Hi there
Ran SDS out of battery in one session at the mine - first time.
Is 18V - believe it's badged in the USA as 20V, but the physics of the
Li-ion cells surely says in reality it's the same batteries and
voltage (?).
Went by tool store - no 5Ah batteries I asked for.
Said well it's 12 UKPounds per Amp-hour, and we do have 4Ah
batteries.
Thinking - well take two identical 4Ah batteries, swap occasionally, >running-down charge in both?
4Ah battery is better in every other tool which takes that form of
battery - screwdrivers, twist-drill drills, etc.
But the draw of the "big" SDS drill - the biggest which takes the
"small" batteries - that power draw would go across more cells if a
5Ah battery. Would have been better?
What do you say?
PS - SDS drill drilling the sockets in granite to insert the
feathers&wedge to split granite boulders - simply a regular workhorse
now.
Also use for "misc" other tasks - drill holes into which hammer in wood
for screws holding light-fittings, etc, etc.
Hi there
Ran SDS out of battery in one session at the mine - first time.
Is 18V - believe it's badged in the USA as 20V, but the physics of the
Li-ion cells surely says in reality it's the same batteries and
voltage (?).
Went by tool store - no 5Ah batteries I asked for.
Said well it's 12 UKPounds per Amp-hour, and we do have 4Ah
batteries.
Thinking - well take two identical 4Ah batteries, swap occasionally, >running-down charge in both?
4Ah battery is better in every other tool which takes that form of
battery - screwdrivers, twist-drill drills, etc.
But the draw of the "big" SDS drill - the biggest which takes the
"small" batteries - that power draw would go across more cells if a
5Ah battery. Would have been better?
What do you say?
Regards,
Rich Smith
PS - SDS drill drilling the sockets in granite to insert theAre these lithium or NiMH? If lithium, which type? Some batteries can
feathers&wedge to split granite boulders - simply a regular workhorse
now.
Also use for "misc" other tasks - drill holes into which hammer in wood
for screws holding light-fittings, etc, etc.
Hi Clare, Jim, everyone.If it is a MAX it is a 5S x 2P pack running LG HB4 1865 LiNiMnCoO2
These are DeWalt powertool batteries - 18V (20V?).
This characteristic you identify "1C" etc. becomes knowable?
Rich S
Hi Clare, Jim, everyone.Are these MAX or XR batteries?
These are DeWalt powertool batteries - 18V (20V?).
This characteristic you identify "1C" etc. becomes knowable?
Rich S
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:v28e5m$2btdu$1@dont-email.me...
I found in a lot of cordless tools the higher amp hour rated battery the better. Generally I have not noted it for light load tools like a
cordless drill using small bits, but things like electric chainsaw,
angle grinder, etc it was very noticeable. I do not mean just that the bigger AH rating ran longer. I mean it delivered more current in a
short fixed time period. The tool performed better. I've experienced
this with relatively cheap lines like Harbor Freights Bauer line and
with better pro and pro-sumer cordless tools like Milwaukee and DeWalt.
If you follow the YouTube channel "The Torque Test Channel" they mirror
this result with more subjective data across a range of tools including drills and impact wrenches.
----------------------------
Interesting. My high powered tools are corded and I don't have recent experience with new battery tools, or much else that's new, I just
prepped a 37 year old garden tractor for summer. Maybe the higher Ah
packs are newer tech that performs better. Lithium batteries are still evolving.
https://www.joules-solar.com/articles/lto-vs-lifepo4-chemistry
On 5/17/2024 2:41 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:v28e5m$2btdu$1@dont-email.me...
I found in a lot of cordless tools the higher amp hour rated battery the
better. Generally I have not noted it for light load tools like a
cordless drill using small bits, but things like electric chainsaw,
angle grinder, etc it was very noticeable. I do not mean just that the
bigger AH rating ran longer. I mean it delivered more current in a
short fixed time period. The tool performed better. I've experienced
this with relatively cheap lines like Harbor Freights Bauer line and
with better pro and pro-sumer cordless tools like Milwaukee and DeWalt.
If you follow the YouTube channel "The Torque Test Channel" they mirror
this result with more subjective data across a range of tools including
drills and impact wrenches.
----------------------------
Interesting. My high powered tools are corded and I don't have recent
experience with new battery tools, or much else that's new, I just
prepped a 37 year old garden tractor for summer. Maybe the higher Ah
packs are newer tech that performs better. Lithium batteries are still
evolving.
https://www.joules-solar.com/articles/lto-vs-lifepo4-chemistry
I think its more likely adjustment of the internal BMS depending on how
the larger battery is configured to make it larger. For instance if it
has an extra bank of cells it can 100% certainly deliver more current.
Just like tying two car batteries in parallel gives you more current capacity. I expect larger cells might also be capable of more current
if the conductors are sized accordingly.
On Fri, 17 May 2024 11:19:08 +0100, Richard Smith <null@void.com>
wrote:
Hi Clare, Jim, everyone.Are these MAX or XR batteries?
These are DeWalt powertool batteries - 18V (20V?).
This characteristic you identify "1C" etc. becomes knowable?
Rich S
On Fri, 17 May 2024 11:19:08 +0100, Richard Smith <null@void.com>
wrote:
Hi Clare, Jim, everyone.If it is a MAX it is a 5S x 2P pack running LG HB4 1865 LiNiMnCoO2
These are DeWalt powertool batteries - 18V (20V?).
This characteristic you identify "1C" etc. becomes knowable?
Rich S
cells rated at 1500Mah with a max current of 30 amps which is a 20C rating!!!.
I strongly suspect the 5Ah pack uses higher capacity cells - which
ALMOST ALWAYS means lower max current rating - so you likely made the
right move.
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:v28jc3$2cs45$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/17/2024 2:41 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I think its more likely adjustment of the internal BMS depending on how
the larger battery is configured to make it larger. For instance if it
has an extra bank of cells it can 100% certainly deliver more current.
Just like tying two car batteries in parallel gives you more current capacity. I expect larger cells might also be capable of more current
if the conductors are sized accordingly.
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
-------------------------------------
Beyond the BMS limits, the capacity and internal resistance depend on
details of the chemical formulation and physical structure, such as
particle size, which may be trade secrets. I've read that they can be
traded off depending on the intended load current, higher resistance for greater capacity and vice versa. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-does-c-mean-lithium-ion-batteries-bruce-feng
Marine batteries are similar, the high capacity deep cycle ones for
trolling motors aren't recommended for engine starting current.
Hi all
Thanks for comment.
At the time I needed it there were only 4Ah batteries in stock, and I
got what I got.
I must be doing something right, because I got into the meet/introduce/interview event of a local mine which is re-opening.
For light tools 4Ah is fine and I now have two.
If I do lot-lot-lot of bigger drilling, might stock-up on higher Ah batteries. Come that time there could be some "new" battery I am glad
it is my option to get.
Comment / reminder - I got the biggest drill using "small tool" batteries.
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:v2bokb$36cch$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/17/2024 11:23 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
Hi all
Thanks for comment.
At the time I needed it there were only 4Ah batteries in stock, and I
got what I got.
I must be doing something right, because I got into the
meet/introduce/interview event of a local mine which is re-opening.
For light tools 4Ah is fine and I now have two.
If I do lot-lot-lot of bigger drilling, might stock-up on higher Ah
batteries. Come that time there could be some "new" battery I am glad
it is my option to get.
Comment / reminder - I got the biggest drill using "small tool"
batteries.
To be fair... My experience is that you still get useful power out of
the "moderately" large batteries like your 4AH as opposed to 5AH. It
just may not be "as powerful."Â Where you see huge differences in base
power even over a very very short time is the smaller batteries. Often
the "cheap" batteries packaged with an all in one kit. Tool/battery/charger... They don't give you full power for a short
time. They just don't give you full power at all.
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
----------------------------
If you could access the electrical circuit a PZEM-051 meter would give
you all the useful data. For under $20 they measure DC up to 100V and
100A, calculate the power and the total energy in Watt-hours.
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:v2b0j1$2u9ft$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/17/2024 5:56 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I have a bit more experience with marine deep cycle lead acid
batteries, and I don't think its as big of a deal as you think. ...
Bob La Londe
I post what I've seen at reliable sources, it's as cautious as the
battery manufacturers choose to be.
Personally I test batteries by loading them down with a carbon pile
until they scream for mercy, and rarely mention the results because they
vary so widely. I tested stuff to and beyond its limits professionally
and have acquired or built the gear to find those limits at home. I
don't blow up batteries any more but I have tested circuit breakers to destruction.
UL "safety" testing is -dangerous-, much smoke and flame. The old
theatre curtain recipe of dipping cotton cloth in a solution of alum and borax really does let it pass the vertical burning test. https://elteklabs.com/test-capabilities/material-tests/flame-fire-hazard/
On 5/17/2024 5:56 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v28jc3$2cs45$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/17/2024 2:41 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I think its more likely adjustment of the internal BMS depending on how
the larger battery is configured to make it larger. For instance if it
has an extra bank of cells it can 100% certainly deliver more current.
Just like tying two car batteries in parallel gives you more current
capacity. I expect larger cells might also be capable of more current
if the conductors are sized accordingly.
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
-------------------------------------
Beyond the BMS limits, the capacity and internal resistance depend on
details of the chemical formulation and physical structure, such as
particle size, which may be trade secrets. I've read that they can be
traded off depending on the intended load current, higher resistance for
greater capacity and vice versa.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-does-c-mean-lithium-ion-batteries-bruce-feng
Marine batteries are similar, the high capacity deep cycle ones for
trolling motors aren't recommended for engine starting current.
I think you are over thinking it. Sure changes in technology can make a >difference, but often larger battery packs are just larger. Quite often
when you dig into various mid to good quality battery packs you find
they have the same cells from the same manufacturer. Assembly quality
is an issue, as is the choice and programming of the BMS, but the cells
are the same.
I have a bit more experience with marine deep cycle lead acid batteries,
and I don't think its as big of a deal as you think. I've even run
combined usage with the base ground battery doing double duty as the
cranking battery and the ground battery for the trolling motor. I've
done it for years, and other anglers I know have done it for years
before me. Its a way to run a larger trolling motor when battery space
is limited. I did run four batteries in my current 20'10" bass boat
because I have the room for them. In my newest smaller acquisition
there is no space for 4 batteries, but I noticed it has a 36V trolling
motor on the bow. They have just been running it on 24V. Runs fine.
Just less power. I'll be converting it to the dual usage cranking
battery configuration as soon as I have enough play money to buy all new >matching batteries for that one. Could they get better life if
configured differently. Maybe. That all is a bit of a tangent though.
--With cylindrical lothium batteries the cells are all pretty much the
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
On 5/18/2024 7:33 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v2b0j1$2u9ft$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/17/2024 5:56 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I have a bit more experience with marine deep cycle lead acid
batteries, and I don't think its as big of a deal as you think. ...
Bob La Londe
I post what I've seen at reliable sources, it's as cautious as the
battery manufacturers choose to be.
Personally I test batteries by loading them down with a carbon pile
until they scream for mercy, and rarely mention the results because they
vary so widely. I tested stuff to and beyond its limits professionally
and have acquired or built the gear to find those limits at home. I
don't blow up batteries any more but I have tested circuit breakers to
destruction.
UL "safety" testing is -dangerous-, much smoke and flame. The old
theatre curtain recipe of dipping cotton cloth in a solution of alum and
borax really does let it pass the vertical burning test.
https://elteklabs.com/test-capabilities/material-tests/flame-fire-hazard/
I never was employed doing destructive testing, but I did spend a decade
or two doing low voltage communication contracting. I learned there is
what they say, and there is what there is. Usually what they say fell
short in my field, but sometimes it didn't.
When they say an IR motion sensor will detect motion at 90 feet they
mean if ambient is below 70F and the subject is large and is running a
fever. LOL. They don't say if ambient is 90+ its virtually worthless.
Seriously there are thousands of bass boats that don't have room for 4
big deep cycles batteries running just three in series for the 36V TM
and tapping the positive of the ground battery for nominal 12V for
cranking and accessories. The big thing is to charge as soon as they
cool down (or get back to the hotel), and to have three equal batteries.
With most pros running 20-23 foot glitter barges these days most have
plenty of room in the back for batteries, but some older boats and/or
smaller boats didn't. Many have also switched over to a single high
voltage lithium for their TM battery for motors upto 48V. I wonder how
they do on the Potomac in a winter tournament before sunrise when the
water gels on the line and freezes in the reel. The lead acid deep
cycles would work. Something has to keep the lithiums from dropping to >ambient temperature.
Anyway, this is all tangent of tangent now.
--Just keep the trolling motor running under load and the batteries
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:v2djrv$3hfus$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/18/2024 7:33 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I never was employed doing destructive testing, but I did spend a decade
or two doing low voltage communication contracting. I learned there is
what they say, and there is what there is. Usually what they say fell
short in my field, but sometimes it didn't.
When they say an IR motion sensor will detect motion at 90 feet they
mean if ambient is below 70F and the subject is large and is running a fever. LOL. They don't say if ambient is 90+ its virtually worthless.
---------------------
Most of the testing was to find and reject or reclassify parts that
didn't meet specifications for companies that cared, or burn-in testing
to weed out early failures by operating at elevated temperature for a
week. The exact conditions were usually secret, I had to provide a range
of adjustment. Sometimes there had to be provision for destructive
failure, such as Chrysler Lean Burn engine controllers with components
not rated for possible under-hood temperatures.
Before Congress mandated emissions and fuel economy standards that
needed electronic control to meet, the only electronic device in a car
was the radio which the auto makers bought, they had to hire new
engineers unfamiliar with the heat, water, dirt, salt and vibration, who
took time to learn. I had the partial advantages of military electronic experience which solves those, in commercially unaffordable ways, plus a hands-on apprenticeship in custom electro-mechanical machine design. The engine compartment environment can be nearly as challenging as military aircraft specs, consider a snow plow driver in Alaska starting cold and diving full throttle into the deep snow in front of the truck, or
splashing through an icy puddle.
Heat in the South is another issue that's not so evident in Michigan. I
know what Atlanta is like in summer.
On 5/19/2024 4:17 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe"Â wrote in message news:v2djrv$3hfus$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/18/2024 7:33 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I never was employed doing destructive testing, but I did spend a decade
or two doing low voltage communication contracting. I learned there is
what they say, and there is what there is. Usually what they say fell
short in my field, but sometimes it didn't.
When they say an IR motion sensor will detect motion at 90 feet they
mean if ambient is below 70F and the subject is large and is running a
fever. LOL. They don't say if ambient is 90+ its virtually worthless.
---------------------
Most of the testing was to find and reject or reclassify parts that
didn't meet specifications for companies that cared, or burn-in
testing to weed out early failures by operating at elevated
temperature for a week. The exact conditions were usually secret, I
had to provide a range of adjustment. Sometimes there had to be
provision for destructive failure, such as Chrysler Lean Burn engine
controllers with components not rated for possible under-hood
temperatures.
Before Congress mandated emissions and fuel economy standards that
needed electronic control to meet, the only electronic device in a car
was the radio which the auto makers bought, they had to hire new
engineers unfamiliar with the heat, water, dirt, salt and vibration,
who took time to learn. I had the partial advantages of military
electronic experience which solves those, in commercially unaffordable
ways, plus a hands-on apprenticeship in custom electro-mechanical
machine design. The engine compartment environment can be nearly as
challenging as military aircraft specs, consider a snow plow driver in
Alaska starting cold and diving full throttle into the deep snow in
front of the truck, or splashing through an icy puddle.
Heat in the South is another issue that's not so evident in Michigan.
I know what Atlanta is like in summer.
Bell Labs had material test sites down here in the Sonoran Desert for environmental testing. Death Valley may be the only place in North
America more hostile than the low Sonoran Desert. They had panels setup with material samples affixed out along the southern rail line right of way. Maybe they still do (if they are still some form of Bell Labs). I haven't checked in a long time.
On 5/19/2024 4:29 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:You can put on extra clothes until you are warm - you can't take off
On 5/19/2024 4:17 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:v2djrv$3hfus$1@dont-email.me...
On 5/18/2024 7:33 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I never was employed doing destructive testing, but I did spend a decade >>> or two doing low voltage communication contracting. I learned there is
what they say, and there is what there is. Usually what they say fell
short in my field, but sometimes it didn't.
When they say an IR motion sensor will detect motion at 90 feet they
mean if ambient is below 70F and the subject is large and is running a
fever. LOL. They don't say if ambient is 90+ its virtually worthless.
---------------------
Most of the testing was to find and reject or reclassify parts that
didn't meet specifications for companies that cared, or burn-in
testing to weed out early failures by operating at elevated
temperature for a week. The exact conditions were usually secret, I
had to provide a range of adjustment. Sometimes there had to be
provision for destructive failure, such as Chrysler Lean Burn engine
controllers with components not rated for possible under-hood
temperatures.
Before Congress mandated emissions and fuel economy standards that
needed electronic control to meet, the only electronic device in a car
was the radio which the auto makers bought, they had to hire new
engineers unfamiliar with the heat, water, dirt, salt and vibration,
who took time to learn. I had the partial advantages of military
electronic experience which solves those, in commercially unaffordable
ways, plus a hands-on apprenticeship in custom electro-mechanical
machine design. The engine compartment environment can be nearly as
challenging as military aircraft specs, consider a snow plow driver in
Alaska starting cold and diving full throttle into the deep snow in
front of the truck, or splashing through an icy puddle.
Heat in the South is another issue that's not so evident in Michigan.
I know what Atlanta is like in summer.
Bell Labs had material test sites down here in the Sonoran Desert for
environmental testing. Death Valley may be the only place in North
America more hostile than the low Sonoran Desert. They had panels setup
with material samples affixed out along the southern rail line right of
way. Maybe they still do (if they are still some form of Bell Labs). I
haven't checked in a long time.
I'm not a fan of Michigan weather. My wife used to go to the Wheatland
Music festival every year and of course she convinced me to go one time.
Middle of summer. Should have been fine. It rained everyday (most of
the day) and we camped out. I was cold and wet the entire time, and of >course I felt like I came down with a cold the second day... and she >volunteered us to work the info booth one shift every day. Can't say
how many times I said, "Ice truck is that," "Bathrooms are that way."
When I was a kid I wanted to live where there was snow and trees.
Now... No. I am good right here. Yeah the heat is miserable, but its >familiar, and my office is air conditioned. Actually, so is my main CNC >machine room now. The rest of the shop... well an ice tea tastes so
much better when I get out of the main shop and back into the office.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
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