XPost: alt.english.usage

Cross-posting to alt.english.usage .

Tim Rentsch to Anton Shepelev:

I think it is a modern English idiom, which I dislike as
well. StackOverflow is full of questions starting like:
"How do you do this?" and "How do I do that?" They are
informal ways of the more literary "How does one do
this?" or "What is the way to do that?"

I have a different take here. First the "your" of "your
strategy" reads as a definite pronoun, meaning it refers
specifically to Ben and not to some unknown other party.

And I am /sure/ it is intended in the general (indefinite)
sense, as is the `you' in Malcolm's two following sentences:

You allocate a small amount for the first few bytes. Then
you use exponential growth, with a factor of ether 2 or
1.5.

This is the typical wording of impersonal instruction in
modern English.

(And incidentally is subtly insulting because of that,
whether it was meant that way or not.)

Yes! My first impulse is always to interpret those pronouns
according to their literal (definite) meanings, which gives
the text an insulting (because presumptuos) taint. This is
why I wince at the indefinite useage of first- and second-
person pronouns.

Second the use of "you" to mean an unspecified other
person is not idiom but standard usage.

`Idiomatic' can mean `standard':

Of or pertaining to, or conforming to, the mode of
expression peculiar to a language; as, an idiomatic
meaning; an idiomatic phrase.

The word "you" is both a definite pronoun and an
indefinite pronoun, depending on context.

It /is/ used as in indefinite pronoun, is not widely
recognised as capable of that function:

https://eslgrammar.org/indefinite-pronouns/
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/indefinite-pronouns

And when it is, only as an informal relaxation:

https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/pronouns-indefinite.php

These recent informal usages can be ugly.

The word "they" also has this property.

I know it, and agree:

They took some honey from a tree,
Dressed it up and then called it me.
<https://on.soundcloud.com/NGz7nZgzm4hiQQbd6>

The indefinite `they' can be used formally as well.

The word "you" is similar: it can mean specifically the
listener, or it can mean generically anyone in a broader
audience, even those who never hear or read the statement
with "you" in it.

Modern teenagers definitely see it that way, and I have to
clench my teech and adapt.

The word "one" used as a pronoun is more formal, and to me
at least often sounds stilted. In US English "one" is
most often an indefinite pronoun, either second person or
third person.

How can it be a second-person pronoun? The famous phrase
"One never knows, do one?" features a third-person `one'
with a dialectical third-person `do'.

But "one" can also be used as a first person definite
pronoun (referring to the speaker), which an online
reference tells me is chiefly British English.

I had no idea it could, nor does Wikipedia. Can you share
an example of a definite first-person `one'?

Finally I would normally read "I" as a first person
definite pronoun, and not an indefinite pronoun.

And so would I, and I hate the indefinte usage.

So I don't have any problem with someone saying "how
should I ..." when asking for advice. They aren't asking
how someone else should ... but how they should ..., and
what advice I might give could very well depend on who is
doing the asking.

The problem is, in 99% of cases no personal information is
given that could possibly justify the personal wording of
the question.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.english.usage

On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 02:51:56 +0300, Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc>
wrote in <20240620025156.2ae9300726603b4cb3631547@gmail.moc>:

Cross-posting to alt.english.usage .

I've set the followup-to: same

Tim Rentsch to Anton Shepelev:

But "one" can also be used as a first person definite pronoun
(referring to the speaker), which an online reference tells me is
chiefly British English.

I had no idea it could, nor does Wikipedia. Can you share an example of
a definite first-person `one'?

I think that would go something like:

"One wonders how..."

(Also, in some writing, "this one" can replace "I" -- this one used to do
that on Usenet, but was told it was pretentious.)

--
-v

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.english.usage

I think it is a modern English idiom, which I dislike as
well. StackOverflow is full of questions starting like:
"How do you do this?" and "How do I do that?" They are
informal ways of the more literary "How does one do
this?" or "What is the way to do that?"

I have a different take here. First the "your" of "your
strategy" reads as a definite pronoun, meaning it refers
specifically to Ben and not to some unknown other party.

And I am /sure/ it is intended in the general (indefinite)
sense, as is the `you' in Malcolm's two following sentences:

This sub-thread is certainly interesting, but it ultimately smacks of
people looking for ways to feel insulted. Victimhood complex, and all that.

But, it makes me think that the problem is the basic paradigm of newsgroup (i.e., online forum) communication being thought of as personalized. I.e.,
as in direct person-to-person communication - as if it was being spoken in
a real room with real people (face-to-face). The fact is, it is not. It
would be better if we didn't think of it that way. Rather, it should be thought of as communication between the speaker and an anonymous void.
I.e., I'm not talking to you - I am talking to the anonymous void.
Everybody is.

Sort of like in the (US) House of Representatives - members are not ever supposed to be talking to each other. Rather, they are always speaking to
the void.

Like I am doing now.

This is also why it is good (And, yes, I know this goes against the CW) to
drop attributions, as I have done here. Keep it anonymous.

--

First of all, I do not appreciate your playing stupid here at all.

- Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn -

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.english.usage

On 20.06.2024 14:10, Kenny McCormack wrote:

This sub-thread is certainly interesting, but it ultimately smacks of
people looking for ways to feel insulted. Victimhood complex, and all that.

But, it makes me think that the problem is the basic paradigm of newsgroup (i.e., online forum) communication being thought of as personalized. I.e., as in direct person-to-person communication - as if it was being spoken in
a real room with real people (face-to-face). The fact is, it is not. It would be better if we didn't think of it that way. Rather, it should be thought of as communication between the speaker and an anonymous void.
I.e., I'm not talking to you - I am talking to the anonymous void.
Everybody is.

Sort of like in the (US) House of Representatives - members are not ever supposed to be talking to each other. Rather, they are always speaking to the void.

Like I am doing now.

This is also why it is good (And, yes, I know this goes against the CW) to drop attributions, as I have done here. Keep it anonymous.

Part 1

This is hard to achieve given that the technical NG infrastructure and functions "logically" connect the articles; it's only a little burden
to identify (if not already obvious) the addressee.

I think it would be better to try to stay on the issue as opposed to
reply (as so often done) ad hominem (where arguments don't seem to
exist or don't help anymore). This is of course yet more difficult to
achieve and will in practice [also] not work in Usenet (I'm sure).

Language can be used or interpreted in personal or impersonal forms.
Some communication forms - and more so their semantical contents! -
are (beyond the "you" vs. "one" dichotomy) inherently [set up to be]
personal.

-- Anonymous
:-)

Part 2

That all said. I think it's important to know who said/posted what.
It allows to associate personal context/background information when
replying. You can also be more assured about the quality of contents
(to the good or bad) or even ignore certain posts. It saves time and
protects ones health and mental sanity.[*]

There's of course also post (or threads) that just exchange opinions,
and "we" know everyone [typically] has an opinion (and often even in
cases where they are put up against facts). Some folks are known to
post a lot, respond to every thread that appears, contributing facts (sometimes) but also opinions (or personal offenses); this may be a
nuisance (or just ignored, unless "anonymously" posted).

So far my opinion on this non-technical meta-topic subthread.

Janis
(Darn, I disclosed my identity!)

[*] Wasn't that the inherent problem of all those "social media"
platforms? - Where anonymous posts - and some say that anonymity
does negatively contribute to the language and contents of such
disturbing posts - lead to barbarian communication conditions.
(I know that only from hearsay but it seems common perception.)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.english.usage

On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 02:51:56 +0300, Anton Shepelev wrote:

But "one" can also be used as a first person definite pronoun
(referring to the speaker), which an online reference tells me is
chiefly British English.

We have the same construct in Swedish: 'en', as in "en kanske skulle kunna
ta en banan", meaning "one could perhaps have a banana." Referring to
oneself from an outside perspective, in, for instance, a situation where
there used to be several items on offer to guests, but now there are only bananas and some dry sponge cake left. IOW, of two lesser desirable items,
one could accept a banana.

--
Cri-Cri

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> writes:

Cross-posting to alt.english.usage .

Tim Rentsch to Anton Shepelev:

I think it is a modern English idiom, which I dislike as
well. StackOverflow is full of questions starting like:
"How do you do this?" and "How do I do that?" They are
informal ways of the more literary "How does one do
this?" or "What is the way to do that?"

I have a different take here. First the "your" of "your
strategy" reads as a definite pronoun, meaning it refers
specifically to Ben and not to some unknown other party.

And I am /sure/ it is intended in the general (indefinite)
sense,

I don't know why you think that. I don't know any native
English speakers who would read it as other than referring
to the person being responded to (who was Ben in this case).
Responding to Malcolm's statement, Ben said "It's odd to
call it mine", so it seems Ben also read it as a definite
pronoun, referring to himself.

As for the rest of your comments, you're reaching bad
conclusions because you're not looking in the right places.
To investigate the meaning and usage of words and phrases,
the best first place to look is always a dictionary. In
the process of writing my earlier response, I consulted
roughly half a dozen different online dictionaries, reading
definitions for 'one', 'you', 'they', 'indefinite pronoun',
'definite pronoun', and probably some other terms. I also
looked at non-dictionary sources if they looked relevant,
but my starting point was dictionaries. Oh, I also looked
up both 'idiom' and 'idiomatic' (which even though they are
related don't mean the same thing).

Incidentally, on the three pages you gave links for,
all of them had at least one example that used "you"
as an indefinite pronoun.

One point I want to clear up. A couple of times you
characterize the indefinite pronoun usage of "you"
as "modern". It is not in any sense modern. I am
a native speaker of English, speaking and reading
the language for well over 60 years. Furthermore I
was raised by a grammarian. In all of that time and
experience there was never any hint that "you" as an
indefinite pronoun was new or unusual or considered
substandard or slang or unacceptable. It is simply
standard usage, and has been for longer than my
lifetime.

But "one" can also be used as a first person definite
pronoun (referring to the speaker), which an online
reference tells me is chiefly British English.

I had no idea it could, nor does Wikipedia. Can you share
an example of a definite first-person `one'?

(A) Pick a good search engine (I use duckduckgo.com).
(B) Search for the two words one definition.
(C) Read the entries for every online dictionary that
is found, or at least the top five or six.

You should find a couple of examples. It was by going
through this process myself that I discovered "one"
is sometimes used as a first person definite pronoun.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.english.usage

On 20/06/2024 02:34, vallor wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 02:51:56 +0300, Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote in <20240620025156.2ae9300726603b4cb3631547@gmail.moc>:

Cross-posting to alt.english.usage .

I've set the followup-to: same

I've put it back to comp.lang.c. It's off-topic for that group, but
that's where people were discussing it, and it seems to be of a at least
some interest to some regulars here. (I suppose maybe those regulars
are also followers of alt.english.usage.)

Tim Rentsch to Anton Shepelev:

But "one" can also be used as a first person definite pronoun
(referring to the speaker), which an online reference tells me is
chiefly British English.

I had no idea it could, nor does Wikipedia. Can you share an example of
a definite first-person `one'?

I think that would go something like:

"One wonders how..."

It is /possible/, but archaic and very upper-class. You'd immediately
suspect the speaker is wearing a top hat.

It is much more common to say simply "I wonder how...", followed by "You
wonder how..." (with "you" being generic rather than specifically the
person listening). Such usage will be more common in some dialects than others.

(Also, in some writing, "this one" can replace "I" -- this one used to do that on Usenet, but was told it was pretentious.)

That would be even less common. The form, again archaic, would be more
usually written as "This writer used to do that..." (or "This
programmer", or however the person wanted to style himself/herself).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)