I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science.
Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup
Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path issue.
Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not work
with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and using a DOS
box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous. God only knows
how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were
lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and make a modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at least
good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this
email to the list took numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/18/22 04:50, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science. Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path issue. Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not work with the current version of python.

It's usually best to wait a bit after a new Python releases, until the
myriad packages developed externally which depend on the binary ABI
catch up. *Some* carefully follow the beta release cycle and are ready
on or close to day 1, some feel like they have enough other work to do
and are not. Can understand both viewpoints. You can check - search for something that's important to you on pypi.org and see if binary wheels
are available.

e.g. https://pypi.org/project/pygame/#files

New Python releases are only once a year, so this shouldn't be too huge
a burden, Python 3.10 works just fine in the meantime.

Then the kludgy PIP app and using a DOS
box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous.

Why? Python is a command-line tool to process a language, Similar to
many other languages - Go, for example. Or a C/C++ compiler. *Or* you
can choose to use someone's wrapping of that process inside an
Integrated Development Environment. There are tons that support Python
and let you run your code from within the editor environment without
having to go open a cmd.exe or powershell box. Most of those are
external, but the comes-with-Python IDLE works well, too.

God only knows
how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were
lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and make a modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at least good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this
email to the list took numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

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On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 06:10, Mats Wichmann <mats@wichmann.us> wrote:

Why? Python is a command-line tool to process a language, Similar to
many other languages - Go, for example. Or a C/C++ compiler. *Or* you
can choose to use someone's wrapping of that process inside an
Integrated Development Environment. There are tons that support Python
and let you run your code from within the editor environment without
having to go open a cmd.exe or powershell box. Most of those are
external, but the comes-with-Python IDLE works well, too.

I wouldn't bother responding to these sorts of people. They have
already decided that it's impossible to find any sort of decent IDE
for Python (despite pretty much every editor out there having Python
support), are deathly afraid of command lines, and yet feel the need
to join a mailing list to tell us all that. You won't convince them of anything.

ChrisA

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I agree. Wasted too much time on last few installs.

It got to the point I downloaded python-embedded, unzipped it and set
the path manually for my work (needed it as part of a compiler).

It ain't good enough. And I like python.

jan

On 18/12/2022 11:50, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science. Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path issue. Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not work with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and using a DOS box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous. God only knows how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were
lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and make a modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at least good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this
email to the list took numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/19/2022 12:28 PM, j via Python-list wrote:

I agree. Wasted too much time on last few installs.

It got to the point I downloaded python-embedded, unzipped it and set
the path manually for my work (needed it as part of a compiler).

I don't set those paths. If you have several different versions
installed, who knows which one the path will find first? Probably not
the one you want. Without paths to the script files, I need to set them temporarily, navigate to to the right directory first, or create a
dedicated batch file, but at least I get the right ones that way.

I don't find it to be a problem.

It ain't good enough. And I like python.

jan

On 18/12/2022 11:50, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science.
Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup
Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path
issue.
Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library
compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not work
with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and using
a DOS
box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous. God only
knows
how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were
lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and make a
modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at least
good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this
email to the list took numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/18/2022 6:50 AM, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science. Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path issue. Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not work with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and using a DOS box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous. God only knows how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were
lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and make a modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at least good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this
email to the list took numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

Issues installing python and sending an email?

Ask for a refund on your compsci degree.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

This type of response is not called for. I thought this list was designed
to help people. That's not what this person was doing. Everyone has
different experience levels and backgrounds. Help them learn. Don't berate them.

Here's what was said:

Issues installing python and sending an email?

Ask for a refund on your compsci degree.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+jschwar=sbcglobal.net@python.org> On Behalf Of DFS
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 12:58 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: Installation hell

On 12/18/2022 6:50 AM, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science. Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python
Setup Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path

issue.

Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not
work with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and
using a DOS box under Windows with command prompts which is
ridiculous. God only knows how many novice users of the language (or
even intermediate users) were lost in the setup process. Why not clean
the infrastructure up and make a modern environment or IDE or
something better than it is now. Or at least good error messages that
explain exactly what to do. Even getting this email to the list took

numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

Issues installing python and sending an email?

Ask for a refund on your compsci degree.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I was unclear. I use the full path to the folder with the unzipped python-embedded. I shouldn't have said 'set'.

I have complained on here before about broken installs but got
indifference. An installer should install stuff correctly (leaving a
working environment). If it won't then give clear instructions on how to install manually then let us do it. A broken installer is like a road
that just runs out.

Dismissals about 'lazy people' (for example) aren't helpful if you are
trying to get some actual work done.

jan


On 19/12/2022 17:55, Thomas Passin wrote:

On 12/19/2022 12:28 PM, j via Python-list wrote:

I agree. Wasted too much time on last few installs.

It got to the point I downloaded python-embedded, unzipped it and set
the path manually for my work (needed it as part of a compiler).

I don't set those paths.  If you have several different versions
installed, who knows which one the path will find first?  Probably not
the one you want.  Without paths to the script files, I need to set
them temporarily, navigate to to the right directory first, or create
a dedicated batch file, but at least I get the right ones that way.

I don't find it to be a problem.

It ain't good enough. And I like python.

jan

On 18/12/2022 11:50, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science.
Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup
Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path
issue.
Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library
compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not
work
with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and
using a DOS
box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous. God only
knows
how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were
lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and
make a
modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at
least
good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this
email to the list took numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/19/22 13:34, j via Python-list wrote:

I was unclear. I use the full path to the folder with the unzipped python-embedded. I shouldn't have said 'set'.

I have complained on here before about broken installs but got
indifference. An installer should install stuff correctly (leaving a
working environment). If it won't then give clear instructions on how to install manually then let us do it. A broken installer is like a road
that just runs out.

Dismissals about 'lazy people' (for example) aren't helpful if you are
trying to get some actual work done.

jan

I don't think there was an intent to be dismissive, just to point out
that this list, and the tutor list, and other places *do* get questions
from people who haven't tried very much, and don't tell their readers
what they've tried, jrather ust go "it's broken, please fix it for me".
You can call that lazy or not (I personally would not throw out that
term); it does happen.

The Python installer has a few specific people working on it, most of us
here aren't in a position to make changes to it - complaining here can
get sympathy, or not, but probably not action. It does seem to work out
for a lot of people, so it's always a bit of a surprise when it doesn't.
I'd say you ought to file an issue on it if it's broken for you - not
to say you haven't tried that already.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/19/2022 3:34 PM, j wrote:

I was unclear. I use the full path to the folder with the unzipped python-embedded. I shouldn't have said 'set'.

I have complained on here before about broken installs but got
indifference. An installer should install stuff correctly (leaving a
working environment). If it won't then give clear instructions on how to install manually then let us do it. A broken installer is like a road
that just runs out.

Yes, I've had a few of those, just not with Python so far. One problem
with a list like this is that if other people don't have the problem or
can't make it happen, then they don't have any suggestions based on
personal experience. So they can't be helpful. In this issue, I'm in
that category.

In that situation, we (the list-people, I mean) need good information to
have a chance of being helpful. But I've observed that many requestors
for help like this - especially installation issues - don't provide any
useful particulars. That makes it seem like they don't understand what
they are doing, and folks would like them to do their homework and think
about what it would take for other people to have a chance of helping.

Would you try to cook a meal, and then say "I followed the recipe and it
didn't work, please help"? It's impossible. But I've seen this kind of question over and over on this list.

I did once have a Python installation problem. The installed Python
executable worked, but later I ran into some permissions problem. I had installed for "everyone", so it installed into Program Files, and
apparently somewhere along the way I had done something odd to the
permissions for that directory. I was never sure what. I uninstalled,
and since then I have always installed new versions for just one user
(me). Never a problem since.

I'm sorry to say that I have never tried an embedded install, and I
don't know what's different about one. Maybe I'll try one now, just to
know.

Dismissals about 'lazy people' (for example) aren't helpful if you are
trying to get some actual work done.

Yes, that's true. Lack of clear information isn't helpful, either.

Well this is getting too long, and not directly helping with any of your problems. I hope it may be informative for others who want to ask for
help. To be able to help someone, I have to understand just what they
were trying to do, what they did, what happened that caused them to
think their efforts failed, and what error messages the system emitted.
That may not be enough either, but it's a required starting point.
Without this kind of information, people who want to help feel frustrated.

jan

On 19/12/2022 17:55, Thomas Passin wrote:

On 12/19/2022 12:28 PM, j via Python-list wrote:

I agree. Wasted too much time on last few installs.

It got to the point I downloaded python-embedded, unzipped it and set
the path manually for my work (needed it as part of a compiler).

I don't set those paths.  If you have several different versions
installed, who knows which one the path will find first?  Probably not
the one you want.  Without paths to the script files, I need to set
them temporarily, navigate to to the right directory first, or create
a dedicated batch file, but at least I get the right ones that way.

I don't find it to be a problem.

It ain't good enough. And I like python.

jan

On 18/12/2022 11:50, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science. >>>> Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup >>>> Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path
issue.
Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library
compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not
work
with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and
using a DOS
box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous. God only
knows
how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were >>>> lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and
make a
modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at
least
good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this >>>> email to the list took numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/19/2022 4:54 PM, Thomas Passin wrote:

On 12/19/2022 3:34 PM, j wrote:

I was unclear. I use the full path to the folder with the unzipped
python-embedded. I shouldn't have said 'set'.

I have complained on here before about broken installs but got
indifference. An installer should install stuff correctly (leaving a
working environment). If it won't then give clear instructions on how
to install manually then let us do it. A broken installer is like a
road that just runs out.

Yes, I've had a few of those, just not with Python so far.  One problem
with a list like this is that if other people don't have the problem or
can't make it happen, then they don't have any suggestions based on
personal experience.  So they can't be helpful.  In this issue, I'm in
that category.

In that situation, we (the list-people, I mean) need good information to
have a chance of being helpful.  But I've observed that many requestors
for help like this - especially installation issues - don't provide any useful particulars.  That makes it seem like they don't understand what
they are doing, and folks would like them to do their homework and think about what it would take for other people to have a chance of helping.

Would you try to cook a meal, and then say "I followed the recipe and it didn't work, please help"?  It's impossible.  But I've seen this kind of question over and over on this list.

I did once have a Python installation problem.  The installed Python executable worked, but later I ran into some permissions problem.  I had installed for "everyone", so it installed into Program Files, and
apparently somewhere along the way I had done something odd to the permissions for that directory.  I was never sure what.  I uninstalled,
and since then I have always installed new versions for just one user
(me). Never a problem since.

I'm sorry to say that I have never tried an embedded install, and I
don't know what's different about one.  Maybe I'll try one now, just to know.

FWIW, I once set up a Python installation so that it could run from a
USB stick (Windows only). My launcher was a batch file that contained
the following:

@echo off
setlocal
: Find effective drive for this file.
set ed=%~d0
path %ed%\python37\Scripts;%ed%\python37;%PATH%
set PYTHONUSERBASE=%ed%\user\python
set HOME=%ed%\user\python
call python %*
endlocal

I suppose anyone trying to use an embedded version of Python would have
to set up some environmental variables in a similar way. Note that I
used the "user" directory on the USB stick as a home directory for the installation.

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On 2022-12-19, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

So much easier to do on a Unix-like system, where you don't need to
concern yourself with "effective drive" and can simply use relative
paths. I know we're not here to bash Windows, but... drive letters
really need to just die already.

They needed to "die already" 40 years ago. I was a Unix user before
MS-DOS came out, and I was rather stunned by the whole drive letter
thing. It seemed like such a giant step backwards. I figured that once
hard drives became common, drive letters would die. Nope, they're
still failing strong!

--
Grant

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On 12/19/2022 5:16 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 09:12, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:

FWIW, I once set up a Python installation so that it could run from a
USB stick (Windows only). My launcher was a batch file that contained
the following:

@echo off
setlocal
: Find effective drive for this file.
set ed=%~d0
path %ed%\python37\Scripts;%ed%\python37;%PATH%
set PYTHONUSERBASE=%ed%\user\python
set HOME=%ed%\user\python
call python %*
endlocal

So much easier to do on a Unix-like system, where you don't need to
concern yourself with "effective drive" and can simply use relative
paths. I know we're not here to bash Windows, but... drive letters
really need to just die already.

Considering that this was for a removable drive, the launcher needed to
know its own location, which might change from one instance to another.
If you look at the code above, you won't find an obvious drive letter.
You would need to do the equivalent on Linux. The Windows drive letter
is just not relevant here.

(and I thought we weren't going keep on bashing non-preferred operating systems).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 09:12, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:

FWIW, I once set up a Python installation so that it could run from a
USB stick (Windows only). My launcher was a batch file that contained
the following:

@echo off
setlocal
: Find effective drive for this file.
set ed=%~d0
path %ed%\python37\Scripts;%ed%\python37;%PATH%
set PYTHONUSERBASE=%ed%\user\python
set HOME=%ed%\user\python
call python %*
endlocal

So much easier to do on a Unix-like system, where you don't need to
concern yourself with "effective drive" and can simply use relative
paths. I know we're not here to bash Windows, but... drive letters
really need to just die already.

ChrisA

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 10:01, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:

On 12/19/2022 5:16 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 09:12, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:

FWIW, I once set up a Python installation so that it could run from a
USB stick (Windows only). My launcher was a batch file that contained
the following:

@echo off
setlocal
: Find effective drive for this file.
set ed=%~d0
path %ed%\python37\Scripts;%ed%\python37;%PATH%
set PYTHONUSERBASE=%ed%\user\python
set HOME=%ed%\user\python
call python %*
endlocal

So much easier to do on a Unix-like system, where you don't need to
concern yourself with "effective drive" and can simply use relative
paths. I know we're not here to bash Windows, but... drive letters
really need to just die already.

Considering that this was for a removable drive, the launcher needed to
know its own location, which might change from one instance to another.
If you look at the code above, you won't find an obvious drive letter.
You would need to do the equivalent on Linux. The Windows drive letter
is just not relevant here.

The only thing that's relevant is the *path*. Everything can be made
relative to a single directory. On Unix-like systems, any relative
path can be made absolute with reference to a single directory - most
commonly the current working directory, of which there is precisely
one. On Windows, there is the current working directory, plus
twenty-six ADDITIONAL reference directories, plus a current drive (I'm
not certain whether "current working directory" is the same as
"current drive + current directory on that drive", so maybe there's
one fewer than this).

If you create a Python virtual environment without symlinks (eg
"python3 -m venv env --copies"), you can run Python scripts using that environment simply by invoking the corresponding Python interpreter,
regardless of the actual path. Trivially easy, because it's simply
relative paths.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 10:03, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2022-12-19, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

So much easier to do on a Unix-like system, where you don't need to
concern yourself with "effective drive" and can simply use relative
paths. I know we're not here to bash Windows, but... drive letters
really need to just die already.

They needed to "die already" 40 years ago. I was a Unix user before
MS-DOS came out, and I was rather stunned by the whole drive letter
thing. It seemed like such a giant step backwards. I figured that once
hard drives became common, drive letters would die. Nope, they're
still failing strong!

They feel like part of an old style of concrete identifiers, like
working with direct memory addresses (as opposed to virtual memory
pages), until you realise that even MS-DOS had a special hack that let
a single physical drive behave as both A: and B: with system-provided
prompts "please insert disk for drive A/B" when needed. And with the
SUBST and JOIN commands, you could - again, even in MS-DOS - mount
directories as drives or drives as directories. (I don't remember what
happened if you tried to use both at once to have a directory appear
in a different location - the equivalent of a bind mount. Might have
worked.) People could have destroyed drive letters by just always
turning them into directories, and then comfortably moving to a
Unix-like mount system, but since that didn't happen, generations of
Windows users have grown up with the expectation that drive letters
are a thing.

And that leads to myriad problems. Until Steve Dower got involved with
the Python installers, there were periodic issues resulting from
certain combinations of (a) installing Python somewhere other than the
C: drive, (b) using pip from somewhere other than the C: drive to
install packages, and (c) attempting to use those packages from
somewhere other than C:. I don't remember exactly what the solutions
were (I want to say that "use explicit paths" was part of it, but this
was a while ago and my memory of other people's problems isn't the
greatest), but it was often a mess.

Chrsia

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Personally I use winpython: https://winpython.github.io/
That have all the scientific packages already available.
It can run without being installed and uses spyder as an IDE (for small projects it's ok).
And, I can import pygame (even though I have not tested if everything works) in python 3.11.
As I'm using it for science projects I find it perfect.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/19/22, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 09:12, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:

@echo off
setlocal
: Find effective drive for this file.
set ed=%~d0
path %ed%\python37\Scripts;%ed%\python37;%PATH%

For reference, in case not everyone on the list knows what "%~d0"
means, the CMD shell supports extracting the drive (d), path (p), name
(n), and extension (x) components of a path name that's stored in a
parameter such as "%0". The full path (f) is resolved beforehand. For
example:

C:\Temp>set var=spam\eggs.py

C:\Temp>for %c in (%var%) do @echo drive: "%~dc"
drive: "C:"

C:\Temp>for %c in (%var%) do @echo path: "%~pc"
path: "\Temp\spam\"

C:\Temp>for %c in (%var%) do @echo name: "%~nc"
name: "eggs"

C:\Temp>for %c in (%var%) do @echo extension: "%~xc"
extension: ".py"

C:\Temp>for %c in (%var%) do @echo full path: "%~dpnxc"
full path: "C:\Temp\spam\eggs.py"

C:\Temp>for %c in (%var%) do @echo full path: "%~fc"
full path: "C:\Temp\spam\eggs.py"

So much easier to do on a Unix-like system, where you don't need to
concern yourself with "effective drive" and can simply use relative
paths.

A relative path in the PATH environment variable would depend on the
current working directory. Surely the added paths need to be absolute.
However, Thomas didn't have to reference the drive explicitly. The
expression "%~dp0" is the fully-qualified directory of the executing
batch script, and an absolute path can reference its ancestor
directories using ".." components.

I know we're not here to bash Windows, but... drive letters
really need to just die already.

I don't foresee drive-letter names getting phased out of Windows. And
Windows itself is unlikely to get phased out as long as Microsoft
continues to profit from it, as it has for the past 37 years.

The drive concept is deeply ingrained in the design of NT, the Windows
API, shells, and applications. While assigning drive names "A:", "B:",
and "D:" to "Z:" can be avoided, the system volume, i.e. drive "C:",
still has to be accessed in the normal way, or using another one of
its persistent names, such as r"\\?\BootPartition".

The latter still uses the filesystem mount point on the root path of
the device (e.g. "\\\\?\\BootPartition\\"), which you probably take
issue with. That's a deeply ingrained aspect of Windows. Even mount
points set on filesystem directories are actually bind mount points
that ultimately resolve to the root path on the volume device (e.g. "\\Device\\HarddiskVolume4\\"). This differs from how regular mount
points work on Unix, for which a path like "/dev/sda1/etc" is
gibberish.

Below I've outlined the underlying details of how logical drives (e.g.
"C:"), UNC shares (e.g. r"\\server\share"), other device names, and
filesystem mount points are implemented on NT.

---

NT Device Names

In contrast to Unix, NT is organized around an object namespace, not a
root filesystem. Instances of many object types can be named. Some
named object types also support a parse routine for paths in the
namespace of an object (e.g. the configuration manager's registry
"Key" type and the I/O manager's "Device" type).

The object manager uses two object types to define the object
namespace: Directory and Symbolic Link. Directory objects form the
hierarchical tree. At the base of the tree is the anonymous root
directory object (i.e. "\\"). A directory is implemented as a hashmap
of named objects. A directory can be set as the shadow of another
directory, creating a union directory for name lookups.

Unless otherwise stated, the following discussion uses "directory" and "symlink" to refer to a directory object and a symbolic-link object, respectively -- not to a filesystem directory or filesystem symlink.

A canonical NT device name (e.g. "C:", "PIPE", "UNC") is implemen

On 12/20/2022 8:11 AM, Eryk Sun wrote:
[snipped]

I know we're not here to bash Windows, but... drive letters
really need to just die already.

I don't foresee drive-letter names getting phased out of Windows. And
Windows itself is unlikely to get phased out as long as Microsoft
continues to profit from it, as it has for the past 37 years.

Microsoft won't get rid of them for backwards compatibility reasons,
aside from the sheer difficulty of changing all that code. The company
has always been very industrious about keeping backwards compatibility
for Windows. I have compiled Delphi Windows GUI code from 2003 and even earlier that still runs, as one example.

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On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:35:12 PM UTC-8, Jim Schwartz wrote:

This type of response is not called for. I thought this list was designed
to help people. That's not what this person was doing. Everyone has different experience levels and backgrounds. Help them learn. Don't berate them.
Here's what was said:

Issues installing python and sending an email?

Ask for a refund on your compsci degree.
-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+jschwar=sbcglo...@python.org> On Behalf Of DFS
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 12:58 PM
To: pytho...@python.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: Installation hell

On 12/18/2022 6:50 AM, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science. Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python
Setup Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path

issue.

Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not
work with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and
using a DOS box under Windows with command prompts which is
ridiculous. God only knows how many novice users of the language (or
even intermediate users) were lost in the setup process. Why not clean
the infrastructure up and make a modern environment or IDE or
something better than it is now. Or at least good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this email to the list took

numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

Issues installing python and sending an email?

Ask for a refund on your compsci degree.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

🤣🤣🤣🤣
@ Jim Schwartz: It's uncalled for, ! "not called for"
@ lousy compsci major: You're right! It is a pain in the arse. But you can try managing your personal hell with PYENV for version control and PIPENV for venv management.

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Le lundi 19 décembre 2022 à 18:56:01 UTC+1, Thomas Passin a écrit :

On 12/19/2022 12:28 PM, j via Python-list wrote:

I agree. Wasted too much time on last few installs.

It got to the point I downloaded python-embedded, unzipped it and set
the path manually for my work (needed it as part of a compiler).

I don't set those paths. If you have several different versions
installed, who knows which one the path will find first? Probably not
the one you want. Without paths to the script files, I need to set them temporarily, navigate to to the right directory first, or create a
dedicated batch file, but at least I get the right ones that way.

I don't find it to be a problem.

It ain't good enough. And I like python.

jan

On 18/12/2022 11:50, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science. >> Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup >> Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path
issue.
Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library
compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not work >> with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and using
a DOS
box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous. God only
knows
how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were >> lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and make a >> modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at least >> good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this
email to the list took numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

-----
With powershell one can create an alias in $profile.
One can create a p38.ps1 script launcher (*).
One can create a Python dedicated shortcut on the desk. (And
set a background colour !).
For some gui apps, I created vbs launchers. Still working in Win 11.

(*)
PS C:\jmprog> cd c:\humour
PS C:\humour> $a = p38.ps1 -c "print('abc霟')" | out-string
PS C:\humour> $a
abc霟
PS C:\humour>

Buggy:
- py.exe
- virtual environments

- I even create a real portable Python with the ms-api*-
- One can modify the cp1252 codec module, so that I work
how it should !

On C:\ or on an USB-key/device.
USB ? Yes Fat32 not NTFS (Python buggyness)

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Le mercredi 21 décembre 2022 à 09:21:39 UTC+1, moi a écrit :

Le lundi 19 décembre 2022 à 18:56:01 UTC+1, Thomas Passin a écrit :

On 12/19/2022 12:28 PM, j via Python-list wrote:

I agree. Wasted too much time on last few installs.

It got to the point I downloaded python-embedded, unzipped it and set the path manually for my work (needed it as part of a compiler).

I don't set those paths. If you have several different versions
installed, who knows which one the path will find first? Probably not
the one you want. Without paths to the script files, I need to set them temporarily, navigate to to the right directory first, or create a dedicated batch file, but at least I get the right ones that way.

I don't find it to be a problem.

It ain't good enough. And I like python.

jan

On 18/12/2022 11:50, Jim Lewis wrote:

I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science. >> Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup >> Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path
issue.
Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library
compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not work
with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and using >> a DOS
box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous. God only
knows
how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were >> lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and make a
modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at least
good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this >> email to the list took numerous steps.

-- A frustrated user

-----
With powershell one can create an alias in $profile.
One can create a p38.ps1 script launcher (*).
One can create a Python dedicated shortcut on the desk. (And
set a background colour !).
For some gui apps, I created vbs launchers. Still working in Win 11.

(*)
PS C:\jmprog> cd c:\humour
PS C:\humour> $a = p38.ps1 -c "print('abc霟')" | out-string
PS C:\humour> $a
abc霟
PS C:\humour>

Buggy:
- py.exe
- virtual environments

- I even create a real portable Python with the ms-api*-
- One can modify the cp1252 codec module, so that I work
how it should !

On C:\ or on an USB-key/device.
USB ? Yes Fat32 not NTFS (Python buggyness)

---------

Ditto for pypy where you have the choice between

PS C:\humour> pypy34 -c "print('abc霟\u03b1')"
abc霟α

or

PS C:\humour> pypy34 -c "print('abc霟\u03b1')"
abc霟α
PS C:\humour>

I think "c:\humour" is a good name.

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It's also possible to launch IronPython.

PS C:\humour> ipy34.bat

The python variant which raises errors when you press a key to enter
text with your Western European keyboard...

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