I posted this already: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/Fmr2UH5FeoE
I had a typo in the header though and said: "Bugs in SwiftForth."
Stephen Pelc's excuse for not responding is most likely that
he didn't think the thread had anything to do with VFX.
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
POSTPONE LITERAL works, but calling LIT, does not work.
NN pointed out that this bug can be worked-around by putting an
ALIGN in front of the POSTPONE LITERAL in the LIT, definition.
The ALIGN is not needed in front of a POSTPONE LITERAL that is
in the hand-written macro itself.
I think that Stephen Pelc purposely introduced this bug into VFX
to break my novice-package. I'm the only person who uses LIT,
etc. --- everybody else just says POSTPONE LITERAL etc. when
hand-writing macros.
I don't actually need to hand-write macros anymore because I now
have an early-binding MACRO: definer that (unlike Anton Ertl's macro) supports literal numbers as well as immediate words such as
[CHAR] C" S" POSTPONE etc. that remove data from the input stream.
I think Stephen Pelc introduced this bug into VFX to break my
novice-package, because he knew that I would be blamed when the novice-package fails. Even if he fixes this bug in VFX, he will then just introduce another more subtle bug into VFX to break something
else in the novice-package. I might not notice this sabotage without
doing a complete test of the entire novice-package every time that
a new VFX version is released. He has to be careful though, because
he might accidentally break somebody else's legacy VFX code and
that person will blame him because the legacy program never changed
and suddenly it stops working when recompiled with the new VFX version.
So, if your legacy VFX programs fail under the new VFX version,
you are most likely collateral damage in Stephen Pelc's effort to
prove that I'm an incompetent Forth programmer. Be careful to stay
on Stephen Pelc's good side, or he will purposely break your legacy
programs and not tell you how to work around the VFX bug.
On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 03:34:13 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
I posted this already: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/Fmr2UH5FeoE
I had a typo in the header though and said: "Bugs in SwiftForth."
Stephen Pelc's excuse for not responding is most likely that
he didn't think the thread had anything to do with VFX.
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
POSTPONE LITERAL works, but calling LIT, does not work.
NN pointed out that this bug can be worked-around by putting an
ALIGN in front of the POSTPONE LITERAL in the LIT, definition.
The ALIGN is not needed in front of a POSTPONE LITERAL that is
in the hand-written macro itself.
I think that Stephen Pelc purposely introduced this bug into VFX
to break my novice-package. I'm the only person who uses LIT,
etc. --- everybody else just says POSTPONE LITERAL etc. when
hand-writing macros.
I don't actually need to hand-write macros anymore because I now
have an early-binding MACRO: definer that (unlike Anton Ertl's macro) supports literal numbers as well as immediate words such as
[CHAR] C" S" POSTPONE etc. that remove data from the input stream.
I think Stephen Pelc introduced this bug into VFX to break my novice-package, because he knew that I would be blamed when the novice-package fails. Even if he fixes this bug in VFX, he will then just introduce another more subtle bug into VFX to break something
else in the novice-package. I might not notice this sabotage without
doing a complete test of the entire novice-package every time that
a new VFX version is released. He has to be careful though, because
he might accidentally break somebody else's legacy VFX code and
that person will blame him because the legacy program never changed
and suddenly it stops working when recompiled with the new VFX version.
So, if your legacy VFX programs fail under the new VFX version,It might be a valid question to find out who uses this
you are most likely collateral damage in Stephen Pelc's effort to
prove that I'm an incompetent Forth programmer. Be careful to stay
on Stephen Pelc's good side, or he will purposely break your legacy programs and not tell you how to work around the VFX bug.
novice-package
I wonder.
ALL NOVICE PACKAGE USERS please comment.
Can I suggest the following change :
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
align postpone literal ;
Does this fix the problem Hugh ?
On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 03:34:13 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:I had borrowed some codes ( include the Lit, :-) from Hugh's novice package to create a sturct data type in SwiftForth to interface the C library many years ago. I'm still using it today.
I posted this already: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/Fmr2UH5FeoE
I had a typo in the header though and said: "Bugs in SwiftForth."
Stephen Pelc's excuse for not responding is most likely that
he didn't think the thread had anything to do with VFX.
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
POSTPONE LITERAL works, but calling LIT, does not work.
NN pointed out that this bug can be worked-around by putting an
ALIGN in front of the POSTPONE LITERAL in the LIT, definition.
The ALIGN is not needed in front of a POSTPONE LITERAL that is
in the hand-written macro itself.
I think that Stephen Pelc purposely introduced this bug into VFX
to break my novice-package. I'm the only person who uses LIT,
etc. --- everybody else just says POSTPONE LITERAL etc. when
hand-writing macros.
I don't actually need to hand-write macros anymore because I now
have an early-binding MACRO: definer that (unlike Anton Ertl's macro) supports literal numbers as well as immediate words such as
[CHAR] C" S" POSTPONE etc. that remove data from the input stream.
I think Stephen Pelc introduced this bug into VFX to break my novice-package, because he knew that I would be blamed when the novice-package fails. Even if he fixes this bug in VFX, he will then just introduce another more subtle bug into VFX to break something
else in the novice-package. I might not notice this sabotage without
doing a complete test of the entire novice-package every time that
a new VFX version is released. He has to be careful though, because
he might accidentally break somebody else's legacy VFX code and
that person will blame him because the legacy program never changed
and suddenly it stops working when recompiled with the new VFX version.
So, if your legacy VFX programs fail under the new VFX version,It might be a valid question to find out who uses this
you are most likely collateral damage in Stephen Pelc's effort to
prove that I'm an incompetent Forth programmer. Be careful to stay
on Stephen Pelc's good side, or he will purposely break your legacy programs and not tell you how to work around the VFX bug.
novice-package
I wonder.
ALL NOVICE PACKAGE USERS please comment.
jpit...@gmail.com 在 2023年1月19日 星期四下午2:51:57 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道：to create a sturct data type in SwiftForth
On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 03:34:13 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
I posted this already: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/Fmr2UH5FeoE
I had a typo in the header though and said: "Bugs in SwiftForth." Stephen Pelc's excuse for not responding is most likely that
he didn't think the thread had anything to do with VFX.
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
POSTPONE LITERAL works, but calling LIT, does not work.
NN pointed out that this bug can be worked-around by putting an
ALIGN in front of the POSTPONE LITERAL in the LIT, definition.
The ALIGN is not needed in front of a POSTPONE LITERAL that is
in the hand-written macro itself.
I think that Stephen Pelc purposely introduced this bug into VFX
to break my novice-package. I'm the only person who uses LIT,
etc. --- everybody else just says POSTPONE LITERAL etc. when hand-writing macros.
I don't actually need to hand-write macros anymore because I now
have an early-binding MACRO: definer that (unlike Anton Ertl's macro) supports literal numbers as well as immediate words such as
[CHAR] C" S" POSTPONE etc. that remove data from the input stream.
I think Stephen Pelc introduced this bug into VFX to break my novice-package, because he knew that I would be blamed when the novice-package fails. Even if he fixes this bug in VFX, he will then just
introduce another more subtle bug into VFX to break something
else in the novice-package. I might not notice this sabotage without doing a complete test of the entire novice-package every time that
a new VFX version is released. He has to be careful though, because
he might accidentally break somebody else's legacy VFX code and
that person will blame him because the legacy program never changed
and suddenly it stops working when recompiled with the new VFX version.
So, if your legacy VFX programs fail under the new VFX version,It might be a valid question to find out who uses this
you are most likely collateral damage in Stephen Pelc's effort to
prove that I'm an incompetent Forth programmer. Be careful to stay
on Stephen Pelc's good side, or he will purposely break your legacy programs and not tell you how to work around the VFX bug.
novice-package
I wonder.
ALL NOVICE PACKAGE USERS please comment.
I had borrowed some codes ( include the Lit, :-) from Hugh's novice package
On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 07:32:46 UTC, Jach Feng wrote:
I had borrowed some codes ( include the Lit, :-) from Hugh's novice packageto create a sturct data type in SwiftForth
to interface the C library many years ago.
I'm still using it today.
So, are your products/ designs / projects now stopped
as MPE has brought out an improved version of VFX.
I assume you could use the old VFX version anyway?
And as you state you use it with Swiftforth it does not matter anyway.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2023 20:21:21 -0800 (PST)
Hugh Aguilar <hughag...@gmail.com> wrote:
I still think that Stephen Pelc introduced the bug for the purpose of breaking my novice package. Stephen Pelc hates me because I wrote[]
And it took that long.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 10:42:00 AM UTC-7, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 07:32:46 UTC, Jach Feng wrote:
I had borrowed some codes ( include the Lit, :-) from Hugh's novice packageto create a sturct data type in SwiftForth
to interface the C library many years ago.
I'm still using it today.
So, are your products/ designs / projects now stopped
as MPE has brought out an improved version of VFX.
I assume you could use the old VFX version anyway?
And as you state you use it with Swiftforth it does not matter anyway.Any use of VFX is stopped now because Stephen Pelc can't be trusted to maintain
ANS-Forth compatibility. He purposely introduces a bug in LIT, to break my novice package, but he risks breaking other people's ANS-Forth code too.
As I said above, Stephen Pelc has been caught introducing this LIT, bug, so he may fix it,
but then introduce a more subtle bug to break my novice package that I wouldn't
catch immediately --- of course, the risk for him is that he breaks somebody else's code too.
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 2:58:53 AM UTC-7, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jan 2023 20:21:21 -0800 (PST)
Hugh Aguilar <hughag...@gmail.com> wrote:
I still think that Stephen Pelc introduced the bug for the purpose of breaking my novice package. Stephen Pelc hates me because I wrote[]
And it took that long.
I wrote an MSP-430 assembler. It is documented here: https://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=21841
Most likely, Stephen Pelc became aware of this, and he felt that I was intruding
upon his claimed territory (he sells an MSP-430 development system),
so that is why he introduced the LIT, bug to break my novice-package and stop me from continuing with MSP-430 work --- he wants any user of my MSP-430 assembler to find that it crashes, and of course to blame me for this on the assumption that I don't test my software before distributing it.
I don't necessarily download the latest and greatest version of VFX immediately
upon the its release. I'm not even aware of a new version being released because
I just continue using the version that I've got --- so I don't know that Stephen Pelc
has pulled the rug out from under my feet with his new version --- users of my
novice package may have the new version and not know that there is a new bug that wasn't in the old version and which I wasn't aware of.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Kerr-Mudd, John --- your tagline effectively declares you to be a troll.
You never make any contribution to comp.lang.forth except to scoff at
other people's contributions, denouncing them as humbugs.
P.S. to Jach Feng --- if you want a new version of the novice package with the LIT,
bug fixed (using NN's suggested fix), drop me a line and I will send it to you.
Also, if you are doing anything with the MSP-430 I can send you my assembler too.
I'm also in the process of writing an STM8 assembler, but it is not finished.
Any use of VFX is stopped now because Stephen Pelc can't be trusted to maintainOk - THINK! Because he can introduce bugs in other peoples code too, do you think this
ANS-Forth compatibility. He purposely introduces a bug in LIT, to break my novice package, but he risks breaking other people's ANS-Forth code too.
Could you please stop attacking commercial Forth companies.
People are just laughing about your troll behaviour.
And as you can see, nobody else is interested anyway.
If there is an issue, people will probably discuss it with MPE directly,
as they can then get into details to find a solution quickly.
On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 06:51:57 UTC, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 03:34:13 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
POSTPONE LITERAL works, but calling LIT, does not work.
NN pointed out that this bug can be worked-around by putting an
ALIGN in front of the POSTPONE LITERAL in the LIT, definition.
The ALIGN is not needed in front of a POSTPONE LITERAL that is
in the hand-written macro itself.
and according to the other thread mentioned,
we might be talking about a non-problem anyway:
Can I suggest the following change :
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
align postpone literal ;
Does this fix the problem Hugh ?
That seems to fix the problem.
And as you can see, nobody else is interested anyway.
If there is an issue, people will probably discuss it with MPE directly,
as they can then get into details to find a solution quickly.
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 12:20:09 AM UTC-7, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:I cannot be sure what exactly caused the bug in VFX. But given all possibilities, it seems
On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 06:51:57 UTC, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 03:34:13 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:and according to the other thread mentioned,
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
POSTPONE LITERAL works, but calling LIT, does not work.
NN pointed out that this bug can be worked-around by putting an
ALIGN in front of the POSTPONE LITERAL in the LIT, definition.
The ALIGN is not needed in front of a POSTPONE LITERAL that is
in the hand-written macro itself.
we might be talking about a non-problem anyway:
Can I suggest the following change :
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
align postpone literal ;
Does this fix the problem Hugh ?
That seems to fix the problem.I said that this *seems* to fix the problem.
It doesn't actually fix the problem in every case.
There are other circumstances in which the ALIGN doesn't help
and VFX still crashes. I have a lot words that use POSTPONE LITERAL internally. I have tried hunting them all down and "fixing" them with
an ALIGN but some of them still cause VFX to crash.
On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 12:49:00 AM UTC-7, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
And as you can see, nobody else is interested anyway.So what is the solution???
If there is an issue, people will probably discuss it with MPE directly,
as they can then get into details to find a solution quickly.
You found the solution "quickly," so don't keep it to yourself. Tell us! Inquiring minds want to know!
The problem with trying to fix bugs in VFX with hacky "fixes" such as
putting ALIGN in front of the POSTPONE LITERAL is that there is no explanation for why this works, or any guarantee that this will always work. I would need to have the source-code for VFX to figure out why VFX has
this bug and what can be done to fix the bug (not just put a band-aid on
the problem with ALIGN and not have any explanation for why this works sometimes but not every time). I would also need to have a lot more than
24 hours in each day --- or I would need to get paid by Stephen Pelc to debug VFX for him --- as it currently stands, I have neither the time to debug VFX nor adequate information about how VFX works internally.
If Stephen Pelc put this bug into VFX purposely, in order to defeat me,
he has succeeded! I don't know how to fix the bug. Stephen Pelc is the winner!
Hans Bezemer says that Stephen Pelc did not introduce this bug purposefully. This implies that Stephen Pelc is just plain incompetent. VFX worked in the past,
and now it doesn't work. Incompetance is a realistic explanation.
Thanks for pointing that out, Hans! I would never have guessed such an explanation.
Stephen Pelc is getting old. Senility and/or alcoholism are problems at his age.
Also, the only "programmer" that he employs is Peter Knaggs who is so incompetent
that he failed to implement a linked list: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/cMa8wV3OiY0/m/INBDVBh0BgAJ
I don't think that Peter Knaggs is a programmer at all. A linked list should be easy!
I think that Stephen Pelc's multi-billion-dollar multi-national actually consists only
of Stephen Pelc and his dog Barto, and neither of them are any good at programming.
But why does a clever boy like you depends on somebody elses compiler? That's what
I can't figure out. Almost everybody down here uses his own. The one they built and
raised and eventually fell in love with.
On 4/02/2023 10:51 am, Hans Bezemer wrote:
But why does a clever boy like you depends on somebody elses compiler? That's whatMaintaining the narrative of the victim is what's important.
I can't figure out. Almost everybody down here uses his own. The one they built and
raised and eventually fell in love with.
On 12/01/2023 10:35 pm, albert wrote:
However if you do bother about ANS/ISO , then you can reap great benefit from the efforts within MPE to deliver a compiler that be standard.The Standard and what it permits is too complicated for the average user
Even if you are not a paying customer.
to understand. Implementers too, it would seem. ANS dug a hole so deep
it challenges everyone.
On Saturday, 4 February 2023 at 17:48:28 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 6:05:48 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 4/02/2023 10:51 am, Hans Bezemer wrote:
So far, Stephen Pelc's support has been primarily from Hans Bezemer, DXforthBut why does a clever boy like you depends on somebody elses compiler? That's whatMaintaining the narrative of the victim is what's important.
I can't figure out. Almost everybody down here uses his own. The one they built and
raised and eventually fell in love with.
and Juergen Pintaske.
Hans Bezemer enjoys flinging insults at me. First he calls me a "chirping bird,"
and now he calls me a "clever boy."
Hans' 4th that he fell in love with is a toy byte-code interpreter written in C.
He doesn't know what Harvard Architecture is. He doesn't know what copy-on-write
is. He doesn't really know anything about programming. He makes educational videos.
DXforth said this earlier:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 5:44:22 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 12/01/2023 10:35 pm, albert wrote:
However if you do bother about ANS/ISO , then you can reap great benefitThe Standard and what it permits is too complicated for the average user to understand. Implementers too, it would seem. ANS dug a hole so deep it challenges everyone.
from the efforts within MPE to deliver a compiler that be standard. Even if you are not a paying customer.
This is just DXforth's endless stream of drivel about how much he hates the
idea of a Forth standard, and how this puts his awesome creativity in a box.
So far, his awesome creativity has been to write a Z80 Forth (almost certainly
he used the source-code from Loelliger's book for this). His greatest achievment
is the END macro that he has been bragging about for decades:
: END POSTPONE THEN POSTPONE EXIT ; IMMEDIATE
He tried for a long time to say that I support him in his hatred for the idea of a Forth
standard, but he eventually stopped because of the obvious problem that I am a strong
proponent of having a Forth standard --- the Forth community should start any time!
He gets a thrill out of mocking me by using the term "disambiguifier" for various
kindergarten-level Forth that he has written that has nothing to do with disambiguifiers.
He really doesn't know anything about the subject.
Juergen Pintaske, of course, endlessly spams this forum with advertisements
for books that were written in the 1980s that he now (4 decades later) claims
that he is the coauthor of. He also has his "A Start with Forth" book that is just
an over-grown sales pamphlet for VFX. He knows nothing about Forth programming!
Stephen Pelc's support base is composed entirely of pompous fake-experts. The bottom line is that VFX is failing to compile ANS-Forth compliant code that
it used to compile correctly (SwiftForth still does compile this correctly).
I'm not a major "victim" here because I can dump VFX and use a different compiler.
The major victims are the MPE customers who have a large investment in VFX and who expected VFX to continue to compile ANS-Forth code correctly.
I have always relied on VFX. The failure of VFX to compile the ANS-Forth novice-package is an impetus for me to finally just write my own Forth system.F O R T H K I L L E R H U G H A Q U I S H I T T I S B A C K
I'm also looking into Ilya Tarasov's Ibris Forth (I'm likely the only person here
who knows where the name "Ibris" comes from and thinks that it is a cool name).
Forth has some kind of future that Stephen Pelc and his bug-ridden VFX will not be included in. Stephen Pelc was always a negative contributor to Forth
because he purposely crippled Forth-200x in order to make VFX look good
in comparison. So, good riddeance to Stephen Pelc and his salesman Juergen Pintaske!
has escaped from his Mental Home again.
There was so much peace and quiet here
when he could not escape as of Corona.
Now he dumps his shit on CLF again.
There seems to be no work in Taxi Driving and Plumbing anymore either ...
Is there anybody here that gives a **** about the orgasms he generates while producing this shit?
At least it is visible that he is getting old.
It takes him a lot longer now.
And his brain is fortunately retiring,
as he does not remember the facts anymore.
For many years I have nothing to do with MPE / VFX anymore.
And it had been all documented here. But he is getting brain dead.
But a good point to remind me of the Forth Bookshelf I created,
and which will still be there when he is 6 foot under -
and I am quite proud of the work I did there.
Some of these books might be a bit dated,
but are there any better ones?
And they are still bought by people who are interested in Forth;
OK, there are only very few people,
as this guy tries to force them all away from here;
and number 5 - A Start with Forth -
is to my knowledge the newest Forth Documentation generated.
And I collected it and published it.
My knowledge of Forth is rather limited, just the basics;
does it matter?
But I enjoyed the bits I learnt
with the help of many here
and in the German Forth community
where such an idiot would just be excluded.
My Forth Bookshelf:
This is part of the current Forth Bookshelf and some other books and can be found at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM
Is there any interest?
Well, look at the ones that are included in the top 100 of the Compiler Books:
BESTSELLERS IN COMPILER DESIGN. https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/3970/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_5_last#5 Today only 3 of these books are there, but 3% is not bad, and it seems only one other Forth book.
Sometimes it goes up to 10% or more.
Not bad for a language like Forth.
1 Charles Moore - Forth - The Early Years: Background information about the beginnings of this Computer Language
2 Charles Moore - Programming A Problem Oriented Language: Forth - how the internals work
3 Leo Brodie - Starting Forth -The Classic
4 Leo Wong – Juergen Pintaske – Stephen Pelc FORTH LITE TUTORIAL: Code tested with free MPE VFX Forth, SwiftForth and Gforth
5 Juergen Pintaske – A START WITH FORTH - Bits to Bites Collection
– 12 Words to start, then 35 Words, Javascript Forth on the Web, more
( 6 Stephen Pelc - Programming Forth: Version July 2016 )
7 Brad Rodriguez - Moving Forth / TTL CPU / B.Y.O. Assembler
8 Tim Hentlass - Real Time Forth
9 Chen-Hanson Ting - Footsteps In An Empty Valley issue 3
10 Chen-Hanson Ting - Zen and the Forth Language: EFORTH for the
MSP430G2552 from Texas Instruments
11 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth and Zen - 3rd Edition 2017: with 32-bit 86eForth v5.2 for Visual Studio 2015
12 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth Overview
13 Chen-Hanson Ting - FIG-Forth Manual Document /Test in 1802 IP
14 Chen-Hanson Ting - EP32 RISC Processor IP: Description and
Implementation into FPGA – ASIC tested by NASA
15 Chen-Hanson Ting – Irriducible Complexity
16 Chen-Hanson Ting - Arduino controlled by eForth
17 Chen-Hanson Ting – eForth as Arduino Sketch – no Programmer needed
( 18 Burkhard Kainka - Learning Programming with MyCo: )
Learning Programming easily - independent of a PC (Forth code to follow soon)
( 19 Burkhard Kainka - BBC Micro:bit: Tests Tricks Secrets Code, Additional MicroBit )
information when running the Mecrisp Package
( 20 Burkhard Kainka – Thomas Baum – Web Programming ATYTINY13 )
21 Georg Heinrichs - The ATTINY Project – Why Forth?
22 Dr. Karl Meinzer - IPS, a Forth-like language for Space
Juergen Pintaske, publisher, July 2020
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 6:05:48 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 4/02/2023 10:51 am, Hans Bezemer wrote:
So far, Stephen Pelc's support has been primarily from Hans Bezemer, DXforth and Juergen Pintaske.But why does a clever boy like you depends on somebody elses compiler? That's whatMaintaining the narrative of the victim is what's important.
I can't figure out. Almost everybody down here uses his own. The one they built and
raised and eventually fell in love with.
Hans Bezemer enjoys flinging insults at me. First he calls me a "chirping bird,"
and now he calls me a "clever boy."
Hans' 4th that he fell in love with is a toy byte-code interpreter written in C.
He doesn't know what Harvard Architecture is. He doesn't know what copy-on-write
is. He doesn't really know anything about programming. He makes educational videos.
DXforth said this earlier:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 5:44:22 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 12/01/2023 10:35 pm, albert wrote:
However if you do bother about ANS/ISO , then you can reap great benefit from the efforts within MPE to deliver a compiler that be standard.The Standard and what it permits is too complicated for the average user to understand. Implementers too, it would seem. ANS dug a hole so deep
Even if you are not a paying customer.
it challenges everyone.
This is just DXforth's endless stream of drivel about how much he hates the idea of a Forth standard, and how this puts his awesome creativity in a box. So far, his awesome creativity has been to write a Z80 Forth (almost certainly
he used the source-code from Loelliger's book for this). His greatest achievment
is the END macro that he has been bragging about for decades:
: END POSTPONE THEN POSTPONE EXIT ; IMMEDIATE
He tried for a long time to say that I support him in his hatred for the idea of a Forth
standard, but he eventually stopped because of the obvious problem that I am a strong
proponent of having a Forth standard --- the Forth community should start any time!
He gets a thrill out of mocking me by using the term "disambiguifier" for various
kindergarten-level Forth that he has written that has nothing to do with disambiguifiers.
He really doesn't know anything about the subject.
Juergen Pintaske, of course, endlessly spams this forum with advertisements for books that were written in the 1980s that he now (4 decades later) claims
that he is the coauthor of. He also has his "A Start with Forth" book that is just
an over-grown sales pamphlet for VFX. He knows nothing about Forth programming!
Stephen Pelc's support base is composed entirely of pompous fake-experts. The bottom line is that VFX is failing to compile ANS-Forth compliant code that
it used to compile correctly (SwiftForth still does compile this correctly). I'm not a major "victim" here because I can dump VFX and use a different compiler.
The major victims are the MPE customers who have a large investment in VFX and who expected VFX to continue to compile ANS-Forth code correctly.
I have always relied on VFX. The failure of VFX to compile the ANS-Forth novice-package is an impetus for me to finally just write my own Forth system.
I'm also looking into Ilya Tarasov's Ibris Forth (I'm likely the only person here
who knows where the name "Ibris" comes from and thinks that it is a cool name).
Forth has some kind of future that Stephen Pelc and his bug-ridden VFX
will not be included in. Stephen Pelc was always a negative contributor to Forth
because he purposely crippled Forth-200x in order to make VFX look good
in comparison. So, good riddeance to Stephen Pelc and his salesman Juergen Pintaske!
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 6:05:48 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:Double standards here. If I call Hugh 'a clever boy' he takes it for an insult, but if I call
On 4/02/2023 10:51 am, Hans Bezemer wrote:
So far, Stephen Pelc's support has been primarily from Hans Bezemer, DXforth and Juergen Pintaske.But why does a clever boy like you depends on somebody elses compiler? That's whatMaintaining the narrative of the victim is what's important.
I can't figure out. Almost everybody down here uses his own. The one they built and
raised and eventually fell in love with.
Hans Bezemer enjoys flinging insults at me. First he calls me a "chirping bird,"
and now he calls me a "clever boy."
Hans' 4th that he fell in love with is a toy byte-code interpreter written in C.
He doesn't know what Harvard Architecture is. He doesn't know what copy-on-write
is. He doesn't really know anything about programming. He makes educational videos.
DXforth said this earlier:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 5:44:22 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 12/01/2023 10:35 pm, albert wrote:
However if you do bother about ANS/ISO , then you can reap great benefit from the efforts within MPE to deliver a compiler that be standard.The Standard and what it permits is too complicated for the average user
Even if you are not a paying customer.
to understand. Implementers too, it would seem. ANS dug a hole so deep
it challenges everyone.
This is just DXforth's endless stream of drivel about how much he hates the idea of a Forth standard, and how this puts his awesome creativity in a box. So far, his awesome creativity has been to write a Z80 Forth (almost certainly
he used the source-code from Loelliger's book for this). His greatest achievment
is the END macro that he has been bragging about for decades:
: END POSTPONE THEN POSTPONE EXIT ; IMMEDIATE
He tried for a long time to say that I support him in his hatred for the idea of a Forth
standard, but he eventually stopped because of the obvious problem that I am a strong
proponent of having a Forth standard --- the Forth community should start any time!
He gets a thrill out of mocking me by using the term "disambiguifier" for various
kindergarten-level Forth that he has written that has nothing to do with disambiguifiers.
He really doesn't know anything about the subject.
Juergen Pintaske, of course, endlessly spams this forum with advertisements for books that were written in the 1980s that he now (4 decades later) claims that he is the coauthor of. He also has his "A Start with Forth" book that is just
an over-grown sales pamphlet for VFX. He knows nothing about Forth programming!
Stephen Pelc's support base is composed entirely of pompous fake-experts.
The bottom line is that VFX is failing to compile ANS-Forth compliant code that
it used to compile correctly (SwiftForth still does compile this correctly). I'm not a major "victim" here because I can dump VFX and use a different compiler.
The major victims are the MPE customers who have a large investment in VFX and who expected VFX to continue to compile ANS-Forth code correctly.
I have always relied on VFX. The failure of VFX to compile the ANS-Forth novice-package is an impetus for me to finally just write my own Forth system.
I'm also looking into Ilya Tarasov's Ibris Forth (I'm likely the only person here
who knows where the name "Ibris" comes from and thinks that it is a cool name).
Forth has some kind of future that Stephen Pelc and his bug-ridden VFX
will not be included in. Stephen Pelc was always a negative contributor to Forth
because he purposely crippled Forth-200x in order to make VFX look good
in comparison. So, good riddeance to Stephen Pelc and his salesman Juergen Pintaske!
I'm also looking into Ilya Tarasov's Ibris Forth (I'm likely the only
person here
who knows where the name "Ibris" comes from and thinks that it is a cool name).
Forth has some kind of future that Stephen Pelc and his bug-ridden VFX
will not be included in. Stephen Pelc was always a negative contributor to Forth
because he purposely crippled Forth-200x in order to make VFX look good
in comparison. So, good riddeance to Stephen Pelc and his salesman
Juergen Pintaske!
DXforth said this earlier:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 5:44:22 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 12/01/2023 10:35 pm, albert wrote:
However if you do bother about ANS/ISO , then you can reap great benefit >>> from the efforts within MPE to deliver a compiler that be standard.The Standard and what it permits is too complicated for the average user
Even if you are not a paying customer.
to understand. Implementers too, it would seem. ANS dug a hole so deep
it challenges everyone.
This is just DXforth's endless stream of drivel about how much he hates the idea of a Forth standard, and how this puts his awesome creativity in a box.
On Saturday, 4 February 2023 at 17:48:28 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 6:05:48 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 4/02/2023 10:51 am, Hans Bezemer wrote:
So far, Stephen Pelc's support has been primarily from Hans Bezemer, DXforthBut why does a clever boy like you depends on somebody elses compiler? That's whatMaintaining the narrative of the victim is what's important.
I can't figure out. Almost everybody down here uses his own. The one they built and
raised and eventually fell in love with.
and Juergen Pintaske.
Hans Bezemer enjoys flinging insults at me. First he calls me a "chirping bird,"
and now he calls me a "clever boy."
Hans' 4th that he fell in love with is a toy byte-code interpreter written in C.
He doesn't know what Harvard Architecture is. He doesn't know what copy-on-write
is. He doesn't really know anything about programming. He makes educational videos.
DXforth said this earlier:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 5:44:22 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 12/01/2023 10:35 pm, albert wrote:
However if you do bother about ANS/ISO , then you can reap great benefitThe Standard and what it permits is too complicated for the average user to understand. Implementers too, it would seem. ANS dug a hole so deep it challenges everyone.
from the efforts within MPE to deliver a compiler that be standard. Even if you are not a paying customer.
This is just DXforth's endless stream of drivel about how much he hates the
idea of a Forth standard, and how this puts his awesome creativity in a box.
So far, his awesome creativity has been to write a Z80 Forth (almost certainly
he used the source-code from Loelliger's book for this). His greatest achievment
is the END macro that he has been bragging about for decades:
: END POSTPONE THEN POSTPONE EXIT ; IMMEDIATE
He tried for a long time to say that I support him in his hatred for the idea of a Forth
standard, but he eventually stopped because of the obvious problem that I am a strong
proponent of having a Forth standard --- the Forth community should start any time!
He gets a thrill out of mocking me by using the term "disambiguifier" for various
kindergarten-level Forth that he has written that has nothing to do with disambiguifiers.
He really doesn't know anything about the subject.
Juergen Pintaske, of course, endlessly spams this forum with advertisements
for books that were written in the 1980s that he now (4 decades later) claims
that he is the coauthor of. He also has his "A Start with Forth" book that is just
an over-grown sales pamphlet for VFX. He knows nothing about Forth programming!
Stephen Pelc's support base is composed entirely of pompous fake-experts. The bottom line is that VFX is failing to compile ANS-Forth compliant code that
it used to compile correctly (SwiftForth still does compile this correctly).
I'm not a major "victim" here because I can dump VFX and use a different compiler.
The major victims are the MPE customers who have a large investment in VFX and who expected VFX to continue to compile ANS-Forth code correctly.
I have always relied on VFX. The failure of VFX to compile the ANS-Forth novice-package is an impetus for me to finally just write my own Forth system.F O R T H K I L L E R H U G H A Q U I S H I T T I S B A C K
I'm also looking into Ilya Tarasov's Ibris Forth (I'm likely the only person here
who knows where the name "Ibris" comes from and thinks that it is a cool name).
Forth has some kind of future that Stephen Pelc and his bug-ridden VFX will not be included in. Stephen Pelc was always a negative contributor to Forth
because he purposely crippled Forth-200x in order to make VFX look good
in comparison. So, good riddeance to Stephen Pelc and his salesman Juergen Pintaske!
has escaped from his Mental Home again.
There was so much peace and quiet here
when he could not escape as of Corona.
Now he dumps his shit on CLF again.
There seems to be no work in Taxi Driving and Plumbing anymore either ...
Is there anybody here that gives a **** about the orgasms he generates while producing this shit?
At least it is visible that he is getting old.
It takes him a lot longer now.
And his brain is fortunately retiring,
as he does not remember the facts anymore.
For many years I have nothing to do with MPE / VFX anymore.
And it had been all documented here. But he is getting brain dead.
But a good point to remind me of the Forth Bookshelf I created,
and which will still be there when he is 6 foot under -
and I am quite proud of the work I did there.
Some of these books might be a bit dated,
but are there any better ones?
And they are still bought by people who are interested in Forth;
OK, there are only very few people,
as this guy tries to force them all away from here;
and number 5 - A Start with Forth -
is to my knowledge the newest Forth Documentation generated.
And I collected it and published it.
My knowledge of Forth is rather limited, just the basics;
does it matter?
But I enjoyed the bits I learnt
with the help of many here
and in the German Forth community
where such an idiot would just be excluded.
My Forth Bookshelf:
This is part of the current Forth Bookshelf and some other books and can be found at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM
Is there any interest?
Well, look at the ones that are included in the top 100 of the Compiler Books:
BESTSELLERS IN COMPILER DESIGN. https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/3970/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_5_last#5 Today only 3 of these books are there, but 3% is not bad, and it seems only one other Forth book.
Sometimes it goes up to 10% or more.
Not bad for a language like Forth.
1 Charles Moore - Forth - The Early Years: Background information about the beginnings of this Computer Language
2 Charles Moore - Programming A Problem Oriented Language: Forth - how the internals work
3 Leo Brodie - Starting Forth -The Classic
4 Leo Wong – Juergen Pintaske – Stephen Pelc FORTH LITE TUTORIAL: Code tested with free MPE VFX Forth, SwiftForth and Gforth
5 Juergen Pintaske – A START WITH FORTH - Bits to Bites Collection
– 12 Words to start, then 35 Words, Javascript Forth on the Web, more
( 6 Stephen Pelc - Programming Forth: Version July 2016 )
7 Brad Rodriguez - Moving Forth / TTL CPU / B.Y.O. Assembler
8 Tim Hentlass - Real Time Forth
9 Chen-Hanson Ting - Footsteps In An Empty Valley issue 3
10 Chen-Hanson Ting - Zen and the Forth Language: EFORTH for the
MSP430G2552 from Texas Instruments
11 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth and Zen - 3rd Edition 2017: with 32-bit 86eForth v5.2 for Visual Studio 2015
12 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth Overview
13 Chen-Hanson Ting - FIG-Forth Manual Document /Test in 1802 IP
14 Chen-Hanson Ting - EP32 RISC Processor IP: Description and
Implementation into FPGA – ASIC tested by NASA
15 Chen-Hanson Ting – Irriducible Complexity
16 Chen-Hanson Ting - Arduino controlled by eForth
17 Chen-Hanson Ting – eForth as Arduino Sketch – no Programmer needed
( 18 Burkhard Kainka - Learning Programming with MyCo: )
Learning Programming easily - independent of a PC (Forth code to follow soon)
( 19 Burkhard Kainka - BBC Micro:bit: Tests Tricks Secrets Code, Additional MicroBit )
information when running the Mecrisp Package
( 20 Burkhard Kainka – Thomas Baum – Web Programming ATYTINY13 )
21 Georg Heinrichs - The ATTINY Project – Why Forth?
22 Dr. Karl Meinzer - IPS, a Forth-like language for Space
Juergen Pintaske, publisher, July 2020
On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 1:40:24 PM UTC-5, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:We love you too, Rick. ;-)
On Saturday, 4 February 2023 at 17:48:28 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 6:05:48 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 4/02/2023 10:51 am, Hans Bezemer wrote:
So far, Stephen Pelc's support has been primarily from Hans Bezemer, DXforthBut why does a clever boy like you depends on somebody elses compiler? That's whatMaintaining the narrative of the victim is what's important.
I can't figure out. Almost everybody down here uses his own. The one they built and
raised and eventually fell in love with.
and Juergen Pintaske.
Hans Bezemer enjoys flinging insults at me. First he calls me a "chirping bird,"
and now he calls me a "clever boy."
Hans' 4th that he fell in love with is a toy byte-code interpreter written in C.
He doesn't know what Harvard Architecture is. He doesn't know what copy-on-write
is. He doesn't really know anything about programming. He makes educational videos.
DXforth said this earlier:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 5:44:22 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 12/01/2023 10:35 pm, albert wrote:
However if you do bother about ANS/ISO , then you can reap great benefitThe Standard and what it permits is too complicated for the average user
from the efforts within MPE to deliver a compiler that be standard. Even if you are not a paying customer.
to understand. Implementers too, it would seem. ANS dug a hole so deep it challenges everyone.
This is just DXforth's endless stream of drivel about how much he hates the
idea of a Forth standard, and how this puts his awesome creativity in a box.
So far, his awesome creativity has been to write a Z80 Forth (almost certainly
he used the source-code from Loelliger's book for this). His greatest achievment
is the END macro that he has been bragging about for decades:
: END POSTPONE THEN POSTPONE EXIT ; IMMEDIATE
He tried for a long time to say that I support him in his hatred for the idea of a Forth
standard, but he eventually stopped because of the obvious problem that I am a strong
proponent of having a Forth standard --- the Forth community should start any time!
He gets a thrill out of mocking me by using the term "disambiguifier" for various
kindergarten-level Forth that he has written that has nothing to do with disambiguifiers.
He really doesn't know anything about the subject.
Juergen Pintaske, of course, endlessly spams this forum with advertisements
for books that were written in the 1980s that he now (4 decades later) claims
that he is the coauthor of. He also has his "A Start with Forth" book that is just
an over-grown sales pamphlet for VFX. He knows nothing about Forth programming!
Stephen Pelc's support base is composed entirely of pompous fake-experts.
The bottom line is that VFX is failing to compile ANS-Forth compliant code that
it used to compile correctly (SwiftForth still does compile this correctly).
I'm not a major "victim" here because I can dump VFX and use a different compiler.
The major victims are the MPE customers who have a large investment in VFX
and who expected VFX to continue to compile ANS-Forth code correctly.
I have always relied on VFX. The failure of VFX to compile the ANS-Forth novice-package is an impetus for me to finally just write my own Forth system.F O R T H K I L L E R H U G H A Q U I S H I T T I S B A C K
I'm also looking into Ilya Tarasov's Ibris Forth (I'm likely the only person here
who knows where the name "Ibris" comes from and thinks that it is a cool name).
Forth has some kind of future that Stephen Pelc and his bug-ridden VFX will not be included in. Stephen Pelc was always a negative contributor to Forth
because he purposely crippled Forth-200x in order to make VFX look good in comparison. So, good riddeance to Stephen Pelc and his salesman Juergen Pintaske!
has escaped from his Mental Home again.
There was so much peace and quiet here
when he could not escape as of Corona.
Now he dumps his shit on CLF again.
There seems to be no work in Taxi Driving and Plumbing anymore either ...
Is there anybody here that gives a **** about the orgasms he generates while producing this shit?
At least it is visible that he is getting old.
It takes him a lot longer now.
And his brain is fortunately retiring,
as he does not remember the facts anymore.
For many years I have nothing to do with MPE / VFX anymore.
And it had been all documented here. But he is getting brain dead.
But a good point to remind me of the Forth Bookshelf I created,
and which will still be there when he is 6 foot under -
and I am quite proud of the work I did there.
Some of these books might be a bit dated,
but are there any better ones?
And they are still bought by people who are interested in Forth;
OK, there are only very few people,
as this guy tries to force them all away from here;
and number 5 - A Start with Forth -
is to my knowledge the newest Forth Documentation generated.
And I collected it and published it.
My knowledge of Forth is rather limited, just the basics;
does it matter?
But I enjoyed the bits I learnt
with the help of many here
and in the German Forth community
where such an idiot would just be excluded.
My Forth Bookshelf:
This is part of the current Forth Bookshelf and some other books and can be found at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM
Is there any interest?
Well, look at the ones that are included in the top 100 of the Compiler Books:
BESTSELLERS IN COMPILER DESIGN. https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/3970/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_5_last#5
Today only 3 of these books are there, but 3% is not bad, and it seems only one other Forth book.
Sometimes it goes up to 10% or more.
Not bad for a language like Forth.
1 Charles Moore - Forth - The Early Years: Background information about the
beginnings of this Computer Language
2 Charles Moore - Programming A Problem Oriented Language: Forth - how the internals work
3 Leo Brodie - Starting Forth -The Classic
4 Leo Wong – Juergen Pintaske – Stephen Pelc FORTH LITE TUTORIAL: Code tested with free MPE VFX Forth, SwiftForth and Gforth
5 Juergen Pintaske – A START WITH FORTH - Bits to Bites Collection
– 12 Words to start, then 35 Words, Javascript Forth on the Web, more
( 6 Stephen Pelc - Programming Forth: Version July 2016 )
7 Brad Rodriguez - Moving Forth / TTL CPU / B.Y.O. Assembler
8 Tim Hentlass - Real Time Forth
9 Chen-Hanson Ting - Footsteps In An Empty Valley issue 3
10 Chen-Hanson Ting - Zen and the Forth Language: EFORTH for the MSP430G2552 from Texas Instruments
11 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth and Zen - 3rd Edition 2017: with 32-bit 86eForth v5.2 for Visual Studio 2015
12 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth Overview
13 Chen-Hanson Ting - FIG-Forth Manual Document /Test in 1802 IP
14 Chen-Hanson Ting - EP32 RISC Processor IP: Description and Implementation into FPGA – ASIC tested by NASA
15 Chen-Hanson Ting – Irriducible Complexity
16 Chen-Hanson Ting - Arduino controlled by eForth
17 Chen-Hanson Ting – eForth as Arduino Sketch – no Programmer needed
( 18 Burkhard Kainka - Learning Programming with MyCo: )Wow! I literally don't know what to say. Hugh makes a couple of posts, and all the other nut cases start their jabbering again.
Learning Programming easily - independent of a PC (Forth code to follow soon)
( 19 Burkhard Kainka - BBC Micro:bit: Tests Tricks Secrets Code, Additional MicroBit )
information when running the Mecrisp Package
( 20 Burkhard Kainka – Thomas Baum – Web Programming ATYTINY13 )
21 Georg Heinrichs - The ATTINY Project – Why Forth?
22 Dr. Karl Meinzer - IPS, a Forth-like language for Space
Juergen Pintaske, publisher, July 2020
Wow! I literally don't know what to say. Hugh makes a couple of posts, and all the other nut cases start their jabbering again.
Sometimes I have to wonder about myself. I must be crazy to be any part of this nuthouse. I think I need to learn C++.
True. I learned Forth using this combo:Sometimes I have to wonder about myself. I must be crazy to be any part of this nuthouse. I think I need to learn C++.You're saying you came to c.l.f. to learn Forth? Oy vey! How well did that work out?
On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 10:33:54 AM UTC+1, dxforth wrote:
True. I learned Forth using this combo:Sometimes I have to wonder about myself. I must be crazy to be any part of this nuthouse. I think I need to learn C++.You're saying you came to c.l.f. to learn Forth? Oy vey! How well did that >> work out?
- Lots of text books (sorry - no internet in the days);
- Lots of trial and error (I call it "being raised by the compiler");
- Wil Baden;
- Occasional perls I find either here, Rosetta code or in FD.
I still think - seriously - too little stuff is posted here. And I can understand. There is no fun
in being beaten down (without alternative) when you're posting code. I loved the "I can write
the fastest SQRT" though. We should do that more often.
Hans Bezemer
P.S. I still love the rewritten CONCAT implementation. I don't mind being beaten down when it
results in better code. Hey, you may lose a few teeth, but at least you get a free beer!
In article <c8a05d29-d76c-4d43...@googlegroups.com>,
Hugh Aguilar <hughag...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm also looking into Ilya Tarasov's Ibris Forth (I'm likely the only >person here
who knows where the name "Ibris" comes from and thinks that it is a cool name).
Forth has some kind of future that Stephen Pelc and his bug-ridden VFX
will not be included in. Stephen Pelc was always a negative contributor to Forth
because he purposely crippled Forth-200x in order to make VFX look good
in comparison. So, good riddeance to Stephen Pelc and his salesman
Juergen Pintaske!
I studied the code that the VFX compiler generates and I'm impressed.
Calling VFX "bug-ridden" makes you look like Trump.
I'm disappointed that you don't name me among the supporters of VFX.
Stephen Pelc has a valid business interest into Forth-200x and
he has contributed to the discussion. Standards are compromises and
it is no more than normal than that one of the two most important
commercial applications is taken into account.
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in the air. First gain is a cat spinning. - the Wise from Antrim -
On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 12:49:52 PM UTC-7, none albert wrote:
In article <c8a05d29-d76c-4d43...@googlegroups.com>,
Hugh Aguilar <hughag...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm also looking into Ilya Tarasov's Ibris Forth (I'm likely the only
person here
who knows where the name "Ibris" comes from and thinks that it is a cool name).
Forth has some kind of future that Stephen Pelc and his bug-ridden VFX
will not be included in. Stephen Pelc was always a negative contributor to Forth
because he purposely crippled Forth-200x in order to make VFX look good
in comparison. So, good riddeance to Stephen Pelc and his salesman
Juergen Pintaske!
I studied the code that the VFX compiler generates and I'm impressed.
Calling VFX "bug-ridden" makes you look like Trump.
My novice-package worked fine in the past, and it still works on SwiftForth. I made a lot of effort to ensure that the novice-package was fully ANS-Forth compliant. Now it crashes on VFX in multiple places. This seems to be POSTPONE LITERAL but I haven't delved into it deeply enough to be sure.
I really don't have time to debug VFX for Stephen Pelc, and I don't have the source-code to VFX anyway --- Stephen Pelc needs to debug his bug-ridden VFX. You "studied" VFX code??? Most likely you don't know what POSTPONE is.
I could just go back to the old version of VFX that still worked.
Hopefully Stephen Pelc still has this available on his MPE website.
I'm disappointed that you don't name me among the supporters of VFX.
Okay.
You can make a spectacle of yourself on your knees for Stephen Pelc.
You are henceforth considered to be fully the peer of Juergen Pintaske,
Hans Bezemer and DXforth. You've earned it! Be pround of your achievement!
Stephen Pelc has a valid business interest into Forth-200x and
he has contributed to the discussion. Standards are compromises and
it is no more than normal than that one of the two most important
commercial applications is taken into account.
It is only normal for astroturf projects (corporate marketing gimmicks promoted as being grassroots projects to lure in the foolish).
Stephen Pelc is in the business of selling VFX.
He wants Forth-200x to be crippled so he can tell his customers:
"You need to pay for VFX to get a useful Forth system. Forth-200x is
a toy language intended to teach novices the basics of Forth, so they can apply for work as VFX programmers and at least know about DUP SWAP etc..
Play with gForth for a while, then upgrade to VFX when you have the money."
Rquotations are more important to the future of Forth than the Forth-200x standard.
Stephen Pelc accepted the Paysan-faked quotations into Forth-200x. That was purposeful crippling of Forth-200x --- that is all that anybody needs to know about him.
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in >> the air. First gain is a cat spinning. - the Wise from Antrim -
This goofy pseudo-philosophic blather definitely make you a peer of DXforth. He is always spouting nonsense like this too.
On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 1:40:24 PM UTC-5, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:Don't "think", just go ahead and learn C++. It may help your winkled mind from crazy:-)
On Saturday, 4 February 2023 at 17:48:28 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 6:05:48 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 4/02/2023 10:51 am, Hans Bezemer wrote:
So far, Stephen Pelc's support has been primarily from Hans Bezemer, DXforthBut why does a clever boy like you depends on somebody elses compiler? That's whatMaintaining the narrative of the victim is what's important.
I can't figure out. Almost everybody down here uses his own. The one they built and
raised and eventually fell in love with.
and Juergen Pintaske.
Hans Bezemer enjoys flinging insults at me. First he calls me a "chirping bird,"
and now he calls me a "clever boy."
Hans' 4th that he fell in love with is a toy byte-code interpreter written in C.
He doesn't know what Harvard Architecture is. He doesn't know what copy-on-write
is. He doesn't really know anything about programming. He makes educational videos.
DXforth said this earlier:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 5:44:22 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 12/01/2023 10:35 pm, albert wrote:
However if you do bother about ANS/ISO , then you can reap great benefitThe Standard and what it permits is too complicated for the average user
from the efforts within MPE to deliver a compiler that be standard. Even if you are not a paying customer.
to understand. Implementers too, it would seem. ANS dug a hole so deep it challenges everyone.
This is just DXforth's endless stream of drivel about how much he hates the
idea of a Forth standard, and how this puts his awesome creativity in a box.
So far, his awesome creativity has been to write a Z80 Forth (almost certainly
he used the source-code from Loelliger's book for this). His greatest achievment
is the END macro that he has been bragging about for decades:
: END POSTPONE THEN POSTPONE EXIT ; IMMEDIATE
He tried for a long time to say that I support him in his hatred for the idea of a Forth
standard, but he eventually stopped because of the obvious problem that I am a strong
proponent of having a Forth standard --- the Forth community should start any time!
He gets a thrill out of mocking me by using the term "disambiguifier" for various
kindergarten-level Forth that he has written that has nothing to do with disambiguifiers.
He really doesn't know anything about the subject.
Juergen Pintaske, of course, endlessly spams this forum with advertisements
for books that were written in the 1980s that he now (4 decades later) claims
that he is the coauthor of. He also has his "A Start with Forth" book that is just
an over-grown sales pamphlet for VFX. He knows nothing about Forth programming!
Stephen Pelc's support base is composed entirely of pompous fake-experts.
The bottom line is that VFX is failing to compile ANS-Forth compliant code that
it used to compile correctly (SwiftForth still does compile this correctly).
I'm not a major "victim" here because I can dump VFX and use a different compiler.
The major victims are the MPE customers who have a large investment in VFX
and who expected VFX to continue to compile ANS-Forth code correctly.
I have always relied on VFX. The failure of VFX to compile the ANS-Forth novice-package is an impetus for me to finally just write my own Forth system.F O R T H K I L L E R H U G H A Q U I S H I T T I S B A C K
I'm also looking into Ilya Tarasov's Ibris Forth (I'm likely the only person here
who knows where the name "Ibris" comes from and thinks that it is a cool name).
Forth has some kind of future that Stephen Pelc and his bug-ridden VFX will not be included in. Stephen Pelc was always a negative contributor to Forth
because he purposely crippled Forth-200x in order to make VFX look good in comparison. So, good riddeance to Stephen Pelc and his salesman Juergen Pintaske!
has escaped from his Mental Home again.
There was so much peace and quiet here
when he could not escape as of Corona.
Now he dumps his shit on CLF again.
There seems to be no work in Taxi Driving and Plumbing anymore either ...
Is there anybody here that gives a **** about the orgasms he generates while producing this shit?
At least it is visible that he is getting old.
It takes him a lot longer now.
And his brain is fortunately retiring,
as he does not remember the facts anymore.
For many years I have nothing to do with MPE / VFX anymore.
And it had been all documented here. But he is getting brain dead.
But a good point to remind me of the Forth Bookshelf I created,
and which will still be there when he is 6 foot under -
and I am quite proud of the work I did there.
Some of these books might be a bit dated,
but are there any better ones?
And they are still bought by people who are interested in Forth;
OK, there are only very few people,
as this guy tries to force them all away from here;
and number 5 - A Start with Forth -
is to my knowledge the newest Forth Documentation generated.
And I collected it and published it.
My knowledge of Forth is rather limited, just the basics;
does it matter?
But I enjoyed the bits I learnt
with the help of many here
and in the German Forth community
where such an idiot would just be excluded.
My Forth Bookshelf:
This is part of the current Forth Bookshelf and some other books and can be found at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM
Is there any interest?
Well, look at the ones that are included in the top 100 of the Compiler Books:
BESTSELLERS IN COMPILER DESIGN. https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/3970/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_5_last#5
Today only 3 of these books are there, but 3% is not bad, and it seems only one other Forth book.
Sometimes it goes up to 10% or more.
Not bad for a language like Forth.
1 Charles Moore - Forth - The Early Years: Background information about the
beginnings of this Computer Language
2 Charles Moore - Programming A Problem Oriented Language: Forth - how the internals work
3 Leo Brodie - Starting Forth -The Classic
4 Leo Wong – Juergen Pintaske – Stephen Pelc FORTH LITE TUTORIAL: Code tested with free MPE VFX Forth, SwiftForth and Gforth
5 Juergen Pintaske – A START WITH FORTH - Bits to Bites Collection
– 12 Words to start, then 35 Words, Javascript Forth on the Web, more
( 6 Stephen Pelc - Programming Forth: Version July 2016 )
7 Brad Rodriguez - Moving Forth / TTL CPU / B.Y.O. Assembler
8 Tim Hentlass - Real Time Forth
9 Chen-Hanson Ting - Footsteps In An Empty Valley issue 3
10 Chen-Hanson Ting - Zen and the Forth Language: EFORTH for the MSP430G2552 from Texas Instruments
11 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth and Zen - 3rd Edition 2017: with 32-bit 86eForth v5.2 for Visual Studio 2015
12 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth Overview
13 Chen-Hanson Ting - FIG-Forth Manual Document /Test in 1802 IP
14 Chen-Hanson Ting - EP32 RISC Processor IP: Description and Implementation into FPGA – ASIC tested by NASA
15 Chen-Hanson Ting – Irriducible Complexity
16 Chen-Hanson Ting - Arduino controlled by eForth
17 Chen-Hanson Ting – eForth as Arduino Sketch – no Programmer needed
( 18 Burkhard Kainka - Learning Programming with MyCo: )Wow! I literally don't know what to say. Hugh makes a couple of posts, and all the other nut cases start their jabbering again.
Learning Programming easily - independent of a PC (Forth code to follow soon)
( 19 Burkhard Kainka - BBC Micro:bit: Tests Tricks Secrets Code, Additional MicroBit )
information when running the Mecrisp Package
( 20 Burkhard Kainka – Thomas Baum – Web Programming ATYTINY13 )
21 Georg Heinrichs - The ATTINY Project – Why Forth?
22 Dr. Karl Meinzer - IPS, a Forth-like language for Space
Juergen Pintaske, publisher, July 2020
Sometimes I have to wonder about myself. I must be crazy to be any part of this nuthouse. I think I need to learn C++.
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Lorem Ipsum 在 2023年2月6日 星期一中午12:32:19 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道：
On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 1:40:24 PM UTC-5, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
My knowledge of Forth is rather limited, just the basics;
does it matter?
Sometimes I have to wonder about myself. I must be crazy to be any part of this nuthouse. I think I need to learn C++.Don't "think", just go ahead and learn C++. It may help your winkled mind from crazy:-)
I don't think that anybody on comp.lang.forth is smart enough to learn Forth. None of them are actually programming in Forth --- this is why none of them noticed
that VFX has serious bugs in POSTPONE LITERAL (and possibly any use of POSTPONE).
Getting code to actually work is the difficult part of programming, so many "programmers"
avoid ever being put in a position where they have to do this --- this is why comp.lang.forth
is full of super-duper programming experts who never do any programming.
In telling
programmers they have neither the time nor need to re-invent the wheel, one is
creating the "super-duper programming experts" who have no experience they can rely
on or call their own because everything has come second-hand.
True, ISTR that Elizabeth Rather said it is easier to teach a person with system/domain specific product experience to write Forth than to teach a forth expert to pick up the domain specific knowledge.
Jan Coombs <jan4comp....@murray-microft.co.uk> writes:
True, ISTR that Elizabeth Rather said it is easier to teach a person with system/domain specific product experience to write Forth than to teach a forth expert to pick up the domain specific knowledge.
That is certainly true for her: She is an expert in teaching Forth.
In general, if the programming part is simple, the approach outlined
above may work out. If the requirements on the programming are not so
simple, a domain expert with only a short programming education will
get the domain part right, but is likely to get in trouble in the programming. Such jobs require the collaboration of a domain expert
and a programming expert.
On 8/02/2023 12:01 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
I don't think that anybody on comp.lang.forth is smart enough to learn Forth.
None of them are actually programming in Forth --- this is why none of them noticed
that VFX has serious bugs in POSTPONE LITERAL (and possibly any use of POSTPONE).
Your complaint is nobody has recently used the Novice Pack else they would have
noticed. That's very likely correct.
Getting code to actually work is the difficult part of programming, so many "programmers"
avoid ever being put in a position where they have to do this --- this is why comp.lang.forth
is full of super-duper programming experts who never do any programming.
That's why the Novice Pack was created - to eliminate the difficulties. In telling
programmers they have neither the time nor need to re-invent the wheel, one is
creating the "super-duper programming experts" who have no experience they can rely
on or call their own because everything has come second-hand.
DXforth provides comp.lang.forth with an endless stream of drivel in which he claims that his awesome creativity must never be put in a box by any Forth standard
or code-library, because he can write super-efficient programs that are "exactly right"
due to him writing them entirely from scratch (Elizabeth Rather says the same thing).
DXforth has his Z80 Forth that is most likely copied out of Loelliger's book: "Threaded Interpretive Languages" (I read the book when I was still in high-school).
On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 10:58:22 AM UTC-7, Anton Ertl wrote:
Jan Coombs <jan4comp....@murray-microft.co.uk> writes:
True, ISTR that Elizabeth Rather said it is easier to teach a person with system/domain specific product experience to write Forth than to teach a forth expert to pick up the domain specific knowledge.
That is certainly true for her: She is an expert in teaching Forth.
In general, if the programming part is simple, the approach outlined
above may work out. If the requirements on the programming are not so
simple, a domain expert with only a short programming education will
get the domain part right, but is likely to get in trouble in the
programming. Such jobs require the collaboration of a domain expert
and a programming expert.
What Anton Ertl said is true.
DXforth is a typical troll.Ad hominem - so I'll just ignore that. Why do you want him to go away? I thought you'd
DXforth is a clown --- I want him to stop pestering me --- I want him to just go away.
I think I'd subscribe to that. It's a massive package and I don't really see the benefits ofYour complaint is nobody has recently used the Novice Pack else they would have
noticed. That's very likely correct.
The point of this thread is that the new version of VFX has serious bugs.I only heard of one so far.
Stephen Pelc obviously put these bugs in VFX to prevent my novice-package from working.Well, if the standards state "Interpretation semantics for this word are undefined" then
The bugs are in POSTPONE which is a crucial part of my early-binding MACRO: that
depends upon the disambiguifiers to be ANS-Forth compliant.
Stephen Pelc totally lied when he said that the disambiguifiers don't work. The disambiguifiers fix the bug in ANS-Forth that makes FIND and tick ambiguous
and unusable on all of the words in ANS-Forth (51 of them) whose definition includes
the statement: "Interpretation semantics for this word are undefined." https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/T-yYkpVwYew/m/tNE4Q9aNDwAJ
The novice-package was created to provide building blocks for writing programs,Are we having a "naming problem" here? If the novice package is not targeted to newbies
so the programmer can concentrate on writing his program, rather than dinking around
with implementing data-structures that were invented decades ago.
I'm not writing people's programs for them.
The novice-package is not for script kiddies who want their program already written
for them, and who will then write simple scripts on top of the program. People have to be able to write their own programs or the novice-package won't help them.
The novice package speeds up writing programs (certainly for me, as I don't have timeWell, speed is your personal "thing". I know that different techniques scale differently.
to reimplement basic data-structures over and over again). For example, I wrote my
<SWITCH with FAST-SWITCH> and SLOW-SWITCH> quickly using the novice-package. Later on, for the sake of efficiency, I did go back and rewrite the code for doing a
binary-search to be "exactly right for the application.' Note however, that I did this
*after* I had the program working --- if I had to do this on my first attempt at writing
the program I would have likely become bogged down in writing the binary-search
which would have been a huge distraction from writing the SLOW-SWITCH> code. Note also that Gerry Jackson has failed to write anything comparable to SLOW-SWITCH>
because he copied Michael Gassenenko's code that only had something comparable
to my FAST-SWITCH> and was not robust so it couldn't be upgraded to support
a sparse array, which is what SLOW-SWITCH> does. There is a big difference between
using a code-library (what I do) and copying somebody else's code (what Gerry Jackson
does, and what Elizabeth Rather described as: Having a lot of old programs in one's
back pocket, then reworking these old programs as slightly different new programs.)
I was able to focus my mind on new ideas, such as implementing code blocks (similar to C's code blocks but better). The assembler would have been much moreEverybody has the tools he or she is comfortable with. I recently had a discussion about
complicated if I had had to write everything from scratch without the novice-package.
The novice-package also makes these programs more efficient. Elizabeth Rather believesWell, have you ever considered that she may not be wrong, but that sometimes "good is good
that data-structures that are "exactly right for the application" will be super-efficient compared
to general-purpose data-structures that work for any application. She is wrong.
I put effort into making my novice-package efficient.That's worth some praise.
This is more effort than any application programmer is going to put in when writingTrue. That's why - in spite of the Forth myth that "one doesn't need libraries" I wrote
an application under deadline --- he can't tell the boss: "I will get started on my
assigned task as soon as I finish writing an array-definer and array-sort that is exactly right for
this application. I will start on the assigned task next week, unless something else comes up."
To keep his job he has to tell the boss that the task is finished at the end of the day:In my experience delivery dates are more important in business than any other property.
"I have already finished the assigned task. I used a bubble-sort on the array of structs,
so it is slow as molasses, but Forth code is expected to be inefficient, so who cares?
"I have already finished the assigned task using an array definer provided
in the book: 'Starting Forth.' I also used Wil Baden's array-sort code, both of which
require the array element to be one-cell in size. An array of cells is really the wrong
data-structure for holding sorted structs and supporting insertion or removal of elements.
"I have already finished the assigned task. I used the novice-package so it is efficient."More likely: "I've already finished the assigned task because even someone brainless
On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 8:42:14 PM UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
DXforth is a typical troll.Ad hominem - so I'll just ignore that. Why do you want him to go away? I thought you'd
DXforth is a clown --- I want him to stop pestering me --- I want him to just go away.
lost interest in c.l.f. - and yet: here we are.
I think I'd subscribe to that. It's a massive package and I don't really see the benefits ofYour complaint is nobody has recently used the Novice Pack else they would have
noticed. That's very likely correct.
it in my usual programming. But that's just me. Why don't you put it up in Github and see
how many people pick it up and discuss it? It would be real easy to end that discussion
with some actual numbers.
BTW what makes a programming expert?
dxforth <dxf...@gmail.com> writes:Anton, I *really* like the way you're thinking, man! A good definition is generally accepted - and agreeing on the definition is a prerequisite for starting any sensible discussion.
BTW what makes a programming expert?From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert>:
|An expert is somebody who has a broad and deep understanding and
|competence in terms of knowledge, skill and experience through
|practice and education in a particular field.
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:21:43 AM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote:[..]
dxforth <dxf...@gmail.com> writes:
Because the person in question can (and probably will) state that "your >understanding and competence is neither broad nor deep enough".
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 3:05:37 PM UTC+1, Hans Bezemer wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:21:43 AM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote:[..]
dxforth <dxf...@gmail.com> writes:
Because the person in question can (and probably will) state that "your >understanding and competence is neither broad nor deep enough".One is not an expert by declaring to be one, but because *others*
are of that opinion. That solves it.
-marcel
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:21:43 AM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote:...
dxforth <dxf...@gmail.com> writes:
BTW what makes a programming expert?From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert>:
|An expert is somebody who has a broad and deep understanding and
|competence in terms of knowledge, skill and experience through
|practice and education in a particular field.
However, in this case I'm afraid the dispute will focus on what constitutes
a "broad and deep understanding and competence". Without any criteria for >establishing that I'm afraid we're back to square one.
Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:21:43 AM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote:...
dxforth <dxf...@gmail.com> writes:
BTW what makes a programming expert?From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert>:
|An expert is somebody who has a broad and deep understanding and
|competence in terms of knowledge, skill and experience through
|practice and education in a particular field.
However, in this case I'm afraid the dispute will focus on what constitutes >> a "broad and deep understanding and competence". Without any criteria for
establishing that I'm afraid we're back to square one.
Considering the original issue, it's the manager of the project who
has to decide if the project requires a programming expert on the
team, and if so, who is competent enough to be the programming expert. Likewise for domain expertise.
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:21:43 AM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote:
dxforth <dxf...@gmail.com> writes:Anton, I *really* like the way you're thinking, man! A good definition is >generally accepted - and agreeing on the definition is a prerequisite for >starting any sensible discussion.
BTW what makes a programming expert?From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert>:
|An expert is somebody who has a broad and deep understanding and
|competence in terms of knowledge, skill and experience through
|practice and education in a particular field.
However, in this case I'm afraid the dispute will focus on what constitutes
a "broad and deep understanding and competence". Without any criteria for >establishing that I'm afraid we're back to square one.
Hans Bezemer
However, in this case I'm afraid the dispute will focus on what constitutes >a "broad and deep understanding and competence". Without any criteria for >establishing that I'm afraid we're back to square one.You buy a dictionary, that is words defined with the help of other words. There is no going around that.
Psychologists hate me. I'm unable to make any of their tests without bombarding
them with questions they cannot answer. If even you don't know, how can I ever
answer them with any confidence. If you require me to "guess" all I need is a dice.
Psychologists hate me. I'm unable to make any of their tests without bombardingWhy should they hate you - did you imagine you beat them? :)
them with questions they cannot answer. If even you don't know, how can I ever
answer them with any confidence. If you require me to "guess" all I need is a dice.
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 9:42:46 AM UTC+1, none albert wrote:
It's true that dictionaries and encyclopedias are a good source for well-establishedHowever, in this case I'm afraid the dispute will focus on what constitutesYou buy a dictionary, that is words defined with the help of other words. There is no going around that.
a "broad and deep understanding and competence". Without any criteria for >establishing that I'm afraid we're back to square one.
and generally accepted definitions. The object of a good definition is to make the
distinction between "this is one and this is not one". We have to accept though that
outside the realm of science lots of concepts have a loose meaning - and are consequently used quite loosely. Dictionaries reflect that.
Definitions can be classified in three ways (in order of diminishing strength):
- An intensional definition lists the necessary properties of of a concept. In other
words, you have to tick a number of boxes. In other words: all the members of this
set share the same properties;
- An extensional definition lists ALL members of that set by their identifiers;
- An ostensive definition lists one or more members of that set. Also called "definition
by pointing".
The definition of the expert listed is intensional - it lists the properties of members of
this set. The problem of intensional definitions is that you may introduce concepts
that have to be defined by themselves. In this case: what constitutes "broad and deep
understanding and competence"? Since that remains undefined we have a possible
source of discussion. And now the ugly face of the "loose meanings" rises its head.
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 2:25:57 PM UTC+1, dxforth wrote:
Psychologists hate me. I'm unable to make any of their tests without bombardingWhy should they hate you - did you imagine you beat them? :)
them with questions they cannot answer. If even you don't know, how can I ever
answer them with any confidence. If you require me to "guess" all I need is a dice.
Psychologists hate anything that exposes them as a "cargo cult science". Ask Feynman.
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!Maybe it has something to do with the fact the Stephen has retired to the south of Spain.
There can come a time in ones life where Forth is not the most important thing.
:-)
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!Maybe it has something to do with the fact the Stephen has retired to the south of Spain.
There can come a time in ones life where Forth is not the most important thing.
:-)
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!Maybe it has something to do with the fact the Stephen has retired to the south of Spain.
There can come a time in ones life where Forth is not the most important thing.
:-)
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!
Maybe it has something to do with the fact the Stephen has retired to the south of Spain.
There can come a time in ones life where Forth is not the most important thing.
:-)
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 12:06:45 PM UTC-7, Brian Fox wrote:
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, Hugh Aguilar wrote:That isn't true.
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!Maybe it has something to do with the fact the Stephen has retired to the south of Spain.
There can come a time in ones life where Forth is not the most important thing.
:-)
Stephen Pelc came out with this recent bug-ridden version of VFX.
If he has time to come out with a new version, he has time to fix the bugs in it.
He isn't fixing the bugs in VFX though, which means that he wants the bugs in VFX.
I think that he put the bugs into VFX purposefully to sabotage my novice-package.
I'm just glad that I never paid for the professional version of VFX, but continued
using the free evaluation version. I can only imagine the anguish of MPE customers
who paid good money for this bug-ridden VFX, only to be told that Stephen Pelc
is retired in southern Spain and no longer considers Forth to be important.
On 13/02/2023 6:06 am, Brian Fox wrote:
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!
Maybe it has something to do with the fact the Stephen has retired to the south of Spain.Not everyone is going to respond to an invitation to a show-down on main street! In a c.l.f. post (a few months ago?) Stephen said he would
There can come a time in ones life where Forth is not the most important thing.
:-)
continue to maintain VFX despite the move to Spain. Based on an email
reply I received from Stephen two weeks ago, he is still accepting bug reports. A recent post on the VFX forum suggests he may be currently
busy migrating servers.
On Sunday, 12 February 2023 at 23:02:08 UTC, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 12:06:45 PM UTC-7, Brian Fox wrote:
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, Hugh Aguilar wrote:That isn't true.
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!Maybe it has something to do with the fact the Stephen has retired to the south of Spain.
There can come a time in ones life where Forth is not the most important thing.
:-)
Stephen Pelc came out with this recent bug-ridden version of VFX.
If he has time to come out with a new version, he has time to fix the bugs in it.
He isn't fixing the bugs in VFX though, which means that he wants the bugs in VFX.
I think that he put the bugs into VFX purposefully to sabotage my novice-package.You are really a rather disturbed brain.
I'm just glad that I never paid for the professional version of VFX, but continued
using the free evaluation version. I can only imagine the anguish of MPE customers
who paid good money for this bug-ridden VFX, only to be told that Stephen Pelc
is retired in southern Spain and no longer considers Forth to be important.
It was rather nice when you stayed away from here.
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!Did anyone ever tell you you are like a broken record player? You return to the same
He isn't going to fix the bug (or bugs) in VFX that prevent VFX from compiling
ANS-Forth code.
In comp.lang.forth, any thread that involves technical issues related to Forth willAs a matter of fact, it's just stuff from a freshman's textbook. Quite basic. It's relevant
quickly get hijacked by pseudo-intellectual blither-blather.
enjoy debates that allow them to represent themselves as big programming expertsWell, given the number of vicious "ad hominem" from your side, I would like to reconsider
without requiring them to do any programming.
Presumably the purpose of this discussion is to conclude that I'm not an expert.You can presume all you want. That doesn't mean that it's true. The point is, you
It's nice when people like you don't respond. You talk about others being monkeysDefine "people like me". I always thought I was an individual with a unique set of skills, ideas and character traits.
throwing shit, then you pick it up and throw it around some more.
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:30:30 AM UTC-4, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
On Sunday, 12 February 2023 at 23:02:08 UTC, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 12:06:45 PM UTC-7, Brian Fox wrote:
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, Hugh Aguilar wrote:That isn't true.
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!Maybe it has something to do with the fact the Stephen has retired to the south of Spain.
There can come a time in ones life where Forth is not the most important thing.
:-)
Stephen Pelc came out with this recent bug-ridden version of VFX.
If he has time to come out with a new version, he has time to fix the bugs in it.
He isn't fixing the bugs in VFX though, which means that he wants the bugs in VFX.
I think that he put the bugs into VFX purposefully to sabotage my novice-package.You are really a rather disturbed brain.
I'm just glad that I never paid for the professional version of VFX, but continued
using the free evaluation version. I can only imagine the anguish of MPE customers
who paid good money for this bug-ridden VFX, only to be told that Stephen Pelc
is retired in southern Spain and no longer considers Forth to be important.
It was rather nice when you stayed away from here.
It's nice when people like you don't respond. You talk about others being monkeys throwing shit, then you pick it up and throw it around some more.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 12:44:43 AM UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
The silence from Stephen Pelc is deafening!Did anyone ever tell you you are like a broken record player? You return to the same
He isn't going to fix the bug (or bugs) in VFX that prevent VFX from compiling
ANS-Forth code.
issue over and over again without adding any additional arguments like some entitled
princess complaining the Porsche 911 she got from daddy for her sixteenth birthday
doesn't have the right shade of pink. By your own admission - you're not even a paying
customer.
The comp.lang.forth trolls
enjoy debates that allow them to represent themselves as big programming experts
without requiring them to do any programming.
Now let's put forward some of the things people have done here:
(2) They voted on extensions to the standard;
(3) They submitted extensions to the standard;
(4) They wrote (parts of) the standard;
(6) They wrote articles on Forth;
(7) They wrote papers on Forth;
(8) They wrote tutorials on Forth;
(9) They made presentations on Forth;
(10) They are respected by their peers for their knowledge.
(1) They wrote their own compiler;
(5) They contributed code to this forum;
Stop lying to his potential customers that VFX is ANS-Forth compliant.You're not a paying customer, pal.
Anybody who paid for VFX should demand their money back because of Stephen Pelc'sWhich automatically excludes you.
false and deceptive advertising.
Stephen Pelc doesn't care because he wants VFX to be the only Forth system available.With people like you - who don't write their own compiler - he MIGHT get there.
All of these are what I described above --- pseudo-intellectual blither-blatherIf you're not happy, make a better list, which may be objectively scored - and defend why
that allows the fake experts to represent themselves as big programming experts
without requiring them to do any programming.
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:41:01 AM UTC-7, Hans Bezemer wrote:Yes - and you didn't produce anything at all in that regard. I win!
(1) They wrote their own compiler;Your 4TH is a byte-code VM written in C.
For example, we have Bernd Paysan's fake quotations that don't have accessPeople who use local variables are sissies ;-)
to the parent function's local variables.
As yet another example, we have Wil Baden's string-stack.You got three string stacks of mine as well.
He doesn't know what COW (copy-on-write) is. You don't know either.I know that overcomplicating code is your personal hobby.
...
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:41:01 AM UTC-7, Hans Bezemer wrote:
(5) They contributed code to this forum;
All of the code posted on comp.lang.forth is crap.
For example, we have Bernd Paysan's fake quotations that don't have access
to the parent function's local variables.
As another example, we have Anton Ertl's early-binding macro facility that lacks
support for literal numbers or support for words that extract data from the input stream (words such as: [CHAR] ['] / ( S" C" ." ABORT" POSTPONE etc.).
As yet another example, we have Wil Baden's string-stack.
He doesn't know what COW (copy-on-write) is. You don't know either.
Nobody on comp.lang.forth knows basic programming concepts such as this.
On 18/02/2023 2:53 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
...
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:41:01 AM UTC-7, Hans Bezemer wrote:
(5) They contributed code to this forum;
All of the code posted on comp.lang.forth is crap.
For example, we have Bernd Paysan's fake quotations that don't have access to the parent function's local variables.
As another example, we have Anton Ertl's early-binding macro facility that lacks
support for literal numbers or support for words that extract data from the input stream (words such as: [CHAR] ['] / ( S" C" ." ABORT" POSTPONE etc.).
As yet another example, we have Wil Baden's string-stack.Speaking of code posted on c.l.f. Even a novice might baulk at a float-to-string
He doesn't know what COW (copy-on-write) is. You don't know either.
Nobody on comp.lang.forth knows basic programming concepts such as this.
routine that can't display numbers to the precision of the system. Then there's
the limitation stemming from the use of F>D and the inability to handle INF/NAN.
Here's a possible solution to the first problem. The remainder I leave to you.
On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 6:58:45 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 18/02/2023 2:53 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
...Speaking of code posted on c.l.f. Even a novice might baulk at a float-to-string
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:41:01 AM UTC-7, Hans Bezemer wrote:
(5) They contributed code to this forum;
All of the code posted on comp.lang.forth is crap.
For example, we have Bernd Paysan's fake quotations that don't have access >>> to the parent function's local variables.
As another example, we have Anton Ertl's early-binding macro facility that lacks
support for literal numbers or support for words that extract data from the >>> input stream (words such as: [CHAR] ['] / ( S" C" ." ABORT" POSTPONE etc.). >>>
As yet another example, we have Wil Baden's string-stack.
He doesn't know what COW (copy-on-write) is. You don't know either.
Nobody on comp.lang.forth knows basic programming concepts such as this.
routine that can't display numbers to the precision of the system. Then there's
the limitation stemming from the use of F>D and the inability to handle INF/NAN.
Here's a possible solution to the first problem. The remainder I leave to you.
I've never taken advice from a maintenance programmer, and I never will.
I figure things out for myself.
The bottom line is that Stephen Pelc advertises VFX as being ANS-Forth compliant, but VFX fails to compile ANS-Forth code.
Well, the "maintenance programmer" has his own Forth compiler. The "maintenance programmer" wrote lots of code (most significantly in number representation) thatI've never taken advice from a maintenance programmer, and I never will.You had 14 years to figure it out.
I figure things out for myself.
I've never taken advice from a maintenance programmer, and I never will.
I figure things out for myself.
On 21/02/2023 9:10 am, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 6:58:45 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 18/02/2023 2:53 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
...routine that can't display numbers to the precision of the system. Then there's
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:41:01 AM UTC-7, Hans Bezemer wrote: >>>> (5) They contributed code to this forum;
All of the code posted on comp.lang.forth is crap.
For example, we have Bernd Paysan's fake quotations that don't have access
to the parent function's local variables.
As another example, we have Anton Ertl's early-binding macro facility that lacks
support for literal numbers or support for words that extract data from the
input stream (words such as: [CHAR] ['] / ( S" C" ." ABORT" POSTPONE etc.).
As yet another example, we have Wil Baden's string-stack.
He doesn't know what COW (copy-on-write) is. You don't know either.
Nobody on comp.lang.forth knows basic programming concepts such as this. >> Speaking of code posted on c.l.f. Even a novice might baulk at a float-to-string
the limitation stemming from the use of F>D and the inability to handle INF/NAN.
Here's a possible solution to the first problem. The remainder I leave to you.
I've never taken advice from a maintenance programmer, and I never will.You had 14 years to figure it out.
I figure things out for myself.
The bottom line is that Stephen Pelc advertises VFX as being ANS-Forth compliant, but VFX fails to compile ANS-Forth code.Bottom line is Stephen accepts bug reports and even corrections. That's more than can be said of certain drama queens.
Here is another bug in VFX:
--------------------------------------
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok-2
2dup type 1234567892 ok-2
--------------------------------------
I told Stephen Pelc about this bug many years ago. He never fixed it.
He is stupidly using <# #> internally to print the stack depth (the "ok-2"). <# #> uses a static global pad. So, the string returned by TTT gets over-written.
The next time that I TYPE this string it has been over-written by the '2'.
On 22/02/2023 3:33 am, Hugh Aguilar wrote:...
Here is another bug in VFX:
--------------------------------------
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok-2
2dup type 1234567892 ok-2
--------------------------------------
I have exactly this 'bug' in DX-Forth
ANS states data in the numeric output buffer is temporary
and subject to being overwritten.
...
There are systems without this bug:
SwiftForth x64-Linux 4.0.0-RC52 20-Sep-2022
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok
2dup type 1234567811 ok
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok
2dup type 1234567890 ok
Strange.
On Wednesday, February 22, 2023 at 1:06:59 PM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote:
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok
2dup type 1234567890 ok
Strange.
It's IMHO not strange.
Obviously VFX uses the buffer to generate the number of stack items
still remaining. Hence: 0 => 2 (that's the number that is generated).
I don't know how Gforth does it, because it *seems* to use the same system:
now produces the string for the next-outer nest. All of Gforth’shigher-level numeric output words use <<# ... #> ... #>> and can be
( xd – addr u ) core “number-sign-greater”|
|( – ) gforth-0.5 “number-sign-greater-greater”
...
I introduced <<# .. #>> in response to a bug report (AT-XY destroyed
the HOLD area) and posted on 1999-02-21 (24th anniversary yesterday)
about it here. I also posted about this feature here later, with a
total of 55 occurences in my postings, but AFAIK no system picked it
up.
SYSPAD >QPAD >PAD to name but three.
...
I introduced <<# .. #>> in response to a bug report (AT-XY destroyed
the HOLD area) and posted on 1999-02-21 (24th anniversary yesterday)
about it here. I also posted about this feature here later, with a
total of 55 occurences in my postings, but AFAIK no system picked it
up.
Looks more like an omission on the part of ANS than a bug. AT-XY
definitely falls into the category of 'things that output numbers'.
That no other system has picked up <<# .. #>> suggests they have
other, perhaps simpler, ways of handling potential conflicts e.g.
SYSPAD >QPAD >PAD to name but three.
dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:<SNIP>
On 22/02/2023 3:33 am, Hugh Aguilar wrote:...
Here is another bug in VFX:
--------------------------------------
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok-2
2dup type 1234567892 ok-2
--------------------------------------
I have exactly this 'bug' in DX-Forth
Buggery loves company?
There are systems without this bug:
SwiftForth i386-Linux 3.11.0 23-Feb-2021
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok
2dup type 1234567890 ok
Gforth 0.7.9_20230209
...
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok 2
2dup type 1234567890 ok 2
None of these conditions happened here. Some may argue that the
system may use one of the words that may overwrite the pictured
numeric output string buffer internally at any place, but that would
mean that the standard gives no guarantee at all about the contents of
the buffer, which would make <# # #S HOLD #> etc. unusable in standard >programs; standardizing these words would make no sense.
So, the conclusion is that the second TYPE in the example above must
output 1234567890 on a standard system with a large-enough cell size.
- anton
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
In article <tt6a0l$1ktpa$1@dont-email.me>, dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> wrote:
On 23/02/2023 5:32 am, Anton Ertl wrote:
...
I introduced <<# .. #>> in response to a bug report (AT-XY destroyed
the HOLD area) and posted on 1999-02-21 (24th anniversary yesterday)
about it here. I also posted about this feature here later, with a
total of 55 occurences in my postings, but AFAIK no system picked it
up.
Looks more like an omission on the part of ANS than a bug. AT-XY
definitely falls into the category of 'things that output numbers'.
That no other system has picked up <<# .. #>> suggests they have
other, perhaps simpler, ways of handling potential conflicts e.g.
SYSPAD >QPAD >PAD to name but three.
There is a simple solution that make the problem goes way.
Or rather it doesn't exist in the first place.
I introduced the FORMAT tool comparable with the % tools of mpe forth.
This carefully copies outputs of <# #> (here (D.R) ) to a static
buffers of its own.
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require DONOTSIN.
Stephen
On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 7:53:49 AM UTC-5, Stephen Pelc wrote:
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require >> DONOTSIN.
Stephen
LOL. Very cute word name.
I get verklempt just reading the directive "doNotSin"
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require
DONOTSIN.
StephenLOL. Very cute word name.
On 19 Jan 2023 at 04:34:11 CET, "Hugh Aguilar" <hughag...@gmail.com>
wrote:
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require DONOTSIN.
Stephen
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require DONOTSIN.Are you planning on describing this bug fix publicly?
Are you planning on describing this bug fix publicly?
More likely, you will provide the bug fix only to the verklempt worms --- your sycophants.
On 23/02/2023 5:32 am, Anton Ertl wrote:
...
I introduced <<# .. #>> in response to a bug report (AT-XY destroyed
the HOLD area) and posted on 1999-02-21 (24th anniversary yesterday)
about it here. I also posted about this feature here later, with a
total of 55 occurences in my postings, but AFAIK no system picked it
up.
Looks more like an omission on the part of ANS than a bug.
AT-XY
definitely falls into the category of 'things that output numbers'.
That no other system has picked up <<# .. #>> suggests they have
other, perhaps simpler, ways of handling potential conflicts e.g.
SYSPAD >QPAD >PAD to name but three.
lina -a
-1 1 RSHIFT 0 <# #S #> 2DUP
OK
TYPE
9223372036854775807 OK
TYPE
9223372036854775807 OK
ciforth passes this test. However ...
if you ask ciforth to do DO-DEBUG i.e. to print its stack content
with each ok, then it clobbers the static area.
WANT DO-DEBUG
S[ ] OK -1 1 RSHIFT 0 <# #S #>
S[ 4256305 19 ] OK 2DUP TYPE
9223372036854256319
Makes sense, but how to assess this situation?
I introduced the FORMAT tool comparable with the % tools of mpe forth.
This carefully copies outputs of <# #> (here (D.R) ) to a static
buffers of its own.
This 1 screen tool has multiple uses (for e.g. defining classes).
( FORMAT FORMAT&EVAL .FORMAT ) \ AH&CH C2feb15
DATA CRS$ 4096 ALLOT \ ":2" WANTED
NAMESPACE FORMAT-WID FORMAT-WID DEFINITIONS
: c CRS$ $C+ ; : n ^J c ; : r ^M c ; \ Add single char's
: d S>D 0 (D.R) CRS$ $+! ; \ Add INT as a string.
: s CRS$ $+! ; \ Add a STRING as such.
PREVIOUS DEFINITIONS
\ Format the first part of STRING, up till %, leave REST.
: _plain &% $/ CRS$ $+! ;
\ Format X with first word of STRING, up till BL, leave REST.
: _format BL $/ 2SWAP >R >R 'FORMAT-WID >WID (FIND) NIP NIP
DUP 0= 51 ?ERROR EXECUTE R> R> ;
\ Format X1 .. Xn using the format STRING.
: FORMAT 0 CRS$ ! BEGIN DUP WHILE _plain DUP IF _format THEN
REPEAT 2DROP CRS$ $@ ;
: FORMAT&EVAL FORMAT EVALUATE ; : .FORMAT FORMAT TYPE ;
Using this wordset for AT-XY has no problems of the kind
mentioned, e.g.
: AT-XY 1+ SWAP 1+ SWAP "%e [%dd ;%dd H" .FORMAT ;
You must be aware if any tools use static buffers.
The strategy must be. If you don't use the buffer
right away, you have to copy the string to an
application buffer that is totally under your control.
In article <c71eeceb-54f8-4ab1...@googlegroups.com>,
Hugh Aguilar <hughag...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never taken advice from a maintenance programmer, and I never will.In the 40 years I have worked with all kind of industries, the truth
I figure things out for myself.
is you have to build on work of others 80% of the time.
I guess I am a 80% maintenance programmer.
Speaking of code posted on c.l.f. Even a novice might baulk at a float-to-string
routine that can't display numbers to the precision of the system. Then there's
the limitation stemming from the use of F>D and the inability to handle INF/NAN.
Here's a possible solution to the first problem. The remainder I leave to you.
On 25/02/2023 4:07 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
Are you planning on describing this bug fix publicly?When may we expect your fix for the f/p output bug in the novice pack?
More likely, you will provide the bug fix only to the verklempt worms --- your sycophants.
dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
On 23/02/2023 5:32 am, Anton Ertl wrote:
...
I introduced <<# .. #>> in response to a bug report (AT-XY destroyed
the HOLD area) and posted on 1999-02-21 (24th anniversary yesterday)
about it here. I also posted about this feature here later, with a
total of 55 occurences in my postings, but AFAIK no system picked it
up.
Looks more like an omission on the part of ANS than a bug.
Not to me.
AT-XY
definitely falls into the category of 'things that output numbers'.
Probably depends on the environment. But anyway, given that the
solution is as simple as using <<# and #>>, there is no reason for
AT-XY to destroy the hold buffer.
...
Your comments inspired me to test various systems on Linux with an
xterm with
page 456789. <# #s #> 1 2 at-xy type cr bye
The PAGE and AT-XY seemed to work fine on all systems. The output at
that position was:
Gforth: 456789
iforth: 456789
lxf:
sf64: 456782
vfx64: 456782
If lxf, sf64, or vfx64 use the other ways you suggest, they don't seem
to work.
On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 5:29:49 AM UTC-7, none albert wrote:
In article <c71eeceb-54f8-4ab1...@googlegroups.com>,
Hugh Aguilar <hughag...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never taken advice from a maintenance programmer, and I never will. >>> I figure things out for myself.In the 40 years I have worked with all kind of industries, the truth
is you have to build on work of others 80% of the time.
I guess I am a 80% maintenance programmer.
In my experience, there is no such thing as an 80% maintenance programmer. There are only 99.9% maintenance programmers. The require somebody smart
to write 99.9% of the code, then they do 0.1% of the code and claim 99% credit.
We had this insult flung at me earlier:
On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 6:58:45 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
Speaking of code posted on c.l.f. Even a novice might baulk at a float-to-string
routine that can't display numbers to the precision of the system. Then there's
the limitation stemming from the use of F>D and the inability to handle INF/NAN.
Here's a possible solution to the first problem. The remainder I leave to you.
When DXforth says, "The remainder I leave to you," he is implying that he is to be
credited with 99% of the novice package, and the remainder will be left to me.
The liar Tom Hart said that MFX was written long before I showed up at
Testra and that I had nothing to do with it.
He was accusing me of being a soulless
maintenance programmer who wrote 0.1% of the code and then tried to claim
99% of the credit. He was lying. I will never forgive him for this lie.
I don't provide the novice-package to the general public anymore.
None of the smirky trolls on comp.lang.forth (including DXforth) are authorized
to have a copy of the novice package. If you have an old copy of the novice package,
delete it from your computer. That is my intellectual property --- not yours!
In article <03da6e10-f1ee-47d0-898d-5463ca647b26n@googlegroups.com>,Of course I meant "can't".
Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't provide the novice-package to the general public anymore.
None of the smirky trolls on comp.lang.forth (including DXforth) are authorized
to have a copy of the novice package. If you have an old copy of the
novice package,
delete it from your computer. That is my intellectual property --- not yours!
You can retroactively change the copyright conditions.
If I was entitled to download the source at the time, it sticks.Apparently it was under the BSD license.
I don't provide the novice-package to the general public anymore.
None of the smirky trolls on comp.lang.forth (including DXforth) are authorized
to have a copy of the novice package. If you have an old copy of the
novice package,
delete it from your computer. That is my intellectual property --- not yours!
In article <nnd$1c7f76fe$0a06061c@701394006c4d786b>,
none) (albert <albert@cherry.> wrote:
In article <03da6e10-f1ee-47d0...@googlegroups.com>,
Hugh Aguilar <hughag...@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't provide the novice-package to the general public anymore.
None of the smirky trolls on comp.lang.forth (including DXforth) are authorized
to have a copy of the novice package. If you have an old copy of the >>novice package,
delete it from your computer. That is my intellectual property --- not yours!
You can retroactively change the copyright conditions.Of course I meant "can't".
If I was entitled to download the source at the time, it sticks.Apparently it was under the BSD license.
Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in the air. First gain is a cat spinning. - the Wise from Antrim -
On 25/02/2023 4:07 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
Are you planning on describing this bug fix publicly?
More likely, you will provide the bug fix only to the verklempt worms ---
your sycophants.
When may we expect your fix for the f/p output bug in the novice pack?
I can't associate with soulless maintenance programmers such as DXforth, Albert van der Horst, Hans Bezemer, etc.. This just gives Tom Hart the opportunity to say: "Birds of a feather stick together." Guilt by association!Let me begin this by publicly stating that I don't want, need, require or ask for any association with you in any way, shape or form. So relax.
I demand that my novice package should be removed from theYou lost that right the moment you published your code with a reference
www.Forth2020 website. This is grossly unethical to post my code on
your website when I have clearly said that you don't have my permission.
All of the Forth-2020 enthusiasts attack my code with the intention of proving that I'm incompetent.Yeah, right, Hugh. Everybody is out to get you. That's their main purpose in live. But frankly, I think you damaged your reputation more than anyone on c.l.f could or would ever do.
These are truly evil people! I want them to leave me alone!Somehow this reminds me of South Parks "World Privacy Tour".
On Sunday, 26 February 2023 at 09:39:40 UTC, none albert wrote:
In article <nnd$1c7f76fe$0a06061c@701394006c4d786b>,
none) (albert <albert@cherry.> wrote:
In article <03da6e10-f1ee-47d0...@googlegroups.com>,
Hugh Aguilar <hughag...@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't provide the novice-package to the general public anymore.
None of the smirky trolls on comp.lang.forth (including DXforth) are authorized
to have a copy of the novice package. If you have an old copy of the >>novice package,
delete it from your computer. That is my intellectual property --- not yours!
You can retroactively change the copyright conditions.Of course I meant "can't".
If I was entitled to download the source at the time, it sticks. Apparently it was under the BSD license.Groetjes Albert
I am amazed what all of this fuss is about
The old version of the novice package is here https://www.forth2020.org/beginners-to-forth/a-novice-package
can be downloaded by anybody.
If there is a new version to be discussed it should be accessible as well. If not, the CLF should move to more fruitful discussions.
According to Hugh they are all liars anyway ....
The link here is dead
original document : -- http://www.forth.org/novice.html --
Albert van der Horst wrote:
It sounds like you have a whole machinery in place to tests rng's.
Would you mind adding LC53 to the list?
\ Comma for clarity, not a double number.Hm, wasn't Hugh's LC53
: LC53 -5 um* -333,333,333 + nip ;
: lc53 -333333333 um* -5 um/mod drop ;
? Don't make Hugh look more stupid than he actually is ;-).
In article <eqKdnSUOWM1xtgrP...@supernews.com>,
Andrew Haley <andr...@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
Bernd Paysan <bernd....@gmx.de> wrote:
LC53 is a maximum period linear congruent random number generator -
so far, so good. It has the usual problems of LCGs, so it doesn't
pass any serious randomness test suite. It is certainly not worse
than others,
Did you really mean to say that? All we know is that it is notSure Hugh got lucky...
certainly worse. I doubt very much that a generator chosen without
any theoretical justification or testing is as good as any. It's not >impossible, but it would be a fantastic stroke of luck.
In this thread Albert van der Horst repeated posted non-working crap code >that looked similar to my code, but he was lying --- it wasn't my code.
He was telling these lies about me to support his claim that I'm incompetent >and he is an expert. Eventually he and Andrew Haley concluded that I had >written working code, but this was pure luck because I knew nothing of theory >and didn't do any tested (somewhat like a monkey banging on a keyboard).
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 8:22:42 AM UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
I demand that my novice package should be removed from theYou lost that right the moment you published your code with a reference
www.Forth2020 website. This is grossly unethical to post my code on
your website when I have clearly said that you don't have my permission.
to the BSD license. There is as little you can do as I can do reassigning previous releases of my code under the LGPL v3 license. Any concessions people do is pure courtesy.
All of the Forth-2020 enthusiasts attack my code with the intention of proving that I'm incompetent.Yeah, right, Hugh. Everybody is out to get you. That's their main purpose in live. But frankly, I think you damaged your reputation more than anyone on c.l.f could or would ever do.
These are truly evil people! I want them to leave me alone!Somehow this reminds me of South Parks "World Privacy Tour".
Hans Bezemer
On this page: https://www.forth2020.org/beginners-to-forth/a-novice-package The Forth2020 liars say this: "239 Kb zip file this file is up to date to Oct.2020"
They are lying! I never gave them an updated version.
They have an old copy of the novice package from 2010 that they are saying
is the best that I've come up with in all of these years.
Most likely they sabotaged my novice package to turn it into non-working crap to support their claim that I'm incompetent and they are Forth experts.
The Forth-2020 "experts" are truly evil people! They are chronic liars.
On 1/03/2023 6:22 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
On this page:
https://www.forth2020.org/beginners-to-forth/a-novice-package
The Forth2020 liars say this: "239 Kb zip file this file is up to
date to Oct.2020"
They are lying! I never gave them an updated version.
They have an old copy of the novice package from 2010 that they are
saying
is the best that I've come up with in all of these years.
The file dates are 10/2020. One of them has the notice:
"copyright (c) 2016, BSD license"
Most likely they sabotaged my novice package to turn it into
non-working crap
to support their claim that I'm incompetent and they are Forth experts.
What evidence of sabotage do you have? Which of those files has been tampered with?
I see no claim of incompetence on that webpage - quite the
contrary, I
see your description of the contents of the novice pack.
The Forth-2020 "experts" are truly evil people! They are chronic liars.
Not as far I can see. They devoted a webpage to your novice pack and your response is abuse. If anything, it appears to be you who has lost confidence
in the novice pack.
On Wednesday, 1 March 2023 at 08:12:24 UTC, Hans Bezemer wrote:
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 8:22:42 AM UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
I demand that my novice package should be removed from theYou lost that right the moment you published your code with a reference
www.Forth2020 website. This is grossly unethical to post my code on
your website when I have clearly said that you don't have my permission.
to the BSD license. There is as little you can do as I can do reassigning previous releases of my code under the LGPL v3 license. Any concessions people do is pure courtesy.
All of the Forth-2020 enthusiasts attack my code with the intention of proving that I'm incompetent.Yeah, right, Hugh. Everybody is out to get you. That's their main purpose in
live. But frankly, I think you damaged your reputation more than anyone on c.l.f could or would ever do.
These are truly evil people! I want them to leave me alone!Somehow this reminds me of South Parks "World Privacy Tour".
Hans BezemerWhat a lovely situation.
Really makes me smile.
Let the two Forth Killers fight it out:
HUGH AGUILAR AGAINST PETER whatever fake he calls himself today.
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 5:20:54 AM UTC-4, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
On Wednesday, 1 March 2023 at 08:12:24 UTC, Hans Bezemer wrote:
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 8:22:42 AM UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
I demand that my novice package should be removed from the www.Forth2020 website. This is grossly unethical to post my code on your website when I have clearly said that you don't have my permission.You lost that right the moment you published your code with a reference to the BSD license. There is as little you can do as I can do reassigning
previous releases of my code under the LGPL v3 license. Any concessions people do is pure courtesy.
All of the Forth-2020 enthusiasts attack my code with the intention of proving that I'm incompetent.Yeah, right, Hugh. Everybody is out to get you. That's their main purpose in
live. But frankly, I think you damaged your reputation more than anyone on
c.l.f could or would ever do.
These are truly evil people! I want them to leave me alone!Somehow this reminds me of South Parks "World Privacy Tour".
Hans BezemerWhat a lovely situation.
Really makes me smile.
Let the two Forth Killers fight it out:
HUGH AGUILAR AGAINST PETER whatever fake he calls himself today.
This are a bunch of Trumpian lies. Especially if you accuse me of lying,
it was a honest mistake. I certainly am an expert, but you are just conditionally incompetent.
Anyhow I made a promise to redress the contribution I made on wikipedia. Apparently you prefer to rant about it, since a decenium now.
Groetjes Albert
Any normal person would be pleased for the
publicity but not Hugh because he is afraid that someone might make a
mild criticism or, heaven forbid, report a bug - he won't risk that.
I fully expect him to retaliate with the the nth (n > 5) repetition of
an outrageous lie about plagiarism on my part. Or perhaps he'll invent a
new lie. He is a follower of Trump in believing that continuous
repetition of a lie makes it the truth.
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 12:56:52 PM UTC-7, Gerry Jackson wrote:
Any normal person would be pleased for the
publicity but not Hugh because he is afraid that someone might make a
mild criticism or, heaven forbid, report a bug - he won't risk that.
This is not the first time that the Forth-200x committee has tried to
say that I'm a supporter of Forth-200x. They are desperate for support!
The RfD for the Paysan-faked quotations, written by Alex McDonald,
listed me as a contributor. This is despite the fact that I have always
said that the Paysan-faked quotations are worthless crap, and then
I came up with the rquotations that actually work (the rquotations have access to the parent function's local variables). I threatened to hit the Forth-200x committee with a lawsuit for libel in listing my name as
as contributor to the Paysan-faked quotations. Alex McDonald
grudgingly removed my name, so I thought that would end it. Then
Anton Ertl took over the RfD and he put my name back in as a contributor!
I had to threaten the libel lawsuit again, and then Anton Ertl removed
my name. This is not "publicity" --- this is libel.
Accusing me of being a contributor to the Paysan-faked quotations
is accusing me of being incompetent to the level of mental retardation.
Elizabeth Rather is the queen of liars!
She listed Charles Moore as a contributor to ANS-Forth. In 1994 she
put his name in the ANS-Forth document, despite the fact that he quit ANS-Forth in 1989 and slammed the door on his way out.
I have a copy of his exit speech and he really slammed ANS-Forth
for being worthless from a technical standpoint.
Now we have the Forth-200x committee telling the same kind of lie about me, claiming that I am a contributor to Forth-200x although I'm not.
The Forth-200x mailing-list is a honey pot. The purpose is to attract
Forth programmers to the idea of a standard so they sign up for the
mailing list. Pretty soon they realize that Forth-200x is pure crap, so they abandon Forth-200x --- but the Forth-200x committee will continue to
list their name as a contributor forever --- this is how the Forth-200x committee fake up the appearance of having the support of the
entire Forth community for their steaming pile of corporate marketing.
I fully expect him to retaliate with the the nth (n > 5) repetition of
an outrageous lie about plagiarism on my part. Or perhaps he'll invent a new lie. He is a follower of Trump in believing that continuous
repetition of a lie makes it the truth.
You are lying when you say that I'm a follower of Trump.
This is a very off-topic accusation to make against me.
Here is a Forth-related lie from Gerry Jackson. https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/y96tQf_iOSk/m/WhpmjMTeAgAJ Gerry Jackson, as well as Alex McDonald and Anton Ertl, were hoisting
the outrageous lie that my disambiguifiers magically allow words with
"no interpretation semantics" such as IF R@ etc., to be used in interpret mode,
such as inside of [ ] brackets. This usually works for IF and some other such words
in some ANS-Forth implementations (SwiftForth), but this is not ANS-Forth compliant because it is an obvious violation of the ANS-Forth standard.
In rare cases, this works for R@ and some other such words, but this is very dependent upon which ANS-Forth compiler is being used. This is extremely bad Forth programming to rely on this because it usually won't work.
The liars Gerry Jackson, Alex McDonals and Anton Ertl were trying to confuse the ANS-Forth programmers with a hand-waving argument to make this turkey fly.
Nobody believed them. Their arguments were bizarre and obviously wrong.
none albert 在 2023年3月1日 星期三下午5:19:23 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道：
This are a bunch of Trumpian lies. Especially if you accuse me of lying,
it was a honest mistake. I certainly am an expert, but you are just
conditionally incompetent.
Anyhow I made a promise to redress the contribution I made on wikipedia.
Apparently you prefer to rant about it, since a decenium now.
Groetjes Albert
I wonder you must a sexual deviation lib. Why you hate Trump so much? Just because he has an opposite view on behavior you have?
--Jach
Elizabeth Rather is the queen of liars!
She listed Charles Moore as a contributor to ANS-Forth. In 1994 she
put his name in the ANS-Forth document, despite the fact that he quit ANS-Forth in 1989 and slammed the door on his way out.
I have a copy of his exit speech and he really slammed ANS-Forth
for being worthless from a technical standpoint.
Pretty soon they realize that Forth-200x is pure crap, so theyGee, are we starting that discussion again? Yeah, Forth-83 was bad. Lots
abandon Forth-200x --- but the Forth-200x committee will continue to
list their name as a contributor forever --- this is how the Forth-200x committee fake up the appearance of having the support of the
entire Forth community for their steaming pile of corporate marketing.
...
Forth-200x? Same thing. Make stuff loadable, so one has a choice. The advantage of following a standard is that you can nick some code and
your stuff will run on other Forth compilers. The bigger the difference between your implementation and the standard, the more work you need
to do. So it boils down to how much work you want to put into it as
penalty for your stubbornness.
Most likely they sabotaged my novice package to turn it into
non-working crap
to support their claim that I'm incompetent and they are Forth experts. Where have they made that claim, and who are 'they'? Claims without any evidence are worthless. What makes you think they even care about your competence?
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:28:18 -0700 (PDT), hughag...@gmail.com
wrote:
My complaint against Stephen Pelc is that he uses dishonest business practi= >ces. He supports ANS-Forth and Forth-200x for the purpose of making all For= >th programmers look stupid. He doesn't actually use ANS-Forth himself. He r= >outinely provides vendor-specific code in VFX, even when it is easy to writ= >e the code in ANS-Forth, for the purpose of trapping his customers in vendo= >r lock-in. A good example is SYNONYM --- I can write this in ANS-Forth usin= >g my disambiguifiers --- he insists that this is impossible to write in ANS= >-Forth --- he refuses to admit that the disambiguifiers exist because he wa= >nts ANS-Forth's FIND to behave differently in every ANS-Forth compiler.
Hugh's wonderful disambiguifiers do NOT do what the great Hugh thinks
they do. What the great Hugh has done is to redefine a large number of
words so that they behave in a very restricted way to support the
great Hugh's version of Forth. Hugh's SYNONYM is not portable ANS
Forth unless you use Hugh's Forth. Bah, humbug. Another emperor
with no clothes.
Stephen
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 12:56:52 PM UTC-7, Gerry Jackson wrote:[missing attribution, undoubtedly HA]
Most likely they sabotaged my novice package to turn it into
non-working crap
to support their claim that I'm incompetent and they are Forth experts. Where have they made that claim, and who are 'they'? Claims without any evidence are worthless. What makes you think they even care about your competence?
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/T-yYkpVwYew/m/EdktVVJ7BAAJ
On Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 2:27:41 AM UTC-7, Stephen Pelc wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:28:18 -0700 (PDT), hughag...@gmail.com
wrote:
Pretty much every time that I write Forth code, somebody sinks into a pit
of shame because of their failure to write comparable Forth code.
Then they begin flinging lies at me --- they never escape from their pit
of shame --- they continue covering up their shame with lies for years
or decades...
Stephen Pelc is deeply ashamed because he made a Faustian Bargain<rant>
with Elizabeth Rather in which he is required to support ANS-Forth and
You, Gerry Jackson, are driven primarily by shame too. You are ashamed that you failed to write a SWITCH and had to plagiarize Michael Gassanenko's<rant>
Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan are ashamed because my rquotations work<rant>
Tom Hart and John Hart are driven primarily by shame too. They are ashamed<rant>
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 7:18:48 AM UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
Stephen Pelc is deeply ashamed because he made a Faustian Bargain<rant>
with Elizabeth Rather in which he is required to support ANS-Forth and
You, Gerry Jackson, are driven primarily by shame too. You are ashamed that >> you failed to write a SWITCH and had to plagiarize Michael Gassanenko's
<rant>
Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan are ashamed because my rquotations work
<rant>
Tom Hart and John Hart are driven primarily by shame too. They are ashamed<rant >
Being left out in a "Hugh rant" is somewhat like a "South park" episode that doesn't mention you. Somehow, you're a bit disappointed you've not been roasted. :)
Hans Bezemer
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 12:56:52 PM UTC-7, Gerry Jackson wrote:
Where have they made that claim, and who are 'they'? Claims without anyMost likely they sabotaged my novice package to turn it into
non-working crap
to support their claim that I'm incompetent and they are Forth experts.
evidence are worthless. What makes you think they even care about your
competence?
Obviously, "they" are the Forth-200x committee. It is their website where
He's best ignored. Responding to him is a total waste of time, it's like arguing with flat earthers, creationists or religious fundamentalists.
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 7:18:48 AM UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
Stephen Pelc is deeply ashamed because he made a Faustian Bargain<rant>
with Elizabeth Rather in which he is required to support ANS-Forth and
You, Gerry Jackson, are driven primarily by shame too. You are ashamed that<rant>
you failed to write a SWITCH and had to plagiarize Michael Gassanenko's
Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan are ashamed because my rquotations work<rant>
Tom Hart and John Hart are driven primarily by shame too. They are ashamed<rant>
Being left out in a "Hugh rant" is somewhat like a "South park" episode that doesn't mention you. Somehow, you're a bit disappointed you've not been roasted. :)
Hans Bezemer
On 03/03/2023 15:53, Hans Bezemer wrote:
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 7:18:48 AM UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:shame for something I/they haven't done. He won't even have looked at my
Stephen Pelc is deeply ashamed because he made a Faustian Bargain<rant>
with Elizabeth Rather in which he is required to support ANS-Forth and
You, Gerry Jackson, are driven primarily by shame too. You are ashamed that
you failed to write a SWITCH and had to plagiarize Michael Gassanenko's What a stupid comment and libellous assertion. How can I/others feel
or MLG's source code let alone compare them. He makes things up and then believes them to be true.
Well they're not archtroll Aguiliar's rquotations, they were invented by HumptyDumpty who is now being written out of the history - that's plagiarism. All Hugh Aguilar did was to extend it to handle locals, andAnton Ertl and Bernd Paysan are ashamed because my rquotations work
that was in assembler. So much for his assertion about the trouble he
took to make his Novice package ANS compliant.
that was in assembler. So much for his assertion about the trouble he
took to make his Novice package ANS compliant.
He's best ignored. Responding to him is a total waste of time, it's like arguing with flat earthers, creationists or religious fundamentalists.
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:51:03 PM UTC-7, Gerry Jackson wrote:
...
He's best ignored. Responding to him is a total waste of time, it's like
arguing with flat earthers, creationists or religious fundamentalists.
Gerry Jackson has no supporting evidence for his attack against me.
This is why he always descends to an ad-hominem attack in which he
accuses me of being utterly stupid (a flat-earther or religious fundamentalist).
Also, btw, I am a creationist.
I understand that life evolves over time, and that DNA/RNA is the
mechanism for this evolution because it carries information from one generation
to the next. It is obvious though, that DNA/RNA couldn't have evolved from a simpler mechanism for evolution because there is no simpler mechanism. DNA/RNA can't be both the mechanism for evolution and the product of evolution.
DNA/RNA had to be created artificially for the purpose of being the mechanism for evolution. This was done by somebody whose technical ability would be considered
god-like --- nobody knows who this was, or what the ultimate goal was --- this is
above our pay-grade.
I neglected to mention Hans Bezemer who is ashamed of the fact that
he doesn't know what Harvard Architecture is. He could have just asked
any bright fifteen-year-old to get the answer! Instead he spends years promoting his byte-code Forth compiler written in C and saying that it
is Harvard Architecture. WTF???
He doesn't even know that Harvard Architecture is a kind of
hardware implementation, not a software technique. His ignorance is
an embarrassment to the Forth community. Hans has been a clown for
his entire life, and will continue to be a clown forever because he can't learn.
Also, btw, I am a creationist.We'll add it to the list :)
I understand that life evolves over time, and that DNA/RNA is the
mechanism for this evolution because it carries information from one generation
to the next. It is obvious though, that DNA/RNA couldn't have evolved from a simpler mechanism for evolution because there is no simpler mechanism. DNA/RNA can't be both the mechanism for evolution and the product of evolution.
DNA/RNA had to be created artificially for the purpose of being the mechanism
for evolution. This was done by somebody whose technical ability would be considered
god-like --- nobody knows who this was, or what the ultimate goal was --- this is
above our pay-grade.
r over over r> swap >r dup swap drop swap over r> swap dup drop
r over over r> swap >r dup swap drop swap over r> swap over drop
r over over r> swap >r dup swap drop swap over r> swap
r over over r> swap >r dup swap drop swap over r> swap >r r>
Of what use is believing in a creator whose plan for you
is unknown? Looks like excess baggage to me.
To me and you - yes. According to Heidegger, we are "thrown
into this world" without reason or purpose. According to Camus
we should accept that life is absurd - and treat it like such.
In short, God is required as a "safe true world theory" to keep the masses in check, because the vast majority isn't able to achieve that higher
level of truth and morality. If God is lost, the masses will throw themselves
at true world theories (like communism and fascism) and we'll be far
worse of.
Some incidents in the 20th centuries might incline someone to concur
with him.
Hans Bezemer
Camus seems to have come to a similar conclusion as the Buddha.If you want that one, go shopping at Schopenhauer ;-)
"Life is suffering"
I really enjoyed that Hans. ThanksYou're welcome. I tend to agree with you, but I'm always inclined to
I wrote a bunch of other stuff but decided this was not the venue. ;-)
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:51:03 PM UTC-7, Gerry Jackson wrote:
On 03/03/2023 15:53, Hans Bezemer wrote:
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 7:18:48 AM UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:What a stupid comment and libellous assertion. How can I/others feel
Stephen Pelc is deeply ashamed because he made a Faustian Bargain<rant>
with Elizabeth Rather in which he is required to support ANS-Forth and
You, Gerry Jackson, are driven primarily by shame too. You are ashamed that
you failed to write a SWITCH and had to plagiarize Michael Gassanenko's
shame for something I/they haven't done. He won't even have looked at my
or MLG's source code let alone compare them. He makes things up and then
believes them to be true.
This isn't true.
I looked at MLG's code enough to see that you totally plagiarized it.
I also looked at it enough to see that it uses a bucket-sort,
so it can't be
upgraded to support a large sparse array by compacting the valid fields into a sorted array and then using a binary-search>
(what my SLOW-SWITCH> does).
MLG's code is only adequate for doing what my FAST-SWITCH> does.
Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan are ashamed because my rquotations work
I mentioned it once, you exaggerate it into 'so much flak'.Well they're not archtroll Aguiliar's rquotations, they were invented by
HumptyDumpty who is now being written out of the history - that's
plagiarism. All Hugh Aguilar did was to extend it to handle locals, and
that was in assembler. So much for his assertion about the trouble he
took to make his Novice package ANS compliant.
This isn't true either.
HumptyDumpty made a prototype that lacked the crucial feature of the rquotation accessing the parent function's local variables. Without this feature, rquotations are no better than Paysan-faked quotations, which
is to say --- worthless.
HumptyDumpty just did a proof-of-concept. His code had the advantage
that, although it was not ANS-Forth compliant, it was written in Forth and
it would work on almost all ANS-Forth systems.
I upgraded to assembly-language (both SwiftForth and VFX) so I could
provide the crucial feature of the rquotation accessing the parent function's local variables. I got so much flack from Gerry Jackson saying that I had plagiarized HumptyDumpty's code
that I later dropped HumptyDumpty's
return-stack manipulation and upgraded the VFX version to use something similar to an embedded :NONAME
so I no longer have any of HumptyDumpty's
code in my rquotations (I still have the name 'rquotation' though, which isn't
strictly accurate because the 'r' meant return-stack manipulation). I didn't bother
to upgrade the SwiftForth version in this way because I don't care about Forth Inc. (SwiftForth is abysmally inefficient). Note that my new rquotation implementation is similar to the Paysan-faked quotations in that it is essentially an embedded :NONAME --- but my rquotation implementation
still has the crucial feature that makes them useful --- the Paysan-faked quotations still lack this crucial feature and hence are still useless.
that was in assembler. So much for his assertion about the trouble he
took to make his Novice package ANS compliant.
This is not true either.
Gerry Jackson is implying that my entire novice-package depends upon
the rquotations that aren't ANS-Forth compliant because the implementation
is in assembly-language (VFX and SwiftForth). I don't depend upon the rquotations though. All of my data-structures continue to use the crude pseudo-quotation technique that I have been using since 2010. I continue
to use the crude tecnique despite having rquotations that have the crucial feature so my novice-package will continue to be ANS-Forth compliant.
The only non-trivial software that I have that uses the rquotations is my MSP430 assembler. This is only for my own use though --- I have no
intention of ever making this public --- I don't want it to be
"ripped to the last byte" (stolen).
He's best ignored. Responding to him is a total waste of time, it's like
arguing with flat earthers, creationists or religious fundamentalists.
Gerry Jackson has no supporting evidence for his attack against me.
This is why he always descends to an ad-hominem attack in which he
accuses me of being utterly stupid (a flat-earther or religious fundamentalist).
Also, btw, I am a creationist.
I understand that life evolves over time, and that DNA/RNA is the
mechanism for this evolution because it carries information from one generation
to the next. It is obvious though, that DNA/RNA couldn't have evolved from a simpler mechanism for evolution
because there is no simpler mechanism.
DNA/RNA can't be both the mechanism for evolution and the product of evolution.
DNA/RNA had to be created artificially for the purpose of being the mechanism for evolution. This was done by somebody whose technical ability would be considered
god-like --- nobody knows who this was, or what the ultimate goal was --- this is
above our pay-grade.
On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:27:56 PM UTC+1, Brian Fox wrote:
So - live life in an absurd way, like become an actor or actress.
On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 10:08:11 AM UTC-5, Hans Bezemer wrote:
On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:27:56 PM UTC+1, Brian Fox wrote:
So - live life in an absurd way, like become an actor or actress.
... or a Forth programmer! :-)))
On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 7:43:43 AM UTC+1, dxforth wrote:
Of what use is believing in a creator whose plan for you
is unknown? Looks like excess baggage to me.
To me and you - yes. According to Heidegger, we are "thrown
into this world" without reason or purpose. According to Camus
we should accept that life is absurd - and treat it like such.
But Nietzsche had quite another view. He lamented that we
"killed God", for most people actually need that sense of purpose.
[regarding Charles Moore walking away from ANS-Forth in 1989]
So that's two Forth standards - ANS and the previous one - he'd been
invited to join and walked away from. He wasn't rejecting ANS - he
was rejecting all standards. Moore created Forth. What need does
he have of standards - or of folks jumping up and down complaining
something isn't standard? None whatsoever. Don't know about you,
but I think that's a great place to be.
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 6:25:05 AM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
[regarding Charles Moore walking away from ANS-Forth in 1989]
So that's two Forth standards - ANS and the previous one - he'd been
invited to join and walked away from. He wasn't rejecting ANS - he
was rejecting all standards. Moore created Forth. What need does
he have of standards - or of folks jumping up and down complaining
something isn't standard? None whatsoever. Don't know about you,
but I think that's a great place to be.
This is pure bullshit! This is DXforth's ongoing stream of drivel
in which he says that any Forth standard puts his awesome creativity
in a box, and any Forth standard must be opposed.
Jeff Fox told me that Charles Moore was not opposed to having a
Forth standard, but he understood that Forth needed a standard.
Moore has given many speeches and interviews. The nearest I've seen him
come to advocating for a Forth standard is this:
"I'm vitally concerned you produce a good standard, but I cannot vote."
I'm unaware of Moore ever having produced a standard. All I've seen him
do is walk away from them.
I grew up worshiping Principia Mathematica 'till I learned how Goedel
refuted it.
Hans Bezemer <the.bee...@gmail.com> writes:
I grew up worshiping Principia Mathematica 'till I learned how Goedel refuted it.You mean incompleteness? Still, PM is magnificent, worthy of respect. My memory is that Goedel proved, basically, that in any non-trivial derivation system, there will always be symbol-sequences which, while true, are not derivable from any previously discovered list of truths. PM as a toolkit for working within the system of mathematics was perhaps overly disheartened by the proof.
You mean incompleteness? Still, PM is magnificent, worthy of respect. My memory is that Goedel proved, basically, that in any non-trivial derivation system, there will always be symbol-sequences which, while true, are not derivable from any previously discovered list of truths. PM as a toolkit for working within the system of mathematics was perhaps overly disheartened by the proof.I don't mean anything. It's a quote from Chuck Moore. I apologize for not marking
Andy Valencia schrieb am Dienstag, 7. März 2023 um 16:07:07 UTC+1:Iversons work is impressive. If Forth is known for its brevity you should take a look
Kenneth Iverson was definitely influenced by PM notation when he designed the symbol set of APL, one of the most influential (but unknown to the public)
programming languages for the finance industry until today. Its successors
J and K can be mind boggling.
Nobody will ever take Forth seriously without general-purpose data-structures.
and rquotations are crucial for this.
On 05/03/2023 04:27, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
I looked at MLG's code enough to see that you totally plagiarized it.You didn't look very closely then
I also looked at it enough to see that it uses a bucket-sort,From Wikipedia
<quote>Bucket sort, or bin sort, is a sorting algorithm that works by distributing the elements of an array into a number of buckets. Each
bucket is then sorted individually, either using a different sorting algorithm, or by recursively applying the bucket sorting algorithm.</quote>
It does not do a bucket sort. The application programmer sorts values
into buckets, if you insist on calling them that, by listing switch
values before a WHEN statement. Each of these values are associated with
the Forth code following WHEN. At the appropriate time the xt of the
WHEN code is set into an array of xts which is indexed by the switch
values multiplied by the number of bytes per cell. The xts are not
sorted. I wouldn't call saving the xts by index sorting the array, you might, but thats how all arrays are loaded and accessed by index.
so it can't beThat just demonstrates that you haven't looked at or understood the
upgraded to support a large sparse array by compacting the valid fields into
a sorted array and then using a binary-search>
code. Of course it can be 'upgraded' to make it suitable for a binary search. All that has to be done is to turn the xt array into an array of records where each record is a (switch value, xt). As the switch value (times record size) indexes the array that is a simple modification and
the array is already sorted. Then do a binary search on that.
All that has to be done is to turn the xt array into an array of
records where each record is a (switch value, xt). As the switch value (times record size) indexes the array that is a simple modification and
the array is already sorted."
I very much doubt that they are ashamedAnton Ertl and Bernd Paysan are ashamed because my rquotations work
Well they're not archtroll Aguiliar's rquotations, they were invented by >> HumptyDumpty who is now being written out of the history - that's
plagiarism. All Hugh Aguilar did was to extend it to handle locals, and >> that was in assembler. So much for his assertion about the trouble he
took to make his Novice package ANS compliant.
This isn't true either.I mentioned it once, you exaggerate it into 'so much flak'.
HumptyDumpty made a prototype that lacked the crucial feature of the rquotation accessing the parent function's local variables. Without this feature, rquotations are no better than Paysan-faked quotations, which
is to say --- worthless.
HumptyDumpty just did a proof-of-concept. His code had the advantage
that, although it was not ANS-Forth compliant, it was written in Forth and it would work on almost all ANS-Forth systems.
I upgraded to assembly-language (both SwiftForth and VFX) so I could provide the crucial feature of the rquotation accessing the parent function's
local variables. I got so much flack from Gerry Jackson saying that I had plagiarized HumptyDumpty's code
that I later dropped HumptyDumpty'sThat's the first I've heard of that.
return-stack manipulation and upgraded the VFX version to use something similar to an embedded :NONAME
On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 5:53:49 AM UTC-7, Stephen Pelc wrote:
On 19 Jan 2023 at 04:34:11 CET, "Hugh Aguilar" <hughag...@gmail.com>
wrote:
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash:
------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require >> DONOTSIN.
Stephen
...
You never said where exactly DoNotSin was supposed to be used.
I assumed that this
was after every word that contained POSTPONE LITERAL although you hadn't said so.
On 19 Jan 2023 at 04:34:11 CET, "Hugh Aguilar" <hughag...@gmail.com>
wrote:
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require DONOTSIN.
Stephen
On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 8:48:35 AM UTC-7, Gerry Jackson wrote:
On 05/03/2023 04:27, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
I looked at MLG's code enough to see that you totally plagiarized it.You didn't look very closely then
I also looked at it enough to see that it uses a bucket-sort,From Wikipedia
<quote>Bucket sort, or bin sort, is a sorting algorithm that works by
distributing the elements of an array into a number of buckets. Each
bucket is then sorted individually, either using a different sorting
algorithm, or by recursively applying the bucket sorting algorithm.</quote> >>
It does not do a bucket sort. The application programmer sorts values
into buckets, if you insist on calling them that, by listing switch
values before a WHEN statement. Each of these values are associated with
the Forth code following WHEN. At the appropriate time the xt of the
WHEN code is set into an array of xts which is indexed by the switch
values multiplied by the number of bytes per cell. The xts are not
sorted. I wouldn't call saving the xts by index sorting the array, you
might, but thats how all arrays are loaded and accessed by index.
so it can't beThat just demonstrates that you haven't looked at or understood the
upgraded to support a large sparse array by compacting the valid fields into
a sorted array and then using a binary-search>
code. Of course it can be 'upgraded' to make it suitable for a binary
search. All that has to be done is to turn the xt array into an array of
records where each record is a (switch value, xt). As the switch value
(times record size) indexes the array that is a simple modification and
the array is already sorted. Then do a binary search on that.
You really don't know what you are talking about!
You said:
All that has to be done is to turn the xt array into an array of
records where each record is a (switch value, xt). As the switch value
(times record size) indexes the array that is a simple modification and
the array is already sorted."
Your xt array, for 32-bit index values would be up to 16GB in size, because there are 4 bytes per vector on a 32-bit Forth. Of course, a 16GB array doesn't fit on a 32-bit computer --- unlikely to fit on a 64-bit computer either.
Are you really so dumb that you don't notice this problem???
dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
On 22/02/2023 3:33 am, Hugh Aguilar wrote:...
Here is another bug in VFX:
--------------------------------------
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok-2
2dup type 1234567892 ok-2
--------------------------------------
I have exactly this 'bug' in DX-Forth
Buggery loves company?
There are systems without this bug:
SwiftForth i386-Linux 3.11.0 23-Feb-2021
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok
2dup type 1234567890 ok
Gforth 0.7.9_20230209
...
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok 2
2dup type 1234567890 ok 2
OTOH:
SwiftForth x64-Linux 4.0.0-RC52 20-Sep-2022
: ttt ( n -- ) 0 <# #S #> ; ok
1234567890 ttt 2dup type 1234567890 ok
2dup type 1234567811 ok
(I have not checked more recent RCs).
ANS states data in the numeric output buffer is temporary
and subject to being overwritten.
No. What Forth-94 and Forth-2012 state is:
|The data space regions identified by PAD, WORD, and #> (the pictured |numeric output string buffer) may be transient. Their addresses and |contents may become invalid after:
|
| * a definition is created via a defining word;
| * definitions are compiled with : or :NONAME;
| * data space is allocated using ALLOT, , (comma), C, (c-comma), or ALIGN. |
|The previous contents of the regions identified by WORD and #> may be |invalid after each use of these words. Further, the regions returned
|by WORD and #> may overlap in memory. Consequently, use of one of
|these words can corrupt a region returned earlier by a different
|word. The other words that construct pictured numeric output strings
|(<#, #, #S, HOLD, HOLDS, XHOLD) may also modify the contents of these |regions. Words that display numbers may be implemented using pictured |numeric output words. Consequently, . (dot), .R, .S, ?, D., D.R, U.,
|U.R could also corrupt the regions.
None of these conditions happened here.
Some may argue that the
system may use one of the words that may overwrite the pictured
numeric output string buffer internally at any place, but that would
mean that the standard gives no guarantee at all about the contents of
the buffer, which would make <# # #S HOLD #> etc. unusable in standard programs; standardizing these words would make no sense.
...
I think, an omission is that while the word "WORD" is mentioned explicitly, text interpretation is not mentioned in the section 3.3.3.6.
On 26/03/2023 7:49 am, Ruvim wrote:
...
I think, an omission is that while the word "WORD" is mentioned explicitly, text interpretation is not mentioned in the section 3.3.3.6.
Some have taken the view that if a standard word hasn't been explicitly named in
3.3.3.6. then it is excluded. That's not how I read it.
"Words that display numbers may be implemented using pictured numeric output words."
is the general statement. It then goes on:
"Consequently, . (dot), .R, .S, ?, D., D.R, U., and U.R could also corrupt the regions."
"consequently" means 'it follows that'. The above were examples - not a formal list
to the exclusion of all others. It turns out DUMP and AT-XY are other words that
do 'number output'.
Since the word "WORD" is required, while "PARSE-NAME" is optional, a
system may use "WORD" doing text interpretation (in the same extent as
it may allocate data space on creating a definition). Also, it was a
common practice in 1994. Consequently, this region can be corrupted
doing text interpretation (namely, doing parsing).
On 26/03/2023 7:49 am, Ruvim wrote:
... I think, an omission is that while the word "WORD" is mentioned
explicitly, text interpretation is not mentioned in the section 3.3.3.6.
Some have taken the view that if a standard word hasn't been explicitly
named in 3.3.3.6. then it is excluded. That's not how I read it.
"Words that display numbers may be implemented using pictured numeric output words."
is the general statement. It then goes on:
"Consequently, . (dot), .R, .S, ?, D., D.R, U., and U.R could also corrupt the regions."
"consequently" means 'it follows that'. The above were examples - not a formal list to the exclusion of all others.
It turns out DUMP and AT-XY are other words that do 'number output'.
I have no particular interest in having AT-XY included in the
above list. If the standard wants certain words that do 'number output'
to *not* corrupt the numeric buffer then explicitly say so.
If it's imperative then it ought to be stated in the definition anyway.
Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> writes:
Since the word "WORD" is required, while "PARSE-NAME" is optional, a
system may use "WORD" doing text interpretation (in the same extent as
it may allocate data space on creating a definition). Also, it was a
common practice in 1994. Consequently, this region can be corrupted
doing text interpretation (namely, doing parsing).
That may or may not have been intended, but that's not what was stated.
Interestingly, looking at the tests for <# # #S HOLD SIGN #>, all of
them put all the hold buffer stuff (including the test of the result)
inside colon definitions, so they will not complain about a system
where the hold buffer is destroyed by text interpretation.
Let's see how systems fare:
123456789. <# #s #> type
123456789. <# #s #>
type
All of Gforth, iForth, lxf, SwiftForth 4.0.0-RC52, and VFX 64 5.11 RC2
output 123456789 twice when loading this from a file.
When cutting and pasting this into interactive text interpretation, we see the following:
1st output 2nd output
123456789 123456789 gforth
123456789 123456782 iforth
123456789 123456789 SwiftForth x64-Linux 4.0.0-RC52
123456789 123456782 VFX Forth 64 5.11 RC2
Pasting does not work properly with lxf, and I am too lazy to type
this stuff in again.
As the standard is currently written, iForth and VFX are buggy.
Someone could propose to allow text-interpretation to invalidate the
hold buffer, but IMO it's both less work and serves users better if
the maintainers of iForth and VFX just fixed that bug.
dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
On 26/03/2023 7:49 am, Ruvim wrote:
...
I think, an omission is that while the word "WORD" is mentioned explicitly, text interpretation is not mentioned in the section 3.3.3.6.
Some have taken the view that if a standard word hasn't been explicitly named in
3.3.3.6. then it is excluded. That's not how I read it.
"Words that display numbers may be implemented using pictured numeric output words."
is the general statement. It then goes on:
"Consequently, . (dot), .R, .S, ?, D., D.R, U., and U.R could also corrupt the regions."
"consequently" means 'it follows that'. The above were examples - not a formal list
to the exclusion of all others. It turns out DUMP and AT-XY are other words that
do 'number output'.
DUMP yes: Not only does it say "Display ...", and the sentence you
cited mentions "display numbers", but actually it explicitly says:
|DUMP may be implemented using pictured numeric output
|words. Consequently, its use may corrupt the transient region
|identified by #>.
By contrast, AT-XY does not display numbers,
So the standard does not give
systems license for implementing AT-XY in a way that destroys the hold buffer.
On 17/03/2023 12:19 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 5:53:49 AM UTC-7, Stephen Pelc wrote:
On 19 Jan 2023 at 04:34:11 CET, "Hugh Aguilar" <hughag...@gmail.com>
wrote:
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash:
------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require
DONOTSIN.
Stephen
..."For the moment define LIT, as" seems clear enough.
You never said where exactly DoNotSin was supposed to be used.
I assumed that thisGenius
was after every word that contained POSTPONE LITERAL although you hadn't said so.
Hugh's wonderful disambiguifiers do NOT do what the great Hugh thinks
they do. What the great Hugh has done is to redefine a large number of
words so that they behave in a very restricted way to support the
great Hugh's version of Forth. Hugh's SYNONYM is not portable ANS
Forth unless you use Hugh's Forth. Bah, humbug. Another emperor
with no clothes.
Hugh Aguilar <hugoa...@rosycrew.com> writes:
I don't understand how a word can not have execution semantics.
...
I looked up ['] in the ANS-Forth document and it says:
"Place name's execution token xt on the stack."What's the execution token of a word that has no execution semantics.
Hmm, since you think that ";" is immediate, I guess you want an
execution token that, when executed, performs the compilation
semantics. You can get that as follows. Before the rest of the
program, define:
: ; postpone ; ; immediate
Now you have an immediate ";" with an execution semantics that's the
same as the compilation semantics, and you can tick it.
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 6:56:47 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 17/03/2023 12:19 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 5:53:49 AM UTC-7, Stephen Pelc wrote: >>>> On 19 Jan 2023 at 04:34:11 CET, "Hugh Aguilar" <hughag...@gmail.com>"For the moment define LIT, as" seems clear enough.
wrote:
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash:
------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require
DONOTSIN.
Stephen
...
You never said where exactly DoNotSin was supposed to be used.
I assumed that thisGenius
was after every word that contained POSTPONE LITERAL although you hadn't said so.
The super-sycophant DXforth says that I'm too stupid to follow Stephen Pelc's simple instruction to put DoNotSin after the definition of LIT, in my novice package.
Lets see how well this works out in the following ANS-Forth code that crashes VFX:
On 2023-03-26 09:21, Anton Ertl wrote:[...]
Someone could propose to allow text-interpretation to invalidate the
hold buffer, but IMO it's both less work and serves users better if
the maintainers of iForth and VFX just fixed that bug.
I would suggest to add explicitly "text interpretation" into 3.3.3.6
(i.e., fix the omission), and on the next iteration exclude both the
word "WORD" and text interpretation from 3.3.3.6.
Namely, replace:
| Consequently, use of one of these words can corrupt
| a region returned earlier by a different word.
by:
| Consequently, use of one of these words can corrupt
| a region returned earlier by a different word, and text
| interpretation can corrupt the region identified by #>.
And on the next iteration remove this connection of "WORD" and "#>" at
all (the corresponding regions will no longer be allowed to overlap in memory).
Or just remove this connection of "WORD" and "#>" from 3.3.3.6 at once.
I believe, "text interpretation" and "WORD" should be either *both*
present or *both* absent in this connection with "#>" to avoid a confusion.
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 6:56:47 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 17/03/2023 12:19 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 5:53:49 AM UTC-7, Stephen Pelc wrote:
On 19 Jan 2023 at 04:34:11 CET, "Hugh Aguilar" <hughag...@gmail.com>
wrote:
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash:
------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require
DONOTSIN.
Stephen
The super-sycophant DXforth says that I'm too stupid to follow Stephen Pelc's..."For the moment define LIT, as" seems clear enough.
You never said where exactly DoNotSin was supposed to be used.
I assumed that thisGenius
was after every word that contained POSTPONE LITERAL although you hadn't said so.
simple instruction to put DoNotSin after the definition of LIT, in my novice package.
Lets see how well this works out in the following ANS-Forth code that crashes VFX:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
: if
state @ 0= if cr ." WARNING: *** no interpretation semantics for: IF ***" cr then postpone if ;
immediate
: test ( -- )
dup 99 = if drop 88 then ;
\ DoNotSin
: test-test ( -- )
cr 99 test .
cr 77 test .
;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- This code works fine without the IF disambiguifier, but with the IF disambiguifier,
TEST-TEST crashes when it gets to the IF that is immediate.
Stephen Pelc has sabotaged VFX to prevent it from compiling ANS-Forth code. Putting DoNotSin after the definition of TEST undoes the sabotage.
I only have a hundred words in the novice package that use IF internally, so it
should only take me a few days to make IF work again. I have 51 disambiguifiers
though, so if Stephen Pelc sabotaged all of them, then he has defeated me!
Stephen Pelc is deeply ashamed of the fact that he had to lie about the disambiguifiers.
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/T-yYkpVwYew/m/EdktVVJ7BAAJ Here is the liar Stephen Pelc disgracing himself in public:
Hugh's wonderful disambiguifiers do NOT do what the great Hugh thinks
they do. What the great Hugh has done is to redefine a large number of words so that they behave in a very restricted way to support the
great Hugh's version of Forth. Hugh's SYNONYM is not portable ANS
Forth unless you use Hugh's Forth. Bah, humbug. Another emperor
with no clothes.
Stephen Pelc had to lie about the disambiguifiers because he sold his soul to Elizabeth Rather. The purpose of ANS-Forth was to declare UR/Forth to be non-standard by fiat. She could have declared everything from MPE to be non-standard too, and crushed MPE under her jack-boot just as she crushed LMI that was dominating the Forth market with UR/Forth. But MPE survived! She allowed MPE to survive because Forth Inc. needed somebody to write
Forth code for them due to Forth Inc. having awesome marketing but no technical staff. So Stephen Pelc sold his soul for MPE to be allowed to survive.
This is why, decades later, Stephen Pelc can't admit that the disambiguifiers
fix FIND and tick in ANS-Forth because doing so would require him to admit that FIND and tick are broken in ANS-Forth, which would require him to admit that the ANS-Forth committee knew nothing about Forth programming.
Stephen Pelc lied when he said that the disambiguifiers don't work.
So now he sabotages VFX to prevent the disambiguifiers from working,
but this sabotage can be undone with the DoNotSin patch.
Why did Stephen Pelc provide the DoNotSin bug-fix patch?
One reason is that I'm not the only Forth programmer who knows about
the disambiguifiers and uses them to fix FIND and tick in ANS-Forth.
It was Anton Ertl who told me about the disambiguifiers: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/wP5nw1ClzsM/m/E-TV9v2y9RoJ
On Thursday, November 26, 2009 at 3:24:06 AM UTC-7, Anton Ertl wrote:
Hugh Aguilar <hugoa...@rosycrew.com> writes:
I don't understand how a word can not have execution semantics.
...
I looked up ['] in the ANS-Forth document and it says:
"Place name's execution token xt on the stack."What's the execution token of a word that has no execution semantics.
Hmm, since you think that ";" is immediate, I guess you want an
execution token that, when executed, performs the compilation
semantics. You can get that as follows. Before the rest of the
program, define:
: ; postpone ; ; immediate
Now you have an immediate ";" with an execution semantics that's the
same as the compilation semantics, and you can tick it.
Also, I have noticed that Bernd Paysan uses a disambiguifier in his
Mini-OOF implementation to make FIND and tick work for one of the
51 ambiguous words in ANS-Forth that FIND and tick don't work on.
So, if Mini-OOF is going to work under VFX, and this is a disambiguifier that was sabotaged in VFX, Bernd Paysan the great and powerful Forth-200x committee member, will need to put DoNotSin in Mini-OOF for VFX to work. Bernd Paysan will look like a clown when he explains to his Mini-OOF users that VFX was sabotaged to prevent the disambiguifiers in my novice package from working, but DoNotSin is needed to make the disambiguifiers work in authorized ANS-Forth software such as Mini-OOF --- by "authorized" it is meant
anything written by a Forth-200x committee member.
On Sunday, 26 March 2023 at 17:57:38 UTC+1, Hugh Aguilar wrote:they revert to non-member status. An observer will not normally be allowed to vote, but may be allowed at the discretion of the committee. A member will be deemed to have resigned from the committee if they fail to attend two consecutive voting meetings.
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 6:56:47 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 17/03/2023 12:19 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 5:53:49 AM UTC-7, Stephen Pelc wrote:
On 19 Jan 2023 at 04:34:11 CET, "Hugh Aguilar" <hughag...@gmail.com> >> wrote:
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: >>> ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require
DONOTSIN.
Stephen
The super-sycophant DXforth says that I'm too stupid to follow Stephen Pelc's..."For the moment define LIT, as" seems clear enough.
You never said where exactly DoNotSin was supposed to be used.
I assumed that thisGenius
was after every word that contained POSTPONE LITERAL although you hadn't said so.
simple instruction to put DoNotSin after the definition of LIT, in my novice package.
Lets see how well this works out in the following ANS-Forth code that crashes VFX:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- : if
state @ 0= if cr ." WARNING: *** no interpretation semantics for: IF ***" cr
then postpone if ;
immediate
: test ( -- )
dup 99 = if drop 88 then ;
\ DoNotSin
: test-test ( -- )
cr 99 test .
cr 77 test .
; -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This code works fine without the IF disambiguifier, but with the IF disambiguifier,
TEST-TEST crashes when it gets to the IF that is immediate.
Stephen Pelc has sabotaged VFX to prevent it from compiling ANS-Forth code.
Putting DoNotSin after the definition of TEST undoes the sabotage.
I only have a hundred words in the novice package that use IF internally, so it
should only take me a few days to make IF work again. I have 51 disambiguifiers
though, so if Stephen Pelc sabotaged all of them, then he has defeated me!
Stephen Pelc is deeply ashamed of the fact that he had to lie about the disambiguifiers.
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/T-yYkpVwYew/m/EdktVVJ7BAAJ Here is the liar Stephen Pelc disgracing himself in public:
Hugh's wonderful disambiguifiers do NOT do what the great Hugh thinks they do. What the great Hugh has done is to redefine a large number of words so that they behave in a very restricted way to support the
great Hugh's version of Forth. Hugh's SYNONYM is not portable ANS
Forth unless you use Hugh's Forth. Bah, humbug. Another emperor
with no clothes.
Stephen Pelc had to lie about the disambiguifiers because he sold his soul to Elizabeth Rather. The purpose of ANS-Forth was to declare UR/Forth to be
non-standard by fiat. She could have declared everything from MPE to be non-standard too, and crushed MPE under her jack-boot just as she crushed LMI that was dominating the Forth market with UR/Forth. But MPE survived! She allowed MPE to survive because Forth Inc. needed somebody to write Forth code for them due to Forth Inc. having awesome marketing but no technical staff. So Stephen Pelc sold his soul for MPE to be allowed to survive.
This is why, decades later, Stephen Pelc can't admit that the disambiguifiers
fix FIND and tick in ANS-Forth because doing so would require him to admit that FIND and tick are broken in ANS-Forth, which would require him to admit
that the ANS-Forth committee knew nothing about Forth programming.
Stephen Pelc lied when he said that the disambiguifiers don't work.
So now he sabotages VFX to prevent the disambiguifiers from working,
but this sabotage can be undone with the DoNotSin patch.
Why did Stephen Pelc provide the DoNotSin bug-fix patch?
One reason is that I'm not the only Forth programmer who knows about
the disambiguifiers and uses them to fix FIND and tick in ANS-Forth.
It was Anton Ertl who told me about the disambiguifiers: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/wP5nw1ClzsM/m/E-TV9v2y9RoJ
On Thursday, November 26, 2009 at 3:24:06 AM UTC-7, Anton Ertl wrote:
Hugh Aguilar <hugoa...@rosycrew.com> writes:
I don't understand how a word can not have execution semantics.
...
I looked up ['] in the ANS-Forth document and it says:
"Place name's execution token xt on the stack."What's the execution token of a word that has no execution semantics. Hmm, since you think that ";" is immediate, I guess you want an execution token that, when executed, performs the compilation
semantics. You can get that as follows. Before the rest of the
program, define:
: ; postpone ; ; immediate
Now you have an immediate ";" with an execution semantics that's the same as the compilation semantics, and you can tick it.
Also, I have noticed that Bernd Paysan uses a disambiguifier in his Mini-OOF implementation to make FIND and tick work for one of theWhy do you not stop telling lies about the Forth people here.
51 ambiguous words in ANS-Forth that FIND and tick don't work on.
So, if Mini-OOF is going to work under VFX, and this is a disambiguifier that was sabotaged in VFX, Bernd Paysan the great and powerful Forth-200x committee member, will need to put DoNotSin in Mini-OOF for VFX to work. Bernd Paysan will look like a clown when he explains to his Mini-OOF users that VFX was sabotaged to prevent the disambiguifiers in my novice package from working, but DoNotSin is needed to make the disambiguifiers work in authorized ANS-Forth software such as Mini-OOF --- by "authorized" it is meant
anything written by a Forth-200x committee member.
The ones here for longer know you as the
FORTH KILLER
The new ones should see what you are trying to do.
Get back to your plumbing job,
or drive your taxi.
STOP INSULTING PEOPLE HERE.
You should recognize the facts - or you might be mentally not capable to do so.
https://forth-standard.org/standard/members-2x
Membership
This document is maintained by the Forth 200x Standards Committee. The committee meetings are open to the public, anybody is allowed to join the committee in its deliberations.
Membership of the committee is open to anybody who can attend. On attending a meeting of any kind a non-member becomes an observing member (observer). If they attend the next voting meeting, they will become a voting member of the committee, otherwise
Currently the committee has the following voting members:
Dr. M. Anton Ertl (Chair) Technische Universität Wien
Wien, Austria
Dr. Peter Knaggs (Editor) Independent Member
Trowbridge, UK
Willem Botha Construction Computer Software (Pty) Ltd
Cape Town, South Africa
Andrew Haley Red Hat UK Ltd.
Cambridge, UK
Dr. Ulrich Hoffmann FH Wedel
Wedel, Germany
Simon Kaphahn Independent Member
Munich, Germany
Bernd Paysan Net2o
Munich, Germany
Stephen Pelc MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd.
Southampton, UK
Dr. Willi Stricker Independent Member
Springe, Germany
Leon Wagner FORTH, Inc.
Los Angeles, USA
Gerald Wodni Independent Member
Wien, Austria
The following organizations and individuals have also participated in this project as committee members. The committee recognizes and respects their contributions:
Federico de Ceballos Universidad de Cantabria
Santander, Spain
Dr. Bill Stoddart Teesside University
Middlesbrough, UK
Carsten Strotmann Independent Member
Neuenkirchen, Germany
On 2023-03-26 11:40, Ruvim wrote:
On 2023-03-26 09:21, Anton Ertl wrote:[...]
Someone could propose to allow text-interpretation to invalidate the
hold buffer, but IMO it's both less work and serves users better if
the maintainers of iForth and VFX just fixed that bug.
I would suggest to add explicitly "text interpretation" into 3.3.3.6
(i.e., fix the omission), and on the next iteration exclude both the
word "WORD" and text interpretation from 3.3.3.6.
Namely, replace:
| Consequently, use of one of these words can corrupt
| a region returned earlier by a different word.
by:
| Consequently, use of one of these words can corrupt
| a region returned earlier by a different word, and text
| interpretation can corrupt the region identified by #>.
And on the next iteration remove this connection of "WORD" and "#>" at
all (the corresponding regions will no longer be allowed to overlap in
memory).
Or just remove this connection of "WORD" and "#>" from 3.3.3.6 at once.
I believe, "text interpretation" and "WORD" should be either *both*
present or *both* absent in this connection with "#>" to avoid a confusion.
Can anybody provide an example of a Forth-94 or Forth-2012 compliance
Forth system, in which the regions returned by "WORD" and "#>" are
overlapped in memory? [1]
[1] See: https://forth-standard.org/standard/usage#usage:transient
--
Ruvim
As the standard is currently written, iForth and VFX are buggy.
Someone could propose to allow text-interpretation to invalidate the
hold buffer, but IMO it's both less work and serves users better if
the maintainers of iForth and VFX just fixed that bug.
Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> writes:
Since the word "WORD" is required, while "PARSE-NAME" is optional, a
system may use "WORD" doing text interpretation (in the same extent as
it may allocate data space on creating a definition). Also, it was a
common practice in 1994. Consequently, this region can be corrupted
doing text interpretation (namely, doing parsing).
That may or may not have been intended, but that's not what was stated.
Interestingly, looking at the tests for <# # #S HOLD SIGN #>, all of
them put all the hold buffer stuff (including the test of the result)
inside colon definitions, so they will not complain about a system
where the hold buffer is destroyed by text interpretation.
Let's see how systems fare:
123456789. <# #s #> type
123456789. <# #s #>
type
All of Gforth, iForth, lxf, SwiftForth 4.0.0-RC52, and VFX 64 5.11 RC2
output 123456789 twice when loading this from a file.
When cutting and pasting this into interactive text interpretation, we see the following:
1st output 2nd output
123456789 123456789 gforth
123456789 123456782 iforth
123456789 123456789 SwiftForth x64-Linux 4.0.0-RC52
123456789 123456782 VFX Forth 64 5.11 RC2
Pasting does not work properly with lxf, and I am too lazy to type
this stuff in again.
As the standard is currently written, iForth and VFX are buggy.
Someone could propose to allow text-interpretation to invalidate the
hold buffer, but IMO it's both less work and serves users better if
the maintainers of iForth and VFX just fixed that bug.
Can anybody provide an example of a Forth-94 or Forth-2012 compliance
Forth system, in which the regions returned by "WORD" and "#>" are
overlapped in memory? [1]
On 26/03/2023 8:21 pm, Anton Ertl wrote:
As the standard is currently written, iForth and VFX are buggy.ANS-Forth was meant to reflect the reality of existing forth systems
of the day - not invent a new reality.
The FIG traditional use is to have PAD offset from HERE, f.i. 256 bytes (word string) and some extra 128 ( printing a double precision in binary) Numbers grow down from PAD. WORD fill up the region from [HERE .. PAD]
from below, and number build-up fill from the top.
These could clash in case that are especially constructed, but this is contrived.
ciforth follows that transition and could possibly be an example.
Ruvim <ruvim...@gmail.com> writes:
Can anybody provide an example of a Forth-94 or Forth-2012 compliance >Forth system, in which the regions returned by "WORD" and "#>" are >overlapped in memory? [1]In early Gforth they grow into each other, but the size of the
combined buffer is the sum of the sizes that the standard guarantees
for each buffer; so a standard program (in this case standard wrt. not needing more of these buffers than the standard guarantees) will not
see the overlap.
In particular, in Gforth 0.3.0 on a 32-bit system the combined WORD
and hold buffer has 100 bytes (good for 32 bytes of WORD result and 68
bytes of hold buffer). Now if you exceed one of the limits, you see
the overlap:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:53:41 AM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
On 26/03/2023 8:21 pm, Anton Ertl wrote:
As the standard is currently written, iForth and VFX are buggy.ANS-Forth was meant to reflect the reality of existing forth systems
of the day - not invent a new reality.
To say that ANS-Forth reflected the reality of existing Forth systems is
an insult to all Forth programmers because it implies mental retardation. DXforth is lying! This is just more of his usual stream of anti-standard drivel in which he says that because ANS-Forth is retarded, any Forth standard must be retarded too.
UR/Forth dominated the Forth world in the early 1990s. It was the only
Forth system available that was capable of professional use.
On 26/03/2023 8:21 pm, Anton Ertl wrote:
When cutting and pasting this into interactive text interpretation, we see the following:
1st output 2nd output
123456789 123456789 gforth
123456789 123456782 iforth
123456789 123456789 SwiftForth x64-Linux 4.0.0-RC52
123456789 123456782 VFX Forth 64 5.11 RC2
Pasting does not work properly with lxf, and I am too lazy to type
this stuff in again.
As the standard is currently written, iForth and VFX are buggy.
ANS-Forth was meant to reflect the reality of existing forth systems
of the day - not invent a new reality. Either the Standard failed
in its task, or you have interpreted it incorrectly.
Someone could propose to allow text-interpretation to invalidate the
hold buffer, but IMO it's both less work and serves users better if
the maintainers of iForth and VFX just fixed that bug.
Did you survey users that you speak for them?
Less work for whom?
dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
On 26/03/2023 8:21 pm, Anton Ertl wrote:
When cutting and pasting this into interactive text interpretation, we see the following:
1st output 2nd output
123456789 123456789 gforth
123456789 123456782 iforth
123456789 123456789 SwiftForth x64-Linux 4.0.0-RC52
123456789 123456782 VFX Forth 64 5.11 RC2
Pasting does not work properly with lxf, and I am too lazy to type
this stuff in again.
As the standard is currently written, iForth and VFX are buggy.
ANS-Forth was meant to reflect the reality of existing forth systems
of the day - not invent a new reality. Either the Standard failed
in its task, or you have interpreted it incorrectly.
Or the Forth systems of the day did not have this bug, and it was
introduced later.
Someone could propose to allow text-interpretation to invalidate the
hold buffer, but IMO it's both less work and serves users better if
the maintainers of iForth and VFX just fixed that bug.
Did you survey users that you speak for them?
My statement is based on the notion that it serves the users if they
are able to interactively test code, including code that uses the hold buffer. Many people, including Forth system vendors like Elizabeth
Rather, have repeatedly pointed to interactive testing as one of the
big advantages of Forth. Do you think that they are wrong, and that
Forth users don't care for this feature?
On 28/03/2023 4:53 pm, Anton Ertl wrote:
dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
On 26/03/2023 8:21 pm, Anton Ertl wrote:
...When cutting and pasting this into interactive text interpretation, we see the following:
1st output 2nd output
123456789 123456789 gforth
123456789 123456782 iforth
123456789 123456789 SwiftForth x64-Linux 4.0.0-RC52
123456789 123456782 VFX Forth 64 5.11 RC2
My statement is based on the notion that it serves the users if they
are able to interactively test code, including code that uses the hold
buffer. Many people, including Forth system vendors like Elizabeth
Rather, have repeatedly pointed to interactive testing as one of the
big advantages of Forth. Do you think that they are wrong, and that
Forth users don't care for this feature?
How is splitting #> TYPE across lines a feature?
type
Other than Hugh and
yourself, I don't know any users who insist it should work. I imagine
most users have attempted to split >R ... R> across lines and found it >fails miserably.
.
On the
contrary, they're inspired to find out why it doesn't work leading to a >better understanding of forth.
No - nor
has any user asked me.
On 28/03/2023 4:53 pm, Anton Ertl wrote:[...]
dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
On 26/03/2023 8:21 pm, Anton Ertl wrote:
Someone could propose to allow text-interpretation to invalidate the
hold buffer, but IMO it's both less work and serves users better if
the maintainers of iForth and VFX just fixed that bug.
Did you survey users that you speak for them?
My statement is based on the notion that it serves the users if they
are able to interactively test code, including code that uses the hold
buffer. Many people, including Forth system vendors like Elizabeth
Rather, have repeatedly pointed to interactive testing as one of the
big advantages of Forth. Do you think that they are wrong, and that
Forth users don't care for this feature?
How is splitting #> TYPE across lines a feature?
dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
...
Other than Hugh and
yourself, I don't know any users who insist it should work. I imagine
most users have attempted to split >R ... R> across lines and found it
fails miserably.
Really? I just tried
1234 >r
.
on development Gforth and it outputs "1234". See
@Misc{ef2019:rs-int,
author = {M. Anton Ertl},
title = {Interactive multiline \code{>R R>} in {Gforth}},
howpublished = {https://wiki.forth-ev.de/doku.php/events:ef2019:rs-int},
year = {2019},
note = {Video of otherwise unpublished talk at EuroForth 2019}
}
If you support interactive use of >R R> at all, it's better to do it
across lines. Why should a user who wants to test a program that has
the >R on one line and the R> on another one have to jump through
hoops for interactive testing of this code (supposedly a forte of
Forth).
If the regions identified by "#>" and "WORD" are overlapped, and the Forth text interpreter employs this "WORD", your example can fail even in a single line. Since, when the system extracts the lexeme "TYPE", in some cases it can place this lexeme asa counted string into the region identified by "#>".
"WORD" can be used in a user-defined text interpreter. So, if the system's text interpreter does not affect the hold buffer, "WORD" should not affect it to.
Therefore, "WORD" should have been untangled with the pictured numeric output words, I think.
How is splitting #> TYPE across lines a feature?If the regions identified by "#>" and "WORD" are overlapped, and the
Forth text interpreter employs this "WORD", your example can fail even
in a single line. Since, when the system extracts the lexeme "TYPE", in
some cases it can place this lexeme as a counted string into the region identified by "#>".
"WORD" can be used in a user-defined text interpreter. So, if the
system's text interpreter does not affect the hold buffer, "WORD" should
not affect it to.
Therefore, "WORD" should have been untangled with the pictured numeric output words, I think.
type" returns in 4tH exactly what it is supposed to return. But that isbecause all white space is treated equal while compiling - and because
...
The only time I was confronted with this problem was when I was
examining the HOLD buffer while performing some debugging. Sure,
whatever .S produced came out wrong. I clearly remember calling myself
stupid at that time.
On 25 Feb 2023 at 07:20:23 CET, "dxforth" <dxf...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 25/02/2023 4:07 pm, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
Are you planning on describing this bug fix publicly?
More likely, you will provide the bug fix only to the verklempt worms --- >> your sycophants.
When may we expect your fix for the f/p output bug in the novice pack?I'm not touching the novice code. That's for Hugh and his sycophants.
Saying that I have sycophants is absurd. I don't provide the novice package to anybody anymore because all of your sycophants attack it on c.l.f..
Now you are the Worm God --- all of the verklempt worms rise up out
of the mud and wriggle in ecstasy for their "cute" god. lol
On 19 Jan 2023 at 04:34:11 CET, "Hugh Aguilar" <hughag...@gmail.com>
wrote:
The bug is that this ANS-Forth compliant code causes VFX to crash: ------------------------------------------
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ;
------------------------------------------
For the moment define LIT, as
: lit, ( val -- ) \ runtime: -- val
postpone literal ; doNotSin
An upcoming version of VFX may/will use a different fix and will not require DONOTSIN.
Stephen
This probably reflects common practice in 90s, that text interpretation >corrupted the hold buffer.
Then we should admit that missing "text
interpretation" in the section 3.3.3.6 is an omission.
I would suggest to add explicitly "text interpretation" into 3.3.3.6
(i.e., fix the omission), and on the next iteration exclude both the
word "WORD" and text interpretation from 3.3.3.6.
I believe, "text interpretation" and "WORD" should be either *both*
present or *both* absent in this connection with "#>" to avoid a confusion.
On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:29:32 PM UTC+1, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
Any use of VFX is stopped now because Stephen Pelc can't be trusted to maintainOk - THINK! Because he can introduce bugs in other peoples code too, do you think this
ANS-Forth compatibility. He purposely introduces a bug in LIT, to break my novice package, but he risks breaking other people's ANS-Forth code too.
is clever behavior for a vendor? Somebody whose livelihood literally DEPENDS on people
buying his product?
nobody will ever notice or care that VFX has been sabotaged to not compile ANS-Forth code --- because they aren't writing ANS-Forth code at my level.
On 15/03/2023 00:37, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
You really don't know what you are talking about!
You said:
All that has to be done is to turn the xt array into an array of
records where each record is a (switch value, xt). As the switch value
(times record size) indexes the array that is a simple modification and >> the array is already sorted."
Your xt array, for 32-bit index values would be up to 16GB in size, becauseI think you're being deliberately obtuse in making that statement. It is obvious that my revised array of records would NOT include invalid
there are 4 bytes per vector on a 32-bit Forth. Of course, a 16GB array doesn't fit on a 32-bit computer --- unlikely to fit on a 64-bit computer either.
Are you really so dumb that you don't notice this problem???
switch values. E.g. if, say, the valid signed maximum and minimum switch values were MAXINT and MININT respectively with, say, 5 other well
separated values, the array would only have 7 records in it. Other
values would not be found when searched for. Or are you too dumb to see that?
On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 10:38:26 AM UTC-7, Gerry Jackson wrote:
On 15/03/2023 00:37, Hugh Aguilar wrote:
You really don't know what you are talking about!
You said:
All that has to be done is to turn the xt array into an array of
records where each record is a (switch value, xt). As the switch value >> (times record size) indexes the array that is a simple modification and >> the array is already sorted."
Your xt array, for 32-bit index values would be up to 16GB in size, becauseI think you're being deliberately obtuse in making that statement. It is obvious that my revised array of records would NOT include invalid
there are 4 bytes per vector on a 32-bit Forth. Of course, a 16GB array doesn't fit on a 32-bit computer --- unlikely to fit on a 64-bit computer either.
Are you really so dumb that you don't notice this problem???
switch values. E.g. if, say, the valid signed maximum and minimum switch values were MAXINT and MININT respectively with, say, 5 other well separated values, the array would only have 7 records in it. Other
values would not be found when searched for. Or are you too dumb to see that?
Gerry Jackson doesn't understand how Michael Gassenenko's switch works.
He says that the array is "already sorted." Really??? When did it get sorted?
How did it get sorted? The Bucket Sort is obviously not going to work!
Anyway, I wrote another assembler. Stephen Pelc will hate this news!
Stephen Pelc really self-destructed when he found out that I wrote an
MSP430 assembler --- he sabotaged his own VFX to thwart my assembler! Stephen Pelc has his DoNotSin bug-fix to undo this sabotage.
The Worm God on his throne of mud says that I'm a sinner!
Should I go to the Worm Church to confess that I wrote an MSP430 assembler? In the Middle Ages I would have been burned at the stake for writing
an MSP430 assembler.
Anyway, my new assembler is for a different processor. This includes a simulator.
I used both FAST-SWITCH> and SLOW-SWITCH> despite the fact that
Gerry Jackson says that I'm too dumb to understand how SLOW-SWITCH> works. This is documentation for my switch code: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documentation for FAST-SWITCH> and SLOW-SWITCH> in LIST.4TH
of the novice package --- this is ANS-Forth --- (c) Hugh Aguilar
The basic operation is this:
<SWITCH
:NONAME drop ... ; targ CASE-OF
...
:NONAME drop ... ; FAST-SWITCH> xxx ( selector -- )
The XXX is the name of the function being created.
The DROP in the :NONAME function gets rid of the selector-value.
You might need this sometimes though.
The last :NONAME before FAST-SWITCH> is the default action done if
no match was found. In many applications this indicates a bug so this :NONAME function will abort and will not DROP the value but will
display it so the user can know what invalid selector got used.
There can be thousands of CASE-OF statements.
They don't have to be in any particular order.
Building the table is faster if they are pretty much in reverse order.
I'm using an insertion sort which is slow. I did this so that I would
find any duplicates immediately and would be able to abort on the
offending line so the user would know exactly where the duplicate was.
Note that Michael Gassenenko's CHOOSE doesn't tell where the duplicate
was. The slowness is at compile-time, so it doesn't matter very much (compiling the assembler/simulator for my processor takes 17 seconds). Duplicates are illegal, although duplicates are allowed in ANS-Forth's
goofy CASE construct that just does a sequential search.
We have a VALUE called JT-LIMIT that sets the limit of the size of
a FAST-SWITCH> jump-table. Note that the FAST-SWITCH> jump-table is a
sparse array, so the number of selectors could be significantly less
than the size of the jump-table. JT-LIMIT is currently set at 2^16 to
allow simulation of a processor with 16-bit opcodes. The user can
change JT-LIMIT. If there are more selectors than JT-LIMIT allows or
the user just wants to use less memory, SLOW-SWITCH> can be used
instead of FAST-SWITCH>. This will build a packed sorted table and at run-time will do a binary search. This packed table is usually smaller
than a FAST-SWITCH> sparse table, but if over half of the posible
selectors are represented, then the SLOW-SWITCH> table will not only
be slower but will also use more memory.
It is possible to assign a :NONAME action to multiple selectors:
:NONAME drop ... ; low-targ high-targ RANGE-OF
:NONAME drop ... ; ." xxx" CHARS-OF
:NONAME drop ... ; <WHEN ... WHEN>
:NONAME drop ... ; DIGIT-OF
:NONAME drop ... ; LOWER-OF
:NONAME drop ... ; UPPER-OF
:NONAME drop ... ; ALPHA-OF
:NONAME drop ... ; PUNCTUATION-OF
:NONAME drop ... ; BLANK-OF
RANGE-OF matches all of the values from LOW-TARG to HIGH-TARG
inclusive. CHARS-OF matches all of the chars in the string.
<WHEN ... WHEN> matches all of the values between <WHEN and WHEN>
(the ... means zero or more values)
DIGIT-OF is the numeric digits, LOWER-OF is the lowercase letters, UPPER-OFis the upper-case letters, ALPHA-OF is all of the letters, PUNCTUATION-OF is punctuation, BLANK-OF is blanks.
It is trivial for the user to define macros like this. For example:
: punctuation-of ( head xt -- new-head )
s| .,!?'";:[]()@#$%&| chars-of ;
: blank-of ( head xt -- new-head )
0 32 range-of ;
So far, we have been assuming that the :NONAME function would DROP the selector. This isn't always done though. I have an assembler/simulator
for a custom processor with 16-bit opcodes. In many of the opcodes,
the lower 9 bits are an embedded literal. I use RANGE-OF so that all
$200 opcodes will execute the same :NONAME function. The :NONAME
function needs the selector (the opcode) so it can extract the
embedded literal with $1FF AND to use this literal in the simulation
of the opcode. RANGE-OF is hugely useful for similating opcodes
assuming that the embedded literal values are in the lower bits
(I designed the processor, so I can put the embedded literal there).
Note that, RANGE-OF has recently (for this processor) been upgraded to insert the values in reverse order to help speed up the table build.
We also have CASE: ... ;; that was suggested by DXforth. Apparently he wanted to loosely imitate the syntax of ANS-Forth's goofy CASE
construct, although I don't know why anybody would care about this.
Instead of this:
:NONAME drop ... ; targ CASE-OF
You do this:
targ CASE: ... ;;
I also have STRING-SWITCH> that is similar to SLOW-SWITCH> in that it
uses a binary search, but it is for strings rather than integers.
Instead of CASE-OF you use STRING-OF and your TARG value is not an
integer but is an ADR/CNT pair for a counted string (typically
provided by S" or S| or whatever).
This was written for supporting something similar to LEX, although I
have my STRING-STACK.4TH package now that would be better.
STRING-SWITCH> might still prove useful though. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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