• Discord sound issues

    From Michael F. Stemper@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 25 09:39:38 2022
    Thursday morning, I fired up discord for a chat with my son, as
    I do every week. I couldn't hear him and he couldn't hear me.

    Going to Settings/Voice & Video, I found that the drop-downs for
    "INPUT DEVICE" and "OUTPUT DEVICE" showed "No Input Devices" and
    "No Output Devices", respectively, as well as being greyed out.

    Not only it didn't recognize my USB headphone/mic unit, but
    it didn't recognize the mic in my webcam. This even though it
    recognized the camera part of my webcam.

    This is a laptop, so it also has built-in mic and speakers. They
    didn't show up either. Strictly "No Input Devices" and "No Output
    Devices".

    All of the devices appeared in and were accessible by the desktop's
    "Sound Settings" panel. I could send test sounds to my headphones
    and see the VU meter change when tapping the mic.

    I've been using discord for weekly calls for over a year and prior
    to this week it always recognized my hardware just fine.

    Have any other discord (on Ubuntu) users encountered this? Does
    anybody have any suggestions on how to trouble-shoot?

    (P.S. I had just rebooted a minute or two earlier, so rebooting
    is obviously not going to help.)

    --
    Michael F. Stemper
    Always use apostrophe's and "quotation marks" properly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Michael F. Stemper on Sat Jun 25 08:03:36 2022
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    (P.S. I had just rebooted a minute or two earlier, so rebooting
    is obviously not going to help.)

    If I'm understanding this rebooting report correctly;

    - everything had been working correctly for a year
    - you rebooted
    - a minute or two later nothing was working

    I highly recommend rebooting. There's the possibility of a 'spurious'
    reboot result.

    --
    Mike Easter

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael F. Stemper@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Sat Jun 25 11:31:09 2022
    On 25/06/2022 10.03, Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    (P.S. I had just rebooted a minute or two earlier, so rebooting
    is obviously not going to help.)

    If I'm understanding this rebooting report correctly;

     - everything had been working correctly for a year
     - you rebooted
     - a minute or two later nothing was working

    I highly recommend rebooting.  There's the possibility of a 'spurious' reboot result.

    Well, I just rebooted and it had no effect on the issue.

    (To be clear, I had rebooted multiple times throughout the
    previous year, not just the one time immediately before
    the problem.)


    --
    Michael F. Stemper
    If it isn't running programs and it isn't fusing atoms, it's just bending space.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Michael F. Stemper on Sat Jun 25 10:43:04 2022
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    (P.S. I had just rebooted a minute or two earlier, so rebooting
    is obviously not going to help.)

    If I'm understanding this rebooting report correctly;

      - everything had been working correctly for a year
      - you rebooted
      - a minute or two later nothing was working

    I highly recommend rebooting.  There's the possibility of a 'spurious'
    reboot result.

    Well, I just rebooted and it had no effect on the issue.

    (To be clear, I had rebooted multiple times throughout the
    previous year, not just the one time immediately before
    the problem.)

    I see.

    The point I was trying to make is that any given boot or reboot can
    result in something being 'wrong' but the 'wrongness' isn't 'real' or
    ongoing, but spurious.

    In any case, you've clarified that the condition isn't just due to a
    spurious re/boot.

    Further troubleshooting is necessary.


    --
    Mike Easter

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul@21:1/5 to Michael F. Stemper on Sat Jun 25 18:06:22 2022
    On 6/25/2022 10:39 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    Thursday morning, I fired up discord for a chat with my son, as
    I do every week. I couldn't hear him and he couldn't hear me.

    Going to Settings/Voice & Video, I found that the drop-downs for
    "INPUT DEVICE" and "OUTPUT DEVICE" showed "No Input Devices" and
    "No Output Devices", respectively, as well as being greyed out.

    Not only it didn't recognize my USB headphone/mic unit, but
    it didn't recognize the mic in my webcam. This even though it
    recognized the camera part of my webcam.

    This is a laptop, so it also has built-in mic and speakers. They
    didn't show up either. Strictly "No Input Devices" and "No Output
    Devices".

    All of the devices appeared in and were accessible by the desktop's
    "Sound Settings" panel. I could send test sounds to my headphones
    and see the VU meter change when tapping the mic.

    I've been using discord for weekly calls for over a year and prior
    to this week it always recognized my hardware just fine.

    Have any other discord (on Ubuntu) users encountered this? Does
    anybody have any suggestions on how to trouble-shoot?

    (P.S. I had just rebooted a minute or two earlier, so rebooting
    is obviously not going to help.)


    Got out Disk29 and had a look.

    u2204
    snap discord 0.0.18
    snap discord-canary 0.0.135
    snap audacity 3.1.3
    .deb audacity 2.4.2-dfsg0-5
    *******
    U2004.3
    snap discord 0.0.18
    snap discord-canary 0.0.135
    snap audacity 3.1.3
    .deb audacity 2.3.3-1build1
    *******
    Linux Mint 20.3 UMA
    Discord, Missing in action

    It's not open source, but you can see the ingredients.

    https://dl.discordapp.net/apps/linux/0.0.18/discord-0.0.18.tar.gz

    chrome-sandbox 15,184 bytes
    chrome_100_percent.pak 141,930 bytes
    chrome_200_percent.pak 208,519 bytes
    Discord 138,954,560 bytes <=== smells like chrome ?

    *******

    It's just a wasteland of subsystems. No point trying to
    debug with Audacity. You can't debug Snaps.

    https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360047644231-Native-Wayland-Support

    If source isn't available, can't compile from source,
    may not be able to select Xorg/Wayland/PulseAudio/Pipewire,
    or perhaps even find out what it is using at any moment
    in time.

    *******

    You can try unpacking discord-0.0.18.tar.gz and using that.

    I did not see the canary build on the download page (aka a nightly).

    Paul

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael F. Stemper@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Mon Jun 27 08:20:18 2022
    On 25/06/2022 12.43, Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:

    [discord not recognizing any mics or speakers]

    I see.

    The point I was trying to make is that any given boot or reboot can result in something being 'wrong' but the 'wrongness' isn't 'real' or ongoing, but spurious.

    In any case, you've clarified that the condition isn't just due to a spurious re/boot.

    Further troubleshooting is necessary.

    Well, my trouble-shooting abilities pretty much begin and end
    with looking at /var/log/syslog. I just started discord again
    and found stuff like:

    Jun 27 08:09:50 parvicursor kernel: [161086.820620] audit_printk_skb: 603 callbacks suppressed
    Jun 27 08:09:50 parvicursor kernel: [161086.820624] audit: type=1326 audit(1656335390.253:2102): auid=4294967295 uid=1000 gid=1000 ses=4294967295 pid=14230 comm="Discord" exe="/snap/discord/137/usr/share/discord/Discord" sig=0 arch=c000003e syscall=314
    compat=0 ip=0x7f66ba5fe73d code=0x50000
    Jun 27 08:09:50 parvicursor dbus[929]: [system] Activating via systemd: service name='org.bluez' unit='dbus-org.bluez.service'
    Jun 27 08:09:50 parvicursor dbus[929]: [system] Activation via systemd failed for unit 'dbus-org.bluez.service': Unit dbus-org.bluez.service not found.
    Jun 27 08:09:50 parvicursor kernel: [161087.442359] audit: type=1400 audit(1656335390.877:2103): apparmor="DENIED" operation="open" profile="snap.discord.discord" name="/proc/14334/oom_score_adj" pid=14331 comm="ThreadPoolSingl" requested_mask="wc"
    denied_mask="wc" fsuid=1000 ouid=1000
    Jun 27 08:09:51 parvicursor dbus[1692]: apparmor="DENIED" operation="dbus_method_call" bus="session" path="/org/freedesktop/DBus" interface="org.freedesktop.DBus" member="ListNames" mask="send" name="org.freedesktop.DBus" pid=14230 label="snap.discord.
    discord" peer_label="unconfined"

    and:

    Jun 27 08:09:54 parvicursor kernel: [161091.143653] audit: type=1107 audit(1656335394.578:2108): pid=929 uid=106 auid=4294967295 ses=4294967295 msg='apparmor="DENIED" operation="dbus_method_call" bus="system" path="/org/freedesktop/login1" interface="
    org.freedesktop.login1.Manager" member="Inhibit" mask="send" name="org.freedesktop.login1" pid=14230 label="snap.discord.discord" peer_pid=927 peer_label="unconfined"
    Jun 27 08:09:54 parvicursor kernel: [161091.143653] exe="/usr/bin/dbus-daemon" sauid=106 hostname=? addr=? terminal=?'
    Jun 27 08:09:54 parvicursor kernel: [161091.213501] audit: type=1326 audit(1656335394.650:2109): auid=4294967295 uid=1000 gid=1000 ses=4294967295 pid=14355 comm="ThreadPoolForeg" exe="/snap/discord/137/usr/share/discord/Discord" sig=0 arch=c000003e
    syscall=141 compat=0 ip=0x7f66ba5fa1eb code=0x50000
    Jun 27 08:09:56 parvicursor kernel: [161092.897767] audit: type=1400 audit(1656335396.334:2110): apparmor="DENIED" operation="ptrace" profile="snap.discord.discord" pid=14230 comm="Discord" requested_mask="trace" denied_mask="trace" peer="snap.discord.
    discord"

    and:

    Jun 27 08:09:58 parvicursor dbus[1692]: apparmor="DENIED" operation="dbus_signal" bus="session" path="/com/canonical/unity/launcherentry/2248748808" interface="com.canonical.Unity.LauncherEntry" member="Update" mask="send" name="org.freedesktop.DBus"
    pid=14230 label="snap.discord.discord" peer_pid=2042 peer_label="unconfined" Jun 27 08:09:58 parvicursor kernel: [161095.399440] audit: type=1400 audit(1656335398.834:2118): apparmor="DENIED" operation="ptrace" profile="snap.discord.discord" pid=14230 comm="Discord" requested_mask="trace" denied_mask="trace" peer="snap.discord.
    discord"


    Other than the fact that "DENIED" doesn't sound good, I can't see
    any significance to any of these.

    Suggestions?
    --
    Michael F. Stemper
    If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
    more like prunes than rhubarb does.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul@21:1/5 to Michael F. Stemper on Tue Jun 28 09:33:46 2022
    On 6/28/2022 9:24 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    On 25/06/2022 12.43, Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:

    [discord not recognizing any mics or speakers]


    I highly recommend rebooting.  There's the possibility of a 'spurious' reboot result.

    Well, I just rebooted and it had no effect on the issue.

    (To be clear, I had rebooted multiple times throughout the
    previous year, not just the one time immediately before
    the problem.)

    I see.

    The point I was trying to make is that any given boot or reboot can result in something being 'wrong' but the 'wrongness' isn't 'real' or ongoing, but spurious.

    In any case, you've clarified that the condition isn't just due to a spurious re/boot.

    Further troubleshooting is necessary.

    Better than syslog, I just captured some of the copious stderr
    from discord. This looks as if it might be a clue:

    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:299): PulseAudio support is enabled.
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_mixer_manager_pulse_linux.cc:57): AudioMixerManagerLinuxPulse created
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:81): AudioDeviceLinuxPulse created
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:304): Linux PulseAudio APIs will be utilized
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:345): AttachAudioBuffer
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_buffer.cc:180): SetRecordingSampleRate(0)
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_buffer.cc:186): SetPlayoutSampleRate(0)
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_buffer.cc:200): SetRecordingChannels(0)
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_buffer.cc:206): SetPlayoutChannels(0)
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_engine.cpp:48): Creating audio engine: standard
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:365): Init
    shm_open() failed: No such file or directory
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:1625): failed to connect to PulseAudio sound server
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:144): failed to initialize PulseAudio
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:374): Audio device initialization failed.
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_coding.cpp:143): Using software Opus decoder

    I know that pulse is running because I can see it in top.

    Where do I go from here?


    Run the non-Snap version.

    Paul

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael F. Stemper@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Tue Jun 28 08:24:34 2022
    On 25/06/2022 12.43, Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:

    [discord not recognizing any mics or speakers]


    I highly recommend rebooting.  There's the possibility of a 'spurious' reboot result.

    Well, I just rebooted and it had no effect on the issue.

    (To be clear, I had rebooted multiple times throughout the
    previous year, not just the one time immediately before
    the problem.)

    I see.

    The point I was trying to make is that any given boot or reboot can result in something being 'wrong' but the 'wrongness' isn't 'real' or ongoing, but spurious.

    In any case, you've clarified that the condition isn't just due to a spurious re/boot.

    Further troubleshooting is necessary.

    Better than syslog, I just captured some of the copious stderr
    from discord. This looks as if it might be a clue:

    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:299): PulseAudio support is enabled.
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_mixer_manager_pulse_linux.cc:57): AudioMixerManagerLinuxPulse created
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:81): AudioDeviceLinuxPulse created
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:304): Linux PulseAudio APIs will be utilized
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:345): AttachAudioBuffer [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_buffer.cc:180): SetRecordingSampleRate(0)
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_buffer.cc:186): SetPlayoutSampleRate(0)
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_buffer.cc:200): SetRecordingChannels(0)
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_buffer.cc:206): SetPlayoutChannels(0)
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_engine.cpp:48): Creating audio engine: standard
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.155] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:365): Init
    shm_open() failed: No such file or directory
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:1625): failed to connect to PulseAudio sound server
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:144): failed to initialize PulseAudio
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:374): Audio device initialization failed.
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_coding.cpp:143): Using software Opus decoder

    I know that pulse is running because I can see it in top.

    Where do I go from here?

    --
    Michael F. Stemper
    Deuteronomy 10:18-19

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael F. Stemper@21:1/5 to Paul on Wed Jun 29 08:34:42 2022
    On 28/06/2022 08.33, Paul wrote:
    On 6/28/2022 9:24 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    On 25/06/2022 12.43, Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:

    [discord not recognizing any mics or speakers]


    I highly recommend rebooting.  There's the possibility of a 'spurious' reboot result.

    Well, I just rebooted and it had no effect on the issue.

    (To be clear, I had rebooted multiple times throughout the
    previous year, not just the one time immediately before
    the problem.)

    I see.

    The point I was trying to make is that any given boot or reboot can result in something being 'wrong' but the 'wrongness' isn't 'real' or ongoing, but spurious.

    In any case, you've clarified that the condition isn't just due to a spurious re/boot.

    Further troubleshooting is necessary.

    Better than syslog, I just captured some of the copious stderr
    from discord. This looks as if it might be a clue:

    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:1625): failed to connect to PulseAudio sound server
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:144): failed to initialize PulseAudio
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:374): Audio device initialization failed.
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_coding.cpp:143): Using software Opus decoder

    I know that pulse is running because I can see it in top.

    Where do I go from here?


    Run the non-Snap version.

    How do I do that?

    mstemper@parvicursor$ sudo apt-get install discord
    Reading package lists... Done
    Building dependency tree
    Reading state information... Done

    No apt package "discord", but there is a snap with that name.
    Try "snap install discord"

    E: Unable to locate package discord
    mstemper@parvicursor$


    --
    Michael F. Stemper
    I feel more like I do now than I did when I came in.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul@21:1/5 to Michael F. Stemper on Wed Jun 29 12:31:12 2022
    On 6/29/2022 9:34 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    On 28/06/2022 08.33, Paul wrote:
    On 6/28/2022 9:24 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    On 25/06/2022 12.43, Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:

    [discord not recognizing any mics or speakers]


    I highly recommend rebooting.  There's the possibility of a 'spurious' reboot result.

    Well, I just rebooted and it had no effect on the issue.

    (To be clear, I had rebooted multiple times throughout the
    previous year, not just the one time immediately before
    the problem.)

    I see.

    The point I was trying to make is that any given boot or reboot can result in something being 'wrong' but the 'wrongness' isn't 'real' or ongoing, but spurious.

    In any case, you've clarified that the condition isn't just due to a spurious re/boot.

    Further troubleshooting is necessary.

    Better than syslog, I just captured some of the copious stderr
    from discord. This looks as if it might be a clue:

    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:1625): failed to connect to PulseAudio sound server
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:144): failed to initialize PulseAudio
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:374): Audio device initialization failed.
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_coding.cpp:143): Using software Opus decoder

    I know that pulse is running because I can see it in top.

    Where do I go from here?


    Run the non-Snap version.

    How do I do that?

    mstemper@parvicursor$ sudo apt-get install discord
    Reading package lists... Done
    Building dependency tree
    Reading state information... Done

    No apt package "discord", but there is a snap with that name.
    Try "snap install discord"

    E: Unable to locate package discord
    mstemper@parvicursor$



    The executable is portable.

    Download the tarball. It's a tarball with (pre-built) executables in it, in this case.

    In Terminal, change directory, so that when you ls -al, you can
    see "Discord" elf executable 138,954,560 bytes in all its glory,
    then try this in Terminal at that point

    cd /home/users/mstemper/Downloads/Discord

    ls -al # We are verifying the location of our private executable
    # We are managing this, not Synaptic or Snap...
    # Note that two different vintages of Discord, fiddling the
    # same Chrome configuration files, is a bad thing. This is a
    # research topic for users of materials such as this. How are
    # config details isolated from the rest of the platform ?

    file Discord # Details which tell you it's an executable binary

    ./Discord # This will tell the shell to execute the program
    # from the current working directory.

    This is the URL of the download. It would help if this was
    the same release as the one in the Snap.

    https://dl.discordapp.net/apps/linux/0.0.18/discord-0.0.18.tar.gz

    chrome-sandbox 15,184 bytes
    chrome_100_percent.pak 141,930 bytes
    chrome_200_percent.pak 208,519 bytes
    Discord 138,954,560 bytes <=== smells like chrome ?

    Commands and executables are case-sensitive, so you should match the
    name of the 138,954,560 byte item, when attempting to execute it
    from the current working directory. Normally, you would not make the
    first character of the executable an UpperCase letter.

    Paul

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael F. Stemper@21:1/5 to Paul on Wed Jun 29 15:29:31 2022
    On 29/06/2022 11.31, Paul wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:34 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    On 28/06/2022 08.33, Paul wrote:
    On 6/28/2022 9:24 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    On 25/06/2022 12.43, Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    Mike Easter wrote:
    Michael F. Stemper wrote:

    [discord not recognizing any mics or speakers]


    I highly recommend rebooting.  There's the possibility of a 'spurious' reboot result.

    Well, I just rebooted and it had no effect on the issue.

    (To be clear, I had rebooted multiple times throughout the
    previous year, not just the one time immediately before
    the problem.)

    I see.

    The point I was trying to make is that any given boot or reboot can result in something being 'wrong' but the 'wrongness' isn't 'real' or ongoing, but spurious.

    In any case, you've clarified that the condition isn't just due to a spurious re/boot.

    Further troubleshooting is necessary.

    Better than syslog, I just captured some of the copious stderr
    from discord. This looks as if it might be a clue:

    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:1625): failed to connect to PulseAudio sound server
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_pulse_linux.cc:144): failed to initialize PulseAudio
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_device_impl.cc:374): Audio device initialization failed.
    [2022-06-28 08:19:13.162] [9647] (audio_coding.cpp:143): Using software Opus decoder

    I know that pulse is running because I can see it in top.

    Where do I go from here?


    Run the non-Snap version.

    How do I do that?

    This is the URL of the download. It would help if this was
    the same release as the one in the Snap.

    https://dl.discordapp.net/apps/linux/0.0.18/discord-0.0.18.tar.gz

    That did it. Why they would have two different versions is
    beyond me.

    Thanks for your help.

    --
    Michael F. Stemper
    Psalm 82:3-4

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)