structured mission is better than "kicking your heels"
ostensibly doing something you have no interest in.
ie. a "lowly" (sic.) mission might get you on a path, where being
defeated out of "wrong choices" and adrift without purpose, structure or direction is going to put you six foot under.

I am still here - and this is the first time someone has spoken to my 15-year-old-ish self - and I now at 60 years of age see what I was
trying to do.

I would have been drawn in to a world of vast knowledge, been "hot on
the trail" taking-up mentoring, and had a life expanding open from that.

When everything came crashing down, I passed off as a welder and rebuilt
a life. So I still had to travel a similarish path.

I recently went and for the first time discussed with some family
friends now elderly about their son my contemporary who died by suicide
35 years ago. I am a living link to their son. I had to profess I
didn't know much; hadn't seen anything "dark" in the time I was nearby;
have some knowledge of such things yet still was without basis to
comment.

Well; I am here. And thanks for these interesting responses.

Best wishes,
Rich Smith

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On 09/03/2024 20:22, Richard Smith wrote:

For what it's worth - I was thinking of
* de Laval turbine

A partial admission turbine is probably a good way, to go. Partial
admission means that the incoming fluid only impinges on a few blades at
a time rather than over the whole wheel.

* Ljungstrom turbine
With Ljungstrom turbine, wondered if blades could be made on tips of rod
pegs set into the face of the disk. The centrifugal force isn't in line
to sling the inserts out of their seats. ?

I hadn't thought of that, it's more a bending force isn't it. And you
can put rings on the other end of the blades so they are supported at
both ends, with the centrifugal and pressure forces going sideways.

Though they would typically have a last ring of axial blades for best efficiency.

And possibly a pre-ring or two of impulse blades if the expansion
pressure ratio is higher than about 10 (the two-spool Ljungstrom turbine
is necessarily a reaction turbine, though in some ways it behaves like
an impulse turbine).

Also good is that the blades are not twisted, makes them much easier to
make.

I wondered whether the revs would have been manageable.
Two contra-rotating discs would have been fine - two generators.

Do you have to have two turning spools? [quickly googles Ljungstrom
turbine, it's been a while]

Hmmm, looks like one shaft is okay, in fact there has been a lot of
work on that recently (which I haven't read...yet), see eg RAT turbines
for ORC.

I would stick to steam though, you don't need huge efficiency.

Peter Fairbrother

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I have a "Fluke" meter with clamp to measure Amps - AC and DC.
Not the point - you are pointing to a project.

I did think of a device to measure voltage - get it to "stab" in at the torch/gun - and have it speak the voltage so you can run the arc and
weld while having the info.
I bet there are voice devices for saying numbers?

GnuPlot will graph text files of data - my perception there is no need
to keep the data in other than text format. A compression algorithm
like "bzip2" can get compress the files ot fractions of the former size
- so easy to keep data.

I've done sampling (?) before: http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/datalog/datalog_weldproc.html
Welding - MIG/GMAW "waveforms" revealed by datalogging
Noting average-Amps x average-Volts does not give average-Power with
systematic pulse waveforms.

Arduino - I was rather delighted about "getting" that one.
Have programmed in "C" before, so head start.
Quickly extended beyond tutorials, using
loops "for..."
conditionals "if..."
to get more interesting things happening.
eg. LED's flashing morse-code
from tutorial getting an LED to light.
Hopefully this will stand as a "proof of concept" and be the start of a progression - hopefully with the adjective "rapid".

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Thanks for interesting responses.
This whole matter must remain a conjecture.
Appreciate you developing this and not leaving it as a "loose end",

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On 09/03/2024 19:11, Jim Wilkins wrote:

I can visualize what you mean, interference limits the blade depth. The blades could be cut deeper with a small end mill if the rotary index
holding the disk blank was in a swivel vise (or rotary table) manually
turned only far enough to make the cut. The setup might be easier if the
disk blank was fixed to a drilled index plate that took up less space, mounted on a vertical surface of a block that centered (or offset) the
blank over the vise swivel axis.

Nowadays I only cut ceramic turbine wheels on a CNC mill [*] - it has five-and-a-half axes, but I only use three (plus a rotary table) for
turbine wheels, that's good enough, so the result is similar to your setup.

For ceramics, don't buy the "machinable" ceramics, they are horribly
expensive and their properties are lesser. I get most of my alumina from
a no-name chinese source, can be brittle but it is usually ok if yuo
keep that in mind. Also Morgan ceramics for high tech and high
reliability stuff (Si3N4, ZrO2).

Diamond tooling is not expensive if you a) buy the tools in reasonable quantities and b) keep the water flowing, or even just there. Been
meaning to make my own diamond tooling, but I don't know how and haven't
really tried - anyone?

I would rough out the gaps first, milling an arc with hand feed pressure doesn't allow much depth of cut and NO climb milling.

NO climb milling is always good :) even in ballscew equipped CNC mills. Somewhat less important when you are using abrasive rather than cutting
tools, but still.

Keeping diamond and abrasive ceramic containing slurry out of ballscrews
is also good, damhikt.



Peter Fairbrother

[*] technically it's a CNC-converted BCA jig borer, but it has hefty
upgraded ballscrews, improved lateral stiffness and is pretty much only
used on ceramics with abrasive diamond tooling; though I can fit an ER20
collet shaft and a slower motor. I also have a manual BCA.

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On 10/03/2024 16:55, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Peter Fairbrother"  wrote in message news:usknjc$329n7$1@dont-email.me...

[*] technically it's a CNC-converted BCA jig borer, but it has hefty
upgraded ballscrews, improved lateral stiffness and is pretty much only
used on ceramics with abrasive diamond tooling; though I can fit an ER20 collet shaft and a slower motor. I also have a manual BCA.

------------------------------

Nice!
I have two Henry Hauser vertical mills of similar vintage

Oooh ... :)

, unfortunately

lever feed for production instead of leadscrew. The seller told me they
made WW1 artillery fuses.

I actually have six BCA's, though only two are in working use. I was
picking them up for about £200 each a few years ago and thought to
recondition and/or cnc-convert them, but that plan went agley and they
are now sitting in my nice dry airing cupboard along with some ML10s and
other stuff I have no room to use. Must get a bigger workshop!

The BCA is based on and almost identical to a Boley/Leinen design from
the 1930s (which was based on an earlier 1880's design). I only have one
WW2 example, badged Excel (apparently they rebadged someone else's
work), but I believe it was used to make jigs for anti-aircraft shell
fuzes. The rest, like the BCA name, are post-war.

A story I heard, don't know whether it is true or not, is that just
before WW2 the British Government ordered Excel to make lots of BCAs.
Excel (or whoever) then continued to pay design royalties to
Boley/Leinen right through 1940. Ouch! Postwar, the design rights were considered to be spoils of war.

But Tenga still make them - basically a 1880 design - at £10,500 each
last time I checked.

That old cast iron is still going strong - and 50 years of settling
can't hurt :)

Did you do the CNC conversion?

Yes.


Peter Fairbrother

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On 11/03/2024 13:30, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Peter Fairbrother"  wrote in message
news:usl1ga$34frv$1@dont-email.me...

A story I heard, don't know whether it is true or not, is that just
before WW2 the British Government ordered Excel to make lots of BCAs.
Excel (or whoever) then continued to pay design royalties to
Boley/Leinen right through 1940. Ouch! Postwar, the design rights were considered  to be spoils of war.

Peter Fairbrother

------------------------
The US paid the German manufacturer DWM $412,520 in 1928 to settle a
patent dispute over features of the Springfield rifle taken from the
1893 Mauser.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15846

I've read but can't find where that Britain and Germany both bought
20mm aircraft cannon from Oerlikon, all with barrels made from German
steel.

I was watching a program the other day about the restoration of a
Spitfire in the Shuttleworth collection IIRC and they mentioned it being
fitted with a 20mm cannon to match what the Germans used and they
mentioned it as Hispano Suiza, maybe this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_HS.404 .

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On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 07:38:41 +0000
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

<snip>

Preserved but still in viable service (?) >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Badger
uses "Unaflow" engines.
High boiler pressure for reciprocating engine at 470psi
(/ 470 14.7) ;; 31.97278911564626
about 32Bar.

Sets sail for the season soon🙂

===
LUDINGTON, MI – The S.S. Badger car ferry marked the 71st anniversary
of its maiden voyage across Lake Michigan on Thursday, March 21,
officials said...
===

https://www.mlive.com/news/2024/03/ss-badger-car-ferry-marks-71st-anniversary-of-maiden-voyage-across-lake-michigan.html

There's a link in the article to another that has quite a few historic
photos and a bit more info...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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On 23/03/2024 00:30, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Leon Fisk"  wrote in message news:utkim4$32jtl$1@dont-email.me...

LUDINGTON, MI – The S.S. Badger car ferry marked the 71st anniversary
of its maiden voyage across Lake Michigan on Thursday, March 21,
officials said...

-----------------------------------

That's quite a service record. Ocean liners on the North Atlantic run
wore out in 20-30 years.

Waverley Excursions – The world's last Seagoing paddle steamer

<https://waverleyexcursions.co.uk/>(and yes, the Scottish scenery is
as beautiful as it looks)

I ran away on her when I was about 7. The engineer allowed me to sit on
the end of the crankshaft and the parallel motion bearings of the
largest cylinders of her triple bank triple expansion steam engines when
moving (slowly).

Then he bought me a whisky in the bar and sent me home.



Peter Fairbrother

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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:utkim4$32jtl$1@dont-email.me...

LUDINGTON, MI – The S.S. Badger car ferry marked the 71st anniversary
of its maiden voyage across Lake Michigan on Thursday, March 21,
officials said...

-----------------------------------

That's quite a service record. Ocean liners on the North Atlantic run
wore out in 20-30 years.

25 years service life before scrapping for ocean-going ships: about
equally dependent on at least these two dominating things

* seawater corrosion
Seawater happens to be for steel the "pessimum" composition - if you add
more salt it becomes less corrosive (?). Corrosion is ferocious.

* fatigue
The ship going over ocean waves goes alternatively between "convex" and "concave" bending - wave peak in middle of ship; ship on waves at bow
and stern.

Both of these are attacking all over the ship, likely in places you
cannot easily see.
Then yes machinery is coming up to needing refurb. - which could be done
- but isn't worth it when faced with the big two of corrosion + fatigue.

There are freighters on the Great Lakes at around 100 years old.
Being on fresh water (vastly less corrosive) and without the coean waves
(no fatigue) this can be so.

Also - apparently - the steam-turbine ships as very quiet and smooth -
if as family of someone to do with the Company you get invited to be
passengers on a voyage you go on a steam-turbine ship.

The bulkers used to be coming in and out of Cleveland when I was working
there.
Manouvring out in the Cuyahoga river, there was some heat-haze above the
funnel (stack). Was hilarious sight on Friday nights when everyone
partying by the riverside and pleasure boats around on the river while
another 20,000 tonnes of cargo went on the move.

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Love this story.
Best wishes

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