It may or may not be useful to also press the "I have the same question" button.
https://support.google.com/groups/thread/231067143/how-can-we-prevent-the-relentless-spam-targeting-usenet-groups?hl=en
On 8/29/23 07:16, Paul W. Schleck wrote:
It may or may not be useful to also press the "I have the same question" button.
<https://support.google.com/groups/thread/231067143/how-can-we-prevent-the-relentless-spam-targeting-usenet-groups?hl=en>
Seems to me the best way to stop seeing spam is to set up a filter to
delete all posts with a gmail.com email address.
I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only
impractical, but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access
Usenet not by a dedicated client through a server of News Network
Protocol, but by the Usenet to Web interface of Google Groups. As
Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhile posters would be discarded by
the too simplistic method of filtering out those who post from an
address of Google GMail, although as he correctly informs, the address
of origin and the client used are different concepts. However,
blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.
In my case I am practically forced to work with an Apple IPad tablet.
There is no good NNTP software for IPad. No executables have been
created by Apple itself. Only three of them by independent
programmers, available at the Apple Store and in other places, but
NONE of the three is good. They are all very defective, accessing News
Groups with them is a pain. So, there is no other solution than the
infamous Google Groups portal between the protocols NNTP and HTTP (or
HTTPS) used by the two services, respectively Usenet and World Wide
Web. And NOTHING ELSE.
The fortunate individual who works with Linux, or BSD, or Solaris, or
another suitable system of the Unics family, has not such a problem,
because he has plenty of good software available for NNTP. Even the
mass of ignorants who use Microsoft Windows have not such a problem,
they also have software. But those of us in IPad HAVE such a problem.
What would Mister RDH recommend to us ? To build our own software from scratch ? It is in theory possible, but it would be like recommending
to someone who wants to travel across the Atlantic Ocean to build his
own transatlantic ship. Surely, reinventing the ocean-going raft is
also an alternative in the pure theory, but not free of very serious
risks.
At the moment, we have no other solution than Google Groups, no matter
what people like Mister RDH may say of us.
Dixieland for ever !
CSS Dixieland
It may or may not be useful to also press the "I have the same
question" button.
Seems to me the best way to stop seeing spam is to set up a filter to
delete all posts with a gmail.com email address.
CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:
N.B. Please try to set your line length to some more reasonable value.
I'm sure the Google Groups web UI can do that.
I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only
impractical, but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access
Usenet not by a dedicated client through a server of News Network
Protocol, but by the Usenet to Web interface of Google Groups. As
Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhile posters would be discarded by
the too simplistic method of filtering out those who post from an
address of Google GMail, although as he correctly informs, the address
of origin and the client used are different concepts. However,
blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.
Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the
tools they use.
Anyway, as I just posted in a thread in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,
in most newsreaders, one can easily filter on people using Google Group >or/and having a gmail.com address and whitelist the good guys. That's
what I do for another group which is frequented by gmail.com 'spammers'.
In my case I am practically forced to work with an Apple IPad tablet.
There is no good NNTP software for IPad. . . .
The fortunate individual who works with Linux, or BSD, or Solaris, or >>another suitable system of the Unics family, has not such a problem, >>because he has plenty of good software available for NNTP. Even the
mass of ignorants who use Microsoft Windows have not such a problem,
they also have software. But those of us in IPad HAVE such a problem.
IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI >newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).
BTW, please don't talk about "the mass of ignorants who use Microsoft
Windows", because that makes you sound exactly like those you are >criticising.
. . .
CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:[...]
The fortunate individual who works with Linux, or BSD, or Solaris, or another suitable system of the Unics family, has not such a problem, because he has plenty of good software available for NNTP. Even the
mass of ignorants who use Microsoft Windows have not such a problem,
they also have software. But those of us in IPad HAVE such a problem.
IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).
Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:
N.B. Please try to set your line length to some more reasonable value.
I'm sure the Google Groups web UI can do that.
I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only >>impractical, but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access >>Usenet not by a dedicated client through a server of News Network >>Protocol, but by the Usenet to Web interface of Google Groups. As
Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhile posters would be discarded by
the too simplistic method of filtering out those who post from an
address of Google GMail, although as he correctly informs, the address
of origin and the client used are different concepts. However,
blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.
Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the
tools they use.
And you're wrong. It is impossible for a Google Groups user to post
a conventional plain text article through the Google Groups Web interface.
It's not "judgemental" but observation. It's always extra work to post a followup or, more likely, to post a followup to someone who quoted in followup an article from Google Groups. I have to find the non-printing non-ASCII characters which violate the plain text convention and remove
them. There are plenty of newsreaders in use that don't adequately
translate non-ASCII into the character set they are using, so the
non-ASCII characters are turned into gobledegook. This is a
long-standing well known problem with incompatibility in Usenet that
Google Groups makes worse with its inability to produce plain text.
When one doesn't post a plain-text article to Usenet, it's a matter of telling the rest of us, "It looks fine on my screen. I don't care how it appears on your screen. I don't care if it's likely to get mistranslated
by others."
Stop defending it. It's indefensible. Non-printing characters DO NOT
belong on Usenet. It's ridiculous that they are in such wide-spread use
on the Web and in word processing but those aren't comparable network issues.
And then there's use of non-ASCII characters in lieu of ASCII characters where the exist, like open and close single and double quote and
non-ASCII points of suspension and non-ASCII em dash. Again, there are
plenty of people using newsreaders that do not properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't set in the newsreader).
This is a known problem. This can be turned off in Google Groups by overriding one of the defaults.
You yourself pointed out that the user posted with a long line, probably because he's using a proportional font and cares only about how it
appears on his screen and not to others. But that's how Google Groups produces a Usenet article by default.
For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop computers.
An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart phone screen
even if one can find an appropriate newsreader.
Anyway, as I just posted in a thread in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,
in most newsreaders, one can easily filter on people using Google Group >or/and having a gmail.com address and whitelist the good guys. That's
what I do for another group which is frequented by gmail.com 'spammers'.
You made a point that there should be on filtering based on use of a
Gmail address, so I disagree that you offered such a filter.
IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI >newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).
BTW, please don't talk about "the mass of ignorants who use Microsoft
Windows", because that makes you sound exactly like those you are >criticising.
I use Windows for certain purposes because I have certain mission-critical applications that require Windows. I don't use Windows for Mail and News because I don't like the clients. I like my Unix clients, so I access
News and Mail from a terminal window.
I don't use a butterknife to cut meat. I have more than one knife
available to me in the kitchen. I don't use a slotted screwdriver bit to
turn a Philips-head screw. I don't use a sledgehammer to pound nails.
Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:
N.B. Please try to set your line length to some more reasonable value. >>>I'm sure the Google Groups web UI can do that.
I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only >>>>impractical, but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access >>>>Usenet not by a dedicated client through a server of News Network >>>>Protocol, but by the Usenet to Web interface of Google Groups. As >>>>Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhile posters would be discarded by >>>>the too simplistic method of filtering out those who post from an >>>>address of Google GMail, although as he correctly informs, the address >>>>of origin and the client used are different concepts. However,
blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.
Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the >>>tools they use.
And you're wrong. It is impossible for a Google Groups user to post
a conventional plain text article through the Google Groups Web interface.
I think I've seen some reasonable plain text articles from Google
Groups users. Not perfect and not even great, but reasonable. But that >experience might depend on the groups or/and posters.
. . .
This is a known problem. This can be turned off in Google Groups by >>overriding one of the defaults.
You yourself pointed out that the user posted with a long line, probably >>because he's using a proportional font and cares only about how it
appears on his screen and not to others. But that's how Google Groups >>produces a Usenet article by default.
If you know how to change those defaults, then please speak up, so we
can show Google Groups users how to become better Netizens.
For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop computers.
Fully agreed.
An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart phone screen
even if one can find an appropriate newsreader.
Note that the poster (CSS Dixieland) is using a *tablet* (iPad), not a
smartphone, so he probably has a screen which is quite capable of doing
80x24 characters.
[...]
I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only impractical, = >but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access Usenet not by a ded= >icated client through a server of News Network Protocol, but by the Usenet = >to Web interface of Google Groups. As Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhi= >le posters would be discarded by the too simplistic method of filtering out=
those who post from an address of Google GMail, although as he correctly i=
nforms, the address of origin and the client used are different concepts. H= >owever, blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.
Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't
set in the newsreader).
For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
phone screen
O 30/08/23 as 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't
set in the newsreader).
Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them
or their users should find better working implementations.
For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
phone screen
Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped.
O 30/08/23 s 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't
set in the newsreader).
Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them
or their users should find better working implementations.
For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
phone screen
Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped.
Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the tools they use.
CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:
I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only impractical, = >>but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access Usenet not by a ded= >>icated client through a server of News Network Protocol, but by the Usenet = >>to Web interface of Google Groups. As Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhi= >>le posters would be discarded by the too simplistic method of filtering out= >> those who post from an address of Google GMail, although as he correctly i= >>nforms, the address of origin and the client used are different concepts. H= >>owever, blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.
There are other web interfaces to Usenet. They are not spam sources the
way google groups is. Feel free to use one of them if you are worried about people blocking Google Groups. I am definitely inclined to support a UDP against Google Groups although I think it's probably too late to do much good.
--scott
On 8/30/23 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the >>tools they use.
I'm not really judging anyone for using Google Groups. Do you remember
what happened to the IRC in the 90s? A single host was behaving poorly,
and because the operators would not do anything to stop the griefers, it
was eventually quarantined.
Today (and for the past 5+ years), Google Groups is operating as a haven
for spammers. If they won't fix it, it's up to us, but our only recourse
is to just can all posts from them.
For what it's worth: I didn't come up with this idea. It was one that
someone told me makes Usenet a much better experience. I haven't
actually done it yet, but I know there exists a subset of people already >blocking Google Groups. My suggestion to any person who wants to
communicate on Usenet is to not use Google Groups. It's just too spammy.
rdh <rdh@tilde.institute> wrote:
On 8/30/23 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the >>> tools they use.
I'm not really judging anyone for using Google Groups. Do you remember
what happened to the IRC in the 90s? A single host was behaving poorly,
and because the operators would not do anything to stop the griefers, it
was eventually quarantined.
Today (and for the past 5+ years), Google Groups is operating as a haven
for spammers. If they won't fix it, it's up to us, but our only recourse
is to just can all posts from them.
For what it's worth: I didn't come up with this idea. It was one that
someone told me makes Usenet a much better experience. I haven't
actually done it yet, but I know there exists a subset of people already
blocking Google Groups. My suggestion to any person who wants to
communicate on Usenet is to not use Google Groups. It's just too spammy.
We've been telling people that for years, but you can't tell anyone who
is reluctant to subscribe to a News server and use a newsreader as the client. Other people have to chose to overcome their own ignorance and apathy.
Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:[...]
Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart phone screen >>even if one can find an appropriate newsreader.
Note that the poster (CSS Dixieland) is using a *tablet* (iPad), not a
smartphone, so he probably has a screen which is quite capable of doing >80x24 characters.
Good point. There are older Apple newsreaders that haven't been
supported in years but they may not work on the latest operating
systems. Do tablets have the ability to start up in linux?
I know that You work with Cygwin. I can only say that I worked with
MS-DOS until its last release in 1994, and with Windows until Windows
98, later versions of Windows were not of my liking for various
reasons. I moved first to Free-DOS, later I experimented with Minix,
BSD and Linux. Now I am temporarily attached to an Apple IPad that I
made the BLUNDER of acquiring.
This is a very brief resume of past or present projects for TRYING to[...]
emulate Linux in Apple devices:
A-Shell: Linux emulator. Files works. Better keyboard than Ish but
impossible package installation.
IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).
Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
[...]
IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).
Many Usenet users with iOS devices use Newstap to post with, available
from the iOS App Store, also on MacOS App Store for those using Apple
Silicon machines.
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
O 30/08/23 as 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
You managed to create an attribution line with a non-ASCII character in
it. Brilliant move, there.
Software rots. What else's new.Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't
set in the newsreader).
Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them
or their users should find better working implementations.
This is a well-known issue. Use of these
newsreaders long predates UTF-8's use on Usenet. In some cases, these newsreaders predate character set declaration. The newsreaders tend to
be abandoned by their authors and certain platforms don't have other
choices in newsreaders that users find acceptable.
For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
phone screen
Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped.
line wrapping does not solve the long line problem. Long lines
tend to break awkwardly.
Again, this is a well-known problem. Format=Flowed
standard was developed for the Blackberry, if I recall correctly, but
it's a poorly implemented standard. Most clients that claim to implement
it choke on reflowing quoted text. Very few output line length at 78 characters or less so it displays properly where flowed text isn't implemented.
Anyone who has been on Usenet for more than a few minutes has
encountered everything I've mentioned. Knock off the trolling here.
O 31/08/23 ás 16:38, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
O 30/08/23 as 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
You managed to create an attribution line with a non-ASCII character in
it. Brilliant move, there.
Yes? That's a key on my keyboard, it's not hard at all.
Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't
set in the newsreader).
Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them
or their users should find better working implementations.
This is a well-known issue. Use of these
newsreaders long predates UTF-8's use on Usenet. In some cases, these newsreaders predate character set declaration. The newsreaders tend to
be abandoned by their authors and certain platforms don't have other choices in newsreaders that users find acceptable.
Software rots. What else's new.
For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
phone screen
Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped.
line wrapping does not solve the long line problem. Long lines
tend to break awkwardly.
On the contrary, your short lines puts a limit on how much I can reduce
my screen, because the line breaks leave dangling words.
Again, this is a well-known problem. Format=Flowed
standard was developed for the Blackberry, if I recall correctly, but
it's a poorly implemented standard. Most clients that claim to implement
it choke on reflowing quoted text. Very few output line length at 78 characters or less so it displays properly where flowed text isn't implemented.
Right, so they *are* broken.
Anyone who has been on Usenet for more than a few minutes has
encountered everything I've mentioned. Knock off the trolling here.
I don't. My client works well enough. Also, stop the namecalling.
It may or may not be useful to also press the "I have the same question" button.
https://support.google.com/groups/thread/231067143/how-can-we-prevent-the-relentless-spam-targeting-usenet-groups?hl=en
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
O 31/08/23 ás 16:38, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
O 30/08/23 as 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
You managed to create an attribution line with a non-ASCII character in
it. Brilliant move, there.
Yes? That's a key on my keyboard, it's not hard at all.
Well, *my* 'stone-age' newsreader can set the attribution line based
on the newsgroup (or a regular expression of newsgroups). I.e. it can
show 'On','at' and 'wrote' instead of you local language (Galician?) equivalents. Why can't your 'modern' newsreader do that?
Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't >>>>> set in the newsreader).
Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them >>>> or their users should find better working implementations.
This is a well-known issue. Use of these
newsreaders long predates UTF-8's use on Usenet. In some cases, these
newsreaders predate character set declaration. The newsreaders tend to
be abandoned by their authors and certain platforms don't have other
choices in newsreaders that users find acceptable.
Software rots. What else's new.
Software doesn't 'rot'. It just keeps working like before. (FWIW, as
I said before, *I* don't object to UTF-8, when it's called for.)
line wrapping does not solve the long line problem. Long linesFor better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
phone screen
Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped. >>>
tend to break awkwardly.
On the contrary, your short lines puts a limit on how much I can reduce
my screen, because the line breaks leave dangling words.
As I said before, unwrapping 'short' lines is easy. If you want that feature, but your newsreader can't do it, then get your newsreader fixed
or get another newsreader. Don't blame the standard.
Again, this is a well-known problem. Format=Flowed
standard was developed for the Blackberry, if I recall correctly, but
it's a poorly implemented standard. Most clients that claim to implement >>> it choke on reflowing quoted text. Very few output line length at 78
characters or less so it displays properly where flowed text isn't
implemented.
Right, so they *are* broken.
No, the design of Format=Flowed is so that one can display (non-F=F)
short lines correctly and can unwrap them if desired.
But, as Adam explained, most Format=Flowed *implementations* don't properly reflow quoted text.
Again: Don't blame other newsreaders for your broken one.
Anyone who has been on Usenet for more than a few minutes has
encountered everything I've mentioned. Knock off the trolling here.
I don't. My client works well enough. Also, stop the namecalling.
Apparently your client does *not* "work well enough", otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about issues resulting from *its* limitations.
O 01/09/23 s 20:41, Frank Slootweg escribiu:[...]
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
O 31/08/23 ás 16:38, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
O 30/08/23 as 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't >>>>> set in the newsreader).
Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them >>>> or their users should find better working implementations.
This is a well-known issue. Use of these
newsreaders long predates UTF-8's use on Usenet. In some cases, these
newsreaders predate character set declaration. The newsreaders tend to >>> be abandoned by their authors and certain platforms don't have other
choices in newsreaders that users find acceptable.
Software rots. What else's new.
Software doesn't 'rot'. It just keeps working like before. (FWIW, as
I said before, *I* don't object to UTF-8, when it's called for.)
Software rots because the world keeps changing under it. An accounting
DOS program might have been feature-complete, but that doesn't matter if
I can't use it after the 2000.
For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart >>>>> phone screen
Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped.
line wrapping does not solve the long line problem. Long lines
tend to break awkwardly.
On the contrary, your short lines puts a limit on how much I can reduce
my screen, because the line breaks leave dangling words.
As I said before, unwrapping 'short' lines is easy. If you want that feature, but your newsreader can't do it, then get your newsreader fixed
or get another newsreader. Don't blame the standard.
I didn't. And wrapping long lines is a lot easier than unwrapping short lines. If vi can do it, why can't you?
Again, this is a well-known problem. Format=Flowed
standard was developed for the Blackberry, if I recall correctly, but
it's a poorly implemented standard. Most clients that claim to implement >>> it choke on reflowing quoted text. Very few output line length at 78
characters or less so it displays properly where flowed text isn't
implemented.
Right, so they *are* broken.
No, the design of Format=Flowed is so that one can display (non-F=F) short lines correctly and can unwrap them if desired.
But, as Adam explained, most Format=Flowed *implementations* don't properly reflow quoted text.
If most Format=Flowed *implementations* don't do what they are
supposed to do, then they are broken. Thanks for agreeing.
Again: Don't blame other newsreaders for your broken one.
You've got that backwards. MY newsreader properly reflows text. It's
just that YOUR newsreader doesn't enable format=flowed. If you don't
tell it to reflow, then it doesn't. Working as expected.
And again, I'm not blaming anyone.
Anyone who has been on Usenet for more than a few minutes has
encountered everything I've mentioned. Knock off the trolling here.
I don't. My client works well enough. Also, stop the namecalling.
Apparently your client does *not* "work well enough", otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about issues resulting from *its* limitations.
I never said it didn't work. And the only thing I'm complaining about is
that you want to keep using Usenet like it's still the 80s, when
encodings were a pain to use and the only screens available were CRT.
01/09/23 20:41, Frank Slootweg escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
31/08/23 16:38, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
O 30/08/23 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
You managed to create an attribution line with a non-ASCII character in >>>>it. Brilliant move, there.
Yes? That's a key on my keyboard, it's not hard at all.
Well, *my* 'stone-age' newsreader can set the attribution line based
on the newsgroup (or a regular expression of newsgroups). I.e. it can
show 'On','at' and 'wrote' instead of you local language (Galician?) >>equivalents. Why can't your 'modern' newsreader do that?
Because I don't care, like I also don't care what your newsreader can do.
. . .
Software rots because the world keeps changing under it. An accounting
DOS program might have been feature-complete, but that doesn't matter if
I can't use it after the 2000.
. . .
I didn't. And wrapping long lines is a lot easier than unwrapping short >lines. If vi can do it, why can't you?
Again, this is a well-known problem. Format=Flowed
standard was developed for the Blackberry, if I recall correctly, but >>>>it's a poorly implemented standard. Most clients that claim to implement >>>>it choke on reflowing quoted text. Very few output line length at 78 >>>>characters or less so it displays properly where flowed text isn't >>>>implemented.
Right, so they *are* broken.
No, the design of Format=Flowed is so that one can display (non-F=F) >>short lines correctly and can unwrap them if desired.
But, as Adam explained, most Format=Flowed *implementations* don't >>properly reflow quoted text.
If most Format=Flowed implementations don't do what they are
supposed to do, then they are broken. Thanks for agreeing.
Again: Don't blame other newsreaders for your broken one.
You've got that backwards. MY newsreader properly reflows text. It's
just that YOUR newsreader doesn't enable format=flowed. If you don't
tell it to reflow, then it doesn't. Working as expected.
And again, I'm not blaming anyone.
Anyone who has been on Usenet for more than a few minutes has >>>>encountered everything I've mentioned. Knock off the trolling here.
I don't. My client works well enough. Also, stop the namecalling.
Apparently your client does *not* "work well enough", otherwise you >>wouldn't be complaining about issues resulting from *its* limitations.
I never said it didn't work. And the only thing I'm complaining about is
that you want to keep using Usenet like it's still the 80s, when
encodings were a pain to use and the only screens available were CRT.
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
01/09/23 20:41, Frank Slootweg escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
31/08/23 16:38, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
O 30/08/23 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
You managed to create an attribution line with a non-ASCII character in >>>>> it. Brilliant move, there.
Yes? That's a key on my keyboard, it's not hard at all.
Well, *my* 'stone-age' newsreader can set the attribution line based
on the newsgroup (or a regular expression of newsgroups). I.e. it can
show 'On','at' and 'wrote' instead of you local language (Galician?)
equivalents. Why can't your 'modern' newsreader do that?
Because I don't care, like I also don't care what your newsreader can do.
I know you don't give a shit. You made that clear from the beginning
when you created that attribution line to deliberately cause things to
break for other Usenet users.
On text Usenet, we post in plain text, and when writing in English, we
use ASCII. Why? ASCII is universal. ASCII is never mistranslated by
anybody's newsreader.
We don't write an article entirely in English that requires no ASCII characters in it at all, then create an attribution line that has a
single non-ASCII character in it in order to force the issue of
declaring the use of a non-ASCII character set that won't be correctly
quoted in followup when using certain newsreaders.
When called out on bad behavior, we don't argue the point in followup
after followup, denying reality. You're just seeking attention.
Software rots because the world keeps changing under it. An accounting
DOS program might have been feature-complete, but that doesn't matter if
I can't use it after the 2000.
Nope. You don't get to redefine words with well-known definitions like
"rot", then declare that you've won the argument. It doesn't work like
that.
Again: Don't blame other newsreaders for your broken one.
You've got that backwards. MY newsreader properly reflows text. It's
just that YOUR newsreader doesn't enable format=flowed. If you don't
tell it to reflow, then it doesn't. Working as expected.
You have no evidence that Frank's newsreader failed to correctly
implement Format=Flowed.
And again, I'm not blaming anyone.
You're blaming everybody else, actually.
Anyone who has been on Usenet for more than a few minutes has
encountered everything I've mentioned. Knock off the trolling here.
I don't. My client works well enough. Also, stop the namecalling.
Apparently your client does *not* "work well enough", otherwise you
wouldn't be complaining about issues resulting from *its* limitations.
I never said it didn't work. And the only thing I'm complaining about is
that you want to keep using Usenet like it's still the 80s, when
encodings were a pain to use and the only screens available were CRT.
You're blaming everybody else, actually.
You're just running your mouth.
An unofficial UDP against Google Groups is almost as good. Drop the
messages and tell your peers you're dropping them. Note it on your
peering page. If it becomes known that a high percentage of servers are >dropping GG messages, the best-case scenario is that *good* posters find
new servers and the *bad* posters continue to use GG (and get ignored).
02/09/23 16:47, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
01/09/23 20:41, Frank Slootweg escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
31/08/23 16:38, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
30/08/23 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
You managed to create an attribution line with a non-ASCII character in >>>>>>it. Brilliant move, there.
Yes? That's a key on my keyboard, it's not hard at all.
Well, *my* 'stone-age' newsreader can set the attribution line based >>>>on the newsgroup (or a regular expression of newsgroups). I.e. it can >>>>show 'On','at' and 'wrote' instead of you local language (Galician?) >>>>equivalents. Why can't your 'modern' newsreader do that?
Because I don't care, like I also don't care what your newsreader can do.
I know you don't give a shit. You made that clear from the beginning
when you created that attribution line to deliberately cause things to >>break for other Usenet users.
I didn't. . . .
I'm not blaming. I'm arguing that in this day and age you can use
Unicode in text posts, and that lines can be more than 72 chars wide.
O 02/09/23 s 16:47, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
And again, I'm not blaming anyone.
You're blaming everybody else, actually.
I'm not blaming. I'm arguing that in this day and age you can use
Unicode in text posts, and that lines can be more than 72 chars wide.
Mister Slootweg, You are becoming FASTIDIOUS, and I am not very
patient with people who DO NOT WANT to understand.
And as for me, I do not understand what You mean by "stripping again
the other original groups", because Your words seem to assume that I
know something, but I have no idea of what that 'something' may be.
Write more complete explanations, AS I DO. Do not leave the reader
wondering what You may have meant.
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.fan.usenet,alt.culture.usenet
Of course I have read a considerable part of the documentation of
A-Shell and of ISH. Maybe not every detail, but my procedure is ALWAYS
to begin by reading the available documentation of the software that I install. I have experience of YEARS with computers, I am not an
ignorant born yesterday.
The only interface between World Wide Web and Usenet of which I am
aware is Google Groups. Deja News does not exist anymore, and I have
no idea of which may be the other interfaces suggested by Mister Scott Dorsey, if indeed any other interfaces exist.
In stead of formulating useless questions without providing any valid information, Mister Slootweg, You could do much more service to every
one by INFORMING of which are those Web to Usenet interfaces, or by
providing other solutions for accessing Usenet 'in the proper way'
from Apple IPad.
Google is NOT the only search engine for the World Wide Web, there are
better options available. One is Duck Duck Go, and there are others.
Do not ask again a battery of unnecessary questions. Put Yourself in
the place of an experienced person whose only devices are, at present,
an Apple IPad tablet and a Galaxy mobile telephone running Android
Linux.
[Stripped newsgroups restored, again.]
CSS Dixieland wrote:
Mister Slootweg, You are becoming FASTIDIOUS, and I am not veryStep away from that mirror, *NOW!* :-(
patient with people who DO NOT WANT to understand.
And as for me, I do not understand what You mean by "stripping againSigh! The original posting was posted to:
the other original groups", because Your words seem to assume that I
know something, but I have no idea of what that 'something' may be.
Write more complete explanations, AS I DO. Do not leave the reader wondering what You may have meant.
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.fan.usenet,alt.culture.usenet
But *your* responses were only posted to alt.fan.usenet. So the
question was/is, who/what stripped the other newsgroups, you or Google Groups?
To add insult to injury, this time you even managed to respond to the
wrong article. Your response references (References: header) one of my responses to *Parodper*, instead of to you. Even GG should be able to show/perform the correct threading.
[...]
Of course I have read a considerable part of the documentation ofBut, even with all that experience, you can't be bothered saying what
A-Shell and of ISH. Maybe not every detail, but my procedure is ALWAYS
to begin by reading the available documentation of the software that I install. I have experience of YEARS with computers, I am not an
ignorant born yesterday.
went wrong, what errors you got, etc.. Got it!
The only interface between World Wide Web and Usenet of which I am
aware is Google Groups. Deja News does not exist anymore, and I have
no idea of which may be the other interfaces suggested by Mister Scott Dorsey, if indeed any other interfaces exist.
In stead of formulating useless questions without providing any valid information, Mister Slootweg, You could do much more service to everySigh! *If* I had specific information about other (than GG) web
one by INFORMING of which are those Web to Usenet interfaces, or by providing other solutions for accessing Usenet 'in the proper way'
from Apple IPad.
interfaces to Usenet, I would of course have given that. Because I don't
- because I have no need for them -, I pointed to Scott. So if you have questions, ask Scott, that's how these things work on Usenet.
Google is NOT the only search engine for the World Wide Web, there are better options available. One is Duck Duck Go, and there are others.You don't say!
Do not ask again a battery of unnecessary questions. Put Yourself inAh, more info popping up, even without me asking "unnecessary
the place of an experienced person whose only devices are, at present,
an Apple IPad tablet and a Galaxy mobile telephone running Android
Linux.
questions"!
As to "an experienced person", you still have show evidence to back up
that claim.
QED. HTH. EOD. HAND. NC.
On text Usenet, we post in plain text, and when writing in English, we use ASCII. Why? ASCII is universal. ASCII is never mistranslated by anybody's newsreader.
Sat, 2 Sep 2023 14:47:24 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
On text Usenet, we post in plain text, and when writing in English, we use >>ASCII. Why? ASCII is universal. ASCII is never mistranslated by anybody's >>newsreader.
("TINW". ;) (But this post is only 7-bit.)
I'm not sure, but there might be an RFC expanding on that
definition to include usage of UTF-8...and indeed,
one GNKSAI newsreader (pan) includes the
ability to insert an emoji in its editor.
Wrote about this back in March in alt.fan.usenet:
Message-ID: <pan$c9574$eaa8c0ab$897a78a7$8b3cb66@vallor.earth>
One can also use emojis on an xfce4-terminal. I think most modern terminals >will render them. The Linux tool "gnome characters" is helpful for
copying emojis to the clipboard, if your newsreader is older.
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>: >>vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Sat, 2 Sep 2023 14:47:24 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
On text Usenet, we post in plain text, and when writing in English, we >>>>use ASCII. Why? ASCII is universal. ASCII is never mistranslated by >>>>anybody's newsreader.
("TINW". ;) (But this post is only 7-bit.)
I'm not sure, but there might be an RFC expanding on that definition to >>>include usage of UTF-8...and indeed,
one GNKSAI newsreader (pan) includes the ability to insert an emoji in >>>its editor.
Even you are admitting that use of emojis isn't universal because those >>with other newsreaders aren't set up to insert or display them.
Wrote about this back in March in alt.fan.usenet:
Message-ID: <pan$c9574$eaa8c0ab$897a78a7$8b3cb66@vallor.earth>
One can also use emojis on an xfce4-terminal. I think most modern >>>terminals will render them. The Linux tool "gnome characters" is
helpful for copying emojis to the clipboard, if your newsreader is
older.
Why would I want to do that if other people cannot receive it for
display?
_Which_ "other people" are you speaking for?
Hey, this doesn't have to be complicated. Some people like plain
ASCII. Some people enjoy emojis, and can view them with their
newsreader.
Some people like listening to the radio, some people
like watching TV.
Way to completely miss the point.
If you say so.
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Sat, 2 Sep 2023 14:47:24 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
On text Usenet, we post in plain text, and when writing in English, we >>>use ASCII. Why? ASCII is universal. ASCII is never mistranslated by >>>anybody's newsreader.
("TINW". ;) (But this post is only 7-bit.)
I'm not sure, but there might be an RFC expanding on that definition to >>include usage of UTF-8...and indeed,
one GNKSAI newsreader (pan) includes the ability to insert an emoji in
its editor.
Even you are admitting that use of emojis isn't universal because those
with other newsreaders aren't set up to insert or display them.
Wrote about this back in March in alt.fan.usenet:
Message-ID: <pan$c9574$eaa8c0ab$897a78a7$8b3cb66@vallor.earth>
One can also use emojis on an xfce4-terminal. I think most modern >>terminals will render them. The Linux tool "gnome characters" is
helpful for copying emojis to the clipboard, if your newsreader is
older.
Why would I want to do that if other people cannot receive it for
display?
Way to completely miss the point.
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>: >>>vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Sat, 2 Sep 2023 14:47:24 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
On text Usenet, we post in plain text, and when writing in English, >>>>>we use ASCII. Why? ASCII is universal. ASCII is never mistranslated >>>>>by anybody's newsreader.
("TINW". ;) (But this post is only 7-bit.)
I'm not sure, but there might be an RFC expanding on that definition
to include usage of UTF-8...and indeed,
one GNKSAI newsreader (pan) includes the ability to insert an emoji in >>>>its editor.
Even you are admitting that use of emojis isn't universal because those >>>with other newsreaders aren't set up to insert or display them.
Wrote about this back in March in alt.fan.usenet:
Message-ID: <pan$c9574$eaa8c0ab$897a78a7$8b3cb66@vallor.earth>
One can also use emojis on an xfce4-terminal. I think most modern >>>>terminals will render them. The Linux tool "gnome characters" is >>>>helpful for copying emojis to the clipboard, if your newsreader is >>>>older.
Why would I want to do that if other people cannot receive it for >>>display?
_Which_ "other people" are you speaking for?
That would be people who are other than me, who aren't using a character
set including emojis (regardless of whether it's displayable in their terminal emulation) and who just want to receive plain text characters.
Hey, this doesn't have to be complicated. Some people like plain ASCII.
Some people enjoy emojis, and can view them with their newsreader.
No one not using a character set that includes emojis wants to receive emojis. Furthermore, if they quote characters they cannot display, the followup is messed up. Emojis are not plain text. It's not complicated
to understand.
Some people like listening to the radio, some people like watching TV.
You're acting like someone whose has a radio can receive a television broadcast.
Way to completely miss the point.
If you say so.
You've convinced me. You didn't miss the point. You are being obtuse, willfully.
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>: >>vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
Hey, this doesn't have to be complicated. Some people like plain ASCII. >>>Some people enjoy emojis, and can view them with their newsreader.
No one not using a character set that includes emojis wants to receive >>emojis. Furthermore, if they quote characters they cannot display, the >>followup is messed up. Emojis are not plain text. It's not complicated
to understand.
I do see your point, that is a problem. In some groups,
they aren't appropriate. As more and more newsreaders modernize,
this will be less of a problem, I dare say.
(Last commit for pan was August 27th.)
Some people like listening to the radio, some people like watching TV.
You're acting like someone whose has a radio can receive a television >>broadcast.
Or someone is acting like we should stick with radio, and never have >television on any of the spectrum. :/
Or we should stick with analog TV, instead of HDTV.
Way to completely miss the point.
If you say so.
You've convinced me. You didn't miss the point. You are being obtuse, >>willfully.
No, I just don't share your views. And I don't think I've been
rude to you, that wouldn't be called-for -- I just disagree.
BTW, if it matters: my first newsreader was rn
on HP/UX 8. That was 1991. A lot has changed
since then: it's a new millenium.
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>: >>>vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
Hey, this doesn't have to be complicated. Some people like plain >>>>ASCII.
Some people enjoy emojis, and can view them with their newsreader.
No one not using a character set that includes emojis wants to receive >>>emojis. Furthermore, if they quote characters they cannot display, the >>>followup is messed up. Emojis are not plain text. It's not complicated
to understand.
I do see your point, that is a problem. In some groups,
they aren't appropriate. As more and more newsreaders modernize, this
will be less of a problem, I dare say.
(Last commit for pan was August 27th.)
It's not really about a newsreader modernizing. It's about whether one
is communicating in plain text. If one requires an emoji to communicate, that's not plain text communication.
Plain text is its own medium of communication. It uses words to
communicate. It doesn't rely on specific fonts nor enhancements like
bold and italic and underline. Emojis are something else entirely. So
many are created so quickly that it eludes me how anybody uses them to communicate.
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:15:37 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>: >>vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>: >>>>vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
I've set Followup-To: news.software.readers , since this discussion should
go there. (See RFC citations below.)
Hey, this doesn't have to be complicated. Some people like plain
ASCII. Some people enjoy emojis, and can view them with their
newsreader.
Some people like listening to the radio, some people
like watching TV.
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:15:37 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>: >>>vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>: >>>>>vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman >>>>>><ahk@chinet.com>:
I've set Followup-To: news.software.readers , since this discussion
should go there. (See RFC citations below.)
I have no interest in having any further discussion with people who play Followup-To games.
You can write all the RFCs you like.
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