Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so - "spring-temper"?
We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).
On 28/03/2024 17:53, Richard Smith wrote:
Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so -
"spring-temper"?
I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily >available. Can be cut on a bandsaw in as-it-arrives condition. Not
cheap, but you can sometimes find a deal.
Slowly heat to red-orange, soak for 15 minutes. Quench in hot oil, then >immediately temper well, don't let it cool from hot oil temperature: you >don't want it too hard - maybe an hour or two at 250 C. You'll still be >around 60 Rockwell C.
Not sure if you can spring temper O1. I wouldn't try it here.
That old favourite EN24T might work too, but it is hard to find except
in round bar.
We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).
It's great for hard stuff like knives or screwdrivers: but if you need
impact resistance you have to temper it so much it gets soft; or at
least that's my limited experience, ymmv. I know some people have used
it for punches.
Another problem is, again, it's only really available in round bar.
On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:40:58 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
<peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:
I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily
available.
What about S7 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-rods-and-discs/>
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>
Or 1045 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-rods-and-discs/>
Or 4340 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>
Their cost suggests Black Forest elves make them by hand.
by the economy of mass production, of items whose sales volume justifies
it. Custom hand work is still expensive to buy, or to obtain the
equipment to make. I justified mine because it let me control all of a project at work.
I bought my wedges and shims after trying to make them, mostly because
the shims/feathers are a difficult shape to hold while machining.
What about S7 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>
Or 1045 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>
Or 4340 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>
On 29/03/2024 18:33, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:40:58 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
<peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:
I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily
available.
What about S7 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-rods-and-discs/>
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>
Or 1045 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-rods-and-discs/>
Or 4340 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>
All good choices.
Ah yes the wonderful McMaster-Carr. Unfortunately they only sell to >VAT-registered businesses in the UK, and shipping starts at about $300 >(ouch!!).
You can get 4340 and S7 in the UK, but I don't know where you could get >suitable flats to make wedges in reasonable small quantities.
1045 is about the same as EN8, which is sold a bit more widely, but
again I don't know where to get suitable flats in small quantities.
EN9 would do better (quench-hardens, unlike EN8), but again I don't know >where to buy suitable flats.
Anyone?
The only reason I suggested O1 ground flat stock is because it is
readily available in the UK, eg on ebay, in small quantities. And it's >suitably strong and hard, it's obviously flat not round bar, and can be
had in the right size for about £40 for 500mm delivered. Not cheap, but
I don't know where to do better, especially if you include carriage.
There are occasional bargains to be had too.
80 x 12 x 500mm, £40.50
<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395054999101>
80 x 10 x 500mm £38.82
<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143198127946>
On 29/03/2024 18:33, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:40:58 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
<peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:
I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily
available.
What about S7 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-rods-and-discs/>
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>
Or 1045 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-rods-and-discs/>
Or 4340 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>
All good choices.
Ah yes the wonderful McMaster-Carr. Unfortunately they only sell to VAT-registered businesses in the UK, and shipping starts at about $300 (ouch!!).
You can get 4340 and S7 in the UK, but I don't know where you could
get suitable flats to make wedges in reasonable small quantities.
1045 is about the same as EN8, which is sold a bit more widely, but
again I don't know where to get suitable flats in small quantities.
EN9 would do better (quench-hardens, unlike EN8), but again I don't
know where to buy suitable flats.
Anyone?
The only reason I suggested O1 ground flat stock is because it is
readily available in the UK, eg on ebay, in small quantities. And it's suitably strong and hard, it's obviously flat not round bar, and can
be had in the right size for about £40 for 500mm delivered. Not cheap,
but I don't know where to do better, especially if you include
carriage. There are occasional bargains to be had too.
80 x 12 x 500mm, £40.50
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395054999101
80 x 10 x 500mm £38.82
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143198127946
Not sure how thick or wide you might want.
Actually, I'd buy wedges rather than make them, but ymmv.
Peter Fairbrother
"Peter Fairbrother"Â wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me...[...]
Are the insides of the feathers straight?
No, they are tapered to match their side of the wedge, and the end that protrudes from the hole is quite thin. I think chatter would be a
problem unless they were supported near the cut, and extended plus
lowered in steps as it proceeds. Or they could be slit from mild steel
rod stock in a jig that supports them at the angle.
They need to apply pressure evenly over their length, else the rock will
just chip off at the hole mouth. https://trowandholden.com/wedge-shim-sets.html
"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me...
Are the insides of the feathers straight?
Hmm, a clamp couple of feet of 1/2" round bar in a good pipe vice, use a >thickish slitting saw on t'mill, cut off when you have them long enough, >reclamp, rinse and repeat..
noisy though :)
Peter Fairbrother
--------------------------------
No, they are tapered to match their side of the wedge, and the end that >protrudes from the hole is quite thin. I think chatter would be a problem >unless they were supported near the cut, and extended plus lowered in steps >as it proceeds. Or they could be slit from mild steel rod stock in a jig
that supports them at the angle.
They need to apply pressure evenly over their length, else the rock will
just chip off at the hole mouth. ><https://trowandholden.com/wedge-shim-sets.html>
The question:
How would you go about producting wedges about 2mm to 3mm thinner than
the current ones?
Doing something to the current wedges would be okay.
"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message >news:9fkg0j9s55p1vamdq8rq19lq3gaq6i7j34@4ax.com...
On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 12:25:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me...
Do we have any idea what kind of steel they use?
Joe Gwinn
----------------------------
The feathers are soft and flexible, the wedge harder, such that it puts >scrape marks on the feathers but not vice versa. The wedge heads have become >slightly mushroomed. The feathers are all warped from use, I'd have to >carefully straighten some to reconstruct the original geometry.
The feathers for the 5x 1/2" set and the single 3/4" were all made from 3/8" >round rod. The large end is a half circle. I chose 1/2" after finding
several new 1/2" spline drive bits from an auction in a second hand tool >store (that's closing).
I suppose the feathers could be cut freehand endwise on an upright bandsaw
if the stock was tightly clamped in an inverted toolmakers vise to keep it >from twisting when the blade was off center, then beltsanded to smooth >ridges. I bandsawed some oak slab scrap into a batch of wedges freehand to >pencil lines that came out straight and smooth enough for the carpenter >neighbor to think I bought them until sunshine revealed the saw marks.
On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 16:37:50 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
"Joe Gwinn" wrote in messageIf one can solder the wedge to something solid, all manner of
news:9fkg0j9s55p1vamdq8rq19lq3gaq6i7j34@4ax.com...
On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 12:25:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me... >> Do we have any idea what kind of steel they use?Joe Gwinn
----------------------------
The feathers are soft and flexible, the wedge harder, such that it puts
scrape marks on the feathers but not vice versa. The wedge heads have become >> slightly mushroomed. The feathers are all warped from use, I'd have to
carefully straighten some to reconstruct the original geometry.
The feathers for the 5x 1/2" set and the single 3/4" were all made from 3/8" >> round rod. The large end is a half circle. I chose 1/2" after finding
several new 1/2" spline drive bits from an auction in a second hand tool
store (that's closing).
I suppose the feathers could be cut freehand endwise on an upright bandsaw >> if the stock was tightly clamped in an inverted toolmakers vise to keep it
from twisting when the blade was off center, then beltsanded to smooth
ridges. I bandsawed some oak slab scrap into a batch of wedges freehand to >> pencil lines that came out straight and smooth enough for the carpenter
neighbor to think I bought them until sunshine revealed the saw marks.
machining operations become easy.
Use eutectic tin-lead solder for lowest melting point.
Or just forge them. My bet is that the commercial wedges are made of
1045 steel (EN9 in the UK), quenched and tempered, with wedges
tempered harder than the feathers.
Probably in Roman times, they were made of wrought iron.
Joe Gwinn
"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message >news:rd5h0jhkgaok22e5ptujf4es6qtlo2dog1@4ax.com...
Probably in Roman times, they were made of wrought iron.
Joe Gwinn
--------------------------------------
Or bronze, the Romans were masters of it. ><https://www.valvemagazine.com/articles/ancient-roman-valves>
Like copper today none was left lying around. ><https://www.atouchofrome.com/pantheon-explained-page-2.html#melting-of-the-pantheon-bronze-roof-trusses>
The little remaining evidence of ancient tools suggests that they didn't >change much from antiquity until the Industrial Revolution, look in an >antique shop for examples. One difference is that screws were very rare
until clock makers needed them.
Holtzapffel Book II, Chapter XXVI describes the history of laying out and >forming threads by simple methods before the modern screw-cutting lathe was >introduced. I have an old die stock with grooves for gradually pressing >threads into a rod by tightening the two halves together that appear to have >been cut with a chisel.
A great advance was a lathe with a sliding spindle with several thread >pitches cut on it, so it would advance the work past a stationary cutter at >the pitch selected by lowering a follower into one of the spindle threads.
On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:40:58 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
<peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:
On 28/03/2024 17:53, Richard Smith wrote:
Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so -
"spring-temper"?
I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily >>available. Can be cut on a bandsaw in as-it-arrives condition. Not
cheap, but you can sometimes find a deal.
Slowly heat to red-orange, soak for 15 minutes. Quench in hot oil, then >>immediately temper well, don't let it cool from hot oil temperature: you >>don't want it too hard - maybe an hour or two at 250 C. You'll still be >>around 60 Rockwell C.
Not sure if you can spring temper O1. I wouldn't try it here.
That old favourite EN24T might work too, but it is hard to find except
in round bar.
We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).
It's great for hard stuff like knives or screwdrivers: but if you need >>impact resistance you have to temper it so much it gets soft; or at
least that's my limited experience, ymmv. I know some people have used
it for punches.
Another problem is, again, it's only really available in round bar.
What about S7 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-rods-and-discs/>
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>
Or 1045 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-rods-and-discs/>
Or 4340 steel:
.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>
Joe Gwinn
<lots of helpful answers>
I've got some 6mm EN8 plate that I could part with some bits of. I've
had items profiled out of it so some sections aren't much use for much
else and would easily make the wedges I expect.
Also, got some more wedges on-order, so might take 3 wedges and try
grinding a millimetre off either side of the wedge and see how they
perform.
Am used to using an angle-grinder.
Good strategy for removing a fixed amount can be to gash with a slitting
disk to depth you want to remove (in this case 1mm) - you can measure >accurately how deep a gash is - then generally grind until you just
remove the gashes.
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1jzliun94.fsf@void.com...
Minded to find some C-steel and see how it pans-out.
Would learn a lot along the way for sure - before starting with
higher-value material.
Peter F's "O1" steel sounds interesting.
C-Cr-W-V steel.
Description makes it sound like created by smart pragmatists.
-----------------------------------
I might check local fabricators or heavy equipment repair shops for scrap >AR400 or similar to sell and see if my plasma cutter can handle it. Some >jackhammer bits have a similar cross section, but are wider.
Hi everyone
Ground 3 of the current wedges so looks like wedge-and-feathers will fit
into 12mm drilled socket.
See where that gets me for now.
Appreciating all the inputs.
I will want to forge something which has to cut.
Thanks everyone.
I'll look into this.
"In the moment" response - this is using small charges about the size of
an "AAA" battery?
Cavers use...Can visualise that - crawling along in a tiny space, having to carry
any kit in such journey, and no space to swing a sledgehammer if you
come to an obstruction...
Capping or Hilti capping uses Hilti nail gun gun cartridges, which you
...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225952485669 at £15 for 100, they are about
£60 per thousand if you buy lots of them.
You want the red or better the black ones, but the black ones can be
more expensive and harder to get.
Some somewhat dangerous examples of use (cavers are nuts anyway):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuPozHyKEKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjgWA8v52Go
...
designs on an isolated computer instead of the cloud?
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1sezwvpqd.fsf@void.com...
Do have to find a way to wash away the slurry, as the "10mm" feathers
are a tight fit in the 12mm hole. Plus want slippery metal-to-metal
contact, lubed with oil-graphite spray - don't want abrasive paste of
the slurry in the wedge-to-feathers contact, increasing wear and making friction.
...
------------------------
I drilled dry, outdoors, and removed the dust by blowing into a 3/8"
flexible PVC tube with a 1/8" (3mm) nozzle, that I had made to restart smouldering stove fires. The tube is long enough to keep my face away
from the dust ...
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1jzl89nyu.fsf@void.com... But
then yes how to get the adherent slurry out of the drilled
sockets...
-------------------------
https://www.bbqboxuk.com/products/2-piece-turkey-baster-set With an
extension hose, cut diagonally on the pickup end.
Hello all
Setting the scene:
"feathers" work well for splitting boulders so can be removed as
handleable rocks.
Lots of videos online eg. YouTube how to use them.
The ones I have:
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/pics/240314_feathers_holes.jpg
from page http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""
They work really well.
But these "10mm" feathers need a 14mm-dia socket.
The wedge is visibly oversized=overthickness for the feathers.
Saving just two mm of thickness would surely enable using a 12mm
socket. Useful saving on drilling (14mm -> 12mm)
(/ (expt 12 2) (float (expt 14 2))) ;; 0.7346938775510204
73% of vol drilled - and the impact is concentrated on the smaller
cutting tip.
The question:
How would you go about producting wedges about 2mm to 3mm thinner than
the current ones?
Doing something to the current wedges would be okay.
Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so - "spring-temper"?
We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).
Always appreciated the range of knowledge here.
Regards,
Rich Smith
Richard Smith <null@void.com> writes:
Hello all
Setting the scene:
"feathers" work well for splitting boulders so can be removed as
handleable rocks.
Lots of videos online eg. YouTube how to use them.
The ones I have:
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/pics/240314_feathers_holes.jpg
from page
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""
They work really well.
But these "10mm" feathers need a 14mm-dia socket.
The wedge is visibly oversized=overthickness for the feathers.
Saving just two mm of thickness would surely enable using a 12mm
socket. Useful saving on drilling (14mm -> 12mm)
(/ (expt 12 2) (float (expt 14 2))) ;; 0.7346938775510204
73% of vol drilled - and the impact is concentrated on the smaller
cutting tip.
The question:
How would you go about producting wedges about 2mm to 3mm thinner than
the current ones?
Doing something to the current wedges would be okay.
Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so -
"spring-temper"?
We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).
Always appreciated the range of knowledge here.
Regards,
Rich Smith
Follow-up, for what it's worth...
This is about my "10mm" (~ 3/8inch) rock-splitting feathers.
As-supplied, they need a 14mm diameter socket to fit-in in the rock you
want to split.
I ground three wedges thinner so they will fit in a 12mm socket.
Which I have been the "feathers" I have used for breaking up "rocks" lying-about in the hobby mine.
The request is : preferably don't send rocks in the skip up the haulage
shaft which are much bigger than a loaf of bread.
So I have been rapidly drilling-in a couple or three sockets in stones
and splitting them "rapidly" - skip-loads to surface (given our "mine"
is tiny and so is the skip in the haulage-shaft).
Recent finding for "boulders" which are bigger than two people could
carry...
You need the stiffness of the wedges in the feathers-and-wedge's
as-supplied.
So that was got right as-supplied.
My SDS "cordless" battery-powered drill is fast at 12mm but definitely
taking more than pro-rata longer at 14mm.
Mustn't make dust down in the mine, as the fine silica dust would
circulate around and be breathed-in by everyone.
So must drill under water-flood (keeps the drill cool, too).
Nett...
Go around your boulder with a pilot-drill size, doing the various planes along which you intend to split it, then go around again with the 14mm
drill, then use the feathers lined along each plane to do the splitting.
Seems 7mm pilot-hole size would be ideal
* 6mm too small - the SDS cordless drill can "over-power" it into the
hard granite and a moment's inattention can have it red-hot then
destroyed.
* 8mm drills well but maybe unnecessarily large
Unfortunately (?) masonry drill sizes go in 2mm increments. So I have
to go with 8mm.
The one about water-flood - if the drilling is going at a good rate,
it takes less concentration and you can be happily holding the
water-bottle in the other hand, squeezing a fast fine jet through a
small hole in the lid which sprays onto the rotating drill at the point
it goes into the rock.
Yesterday a mining engineer and a civil engineer watched how I split a boulder...
Seem to be doing something right...
Thanks for the help the nearly 3 months ago when I was trying for find
my way with this.
Rich Smith
The Amazon / Acofuns wedges are shown to be 10mm wide for the 10mm
nominal size. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Acofuns-Wedges-Feather-Concrete-Splitter/dp/B0B5PHTNJW
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m14j9szhkz.fsf@void.com...
The Amazon / Acofuns wedges are shown to be 10mm wide for the 10mm
nominal size.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Acofuns-Wedges-Feather-Concrete-Splitter/dp/B0B5PHTNJW
Mine look identical as-arrived.
My guess - same manufacturer - same "model".
If so, they fit in a 14mm dia. socket.
-----------------------------------
Can you start the wedge at all between the feathers in a 10mm hole?
Mine fit the nominal size hole with the wedge somewhat less than half
way in. It scraped and gouged the feathers until I rounded and
smoothed the leading edge corners of the wedges. I straighten the
feathers on the anvil after use. Next time I might rub bar soap on
them as a dry lube.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 508 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 05:43:46 |
| Calls: | 9,990 |
| Calls today: | 8 |
| Files: | 13,836 |
| Messages: | 6,359,280 |
| Posted today: | 1 |
