• Joy of this, Joy of that

    From root@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 19 17:09:49 2024
    I want to complement these joy posts by my feelings
    about junk languages. My programming experience
    includes a wide variety from machine language, assembly
    language, Fortran, and C going back to the 60's.

    I call Perl, Python, and Javascript junk languages:
    because programs written in these are unstable. Some
    modification in these can cause a perfectly functional
    program to stop working because of some change that
    was not backward compatible.

    I ran into this problem way back in the 70's when I
    was running Fortran programs on CDC machines. One
    day my Fortran programs would no longer compile because
    CDC had updated their compiler. I had no recourse
    other than tracking down every "error" and programming
    around that. Do that with a program that ran to
    20 boxes of cards.

    Although Perl supposedly had an automatic method
    for updating my Perl programs, it didn't work
    for me and I just abandoned all the stuff that
    I had written up to that time.

    I am now running into these same problems with
    javascript programs using jsdom. Junk.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to root on Wed Nov 20 02:52:47 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 02:33:52 -0000 (UTC), root wrote:

    ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.] Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    If Fortran can be a “junk language” by your definition, then so can any >> language.

    It wasn't Fortran that changed, it was the CDC compiler.

    Why did you offer it as an example, then?

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  • From root@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Wed Nov 20 02:33:52 2024
    XPost: comp.lang.misc

    ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.]
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    If Fortran can be a ???junk language??? by your definition, then so can any language.

    It wasn't Fortran that changed, it was the CDC compiler.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to root on Wed Nov 20 04:46:52 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 02:33:52 -0000 (UTC), root wrote:

    ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.] Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    If Fortran can be a ???junk language??? by your definition, then so can
    any language.

    It wasn't Fortran that changed, it was the CDC compiler.

    Was it nonconforming or prior to the ANSI standard? Over the years gcc has become pickier about practices that weren't very good to start with like assuming functions return an int unless otherwise specified or declaring variables in header files.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to root on Wed Nov 20 03:37:58 2024
    On 11/19/24 12:09 PM, root wrote:
    I want to complement these joy posts by my feelings
    about junk languages. My programming experience
    includes a wide variety from machine language, assembly
    language, Fortran, and C going back to the 60's.

    HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY !!! :-)

    These "Joy" threads seem to have REVIVED these
    otherwise kinda dismal, under-posted, groups.

    Remember when computer stuff was super-INTERESTING,
    a PASSION maybe ? Well, the same stuff is STILL there,
    it's just the crowd became kinda cynical.

    FORTRAN, COBOL, ASM, BASIC, PASCAL, 'C' ... you
    name it - there are a million ways to make it
    all GOOD. SO many super-neato variants in How
    To Do It.

    OK ... never found any joy in ADA .... but that's
    just me.

    I call Perl, Python, and Javascript junk languages:
    because programs written in these are unstable. Some
    modification in these can cause a perfectly functional
    program to stop working because of some change that
    was not backward compatible.

    Ummmm ... I'd tend to disagree, esp with Python.

    The main thing with Python was the v2 -> v3
    transition. Even then it's usually not much
    problem to translate a v2 to v3 app. They
    PROMISE that p4 will almost entirely stick to
    the p3 methods, just kinda pepped-up. It HAS
    become an "all purpose" lang - kinda the "New
    BASIC".

    NEVER liked JS or Perl ... but that's just me.
    Real-world, they seem to do their thing OK.

    Almost always proto a new idea in Python now ...
    and, if good, translate it into 'C' or even
    Pascal. My old fave was/is Pascal - something
    'poetic' about it.

    I ran into this problem way back in the 70's when I
    was running Fortran programs on CDC machines. One
    day my Fortran programs would no longer compile because
    CDC had updated their compiler. I had no recourse
    other than tracking down every "error" and programming
    around that. Do that with a program that ran to
    20 boxes of cards.

    Yep, been there ......

    Langs/compilers have become kinda MORE "standard"
    since those days. Sometimes still have to tweak
    the defines a little, but LESS horrible.

    Although Perl supposedly had an automatic method
    for updating my Perl programs, it didn't work
    for me and I just abandoned all the stuff that
    I had written up to that time.

    Perl smells like a camel's ass ... just no
    reason for it.

    I am now running into these same problems with
    javascript programs using jsdom. Junk.

    As said ... JS is kind of an ever-mutating
    mess. IMHO, stay away from it as much as
    possible. I suspect the ever-mutating aspect
    is INTENTIONAL ... a 'make work' thing .....

    Best to stick to 'C'. K&R can still tell you
    almost everything you need :-)

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed
    in BASIC ? Should do a survey .....

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Wed Nov 20 16:03:26 2024
    On 20/11/2024 15:46, Rich wrote:
    The entire language looks like three shit-faced drunk language
    designers teamed up with three stoned off their gourd language
    designers and agreed to create the script language, and each put in
    their own alcohol or mary jane fueled idea of how the language should
    be designed.

    Lol..

    Ive worked on projects like that.
    One guy would say function todosomething
    Another would call it function To_do_something.
    And the next it would be function toDoSomething

    I'd call it function blat and leave a 20 line comment explaining what it
    did.

    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Wed Nov 20 15:46:41 2024
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    NEVER liked JS or Perl ... but that's just me.
    Real-world, they seem to do their thing OK.

    If JS or Perl are your yardstick for "never liked" you must never have attempted to write an AutoHotKey script to automate something on a
    windows machine.

    The entire language looks like three shit-faced drunk language
    designers teamed up with three stoned off their gourd language
    designers and agreed to create the script language, and each put in
    their own alcohol or mary jane fueled idea of how the language should
    be designed.

    There's absolutely no consistency in anything in that language. One
    thing one has to pass around are WID's (Window ID's) so that the target
    window which is to receive the "automation" is identified. Some
    functions have prototypes like this (note, these are made up below):

    getxy(wid, result)

    Others have prototypes like this:

    move_to_x_y(x, y, wid)

    Others are this way

    recolor-window(x, wid, y, color, result)

    Still others use camel case

    getSomethingFromWindows(result, a, b, wid, q)

    Note now "wid" moves around in the prototype list, yet it is needed for
    nearly every call. Also note the underscore vs. hyphen vs camel case
    names.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to John Ames on Wed Nov 20 16:31:36 2024
    On 20/11/2024 16:10, John Ames wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
    a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
    haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    I've seen entire accounting systems written in it.
    I gotr quite deep into it before discovering...

    *Tada!*

    ...Z80 Assembler Which was fun, but slow..until
    The C language. Still fun, but MUCH faster.

    --
    "An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
    only in others...”

    Tom Wolfe

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to John Ames on Wed Nov 20 17:54:35 2024
    On 2024-11-20, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
    a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
    haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    The software I've been maintaining for 30 years was originally written
    in (compiled) BASIC under MS-DOS (with an early prototype running on
    an MP/M box). I translated the lot to C.

    I still keep a copy of GWBASIC around for quick 10-line hacks.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to John Ames on Wed Nov 20 19:02:07 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 08:10:39 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500 "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do a
    survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
    haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    When the company I worked for bought an IBM 5120 I was drafted to develop
    an inventory control system. The 5120 had two choices for languages, APL
    and BASIC as well as a bastard offspring of RPG called BRADS which was in BASIC.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Wed Nov 20 18:53:45 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Almost always proto a new idea in Python now ...
    and, if good, translate it into 'C' or even Pascal. My old fave
    was/is Pascal - something 'poetic' about it.

    With MicroPython and AdaFruit's CircuitPython working with the Pico,
    Arduoino Nano 33 and other Arm based microcontrollers is pretty easy. Of
    more speed or precision on PWM and so forth is needed rewriting in Cosn't
    a problem.

    The same applies to the Raspberry Pi itself.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to John Ames on Wed Nov 20 21:05:26 2024
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
    a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
    haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to John Ames on Wed Nov 20 21:47:38 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 08:10:39 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    ... FreeBASIC is my go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life ...

    No REPL? Even Perl and Python can offer that. Even the old-style BASICs
    had something like that (immediate mode).

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  • From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to Rich on Wed Nov 20 23:30:03 2024
    Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 21:05 this Wednesday (GMT):
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
    a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
    haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since
    childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we
    cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.


    I haven't
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to John Ames on Wed Nov 20 23:39:15 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 14:09:14 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 21:47:38 -0000 (UTC)
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 08:10:39 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    ... FreeBASIC is my go-to for hacking together quick utility
    applications in daily life ...

    No REPL? Even Perl and Python can offer that. Even the old-style BASICs
    had something like that (immediate mode).

    By the way, I don’t think Perl has a REPL. I think the term comes from
    Lisp.

    Depends on the use case, but generally when I'm throwing together some one-off utility or proof-of-concept I know about what I'm trying to do
    and how I intend to structure the thing ahead of time, just from
    thinking about the problem.

    I often don’t. Actually I don’t use a REPL much (beyond one-liners, anyway). Jupyter notebooks give me a broader canvas for doing “scratchpad” programming, as I am putting ideas together.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 20 23:58:18 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:30:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

    Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 21:05 this Wednesday (GMT):

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.

    I haven't

    You’re not missing anything.

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  • From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Thu Nov 21 01:50:03 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 23:58 this Wednesday (GMT):
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:30:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

    Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 21:05 this Wednesday (GMT):

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.

    I haven't

    You’re not missing anything.


    Good to know
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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  • From vallor@21:1/5 to ldo@nz.invalid on Thu Nov 21 01:27:41 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:39:15 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vhlrv3$ahc9$3@dont-email.me>:

    By the way, I don’t think Perl has a REPL.

    https://metacpan.org/pod/Perl::Shell

    --
    -v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
    OS: Linux 6.12.0 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
    "I can't hear you. There's a banana republic in my ear."

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to candycanearter07@candycanearter07.n on Thu Nov 21 02:48:50 2024
    candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
    Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 21:05 this Wednesday (GMT):
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ?
    Should do a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
    qualify it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC
    is my go-to for hacking together quick utility applications in
    daily life, but I haven't touched old-school line-number
    spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built
    any application of real complexity with it. Bet more than a few
    people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to
    a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one
    of us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different
    variants of "BASIC" that have existed over time.

    I haven't

    Which would make you a member of the remainder of "nearly every" (which
    does not encompass "all").

    It would also imply that you /may/ be one of the younger members posting
    in the group.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to vallor on Thu Nov 21 02:16:41 2024
    On 21 Nov 2024 01:27:41 GMT, vallor wrote:

    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:39:15 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vhlrv3$ahc9$3@dont-email.me>:

    By the way, I don’t think Perl has a REPL.

    https://metacpan.org/pod/Perl::Shell

    Happy to be proven wrong on that. ;)

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to vallor on Thu Nov 21 04:31:53 2024
    On 21 Nov 2024 01:27:41 GMT, vallor wrote:

    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:39:15 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vhlrv3$ahc9$3@dont-email.me>:

    By the way, I don’t think Perl has a REPL.

    https://metacpan.org/pod/Perl::Shell

    "THIS MODULE IS HIGHLY EXPERIMENTAL AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE.

    YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

    This module provides a lookalike implementation of a "command line
    interpreter" for Perl, in the style of the Python equivalent.

    This is part an attempt to make Perl more approachable (both in general
    and specifically for Python programmers), partly an exercise to force
    myself to explore Python's usability aspects, partly a way to provide Strawberry Perl with a "Perl (command line)" start menu entry, and partly
    as fodder for a funny lightning talk."


    FEB 20, 2010 Always comforting. Did it ever happen? I reached retirement
    age waiting for Perl 6.0. Only kidding. I'd switcher to Python by then.

    I was disappointed when I went into the office to change my passwords
    today. I vaguely remembered an O'Reilly book on Tkinter. So much for my
    memory -- it was 'Mastering Perl/Tk'. I left it on the bookshelf with the
    rest of the obsolete books. Even the C++ books bear little resemblance to today's C++. I suppose that is one thing Perl 5 has going for it.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Rich on Thu Nov 21 02:20:58 2024
    On 11/20/24 10:46 AM, Rich wrote:
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    NEVER liked JS or Perl ... but that's just me.
    Real-world, they seem to do their thing OK.

    If JS or Perl are your yardstick for "never liked" you must never have attempted to write an AutoHotKey script to automate something on a
    windows machine.

    Tried a hotkey daemon once, DOS-era, but eventually
    bought one writ by better programmers. Automated
    Winders ... again a real pain in the ass. DOS was
    better at that.

    The entire language looks like three shit-faced drunk language
    designers teamed up with three stoned off their gourd language
    designers and agreed to create the script language, and each put in
    their own alcohol or mary jane fueled idea of how the language should
    be designed.

    There's absolutely no consistency in anything in that language. One
    thing one has to pass around are WID's (Window ID's) so that the target window which is to receive the "automation" is identified. Some
    functions have prototypes like this (note, these are made up below):

    getxy(wid, result)

    Others have prototypes like this:

    move_to_x_y(x, y, wid)

    Others are this way

    recolor-window(x, wid, y, color, result)

    Still others use camel case

    getSomethingFromWindows(result, a, b, wid, q)

    Note now "wid" moves around in the prototype list, yet it is needed for nearly every call. Also note the underscore vs. hyphen vs camel case
    names.

    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl :-)

    Hey, working with X stuff you also need to identify
    screens sometimes ... and they're not always readily
    identified - <something>:2:2

    There is a proliferation of computer langs. A LOT of
    them seem just "unnecessary" - near re-do's of 'C'
    for the most part ... just even weirder syntax to
    justify their existence.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Rich on Thu Nov 21 08:09:29 2024
    On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
    a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
    haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since
    childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we
    cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.


    For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw it,
    apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of lack
    of training than a linguistic feature?

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 21 08:14:58 2024
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 02:20:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/20/24 10:46 AM, Rich wrote:

    If JS or Perl are your yardstick for "never liked" you must never have
    attempted to write an AutoHotKey script to automate something on a
    windows machine.

    Tried a hotkey daemon once, DOS-era, but eventually bought one writ
    by better programmers. Automated Winders ... again a real pain in the
    ass.

    GUIs were never designed to be automated. Which is why trying to do so is fiddly, fragile and just plain unreliable.

    DOS was better at that.

    Command line, of course -- naturally better for automation purposes.
    Though the DOS one was a pitiful toy reimplementation of what was, and
    still is, available on *nix systems.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 21 13:41:42 2024
    On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl  🙂

    Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language

    --
    "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

    Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Pancho on Thu Nov 21 10:45:22 2024
    On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
    a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
    haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since
    childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we
    cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.


    For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw it,
    apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of lack
    of training than a linguistic feature?

    I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
    device where you had to enter several kinds of data
    about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
    and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
    ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
    you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
    4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
    entire record, only one prompt at a time.

    Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
    an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
    keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
    compact.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 21 17:25:11 2024
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    On 11/20/24 10:46 AM, Rich wrote:
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    NEVER liked JS or Perl ... but that's just me.
    Real-world, they seem to do their thing OK.

    If JS or Perl are your yardstick for "never liked" you must never have
    attempted to write an AutoHotKey script to automate something on a
    windows machine.

    Tried a hotkey daemon once, DOS-era, but eventually
    bought one writ by better programmers. Automated
    Winders ... again a real pain in the ass. DOS was
    better at that.

    Automating a GUI is usually a major PIA.

    The entire language looks like three shit-faced drunk language
    designers teamed up with three stoned off their gourd language
    designers and agreed to create the script language, and each put in
    their own alcohol or mary jane fueled idea of how the language
    should be designed.

    There's absolutely no consistency in anything in that language. One
    thing one has to pass around are WID's (Window ID's) so that the
    target window which is to receive the "automation" is identified.
    Some functions have prototypes like this (note, these are made up
    below):

    getxy(wid, result)

    Others have prototypes like this:

    move_to_x_y(x, y, wid)

    Others are this way

    recolor-window(x, wid, y, color, result)

    Still others use camel case

    getSomethingFromWindows(result, a, b, wid, q)

    Note now "wid" moves around in the prototype list, yet it is needed for
    nearly every call. Also note the underscore vs. hyphen vs camel case
    names.

    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl :-)

    I wrote my share of Perl in a world long ago. I never had the
    visiceral reaction to it that some Perl haters have had however,

    AutoHotKey, however, was another several orders of magnitude above
    Perl. Perl is just filled with "special characters that have special meanings", but the meanings are at least consistent. $ is always
    'scalar', % is always key value map, etc. AutoHotKey, however, would
    have had % mean seven different meanings in the seven different places
    it might be used to mean something.

    Hey, working with X stuff you also need to identify
    screens sometimes ... and they're not always readily
    identified - <something>:2:2

    That was a given. What was asinine was some functions expected "winid,
    x, y" as parameter order, others wanted "x,y,winid", still others did "x,winid,something, y" and still others wanted "y, something1, x,
    something2, winid). There was no consistency, anywhere, with any order
    of parameters or of what parameters were always present. It literally
    was as if drunk and stoned designers just threw crap at a wall, and
    whatever stuck to the wall became the AutoHotKey script language.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Pancho on Thu Nov 21 19:48:37 2024
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:09:29 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw it,
    apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of lack
    of training than a linguistic feature?

    I never understood the goto hate that Dijkstra had. It could be used to
    produce hideous code but has valid uses. I'm amused by the syntactic sugar
    used by many languages to conceal what is obviously a goto under the hood
    amd of you dig far enough you get down to JMP, JNE, and similar opcodes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 21 23:04:57 2024
    On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do >>>>> a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify >>>> it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to >>>> for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
    haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since
    childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity >>>> with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we >>>> cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.


    For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
    it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of
    lack of training than a linguistic feature?

      I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
      device where you had to enter several kinds of data
      about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
      and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
      ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
      you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
      4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
      entire record, only one prompt at a time.

      Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
      an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
      keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
      compact.

    Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
    than jumps.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Nov 21 23:14:45 2024
    On 11/21/24 19:48, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:09:29 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw it,
    apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of lack
    of training than a linguistic feature?

    I never understood the goto hate that Dijkstra had. It could be used to produce hideous code but has valid uses. I'm amused by the syntactic sugar used by many languages to conceal what is obviously a goto under the hood
    amd of you dig far enough you get down to JMP, JNE, and similar opcodes.


    Well obviously, a do while is a branch and a jump. The idea was not to eliminate jumps but to impose a structure upon them. So much of good programming is imposing structure, imposing good practice rules to make
    the code more understandable, more manageable.

    You can use good modern programming paradigms in C: OO, pure functions,
    bounds checked arrays, and automatic memory deallocation, it is just
    easier with languages which give you syntactic sugar, and specific
    linguistic features.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Thu Nov 21 23:50:48 2024
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 23:14:45 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    The idea was not to
    eliminate jumps but to impose a structure upon them. So much of good programming is imposing structure, imposing good practice rules to make
    the code more understandable, more manageable.

    Also, when you have a lot of dynamic memory allocation going on, a
    structured discipline helps reduce the chances of common errors like double-frees or memory leaks.

    <https://gitlab.com/ldo/a_structured_discipline_of_programming/>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Pancho on Thu Nov 21 20:31:11 2024
    On 11/21/24 6:04 PM, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do >>>>>> a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify >>>>> it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to >>>>> for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
    complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially
    if we
    cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of >>>> us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants >>>> of "BASIC" that have existed over time.


    For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
    it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of
    lack of training than a linguistic feature?

       I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
       device where you had to enter several kinds of data
       about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
       and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
       ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
       you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
       4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
       entire record, only one prompt at a time.

       Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
       an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
       keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
       compact.

    Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
    than jumps.

    In my app - and the people I wrote it for used it for
    nearly a decade and could easily add/subtract bits - it
    wasn't even a "table". The 'rungs on a ladder' was an
    apt description.

    GOSUBs and such are great, but in this case there
    was less code/mem/cycles involved using the GOTOs
    and the devices did NOT have much space for program.

    Anyhow, that was my neatest use of GOTO. Nothing
    really WRONG with such jumps, they're being done
    in the background by other forking logic anyway,
    it's just that if BADLY used you get unmaintainable
    spaghetti code.

    Even today, Free Pascal supports GOTO ... but you
    LABEL the destination point so you don't have to
    worry about changing line numbers like with older
    versions of BASIC. FORTRAN did, some versions still
    do, support I think two version of GO TO ... labeled
    and 'calculated'. Sometimes you just CAN'T cleanly
    structure what you want - and GOTO is a secret way
    out of some deep deep if-then's and while's and such.

    In any case - part of what I was wondering was
    how many young coders have ever used BASIC, at
    least for more than a few lines of VBA or whatever.
    It used to be THE all-around computer language,
    but that became Python instead.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 22 03:54:04 2024
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:31:11 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Even today, Free Pascal supports GOTO ... but you LABEL the
    destination point so you don't have to worry about changing line
    numbers like with older versions of BASIC. FORTRAN did, some versions
    still do, support I think two version of GO TO ... labeled and
    'calculated'. Sometimes you just CAN'T cleanly structure what you
    want - and GOTO is a secret way out of some deep deep if-then's and
    while's and such.

    The computer goto was declared 'obsolescent' in F95 in favor of 'case' but afaik it still will compile.

    Put enough lipstick on the pig and you wind up with a vtable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don_from_AZ@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Nov 21 20:19:55 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

    On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl  🙂

    Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language

    I've heard it called:

    "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"

    --
    -Don_from_AZ-

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 22 05:51:02 2024
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

    On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl  🙂

    Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language

    I've heard it called:

    "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"

    It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Nov 22 01:25:34 2024
    On 11/21/24 10:54 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:31:11 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Even today, Free Pascal supports GOTO ... but you LABEL the
    destination point so you don't have to worry about changing line
    numbers like with older versions of BASIC. FORTRAN did, some versions
    still do, support I think two version of GO TO ... labeled and
    'calculated'. Sometimes you just CAN'T cleanly structure what you
    want - and GOTO is a secret way out of some deep deep if-then's and
    while's and such.

    The computer goto was declared 'obsolescent' in F95 in favor of 'case' but afaik it still will compile.

    Put enough lipstick on the pig and you wind up with a vtable.

    Heh !!! :-)

    Well, I don't see FORTRAN as a "pig" really - a totally
    useful, still well-supported, lang. Still do little FORTRAN
    utils just to stay in practice.

    Anyway, sometimes you have to nest/flag deep if/then's
    and whiles and such so deep that there's really no
    clean escape in a special or exception condition. This
    is where a 'bail-out' GOTO or two can make yer code
    a LOT simpler/smaller. Not 101% aesthetic, but it works
    very well. Use conservatively.

    Ultimately you judge code by what it DOES - less by
    to how it "looks". It's all "working the machine".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Fri Nov 22 01:51:32 2024
    On 11/21/24 6:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 23:14:45 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    The idea was not to
    eliminate jumps but to impose a structure upon them. So much of good
    programming is imposing structure, imposing good practice rules to make
    the code more understandable, more manageable.

    Also, when you have a lot of dynamic memory allocation going on, a
    structured discipline helps reduce the chances of common errors like double-frees or memory leaks.

    <https://gitlab.com/ldo/a_structured_discipline_of_programming/>


    Quite true. Dynamic alloc is powerful, but can also
    be a powerful driver of horrible FAULTS. Gotta keep
    close track !

    But, if smart, less-structured CAN be made right.

    Today, I'd rec "structured" for a number of reasons,
    but we didn't always have that sort of luxury in
    abundance.

    Still don't love "object" ... gimme something closer
    to K&R instead :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Louis Krupp@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 22 00:35:41 2024
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    On 11/21/2024 6:31 PM, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/21/24 6:04 PM, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ?
    Should do
    a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
    qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my
    go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
    complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially
    if we
    cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every
    one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different
    variants
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.


    For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
    it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign
    of lack of training than a linguistic feature?

       I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
       device where you had to enter several kinds of data
       about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
       and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
       ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
       you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
       4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
       entire record, only one prompt at a time.

       Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
       an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
       keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
       compact.

    Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
    than jumps.

      In my app - and the people I wrote it for used it for
      nearly a decade and could easily add/subtract bits - it
      wasn't even a "table". The 'rungs on a ladder' was an
      apt description.

      GOSUBs and such are great, but in this case there
      was less code/mem/cycles involved using the GOTOs
      and the devices did NOT have much space for program.

      Anyhow, that was my neatest use of GOTO. Nothing
      really WRONG with such jumps, they're being done
      in the background by other forking logic anyway,
      it's just that if BADLY used you get unmaintainable
      spaghetti code.

      Even today, Free Pascal supports GOTO ... but you
      LABEL the destination point so you don't have to
      worry about changing line numbers like with older
      versions of BASIC. FORTRAN did, some versions still
      do, support I think two version of GO TO ... labeled
      and 'calculated'. Sometimes you just CAN'T cleanly
      structure what you want - and GOTO is a secret way
      out of some deep deep if-then's and while's and such.


    I believe you're referring to FORTRAN'S "computed GOTO." Here's an example:
    ===
    program cg1
    implicit none

        integer i

        do i = 1, 9
            go to (10, 20, 30, 40) i
            print *, 'default (', i, ')'
            go to 100
    10      print *, 'ten'
            go to 100
    20      print *, 'twenty'
            go to 100
    30      print *, 'thirty'
            go to 100
    40      print *, 'forty'
            go to 100
    100     continue
        end do

    end program
    ===

    The output:
    ===
     ten
     twenty
     thirty
     forty
     default (           5 )
     default (           6 )
     default (           7 )
     default (           8 )
     default (           9 )
    ===

    gfortran compiles this with -std omitted or with -std=legacy. With
    -std=f90 (or with the other recent standards I've tried,
    -std=f2018 and -std=f2023), I get this error:
    ===
        7 |         go to (10, 20, 30, 40) i
          |         1
    Error: Unclassifiable statement at (1)
    ===

    Louis
    <!DOCTYPE html>
    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/21/2024 6:31 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:186282@ud0s4.net">186282@ud0s4.net</a>
    wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
    cite="mid:0OCcnUL4TZF9Q6L6nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@earthlink.com">On
    11/21/24 6:04 PM, Pancho wrote:
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">On 11/21/24 15:45, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:186282@ud0s4.net">186282@ud0s4.net</a> wrote:
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">John Ames
    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:commodorejohn@gmail.com">&lt;commodorejohn@gmail.com&gt;</a> wrote:
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    <br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:186282@ud0s4.net">"186282@ud0s4.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:186283@ud0s4.net">&lt;186283@ud0s4.net&gt;</a> wrote:
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have
    EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
    <br>
    a survey .....
    <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you
    choose to qualify
    <br>
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and
    FreeBASIC is my go-to
    <br>
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily
    life, but I
    <br>
    haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese
    BASIC since
    <br>
    childhood, and certainly never built any application of
    real complexity
    <br>
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though,
    especially if we
    <br>
    cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
    <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly
    every one of
    <br>
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75
    different variants
    <br>
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
    <br>
    <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&amp;VBA).
    <br>
    <br>
    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never
    really saw it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages.
    Wasn't it more a sign of lack of training than a linguistic
    feature?
    <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
       I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
    <br>
       device where you had to enter several kinds of data
    <br>
       about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
    <br>
       and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
    <br>
       ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
    <br>
       you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
    <br>
       4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
    <br>
       entire record, only one prompt at a time.
    <br>
    <br>
       Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
    <br>
       an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
    <br>
       keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
    <br>
       compact.
    <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions
    rather than jumps.
    <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
      In my app - and the people I wrote it for used it for
    <br>
      nearly a decade and could easily add/subtract bits - it
    <br>
      wasn't even a "table". The 'rungs on a ladder' was an
    <br>
      apt description.
    <br>
    <br>
      GOSUBs and such are great, but in this case there
    <br>
      was less code/mem/cycles involved using the GOTOs
    <br>
      and the devices did NOT have much space for program.
    <br>
    <br>
      Anyhow, that was my neatest use of GOTO. Nothing
    <br>
      really WRONG with such jumps, they're being done
    <br>
      in the background by other forking logic anyway,
    <br>
      it's just that if BADLY used you get unmaintainable
    <br>
      spaghetti code.
    <br>
    <br>
      Even today, Free Pascal supports GOTO ... but you
    <br>
      LABEL the destination point so you don't have to
    <br>
      worry about changing line numbers like with older
    <br>
      versions of BASIC. FORTRAN did, some versions still
    <br>
      do, support I think two version of GO TO ... labeled
    <br>
      and 'calculated'. Sometimes you just CAN'T cleanly
    <br>
      structure what you want - and GOTO is a secret way
    <br>
      out of some deep deep if-then's and while's and such.
    <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I believe you're referring to FORTRAN'S "computed GOTO." Here's an
    example:<br>
    ===<br>
    <font face="Courier New">program cg1<br>
    implicit none<br>
    <br>
        integer i<br>
    <br>
        do i = 1, 9<br>
            go to (10, 20, 30, 40) i<br>
            print *, 'default (', i, ')'<br>
            go to 100<br>
    10      print *, 'ten'<br>
            go to 100<br>
    20      print *, 'twenty'<br>
            go to 100<br>
    30      print *, 'thirty'<br>
            go to 100<br>
    40      print *, 'forty'<br>
            go to 100<br>
    100     continue<br>
        end do</font><br>
    <br>
    <font face="Courier New">end program<br>
    </font>===<br>
    <br>
    The output:<br>
    ===<br>
    <font face="Courier New"> ten<br>
     twenty<br>
     thirty<br>
     forty<br>
     default (           5 )<br>
     default (           6 )<br>
     default (           7 )<br>
     default (           8 )<br>
     default (           9 )</font><br>
    ===<br>
    <br>
    gfortran compiles this with -std omitted or with -std=legacy. With
    -std=f90 (or with the other recent standards I've tried,<br>
    -std=f2018 and -std=f2023), I get this error:<br>
    ===<br>
    <font face="Courier New">    7 |         go to (10, 20, 30, 40) i<br>
          |         1<br>
    Error: Unclassifiable statement at (1)</font><br>
    ===<br>
    <br>
    Louis<br>
    </body>
    </html>

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Nov 22 10:34:46 2024
    On 21/11/2024 19:48, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:09:29 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw it,
    apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of lack
    of training than a linguistic feature?

    I never understood the goto hate that Dijkstra had. It could be used to produce hideous code but has valid uses. I'm amused by the syntactic sugar used by many languages to conceal what is obviously a goto under the hood
    amd of you dig far enough you get down to JMP, JNE, and similar opcodes.

    Yup.

    The real hate was code that was hard to read and debug because flow
    jumped about all over the place.

    But you need to have conditional code execution and that means at some
    level a goto, even if its implicit.

    if(Bollocks)
    { // ELSE GOTO next '}'
    blah();
    }


    --
    Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Pancho on Fri Nov 22 10:35:47 2024
    On 21/11/2024 23:04, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do >>>>>> a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify >>>>> it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to >>>>> for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
    complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially
    if we
    cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of >>>> us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants >>>> of "BASIC" that have existed over time.


    For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
    it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of
    lack of training than a linguistic feature?

       I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
       device where you had to enter several kinds of data
       about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
       and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
       ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
       you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
       4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
       entire record, only one prompt at a time.

       Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
       an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
       keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
       compact.

    Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
    than jumps.

    Case statements...

    --
    For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
    very definition of slavery.

    Jonathan Swift

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 22 10:45:58 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
    On 21/11/2024 19:48, rbowman wrote:
    I never understood the goto hate that Dijkstra had. It could be used
    to produce hideous code but has valid uses. I'm amused by the
    syntactic sugar used by many languages to conceal what is obviously a
    goto under the hood amd of you dig far enough you get down to JMP,
    JNE, and similar opcodes.

    Yup.

    The real hate was code that was hard to read and debug because flow
    jumped about all over the place.

    But you need to have conditional code execution and that means at some
    level a goto, even if its implicit.

    if(Bollocks)
    { // ELSE GOTO next '}'
    blah();
    }

    Dijkstra’s complaints were about the difficulty of understanding code
    made of a spaghetti heap of explicit gotos. He was quite happy with if/while/etc - his complaint is certainly not about conditional
    execution etc.

    He didn’t model the higher-level constructions in terms of implicit
    gotos but that’s not really relevant to general discussion.

    The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup
    code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s
    going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
    reader sees.

    For selective, conditional and repeated execution there are generally
    cleaner ways to write it, and use of gotos for these purposes is
    generally a hint that the code needs some work. More recent languages
    have other options (‘defer’, ‘finally’, destructors, etc).

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Fri Nov 22 12:30:07 2024
    On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup
    code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s
    going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
    reader sees.

    +1
    GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)

    For selective, conditional and repeated execution there are generally
    cleaner ways to write it, and use of gotos for these purposes is
    generally a hint that the code needs some work. More recent languages
    have other options (‘defer’, ‘finally’, destructors, etc).

    +2
    --

    --
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
    gospel of envy.

    Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

    Winston Churchill

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 22 13:37:43 2024
    On 11/22/24 10:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 21/11/2024 23:04, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do >>>>>>> a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
    qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my
    go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
    complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially
    if we
    cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every
    one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants >>>>> of "BASIC" that have existed over time.


    For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
    it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign
    of lack of training than a linguistic feature?

       I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
       device where you had to enter several kinds of data
       about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
       and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
       ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
       you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
       4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
       entire record, only one prompt at a time.

       Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
       an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
       keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
       compact.

    Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
    than jumps.

    Case statements...

    In OO, switch/case statements were deprecated too :-) I can't remember
    exactly why. I think it was because we were supposed to use polymorphism instead.

    In practical project terms, giant switch statements were a pain in the
    bum, because everyone would constantly be modifying that bit of code and
    you would get source code merge conflicts.

    It's coming back to me, VAX BASIC programs would be designed to consist
    of a massive "do processing" loop, which would consist of a big switch statement containing a case for every type of report or behaviour the
    program was supposed to handle. Every time a new report was added, the
    switch had a case added.

    Then it reminds me of the Gang of Four visitor pattern, every time I saw
    it, it took me a whole morning's thinking energy to understand that it
    was just a simple switch :-).

    Coding is always a balance between flexibility and clarity, there is no
    "right" answer. You can make code more flexible by adding another layer
    of indirection, but it becomes harder to understand.

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 22 18:53:28 2024
    On 2024-11-22, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup
    code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s
    going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
    reader sees.

    +1
    GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes
    a single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
    (all such variables are global and I initialize them to NULL
    or whatever other value is appropriate). Then, if the error
    message argument is not NULL, it displays and/or logs the
    message and calls exit() with a non-zero argument. If the
    error message argument is NULL, it simply calls exit(0).
    I can call it from anywhere, and it guarantees an orderly shutdown.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 22 18:53:29 2024
    On 2024-11-22, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Anyhow, that was my neatest use of GOTO. Nothing
    really WRONG with such jumps, they're being done
    in the background by other forking logic anyway,
    it's just that if BADLY used you get unmaintainable
    spaghetti code.

    The undisciplined use of subroutine calls can be as bad as
    the undisciplined use of GOTOs. It's still spaghetti code,
    only now the strands are doubled. After all, what is a
    subroutine call other than a GOTO paired with a "come from"?

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Pancho on Fri Nov 22 19:30:24 2024
    On 22/11/2024 13:37, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/22/24 10:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 21/11/2024 23:04, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ?
    Should do
    a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
    qualify
    it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my >>>>>>> go-to
    for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
    complexity
    with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially >>>>>>> if we
    cross-posted over to a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every
    one of
    us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different
    variants
    of "BASIC" that have existed over time.


    For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).

    GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
    it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign
    of lack of training than a linguistic feature?

       I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
       device where you had to enter several kinds of data
       about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
       and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
       ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
       you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
       4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
       entire record, only one prompt at a time.

       Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
       an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
       keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
       compact.

    Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
    than jumps.

    Case statements...

    In OO, switch/case statements were deprecated too :-) I can't remember exactly why. I think it was because we were supposed to use polymorphism instead.

    In practical project terms, giant switch statements were a pain in the
    bum, because everyone would constantly be modifying that bit of code and
    you would get source code merge conflicts.

    It's coming back to me, VAX BASIC programs would be designed to consist
    of a massive "do processing" loop, which would consist of a big switch statement containing a case for every type of report or behaviour the
    program was supposed to handle. Every time a new report was added, the
    switch had a case added.

    Then it reminds me of the Gang of Four visitor pattern, every time I saw
    it, it took me a whole morning's thinking energy to understand that it
    was just a simple switch :-).

    Coding is always a balance between flexibility and clarity, there is no "right" answer. You can make code more flexible by adding another layer
    of indirection, but it becomes harder to understand.


    I echo that. The 'nogoto' was really a fool's rule. The wise man's
    guidance was 'make it clear what you are doing because you or someone
    else - may need to understand it in a years time'
    I dpnt find OO in general makes code easier to understand.





    --
    Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
    more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
    their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
    battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
    that they are dead.
    Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

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  • From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to Rich on Fri Nov 22 20:30:04 2024
    Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 02:48 this Thursday (GMT):
    candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
    Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 21:05 this Wednesday (GMT):
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ?
    Should do a survey .....

    Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
    qualify it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC
    is my go-to for hacking together quick utility applications in
    daily life, but I haven't touched old-school line-number
    spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built
    any application of real complexity with it. Bet more than a few
    people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to
    a.f.computers...

    Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one
    of us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different
    variants of "BASIC" that have existed over time.

    I haven't

    Which would make you a member of the remainder of "nearly every" (which
    does not encompass "all").

    It would also imply that you /may/ be one of the younger members posting
    in the group.


    Yeah, probably one of the youngest.
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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  • From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Fri Nov 22 20:40:03 2024
    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote at 18:53 this Friday (GMT):
    On 2024-11-22, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup
    code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s
    going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
    reader sees.

    +1
    GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes
    a single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
    (all such variables are global and I initialize them to NULL
    or whatever other value is appropriate). Then, if the error
    message argument is not NULL, it displays and/or logs the
    message and calls exit() with a non-zero argument. If the
    error message argument is NULL, it simply calls exit(0).
    I can call it from anywhere, and it guarantees an orderly shutdown.


    Unless you specifically use your own allocation wrapper that adds it to
    an internal list, how do you deallocate "all" the allocations you've
    done?
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Fri Nov 22 20:58:31 2024
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
    single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.

    But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.

    In *nix C code, a common convention is

    if («call failed»)
    {
    perror(«doing what»);
    exit(«nonzero error code»);
    } /*if*/

    <https://manpages.debian.org/3/perror.3.en.html>

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Fri Nov 22 20:55:25 2024
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:45:58 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    More recent languages have other options (‘defer’, ‘finally’, destructors, etc).

    And then there are “continuations”. You find these in Scheme, not so much in other languages. They are a generalized control construct. They can be
    used to implement looping-with-multiple-exits, exceptions and coroutines,
    but not (easily) for arbitrary gotos.

    In other words, you can consider them to be a generalized *structured*
    control construct.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Fri Nov 22 21:02:22 2024
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 13:37:43 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    In OO, switch/case statements were deprecated too :-) I can't remember exactly why. I think it was because we were supposed to use polymorphism instead.

    Switch/case expressions? With cases based on different types, perhaps?

    info_type = infoptr.contents.info_type
    infoptr = ct.cast \
    (
    infoptr,
    ct.POINTER
    (
    {
    FANOTIFY.EVENT_INFO_TYPE_FID : FANOTIFY.event_info_fid,
    FANOTIFY.EVENT_INFO_TYPE_DFID_NAME : FANOTIFY.event_info_fid,
    FANOTIFY.EVENT_INFO_TYPE_DFID : FANOTIFY.event_info_fid,
    FANOTIFY.EVENT_INFO_TYPE_PIDFD : FANOTIFY.event_info_pidfd,
    FANOTIFY.EVENT_INFO_TYPE_ERROR : FANOTIFY.event_info_error,
    }[info_type]
    )
    )
    additional.append(infoptr)
    if info_type == FANOTIFY.EVENT_INFO_TYPE_DFID_NAME :
    nameptr = ct.cast \
    (
    ct.cast(infoptr, ct.c_void_p).value
    +
    ct.sizeof(FANOTIFY.event_info_fid)
    +
    infoptr.contents.handle.handle_bytes,
    ct.c_char_p
    )
    additional.append(nameptr.value)
    #end if
    next += infolen
    remaining -= infolen

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 22 21:03:52 2024
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 19:30:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The 'nogoto' was really a fool's rule.

    I have never written a goto in (production) C code.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Fri Nov 22 21:04:50 2024
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:29 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    After all, what is a subroutine call other than a
    GOTO paired with a "come from"?

    A stack of call frames and return addresses.

    LIFO discipline applies.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 22 23:07:19 2024
    On 11/22/24 19:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Coding is always a balance between flexibility and clarity, there is
    no "right" answer. You can make code more flexible by adding another
    layer of indirection, but it becomes harder to understand.


    I echo that. The 'nogoto' was really a fool's rule. The wise man's
    guidance was 'make it clear what you are doing because you  or someone
    else - may need to understand it in a years time'
    I dpnt find OO in general makes code easier to understand.


    It's hard for me to understand reluctance to use OO. I learnt Smalltalk
    before I learnt C. I never did much development in C, mainly
    maintenance, but when I did it had an OO feel. When C++ came along I was
    very happy.

    To me saying you don't like OO is a bit like saying you don't like
    structs. Yes, instead of a struct you could use a block of memory and
    offsets, but why would you want to when you have a struct.

    I find it hard to imagine any other way of coding.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 23 00:44:34 2024
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.

    Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a little too unconventional these days ...

    Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sat Nov 23 01:08:16 2024
    On 11/23/24 00:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.

    Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a little too unconventional these days ...

    Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.

    No, not that I remember. Classes, Metaclasses, Single inheritance, very
    clean. I think Smalltalk was more a teaching tool rather than anything
    people used commercially. It was early enough in my development that OO concepts were like a first language to me. Perhaps if I had had a solid
    coding background in something like C before being introduced to OO, I
    would think differently.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 23 01:41:47 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 01:08:16 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/23/24 00:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.

    Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a
    little too unconventional these days ...

    Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.

    No, not that I remember. Classes, Metaclasses, Single inheritance, very clean.

    “Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would
    call “classmethods”. Python also has “metaclasses”, in the sense that classes, being first-class objects, must be instances of something -- and
    that something is the metaclass.

    Not sure if any other language has that meaning for “metaclass”.

    I think Smalltalk was more a teaching tool rather than anything
    people used commercially.

    I’m pretty sure it has been used commercially, back in the 1980s or
    so, maybe even the 1990s. I found a mention of a game framework
    originally written in Squeak <https://www.theregister.com/2023/03/23/croquet_for_unity/>, though
    the main news in the article is that it had been reworked in ... wait
    for it ... JavaScript.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 23 02:29:18 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 01:08:16 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/23/24 00:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.

    Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a
    little too unconventional these days ...

    Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.

    No, not that I remember. Classes, Metaclasses, Single inheritance, very clean. I think Smalltalk was more a teaching tool rather than anything
    people used commercially. It was early enough in my development that OO concepts were like a first language to me. Perhaps if I had had a solid coding background in something like C before being introduced to OO, I
    would think differently.

    A person's experience is definitely a factor. My first language was
    FORTRAN IV although I never did much with it. As microcontrollers started
    to appear in industrial applications I mostly worked wiht assembly or C, viewing C very much as an abstraction of assembly.

    The Boston branch of the IEEE Computer Society was quite active and I
    recall discussions of 'C with Classes' in the early '80s that eventually
    became C++.

    I think C++ was a premature birth. Stroustrup's first and second editions
    used objects sparingly compared to what many of the popular texts did when trying to illustrate inheritance, polymorphism, and so forth. The STL and Standard Library were years in the future so you had companies like
    Microsoft coming up with MFC. Then there was Stroustrup's little quip
    about C++ making it difficult to shoot yourself in the foot but when you
    did you blew your whole leg off.

    Esri used C++ for their Arc Objects API so I used C++ but it never became
    my favorite language and the C++ part was mostly manipulating the objects rather than overall structure. I use C# and Python so I don't dislike OO
    when used sparingly. I might even like C++ these days although I have no
    call to use it. When our department moved I looked through my dusty C++ reference books from 25 years ago and realized they are museum relics.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Fri Nov 22 23:57:58 2024
    On 11/22/24 12:51 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

    On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl  🙂

    Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language

    I've heard it called:

    "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"

    It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.


    Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is
    not unique :-)

    Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with
    the camel on the front. About two chapters in I
    said "WHY ???".

    I've had to tweak a few Perl scripts that for
    SOME reason other developers used in their apps,
    but it's NOT pleasant. As I remember "ZoneMinder"
    uses some Perl - and sometimes you need to tweak
    some lines to get best performance ......

    ZM is a pretty good app - but CAN be a horrible
    CPU/mem hog if you don't set everything perfectly.
    The docs are only JUST so good at explaining how
    to set everything perfectly ....

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Nov 23 05:31:51 2024
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:57:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with the camel on the
    front. About two chapters in I said "WHY ???".

    Perl was designed by a bunch of clever people, who understood the sort of features they wanted to add. The trouble is, they did it in kind of an ad-
    hoc way, so the syntax, like Topsy, “just growed”.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Nov 23 01:28:45 2024
    On 11/22/24 1:53 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-11-22, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup
    code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s
    going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
    reader sees.

    +1
    GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes
    a single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
    (all such variables are global and I initialize them to NULL
    or whatever other value is appropriate). Then, if the error
    message argument is not NULL, it displays and/or logs the
    message and calls exit() with a non-zero argument. If the
    error message argument is NULL, it simply calls exit(0).
    I can call it from anywhere, and it guarantees an orderly shutdown.


    Seems wise.

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to candycanearter07@candycanearter07.n on Sat Nov 23 07:09:06 2024
    On 2024-11-22, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote at 18:53 this Friday (GMT):

    On 2024-11-22, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup >>>> code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s >>>> going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
    reader sees.

    +1
    GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes
    a single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
    (all such variables are global and I initialize them to NULL
    or whatever other value is appropriate). Then, if the error
    message argument is not NULL, it displays and/or logs the
    message and calls exit() with a non-zero argument. If the
    error message argument is NULL, it simply calls exit(0).
    I can call it from anywhere, and it guarantees an orderly shutdown.

    Unless you specifically use your own allocation wrapper that adds it to
    an internal list, how do you deallocate "all" the allocations you've
    done?

    I've occasionally considered making a list, but never got around to implementing such a scheme. So it's the good old-fashioned way -
    free each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
    Even then, leaks would be unlikely, because I try to close or free
    resources as soon as I'm done with them, and the de-allocations
    in quit_cleanup() are mostly belt-and-suspenders code.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sat Nov 23 07:09:08 2024
    On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 19:30:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The 'nogoto' was really a fool's rule.

    I have never written a goto in (production) C code.

    I have two in a large old production program - well, actually
    12, but there are only two target labels. Someday I might
    get around to re-working the code to eliminate them, but
    there's always something else to do first, and that part
    of the program has been stable for 30 years.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Nov 23 07:44:35 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
    each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent: calling it on a NULL pointer is a harmless no-op, so there is no need to check for NULL before calling it. So my standard technique (simplifying somewhat) is

    * Initialize all dynamic storage pointers in this scope to NULL
    * Do the various allocations, processing, etc
    * Unconditionally free() all dynamic storage pointers in this scope,
    allocated or not.

    This keeps the code as simple as I can make it.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Nov 23 07:45:14 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
    single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.

    But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.

    Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like to explicitly free everything come hell or high water.

    That actually slows down program termination.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sat Nov 23 08:26:26 2024
    On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 01:08:16 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/23/24 00:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.

    Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a
    little too unconventional these days ...

    Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.

    No, not that I remember. Classes, Metaclasses, Single inheritance, very
    clean.

    “Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would call “classmethods”.

    I think the Smalltalk idea of treating classes as objects, is the
    opposite of a hack. It is a very clean and simple idea. Even today I
    still think metaclasses are the easiest way to imagine some behaviour of
    OO languages.

    I would say C++ static methods and static variables are a hack. C# type reflection is a hack. Just as value types are a hack in C#. Things that
    are sensible for performance reasons, but that add complexity.

    It was easy to see where Python metaclasses came from.


    Python also has “metaclasses”, in the sense that
    classes, being first-class objects, must be instances of something -- and that something is the metaclass.

    Not sure if any other language has that meaning for “metaclass”.

    I think Smalltalk was more a teaching tool rather than anything
    people used commercially

    I’m pretty sure it has been used commercially, back in the 1980s or
    so, maybe even the 1990s.

    Probably, just as some people program in Haskell or Prolog.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sat Nov 23 09:05:55 2024
    On 11/23/24 07:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
    each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:

    It isn't idempotent.

    calling it on a NULL
    pointer is a harmless no-op,

    OK it is idempotent on NULL, but not in general.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 23 08:52:20 2024
    On 11/23/24 02:29, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 01:08:16 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/23/24 00:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.

    Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a
    little too unconventional these days ...

    Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.

    No, not that I remember. Classes, Metaclasses, Single inheritance, very
    clean. I think Smalltalk was more a teaching tool rather than anything
    people used commercially. It was early enough in my development that OO
    concepts were like a first language to me. Perhaps if I had had a solid
    coding background in something like C before being introduced to OO, I
    would think differently.

    A person's experience is definitely a factor. My first language was
    FORTRAN IV although I never did much with it.

    FORTRAN 77 was probably the first language I ever read about, but for
    some reason it never went further than superficial reading.

    As microcontrollers started
    to appear in industrial applications I mostly worked wiht assembly or C, viewing C very much as an abstraction of assembly.

    The Boston branch of the IEEE Computer Society was quite active and I
    recall discussions of 'C with Classes' in the early '80s that eventually became C++.


    Did it?, there was Objective C too.

    I think C++ was a premature birth. Stroustrup's first and second editions used objects sparingly compared to what many of the popular texts did when trying to illustrate inheritance, polymorphism, and so forth.

    I'm not sure which version I read, the grey one. It was Ok, not K&R
    quality, but still readable.

    The STL and
    Standard Library were years in the future so you had companies like
    Microsoft coming up with MFC.

    We used the RougeWave library for container classes.

    Then there was Stroustrup's little quip
    about C++ making it difficult to shoot yourself in the foot but when you
    did you blew your whole leg off.

    Esri used C++ for their Arc Objects API so I used C++ but it never became
    my favorite language and the C++ part was mostly manipulating the objects rather than overall structure.

    I genuinely like OO design. It is the way I naturally think of program structure. It maps well to designing service orientated architectures.

    I use C# and Python so I don't dislike OO
    when used sparingly. I might even like C++ these days although I have no
    call to use it. When our department moved I looked through my dusty C++ reference books from 25 years ago and realized they are museum relics.

    I haven't used C++ properly for about 25 years.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Nov 23 09:10:01 2024
    On 11/23/24 07:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
    single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.

    But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.

    In *nix C code, a common convention is

    if («call failed»)
    {
    perror(«doing what»);
    exit(«nonzero error code»);
    } /*if*/

    <https://manpages.debian.org/3/perror.3.en.html>

    Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like
    to explicitly free everything come hell or high water.


    I can see that is nice, to understand what you have, but it sounds like
    hard work.

    However there are some resource you do need to explicitly
    free/release/close, some database locks for instance.

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sat Nov 23 10:16:46 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
    each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:

    It is not. Freeing the same non-null pointer twice is a bug (and a
    common source of vulnerabilities).

    calling it on a NULL pointer is a harmless no-op, so there is no need
    to check for NULL before calling it. So my standard technique
    (simplifying somewhat) is

    ‘free() and null out all copies of the pointer that can ever reach
    free() in the future’ is idempotent, if you can get it right (which is usually not too hard in a well-organized program).

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Nov 23 11:16:09 2024
    On 23/11/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/22/24 12:51 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

    On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl  🙂

    Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language

    I've heard it called:

       "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"

    It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.


      Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is
      not unique  :-)

      Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with
      the camel on the front. About two chapters in I
      said "WHY ???".

    I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in it, and
    thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals as a
    hobby...

    If a script gets that big it should be in a different language altogether.

    It reminds me of a cartoon picture of a nerd saying 'I use a Unix based operating system. My computers crash about as often as I get laid'


    --
    “when things get difficult you just have to lie”

    ― Jean Claud Jüncker

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Nov 23 11:20:59 2024
    On 23/11/2024 07:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-11-22, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote at 18:53 this Friday (GMT):

    On 2024-11-22, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup >>>>> code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s >>>>> going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the >>>>> reader sees.

    +1
    GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes
    a single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
    (all such variables are global and I initialize them to NULL
    or whatever other value is appropriate). Then, if the error
    message argument is not NULL, it displays and/or logs the
    message and calls exit() with a non-zero argument. If the
    error message argument is NULL, it simply calls exit(0).
    I can call it from anywhere, and it guarantees an orderly shutdown.

    Unless you specifically use your own allocation wrapper that adds it to
    an internal list, how do you deallocate "all" the allocations you've
    done?

    I've occasionally considered making a list, but never got around to implementing such a scheme. So it's the good old-fashioned way -
    free each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
    Even then, leaks would be unlikely, because I try to close or free
    resources as soon as I'm done with them, and the de-allocations
    in quit_cleanup() are mostly belt-and-suspenders code.

    If you never explicitly allocated memory you can, in C, do a longjmp()
    back to a stack that implicity frees any local variables.

    I dislike the use of malloc and friends in daemons that run forever.
    Exiting a program cleans up anyway, Its programs where you are
    repeatedly allocating and deallocating memory that give problems. Usual
    due to 'unusual' exits that fail to clean up in the normal way.





    --
    “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 23 11:25:02 2024
    On 23/11/2024 08:26, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    I’m pretty sure it has been used commercially, back in the 1980s or
    so, maybe even the 1990s.

    Probably, just as some people program in Haskell or Prolog.

    It has occasionally. Back in the day when I scanned job adverts 'must be proficient in smalltalk has been seen.

    But the reason why the majority of work was 'experienced in C Unix and
    vi' was on the job was because it was positive feedback loop. The more
    people used it the more people learnt it in order to maintain and extend it.

    --
    The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
    its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

    Anon.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 23 11:30:59 2024
    On 23/11/2024 08:52, Pancho wrote:
    I genuinely like OO design. It is the way I naturally think of program structure. It maps well to designing service orientated architectures.

    Oh, in terms of keeping things that are closely related in the same
    place syntactically, its great.

    But the syntax so used is weird arcane and occasionally crap.
    You don't need C++ to write object oriented code in.

    And thereby hangs the problem. Its Yet Another Computer Scientist
    creating a language that tries to enforce an approach, rather than
    providing tools to make such an approach possible *if you want it*.

    far too much stress on the language and none at all on the software *engineering* approach of problem analysis, decomposition,
    documentation, construction of code and subsequent stress testing.



    --
    I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you
    can avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if
    you can. There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed
    whole academic subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it.

    Sir Roger Scruton

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 23 11:31:51 2024
    On 23/11/2024 09:05, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/23/24 07:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
    each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:

    It isn't idempotent.

    calling it on a NULL
    pointer is a harmless no-op,

    OK it is idempotent on NULL, but not in general.

    As I discovered to my shame. freeing the same pointer twice is not
    harmless.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Sat Nov 23 11:34:08 2024
    On 23/11/2024 10:16, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
    each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:

    It is not. Freeing the same non-null pointer twice is a bug (and a
    common source of vulnerabilities).

    calling it on a NULL pointer is a harmless no-op, so there is no need
    to check for NULL before calling it. So my standard technique
    (simplifying somewhat) is

    ‘free() and null out all copies of the pointer that can ever reach
    free() in the future’ is idempotent, if you can get it right (which is usually not too hard in a well-organized program).

    I had to read that three times to understand what you said there.

    A comma after the first free() would have helped.:-)

    Otherwise +100


    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Sat Nov 23 19:16:02 2024
    On 2024-11-23, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
    each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:

    It is not. Freeing the same non-null pointer twice is a bug (and a
    common source of vulnerabilities).

    calling it on a NULL pointer is a harmless no-op, so there is no need
    to check for NULL before calling it. So my standard technique
    (simplifying somewhat) is

    ‘free() and null out all copies of the pointer that can ever reach
    free() in the future’ is idempotent, if you can get it right (which is usually not too hard in a well-organized program).

    +1

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 23 19:16:06 2024
    On 2024-11-23, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 23/11/2024 09:05, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/23/24 07:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
    each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:

    It isn't idempotent.

    calling it on a NULL
    pointer is a harmless no-op,

    OK it is idempotent on NULL, but not in general.

    As I discovered to my shame. freeing the same pointer twice is not
    harmless.

    And, IIRC, trying to fclose() a NULL file pointer doesn't work
    too well. I like to use a consistent technique that works across
    all sorts of resources: memory, file pointers, window handles,
    menu handles, etc. But that's just me being too lazy to memorize
    a bunch of different cases when a single consistent technique
    will work anywhere with neglegible overhead.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sat Nov 23 19:16:04 2024
    On 2024-11-23, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
    single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.

    But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.

    Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like to explicitly free
    everything come hell or high water.

    That actually slows down program termination.

    The microsecond or two that is wasted is far less than the
    debugging time needed when a shortcut goes wrong. And who
    knows, you might someday port the program to a different
    environment (hardware, OS, or even language) where the
    rules are just different enough to cause lots of headaches.

    Different strokes for different folks. Some people like to
    write the equivalent of a Ferrari, that goes really fast but
    is finicky and might lose a wheel if it hits rough terrain.
    My code is more like an ATV: a bit slower, not nearly as
    pretty, but it'll go anywhere and not break down when things
    aren't perfect.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 23 19:16:00 2024
    On 2024-11-23, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    On 11/23/24 07:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
    single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.

    But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.

    In *nix C code, a common convention is

    if («call failed»)
    {
    perror(«doing what»);
    exit(«nonzero error code»);
    } /*if*/

    <https://manpages.debian.org/3/perror.3.en.html>

    Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like
    to explicitly free everything come hell or high water.

    I can see that is nice, to understand what you have,
    but it sounds like hard work.

    It's not, actually. Think of it like a mechanic methodically
    putting all his tools back where they belong in the box when
    he's done, rather than leaving them lying around the shop.

    However there are some resource you do need to explicitly
    free/release/close, some database locks for instance.

    Therefore, why go the bother of having to memorize which
    resources you have to explicity free, and which ones you
    don't? Get into the habit of freeing them all - you might
    avoid tedious debugging sessions when you forget which is which.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 23 19:28:46 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:52:20 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    Did it?, there was Objective C too.

    I don't know anything about Objective C. That was sort of an Apple thing
    and I've never worked on Apple hardware. I'm not trying to start a
    religious war but nobody ever wanted to pay me for developing on Apple.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 23 19:47:40 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:31:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 23/11/2024 09:05, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/23/24 07:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    So it's the good old-fashioned way - free each allocation one by one
    and hope you don't forget one.

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:

    It isn't idempotent.

    calling it on a NULL pointer is a harmless no-op,

    OK it is idempotent on NULL, but not in general.

    As I discovered to my shame. freeing the same pointer twice is not
    harmless.

    Our legacy software was developed on AIX. As it was moved to Linux we
    found that AIX had a much better sense of humor about accessing null
    pointers and other indiscretions.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 23 19:39:51 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:16:09 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 23/11/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/22/24 12:51 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

    On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl  🙂

    Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language

    I've heard it called:

       "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"

    It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.


      Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is not unique  :-)

      Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with the camel on the
      front. About two chapters in I said "WHY ???".

    I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in it, and
    thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals as a
    hobby...

    If a script gets that big it should be in a different language
    altogether.

    We had a couple of implementers who used Perl to automate their tasks. Programming disavowed all knowledge of them. As the years went by and the original people left they were handed down to successive generations as
    some sort of magic tools.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Nov 23 20:50:27 2024
    On 11/23/24 19:16, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-11-23, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    On 11/23/24 07:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
    single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.

    But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.

    In *nix C code, a common convention is

    if («call failed»)
    {
    perror(«doing what»);
    exit(«nonzero error code»);
    } /*if*/

    <https://manpages.debian.org/3/perror.3.en.html>

    Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like
    to explicitly free everything come hell or high water.

    I can see that is nice, to understand what you have,
    but it sounds like hard work.

    It's not, actually. Think of it like a mechanic methodically
    putting all his tools back where they belong in the box when
    he's done, rather than leaving them lying around the shop.


    It's more like carefully packing up a set of disposable tools into their disposable box, and then throwing the whole lot in the bin.


    However there are some resource you do need to explicitly
    free/release/close, some database locks for instance.

    Therefore, why go the bother of having to memorize which
    resources you have to explicity free, and which ones you
    don't? Get into the habit of freeing them all - you might
    avoid tedious debugging sessions when you forget which is which.


    It's hard for me to remember, because I'm so used to C# IDisposable
    "using" blocks, Java "try-with-resources", even try/catch/finally, etc.
    I see even C++ has "Resource Acquisition Is Initialization".

    My memory is that in practice you normally want to hold critical
    (unmanaged) resources open for as short at time as possible, and hence
    you tend to deal with disposal locally to allocation rather than having
    long lived stuff that needs to be cleaned on exit. But that is just a
    gut felling, I can't really remember enough to talk sensibly on the
    subject. I'm sure there are usecases where this doesn't in apply, but in general I think it does.

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  • From Louis Krupp@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 23 13:46:51 2024
    On 11/23/2024 4:16 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 23/11/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/22/24 12:51 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

    On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl  🙂

    Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language

    I've heard it called:

       "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"

    It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.


       Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is
       not unique  :-)

       Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with
       the camel on the front. About two chapters in I
       said "WHY ???".

    I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in it, and
    thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals as a
    hobby...

    If a script gets that big it should be in a different language altogether.

    There was a time when Python was still at version 1.something, Ruby
    hadn't been introduced, so the choices were limited to shells (like sh
    and its relatives), compiled languages like C, and Perl. Perl did the
    job, and it was enough like C to seem familiar, so here we are.

    It could have been worse.

    Louis

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 23 21:38:14 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:20:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I dislike the use of malloc and friends in daemons that run forever.

    It does take some discipline to make sure allocations are managed
    properly. Structured programming is your friend.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 23 21:36:38 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:26:26 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    “Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would >> call “classmethods”.

    I think the Smalltalk idea of treating classes as objects, is the
    opposite of a hack.

    That is an elegant idea, but I don’t think it’s what Smalltalk did -- not with metaclasses, anyway. If you look at the draft (abandoned) ANSI
    Smalltalk spec <https://github.com/johnwcowan/smalltalk-standard>, it says “because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior, metaclasses are not needed to provide the behavior of class objects”.

    This is in contrast to Python, where metaclasses are very much an integral
    part of the behaviour of classes.

    I would say C++ static methods and static variables are a hack.

    They are there to provide access to the innards of a private/protected
    class, without having to go through instances of that class. In a language
    like Python, which doesn’t bother constraining visibility to the innards
    of a class, they are just a convenience for grouping purposes, nothing
    more.

    Much more useful are classmethods, which get passed the class object
    itself as an argument. But that’s only possible in a dynamic language, not like C++, or even Java or C♯.

    C# type reflection is a hack.

    Is that like the convoluted “reflection” API in Java? (Mind you, most APIs in Java seem to be convoluted ...)

    Just as value types are a hack in C#. Things that
    are sensible for performance reasons, but that add complexity.

    Presumably, like Java, these mechanisms are there to avoid the need for
    the services of the full language compiler at runtime.

    It was easy to see where Python metaclasses came from.

    Not really. Which language used metaclasses to instantiate classes before Python?

    Python also does multiple inheritance. And it does it quite nicely,
    benefiting from lessons learned in earlier attempts at “linearization” (coming up with a consistent and minimally-surprising method resolution
    order across all the base classes).

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 23 21:57:09 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:16:09 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in [Perl],
    and thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals as a hobby...

    It’s amazing what you can find out when you RTFM. There was a command just the other day, in comp.lang.python I think it was, where somebody said “I’ve been using Python for 20 years, and I never knew that”.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Nov 23 21:48:20 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:16:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    And, IIRC, trying to fclose() a NULL file pointer doesn't work too well.

    Yes, that is an irritation. You need to create your own wrapper that
    ignores a “null” file descriptor value (e.g. -1).

    But then, you often need to create a wrapper object for managing file I/O anyway, and it is normally the object disposal routine that closes the
    file descriptors in this case. So if it is passed a NULL pointer to
    dispose, it doesn’t need to close any file descriptor or do anything else.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Sat Nov 23 21:45:19 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 10:16:46 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:

    It is not. Freeing the same non-null pointer twice is a bug (and a
    common source of vulnerabilities).

    That’s not what I meant by “idempotent”, and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so by default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Nov 23 21:40:19 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:16:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-11-23, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
    single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.

    But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.

    Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like to explicitly free
    everything come hell or high water.

    That actually slows down program termination.

    The microsecond or two that is wasted is far less than the debugging
    time needed when a shortcut goes wrong.

    Actually, thinking about it, there are some things -- shared memory
    sections come to mind -- that are not automatically freed when a process terminates. But everything else -- memory, open files, network connections
    -- will go away automatically.

    If you have those persistent things that you want to clean up, your
    technique won’t be reliable anyway.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sat Nov 23 23:48:59 2024
    On 11/23/24 21:36, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:26:26 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    “Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would >>> call “classmethods”.

    I think the Smalltalk idea of treating classes as objects, is the
    opposite of a hack.

    That is an elegant idea, but I don’t think it’s what Smalltalk did -- not with metaclasses, anyway. If you look at the draft (abandoned) ANSI
    Smalltalk spec <https://github.com/johnwcowan/smalltalk-standard>, it says “because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior, metaclasses are not needed to provide the behavior of class objects”.


    The full quote...

    "Class objects have no special significance other than having names and
    having behaviors and state distinct from that of
    their associated instance objects. Unlike classic Smalltalk definitions [Goldberg83], they are not defined as being the
    containers or implementers of their instances' behavior. The techniques
    used to implement the behavior of objects is left to
    the implementers. Finally, because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior, metaclasses are not needed
    to provide the behavior of class objects. "


    I learnt Smalltalk nearly 40 years ago, needless to say I learnt from
    the Goldberg Smalltalk-80 bluebook, not the current spec.

    To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
    implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour implemented?

    This is in contrast to Python, where metaclasses are very much an integral part of the behaviour of classes.

    I would say C++ static methods and static variables are a hack.

    They are there to provide access to the innards of a private/protected
    class,


    No, C++ static means class method or class variable.

    without having to go through instances of that class. In a language
    like Python, which doesn’t bother constraining visibility to the innards
    of a class, they are just a convenience for grouping purposes, nothing
    more.

    Much more useful are classmethods, which get passed the class object
    itself as an argument. But that’s only possible in a dynamic language, not like C++, or even Java or C♯.

    C# type reflection is a hack.

    Is that like the convoluted “reflection” API in Java? (Mind you, most APIs
    in Java seem to be convoluted ...)


    Dunno, I very rarely used it. It was more for things like generic
    serialisation to JSON.


    Just as value types are a hack in C#. Things that
    are sensible for performance reasons, but that add complexity.

    Presumably, like Java, these mechanisms are there to avoid the need for
    the services of the full language compiler at runtime.


    No they are there for performance, because you don't want to have to do
    a malloc and instance initialisation for every number you use.

    It was easy to see where Python metaclasses came from.

    Not really. Which language used metaclasses to instantiate classes before Python?


    erm!, erm! I know this one... Smalltalk. Smalltalk-80 if you want to be
    picky.

    Python also does multiple inheritance. And it does it quite nicely, benefiting from lessons learned in earlier attempts at “linearization” (coming up with a consistent and minimally-surprising method resolution
    order across all the base classes).

    Yeah, we discussed this in the past. I'm totally unconvinced of the desirability of complex multiple inheritance linearization.

    I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sun Nov 24 00:31:33 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:48:59 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
    implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour implemented?

    From further up: “A behavior is the set of methods used by an object to respond to messages”. Since a class itself has no such “behavior”, it doesn’t need to be an instance of anything, unlike Python.

    I would say C++ static methods and static variables are a hack.

    They are there to provide access to the innards of a private/protected
    class,

    No, C++ static means class method or class variable.

    There are no “class methods” or “class variables” as such in C++: in C terms, they have “static linkage”. The “class” part is just a visibility
    restriction.

    Just as value types are a hack in C#. Things that are sensible for
    performance reasons, but that add complexity.

    Presumably, like Java, these mechanisms are there to avoid the need for
    the services of the full language compiler at runtime.

    No they are there for performance, because you don't want to have to do
    a malloc and instance initialisation for every number you use.

    Ah, like the distinction between “primitive types” and “reference types”
    in Java.

    Python manages to avoid this arbitrary separation: “int”, “float”, “str”,
    “dict” etc are builtin types, and they are classes almost exactly like classes you define yourself; and in particular you can subclass them.

    Python also does multiple inheritance. And it does it quite nicely,
    benefiting from lessons learned in earlier attempts at “linearization” >> (coming up with a consistent and minimally-surprising method resolution
    order across all the base classes).

    Yeah, we discussed this in the past. I'm totally unconvinced of the desirability of complex multiple inheritance linearization.

    It is useful, for example, for creating enumerations of fixed instances of
    some particular base class. You inherit from both your particular base
    class as well as the generic “enum.Enum” base class, to get suitable properties of both.

    I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.

    Python manages to provide a small, powerful language core that includes features that, for example, Java and C♯ had to leave out: lexical binding, functions and classes as first-class objects, operator overloads, arbitrary-precision integers, list comprehensions, dictionary and set expressions, descriptors, metaclasses ... this then allows for library
    modules to build on this core to provide powerful facilities in the form
    of “domain-specific (sub)languages” (DSLs) that are specialized to particular problem areas.

    For example, you don’t need “generics” or “templates”, à la Java/C++ etc,
    because you can define a “class factory” function that constructs new classes at runtime.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 23 20:17:16 2024
    On 11/23/24 6:16 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 23/11/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/22/24 12:51 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

    On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I take it you're also not a fan of Perl  🙂

    Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language

    I've heard it called:

       "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"

    It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.


       Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is
       not unique  :-)

       Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with
       the camel on the front. About two chapters in I
       said "WHY ???".

    I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in it, and
    thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals as a
    hobby...

    If a script gets that big it should be in a different language altogether.


    Well .... MAYbe they caught "The Joy Of Perl" - though
    it's hard to imagine such a thing ......

    I've seen huge scripts in Bash as well. There was someone
    in these groups who always said they didn't need 'C' or
    Python or whatever because, no matter, they could and
    wanted to do it with Bash and any other approach proved
    you were stupid and incompetent.

    But yea ... there soon comes a point where you ought
    to implement in a better, more proper, language.
    Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
    reason than that it's generally comprehensible. They
    kept expanding Bash with more obscure squiggles and
    bars and "two spaces, not one" almost to the point
    where you may as well be using BrainFuck or similar.

    The biggest Bash script I ever did was about 300 lines,
    for backing up all the drives shared on the system. The
    saving point was that what I was doing was very 'modular',
    maybe 25 lines for each share, almost perfectly repeated
    on down the tree. Confirm share exists, try to create
    a tempshare, confirm that exists, read file, encrypt
    file, fix-up the tree, transfer file ..." that
    sort of thing. Copy, tweak and insert module if some new
    share had been made.

    But I soon re-did it in Python. MUCH better.


    It reminds me of a cartoon picture of a nerd saying 'I use a Unix based operating system. My computers crash about as often as I get laid'

    It's tough life being a nerd.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sat Nov 23 20:23:47 2024
    On 11/23/24 12:31 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:57:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with the camel on the
    front. About two chapters in I said "WHY ???".

    Perl was designed by a bunch of clever people, who understood the sort of features they wanted to add. The trouble is, they did it in kind of an ad- hoc way, so the syntax, like Topsy, “just growed”.

    "Feature creep" ... you keep having to figure out how
    to jam new stuff into the middle of the old stuff until
    you just have a total MESS. That's when you're supposed
    to totally re-do, or abandon, but Perl was already too
    well 'established' so they were stuck with what/how '
    came before.

    As the Frog Guy said - "It's a TRAP !"

    "Organic evolution" is fine - but sometimes you wind up
    with a platypus.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Nov 24 02:06:04 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:23:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    "Feature creep" ... you keep having to figure out how to jam new
    stuff into the middle of the old stuff until you just have a total
    MESS. That's when you're supposed to totally re-do, or abandon, but
    Perl was already too well 'established' so they were stuck with
    what/how ' came before.

    Which is where the Perl 6 project came in. But it took so long to come to fruition, and was such a radical change, that it was decided to stop
    calling it “Perl” altogether, and make it an entirely new language -- “Raku”, I think is the name now.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Nov 24 05:14:31 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:23:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    "Feature creep" ... you keep having to figure out how to jam new
    stuff into the middle of the old stuff until you just have a total
    MESS. That's when you're supposed to totally re-do, or abandon, but
    Perl was already too well 'established' so they were stuck with
    what/how ' came before.

    You call it Raku and go post-apocalyptic. With Wall's religious background
    he uses apocalypse in its original meaning but I think most of the world
    takes it it the walking dead context.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sun Nov 24 05:01:30 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:48:59 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.

    For many things it provides a convenient level of abstraction if
    performance isn't a major concern. It's not so much the language itself as
    that the language has become very popular and the range of modules has
    greatly expanded.

    For example, the Esri Python API makes common GIS manipulations less
    painful than using C++. Similarly if you're into machine learning while TensorFlow and PyTorch have C++ bindings almost all tutorials will use
    Python. In data science Python is starting to overtake R and is actually
    faster for some operations. For REST APIs you have flask, django, and
    several other frameworks.

    For embedded work as Arm microprocessors have become the norm and SRAM has greatly increased a Python interpreter, either MicroPython or
    CircuitPython can be loaded on the device. Again you can work in C++ and
    get greater speed and control but it comes at a cost. Controlling a servo
    with PWM is easy in Python. Doing it in C++ means you need to determine
    the slice and channel for the GPIO pin, decide what to load into the
    counter to get the desired frequency from the 125 MHz clock,determine if
    you need to use the divider for lower frequencies, and make other
    decisions.

    Using Python means you get uniformity across many disciplines and it's
    good enough for most things. It could have been Perl if it hadn't gotten
    stuck in the tar pits, or Ruby, or Go but from whatever twist of fate
    occurred it was Python.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Nov 24 05:26:06 2024
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:17:16 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    But yea ... there soon comes a point where you ought to implement in
    a better, more proper, language. Whatever it is, at least use Python
    if for no other reason than that it's generally comprehensible. They
    kept expanding Bash with more obscure squiggles and bars and "two
    spaces, not one" almost to the point where you may as well be using
    BrainFuck or similar.

    I'm not sure how I feel about the _ and *_ introduced in Python 3. I
    suppose it's handy. Then there is the whole dunder etiquette and the
    'please don't screw with this but I can't stop you' idea.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sun Nov 24 00:16:25 2024
    On 11/23/24 9:06 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:23:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    "Feature creep" ... you keep having to figure out how to jam new
    stuff into the middle of the old stuff until you just have a total
    MESS. That's when you're supposed to totally re-do, or abandon, but
    Perl was already too well 'established' so they were stuck with
    what/how ' came before.

    Which is where the Perl 6 project came in. But it took so long to come to fruition, and was such a radical change, that it was decided to stop
    calling it “Perl” altogether, and make it an entirely new language -- “Raku”, I think is the name now.


    Yea, "Raku"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raku_(programming_language)

    https://dev.to/lizmat/migrating-perl-to-raku-1c47

    It is distant enough to kinda need a new name.

    But I'm still not gonna bother.

    It still seems to be a lang without any real POINT.
    Whatever it is, better and clearer in Python.

    There are a lot of langs like that - 95% like some
    older lang, but with more pointlessly weird syntax.

    There was one neat phrase I saw though - "In Perl 6, we
    decided it would be better to fix the language than
    fix the user" :-)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sun Nov 24 10:25:02 2024
    On 23/11/2024 23:48, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/23/24 21:36, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:26:26 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    “Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would >>>> call “classmethods”.

    I think the Smalltalk idea of treating classes as objects, is the
    opposite of a hack.

    That is an elegant idea, but I don’t think it’s what Smalltalk did -- not
    with metaclasses, anyway. If you look at the draft (abandoned) ANSI
    Smalltalk spec <https://github.com/johnwcowan/smalltalk-standard>, it
    says
    “because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior,
    metaclasses are not needed to provide the behavior of class objects”.


    The full quote...

    "Class objects have no special significance other than having names and having behaviors and state distinct from that of
    their associated instance objects. Unlike classic Smalltalk definitions [Goldberg83], they are not defined as being the
    containers or implementers of their instances' behavior. The techniques
    used to implement the behavior of objects is left to
    the implementers. Finally, because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior, metaclasses are not needed
    to provide the behavior of class objects. "



    I have already completely lost the plot. And the will to live.


    I learnt Smalltalk nearly 40 years ago, needless to say I learnt from
    the Goldberg Smalltalk-80 bluebook, not the current spec.

    To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
    implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour implemented?

    Mate I havent a clue what *any* of it means. It's classic compSci
    Gobbledygook.



    I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.

    --
    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
    rule.
    – H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sun Nov 24 12:46:46 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 10:16:46 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:

    It is not. Freeing the same non-null pointer twice is a bug (and a
    common source of vulnerabilities).

    That’s not what I meant by “idempotent”,

    It’s what everyone else means by it.

    and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so by default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.

    Glibc’s double free detection is heuristic, not 100% reliable.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to Louis Krupp on Sun Nov 24 14:33:39 2024
    Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> wrote:
    On 11/23/2024 4:16 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 23/11/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
       Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is    not unique  :-)

       Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with    the camel
    on the front. About two chapters in I    said "WHY ???".

    I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in it,
    and thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals
    as a hobby...

    If a script gets that big it should be in a different language
    altogether.

    There was a time when Python was still at version 1.something, Ruby
    hadn't been introduced, so the choices were limited to shells (like
    sh and its relatives), compiled languages like C, and Perl. Perl did
    the job, and it was enough like C to seem familiar, so here we are.

    This is the part that seems to get forgotten most often today, given
    the fog of history.

    There was a day, in the not so distant past, where one's choices for
    'language' for "custom ad. hoc. tool" on a Unix machine were:

    1) C
    2) /bin/sh
    3) Perl

    And, if "custom ad. hoc. tool" needed to do any manipulation of
    string data beyond the most trivial of output printf'ing then the code
    overhead in C for handing those strings vs. one line of Perl, meant
    Perl got called in to do the jobs that were "too much for /bin/sh" and
    "not performance critical enough (yet)" to write out all the needed C
    code.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Sun Nov 24 14:39:26 2024
    On 24/11/2024 14:37, Rich wrote:
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
    reason than that it's generally comprehensible.

    Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
    I despise Python.

    I can't say a good word for either, having never written a line in
    either, I am disnclined to learn.


    --
    WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Nov 24 14:37:12 2024
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
    reason than that it's generally comprehensible.

    Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
    I despise Python.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Nov 24 17:00:20 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 24/11/2024 14:37, Rich wrote:
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
    reason than that it's generally comprehensible.

    Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
    I despise Python.

    I can't say a good word for either, having never written a line in
    either, I am disnclined to learn.

    I've written quick scripts (and not so quick scripts for Perl) in both.

    I prefer neither, but given a choice between only Perl or Python would
    prefer Perl (unless Python had a required library interface available
    that Perl did not).

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Rich on Sun Nov 24 22:06:22 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024, Rich wrote:

    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
    reason than that it's generally comprehensible.

    Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
    I despise Python.


    I see no other way to resolve this but for you two to fight to the death.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Sun Nov 24 20:20:34 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 12:46:46 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so by
    default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.

    Glibc’s double free detection is heuristic, not 100% reliable.

    If that were true, the examples on the man page wouldn’t work.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Rich on Sun Nov 24 22:07:40 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024, Rich wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 24/11/2024 14:37, Rich wrote:
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
    reason than that it's generally comprehensible.

    Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
    I despise Python.

    I can't say a good word for either, having never written a line in
    either, I am disnclined to learn.

    I've written quick scripts (and not so quick scripts for Perl) in both.

    I prefer neither, but given a choice between only Perl or Python would
    prefer Perl (unless Python had a required library interface available
    that Perl did not).



    I dabbled a bit in perl out of curiosity and I find the following two
    points to be in its favour:

    1. Backwards compatibility. Much better than python.
    2. The built in documentation.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Nov 24 21:23:17 2024
    On 11/24/24 10:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    I have already completely lost the plot. And the will to live.


    I'm just making the point that it easier to understand OO if you start
    with a simple model. Just as it is easy to understand aspects of C if
    you know an assembler.

    It is easier to understand software concepts with baby steps, as opposed
    to getting thrown in at the deep end.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sun Nov 24 21:19:51 2024
    On 11/24/24 00:31, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:48:59 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
    implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour
    implemented?

    From further up: “A behavior is the set of methods used by an object to respond to messages”. Since a class itself has no such “behavior”, it doesn’t need to be an instance of anything, unlike Python.


    What?, Classes do have methods, e.g. they should handle a "new" message
    to create a new instance object of that class.

    In my previous post I didn't understand the meaning of implementation. Informally I think of implementation as my code, my definition of a
    function, as opposed to declaration. For instance I might say a class implements an interface. However I think the article you cited was using
    the word implementation to mean compiler. i.e. implementation of the
    Smalltalk language.

    From my perspective this is irrelevant, because my understanding of
    Smalltalk was conceptual. The Smalltalk-80 Bluebook spoke of classes as
    normal objects which had methods, responded to messages. The class which created instance objects of type class was a metaclass.

    The fact that a compiler/interpreter might handle (implementation
    detail) all class behaviour, as it does in C++, doesn't matter. It is
    helpful to think of classes as objects in their own right.

    The problem is that the OO model for C++ is more complex. It is easy to
    not be able to see the wood for the tress. That is why I was lucky to
    have the Smalltalk conceptual model before being introduced to C++,

    I would say C++ static methods and static variables are a hack.

    They are there to provide access to the innards of a private/protected
    class,

    No, C++ static means class method or class variable.

    There are no “class methods” or “class variables” as such in C++: in C
    terms, they have “static linkage”. The “class” part is just a visibility
    restriction.


    static has many usages in C++. You seem to be confusing the C definition
    of a static variable with internal linkage, with the idea of a C++ class
    static member variable or method.


    Just as value types are a hack in C#. Things that are sensible for
    performance reasons, but that add complexity.

    Presumably, like Java, these mechanisms are there to avoid the need for
    the services of the full language compiler at runtime.

    No they are there for performance, because you don't want to have to do
    a malloc and instance initialisation for every number you use.

    Ah, like the distinction between “primitive types” and “reference types”
    in Java.


    Possibly. Reference types are like pointers. Value types can live only
    on the stack.

    Python manages to avoid this arbitrary separation: “int”, “float”, “str”,
    “dict” etc are builtin types, and they are classes almost exactly like classes you define yourself; and in particular you can subclass them.


    In practice I didn't care. Generics solved the main problem of using
    value types in container classes, without having to box them.

    Python also does multiple inheritance. And it does it quite nicely,
    benefiting from lessons learned in earlier attempts at “linearization” >>> (coming up with a consistent and minimally-surprising method resolution
    order across all the base classes).

    Yeah, we discussed this in the past. I'm totally unconvinced of the
    desirability of complex multiple inheritance linearization.

    It is useful, for example, for creating enumerations of fixed instances of some particular base class. You inherit from both your particular base
    class as well as the generic “enum.Enum” base class, to get suitable properties of both.


    Like an interface, IEnumerable (Chsarp), Iterable(Java)? or are you back
    to some special use for Enums.

    I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.

    Python manages to provide a small, powerful language core that includes features that, for example, Java and C♯ had to leave out: lexical binding, functions and classes as first-class objects, operator overloads, arbitrary-precision integers, list comprehensions, dictionary and set expressions, descriptors, metaclasses ... this then allows for library modules to build on this core to provide powerful facilities in the form
    of “domain-specific (sub)languages” (DSLs) that are specialized to particular problem areas.


    Python is very pretty, the problem is that I tried to write some
    programs using it and the libraries were buggy. With CSharp and Java the standardish libraries seem more reliable.

    For example, you don’t need “generics” or “templates”, à la Java/C++ etc,
    because you can define a “class factory” function that constructs new classes at runtime.

    Yeah, I find not having explicit types very difficult to handle. Maybe
    that is prejudice, maybe not.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Nov 24 21:29:05 2024
    On 11/24/24 05:01, rbowman wrote:

    Using Python means you get uniformity across many disciplines and it's
    good enough for most things. It could have been Perl if it hadn't gotten stuck in the tar pits, or Ruby, or Go but from whatever twist of fate occurred it was Python.

    My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about it
    either. She then moved onto Go. But that was doing big web-server stuff.
    Large scale Docker setups, maybe Kubernetes.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sun Nov 24 22:36:32 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:19:51 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/24/24 00:31, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:48:59 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
    implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour
    implemented?

    From further up: “A behavior is the set of methods used by an object
    to respond to messages”. Since a class itself has no such “behavior”, >> it doesn’t need to be an instance of anything, unlike Python.

    What?, Classes do have methods, e.g. they should handle a "new" message
    to create a new instance object of that class.

    Looking again at that draft spec, “new” is handled as a special case.
    If you look at the syntax for a class definition, the initializer
    (section 3.4.3) is not defined as a method that handles a message
    named “new”, it is just an unnamed block.

    This is quite different from Python, where “__new__” is a classmethod,
    and you can customize class-instantiation behaviour by defining a
    custom method by that name.

    This on top of the extra possibilities afforded by metaclasses.
    Metaclasses are classes (and hence objects) in their own right, and
    have their own method/member definitions.

    The fact that a compiler/interpreter might handle (implementation
    detail) all class behaviour, as it does in C++, doesn't matter. It is
    helpful to think of classes as objects in their own right.

    Not really. Consider C++, where templates are handled in a separate
    language that only exists at compile time, separate from the regular
    language code that executes at run time.

    In Python, there is no separate language for generics, since classes
    (and functions) are objects, and all object construction happens at
    run time.

    (Code is generated at compile time, of course; but an object consists
    of data as well as a pointer to shared code, and the data is
    constructed at run time.)

    Yeah, we discussed this in the past. I'm totally unconvinced of the
    desirability of complex multiple inheritance linearization.

    It is useful, for example, for creating enumerations of fixed instances
    of some particular base class. You inherit from both your particular
    base class as well as the generic “enum.Enum” base class, to get
    suitable properties of both.

    Like an interface, IEnumerable (Chsarp), Iterable(Java)? or are you back
    to some special use for Enums.

    Here’s one example, a decoder for MagicaVoxel files I was playing with
    a while back. An enumeration for the available material properties:

    class MATT_PROPS(enum.IntEnum) :
    PLASTIC = 0
    ROUGHNESS = 1
    SPECULAR = 2
    IOR = 3
    ATTEN = 4
    POWER = 5
    GLOW = 6
    ISTOTALPOWER = 7

    @property
    def has_value(self) :
    return \
    self != type(self).ISTOTALPOWER
    #end has_value

    #end MATT_PROPS

    used in decoding and extraction of same:

    ...if chunk.id == b"MATT" :
    chunk.assert_no_children()
    if len(chunk.content) < 16 :
    raise Failure("MATT chunk initial too short")
    #end if
    matt_id, matt_type, matt_weight, prop_mask = struct.unpack("<IIfI", chunk.content[:16])
    props_present = set(celf.MATT_PROPS(i) for i in range(32) if 1 << i & prop_mask != 0)
    value_props = list(i for i in sorted(props_present) if i.has_value)
    if len(chunk.content) < 16 + len(value_props) * 4 :
    raise Failure("MATT chunk rest too short")
    #end if
    propvalues = struct.unpack("<" + "f" * len(value_props), chunk.content[16:])
    props = dict(zip(value_props, propvalues))
    for i in props_present :
    if not i.has_value :
    props[i] = None
    #end if
    #end for
    self.materials.append \
    (
    celf.Material
    (
    id = matt_id,
    type = celf.MATT_TYPE(matt_type),
    weight = matt_weight,
    props = props
    )
    )
    #end if

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sun Nov 24 22:37:25 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:29:05 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about it either.

    What was her previous experience? Not (splutter) PHP, by any chance?

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Nov 24 19:35:57 2024
    On 11/24/24 12:01 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:48:59 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.

    For many things it provides a convenient level of abstraction if
    performance isn't a major concern. It's not so much the language itself as that the language has become very popular and the range of modules has greatly expanded.

    For example, the Esri Python API makes common GIS manipulations less
    painful than using C++. Similarly if you're into machine learning while TensorFlow and PyTorch have C++ bindings almost all tutorials will use Python. In data science Python is starting to overtake R and is actually faster for some operations. For REST APIs you have flask, django, and
    several other frameworks.

    For embedded work as Arm microprocessors have become the norm and SRAM has greatly increased a Python interpreter, either MicroPython or
    CircuitPython can be loaded on the device. Again you can work in C++ and
    get greater speed and control but it comes at a cost. Controlling a servo with PWM is easy in Python. Doing it in C++ means you need to determine
    the slice and channel for the GPIO pin, decide what to load into the
    counter to get the desired frequency from the 125 MHz clock,determine if
    you need to use the divider for lower frequencies, and make other
    decisions.

    Using Python means you get uniformity across many disciplines and it's
    good enough for most things. It could have been Perl if it hadn't gotten stuck in the tar pits, or Ruby, or Go but from whatever twist of fate occurred it was Python.

    For almost anything, it's good enough - or more than
    good enough. The large number of libs has left little
    beyond its (relatively easy) reach. It's also READABLE,
    nothing too mysterious about the syntax or defining/using
    vars and such.

    Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling
    depth thing ... get six or eight levels into something
    and it's a total bitch to spot what's inside what
    without using comments.

    However it's NOT as fast as the true compiled langs.
    Yea, yea, there's Python compilers - turn it into 'C' -
    but with sometimes difficult barriers and the final exe
    tends to be pretty fat - VERY VERY fat if you get past
    version issues by encapsulating all the needed libs
    inside the exe.

    In any case, it's become the "new BASIC" for good reasons
    and I don't see that being changed anytime soon. It's
    in *everything* now from microcontrollers on up.

    I never learned it until M$ started sneaking it into
    their OS junk. "What's a .py ???". The good side of
    that is that it was right near the v2 -> v3 transition
    and I decided to learn the 'new and improved'.

    Anyway, I do full apps and utils in Python and almost
    always use it to proto stuff before re-writing in 'C'
    or Pascal.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Mon Nov 25 00:36:48 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ...
    get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot
    what's inside what without using comments.

    So use the comments. That’s what I do.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Pancho on Mon Nov 25 01:46:06 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:23:17 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I'm just making the point that it easier to understand OO if you start
    with a simple model. Just as it is easy to understand aspects of C if
    you know an assembler.

    https://go.dev/doc/faq#Is_Go_an_object-oriented_language

    Just saying...

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Pancho on Mon Nov 25 01:43:19 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:29:05 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/24/24 05:01, rbowman wrote:

    Using Python means you get uniformity across many disciplines and it's
    good enough for most things. It could have been Perl if it hadn't
    gotten stuck in the tar pits, or Ruby, or Go but from whatever twist of
    fate occurred it was Python.

    My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about it either. She then moved onto Go. But that was doing big web-server stuff. Large scale Docker setups, maybe Kubernetes.

    Horses for courses. I tasked a new hire with developing an interface to Spidertracks.

    https://www.spidertracks.com/

    I gave him the requirements but didn't specify a language so he did it
    with Go. No big deal other than having to set up a Go environment on the
    build machine. Go is what you would expect from three C programmers who
    hate C++ and I mean that it a good way. Not sure why they put the
    parameter type after the parameter but I can live with that. It's hanging
    in there:

    https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

    for whatever worth the index has.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 25 02:12:29 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 22:07:40 +0100, D wrote:

    I dabbled a bit in perl out of curiosity and I find the following two
    points to be in its favour:

    1. Backwards compatibility. Much better than python.

    Well, that's true. Looking over at the bookshelf I see 'Programming the
    Perl DBI' from 2000. It probably works just as well in 5.40.0 as it did in 5.6.0.

    https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/programming-the-perl/1565926994/

    There isn't a newer version. That's remarkable for close to 25 years. Most
    of my other books from 2000 are suitable for propping up mismatched table
    legs.

    I did appreciate the concept of a uniform DBI with specific DBDs in the
    back end.

    2. The built in documentation.

    Python offers a lot of built in documentation, assuming the modules follow
    the PEP guidelines.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Mon Nov 25 02:41:52 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I never learned it until M$ started sneaking it into their OS junk.
    "What's a .py ???". The good side of that is that it was right near
    the v2 -> v3 transition and I decided to learn the 'new and
    improved'.

    Good timing. Esri's ArcPy up until Esri 11 was 2.7 so I stayed with it for non-Esri scripts. The transition from 10.8 to 11 was bloody, not only for
    going to Python 3.8. Being the 500 lb. gorilla in the GIS field they could
    say "Yeah, this is going to break a lot of stuff you've been doing for
    years. Suck it up." Like Windows 10, Esri 10.8 went on extended life
    support.

    I don't think it was a giant conspiracy but several different applications
    I dealt with went from 10.x to 11.x about the same time leading to some confusion. "Which 11 are we talking about?"

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  • From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon Nov 25 04:40:03 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 21:40 this Saturday (GMT):
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:16:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-11-23, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a >>>>>> single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
    It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.

    But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.

    Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like to explicitly free >>>> everything come hell or high water.

    That actually slows down program termination.

    The microsecond or two that is wasted is far less than the debugging
    time needed when a shortcut goes wrong.

    Actually, thinking about it, there are some things -- shared memory
    sections come to mind -- that are not automatically freed when a process terminates. But everything else -- memory, open files, network connections
    -- will go away automatically.

    If you have those persistent things that you want to clean up, your
    technique won’t be reliable anyway.


    Does it get freed up when the other processes that have it open also
    close it, or is it stuck until shutdown?
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon Nov 25 01:41:07 2024
    On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ...
    get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot
    what's inside what without using comments.

    So use the comments. That’s what I do.

    Only good way ...

    Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
    spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Mon Nov 25 06:47:35 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 01:41:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    The eye doesn't spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.

    I use both.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 25 06:50:32 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 04:40:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 21:40 this Saturday (GMT):

    Actually, thinking about it, there are some things -- shared memory
    sections come to mind -- that are not automatically freed when a
    process terminates. But everything else -- memory, open files, network
    connections -- will go away automatically.

    If you have those persistent things that you want to clean up, your
    technique won’t be reliable anyway.

    Does it get freed up when the other processes that have it open also
    close it, or is it stuck until shutdown?

    POSIX shared memory sections stay in existence until deletion, or system shutdown.

    <https://manpages.debian.org/3/shm_unlink.3.en.html>

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Nov 25 02:11:52 2024
    On 11/24/24 9:41 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I never learned it until M$ started sneaking it into their OS junk.
    "What's a .py ???". The good side of that is that it was right near
    the v2 -> v3 transition and I decided to learn the 'new and
    improved'.

    Good timing. Esri's ArcPy up until Esri 11 was 2.7 so I stayed with it for non-Esri scripts. The transition from 10.8 to 11 was bloody, not only for going to Python 3.8. Being the 500 lb. gorilla in the GIS field they could say "Yeah, this is going to break a lot of stuff you've been doing for
    years. Suck it up." Like Windows 10, Esri 10.8 went on extended life support.

    I don't think it was a giant conspiracy but several different applications
    I dealt with went from 10.x to 11.x about the same time leading to some confusion. "Which 11 are we talking about?"

    The v2->v3 transition wasn't THAT horrible. Indeed
    most smaller v2 apps only need the print()s fixed up.
    More complex apps, yea, some annoying/confusing
    changes in function params and such - but still not
    all THAT bad.

    They PROMISE that p4 will involve almost no re-writing,
    the fixes are internal performance changes instead.

    ANYway ... Python is kinda nice, easy to read/understand
    and can now do almost anything. You can sense a little 'C'
    and a little FORTRAN, in there. If you need SPEED though,
    go to a proper compiled lang. 'C' does bit-oriented stuff
    better, so it's maybe THE choice for exotic coms apps.
    Parent/child servers are 'traditionally' in 'C'.

    Pascal is sweeter, IMHO - loved it since the multi-pass
    compiler days (still have one of those in a DOS VM and
    it WORKS). Hey, some langs "just speak" to you .... I've
    made as many Free Pascal/Lazarus apps as 'C' apps.

    But I still can't envision Perl-lovers.

    Hmmm ... just wondering ... what would an 'AI' make
    of "The Joy Of Joy" :-)

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Nov 25 02:41:14 2024
    On 11/24/24 8:46 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:23:17 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I'm just making the point that it easier to understand OO if you start
    with a simple model. Just as it is easy to understand aspects of C if
    you know an assembler.

    https://go.dev/doc/faq#Is_Go_an_object-oriented_language

    Just saying...

    Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days
    know ASM. As such they will not be enlightened
    about 'C' in that fashion. Today's geeks mostly
    start with Python and MIGHT go a little further,
    likely Rust.

    Just sayin'

    Things changed between 1984 and 2024.

    We Old Guys can kinda look at 'C' and see
    the ASM it's going to become. Later gens
    do not.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 25 08:03:52 2024
    On 24/11/2024 21:06, D wrote:


    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024, Rich wrote:

    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
      Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
      reason than that it's generally comprehensible.

    Oh good lord no.  The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
    I despise Python.


    I see no other way to resolve this but for you two to fight to the death.

    Interpreters, at dawn..
    --
    "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
    conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Nov 25 02:33:32 2024
    On 11/24/24 5:25 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 23/11/2024 23:48, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/23/24 21:36, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:26:26 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    “Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would
    call “classmethods”.

    I think the Smalltalk idea of treating classes as objects, is the
    opposite of a hack.

    That is an elegant idea, but I don’t think it’s what Smalltalk did -- >>> not
    with metaclasses, anyway. If you look at the draft (abandoned) ANSI
    Smalltalk spec <https://github.com/johnwcowan/smalltalk-standard>, it
    says
    “because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior,
    metaclasses are not needed to provide the behavior of class objects”.


    The full quote...

    "Class objects have no special significance other than having names
    and having behaviors and state distinct from that of
    their associated instance objects. Unlike classic Smalltalk
    definitions [Goldberg83], they are not defined as being the
    containers or implementers of their instances' behavior. The
    techniques used to implement the behavior of objects is left to
    the implementers. Finally, because classes are not specified as the
    implementers of behavior, metaclasses are not needed
    to provide the behavior of class objects. "



    I have already completely lost the plot. And the will to live.


    I understand. Just figure that OO means compounded
    calls with lots of dots in 'em. JS takes that to
    the ultimate extreme - and with LONG names for
    all the little objects :-)


    I learnt Smalltalk nearly 40 years ago, needless to say I learnt from
    the Goldberg Smalltalk-80 bluebook, not the current spec.

    To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
    implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour
    implemented?

    Mate I havent a clue what *any* of it means. It's classic compSci Gobbledygook.

    Well, sometimes it DOES sound like that ...

    Better to think in terms of "what you need
    to DO", functional rather than 'ideological'.

    Many langs offer good paths. For the "what"
    that may pare down to just a few. Everyone
    has "a better plan" - but in the end it's
    down to "how easily can I do what I want ?".

    Hey, MIGHT be FORTRAN or COBOL - who knows ?
    Whatever makes yer synapses tingle.


    I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.

    Well, TRY it a bit - in the end you'll like it.
    Easy to read, nothing TOO horrible. Libs for
    *everything* these days. Good docs.

    Was a strict 'C'/Pascal guy for a long time - but
    now I always at least proto in Python. For many apps
    where speed isn't paramount just LEAVE it in Python.

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon Nov 25 08:57:09 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so by
    default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.

    Glibc’s double free detection is heuristic, not 100% reliable.

    (It’s documented as heuristic in the Glibc internals documentation and a glance at the implementation does seem to agree with that.)

    If that were true, the examples on the man page wouldn’t work.

    No, that doesn’t follow. “Not 100% reliable” doesn’t mean specific examples don’t work.

    Perhaps you’re using private definitions of words that nobody else
    shares again?

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Mon Nov 25 09:07:24 2024
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
    Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days
    know ASM. As such they will not be enlightened
    about 'C' in that fashion. Today's geeks mostly
    start with Python and MIGHT go a little further,
    likely Rust.

    Just sayin'

    Things changed between 1984 and 2024.

    We Old Guys can kinda look at 'C' and see
    the ASM it's going to become. Later gens
    do not.

    It’s a common mental model for C, but it’s not accurate. The language
    spec leaves an awful lot of wiggle room for the generated code to
    diverge from the “I can see the assembler” model and compilers take full advantage of it.

    A simple example, based on a historical Linux kernel vulnerability (CVE-2009-1897):

    int f(int *xp) {
    int x = *xp;
    if(!xp)
    return 0;
    return x;
    }

    In the “assembler” model it would compile to something like this:

    mov eax,dword ptr [rdi]
    cmp rdi,0
    jne L1
    mov eax,0
    L1:
    ret

    In fact at -O2 the test on xp is optimized out:

    mov eax, dword ptr [rdi]
    ret

    https://godbolt.org/z/caKeTMTxf to play further.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Nov 25 10:55:40 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 22:07:40 +0100, D wrote:

    I dabbled a bit in perl out of curiosity and I find the following two
    points to be in its favour:

    1. Backwards compatibility. Much better than python.

    Well, that's true. Looking over at the bookshelf I see 'Programming the
    Perl DBI' from 2000. It probably works just as well in 5.40.0 as it did in 5.6.0.

    https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/programming-the-perl/1565926994/

    There isn't a newer version. That's remarkable for close to 25 years. Most
    of my other books from 2000 are suitable for propping up mismatched table legs.

    I did appreciate the concept of a uniform DBI with specific DBDs in the
    back end.

    2. The built in documentation.

    Python offers a lot of built in documentation, assuming the modules follow the PEP guidelines.

    The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3
    shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But I
    imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it is a
    "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl, since the libraries that remain are old and mature.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Nov 25 10:53:43 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:29:05 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/24/24 05:01, rbowman wrote:

    Using Python means you get uniformity across many disciplines and it's
    good enough for most things. It could have been Perl if it hadn't
    gotten stuck in the tar pits, or Ruby, or Go but from whatever twist of
    fate occurred it was Python.

    My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about it
    either. She then moved onto Go. But that was doing big web-server stuff.
    Large scale Docker setups, maybe Kubernetes.

    Horses for courses. I tasked a new hire with developing an interface to Spidertracks.

    https://www.spidertracks.com/

    I gave him the requirements but didn't specify a language so he did it
    with Go. No big deal other than having to set up a Go environment on the build machine. Go is what you would expect from three C programmers who
    hate C++ and I mean that it a good way. Not sure why they put the
    parameter type after the parameter but I can live with that. It's hanging
    in there:

    https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

    for whatever worth the index has.

    I tried a bit of go, and setting up the environment as an amateur was dead simple.

    Is this also the case for professionals?

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  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Mon Nov 25 10:56:42 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ...
    get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot
    what's inside what without using comments.

    So use the comments. That’s what I do.

    Only good way ...

    Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
    spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.


    You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye spotting capability! ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Nov 25 10:58:24 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 24/11/2024 21:06, D wrote:


    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024, Rich wrote:

    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
      Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
      reason than that it's generally comprehensible.

    Oh good lord no.  The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that >>> I despise Python.


    I see no other way to resolve this but for you two to fight to the death.

    Interpreters, at dawn..


    Exactly! And if I could just get the information about how tall the
    combatants are, I can prepare some beautiful coffins!

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon Nov 25 11:48:41 2024
    On 11/24/24 22:37, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:29:05 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about it
    either.

    What was her previous experience? Not (splutter) PHP, by any chance?

    No, she wasn't originally employed as a programmer. Python was her first language.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 25 12:04:11 2024
    On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
    The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3
    shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl, since the libraries that remain are old and mature.

    The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
    An entry point for PWCP
    People Who Cant Program.

    --
    "Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
    higher education positively fortifies it."

    - Stephen Vizinczey

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  • From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon Nov 25 18:20:03 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 06:50 this Monday (GMT):
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 04:40:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 21:40 this Saturday (GMT):

    Actually, thinking about it, there are some things -- shared memory
    sections come to mind -- that are not automatically freed when a
    process terminates. But everything else -- memory, open files, network
    connections -- will go away automatically.

    If you have those persistent things that you want to clean up, your
    technique won’t be reliable anyway.

    Does it get freed up when the other processes that have it open also
    close it, or is it stuck until shutdown?

    POSIX shared memory sections stay in existence until deletion, or system shutdown.

    <https://manpages.debian.org/3/shm_unlink.3.en.html>


    So that's something you should definitely be careful of if you're using
    em.
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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  • From vallor@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Nov 25 19:39:23 2024
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 14:39:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 24/11/2024 14:37, Rich wrote:
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
    reason than that it's generally comprehensible.

    Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
    I despise Python.

    I can't say a good word for either, having never written a line in
    either, I am disnclined to learn.

    I've been learning Python, off-and-on, but my go-to languages
    are still Perl or C.

    (I learned OO programming with Perl. Please don't hate me.)

    --
    -Scott System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
    OS: Linux 6.12.1 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
    ""Keyboard? How quaint!" - Scotty"

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 25 19:42:13 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 10:53:43 +0100, D wrote:

    I tried a bit of go, and setting up the environment as an amateur was
    dead simple.

    Is this also the case for professionals?

    Sure. Compared to setting up for the Java application it was a walk in the park. Part of it was brought on by ourselves but getting the Java app
    built and packaged was convoluted.

    I don't know how well the Go app would have worked out in the long term, including maintenance after the original programmer left. It never saw the light of day. That happens sometimes when the client decides to take
    another path.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Mon Nov 25 19:54:19 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 02:33:32 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Was a strict 'C'/Pascal guy for a long time - but now I always at
    least proto in Python. For many apps where speed isn't paramount just
    LEAVE it in Python.

    https://blog.miguelgrinberg.com/post/is-python-really-that-slow

    Simplistic but I found the comparisons of the different Python 3 versions interesting. For a while it was slower than 2.7, not a good thing, but
    3.11 caught up. I don't know why the bubble sort regressed.

    PyPy looks promising. I don't know why they were able to implement the JIT
    that is hanging fire in CPython.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Nov 25 22:20:02 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
    The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3
    shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But I
    imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it is a
    "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl, since the
    libraries that remain are old and mature.

    The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
    An entry point for PWCP
    People Who Cant Program.

    I see that as elitist. The more people who can learn to do simple
    programming, and simplify their lives, the better!

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Mon Nov 25 21:47:10 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 11:48:41 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/24/24 22:37, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:29:05 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about
    it either.

    What was her previous experience? Not (splutter) PHP, by any chance?

    No, she wasn't originally employed as a programmer. Python was her first language.

    I wonder what her standard of comparison was, then ...

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Nov 25 21:49:29 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 12:04:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.

    No, it is not. It is a far superior basis on which to build on than BASIC
    ever was.

    An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.

    There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Mon Nov 25 21:48:14 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 08:57:09 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so
    by default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.

    Glibc’s double free detection is heuristic, not 100% reliable.

    (It’s documented as heuristic in the Glibc internals documentation and a glance at the implementation does seem to agree with that.)

    If that were true, the examples on the man page wouldn’t work.

    No, that doesn’t follow. “Not 100% reliable” doesn’t mean specific examples don’t work.

    Why not? The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be
    detected reliably.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Nov 25 23:21:21 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 10:53:43 +0100, D wrote:

    I tried a bit of go, and setting up the environment as an amateur was
    dead simple.

    Is this also the case for professionals?

    Sure. Compared to setting up for the Java application it was a walk in the park. Part of it was brought on by ourselves but getting the Java app
    built and packaged was convoluted.

    I don't know how well the Go app would have worked out in the long term, including maintenance after the original programmer left. It never saw the light of day. That happens sometimes when the client decides to take
    another path.


    This is the truth!

    One of my customers has an in house developed, huge, java program. They
    have been developing it, based on a ph.d. thesis for the last 10 years,
    and they also tried to shun libraries but have written a lot of
    functionality from scratch.

    I almost started to work there 7 years ago, but that would have been too
    early. It is absolutely fascinating how much they achieved in the past 7
    years and how much their program has matured.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 25 23:55:21 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:20:02 +0100, D wrote:

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
    The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3
    shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But
    I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it
    is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl,
    since the libraries that remain are old and mature.

    The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
    An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.

    I see that as elitist. The more people who can learn to do simple programming, and simplify their lives, the better!

    Python doesn't have a lock on the domain. I worked with a PhD chemist who programmed in Fortran. He knew his chemistry but his Fortran looked like a train wreck. The math was good and could be extracted into production
    code. Many People Who Can't Program evolve into People Who Can Program or
    have valuable expertise in a field where being able to express it, however awkwardly, is valuable.

    One of the job descriptions of a good manager is the ability to tell the difference.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 25 23:37:36 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 23:21:21 +0100, D wrote:

    One of my customers has an in house developed, huge, java program. They
    have been developing it, based on a ph.d. thesis for the last 10 years,
    and they also tried to shun libraries but have written a lot of
    functionality from scratch.

    I almost started to work there 7 years ago, but that would have been too early. It is absolutely fascinating how much they achieved in the past 7 years and how much their program has matured.

    Those things tend to grow. There is a small town that is handled by the
    county sheriffs department but it's about 50 miles from the dispatch
    station. The original Java app allowed the substation to have some idea
    what was going on in town, but there was no interaction. It was simple to
    set up and to update. Over the years it grew into a fully functional
    interface with parts being reused to build an Android app.

    I did a few minor enhancements over the years for GIS related
    functionality with great care since I am not a competent Java programmer.
    I was interested in Java in the late '90s. In my edition of 'Java in a Nutshell' it still fit in a nutshell rather than a whole damn walnut tree.

    My first disillusionment came when Swing was added on top of AWT. "your
    app runs like a herniated sloth? You need a bigger, faster machine!"

    I have the media for Visual J++. It showed promise before it was
    kneecapped by Sun. imho C# is Java done right.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon Nov 25 21:50:48 2024
    On 11/25/24 1:47 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 01:41:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    The eye doesn't spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.

    I use both.

    Me too ... but I tend to use only 2-space indents
    so complex nestings won't run off the edge of the
    page ...

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Tue Nov 26 03:00:03 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 21:50:48 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    ... I tend to use only 2-space indents so complex nestings
    won't run off the edge of the page ...

    I typically set the window width in my editor to about 100 columns.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 25 21:58:51 2024
    On 11/25/24 4:56 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ...
    get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot
    what's inside what without using comments.

    So use the comments. That’s what I do.

     Only good way ...

     Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
     spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.


    You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye spotting capability! ;)

    As I said to Larry, I almost always use just 2-space
    indents so deeply-nested stuff doesn't tend to run
    off the page margin. Object langs make this even worse
    with all the something.something.something.something
    sorts of lines.

    SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot
    nestings fairly well, but I mostly just use nano
    in one terminal and do test runs from another.
    Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
    most of the time.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Tue Nov 26 04:03:21 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 21:58:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot nestings fairly
    well, but I mostly just use nano in one terminal and do test runs
    from another. Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
    most of the time.

    It can't fix really mangled code but I like to run ruff to neaten up .py
    files, 'ruff check' for errors and 'ruff format' to reformat. It's a
    standalone or there is a VS Code extension.

    Like black it is opinionated. It's configurable but the default is fine
    for me. I haven't written enough Python code to develop a lot of personal preferences like I have for C. For larger projects ruff's claim to fame is
    it's fast being written in rust rather than Python like many of the
    linters.

    VS Code is overkill and I'm more likely to use vim for one or two Python
    files but I've gotten used to using the Code extensions for the
    microprocessors I play with so I tend to use it for most things. Anyway
    with the vim extension the editor feels like vim.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Mon Nov 25 22:59:29 2024
    On 11/25/24 4:07 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
    Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days
    know ASM. As such they will not be enlightened
    about 'C' in that fashion. Today's geeks mostly
    start with Python and MIGHT go a little further,
    likely Rust.

    Just sayin'

    Things changed between 1984 and 2024.

    We Old Guys can kinda look at 'C' and see
    the ASM it's going to become. Later gens
    do not.

    It’s a common mental model for C, but it’s not accurate. The language spec leaves an awful lot of wiggle room for the generated code to
    diverge from the “I can see the assembler” model and compilers take full advantage of it.

    A simple example, based on a historical Linux kernel vulnerability (CVE-2009-1897):

    int f(int *xp) {
    int x = *xp;
    if(!xp)
    return 0;
    return x;
    }

    In the “assembler” model it would compile to something like this:

    mov eax,dword ptr [rdi]
    cmp rdi,0
    jne L1
    mov eax,0
    L1:
    ret

    In fact at -O2 the test on xp is optimized out:

    mov eax, dword ptr [rdi]
    ret

    https://godbolt.org/z/caKeTMTxf to play further.


    Heh ... much of my 'C' looks like the top example, all
    straight-forward and readable. As I said somewhere, 'C'
    was the neat-o new lang back when I got started in things
    so I strongly trend towards the K&R look and feel even now.
    SO easy to write incomprehensible 'C' !

    I agree that the optimization tech has become VERY good
    these days. That final example shows how tight that
    particular bit CAN be made. How the compiler figures
    that out - NO idea ! Messing with microcontrollers
    can be helpful in teaching how to shrink ASM - ya always
    wanna save a few bytes, a few cycles.

    "Tight memory" means "Only four gigabytes" to the
    Gen-Z/A2 crowd :-)

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Nov 25 23:58:24 2024
    On 11/25/24 2:54 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 02:33:32 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Was a strict 'C'/Pascal guy for a long time - but now I always at
    least proto in Python. For many apps where speed isn't paramount just
    LEAVE it in Python.

    https://blog.miguelgrinberg.com/post/is-python-really-that-slow

    Simplistic but I found the comparisons of the different Python 3 versions interesting. For a while it was slower than 2.7, not a good thing, but
    3.11 caught up. I don't know why the bubble sort regressed.

    PyPy looks promising. I don't know why they were able to implement the JIT that is hanging fire in CPython.


    PyPy IS snappier ... though not every line. I also
    worry about potential little incompatibilities with
    the "real" cpython implementation.

    On the plus, PyPy has been around long enough so I don't
    think it'll just stall and then go away. It's "safe" to
    develop in.

    We've yet to see what cpython4 will be like. I think
    'performance' has been a major goal. PyPy shamed them :-)

    As for JIT compilation, well, cpython went with the
    model it had, that it knew. Human nature. BOTH are
    good for most apps - unless you really NEED the speed.

    As for 'regression' - probably the results of de-bugging
    and explosion-proofing. 'Safety' can use up a lot of code.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Tue Nov 26 04:43:47 2024
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:59:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Heh ... much of my 'C' looks like the top example, all
    straight-forward and readable. As I said somewhere, 'C' was the
    neat-o new lang back when I got started in things so I strongly trend
    towards the K&R look and feel even now.
    SO easy to write incomprehensible 'C' !

    Most of them have been 'fixed' but I'm sure there are K&R style
    definitions lurking someplace.

    #include "stdio.h"

    int add_stuff(a, b, c)
    int a;
    int b;
    int c;
    {
    return a + b +c;
    }

    int main(void)
    {
    printf("the sum is %d\n", add_stuff(1, 4, 6));
    return 0;
    }


    still works with gcc 11.4 although with std=c2x it warns

    junk.c: In function ‘add_stuff’:
    junk.c:3:5: warning: old-style function definition [-Wold-style-
    definition]
    3 | int add_stuff(a, b, c)
    | ^~~~~~~~~


    I don't know if gcc will ever default to whining about them. That's
    staying power -- 46 years and cointing.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Tue Nov 26 05:29:52 2024
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    On 11/25/24 4:07 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
    Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days
    know ASM. As such they will not be enlightened
    about 'C' in that fashion. Today's geeks mostly
    start with Python and MIGHT go a little further,
    likely Rust.

    Just sayin'

    Things changed between 1984 and 2024.

    We Old Guys can kinda look at 'C' and see
    the ASM it's going to become. Later gens
    do not.

    It’s a common mental model for C, but it’s not accurate. The language >> spec leaves an awful lot of wiggle room for the generated code to
    diverge from the “I can see the assembler” model and compilers take full >> advantage of it.

    A simple example, based on a historical Linux kernel vulnerability
    (CVE-2009-1897):

    int f(int *xp) {
    int x = *xp;
    if(!xp)
    return 0;
    return x;
    }

    In the “assembler” model it would compile to something like this:

    mov eax,dword ptr [rdi]
    cmp rdi,0
    jne L1
    mov eax,0
    L1:
    ret

    In fact at -O2 the test on xp is optimized out:

    mov eax, dword ptr [rdi]
    ret

    https://godbolt.org/z/caKeTMTxf to play further.

    ...
    That final example shows how tight that particular bit CAN be made.
    How the compiler figures that out - NO idea !

    Did you miss the forest for the trees. The final example is incorrect
    based upon the plain meaning (albeit incorrect) of the input C source.

    The check for a null "xp" value that is present in the C code has
    disappeared in the output Assembly. The f() function has become
    f(int *xp) { return *xp; }. Zero will only return from it when what xp
    points at contains zero.

    Granted, the C code is also wrong, in that "xp" is dereferenced before
    it is checked to see if is null.

    How the compiler 'figure[ed] that out' is that the C standard says dereferencing a null pointer is undefined. So the compiler writers
    decided that if the author wrote the dereference, they were also
    asserting that "xp" would never be null at that point in their code.
    Therefore there was no need to check for "xp" being null on the next
    line, as it can't be null there, because the programmer already said it
    was not null by dereferencing it on the prior line (because the
    programmer should know not to do that). And the optimizer removed the
    entire if statement as dead code that can never execute.

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Nov 26 05:57:33 2024
    On 2024-11-26, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:59:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Heh ... much of my 'C' looks like the top example, all
    straight-forward and readable. As I said somewhere, 'C' was the
    neat-o new lang back when I got started in things so I strongly trend
    towards the K&R look and feel even now.
    SO easy to write incomprehensible 'C' !

    Most of them have been 'fixed' but I'm sure there are K&R style
    definitions lurking someplace.

    #include "stdio.h"

    int add_stuff(a, b, c)
    int a;
    int b;
    int c;
    {
    return a + b +c;
    }

    int main(void)
    {
    printf("the sum is %d\n", add_stuff(1, 4, 6));
    return 0;
    }


    still works with gcc 11.4 although with std=c2x it warns

    junk.c: In function ‘add_stuff’:
    junk.c:3:5: warning: old-style function definition [-Wold-style-
    definition]
    3 | int add_stuff(a, b, c)
    | ^~~~~~~~~


    I don't know if gcc will ever default to whining about them. That's
    staying power -- 46 years and cointing.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it does soon - after all, it whines
    about just about everything else these days. Each new version
    spits out tons of new warnings, and I go over my code and get
    rid of every one (sometimes correcting questionable code in the
    process). And then I started compiling the Windows version of
    my stuff with MinGW, and the process began anew.

    As for old-style function declarations, my code still contains
    my solution that maintains compatibility with the old K&R style:

    #ifdef PROTOTYPE
    int foo(int bar, char *baz)
    #else
    int foo(bar, baz) int bar; char *baz;
    #endif

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Tue Nov 26 08:49:06 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 05:57:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    I wouldn't be surprised if it does soon - after all, it whines about
    just about everything else these days. Each new version spits out tons
    of new warnings, and I go over my code and get rid of every one
    (sometimes correcting questionable code in the process). And then I
    started compiling the Windows version of my stuff with MinGW, and the
    process began anew.

    I think it was 11 that got stuffy about defining variables in header
    files. It never was a good practice but it was done frequently in some of
    our legacy code. Luckily yet another switch told it to shut up and go
    about its business like it always did. Trying to fix it would have been a
    month project for a newbie and we didn't have a newbie handy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Tue Nov 26 08:32:32 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 08:57:09 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so
    by default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.

    Glibc’s double free detection is heuristic, not 100% reliable.

    (It’s documented as heuristic in the Glibc internals documentation and a >> glance at the implementation does seem to agree with that.)

    If that were true, the examples on the man page wouldn’t work.

    No, that doesn’t follow. “Not 100% reliable” doesn’t mean specific >> examples don’t work.

    Why not? The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be detected reliably.

    They do no such thing. They show that one very simple usage pattern is detected. They tell you nothing about the ability to detect double frees
    in a more complex system.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Nov 26 10:09:37 2024
    On Tue, 25 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 23:21:21 +0100, D wrote:

    One of my customers has an in house developed, huge, java program. They
    have been developing it, based on a ph.d. thesis for the last 10 years,
    and they also tried to shun libraries but have written a lot of
    functionality from scratch.

    I almost started to work there 7 years ago, but that would have been too
    early. It is absolutely fascinating how much they achieved in the past 7
    years and how much their program has matured.

    Those things tend to grow. There is a small town that is handled by the county sheriffs department but it's about 50 miles from the dispatch
    station. The original Java app allowed the substation to have some idea
    what was going on in town, but there was no interaction. It was simple to
    set up and to update. Over the years it grew into a fully functional interface with parts being reused to build an Android app.

    I did a few minor enhancements over the years for GIS related
    functionality with great care since I am not a competent Java programmer.
    I was interested in Java in the late '90s. In my edition of 'Java in a Nutshell' it still fit in a nutshell rather than a whole damn walnut tree.

    My first disillusionment came when Swing was added on top of AWT. "your
    app runs like a herniated sloth? You need a bigger, faster machine!"

    I have the media for Visual J++. It showed promise before it was
    kneecapped by Sun. imho C# is Java done right.


    Yes, I asked the CTO if he would have chosen Java today, and he said no.
    But now they have 10 years of work in java, so there is little point to
    switch to something else, since Java works well for them.

    I imagine that the fact that they keep external library dependencies to a minimum makes it easier for them, than if they had a lot of dependencies
    on third party libraries.

    I wonder if rust would be a good option today? The software is purely
    backend software. All the GUI parts are just html + some dynamic stuff.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Tue Nov 26 10:12:40 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/25/24 4:56 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ... >>>>> get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot >>>>> what's inside what without using comments.

    So use the comments. That’s what I do.

     Only good way ...

     Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
     spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.


    You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye spotting
    capability! ;)

    As I said to Larry, I almost always use just 2-space
    indents so deeply-nested stuff doesn't tend to run
    off the page margin. Object langs make this even worse
    with all the something.something.something.something
    sorts of lines.

    SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot
    nestings fairly well, but I mostly just use nano
    in one terminal and do test runs from another.
    Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
    most of the time.


    I use four, but since worked as a systems administrator (or what today be called "devops") I never wrote any programs large enough, or complicated enough, to run out of line space.

    This is what I do not like about power shell. Some of the commands are way
    too long to type. I like ls, df, du & co! It would be horrible to have to
    type list_files every time.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Nov 26 10:10:19 2024
    On Tue, 25 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:20:02 +0100, D wrote:

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
    The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3 >>>> shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But
    I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it
    is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl,
    since the libraries that remain are old and mature.

    The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
    An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.

    I see that as elitist. The more people who can learn to do simple
    programming, and simplify their lives, the better!

    Python doesn't have a lock on the domain. I worked with a PhD chemist who programmed in Fortran. He knew his chemistry but his Fortran looked like a train wreck. The math was good and could be extracted into production
    code. Many People Who Can't Program evolve into People Who Can Program or have valuable expertise in a field where being able to express it, however awkwardly, is valuable.

    One of the job descriptions of a good manager is the ability to tell the difference.


    Well put. You are a wise man!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Nov 26 10:24:59 2024
    On 11/25/24 23:55, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:20:02 +0100, D wrote:

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
    The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3 >>>> shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But
    I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it
    is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl,
    since the libraries that remain are old and mature.

    The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
    An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.

    I see that as elitist. The more people who can learn to do simple
    programming, and simplify their lives, the better!

    Python doesn't have a lock on the domain. I worked with a PhD chemist who programmed in Fortran. He knew his chemistry but his Fortran looked like a train wreck. The math was good and could be extracted into production
    code. Many People Who Can't Program evolve into People Who Can Program or have valuable expertise in a field where being able to express it, however awkwardly, is valuable.

    One of the job descriptions of a good manager is the ability to tell the difference.

    The fundamental characteristic of a good programmer is to be able to
    deliver an application that is useful. Everything else is secondary.

    IT department standards for good "production code" were often dogmatic nonsense, labour intensive, often failures. Perhaps it has improved, but
    in my day corporate IT management was dominated by snake-oil salesman
    using a team of very poor drone programmers. Management liked drone programmers, because they were easier to manage, interchangeable. The
    trouble was that getting an app to work took a higher level of
    understanding and skill, rather than just joining the dots.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Ahlstrom@21:1/5 to vallor on Tue Nov 26 07:09:33 2024
    vallor wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 14:39:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 24/11/2024 14:37, Rich wrote:
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
    reason than that it's generally comprehensible.

    Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
    I despise Python.

    I can't say a good word for either, having never written a line in
    either, I am disnclined to learn.

    I've been learning Python, off-and-on, but my go-to languages
    are still Perl or C.

    (I learned OO programming with Perl. Please don't hate me.)

    I've dabbled (babbled?) in Perl, Java, Python, and done some work-work with C#/ASP.NET/Javascript, but C/C++ is my goto (get it? get it?).

    Of course, my early C++ code was pretty awful.

    I do think Python is a good language for scripting, and it's also the
    source for the Meson build system.

    Then there's Zoidberg, a Perl-based shell, long dead:

    https://github.com/jberger/Zoidberg

    --
    This universe shipped by weight, not by volume. Some expansion of the
    contents may have occurred during shipment.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to Pancho on Tue Nov 26 13:17:08 2024
    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
    On 11/25/24 23:55, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:20:02 +0100, D wrote:

    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
    The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3 >>>>> shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But >>>>> I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it >>>>> is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl,
    since the libraries that remain are old and mature.

    The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
    An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.

    I see that as elitist. The more people who can learn to do simple
    programming, and simplify their lives, the better!

    Python doesn't have a lock on the domain. I worked with a PhD chemist who
    programmed in Fortran. He knew his chemistry but his Fortran looked like a >> train wreck. The math was good and could be extracted into production
    code. Many People Who Can't Program evolve into People Who Can Program or
    have valuable expertise in a field where being able to express it, however >> awkwardly, is valuable.

    One of the job descriptions of a good manager is the ability to tell the
    difference.

    The fundamental characteristic of a good programmer is to be able to
    deliver an application that is useful. Everything else is secondary.

    IT department standards for good "production code" were often dogmatic nonsense, labour intensive, often failures. Perhaps it has improved, but

    It has not. For "enterprise" style software at least.

    in my day corporate IT management was dominated by snake-oil salesman

    Still present (ClownStrike anyone?).

    using a team of very poor drone programmers. Management liked drone

    Also still present. I've described it as "they can assemble lego's
    if given the instruction book -- ask them to create a lego model
    without the instruction book and they are lost"

    programmers, because they were easier to manage, interchangeable. The
    trouble was that getting an app to work took a higher level of
    understanding and skill, rather than just joining the dots.

    Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
    brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
    that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get
    back a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Ahlstrom@21:1/5 to Rich on Tue Nov 26 09:15:08 2024
    Rich wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    <snip>

    The fundamental characteristic of a good programmer is to be able to
    deliver an application that is useful. Everything else is secondary.

    Nah, the application must also be maintainable.

    IT department standards for good "production code" were often dogmatic
    nonsense, labour intensive, often failures. Perhaps it has improved, but

    It has not. For "enterprise" style software at least.

    Our group had good practices, including design review, code-review, and
    plenty of documentation.

    in my day corporate IT management was dominated by snake-oil salesman

    Still present (ClownStrike anyone?).

    using a team of very poor drone programmers. Management liked drone

    Also still present. I've described it as "they can assemble lego's
    if given the instruction book -- ask them to create a lego model
    without the instruction book and they are lost"

    programmers, because they were easier to manage, interchangeable. The
    trouble was that getting an app to work took a higher level of
    understanding and skill, rather than just joining the dots.

    Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
    brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
    that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get
    back a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.

    I feel sorry for you guys.

    --
    Cleanse area thoroughly before applying.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Rich on Tue Nov 26 18:57:23 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:17:08 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
    brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
    that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get back
    a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.

    The holy grail for management is a design methodology that gets adequate results from a workforce of varying aptitudes. Particularly for larger corporations you'll get a normal distribution, a few very good, a few completely useless, and a lot of mediocrity. That's what you have to work
    with.

    What I've seen over the years is a company will luck out, get a better
    than average distribution, and achieve success. Whatever they're doing is
    taken as an example of the right way and copied mechanically. Top down structured programming, agile, devops, and so forth have their day.

    TI lucked out in the '70s and used something they called 'matrix
    management' that became the new Wunderkind. The '80s brought 'In Search of Excellence'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence

    Good money was made from book sales and training sessions from independent snake oil salesmen preaching the gospel. The company I worked for had one
    of the sessions. Not too many of the 'excellent' corporations are around
    today.

    About 10 years ago the company I now work for had a 'pair programming'
    session. That was hilarious. The 'experts' were only familiar with Apple machines and other than the one they brought there wasn't an Apple in the building. Having been through required attendance things before my team carefully stayed to the back of the room where we could slink away and get
    back to business.

    I'm sure the next methodology will wrap itself around AI, spin off
    training companies, and mostly fail to deliver on the promises.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Chris Ahlstrom on Tue Nov 26 19:31:56 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 07:09:33 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

    Of course, my early C++ code was pretty awful.

    Early C++ was pretty awful. I understand iterators and other arcane bits
    have been cleaned up a lot but I have no need to use general C++.
    Arduino, Pico, and other microcontrollers use C/C++ but it's a limited
    subset of C++.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 26 19:17:21 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 10:09:37 +0100, D wrote:

    I imagine that the fact that they keep external library dependencies to
    a minimum makes it easier for them, than if they had a lot of
    dependencies on third party libraries.

    That helps. We did an Angular app and package.json wound up with over 80 dependencies. Downloading them all was painful and sometimes introduced problems. One example was using Protobuf 2.0. Protobuf 3.0 was not
    backward compatible.

    We got good at the semantics of package-lock when it became clear that not everyone played by the rules of not breaking stuff in minor versions.

    I'd done a web map using node for the backend. It had 8 dependencies, all
    of which were stable. Increase that by a factor of 10 and it gets chewy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Nov 26 21:59:47 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 10:09:37 +0100, D wrote:

    I imagine that the fact that they keep external library dependencies to
    a minimum makes it easier for them, than if they had a lot of
    dependencies on third party libraries.

    That helps. We did an Angular app and package.json wound up with over 80 dependencies. Downloading them all was painful and sometimes introduced problems. One example was using Protobuf 2.0. Protobuf 3.0 was not
    backward compatible.

    We got good at the semantics of package-lock when it became clear that not everyone played by the rules of not breaking stuff in minor versions.

    I'd done a web map using node for the backend. It had 8 dependencies, all
    of which were stable. Increase that by a factor of 10 and it gets chewy.


    Shudder!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Nov 26 21:58:45 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:17:08 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
    brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
    that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get back
    a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.

    The holy grail for management is a design methodology that gets adequate results from a workforce of varying aptitudes. Particularly for larger corporations you'll get a normal distribution, a few very good, a few completely useless, and a lot of mediocrity. That's what you have to work with.

    What I've seen over the years is a company will luck out, get a better
    than average distribution, and achieve success. Whatever they're doing is taken as an example of the right way and copied mechanically. Top down structured programming, agile, devops, and so forth have their day.

    TI lucked out in the '70s and used something they called 'matrix
    management' that became the new Wunderkind. The '80s brought 'In Search of Excellence'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence

    Good money was made from book sales and training sessions from independent snake oil salesmen preaching the gospel. The company I worked for had one
    of the sessions. Not too many of the 'excellent' corporations are around today.

    About 10 years ago the company I now work for had a 'pair programming' session. That was hilarious. The 'experts' were only familiar with Apple machines and other than the one they brought there wasn't an Apple in the building. Having been through required attendance things before my team carefully stayed to the back of the room where we could slink away and get back to business.

    I'm sure the next methodology will wrap itself around AI, spin off
    training companies, and mostly fail to deliver on the promises.



    Ahh... and today you have agile snakeoil salesmen! I heard a story from
    the girlfriend of one of my consultants. Her company, a computer game
    company, hired an "agile coach" who was workshopping away like a madman.

    One programmer said... "but this agile thing, it seems to me like it will become less efficient and more work, that's bad", the snakeoil salesman responded "I hear you and appreciate your concern, but if agile makes
    things worse, you're not doing it right, and that's why we are here"! ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Tue Nov 26 21:22:37 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be
    detected reliably.

    They do no such thing.

    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Tue Nov 26 21:30:12 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be
    detected reliably.

    They do no such thing.

    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?

    Obviously you are not arguing in good faith. As a reminder of the full paragraph:

    They do no such thing. They show that one very simple usage pattern is detected. They tell you nothing about the ability to detect double frees
    in a more complex system.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Tue Nov 26 21:36:59 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 21:30:12 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be detected
    reliably.

    They do no such thing.

    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?

    Obviously you are not arguing in good faith.

    Is this some special meaning of “they do no such thing” that is private to you?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Louis Krupp@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Tue Nov 26 17:55:10 2024
    On 11/26/2024 2:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be
    detected reliably.
    They do no such thing.
    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?

    In the example in the man page, if the two free() calls are back to back
    with no intervening malloc() calls, the double free() is detected. I
    tried adding a malloc(1000) call in the middle:

        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

        malloc(1000);
        printf("%s(): returned from second malloc(1000) call\n", __func__);

        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    and the program ran to completion with no apparent problem.

    The compiler does what it can and glibc does what it can, but C is C and
    the heap is what it is, and no, I don't know how this would work in Rust.

    Louis

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Wed Nov 27 01:38:47 2024
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:17:08 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
    brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
    that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get back >>> a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.

    The holy grail for management is a design methodology that gets adequate
    results from a workforce of varying aptitudes. Particularly for larger
    corporations you'll get a normal distribution, a few very good, a few
    completely useless, and a lot of mediocrity. That's what you have to work
    with.

    What I've seen over the years is a company will luck out, get a better
    than average distribution, and achieve success. Whatever they're doing is
    taken as an example of the right way and copied mechanically. Top down
    structured programming, agile, devops, and so forth have their day.

    TI lucked out in the '70s and used something they called 'matrix
    management' that became the new Wunderkind. The '80s brought 'In Search of >> Excellence'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence

    Good money was made from book sales and training sessions from independent >> snake oil salesmen preaching the gospel. The company I worked for had one
    of the sessions. Not too many of the 'excellent' corporations are around
    today.

    About 10 years ago the company I now work for had a 'pair programming'
    session. That was hilarious. The 'experts' were only familiar with Apple
    machines and other than the one they brought there wasn't an Apple in the
    building. Having been through required attendance things before my team
    carefully stayed to the back of the room where we could slink away and get >> back to business.

    I'm sure the next methodology will wrap itself around AI, spin off
    training companies, and mostly fail to deliver on the promises.



    Ahh... and today you have agile snakeoil salesmen! I heard a story from
    the girlfriend of one of my consultants. Her company, a computer game company, hired an "agile coach" who was workshopping away like a madman.

    One programmer said... "but this agile thing, it seems to me like it will become less efficient and more work, that's bad", the snakeoil salesman responded "I hear you and appreciate your concern, but if agile makes
    things worse, you're not doing it right, and that's why we are here"! ;)

    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” -- Upton Sinclair

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something

    Agile, at least to the extent I've seen it being actually practiced so
    far, is of little benefit to the actual programmers, and adds burden
    (more daily meetings for the 'scrum' and sprint periodic meetings for
    the finale, retro, planning, etc. meetings).

    The one thing it does provide is give management more frequent feedback
    that "something's happening" so they can feel cozy that their budget
    funds have been used sensibly (i.e., CYA for managers).

    But given that most 'enterprise' execution of 'agile' tends to, in the
    limit, approach an "agile waterfall" type of arrangement, the
    'wonderful promise' of agile of quick turnaround for bug fixes and more
    speedy accumulation of incrememtal improvements that deploy every
    sprint tends to get lost in the surrounding bureaucracy tarpit that
    holds everything else back.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 27 01:40:37 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 21:58:45 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh... and today you have agile snakeoil salesmen! I heard a story from
    the girlfriend of one of my consultants. Her company, a computer game company, hired an "agile coach" who was workshopping away like a madman.

    Right... I wonder if they even believe in the snake oil.We had a police
    chief who was a pretty nice guy but had a weakness for traveling medicine
    shows that would teach the officers about gang violence and so forth. Even
    the low lifes in town knew the 'gangs' were bored 12 year olds with spray
    cans that would last 4 seconds in Compton but he lapped it up.

    Then the Hells Angels came for vacation and he went off the deep end. The Angels were better behaved than when the BMW riders came to town but he imported cops from another state to deal with the potential bloody
    violence. The violence turned out to be the out of state cops arresting
    college kids who were protesting the over the top treatment of the bikers.

    City council went ballistic when they got the bill and it turned out it's against state law to import cops, something that goes back to the copper
    mines and Pinkertons, so the chief was fired.

    I'm sure the snake oil salesmen took the show to some other town. The
    agile people probably use the same model.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to Louis Krupp on Wed Nov 27 01:48:27 2024
    Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> wrote:
    On 11/26/2024 2:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be
    detected reliably.
    They do no such thing.
    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?

    In the example in the man page, if the two free() calls are back to
    back with no intervening malloc() calls, the double free() is
    detected. I tried adding a malloc(1000) call in the middle:

        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

        malloc(1000);
        printf("%s(): returned from second malloc(1000) call\n", __func__);

        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    and the program ran to completion with no apparent problem.

    The compiler does what it can and glibc does what it can, but C is C
    and the heap is what it is, and no, I don't know how this would work
    in Rust.

    Which was exactly Richard K's point to Lawrence. It shows that one
    simple pattern is detected, but does not support that *all* possible
    usage patterns are detected.

    In fact, for at least the free() manpage on my Slackware system, it
    states this:

    The free() function frees the memory space pointed to by ptr, which
    must have been returned by a previous call to malloc(), calloc(), or
    realloc(). Otherwise, or if free(ptr) has already been called
    before, undefined behavior occurs. If ptr is NULL, no operation is
    performed.

    The paragraph above explicitly states that a second free(ptr) to a ptr
    that was already freed, is undefined. And with "undefined" we enter
    that wonderful world of "almost anything at all can occur now".

    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:

    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by
    ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
    the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Louis Krupp on Wed Nov 27 04:39:48 2024
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 17:55:10 -0700, Louis Krupp wrote:

    In the example in the man page, if the two free() calls are back to back
    with no intervening malloc() calls, the double free() is detected. I
    tried adding a malloc(1000) call in the middle:

        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

        malloc(1000);
        printf("%s(): returned from second malloc(1000) call\n", __func__);

        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    and the program ran to completion with no apparent problem.

    I wonder if alternative memory allocators might not do better.
    jemalloc, for example <https://github.com/jemalloc/jemalloc/wiki/Use-Case%3A-Find-a-memory-corruption-bug>.

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  • From Louis Krupp@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Tue Nov 26 22:38:48 2024
    On 11/26/2024 9:39 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 17:55:10 -0700, Louis Krupp wrote:

    In the example in the man page, if the two free() calls are back to back
    with no intervening malloc() calls, the double free() is detected. I
    tried adding a malloc(1000) call in the middle:

        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

        malloc(1000);
        printf("%s(): returned from second malloc(1000) call\n", __func__); >>
        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    and the program ran to completion with no apparent problem.
    I wonder if alternative memory allocators might not do better.
    jemalloc, for example <https://github.com/jemalloc/jemalloc/wiki/Use-Case%3A-Find-a-memory-corruption-bug>.
    As far as I can tell, the distributed version of jemalloc isn't
    configured with the --enable-debug or --enable-fill options, either or
    both of which might -- or might not -- help detect problems like this.
    In my personal opinion, relying on any library to catch raw pointer
    errors at runtime is probably not the way to go. It might be better to
    (1) never define an uninitialized pointer, and (2) wrap free() in
    function that looked like this (and never use free() by itself):

    ===
    void my_free(void **pp)
    {
        free(*pp);
        *pp = NULL;
    }

    ...
    char *p = NULL;
    ...
        p = malloc(...);
    ...
        my_free(&p);
    ...
    ===

    At this point, it might be easier to code in C++ (using smart pointers)
    or Rust (Rust is supposed to be good at this sort of thing).

    Louis

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Wed Nov 27 01:39:34 2024
    On 11/25/24 4:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 12:04:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.

    No, it is not. It is a far superior basis on which to build on than BASIC ever was.

    An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.

    There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.


    Ummmmmm ... CAN use it for general programming ... but
    it's not super-pleasant :-)

    Good old BASIC worked well, was fairly easy to read and
    understand and once you could structure stuff nicely ...
    really nothing *wrong* with it other than being old
    and unfashionable.

    Try : https://www.freebasic.net/

    Python is "better" - but not THAT much better. It has
    become totally ubiquitous so there's really no avoiding
    the lang.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 27 01:58:31 2024
    On 11/26/24 4:12 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/25/24 4:56 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ... >>>>>> get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot >>>>>> what's inside what without using comments.

    So use the comments. That’s what I do.

     Only good way ...

     Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
     spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.


    You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye
    spotting capability! ;)

     As I said to Larry, I almost always use just 2-space
     indents so deeply-nested stuff doesn't tend to run
     off the page margin. Object langs make this even worse
     with all the something.something.something.something
     sorts of lines.

     SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot
     nestings fairly well, but I mostly just use nano
     in one terminal and do test runs from another.
     Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
     most of the time.


    I use four, but since worked as a systems administrator (or what today
    be called "devops") I never wrote any programs large enough, or
    complicated enough, to run out of line space.

    My last big Python app was about 450 lines of code - and
    it had LOTS of option switches (TOO many!). Things got
    nested really deep sometimes.

    Shrank that to about 250 lines of Pascal (the re-think
    plus leaving out the options even I never used).

    This is what I do not like about power shell. Some of the commands are
    way too long to type. I like ls, df, du & co! It would be horrible to
    have to type list_files every time.

    I kinda have to admit, or brag, that I never used PowerShell.

    But yea, shortish generally IS a lot better. Longish is
    one reason I hate JS, and then there was COBOL :-)

    Haven't done a COBOL app for a long time ... I'll have
    to do something ... found a COBOL IDE of sorts somewhere ...
    ah, OpenCobolIDE (a PyPy pgm).

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  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Wed Nov 27 10:12:06 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/26/24 4:12 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/25/24 4:56 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ... >>>>>>> get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot >>>>>>> what's inside what without using comments.

    So use the comments. That’s what I do.

     Only good way ...

     Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
     spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.


    You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye spotting >>>> capability! ;)

     As I said to Larry, I almost always use just 2-space
     indents so deeply-nested stuff doesn't tend to run
     off the page margin. Object langs make this even worse
     with all the something.something.something.something
     sorts of lines.

     SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot
     nestings fairly well, but I mostly just use nano
     in one terminal and do test runs from another.
     Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
     most of the time.


    I use four, but since worked as a systems administrator (or what today be
    called "devops") I never wrote any programs large enough, or complicated
    enough, to run out of line space.

    My last big Python app was about 450 lines of code - and
    it had LOTS of option switches (TOO many!). Things got
    nested really deep sometimes.

    Shrank that to about 250 lines of Pascal (the re-think
    plus leaving out the options even I never used).

    This is what I do not like about power shell. Some of the commands are way >> too long to type. I like ls, df, du & co! It would be horrible to have to
    type list_files every time.

    I kinda have to admit, or brag, that I never used PowerShell.

    But yea, shortish generally IS a lot better. Longish is
    one reason I hate JS, and then there was COBOL :-)

    Haven't done a COBOL app for a long time ... I'll have
    to do something ... found a COBOL IDE of sorts somewhere ...
    ah, OpenCobolIDE (a PyPy pgm).


    Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(

    Note that the 250 lines of pascal could be reduced further to 1 line if
    you find out the true name of god and use that instead!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Nov 27 10:10:20 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 21:58:45 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh... and today you have agile snakeoil salesmen! I heard a story from
    the girlfriend of one of my consultants. Her company, a computer game
    company, hired an "agile coach" who was workshopping away like a madman.

    Right... I wonder if they even believe in the snake oil.We had a police chief who was a pretty nice guy but had a weakness for traveling medicine shows that would teach the officers about gang violence and so forth. Even the low lifes in town knew the 'gangs' were bored 12 year olds with spray cans that would last 4 seconds in Compton but he lapped it up.

    Then the Hells Angels came for vacation and he went off the deep end. The Angels were better behaved than when the BMW riders came to town but he imported cops from another state to deal with the potential bloody
    violence. The violence turned out to be the out of state cops arresting college kids who were protesting the over the top treatment of the bikers.

    City council went ballistic when they got the bill and it turned out it's against state law to import cops, something that goes back to the copper mines and Pinkertons, so the chief was fired.

    I'm sure the snake oil salesmen took the show to some other town. The
    agile people probably use the same model.


    Next up... AI snakeoil salesmen! I saw in the swedish mainstream news,
    that ex BP chairman Carl-Henrik Svanbergs has been the government AI-commissioner.

    He is now saying that only the government can make sweden a leading
    AI-nation. Therefore the government must create a program educating the population at large in Chat GPT, and it must "kickstart innovation".

    I find this hilarious since the Northvolt battery factory is filing for
    chapter 11 and the governments retirement funds invested some hundreds of millions of dollars in this green bubble. Now they will probably invite Microsoft to become swedens "AI" partner, teaching the population about
    Chat GPT, and probably a government requirement in all tenders for end
    user software must be that it has Chat GPT.

    Nothing like the government when it comes to inviting the latest snakeoil salesmen! =)

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Louis Krupp on Wed Nov 27 09:27:35 2024
    On 11/27/24 00:55, Louis Krupp wrote:
    On 11/26/2024 2:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be
    detected reliably.
    They do no such thing.
    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

    free(p);
    printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?

    In the example in the man page, if the two free() calls are back to back
    with no intervening malloc() calls, the double free() is detected. I
    tried adding a malloc(1000) call in the middle:

        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);

        malloc(1000);
        printf("%s(): returned from second malloc(1000) call\n", __func__);

        free(p);
        printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);

    and the program ran to completion with no apparent problem.


    Yes, possibly this malloc reassigned the same address as the unseen
    original malloc. In general, without fat pointers, it is hard to see how
    free could detect that memory had been reassigned.

    It is interesting to know that unoptimised compilations try to spot
    double free, but only a little interesting. I remember we ran a tool
    called Purify to spot this type of error, amongst other errors.
    Presumably that injected additional code to check reliably.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Chris Ahlstrom on Wed Nov 27 09:34:10 2024
    On 11/26/24 14:15, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    Rich wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

    <snip>

    The fundamental characteristic of a good programmer is to be able to
    deliver an application that is useful. Everything else is secondary.

    Nah, the application must also be maintainable.


    The need for maintainability is a consequence of people wanting to use a program. Even useful programs, may never need to be maintained.

    Additionally, too much concentration on maintainability in development
    can delay a project and cause cancellation before delivery.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Nov 27 11:58:35 2024
    On 26/11/2024 18:57, rbowman wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:17:08 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
    brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
    that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get back
    a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.

    The holy grail for management is a design methodology that gets adequate results from a workforce of varying aptitudes. Particularly for larger corporations you'll get a normal distribution, a few very good, a few completely useless, and a lot of mediocrity. That's what you have to work with.


    I've encountered that in my time in mil spec aerospace.
    A very few people analysed the project and broke it down in to circuit
    board specs.

    (Even down to a board the sized of a paperback with gold plated edge
    connector containing 6 resistors two capacitors and an 8 pin IC)

    Then a selection of random monkeys who could solder fucked around with
    random components *until it met the specification*.

    And the whole thing was a closed feedback loop. You went round and round
    until the whole bloody thing either met the spec, or ran out of
    government budget,

    What I've seen over the years is a company will luck out, get a better
    than average distribution, and achieve success. Whatever they're doing is taken as an example of the right way and copied mechanically. Top down structured programming, agile, devops, and so forth have their day.


    Indeed. At top management level, one does not care how they did it, only
    that they did.


    TI lucked out in the '70s and used something they called 'matrix
    management' that became the new Wunderkind. The '80s brought 'In Search of Excellence'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence

    Good money was made from book sales and training sessions from independent snake oil salesmen preaching the gospel. The company I worked for had one
    of the sessions. Not too many of the 'excellent' corporations are around today.

    I was surprised to discover that what I did naturally - coming in in the morning and looking around to see who looked miserable and asking them
    what was wrong, and then trying to sort it out, was actually known as 'management by walking about'


    About 10 years ago the company I now work for had a 'pair programming' session. That was hilarious. The 'experts' were only familiar with Apple machines and other than the one they brought there wasn't an Apple in the building. Having been through required attendance things before my team carefully stayed to the back of the room where we could slink away and get back to business.

    I'm sure the next methodology will wrap itself around AI, spin off
    training companies, and mostly fail to deliver on the promises.

    Nothing is worse than a CompSci graduate trying to introduce a whole new language based on its elegance, expect a MBA (Mostly bloody arseholes)
    trying to implement the latest fashionable management theory with no
    idea as to why it is fashionable, where it might fit, or what good it
    might do if any.



    --
    "What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
    "I don't."
    "Don't what?"
    "Think about Gay Marriage."

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Wed Nov 27 12:05:02 2024
    On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:

    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by
    ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
    the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

    Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the library.

    One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks,
    compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the
    pointer and if no match, segfault'

    I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to
    why the first is not always the case.


    --
    “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
    and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
    Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
    one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

    Paul Krugman

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 27 16:33:42 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:

    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by
    ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
    the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

    Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the library.

    One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks, compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the pointer and if no match, segfault'

    I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to
    why the first is not always the case.

    I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the
    effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized
    search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
    excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Wed Nov 27 17:20:44 2024
    On 27/11/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:

    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by
    ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per >>> the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

    Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the
    library.

    One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks,
    compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the
    pointer and if no match, segfault'

    I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to
    why the first is not always the case.

    I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the
    effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
    excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".


    Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
    but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
    blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that
    is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
    allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation,
    and deleting it from the list.

    It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that
    was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call



    --
    Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 27 18:51:19 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 12:05:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the pointer and if no match, segfault'

    https://elinux.org/Electric_Fence

    I often use efence as a quick check. valgrind is more comprehensive but
    when you run the programs with gdb any questionable access drops you into
    the debugger then and there.

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 27 18:32:25 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
    On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced
    by
    ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
    the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

    Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on
    the library.

    One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated
    blocks, compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with
    the pointer and if no match, segfault'

    I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as
    to why the first is not always the case.

    You can absolutely write an allocator that does that if you want. You’ll
    pay for it in performance and memory usage, but it might well be
    worthwhile in a given application.

    However, it doesn’t fully solve the problem. Suppose the sequence of operations (with lots going on between) happens to look like this:

    int *p = malloc(xxx);
    // ...
    free(p);
    // ...
    int *q = malloc(yyy);
    // ...
    free(p); // double free of p
    // ...
    *q = 1;

    If p!=q then a tracking allocator like you envisage would spot the
    error. But if it happens that p=q (which is entirely possible) then the tracking allocator won’t notice the problem. The program will start to misbehave seriously when the it access the (now freed) memory pointed to
    be q.

    Nulling out pointers after freeing them, as suggested elsewhere helps,
    but that depends on perfect play by human programmers, not something you
    want to rely on.


    To go further you need to track not just the status of each allocation
    but the provenance of the pointers to. valgrind does that (and a lot
    more) but the performance penalty means it’s only practical to use for testing and debugging.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 27 19:06:02 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 10:12:06 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(

    Apropos:

    https://www.infoworld.com/article/3612364/uspto-petitioned-to-cancel- oracles-javascript-trademark.html

    Oracle is doing their usual dog in the manger tactic with ECMAScript.
    They acquired the trademark from Sun and never had a part in it. I wonder
    if Eich wakes up at 3 AM thinking about what he created? He wasn't happy
    with the name in the first place.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 27 18:58:55 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:

    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by >>>> ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per >>>> the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

    Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the >>> library.

    One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks,
    compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the
    pointer and if no match, segfault'

    I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to >>> why the first is not always the case.

    I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the
    effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized
    search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
    excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".


    Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
    but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
    blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that
    is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
    allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation,
    and deleting it from the list.

    It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that
    was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call

    Yes, but now you burden /every/ free(ptr) call with an O(N) linear
    search of all allocated blocks to determine if "ptr" has been
    previously freed. With today's CPU's one could be excused in thinking
    "not such a big deal". In the days of a PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 CPU
    performance levels, doing an O(N) linear search, on every call to free,
    to catch something the programmer was never supposed to do in the first
    place, was likely viewed as too much overhead.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 27 19:12:28 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 11:58:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I've encountered that in my time in mil spec aerospace.
    A very few people analysed the project and broke it down in to circuit
    board specs.

    I worked on one DoD project in my career. I got bored and wandered off
    after 6 months of wrangling about the spec. About a year later I talked to
    one of the programmers who had stayed and asked if they'd written any code
    yet. "Nope."

    So much blood, sweat, tears, and ego involvement is involved in specs like
    that it will be implemented even if it becomes apparent it isn't going to
    work. Fiascos like the F-35 don't surprise me at all.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Nov 27 21:26:38 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 10:12:06 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(

    Apropos:

    https://www.infoworld.com/article/3612364/uspto-petitioned-to-cancel- oracles-javascript-trademark.html

    Oracle is doing their usual dog in the manger tactic with ECMAScript.
    They acquired the trademark from Sun and never had a part in it. I wonder
    if Eich wakes up at 3 AM thinking about what he created? He wasn't happy
    with the name in the first place.

    Ahh Oracle... a perfect example of what the maffia would look like if they
    were a corporation. ;)

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Pancho on Wed Nov 27 22:06:08 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 09:27:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I remember we ran a tool
    called Purify to spot this type of error, amongst other errors.
    Presumably that injected additional code to check reliably.

    As I understand it, Valgrind does it on your executable without source
    code changes.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Nov 27 22:11:19 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 17:20:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    ... my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
    blocks.

    Actually you want a list of free blocks. Structures that include allocated blocks would be for consistency-checking purposes.

    Then you have to decide on what to do if an allocation request doesn’t exactly match the size of an available free block: do you do “first-fit” (allocate part of the first block that’s big enough, and return the
    remainder to the free list) or “best-fit” (allocate part of the smallest available block that’s big enough, and return any leftover to the free
    list)? The latter might minimize fragmentation, but take more work.

    Then you might have “lookaside lists” for common block sizes, to speed up allocations of those sizes.

    Then you realize that having a single list becomes a bottleneck in a multithreaded program, so you really need multiple free lists. Then you
    have to watch out for certain lists shrinking while others grow, and
    figure out how to rebalance them once in a while.

    There’s a whole lot more to the issue, but you start to get the idea.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Wed Nov 27 22:13:58 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 01:39:34 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/25/24 4:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.

    Ummmmmm ... CAN use it for general programming ... but it's not super-pleasant :-)

    It attracts the kind of people who might have used BASIC before.

    Python is "better" - but not THAT much better.

    It’s a whole lot better. Nearly all of the language features are very carefully thought out. The result is that the core remains compact, yet is versatile, which is why you get so many library modules built on top of it
    -- because the language makes such modules very powerful.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Wed Nov 27 23:59:36 2024
    On 11/27/24 22:06, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 09:27:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I remember we ran a tool
    called Purify to spot this type of error, amongst other errors.
    Presumably that injected additional code to check reliably.

    As I understand it, Valgrind does it on your executable without source
    code changes.

    Yeah, It was 30 years ago, I think Purify modified binary code, not
    source code, but I can't really remember. I just remember Purify was brilliant..

    The proper term is "instrumentation".

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumentation_(computer_programming)>

    I note Valgrind Memcheck inserts instrumentation too.

    Development standards have improved, languages are much better now, but
    back then we really needed help. Our main problem was memory leaks, we
    had to regularly restart servers.

    We also used similar tools to provide data on program performance,
    profiling.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Pancho on Thu Nov 28 00:57:06 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:59:36 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 11/27/24 22:06, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 09:27:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    I remember we ran a tool called Purify to spot this type of error,
    amongst other errors.
    Presumably that injected additional code to check reliably.

    As I understand it, Valgrind does it on your executable without source
    code changes.

    Yeah, It was 30 years ago, I think Purify modified binary code, not
    source code, but I can't really remember. I just remember Purify was brilliant..

    I don't know if I would call it brilliant. We had a license for a while
    but didn't renew it since it was seldom used due to the complexity of
    setting up the instrumentation. I'd used BoundsChecker years ago and it
    was no prize either.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 27 23:12:47 2024
    On 11/27/24 4:12 AM, D wrote:


    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/26/24 4:12 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/25/24 4:56 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing >>>>>>>> ...
    get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to >>>>>>>> spot
    what's inside what without using comments.

    So use the comments. That’s what I do.

     Only good way ...

     Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
     spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.


    You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye
    spotting capability! ;)

     As I said to Larry, I almost always use just 2-space
     indents so deeply-nested stuff doesn't tend to run
     off the page margin. Object langs make this even worse
     with all the something.something.something.something
     sorts of lines.

     SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot
     nestings fairly well, but I mostly just use nano
     in one terminal and do test runs from another.
     Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
     most of the time.


    I use four, but since worked as a systems administrator (or what
    today be called "devops") I never wrote any programs large enough, or
    complicated enough, to run out of line space.

     My last big Python app was about 450 lines of code - and
     it had LOTS of option switches (TOO many!). Things got
     nested really deep sometimes.

     Shrank that to about 250 lines of Pascal (the re-think
     plus leaving out the options even I never used).

    This is what I do not like about power shell. Some of the commands
    are way too long to type. I like ls, df, du & co! It would be
    horrible to have to type list_files every time.

     I kinda have to admit, or brag, that I never used PowerShell.

     But yea, shortish generally IS a lot better. Longish is
     one reason I hate JS, and then there was COBOL  :-)

     Haven't done a COBOL app for a long time ... I'll have
     to do something ... found a COBOL IDE of sorts somewhere ...
     ah, OpenCobolIDE (a PyPy pgm).


    Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(

    "Rage" is MY reaction :-)

    Just NO EXCUSE to make it THAT horrible.

    Note that the 250 lines of pascal could be reduced further to 1 line if
    you find out the true name of god and use that instead!

    But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down
    the commode at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Wed Nov 27 22:46:17 2024
    On 11/27/24 5:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 01:39:34 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/25/24 4:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.

    Ummmmmm ... CAN use it for general programming ... but it's not
    super-pleasant :-)

    It attracts the kind of people who might have used BASIC before.

    I never really saw it as so "BASIC-like" ...

    To me the look&feel is kinda like a mix of tiny 'C',
    Bash and a bit of Java.

    In any case, best suited for web pages. That is
    its natural environment. I've writ some web
    stuff with kinda a lot of PHP in them. The most
    fun spawned a TEMPORARY mirror of the site in
    a TEMPORARY subdir that'd expire after 15 minutes
    of non-use. That way there was no permanent link
    hacks could keep attacking. The mother site was
    kept entirely off the webroot.

    Anyway, WordPress and Joomla and most anything
    else for the web is REALLY stupid and useless
    without PHP.

    Python is "better" - but not THAT much better.

    It’s a whole lot better. Nearly all of the language features are very carefully thought out. The result is that the core remains compact, yet is versatile, which is why you get so many library modules built on top of it
    -- because the language makes such modules very powerful.


    IMHO, 'C' and Pascal are The Best. Python is 'fair', and
    has become a little more fair over time.

    Other opinions will vary.

    These days you'll get the Rust crusaders :-)

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 28 05:52:37 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 22:46:17 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/27/24 5:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 01:39:34 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/25/24 4:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.

    Ummmmmm ... CAN use it for general programming ... but it's not
    super-pleasant :-)

    It attracts the kind of people who might have used BASIC before.

    I never really saw it as so "BASIC-like" ...

    The mentality of it.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 28 05:46:38 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 22:46:17 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    In any case, best suited for web pages. That is its natural
    environment. I've writ some web stuff with kinda a lot of PHP in
    them. The most fun spawned a TEMPORARY mirror of the site in a
    TEMPORARY subdir that'd expire after 15 minutes of non-use. That way
    there was no permanent link hacks could keep attacking. The mother
    site was kept entirely off the webroot.

    https://www.nusphere.com/php/php_history.htm


    Like Eich, Lerdorf probably didn't expect his Personal Home Page to
    spread.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 28 05:54:43 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode
    at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were a southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an essential food group.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Thu Nov 28 02:47:26 2024
    On 11/28/24 12:52 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 22:46:17 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/27/24 5:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 01:39:34 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/25/24 4:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.

    Ummmmmm ... CAN use it for general programming ... but it's not
    super-pleasant :-)

    It attracts the kind of people who might have used BASIC before.

    I never really saw it as so "BASIC-like" ...

    The mentality of it.


    Nah ... still don't see it ....

    But obviously it evokes BASIC to you, so ...

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Nov 28 02:22:36 2024
    On 11/28/24 12:54 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode
    at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were a southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an essential food group.


    Yea ... I've had to go pretty heavy keto in the
    past years ..... haven't eaten bread or rice or
    beans or Oreo cookies in almost 10 years now.

    Beats The Needle.

    Really MISS the packs of Oreo cookies ....

    But my dentist is happy.

    Oh, are you USA ? A "Stuckeys" was a kinda low-
    class crappy fast-food joint, usually located at
    the exits on interstate highways. Tiny burnt
    burgers. The toilets were nefarious ....... :-)

    As for Pascal - it's STILL my first love. Something
    'poetic' about it. Thank you Dr. Wirth ! Have
    proto-ed a lot of apps in Python, only to turn
    them into better FPC/Lazarus later.

    STILL can't find a Modula-3 compiler for Linux
    that actually works .......

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Nov 28 02:56:51 2024
    On 11/28/24 12:46 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 22:46:17 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    In any case, best suited for web pages. That is its natural
    environment. I've writ some web stuff with kinda a lot of PHP in
    them. The most fun spawned a TEMPORARY mirror of the site in a
    TEMPORARY subdir that'd expire after 15 minutes of non-use. That way
    there was no permanent link hacks could keep attacking. The mother
    site was kept entirely off the webroot.

    https://www.nusphere.com/php/php_history.htm


    Like Eich, Lerdorf probably didn't expect his Personal Home Page to
    spread.


    Well, there IS a certain v0.5 feel about it :-)

    But it still Gets It Done.

    I like PHP because it makes the gigabuck SERVER do
    most of the work, unlike JS.

    Once wrote a short JS with lots of deep math/trig and
    string stuff in it - just a few lines - to punish
    people who didn't know the password. All the cooling
    fans would rev up to full almost instantly :-)

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 28 08:38:24 2024
    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:22:36 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Oh, are you USA ? A "Stuckeys" was a kinda low- class crappy
    fast-food joint, usually located at the exits on interstate highways.
    Tiny burnt burgers. The toilets were nefarious .......

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuckey's

    It's been over 60 years but I don't think they ever had fast food back
    then. They specialized in pecans and had just the nuts, shelled or
    unshelled, but had a lot of nut based candies that I would consider sickly sweet these days. That's in keeping with southern tastes. They favor sweet
    tea that a hummingbird would consider overkill.

    They also had novelty gifts. I remember one was a small box labeled Pecans
    that had two miniature milk cans when you opened it. The humor is obscure unless you understand the difference between the northern and southern pronunciations.

    On the '50s and into the '60s it was a different world south of the Mason
    Dixon line. When we visited my brother at Huntsville AL in '58 it was
    still segregated. Wernher von Braun and his crew must have found it
    ironical.

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to Rich on Thu Nov 28 08:35:22 2024
    Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
    but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
    blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make
    allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that
    is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
    allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation,
    and deleting it from the list.

    It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that
    was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call

    Yes, but now you burden /every/ free(ptr) call with an O(N) linear
    search of all allocated blocks to determine if "ptr" has been
    previously freed.

    Obviously a real implementation would use a faster data structure. But
    see my other post for why this idea isn’t enough to solve the
    problem. You need either full pointer provenance tracking
    (e.g. valgrind, rather slowly), or in-band pointer tagging (e.g. CHERI,
    if I understand correctly) or a different allocation model which
    eliminates the problem at source (e.g. any number of languages with
    automated memory management).

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 28 08:52:29 2024
    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:56:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:


    Well, there IS a certain v0.5 feel about it

    But it still Gets It Done.

    I like PHP because it makes the gigabuck SERVER do most of the work,
    unlike JS.

    Once wrote a short JS with lots of deep math/trig and string stuff in
    it - just a few lines - to punish people who didn't know the
    password. All the cooling fans would rev up to full almost instantly


    I used CGI and FastCGI mostly, and then Node.js eventually. The server
    side js did a little work but with the Esri JavaScript API the client side
    did most of the heavy lifting. The backend served up GeoJSON but other processes created it. The most work was querying the database for
    historical information in a couple of applications like crime analysis.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Thu Nov 28 09:16:51 2024
    On 27/11/2024 18:58, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:

    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by >>>>> ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
    the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

    Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the >>>> library.

    One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks, >>>> compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the >>>> pointer and if no match, segfault'

    I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to >>>> why the first is not always the case.

    I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the
    effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized
    search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
    excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".


    Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
    but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
    blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make
    allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that
    is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
    allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation,
    and deleting it from the list.

    It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that
    was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call

    Yes, but now you burden /every/ free(ptr) call with an O(N) linear
    search of all allocated blocks to determine if "ptr" has been
    previously freed. With today's CPU's one could be excused in thinking
    "not such a big deal". In the days of a PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 CPU
    performance levels, doing an O(N) linear search, on every call to free,
    to catch something the programmer was never supposed to do in the first place, was likely viewed as too much overhead.

    How else would you do it?

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Nov 28 09:18:50 2024
    On 27/11/2024 19:12, rbowman wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 11:58:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I've encountered that in my time in mil spec aerospace.
    A very few people analysed the project and broke it down in to circuit
    board specs.

    I worked on one DoD project in my career. I got bored and wandered off
    after 6 months of wrangling about the spec. About a year later I talked to one of the programmers who had stayed and asked if they'd written any code yet. "Nope."

    So much blood, sweat, tears, and ego involvement is involved in specs like that it will be implemented even if it becomes apparent it isn't going to work. Fiascos like the F-35 don't surprise me at all.

    The amazing thing was that random monkeys did in the end through a
    process of iteration 'hit upon the right thing, after exhausting every
    other alternative'



    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Thu Nov 28 09:16:11 2024
    On 27/11/2024 18:32, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
    On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced
    by
    ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per >>> the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

    Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on
    the library.

    One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated
    blocks, compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with
    the pointer and if no match, segfault'

    I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as
    to why the first is not always the case.

    You can absolutely write an allocator that does that if you want. You’ll pay for it in performance and memory usage, but it might well be
    worthwhile in a given application.

    However, it doesn’t fully solve the problem. Suppose the sequence of operations (with lots going on between) happens to look like this:

    int *p = malloc(xxx);
    // ...
    free(p);
    // ...
    int *q = malloc(yyy);
    // ...
    free(p); // double free of p
    // ...
    *q = 1;

    If p!=q then a tracking allocator like you envisage would spot the
    error. But if it happens that p=q (which is entirely possible) then the tracking allocator won’t notice the problem. The program will start to misbehave seriously when the it access the (now freed) memory pointed to
    be q.

    Ah. But I cant see how to prevent that unless you give every block a UID
    as well.
    Which isn't a huge overhead.


    Nulling out pointers after freeing them, as suggested elsewhere helps,
    but that depends on perfect play by human programmers, not something you
    want to rely on.


    To go further you need to track not just the status of each allocation
    but the provenance of the pointers to. valgrind does that (and a lot
    more) but the performance penalty means it’s only practical to use for testing and debugging.

    Yup. As above. But I still cant see how you can do the job much faster
    than how I outlined above.


    --
    To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 28 11:03:28 2024
    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:



    Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(

    "Rage" is MY reaction :-)

    Just NO EXCUSE to make it THAT horrible.

    This is the truth!

    Note that the 250 lines of pascal could be reduced further to 1 line if you >> find out the true name of god and use that instead!

    But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down
    the commode at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    Damn it! ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Nov 28 11:04:54 2024
    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode
    at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were a southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to
    sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy
    it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a
    hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Nov 28 14:19:33 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 18:58, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:

    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by >>>>>> ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
    the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

    Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the >>>>> library.

    One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks, >>>>> compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the >>>>> pointer and if no match, segfault'

    I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to >>>>> why the first is not always the case.

    I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the
    effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized >>>> search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
    excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".


    Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
    but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
    blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make
    allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that
    is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
    allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation,
    and deleting it from the list.

    It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that >>> was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call

    Yes, but now you burden /every/ free(ptr) call with an O(N) linear
    search of all allocated blocks to determine if "ptr" has been
    previously freed. With today's CPU's one could be excused in thinking
    "not such a big deal". In the days of a PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 CPU
    performance levels, doing an O(N) linear search, on every call to free,
    to catch something the programmer was never supposed to do in the first
    place, was likely viewed as too much overhead.

    How else would you do it?

    For performance reasons you'd want to maintain some index data
    structure that can be searched faster than O(N), which becomes
    additional overhead for the malloc's and for free. As well, as Richard
    K. also says in his posts, just that is not enough to track and ignore
    all double free operations. Which adds on even more overhead.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 28 18:22:29 2024
    On 28/11/2024 10:04, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode >>>    at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
    were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy
    it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a
    hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.

    Sadly with age I have had to abandon nearly all starch, as well as
    nearly all vegetables. I have more than one condition kept in check my
    diets so strict they make life increasingly miserable...it's now more a question of what I can eat, rather than what I can't.

    Life's a bitch
    And then you die.


    --
    Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
    twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
    on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
    projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

    Richard Lindzen

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Thu Nov 28 18:19:26 2024
    On 28/11/2024 14:19, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 18:58, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
    The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:

    1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by >>>>>>> ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
    the second sentence);
    and
    2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.

    Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the >>>>>> library.

    One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks, >>>>>> compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'

    Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the >>>>>> pointer and if no match, segfault'

    I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to >>>>>> why the first is not always the case.

    I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the >>>>> effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized >>>>> search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
    excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".


    Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
    but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
    blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make >>>> allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that >>>> is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
    allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation, >>>> and deleting it from the list.

    It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that >>>> was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call

    Yes, but now you burden /every/ free(ptr) call with an O(N) linear
    search of all allocated blocks to determine if "ptr" has been
    previously freed. With today's CPU's one could be excused in thinking
    "not such a big deal". In the days of a PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 CPU
    performance levels, doing an O(N) linear search, on every call to free,
    to catch something the programmer was never supposed to do in the first
    place, was likely viewed as too much overhead.

    How else would you do it?

    For performance reasons you'd want to maintain some index data
    structure that can be searched faster than O(N), which becomes
    additional overhead for the malloc's and for free. As well, as Richard
    K. also says in his posts, just that is not enough to track and ignore
    all double free operations. Which adds on even more overhead.

    Its not hard to do a binary search on an ordered linked list, and its a
    piece if piss to insert to make it ordered


    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Thu Nov 28 19:59:50 2024
    On 2024-11-27, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 10:12:06 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(

    Apropos:

    https://www.infoworld.com/article/3612364/uspto-petitioned-to-cancel-
    oracles-javascript-trademark.html

    Oracle is doing their usual dog in the manger tactic with ECMAScript.
    They acquired the trademark from Sun and never had a part in it. I wonder
    if Eich wakes up at 3 AM thinking about what he created? He wasn't happy
    with the name in the first place.

    Ahh Oracle... a perfect example of what the maffia would look like if they were a corporation. ;)

    I saw a wonderful tongue-in-cheek article years ago (and unfortunately can't find it again). ("Your CPU will melt! And you'll PAY us for the privilege!") It ended with the words:

    We have a hammer.
    Your problem is a nail.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Nov 28 21:52:47 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 28/11/2024 10:04, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode >>>>    at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were a >>> southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>> essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to
    sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy it. >> Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a hot
    summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.

    Sadly with age I have had to abandon nearly all starch, as well as nearly all vegetables. I have more than one condition kept in check my diets so strict they make life increasingly miserable...it's now more a question of what I can eat, rather than what I can't.

    This is very sad to hear. Maybe someone wise in the ways of science can
    come up with a better cure than just diet restrictions?

    Life's a bitch
    And then you die.

    Ahh! But then you go to heaven and get free music lessons!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Thu Nov 28 21:53:13 2024
    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-11-27, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 10:12:06 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(

    Apropos:

    https://www.infoworld.com/article/3612364/uspto-petitioned-to-cancel-
    oracles-javascript-trademark.html

    Oracle is doing their usual dog in the manger tactic with ECMAScript.
    They acquired the trademark from Sun and never had a part in it. I wonder >>> if Eich wakes up at 3 AM thinking about what he created? He wasn't happy >>> with the name in the first place.

    Ahh Oracle... a perfect example of what the maffia would look like if they >> were a corporation. ;)

    I saw a wonderful tongue-in-cheek article years ago (and unfortunately can't find it again). ("Your CPU will melt! And you'll PAY us for the privilege!")
    It ended with the words:

    We have a hammer.
    Your problem is a nail.

    Brilliant!

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Nov 28 21:36:10 2024
    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:56:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    But [PHP] still Gets It Done.

    Unfortunately, the fact that it is architected around the HTTP request/ response model limits its flexibility somewhat. For example, it makes it awkward to handle WebSocket connections.

    For contrast, Python has an event-driven specification called ASGI, which
    deals with both regular HTTP connections and WebSockets in a single
    framework. And it also handles long-running background processes as well (another thing PHP tends to have trouble with).

    I like PHP because it makes the gigabuck SERVER do
    most of the work, unlike JS.

    Heard of Node JS?

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 29 03:21:35 2024
    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode >>>    at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
    were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy
    it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a
    hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.


    I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
    totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

    "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

    Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Nov 29 03:18:17 2024
    On 11/28/24 3:38 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:22:36 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Oh, are you USA ? A "Stuckeys" was a kinda low- class crappy
    fast-food joint, usually located at the exits on interstate highways.
    Tiny burnt burgers. The toilets were nefarious .......

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuckey's

    It's been over 60 years but I don't think they ever had fast food back
    then. They specialized in pecans and had just the nuts, shelled or
    unshelled, but had a lot of nut based candies that I would consider sickly sweet these days. That's in keeping with southern tastes. They favor sweet tea that a hummingbird would consider overkill.

    "Stuckeys" was maybe 1965 on.

    https://stuckeys.com/our-locations/

    Alas not ENTIRELY gone ... terrible burnt/greasy
    food. BUT, to the hungry burnt-out hung-over
    highway traveler, well .....

    They also had novelty gifts. I remember one was a small box labeled Pecans that had two miniature milk cans when you opened it. The humor is obscure unless you understand the difference between the northern and southern pronunciations.

    On the '50s and into the '60s it was a different world south of the Mason Dixon line. When we visited my brother at Huntsville AL in '58 it was
    still segregated. Wernher von Braun and his crew must have found it
    ironical.

    It's still a different world south of the line :-)

    Not Von Braun's America, but still "different".
    I'd say "more real" as opposed to the yankee
    intellectual/ideological abstractions.

    Oh well, all of that is taking full power in a
    couple of months.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 29 10:29:24 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode >>>>    at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were a >>> southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>> essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to
    sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy it. >> Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a hot
    summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.


    I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
    totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

    "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

    Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...


    Looking at my father who is 32 years older, I think the pattern holds,
    although at times, he can eat way more candy than I can. His doctors has
    called him naughty due to elevated blood sugar levels, so he had to cut
    down.

    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
    and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
    gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead. End result: happy patient! ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 04:24:48 2024
    On 11/28/24 1:22 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 28/11/2024 10:04, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the
    commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
    were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>> essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive
    to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
    enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20
    cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.

    Sadly with age I have had to abandon nearly all starch, as well as
    nearly all vegetables. I have more than one condition kept in check my
    diets so strict they make life increasingly miserable...it's now more a question of what I can eat, rather than what I can't.

    Life's a bitch
    And then you die.

    Well ... you can drag that last bit out quite a bit
    by not eating 5000 cals of sugar/equivs every day :-)

    Let's see ... today ... egg sandwich without the bread,
    turkey sub contents (sans bread), ONE peanut-butter cup
    (GOTTA have a LITTLE fix), HALF the contents of small
    "American Sub" - bird/salami/ham, a small quantity of
    nuts and a couple drinks to kill the pain ... and that's
    it. Mostly skip the salami stuff but the stores don't
    always have what I want - more turkey. Prob most all
    vitamins from the egg. This has been it for almost 10
    years now. Sugar levels "holding" around 90.

    ONCE a week either a 4-piece KFC, stripped of greasy
    skin, or two beef hot-dogs. Even a trace of those
    11 herbs & spices are STILL tasty. Tonight, one
    can of albacore tuna (spend a tiny bit xtra on
    the higher-quality stuff).

    But a Horrible Truth. Early this year a small town
    in the US heartland (Tennessee/W.VA ?) was in the
    news because a landslide had largely cut off the
    roads. The News went to the city council meeting
    where many of the residents were complaining about
    the lack of supplies. ALMOST TO THE PERSON they
    were SO fat that you could have literally rolled
    them down a hill - not kidding - I mean REALLY fat -
    like 9999 cal/day of junk carbs & beer fat. Men,
    women, the kids - all of them.

    They were in a panic at the thought of cutting back
    to just maybe 7000 cals for a week or two .......

    Even in my high-cal youth it was NOT like this and
    we DID suck down a LOT of "junk" - ALWAYS huge bags
    of chips and chocolate cookies and cheeze puffs and
    greasy salted bits. NOT sure what the hell has happened.
    You'd almost think some secret bio-warfare ingredient
    was introduced like 25 years ago ......

    Maybe RFK can sort it out. Not so hopeful though ...

    Ah, "Buffy" is over ... time to go to bed. Clearly
    I'm bio-fixed on a "night shift" cycle. Screw the
    fuckin' self-superior dawn-2-dusk farmers, too 1700s :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Nov 29 04:48:40 2024
    On 11/28/24 3:52 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:56:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:


    Well, there IS a certain v0.5 feel about it

    But it still Gets It Done.

    I like PHP because it makes the gigabuck SERVER do most of the work,
    unlike JS.

    Once wrote a short JS with lots of deep math/trig and string stuff in
    it - just a few lines - to punish people who didn't know the
    password. All the cooling fans would rev up to full almost instantly


    I used CGI and FastCGI mostly, and then Node.js eventually. The server
    side js did a little work but with the Esri JavaScript API the client side did most of the heavy lifting. The backend served up GeoJSON but other processes created it. The most work was querying the database for
    historical information in a couple of applications like crime analysis.

    My last org did use ESRI - there has to be a muta-acronym
    for "rip off LOTS of money because we CAN".

    But, I never scripted it.

    Took one or two classes - but the product was changing
    so fast they were just useless.

    Oddly, my previous boss and I wanted to WRITE a GIS
    way back in the mid 80s ... but the subject was too
    deep and we never really got to it.

    Anyway, try to make the gigabuck server farms do
    most of the work :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 10:01:06 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
    On 27/11/2024 18:32, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    You can absolutely write an allocator that does that if you
    want. You’ll
    pay for it in performance and memory usage, but it might well be
    worthwhile in a given application.
    However, it doesn’t fully solve the problem. Suppose the sequence of
    operations (with lots going on between) happens to look like this:
    int *p = malloc(xxx);
    // ...
    free(p);
    // ...
    int *q = malloc(yyy);
    // ...
    free(p); // double free of p
    // ...
    *q = 1;
    If p!=q then a tracking allocator like you envisage would spot the
    error. But if it happens that p=q (which is entirely possible) then the
    tracking allocator won’t notice the problem. The program will start to
    misbehave seriously when the it access the (now freed) memory pointed to
    be q.

    Ah. But I cant see how to prevent that unless you give every block a
    UID as well.
    Which isn't a huge overhead.

    No, there’s only one block of memory in play here, so that won’t
    help.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Fri Nov 29 05:06:58 2024
    On 11/28/24 4:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:56:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    But [PHP] still Gets It Done.

    Unfortunately, the fact that it is architected around the HTTP request/ response model limits its flexibility somewhat. For example, it makes it awkward to handle WebSocket connections.

    It's awkward for a lot of things.

    But remember, it grew up right at the same time
    the web did ... "sophistication" really wasn't
    the priority then.

    PHP *can* be used for most anything web-related,
    and even as a stand-alone, but it's not gonna
    be super-easy for all that. It is what it is.

    For contrast, Python has an event-driven specification called ASGI, which deals with both regular HTTP connections and WebSockets in a single framework. And it also handles long-running background processes as well (another thing PHP tends to have trouble with).

    Python grew up a bit later.

    And it isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.

    Kinda surprised there's no real "Web-PY" scripting app
    (kinda aside from Flask) to compete head to head with
    PHP for server-side.

    I like PHP because it makes the gigabuck SERVER do
    most of the work, unlike JS.

    Heard of Node JS?

    Heard, but never USED. I can DO web pages, but it's
    not my favorite kind of programming. Had to do pages
    for a "digital signage" app - pick yer pix/text/vids
    and set order/duration/transitions/etc. Got it to
    WORK (alas some PHP had to make files to xfer info
    to other PHPs) but NOT really pleasant. Apparently
    there's a canned DS Linux 'distro' now, but I've
    never tried it. Retired now, never will.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 10:11:00 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
    On 28/11/2024 14:19, Rich wrote:
    For performance reasons you'd want to maintain some index data
    structure that can be searched faster than O(N), which becomes
    additional overhead for the malloc's and for free. As well, as Richard
    K. also says in his posts, just that is not enough to track and ignore
    all double free operations. Which adds on even more overhead.

    Its not hard to do a binary search on an ordered linked list, and its
    a piece if piss to insert to make it ordered

    Binary search on a doubly linked list would have O(n) time
    complexity. For a singly linked list, you’re looking at more like
    O(n.log n). Both would have truly terribly cache behavior, further
    impacting performance.

    A linear search would actually be faster than this proposal. The right
    answer is a balanced tree or a hash table.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 29 13:24:31 2024
    On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:
    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
    and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
    gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
    End result: happy patient!

    Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too much
    starch.

    I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks
    are happy with the results.

    Statins are fucking dreadful.


    --
    The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
    private property.

    Karl Marx

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 29 13:18:21 2024
    On 29/11/2024 08:18, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    It's still a different world south of the line  🙂

      Not Von Braun's America, but still "different".
      I'd say "more real" as opposed to the yankee
      intellectual/ideological abstractions.

      Oh well, all of that is taking full power in a
      couple of months.

    Not just south, but West, if you ignore the fantasy existence of
    Californians and the brown-rice-and-hiking-boots people of the North West.

    I once defined New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have
    your heart in the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your
    hand is in someone else's pocket..

    Its OK for hippies to live like that: Just not the whole government

    --
    “Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

    – Ludwig von Mises

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 29 13:22:01 2024
    On 29/11/2024 09:24, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 1:22 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 28/11/2024 10:04, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the
    commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
    were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar
    as an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive
    to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
    enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20
    cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.

    Sadly with age I have had to abandon nearly all starch, as well as
    nearly all vegetables. I have more than one condition kept in check my
    diets so strict they make life increasingly miserable...it's now more
    a question of what I can eat, rather than what I can't.

    Life's a bitch
    And then you die.

      Well ... you can drag that last bit out quite a bit
      by not eating 5000 cals of sugar/equivs every day  :-)


    I cant even hack 50g of wheat starch in a day.

      Ah, "Buffy" is over ... time to go to bed. Clearly
      I'm bio-fixed on a "night shift" cycle. Screw the
      fuckin' self-superior dawn-2-dusk farmers, too 1700s :-)

    I recorded the whole damn series when I finally got to watch it two
    years ago.
    I wonder if I'll ever watch it again.

    --
    "In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
    true: it is true because it is powerful."

    Lucas Bergkamp

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 29 13:19:11 2024
    On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the
    commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
    were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>> essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive
    to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
    enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20
    cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.


      I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
      totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

      "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

      Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though :-)

    --
    "In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
    true: it is true because it is powerful."

    Lucas Bergkamp

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 29 18:06:58 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Kinda surprised there's no real "Web-PY" scripting app (kinda aside
    from Flask) to compete head to head with PHP for server-side.

    https://data-flair.training/blogs/django-vs-php/

    https://devtechnosys.com/insights/tech-comparison/flask-vs-php/

    https://blog.jetbrains.com/pycharm/2023/11/django-vs-flask-which-is-the- best-python-web-framework/


    FastAPI is gaining popularity. Like it says it's faster than django or
    flask and is very nice for REST work. You can create a REST interface with django but it's an uphill fight.

    PHP has momentum and plenty of legacy sites but as Python becomes the
    Swiss Army knife I think it owns the future.

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 18:23:14 2024
    On 2024-11-29, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:

    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
    and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
    gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
    End result: happy patient!

    Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too much starch.

    I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks
    are happy with the results.

    Statins are fucking dreadful.

    In what way? I take 10mg of Crestor (rosuvastatin) daily and don't
    have any problems. I can even eat grapefruit.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 29 18:39:06 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 04:24:48 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Even in my high-cal youth it was NOT like this and we DID suck down a
    LOT of "junk" - ALWAYS huge bags of chips and chocolate cookies and
    cheeze puffs and greasy salted bits. NOT sure what the hell has
    happened.
    You'd almost think some secret bio-warfare ingredient was introduced
    like 25 years ago ......

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 18:57:57 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:19:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though

    My menu varies between pig and cow with a sheep thrown in every few
    months. Sometimes it's pig and cow together since I throw a pound or so of ground pork in my meatloaf.

    I was on a fish kick and got tired of it except for pickled herring.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 29 18:53:55 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 10:29:24 +0100, D wrote:

    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
    and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
    gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
    End result: happy patient!

    I had my yearly physical Monday and my doctor is happy with my
    cholesterol. with the HDL well over 60 mg/dL and LDL toward the low end of
    the scale. My vegetable intake is mostly garlic and onions, fried in olive
    oil, with two eggs and a slice of cheese. I did eat a yam yesterday with a slice of rib roast. Last week I made a batch of Jaegerkohl which at
    least has cabbage along with the bacon, kielbasa, and ground beef. Onion
    and garlic, of course, and I even threw in a couple of carrots.

    I don't dislike vegetables but I seldom remember to buy any. Except onions
    and garlic. Are you seeing a pattern here?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 29 19:32:07 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 04:48:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    My last org did use ESRI - there has to be a muta-acronym
    for "rip off LOTS of money because we CAN".

    They do that very well. There are alternatives like QGIS and the
    associated GDAL tools, leaflet for JavasScript pages, and MapServer but
    like OBM and Windows nobody ever got fired for using Esri.

    Took one or two classes - but the product was changing so fast they
    were just useless.

    The transition from 8.x to 9.x was painful. I went to a seminar that was
    mostly Forest Service people and they were not happy when they were told
    it wasn't an easy migration. 9.x to 10.x made some changes in the way an application initialized the license but it was mostly incremental
    improvements. 10.x to 11.x was a breaking change. 10.x was 32-bit and they
    went completely to 64-bit.

    It wasn't exactly a surprise. Jack Dangermond always had a vision of
    moving everything to the cloud (ArcGIS Online) and wasn't shy about
    outlining the future in his presentations. The users got dragged along
    kicking and screaming.

    Oddly, my previous boss and I wanted to WRITE a GIS way back in the
    mid 80s ... but the subject was too deep and we never really got to
    it.

    The company I work for did develop a GIS system in the '90s. The database
    used was dbVista which had advantages over the hybrid DBase shapefiles
    Esri used. However the dispatch software was the product, not the
    underlying GIS. Around 2005 more sites were using Esri and we offered it
    as an option and eventually it dominated.

    Typically a dispatch center does not have their own geodata. A county or municipality uses Esri for their own purposes and we grab centerline and landmark data from them. That has the advantage of picking up new data
    long before it trickles down to Google, TIGER/Line, HERE or any of the
    other sources.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Fri Nov 29 21:01:31 2024
    On 29/11/2024 18:23, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-11-29, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:

    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol, >>> and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
    gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
    End result: happy patient!

    Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too much
    starch.

    I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks
    are happy with the results.

    Statins are fucking dreadful.

    In what way? I take 10mg of Crestor (rosuvastatin) daily and don't
    have any problems. I can even eat grapefruit.

    Muscle cramps were dreadful.


    --
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
    returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

    Mark Twain

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Nov 29 21:04:31 2024
    On 29/11/2024 18:57, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:19:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though

    My menu varies between pig and cow with a sheep thrown in every few
    months. Sometimes it's pig and cow together since I throw a pound or so of ground pork in my meatloaf.

    Excellent. I'll be round later.


    I was on a fish kick and got tired of it except for pickled herring.

    Yup. I am not massively keen on fish but I like the pickled herrings and
    smoked mackerrel, seafood and the occasional tuna, swordfish or salmon
    steak. And sea bream.

    Don't you shoot bambies for the pot? best meat ever.

    --
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
    returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

    Mark Twain

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 22:50:16 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were >>>> a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>>> essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to >>> sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy
    it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a
    hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.


      I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
      totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

      "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

      Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though :-)

    Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me
    vegetables sometimes. That makes me cry.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Nov 29 21:42:36 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    [Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.

    There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 22:51:03 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:
    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
    and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never gonna >> happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead. End
    result: happy patient!

    Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too much starch.

    I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks are happy with the results.

    Statins are fucking dreadful.

    We will study Jordan Petersons future health with great interest!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Nov 29 22:52:16 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 10:29:24 +0100, D wrote:

    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
    and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
    gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
    End result: happy patient!

    I had my yearly physical Monday and my doctor is happy with my
    cholesterol. with the HDL well over 60 mg/dL and LDL toward the low end of the scale. My vegetable intake is mostly garlic and onions, fried in olive oil, with two eggs and a slice of cheese. I did eat a yam yesterday with a slice of rib roast. Last week I made a batch of Jaegerkohl which at
    least has cabbage along with the bacon, kielbasa, and ground beef. Onion
    and garlic, of course, and I even threw in a couple of carrots.

    I don't dislike vegetables but I seldom remember to buy any. Except onions and garlic. Are you seeing a pattern here?


    You are a wise man, and also, a skilled cook!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Nov 29 22:53:35 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:19:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though

    My menu varies between pig and cow with a sheep thrown in every few
    months. Sometimes it's pig and cow together since I throw a pound or so of ground pork in my meatloaf.

    I was on a fish kick and got tired of it except for pickled herring.

    Pickled herring is the Donald Trump of herrings! Highly recommended! On my side, it's mostly pork and beef during autumn and winter. Spring and
    summer a lot of fish (self-caught) is added.

    Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or
    leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it. ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 22:54:29 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 18:57, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:19:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though

    My menu varies between pig and cow with a sheep thrown in every few
    months. Sometimes it's pig and cow together since I throw a pound or so of >> ground pork in my meatloaf.

    Excellent. I'll be round later.


    I was on a fish kick and got tired of it except for pickled herring.

    Yup. I am not massively keen on fish but I like the pickled herrings and smoked mackerrel, seafood and the occasional tuna, swordfish or salmon steak. And sea bream.

    Don't you shoot bambies for the pot? best meat ever.

    Bambies is excellent meat! This is scientifically proven! Mackerel is also
    very good fish, I agree!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 22:43:50 2024
    On 11/29/24 13:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:
    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in
    cholesterol, and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him
    that's never gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some
    medicine instead. End result: happy patient!

    Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too much starch.

    I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks
    are happy with the results.

    Statins are fucking dreadful.


    I've taken simvastatin for over 25 years, and BP meds. I don't think I
    have side effects.

    The doctor says I should have a yearly review. In the review, the
    clinician asks do you have side effects? I say how would I know what
    are side effects and what is unrelated. The review clinician skips on,
    saying side effects normally happen in the first few months. Next review
    I'm going prepared. I'm going to make a long list of every ache and pain
    I have.

    Are you sure Cholesterol is due to starch? Last time I looked it was
    saturated fats, and possibly starch. To be fair I've never been able to
    work out what affects me. Benecol spread, stanols, seem to help, but I
    have that on bread.

    I think, maybe, stress made it worse.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 30 00:07:40 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 21:04:31 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Don't you shoot bambies for the pot? best meat ever.

    Nah. Around here I just have to hit them over the head with my 10" cast
    iron frying pan when they're grazing on the lawn.

    I was thinking about hitting one of the turkeys lounging around in the
    middle of the road and claiming it as road kill but given the timing I
    thought that might be suspicious. That didn't work with the last Bambi I
    hit either. He left the scene of the accident. Just as well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lndICo6_XOY

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 30 00:12:44 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:

    Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.

    At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean
    protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex.
    Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then I'd as
    soon feed the breast meat to the cat.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 30 00:17:13 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:51:03 +0100, D wrote:

    We will study Jordan Petersons future health with great interest!

    Mental? Did he mix in statins with the SSRIs, benzos, and ketamine?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 30 00:21:44 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:52:16 +0100, D wrote:

    You are a wise man, and also, a skilled cook!

    I was taught well. Both of my parents worked so whoever got home first
    started supper. One summer day when all the windows were open my mother
    walked down the driveway and yelled "Jesus Christ, Nels! Not onions
    again!" When in doubt, peel an onion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 30 01:18:28 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:18:21 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I once defined New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have
    your heart in the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your
    hand is in someone else's pocket..

    Sounds a lot like Apple Inc?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Nov 29 23:42:32 2024
    On 11/29/24 8:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 29/11/2024 09:24, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 1:22 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 28/11/2024 10:04, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>> commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
    were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar
    as an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly
    sensitive to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
    enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink
    15-20 cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.

    Sadly with age I have had to abandon nearly all starch, as well as
    nearly all vegetables. I have more than one condition kept in check
    my diets so strict they make life increasingly miserable...it's now
    more a question of what I can eat, rather than what I can't.

    Life's a bitch
    And then you die.

       Well ... you can drag that last bit out quite a bit
       by not eating 5000 cals of sugar/equivs every day  :-)


    I cant even hack 50g of wheat starch in a day.

    I've become kind of the same way. Likely cutting WAY
    back on the sugar-equivs for a time lowers your tolerance.

       Ah, "Buffy" is over ... time to go to bed. Clearly
       I'm bio-fixed on a "night shift" cycle. Screw the
       fuckin' self-superior dawn-2-dusk farmers, too 1700s :-)

    I recorded the whole damn series when I finally got to watch it two
    years ago.
    I wonder if I'll ever watch it again.


    It was a *clever* series - well-writ with competent
    actors. Somewhere between 'horror' and comedy with a
    good dose of 'quirk' and some 'soap opera' thrown in.

    Take a year off and then re-watch.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Nov 29 23:44:40 2024
    On 11/29/24 1:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 04:24:48 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Even in my high-cal youth it was NOT like this and we DID suck down a
    LOT of "junk" - ALWAYS huge bags of chips and chocolate cookies and
    cheeze puffs and greasy salted bits. NOT sure what the hell has
    happened.
    You'd almost think some secret bio-warfare ingredient was introduced
    like 25 years ago ......

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup

    MAYbe ....

    But I still wonder about some of the ingredients
    way down on the list.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Nov 29 23:31:33 2024
    On 11/29/24 1:53 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 10:29:24 +0100, D wrote:

    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
    and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
    gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
    End result: happy patient!

    I had my yearly physical Monday and my doctor is happy with my
    cholesterol. with the HDL well over 60 mg/dL and LDL toward the low end of the scale. My vegetable intake is mostly garlic and onions, fried in olive oil, with two eggs and a slice of cheese. I did eat a yam yesterday with a slice of rib roast. Last week I made a batch of Jaegerkohl which at
    least has cabbage along with the bacon, kielbasa, and ground beef. Onion
    and garlic, of course, and I even threw in a couple of carrots.

    I don't dislike vegetables but I seldom remember to buy any. Except onions and garlic. Are you seeing a pattern here?


    Onions + Garlic + Cabbage .... wow, you Really REALLY
    vont to be alone :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 29 23:50:54 2024
    On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>> commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
    were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar
    as an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly
    sensitive to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
    enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink
    15-20 cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.


       I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
       totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

       "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

       Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though :-)

    Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me
    vegetables sometimes. That makes me cry.


    My granny despised "rabbit food" - stuck to the N.Euro
    boiled meat/potatoes almost entirely. Lived well to 99.

    I inherited her taste buds.

    Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
    I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sat Nov 30 00:19:28 2024
    On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    [Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.

    There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.

    Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds
    to me. Some server-side Py interpreter as completely
    at home as PHP is what we're looking for.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 30 00:16:47 2024
    On 11/29/24 1:06 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Kinda surprised there's no real "Web-PY" scripting app (kinda aside
    from Flask) to compete head to head with PHP for server-side.

    https://data-flair.training/blogs/django-vs-php/

    https://devtechnosys.com/insights/tech-comparison/flask-vs-php/

    https://blog.jetbrains.com/pycharm/2023/11/django-vs-flask-which-is-the- best-python-web-framework/


    Of course to do server-side the server has to have
    a Py/'webPY' interpreter running. They all have PHP,
    'legacy', but the server lords REALLY don't love having
    to take the burden so I wonder how many would install
    a Py equiv.


    FastAPI is gaining popularity. Like it says it's faster than django or
    flask and is very nice for REST work. You can create a REST interface with django but it's an uphill fight.

    PHP has momentum and plenty of legacy sites but as Python becomes the
    Swiss Army knife I think it owns the future.

    Agreed there. Python does basically *everything* now
    without too much grief - and you can read it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Nov 30 06:22:46 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:19:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    [Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.

    There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.

    Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.

    Really? Which ones would you describe that way? Work-arounds for what?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Nov 30 06:23:26 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:16:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Of course to do server-side the server has to have a Py/'webPY'
    interpreter running.

    Just the regular Python interpreter will do fine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Nov 30 06:25:01 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:42:32 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    It was a *clever* series - well-writ with competent actors. Somewhere
    between 'horror' and comedy with a good dose of 'quirk' and some
    'soap opera' thrown in.

    'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'? I made it through a couple of episodes but couldn't stand Gellar. I did like the 'Angel' spinoff -except when Gellar
    did a cameo. I watched stuff on Netflix DVDs so the order wasn't the same
    as when the series were made. I'd seen Boreanaz in 'Bones' and Acker in
    'Person of Interest' and liked them, prior to 'Angel'. I knew Borenaz was
    in it but as soon as I heard her voice I knew it was Root even though I
    didn't know her name.

    Sometimes the order gets strange. In 'Deadwood' Gerald McRaney's character
    was the one you most wanted to see fed to the hogs, but turned up as a
    good guy in 'Jericho'.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Nov 30 06:39:17 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:50:54 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
    I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.

    Those are the ones I like, with one exception. Spinach, broccoli, brussels sprouts, and asparagus are fine. I'm reading a historical series abut a
    band of vikings sailing around and raising hell and the author mentions
    kale several times. I've no idea if that is historically correct but I got
    a bunch of kale to try. You've got to be a cow to appreciate that, or
    maybe a deer. I threw most of it out on the lawn and it was gone in the morning. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the cats or raccoons.

    otoh my brother was relieved when they put him on rat poison and he didn't
    have to eat broccoli anymore. He said it was the only thing where he
    agreed with GHW Bush.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Nov 30 06:53:50 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:16:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Of course to do server-side the server has to have a Py/'webPY'
    interpreter running. They all have PHP, 'legacy', but the server
    lords REALLY don't love having to take the burden so I wonder how
    many would install a Py equiv.

    Well, when you're running the server... Ubuntu seems to come with Apache
    but I think the only thing worse is IIS. http://localhost on Fedora comes
    up with a Fedora webserver page. Apparently it's Apache with some secret
    sauce.

    Back when LAMP was a big thing I stopped at the 'L'. I don't like Apache, MySQL, or PHP.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Nov 30 07:00:58 2024
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:31:33 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:


    Onions + Garlic + Cabbage .... wow, you Really REALLY vont to be
    alone

    For some reason I dug up Steve Earle's 'Me and the Eagle' on youtube
    tonight.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWqKNQEQTw


    "Some mornings will find me up above the timberline
    Lonesome don't seem like much once you're this high
    When it's all said and done I usually find
    Me and the eagle are of the same mind

    Now when I was young I took me a wife
    But she never took to the high country life
    So now I'm alone I don't really mind
    But her name echoes down form the canyon sometimes"

    When I talked to my ex Wednesday she said she'd lined up her favorite restaurant to have a turkey dinner delivered at 12 noon by DoorDash or something. No cabbage or onions and she told them to skip the wine and
    pumpkin pie. (Type I diabetes) My and the eagle don't care for the big
    city life.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 30 09:18:25 2024
    On 30/11/2024 00:12, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:

    Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or
    leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.

    At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex. Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then I'd as soon feed the breast meat to the cat.

    Factory farm reared chicken is pretty tasteless. Round here get a lot of
    game birds so I eat those. Also farmed duck is ok.


    --
    "I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
    puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sat Nov 30 09:24:59 2024
    On 29/11/2024 22:43, Pancho wrote:
    On 11/29/24 13:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:
    The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in
    cholesterol, and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him
    that's never gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some
    medicine instead. End result: happy patient!

    Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too
    much starch.

    I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks
    are happy with the results.

    Statins are fucking dreadful.


    I've taken simvastatin for over 25 years, and BP meds. I don't think I
    have side effects.

    The doctor says I should have a yearly review. In the review, the
    clinician  asks do you have side effects? I say how would I know what
    are side effects and what is unrelated. The review clinician skips on,
    saying side effects normally happen in the first few months. Next review
    I'm going prepared. I'm going to make a long list of every ache and pain
    I have.

    Are you sure Cholesterol is due to starch? Last time I looked it was saturated fats, and possibly starch. To be fair I've never been able to
    work out what affects me. Benecol spread, stanols, seem to help, but I
    have that on bread.

    I think, maybe, stress made it worse.

    As I understood it, the body makes it. You don't get it directly from
    foods. It is something to do with fat transport round the body.

    Google 'metabolic syndrome'. Type II diabetes, obesity, high blood
    pressure and high cholesterol are all part of the same thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_syndrome

    --
    "I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
    puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 30 09:28:10 2024
    On 30/11/2024 06:25, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:42:32 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    It was a *clever* series - well-writ with competent actors. Somewhere
    between 'horror' and comedy with a good dose of 'quirk' and some
    'soap opera' thrown in.

    'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'? I made it through a couple of episodes but couldn't stand Gellar.

    I think that was how it was supposed to be. An insufferable teenager.
    Condemned to grow up.


    I did like the 'Angel' spinoff -except when Gellar
    did a cameo. I watched stuff on Netflix DVDs so the order wasn't the same
    as when the series were made. I'd seen Boreanaz in 'Bones' and Acker in 'Person of Interest' and liked them, prior to 'Angel'. I knew Borenaz was
    in it but as soon as I heard her voice I knew it was Root even though I didn't know her name.

    Sometimes the order gets strange. In 'Deadwood' Gerald McRaney's character was the one you most wanted to see fed to the hogs, but turned up as a
    good guy in 'Jericho'.




    --
    "Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have
    forgotten your aim."

    George Santayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 30 09:29:34 2024
    On 30/11/2024 06:39, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:50:54 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
    I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.

    Those are the ones I like, with one exception. Spinach, broccoli, brussels sprouts, and asparagus are fine. I'm reading a historical series abut a
    band of vikings sailing around and raising hell and the author mentions
    kale several times. I've no idea if that is historically correct but I got
    a bunch of kale to try. You've got to be a cow to appreciate that, or
    maybe a deer. I threw most of it out on the lawn and it was gone in the morning. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the cats or raccoons.

    Kale is one of the most revolting brassicas.

    otoh my brother was relieved when they put him on rat poison and he didn't have to eat broccoli anymore. He said it was the only thing where he
    agreed with GHW Bush.

    --
    "Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have
    forgotten your aim."

    George Santayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 30 09:30:35 2024
    On 30/11/2024 06:53, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:16:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Of course to do server-side the server has to have a Py/'webPY'
    interpreter running. They all have PHP, 'legacy', but the server
    lords REALLY don't love having to take the burden so I wonder how
    many would install a Py equiv.

    Well, when you're running the server... Ubuntu seems to come with Apache but I think the only thing worse is IIS. http://localhost on Fedora comes
    up with a Fedora webserver page. Apparently it's Apache with some secret sauce.

    Back when LAMP was a big thing I stopped at the 'L'. I don't like Apache, MySQL, or PHP.

    I learnt to tolerate them as sufficient for the job I wanted them to do.

    --
    "Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have
    forgotten your aim."

    George Santayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 30 11:52:37 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:51:03 +0100, D wrote:

    We will study Jordan Petersons future health with great interest!

    Mental? Did he mix in statins with the SSRIs, benzos, and ketamine?


    Haha, no, I was thinking more of his carnivore diet. He only eats meat and drinks water.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 30 11:53:02 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:52:16 +0100, D wrote:

    You are a wise man, and also, a skilled cook!

    I was taught well. Both of my parents worked so whoever got home first started supper. One summer day when all the windows were open my mother walked down the driveway and yelled "Jesus Christ, Nels! Not onions
    again!" When in doubt, peel an onion.


    ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 30 12:02:10 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:42:32 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    It was a *clever* series - well-writ with competent actors. Somewhere
    between 'horror' and comedy with a good dose of 'quirk' and some
    'soap opera' thrown in.

    'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'? I made it through a couple of episodes but couldn't stand Gellar. I did like the 'Angel' spinoff -except when Gellar
    did a cameo. I watched stuff on Netflix DVDs so the order wasn't the same
    as when the series were made. I'd seen Boreanaz in 'Bones' and Acker in 'Person of Interest' and liked them, prior to 'Angel'. I knew Borenaz was
    in it but as soon as I heard her voice I knew it was Root even though I didn't know her name.

    Sometimes the order gets strange. In 'Deadwood' Gerald McRaney's character was the one you most wanted to see fed to the hogs, but turned up as a
    good guy in 'Jericho'.


    Never liked Buffy, but Deadwood was good for 2 seasons!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Nov 30 11:57:29 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>>> commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They >>>>>> were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as >>>>>> an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to >>>>> sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy >>>>> it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a >>>>> hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.


       I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
       totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

       "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

       Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though :-)

    Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me vegetables >> sometimes. That makes me cry.


    My granny despised "rabbit food" - stuck to the N.Euro
    boiled meat/potatoes almost entirely. Lived well to 99.

    I am not surprised! I tell stories like this to my doctor if they are
    careless enough to propose anything vegetarian. ;)

    I inherited her taste buds.

    Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
    I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.

    In a pinch I can eat carrots, onions, cabbage, garlic, cucumber, bell
    peppers. Leafy greens? Forget it! Also not a fan of potatoes except in
    potato pancakes. Pickled vegetables are alright also.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Nov 30 12:05:12 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:31:33 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:


    Onions + Garlic + Cabbage .... wow, you Really REALLY vont to be
    alone

    For some reason I dug up Steve Earle's 'Me and the Eagle' on youtube
    tonight.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWqKNQEQTw


    "Some mornings will find me up above the timberline
    Lonesome don't seem like much once you're this high
    When it's all said and done I usually find
    Me and the eagle are of the same mind

    Now when I was young I took me a wife
    But she never took to the high country life
    So now I'm alone I don't really mind
    But her name echoes down form the canyon sometimes"

    When I talked to my ex Wednesday she said she'd lined up her favorite restaurant to have a turkey dinner delivered at 12 noon by DoorDash or something. No cabbage or onions and she told them to skip the wine and pumpkin pie. (Type I diabetes) My and the eagle don't care for the big
    city life.


    Sounds very idyllic! Personally I'm stuck in Babylon, because I cannot
    find a plot that is remote enough, with surroundings I like. =/

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 30 12:06:14 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 00:12, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:

    Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or >>> leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.

    At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean
    protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex.
    Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then I'd as >> soon feed the breast meat to the cat.

    Factory farm reared chicken is pretty tasteless. Round here get a lot of game birds so I eat those. Also farmed duck is ok.

    Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but never
    had the chance to try.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 30 18:44:49 2024
    On 30/11/2024 10:52, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:

    Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or >>> leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.

    At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean
    protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex.
    Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then
    I'd as
    soon feed the breast meat to the cat.


    I feel your pain and I am in the same situation! =( There is nothing in
    terms of meat, that I like less than chicken breast. Dry, rubbery and
    sticks in my throat. Yuck!

    Chicken thighs and chicken wings I can still eat though, as long as they
    come with a good sauce and are crispy on the outside.

    Oh, and chicken breast I can eat if it is shredded to tiny pieces in a chicken soup. Then it works!

    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry
    the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating
    worms and stuff. THEY have taste


    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 30 18:47:00 2024
    On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 00:12, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:

    Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take
    it or
    leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.

    At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean
    protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag
    reflex.
    Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then
    I'd as
    soon feed the breast meat to the cat.

    Factory farm reared chicken is pretty tasteless. Round here get a lot
    of game birds so I eat those. Also farmed duck is ok.

    Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but
    never had the chance to try.

    Illegal here unless you are the king!

    Tried goose? That's expensive and full of grease but nice tasting.

    And if wild and shot (Canada goose) very very good.

    --
    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
    foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

    (Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 30 21:56:30 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 00:12, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:

    Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or >>>>> leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.

    At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean >>>> protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex. >>>> Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then I'd >>>> as
    soon feed the breast meat to the cat.

    Factory farm reared chicken is pretty tasteless. Round here get a lot of >>> game birds so I eat those. Also farmed duck is ok.

    Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but never >> had the chance to try.

    Illegal here unless you are the king!

    WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my
    grand father shot it and it was excellent!

    Tried goose? That's expensive and full of grease but nice tasting.

    No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
    where I live in eastern europe. =(

    And if wild and shot (Canada goose) very very good.

    I often thought about shooting a canada goose myself. There are 1000s of
    them in sweden, and 100s of them pooping in one of my favourite parks. I
    do wonder how full of poisons they are though? If they were clean, trying
    to kill a bird or two at night would be nice for me, and nice for the
    park! ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 30 21:54:31 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 10:52, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:

    Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or >>>> leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.

    At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean
    protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex. >>> Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then I'd as >>> soon feed the breast meat to the cat.


    I feel your pain and I am in the same situation! =( There is nothing in
    terms of meat, that I like less than chicken breast. Dry, rubbery and
    sticks in my throat. Yuck!

    Chicken thighs and chicken wings I can still eat though, as long as they
    come with a good sauce and are crispy on the outside.

    Oh, and chicken breast I can eat if it is shredded to tiny pieces in a
    chicken soup. Then it works!

    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
    wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
    compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
    enjoy chicken breast.

    The pie idea is good though!

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 30 23:14:16 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 09:30:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I learnt to tolerate [Apache, MySQL and PHP] as sufficient for the job I wanted them to do.

    Apache and MySQL are great. Luckily you don’t need to use them with PHP.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 01:09:04 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:54:31 +0100, D wrote:


    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
    wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
    enjoy chicken breast.

    It will probably taste like -- chicken.

    The pie idea is good though!

    A pie would be a lot of work but it did remind me a chicken a la king. I haven't had it in ages but iirc it was edible.

    My goto for tasteless stuff like chicken, tilapia, or rockfish is a
    generous dollop of Mae Ploy's curry paste, red, yellow, or green depending
    on what's in the reefer and a can of coconut milk.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 01:15:28 2024
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:56:30 +0100, D wrote:

    No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
    where I live in eastern europe. =(

    After much pleading I convinced my mother to cook a Christmas goose. Once.
    I loved the crispy skin on duck but the goose was beyond the pale.

    I could talk her into making stuff I'd read about in some book like
    Yorkshire pudding but they were usually one-offs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sun Dec 1 03:39:53 2024
    On 11/30/24 1:22 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:19:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    [Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.

    There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.

    Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.

    Really? Which ones would you describe that way? Work-arounds for what?

    Server-side, PHP is about all that's properly
    supported. The Server-Lords don't like even that,
    uses up too many cycles. They'd LIKE to see all
    the hard work done on YOUR box instead. That's
    what JS does.

    As such, you really won't find any straight-up
    Python based server-side web interpreters. What
    exists are ALL sort of kludges, some evoking
    PHP to get things done.

    And how much longer for even PHP ?

    It's money, it's politics. In the END expect
    Joe User to LOSE now that everything is going
    back to the old client/$erver model.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 1 03:50:05 2024
    On 11/30/24 8:09 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:54:31 +0100, D wrote:


    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
    wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
    compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
    enjoy chicken breast.

    It will probably taste like -- chicken.

    The pie idea is good though!

    A pie would be a lot of work but it did remind me a chicken a la king. I haven't had it in ages but iirc it was edible.

    My goto for tasteless stuff like chicken, tilapia, or rockfish is a
    generous dollop of Mae Ploy's curry paste, red, yellow, or green depending
    on what's in the reefer and a can of coconut milk.

    Oh well, that's Older Age. Try a generous
    sprinkle of Cayenne pepper and maybe a few
    other spices. Makes tasteless less tasteless.

    It is difficult to get the white-meat keto stuff
    to taste like much of anything. I know very much.
    But, the diet DOES become necessary. However
    there is no reason it has to be gastronomic
    atheism, sensory armageddon. It CAN be kinda
    pepped-up for a very low price. Learn yer
    spices. Peppers, look into mustard-seed ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 1 09:03:53 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 03:39:53 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/30/24 1:22 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:19:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    [Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.

    There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.

    Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.

    Really? Which ones would you describe that way? Work-arounds for what?

    Server-side, PHP is about all that's properly supported.

    Which is not answering the question.

    As such, you really won't find any straight-up Python based
    server-side web interpreters.

    The usual Python implementation works just fine.

    What exists are ALL sort of kludges, some evoking PHP to get things
    done.

    Never encountered any such thing. Can you give examples of such “kludges”?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 03:54:29 2024
    On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>> commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
    were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar
    as an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly
    sensitive to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
    enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink
    15-20 cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.


       I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
       totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

       "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

       Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though :-)

    Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me
    vegetables sometimes. That makes me cry.


    GAAACK !!! Rabbit-Food Sux.

    My granny knew it - yet lived well to 99.
    Apparently I inherited her taste buds :-)

    Humans quest for MEAT ... red or white ...
    fowl or mastodon.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 04:11:37 2024
    On 11/30/24 5:57 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>>>> commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode.
    They were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie
    without
    going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past
    sugar as an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly
    sensitive to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
    enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink
    15-20 cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full. >>>>>

       I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
       totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

       "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

       Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though :-)

    Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me
    vegetables sometimes. That makes me cry.


     My granny despised "rabbit food" - stuck to the N.Euro
     boiled meat/potatoes almost entirely. Lived well to 99.

    I am not surprised! I tell stories like this to my doctor if they are careless enough to propose anything vegetarian. ;)

     I inherited her taste buds.

     Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
     I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.

    In a pinch I can eat carrots, onions, cabbage, garlic, cucumber, bell peppers. Leafy greens? Forget it! Also not a fan of potatoes except in
    potato pancakes. Pickled vegetables are alright also.


    I have an odd genetic mutation - can't eat anything
    with vitamin K. That's gonna be for the duration.

    Alas most other kinds of rabbit food are almost
    entirely STARCH - which is also not good.

    Anyway, as I said to another, SPICES can turn a
    mostly white-meat keto diet into something not
    so dismal. The senses can be fooled - see
    savory in what's not very savory.

    Oh ... try KFC ... just chill and peel off all
    the greasy greasy skin/coating. STILL quite good.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 1 04:19:07 2024
    On 11/30/24 1:53 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:16:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Of course to do server-side the server has to have a Py/'webPY'
    interpreter running. They all have PHP, 'legacy', but the server
    lords REALLY don't love having to take the burden so I wonder how
    many would install a Py equiv.

    Well, when you're running the server... Ubuntu seems to come with Apache but I think the only thing worse is IIS. http://localhost on Fedora comes
    up with a Fedora webserver page. Apparently it's Apache with some secret sauce.

    Back when LAMP was a big thing I stopped at the 'L'. I don't like Apache, MySQL, or PHP.

    Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
    well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is
    smaller/faster ... but what do you lose ?

    There IS advantage in "standard" - at least to a point.

    LAMP, well, it Just Works. Not the theoretical best,
    but, again, "standard".

    Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
    any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
    do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
    away even PHP. Just watch .....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 1 11:18:01 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:56:30 +0100, D wrote:

    No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
    where I live in eastern europe. =(

    After much pleading I convinced my mother to cook a Christmas goose. Once.
    I loved the crispy skin on duck but the goose was beyond the pale.

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they cooked
    swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    I could talk her into making stuff I'd read about in some book like
    Yorkshire pudding but they were usually one-offs.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 1 11:15:40 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:54:31 +0100, D wrote:


    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
    wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
    compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
    enjoy chicken breast.

    It will probably taste like -- chicken.

    The pie idea is good though!

    A pie would be a lot of work but it did remind me a chicken a la king. I haven't had it in ages but iirc it was edible.

    This is the truth! But my wife almost always cooks at home, so from time
    to time I reciprocate and surprise her with something. Maybe a chicken
    pie!

    My goto for tasteless stuff like chicken, tilapia, or rockfish is a
    generous dollop of Mae Ploy's curry paste, red, yellow, or green depending
    on what's in the reefer and a can of coconut milk.

    This is good advice! You should stop by rec.food.cooking sometimes. Plenty
    of political discussions and occasionally food discussions too! ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 1 11:19:12 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>>> commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They >>>>>> were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as >>>>>> an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to >>>>> sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy >>>>> it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a >>>>> hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.


       I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
       totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

       "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

       Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though :-)

    Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me vegetables >> sometimes. That makes me cry.


    GAAACK !!! Rabbit-Food Sux.

    My granny knew it - yet lived well to 99.
    Apparently I inherited her taste buds :-)

    Humans quest for MEAT ... red or white ...
    fowl or mastodon.


    This is the truth! Your granny has become yet another argument I throw at
    my wife when she tries! ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 10:36:18 2024
    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry
    the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard
    eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
    wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
    enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be
    more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes
    like chicken'.


    Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same money
    you could find a better bird to eat.

    The pie idea is good though!

    Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
    Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.

    Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.

    However some foods are so shit that nothing works.

    --
    "Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have
    forgotten your aim."

    George Santayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 1 11:21:34 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/30/24 5:57 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>>>>> commode
       at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........

    It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They >>>>>>>> were a
    southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as >>>>>>>> an
    essential food group.


    This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive >>>>>>> to sugar as you grew older?

    When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad >>>>>>> enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 >>>>>>> cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.

    Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full. >>>>>>

       I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
       totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......

       "Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.

       Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...

    Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
    Not much else though :-)

    Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me
    vegetables sometimes. That makes me cry.


     My granny despised "rabbit food" - stuck to the N.Euro
     boiled meat/potatoes almost entirely. Lived well to 99.

    I am not surprised! I tell stories like this to my doctor if they are
    careless enough to propose anything vegetarian. ;)

     I inherited her taste buds.

     Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
     I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.

    In a pinch I can eat carrots, onions, cabbage, garlic, cucumber, bell
    peppers. Leafy greens? Forget it! Also not a fan of potatoes except in
    potato pancakes. Pickled vegetables are alright also.


    I have an odd genetic mutation - can't eat anything
    with vitamin K. That's gonna be for the duration.

    Alas most other kinds of rabbit food are almost
    entirely STARCH - which is also not good.

    Anyway, as I said to another, SPICES can turn a
    mostly white-meat keto diet into something not
    so dismal. The senses can be fooled - see
    savory in what's not very savory.

    Oh ... try KFC ... just chill and peel off all
    the greasy greasy skin/coating. STILL quite good.


    That was literally my first though when I saw the letter combination
    KFC... yuck, the coating! But never thought about actually just removing
    it, but it does seem like a waste to buy 0.5kg och chicken and removem
    0.25 kg of coating. ;)

    On the other hand, Mc D is always the saviour! My standard combo is one
    double cheese burger and one regular hamburger. Nutritious, tasty and everything that the body needs!

    Sadly I am not allowed, by the wife (you start to see the pattern here) to
    have Mc D more than every 3-4 weeks or so. ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 10:42:05 2024
    On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:

    Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but
    never had the chance to try.

    Illegal here unless you are the king!

    WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my
    grand father shot it and it was excellent!

    United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is
    allowed to eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.

    Tried goose? That's expensive and full of grease but nice tasting.

    No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
    where I live in eastern europe. =(

    Really?

    And if wild and shot (Canada goose) very very good.

    I often thought about shooting a canada goose myself. There are 1000s of
    them in sweden, and 100s of them pooping in one of my favourite parks. I
    do wonder how full of poisons they are though? If they were clean,
    trying to kill a bird or two at night would be nice for me, and nice for
    the park! ;)

    Canada geese just fine. Where I live there is an old moat round a 1000
    year old Hall. Its a kind of trick stop for migrating geese on their
    way to/from Scandinavia

    Late friend decided to stand on the approach - geese turn into wind to
    land there - and got *three* geese with two barrels.

    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.

    The other delicacy is seafaring ducks. The ones that feed by the sea.
    Never expect anything off a duck that lived in a pond, They always taste
    of mud.

    But the ones that live in estuaries are first rate.


    --
    "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

    Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 1 10:46:30 2024
    On 01/12/2024 01:09, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:54:31 +0100, D wrote:


    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
    wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
    compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
    enjoy chicken breast.

    It will probably taste like -- chicken.

    The pie idea is good though!

    A pie would be a lot of work but it did remind me a chicken a la king. I haven't had it in ages but iirc it was edible.

    My goto for tasteless stuff like chicken, tilapia, or rockfish is a
    generous dollop of Mae Ploy's curry paste, red, yellow, or green depending
    on what's in the reefer and a can of coconut milk.

    +1 except I mix my own curry spices.

    Hot aromatic gingery and coconut is a classic taste


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 1 10:44:38 2024
    On 01/12/2024 01:15, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:56:30 +0100, D wrote:

    No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
    where I live in eastern europe. =(

    After much pleading I convinced my mother to cook a Christmas goose. Once.
    I loved the crispy skin on duck but the goose was beyond the pale.

    Farmed goose is about 50% fat, and by the time you have rendered that
    out all that is left is skin bone and a bit of very tasty meat.

    Wild goose is much better. Migrating carrying a tub of lard around is
    not conducive to survival. Same goes for wild duck.

    I could talk her into making stuff I'd read about in some book like
    Yorkshire pudding but they were usually one-offs.

    --
    “when things get difficult you just have to lie”

    ― Jean Claud Jüncker

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 1 10:54:22 2024
    On 01/12/2024 08:50, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/30/24 8:09 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:54:31 +0100, D wrote:


    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The >>> wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
    compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
    enjoy chicken breast.

    It will probably taste like -- chicken.

    The pie idea is good though!

    A pie would be a lot of work but it did remind me a chicken a la king. I
    haven't had it in ages but iirc it was edible.

    My goto for tasteless stuff like chicken, tilapia, or rockfish is a
    generous dollop of Mae Ploy's curry paste, red, yellow, or green
    depending
    on what's in the reefer and a can of coconut milk.

      Oh well, that's Older Age. Try a generous
      sprinkle of Cayenne pepper and maybe a few
      other spices. Makes tasteless less tasteless.

    Nicked of a delicious tin of curry powder.
    In the coffee grinder :
    ============-=
    Coriander
    Cumin
    Fennel
    Clove
    Turmeric
    Kashmiri Chilli
    Fenugreek
    Star anise
    Asafoetida
    Cinnamon

    In the pan
    ======
    Garlic
    Ginger
    Salt
    Coconut cream
    Curry leaves.

    I use Mexican chillies for more heat

    All this stuff is easily available in the UK with its massive Asian
    population. Probably not on the average US or E European supermarket
    shelves, but probably available by mail order in bulk.

    Spices keep forever. I am still using up an accidental pot of nutmegs, a
    pot of cloves and start anise from at least 25 years ago.



      It is difficult to get the white-meat keto stuff
      to taste like much of anything. I know very much.
      But, the diet DOES become necessary. However
      there is no reason it has to be gastronomic
      atheism, sensory armageddon. It CAN be kinda
      pepped-up for a very low price. Learn yer
      spices. Peppers, look into mustard-seed ...

    Yes.
    It's the only way you can actually discover what your body will tolerate
    and what it will not. Cook for yourself, what you find you like - and
    what likes you!


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 1 11:08:46 2024
    On 01/12/2024 08:39, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/30/24 1:22 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:19:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    [Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.

    There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.

    Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.

    Really? Which ones would you describe that way? Work-arounds for what?

      Server-side, PHP is about all that's properly
      supported. The Server-Lords don't like even that,
      uses up too many cycles. They'd LIKE to see all
      the hard work done on YOUR box instead. That's
      what JS does.

    Well thats php.

    Of course you can write CGI in any language if you like, it just gets
    harder and more involved.

      As such, you really won't find any straight-up
      Python based server-side web interpreters. What
      exists are ALL sort of kludges, some evoking
      PHP to get things done.

    AFAIK Apache can be configured to use any language for 'active pages' .
    PHP is however the default.

    I have PHP executing C programs when PHP alone isnt good enough, as well.


      And how much longer for even PHP ?

      It's money, it's politics. In the END expect
      Joe User to LOSE now that everything is going
      back to the old client/$erver model.


    That isn't primarily a financial decision, its also technology driven.

    With extra bandwidth between, the distinction between client and server
    is very blurred - offload computation to the JavaScript client, or
    perform it in a supported and single copied way on the server.

    Its just another design choice. I use web based apps locally to control
    things like media servers and my central heating, because I am familiar
    with it. There is PHP and there is a lot of JavaScript and AJAX to make everything work smoothly. And some C code behind the scenes on the
    server. Example: PHP running as non-root cannot read root-only data,
    but root permissioned C can...and pass the answer back to PHP

    AJAX style bollocks is very much sharing between the server and client.
    I can poll for new data on the server without reloading the web page.

    Obviously I could write a client that has server features and push the
    data, but to do that so it works on a PC/Laptop or mobile phone is too
    much work. They all have web browsers so that's the vehicle.

    I don't care about anything other than it looks OK and functions as I
    want it to. So I use whatever seems the least work to achieve that.

    I am not in love with computer languages and I never studied compsci. I
    am an engineer who delights in making stuff *work*, and whether that
    involves a 3D printer, milling machine or a hammer and chisel is all one
    to me.


    --
    "What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
    "I don't."
    "Don't what?"
    "Think about Gay Marriage."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 1 11:21:10 2024
    On 01/12/2024 09:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

      Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
      any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
      do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
      away even PHP. Just watch .....

    I am my own server lord.

    That solves everything


    Except access to commercial websites, which is a minefield of push style marketing.

    I actually got sent *in the post* the most extraordinary phishing
    attempt. At least I assume it was that.

    Someone had my full real name - *never* used except on sites allegedly
    'secure' - postal address, and had found the only photograph of me on
    the net - a photo at age 11, thoughtlessly posted by my cousin - and
    included that with a hand written letter - or one printed to look like
    hand written - from a sender who allegedly was a girl in Kazakhstan,
    with a .ru email address.

    All with loads of Kazak stamps on. Must have cost a fortune. I should
    post the email address on line and flood his/her/its mail box.

    I can't understand why I would be worth all that trouble...

    ..or the entity purporting to be Larry Ellison on a random board who
    said my ideas were 'interesting' and wanted me to contact him...

    Sure Larry. I came floating down the Danube yesterday on a water biscuit...

    Who do these people think they are? Who do these people think I am?

    It's the Internet dude. More Trolls, scamsters, Robots and AI than real people.

    Get used to it.
    --
    You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
    kind word alone.

    Al Capone

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 1 16:27:42 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 01/12/2024 09:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

      Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
      any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
      do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
      away even PHP. Just watch .....

    I am my own server lord.

    That solves everything
    ...
    ..or the entity purporting to be Larry Ellison on a random board who
    said my ideas were 'interesting' and wanted me to contact him...

    Sure Larry. I came floating down the Danube yesterday on a water biscuit...

    Who do these people think they are? Who do these people think I am?

    Who do they think they are? Con-men (although /they/ might not think
    so).

    Who do they think you are? A potential mark. The con-man game is all
    about the law of averages. Try enough marks, and some will take the
    bait and you'll (the con-man) get a payoff. To secure enough payoffs
    they have to try a lot of potential marks to find the few that bite.

    But they don't 'know' you, anymore than they know the other 1,000
    potential marks they tested yesterday.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 1 18:32:59 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry the >>> bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating >>> worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
    wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
    compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
    enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
    protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could
    be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very
    good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with snake protein.


    Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same money you could find a better bird to eat.

    Duck should be possible to obtain here. I like duck!

    The pie idea is good though!

    Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
    Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.

    Amen!

    Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.

    However some foods are so shit that nothing works.

    There is another method where you make the shit taste shittier, and
    thereby the shit cancels out resulting in a less shittier final result!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 1 18:38:37 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:

    Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but
    never had the chance to try.

    Illegal here unless you are the king!

    WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my
    grand father shot it and it was excellent!

    United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is allowed to eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.

    Surely no one follows this law? I mean, I am certain there's old cruft and cobwebs in the swedish law book, but no one seriously follows it.

    Tried goose? That's expensive and full of grease but nice tasting.

    No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
    where I live in eastern europe. =(

    Really?

    Haven't seen it in the store so far, nor have I heard of anyone eating it.

    And if wild and shot (Canada goose) very very good.

    I often thought about shooting a canada goose myself. There are 1000s of
    them in sweden, and 100s of them pooping in one of my favourite parks. I do >> wonder how full of poisons they are though? If they were clean, trying to
    kill a bird or two at night would be nice for me, and nice for the park! ;)

    Canada geese just fine. Where I live there is an old moat round a 1000 year old Hall. Its a kind of trick stop for migrating geese on their way to/from Scandinavia

    Late friend decided to stand on the approach - geese turn into wind to land there - and got *three* geese with two barrels.

    Blessings to your friend for reducing the amount of poopers that reach
    sweden! This is very interesting! I have to talk to an acquaintance who is
    a hunter to shoot one. If I find one in the country side, since they are
    not shy at all, it should be completely feasible for me to shoot one with
    my longbow. A bird the size of a canada goose is super easy to hit at 10
    yards.

    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.

    An ancient trick I learned is that you put them close to an industrial
    strength electro magnet and rip out the bullets. Alternatively you can but
    them in an MRI machine. I know in medieval sweden, this is what they used
    to do!

    The other delicacy is seafaring ducks. The ones that feed by the sea. Never expect anything off a duck that lived in a pond, They always taste of mud.

    But the ones that live in estuaries are first rate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 1 18:41:40 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 09:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

      Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
      any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
      do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
      away even PHP. Just watch .....

    I am my own server lord.

    That solves everything


    Except access to commercial websites, which is a minefield of push style marketing.

    I actually got sent *in the post* the most extraordinary phishing attempt. At least I assume it was that.

    Someone had my full real name - *never* used except on sites allegedly 'secure' - postal address, and had found the only photograph of me on the net - a photo at age 11, thoughtlessly posted by my cousin - and included that with a hand written letter - or one printed to look like hand written - from a sender who allegedly was a girl in Kazakhstan, with a .ru email address.

    All with loads of Kazak stamps on. Must have cost a fortune. I should post the email address on line and flood his/her/its mail box.

    I can't understand why I would be worth all that trouble...

    Maybe you are very rich and powerful? Maybe _you_ are Larry Ellison? We
    just don't know. ;)

    ..or the entity purporting to be Larry Ellison on a random board who said my ideas were 'interesting' and wanted me to contact him...

    Sure Larry. I came floating down the Danube yesterday on a water biscuit...

    Who do these people think they are? Who do these people think I am?

    It's the Internet dude. More Trolls, scamsters, Robots and AI than real people.

    Get used to it.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 18:54:56 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:21:34 +0100, D wrote:

    That was literally my first though when I saw the letter combination
    KFC... yuck, the coating! But never thought about actually just removing
    it, but it does seem like a waste to buy 0.5kg och chicken and removem
    0.25 kg of coating.

    But that's the good part! When we were dating my wife and I usually wound
    up a KFC sharing a bucket. On one road trip we found the worst KFC outlet
    -- in Kentucky. Also, eating KFC while driving isn't recommended. Greasing
    the steering wheel isn't recommended.

    I haven't had it or other deep fried chicken variants in decades. Tastes change.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 19:13:35 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
    could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at
    very good prices!

    https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu

    I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
    years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers
    to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch
    on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
    chicken or quite like beef.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sun Dec 1 18:49:57 2024
    On 2024-12-01, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could
    be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very
    good prices!

    Maybe you could extract snake oil and sell that too.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 18:47:35 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
    cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds involving smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the
    meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat
    spoil the playing field.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 1 19:02:48 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:36:18 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
    Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.

    Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.

    However some foods are so shit that nothing works.

    US cuisine, particularly that derived from Mexico, is the result of trying
    to make meat well past its sell-by date edible.

    During my trucking days I delivered a load of dry beans to a well known
    canned chili maker. The truck at the dock next to me was a reefer full of chicken. As we were being unloaded I talked to the trucker. His sad story
    was his refrigeration unit had broken down and the load had defrosted to
    the point where the original consignee refused it. The trucking company
    had found a way to get rid of the load so it wasn't a complete loss.

    I'm not a fan of canned chili and I definitely avoided that brand.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 1 19:29:29 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:46:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    +1 except I mix my own curry spices.

    https://hot-thai-kitchen.com/curry-paste-review/

    Thai curry is a little different to Indian curry. There isn't a large
    Asian population in this area so items like the shrimp paste would be hard
    to source.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 1 20:46:41 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:08:46 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Of course you can write CGI in any language if you like ...

    CGI has terrible performance, and is not recommended for production use.
    There is still FastCGI, but that also seems to be obsolescent -- certainly
    it was never updated to handle WebSocket connections.

    AFAIK Apache can be configured to use any language for 'active pages' .
    PHP is however the default.

    There is no “PHP default” in Apache. Apache comes with a standard set of loadable modules for various purposes, and there are third-party ones for
    PHP and Python (mod_php, mod_python) and no doubt other languages, none of which are part of Apache itself. But running as a module within Apache has limitations: this is another reason† why it’s hard for PHP to support WebSockets.

    A better way to run code in a language of your choice is to have your app implement its own mini web server, and have Apache or Nginx provide access
    to that via a server-side proxy (commonly misnamed a “reverse proxy”).
    This way, your code has total control over its own process(es) and
    privileges and network access and everything. This also allows for
    WebSocket connections.

    †besides bad language design

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 1 20:40:33 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/

    You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 1 20:57:16 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:38:37 +0100, D wrote:

    An ancient trick I learned is that you put them close to an industrial strength electro magnet and rip out the bullets. Alternatively you can
    but them in an MRI machine. I know in medieval sweden, this is what they
    used to do!

    Lead pellets? Since 1988 the US has required non-toxic shot for waterfowl.
    The cheapest is steel, which would possibly work. The problem is steel
    doesn't perform too well. The other popular choices are bismuth, which is diamagnetic, and tungsten, which is parmagnetic.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 1 20:47:51 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on any server-side
    'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to do all the hard work. In time they're
    gonna take away even PHP. Just watch .....

    I see it going the other way: the only way online services can control
    your experience to their liking is if your machine becomes just a dumb
    terminal with minimal autonomous functionality.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 1 22:11:22 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
    cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds involving smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the
    meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat
    spoil the playing field.


    Ahh, ok, yes that makes sense.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sun Dec 1 22:11:48 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-01, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
    protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could
    be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very
    good prices!

    Maybe you could extract snake oil and sell that too.


    Touch! And let's not forget selling the snake eyes to Las Vegas!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 1 22:14:21 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
    protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
    could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at
    very good prices!

    https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu

    I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
    years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers
    to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch
    on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
    chicken or quite like beef.


    Never heard of! I thought the go to for better yield would be ostrich.

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  • From Computer Nerd Kev@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 2 07:13:01 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 01/12/2024 08:39, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/30/24 1:22 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:19:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    [Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.

    There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that. >>>>
    Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.

    Really? Which ones would you describe that way? Work-arounds for what?

    Server-side, PHP is about all that's properly
    supported. The Server-Lords don't like even that,
    uses up too many cycles. They'd LIKE to see all
    the hard work done on YOUR box instead. That's
    what JS does.

    Well thats php.

    Of course you can write CGI in any language if you like, it just gets
    harder and more involved.

    As such, you really won't find any straight-up
    Python based server-side web interpreters. What
    exists are ALL sort of kludges, some evoking
    PHP to get things done.

    AFAIK Apache can be configured to use any language for 'active pages' .
    PHP is however the default.

    Yes I've done simple CGI scripts in Bash even. Apache and PHP have
    an extra link in the form of mod_php. That runs PHP scripts from
    Apache without starting a separate process for the interpreter.
    Apparantly there was a mod_Python but development was abandoned.

    PHP also has OPcache for caching compiled copies of scripts for
    performance. I'm not sure if that can be done so transparently with
    Python (since I dislike Python anyway, I'm not that interested).

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 1 21:27:20 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
    well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is smaller/faster
    ... but what do you lose ?

    https://dev.to/emiliosp/nodejs-vs-apache-performance-battle-for-the- conquest-of-my-5c4n

    I haven't noticed that I lost anything using node.js. nginx is also taking market share from Apache.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 1 22:15:27 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:38:37 +0100, D wrote:

    An ancient trick I learned is that you put them close to an industrial
    strength electro magnet and rip out the bullets. Alternatively you can
    but them in an MRI machine. I know in medieval sweden, this is what they
    used to do!

    Lead pellets? Since 1988 the US has required non-toxic shot for waterfowl. The cheapest is steel, which would possibly work. The problem is steel doesn't perform too well. The other popular choices are bismuth, which is diamagnetic, and tungsten, which is parmagnetic.


    Had no idea! The usenet is fantastic... all these little wonderful nuggets
    of information I would never run into on the regular old internet, without actively looking for it.

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  • From Computer Nerd Kev@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Mon Dec 2 07:23:59 2024
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
    Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but >>>>> never had the chance to try.

    Illegal here unless you are the king!

    WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my
    grand father shot it and it was excellent!

    United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is allowed to >> eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.

    Surely no one follows this law? I mean, I am certain there's old cruft and cobwebs in the swedish law book, but no one seriously follows it.

    I imagine that swan-lovers take advantage of it. But a documentary
    I watced that visited a swan farm in the UK pointed out that the
    law only applies to wild swans, those raised on a farm can be and
    are sold and eaten by any old peasant.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Computer Nerd Kev on Sun Dec 1 23:26:37 2024
    On 2 Dec 2024 07:13:01 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

    PHP also has OPcache for caching compiled copies of scripts for
    performance. I'm not sure if that can be done so transparently with
    Python ...

    Not sure why it would be necessary for Python, since we are not using PHP- style invocation methods.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Computer Nerd Kev on Mon Dec 2 01:06:20 2024
    On 2 Dec 2024 07:13:01 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

    Yes I've done simple CGI scripts in Bash even. Apache and PHP have an
    extra link in the form of mod_php. That runs PHP scripts from Apache
    without starting a separate process for the interpreter. Apparantly
    there was a mod_Python but development was abandoned.

    mod_wsgi replaced mod_python. It works with with the frameworks like
    djamgo and flask.

    https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/5.0/howto/deployment/wsgi/modwsgi/

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 2 01:50:01 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:14:21 +0100, D wrote:

    Never heard of! I thought the go to for better yield would be ostrich.

    There was interest in ostrich farming at the same time as emus.

    https://www.americanostrichfarms.com/

    I think the choice had to do with how much land was available. I think
    emus are a little more docile too. Like llamas the industry was
    incestuous. The real money is in breeding pairs.

    https://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/commercial-ostrich-production

    If you can get $12k for a pair of breeders you aren't going to sell them
    for ostrich burgers.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 2 02:17:24 2024
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:15:27 +0100, D wrote:

    Had no idea! The usenet is fantastic... all these little wonderful
    nuggets of information I would never run into on the regular old
    internet, without actively looking for it.

    Waterfowl were the first concern for banning lead ammunition. The problem
    is waterfowl tend to congregate causing hunters to congregate with the
    result of a lot of lead shot in the pond. The birds scoop up the shot and
    it winds up in their gizzards like normal grit.

    So far there is no regulation on upland game birds. Doves probably are the
    most at risk because of the way they tend to congregate.

    There is also interest in lead free ammunition for handguns and rifles, particularly for indoor ranges. A club I'm in got a questionnaire asking
    about what they were doing to mitigate lead exposure to the employees.
    That caused some head scratching since there are no employees and all the ranges are outdoor.

    Copper is a popular alternative for handgun ammunition. There are some technical problems. The different ballistics have to be compensated for, semiautomatics may not function as well, and, if you're not just punching cardboard, the terminal ballistics differ. The ammunition is also more expensive. Lead won't be going away anytime soon. Just wash your hands
    after using.

    https://esca-tech.com/product/d-lead-hand-soap/

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 2 00:37:08 2024
    On 12/1/24 6:21 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 01/12/2024 09:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
       any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
       do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
       away even PHP. Just watch .....

    I am my own server lord.

    You host Google and Amazon and Hair Club For Men ? Wow !


    That solves everything


    Except access to commercial websites, which is a minefield of push style marketing.

    I actually got sent *in the post* the most extraordinary phishing
    attempt. At least I assume it was that.

    Someone had my full real name - *never* used except on sites allegedly 'secure' - postal address, and had found the only photograph of me on
    the net - a photo at age 11, thoughtlessly posted by my cousin - and
    included that with a hand written letter - or one printed to look like
    hand written -  from a sender who allegedly was a girl in Kazakhstan,
    with a .ru email address.

    All with loads of Kazak stamps on. Must have cost a fortune. I should
    post the email address on line and flood his/her/its mail box.

    I can't understand why I would be worth all that trouble...

    ..or the entity purporting to be Larry Ellison on a random board who
    said my ideas were 'interesting' and wanted me to contact him...

    Sure Larry. I came floating down the Danube yesterday on a water biscuit...

    Who do these people think they are? Who do these people think I am?

    It's the Internet dude. More Trolls, scamsters,  Robots and AI than real people.

    Get used to it.

    Scams PAY - otherwise they'd have gone away a long
    time ago. Play 100,000 people and if only a few
    buy you a bushel of bitcoin you're solidly in
    the black.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 2 10:26:45 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:14:21 +0100, D wrote:

    Never heard of! I thought the go to for better yield would be ostrich.

    There was interest in ostrich farming at the same time as emus.

    https://www.americanostrichfarms.com/

    I think the choice had to do with how much land was available. I think
    emus are a little more docile too. Like llamas the industry was
    incestuous. The real money is in breeding pairs.

    https://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/commercial-ostrich-production

    If you can get $12k for a pair of breeders you aren't going to sell them
    for ostrich burgers.

    That makes sense!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Computer Nerd Kev on Mon Dec 2 10:25:58 2024
    On Sun, 2 Dec 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
    Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but >>>>>> never had the chance to try.

    Illegal here unless you are the king!

    WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my >>>> grand father shot it and it was excellent!

    United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is allowed to
    eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.

    Surely no one follows this law? I mean, I am certain there's old cruft and >> cobwebs in the swedish law book, but no one seriously follows it.

    I imagine that swan-lovers take advantage of it. But a documentary
    I watced that visited a swan farm in the UK pointed out that the
    law only applies to wild swans, those raised on a farm can be and
    are sold and eaten by any old peasant.


    Excellent!

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 2 10:27:57 2024
    On 01/12/2024 19:13, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
    protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
    could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at
    very good prices!

    https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu

    I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
    years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers
    to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch
    on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
    chicken or quite like beef.

    Same as ostrich. It's just not very interesting as meat

    There is a huge range of meat (and fungi) that are edible, but so dull
    or faintly obnoxious that no one does.

    Wild hare (jack rabbit) tastes and smells like jockstraps after a hard
    match. By the time you have got rid of that flavour all the other
    flavour has gone too.

    Same goes for the muddy taste in pond reared carp.

    Rabbit is plain dull. But in a stew with bacon and vegetables and
    plenty of herbs, its not bad



    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 2 11:07:42 2024
    On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
    cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds involving smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the
    meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.

    This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.

    Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its muscle
    that gets *used*

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat
    spoil the playing field.

    All domesticated species lose flavour.

    I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I asked
    what it was 'wild baby pig'.
    We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you
    use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'

    We pay a price for cheap meat.

    These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has never
    been better.

    Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.


    --
    The higher up the mountainside
    The greener grows the grass.
    The higher up the monkey climbs
    The more he shows his arse.

    Traditional

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 2 11:01:44 2024
    On 01/12/2024 17:38, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:

    Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans,
    but never had the chance to try.

    Illegal here unless you are the king!

    WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland,
    my grand father shot it and it was excellent!

    United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is
    allowed to eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.

    Surely no one follows this law? I mean, I am certain there's old cruft
    and cobwebs in the swedish law book, but no one seriously follows it.


    It is a protected species for all but the king and a few subjects

    In practice even they dont eat it anymore. The king is very Green and
    wet behind the ears

    Tried goose? That's expensive and full of grease but nice tasting.

    No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular
    here where I live in eastern europe. =(

    Really?

    Haven't seen it in the store so far, nor have I heard of anyone eating it.

    Good heavens. Its very nice.


    And if wild and shot (Canada goose) very very good.

    I often thought about shooting a canada goose myself. There are 1000s
    of them in sweden, and 100s of them pooping in one of my favourite
    parks. I do wonder how full of poisons they are though? If they were
    clean, trying to kill a bird or two at night would be nice for me,
    and nice for the park! ;)

    Canada geese just fine. Where I live there is an old moat round a 1000
    year old Hall.  Its a kind of trick stop for migrating geese on their
    way to/from Scandinavia

    Late friend decided to stand on the approach - geese turn into wind to
    land there - and got *three* geese with two barrels.

    Blessings to your friend for reducing the amount of poopers that reach sweden! This is very interesting! I have to talk to an acquaintance who
    is a hunter to shoot one. If I find one in the country side, since they
    are not shy at all, it should be completely feasible for me to shoot one
    with my longbow. A bird the size of a canada goose is super easy to hit
    at 10 yards.

    Longbow? yes. Through the wings would pin them.




    --
    “A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
    who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
    “We did this ourselves.”

    ― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 2 11:14:00 2024
    On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/

    You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.

    I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a clue.

    In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on her head

    I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky. It
    wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.

    One tends to avoid eating such.

    Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
    apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it

    --
    You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
    kind word alone.

    Al Capone

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 2 10:20:47 2024
    On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or
    curry the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard
    eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon.
    The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how
    it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get
    me to enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be
    more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes
    like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
    could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at
    very good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with
    snake protein.

    In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'

    Edible if you wanted.



    Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same
    money you could find a better bird to eat.

    Duck should be possible to obtain here. I like duck!

    The pie idea is good though!

    Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
    Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.

    Amen!

    Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.

    However some foods are so shit that nothing works.

    There is another method where you make the shit taste shittier, and
    thereby the shit cancels out resulting in a less shittier final result!


    --
    “A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
    who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
    “We did this ourselves.”

    ― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 2 11:09:51 2024
    On 01/12/2024 19:29, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:46:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    +1 except I mix my own curry spices.

    https://hot-thai-kitchen.com/curry-paste-review/

    Thai curry is a little different to Indian curry. There isn't a large
    Asian population in this area so items like the shrimp paste would be hard
    to source.

    Oh we can get Thai as well, in the UK
    Lemon grass and Kaffir lime leaves make it special

    These are hard to get fresh, but dried is ok-ish

    --
    You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
    kind word alone.

    Al Capone

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 2 11:16:33 2024
    On 01/12/2024 20:57, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:38:37 +0100, D wrote:

    An ancient trick I learned is that you put them close to an industrial
    strength electro magnet and rip out the bullets. Alternatively you can
    but them in an MRI machine. I know in medieval sweden, this is what they
    used to do!

    Lead pellets? Since 1988 the US has required non-toxic shot for waterfowl. The cheapest is steel, which would possibly work. The problem is steel doesn't perform too well. The other popular choices are bismuth, which is diamagnetic, and tungsten, which is parmagnetic.


    I believe you are right. Lead isn't totally banned, but for waterfowl I
    think it is.



    --
    "An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
    only in others...”

    Tom Wolfe

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Computer Nerd Kev on Mon Dec 2 11:17:38 2024
    On 01/12/2024 21:23, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
    Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but >>>>>> never had the chance to try.

    Illegal here unless you are the king!

    WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my >>>> grand father shot it and it was excellent!

    United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is allowed to
    eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.

    Surely no one follows this law? I mean, I am certain there's old cruft and >> cobwebs in the swedish law book, but no one seriously follows it.

    I imagine that swan-lovers take advantage of it. But a documentary
    I watced that visited a swan farm in the UK pointed out that the
    law only applies to wild swans, those raised on a farm can be and
    are sold and eaten by any old peasant.

    Really? I never heard of any swan farms or ever saw it for sale...

    --
    You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
    kind word alone.

    Al Capone

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 2 15:03:22 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 19:13, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
    protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
    could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at >>> very good prices!

    https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu

    I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
    years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers
    to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch
    on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
    chicken or quite like beef.

    Same as ostrich. It's just not very interesting as meat

    There is a huge range of meat (and fungi) that are edible, but so dull or faintly obnoxious that no one does.

    Wild hare (jack rabbit) tastes and smells like jockstraps after a hard match. By the time you have got rid of that flavour all the other flavour has gone too.

    Same goes for the muddy taste in pond reared carp.

    Rabbit is plain dull. But in a stew with bacon and vegetables and plenty of herbs, its not bad

    I bought some rabbit sausage the other week, and it tasted like
    tasteless chicken sausage. Perhaps a little less smooth texture. It wasn't
    bad, but definitely not something to write home about either.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 2 15:04:48 2024

    Blessings to your friend for reducing the amount of poopers that reach
    sweden! This is very interesting! I have to talk to an acquaintance who is >> a hunter to shoot one. If I find one in the country side, since they are
    not shy at all, it should be completely feasible for me to shoot one with
    my longbow. A bird the size of a canada goose is super easy to hit at 10
    yards.

    Longbow? yes. Through the wings would pin them.

    It's a 40 lbs bow, so as long as I hit either the wings, or the main body I don't think they'll get very far. Since they seem to enjoy pooping, I will build
    a small porcelain throne to lure them in. Once they sit there, they are easy prey!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 2 15:06:05 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
    cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds involving >> smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the
    meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.

    This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.

    Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its muscle that gets *used*

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat
    spoil the playing field.

    All domesticated species lose flavour.

    I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
    We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'

    We pay a price for cheap meat.

    These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has never been better.

    Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.

    Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They roam
    and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 2 15:02:15 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry >>>>> the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating >>>>> worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The >>>> wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
    compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to >>>> enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be
    more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes
    like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
    protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could
    be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very
    good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with snake >> protein.

    In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'

    Edible if you wanted.

    Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
    which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just
    for the taking!



    Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same money >>> you could find a better bird to eat.

    Duck should be possible to obtain here. I like duck!

    The pie idea is good though!

    Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
    Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.

    Amen!

    Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.

    However some foods are so shit that nothing works.

    There is another method where you make the shit taste shittier, and thereby >> the shit cancels out resulting in a less shittier final result!




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 2 14:26:16 2024
    On 02/12/2024 14:03, D wrote:
    I bought some rabbit sausage the other week, and it tasted like
    tasteless chicken sausage. Perhaps a little less smooth texture. It
    wasn't bad, but definitely not something to write home about either.

    I think that is actually the perfect summary.

    I've had it served as a stew with plenty of herbs and either smoked
    bacon or sausage, and its OK.

    Curried a wild one, once. OK.

    But I wouldn't go rushing out to buy it.
    --
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
    returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

    Mark Twain

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 2 14:28:12 2024
    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills-
    hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/

    You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.

    I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a clue.

    In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on her
    head

    I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky.
    It wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.

    One tends to avoid eating such.

    Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
    apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    Not bunnies
    Eaten pheasant and deer

    Both V good

    --
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
    returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 2 14:27:15 2024
    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
    cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds
    involving
    smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the
    meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.

    This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.

    Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its
    muscle that gets *used*

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat
    spoil the playing field.

    All domesticated species lose flavour.

    I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I
    asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
    We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you
    use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'

    We pay a price for cheap meat.

    These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has
    never been better.

    Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.

    Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They roam
    and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world!

    Well the Welsh would argue with you there.

    But I would expect Icelandic to be good

    --
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
    returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 2 18:49:29 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:06:56 +0100, D wrote:


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    There is a diner in Utah that caters to truckers. A sign behind the
    counter says 'You kill it, we grill it'

    Harvesting roadkill in this state is legal with one provision. You can't
    field dress the animal by the side of the road and have to take the whole
    thing and dress it at home.

    The closest I've come is skinning a mink I hit. That process is enough to convince you mink isn't edible.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to John Ames on Mon Dec 2 18:55:13 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:02:09 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    On 26 Nov 2024 19:31:56 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    Early C++ was pretty awful. I understand iterators and other arcane
    bits have been cleaned up a lot but I have no need to use general C++.
    Arduino, Pico, and other microcontrollers use C/C++ but it's a limited
    subset of C++.

    Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with
    C++.

    They were a real improvement. Commenting out a block that already had a
    comment was painful. U think it was C99 that also allowed declaring a
    variable close to where you were using it rather than a laundry list at
    the head of a function.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 2 21:36:49 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:03, D wrote:
    I bought some rabbit sausage the other week, and it tasted like tasteless
    chicken sausage. Perhaps a little less smooth texture. It wasn't bad, but
    definitely not something to write home about either.

    I think that is actually the perfect summary.

    I've had it served as a stew with plenty of herbs and either smoked bacon or sausage, and its OK.

    Curried a wild one, once. OK.

    But I wouldn't go rushing out to buy it.


    Yes, I group it with the chickens. Plenty of spices and other stuff
    necessary to make it enjoyable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 2 21:38:12 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills-
    hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/

    You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.

    I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a clue. >>>
    In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on her head >>>
    I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky. It
    wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.

    One tends to avoid eating such.

    Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
    apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    Not bunnies
    Eaten pheasant and deer

    Both V good

    I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 2 21:37:46 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
    cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds
    involving
    smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the >>>> meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.

    This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.

    Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its muscle >>> that gets *used*

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat >>>> spoil the playing field.

    All domesticated species lose flavour.

    I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I asked >>> what it was 'wild baby pig'.
    We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you use?' >>> He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'

    We pay a price for cheap meat.

    These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has never
    been better.

    Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.

    Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They roam and >> eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world!

    Well the Welsh would argue with you there.

    But I would expect Icelandic to be good

    Absolutely outstanding. Very difficult to get outside of iceland. Do the
    welsh export a lot of lamb? I would be up for the challenge to compare it
    with icelandic.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 2 21:40:48 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:06:56 +0100, D wrote:


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    There is a diner in Utah that caters to truckers. A sign behind the
    counter says 'You kill it, we grill it'

    Really? Fascinating! Would never have thought that it would be legal
    anywhere in the world, especially not in a restaurant setting. On the
    other hand, with all the environmental hysteria going on, maybe this is a trend? ;)

    Harvesting roadkill in this state is legal with one provision. You can't field dress the animal by the side of the road and have to take the whole thing and dress it at home.

    The closest I've come is skinning a mink I hit. That process is enough to convince you mink isn't edible.

    A mink? But they are tiny! Was there anything left after you removed the
    skin? I saw a mink once in the country side in sweden. He had a death wish
    and tried to run out in front of my car, but I think he survived.

    I also saw a weasel in a huge park close to where I live. He was confused, because he had his winter clothing on, and it happened to be a day in the winter without snow, so easy to spot him.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to John Ames on Mon Dec 2 23:23:46 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:02:09 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with
    C++.

    That’s a very peculiar reason to prefer one language over another.

    Block/inline comments are handy in languages like C and C++ which don’t permit arguments to be specified by keyword. They let you write code like

    const bool ok = dbus_connection_set_watch_functions
    (
    /*connection =*/ conn,
    /*add_function =*/ add_watch,
    /*remove_function =*/ remove_watch,
    /*toggled_function =*/ toggle_watch,
    /*data =*/ NULL,
    /*free_data_function =*/ NULL
    );

    which helps keep long argument lists just that little bit more
    comprehensible.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Lars Poulsen@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 2 23:25:20 2024
    On 2024-12-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:02:09 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    On 26 Nov 2024 19:31:56 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    Early C++ was pretty awful. I understand iterators and other arcane
    bits have been cleaned up a lot but I have no need to use general C++.
    Arduino, Pico, and other microcontrollers use C/C++ but it's a limited
    subset of C++.

    Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with
    C++.

    They were a real improvement. Commenting out a block that already had a comment was painful. U think it was C99 that also allowed declaring a variable close to where you were using it rather than a laundry list at
    the head of a function.

    Best way to comment out stuff like that is to enclose it in a pair of
    #if 0
    ...
    #endif

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to John Ames on Mon Dec 2 23:28:37 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:21:29 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    Java, whatever else you want to say about it, is equally mediocre on any platform.

    Not to mention it is the Intellectual Property of a notoriously litigious company, desperate to monetize it in any way it can.

    Which is why Google is promoting Kotlin, now.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to Lars Poulsen on Tue Dec 3 00:59:05 2024
    On 2024-12-02, Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> wrote:

    On 2024-12-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:02:09 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    On 26 Nov 2024 19:31:56 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    Early C++ was pretty awful. I understand iterators and other arcane
    bits have been cleaned up a lot but I have no need to use general C++. >>>> Arduino, Pico, and other microcontrollers use C/C++ but it's a limited >>>> subset of C++.

    Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with >>> C++.

    They were a real improvement. Commenting out a block that already had a
    comment was painful. U think it was C99 that also allowed declaring a
    variable close to where you were using it rather than a laundry list at
    the head of a function.

    Best way to comment out stuff like that is to enclose it in a pair of
    #if 0
    ...
    #endif

    To make it stand out better (and be easier to search for), I use

    #ifdef DELETE_THIS

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to John Ames on Tue Dec 3 02:21:43 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:19:38 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:11:22 +0100 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize
    meat spoil the playing field.

    Ahh, ok, yes that makes sense.

    See also the Red Delicious, the certified 100% *least* delicious apple
    on the planet throughout *any* of our lifetimes...

    Yeah, but they last forever...

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180824070017/https:/www.nytimes.com/ 2000/11/04/us/perfect-apple-pushed-growers-into-debt.html

    The Red Delicious almost wiped out the Washington apple industry. They'd
    went all in on the cultivar and when the consumers finally decided the
    apple sucks they were in trouble. Did they learn? Hell, no.

    https://www.seriouseats.com/how-honeycrisp-apples-went-from-marvel-to- mediocre-8753117

    Long story, but they then jumped on Honeycrisps. The apples weren't bred
    to grow in Washington's climate nor were they meant to be a year around commodity apple.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 02:59:07 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 21:40:48 +0100, D wrote:


    A mink? But they are tiny! Was there anything left after you removed the skin? I saw a mink once in the country side in sweden. He had a death
    wish and tried to run out in front of my car, but I think he survived.

    I had no intention of eating it but after I realized what I had hit I
    wanted to tan the hide and give my girlfriend a mink. This was in the '60s before fur became anathema. Mink are in the Mustelidae family which have a common characteristic of anal scent glands. I never skinned a skunk but I assume it would be a similar experience. Before DNA analysis, skunks were included in the family ultil they were moved to their own.

    afaik, there are no skunks in Europe but you're not missing anything.
    There are a pair of skunks that show up here sometimes looking for cat
    food. Cats are smarter than dogs and ignore them and if I go out on the
    deck the skunks politely waddle off.


    I also saw a weasel in a huge park close to where I live. He was
    confused,
    because he had his winter clothing on, and it happened to be a day in
    the winter without snow, so easy to spot him.

    We have varying hares (snowshoe rabbits) that do the same.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowshoe_hare

    One fall I was coming out of the woods on a full moon night when I saw one
    in its white phase sitting on a black rock outcropping. He might as well
    have had a flashing neon sign. I'd seen some cruising owls so I wished him
    the best of luck.

    I don't know what triggers the change. I was coming down from a 10,000'
    peak and there wasn't even any snow there yet.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 03:54:48 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 21:38:12 +0100, D wrote:

    I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCsqyOaPsP4

    The deer does not go to waste. The old man loves deer too.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to John Ames on Tue Dec 3 03:46:46 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:21:29 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    The downside to C# is that being MS's baby, as far as I've ever seen it pretty much locks you into a Windows environment. Yes, technically Mono
    is A Thing That Exists, but it's about as pleasant as the disease with
    which it aptly shares a name. Java, whatever else you want to say about
    it, is equally mediocre on any platform.

    Yes and no. I have the dotnet SDK on my Fedora machine and an app that
    given an artist or track title queries the itunes database and returns
    either other tracks by the artist or covers of the title by various
    artists. The catch is it's command line. So far, there hasn't been a
    successful GUI system although there have been other attempts than Mnoo.

    Even on Windows 'dotnet build --runtime linux-x64' will build a package
    that executes on Linux in a separate subdirectory otherwise it builds for
    the current OS/architecture.

    Long story which Microsoft managed to obduscate with their versioning
    but .NET Core was a cross platform project while .NET Framework was
    Windows. .NET Core's last version was 3.1 which overlapped with .NET
    Framework 4.8. In 2020 they dropped the 'Core' so .NET 5.0 and above are
    the descendants of .NET Core 3.1, not Framework. Confused?

    ASP.NET became ASP.NET Core, although now it's usually just called
    ASP.NET.

    https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/learn/aspnet/what-is-aspnet

    And there you have the culmination of the plan, cross platform backends in
    C#. I suppose if you're a masochist you could use F# or VB. It fits in
    with WSL. The bet is on the cloud and Linux instances are cheaper than
    Windows Server instances, even on Azure.

    .NET MAUI supposedly targets Android, macOS, iOS, and Windows and is a
    follow on to Xamarin which followed Mono. The noticeable omission is
    Linux. I'm not sure what the long term business plan is but the one thing
    MS doesn't seem to be interested in is building desktop apps for Linux.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon Dec 2 23:57:33 2024
    On 12/1/24 3:47 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on any server-side
    'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to do all the hard work. In time they're
    gonna take away even PHP. Just watch .....

    I see it going the other way: the only way online services can control
    your experience to their liking is if your machine becomes just a dumb terminal with minimal autonomous functionality.

    Oddly, we're almost describing the same thing.

    IMHO they *do* want you to be a *barely* competent
    thin client ... "barely" is all that's required.
    Even on a gigabit connection, modern CPUs with
    not all that much RAM are "barely adequate" enough
    to handle most web stuff.

    Even a Pi4 is "barely competent enough" for web stuff.
    The dirt-cheapest $300 laptops on Amazon - kinda low-
    end/power i3 derivs (have a couple) are way good enough.
    Have a few BeeLink/BMax boxes - again those kinda sub-i3s -
    and they'll do most anything Web fairly snappy.

    They do NOT want yer PC to be "overly competent"
    because then you might have the zip to go around
    their control somehow or be able to install good
    software that'd detect their spy schemes in
    real time.

    So, there are kinda two takes on this ... but the
    Overall Plan is to go back to client/server as
    much as possible so they can charge by the byte
    AND have fair control/spying over those bytes.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 2 23:58:51 2024
    On 12/1/24 4:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
    well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is smaller/faster
    ... but what do you lose ?

    https://dev.to/emiliosp/nodejs-vs-apache-performance-battle-for-the- conquest-of-my-5c4n

    I haven't noticed that I lost anything using node.js. nginx is also taking market share from Apache.


    The alts ARE getting much better. Didn't start out
    like that however.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Rich on Mon Dec 2 23:28:12 2024
    On 12/1/24 11:27 AM, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 01/12/2024 09:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

      Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
      any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
      do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
      away even PHP. Just watch .....

    I am my own server lord.

    That solves everything
    ...
    ..or the entity purporting to be Larry Ellison on a random board who
    said my ideas were 'interesting' and wanted me to contact him...

    Sure Larry. I came floating down the Danube yesterday on a water biscuit... >>
    Who do these people think they are? Who do these people think I am?

    Who do they think they are? Con-men (although /they/ might not think
    so).

    Who do they think you are? A potential mark. The con-man game is all
    about the law of averages. Try enough marks, and some will take the
    bait and you'll (the con-man) get a payoff. To secure enough payoffs
    they have to try a lot of potential marks to find the few that bite.

    But they don't 'know' you, anymore than they know the other 1,000
    potential marks they tested yesterday.

    Exactly right.

    Cons don't expect every, even most, to fall for
    their BS - but ENOUGH will. They'll con yer granny,
    they'll con yer sister, they'll con any and anyone.
    Doesn't matter if they're rich or important - it's
    all a matter of numbers. If even one in a hundred,
    or a thousand, pay off ....

    There was an absolutely tragic instance in the US
    news about six months ago. Someone at a store noticed
    a rather elderly woman on the phone, and busy transferring
    large lots of money into a bitcoin-purchase machine. They
    called a cop. The cop took the phone and went full tilt
    against the (Indian/Pak ?) person on the other end - who
    was adamant to put the victim back on the line so the
    scam could continue. She'd been CONVINCED her bank
    accounts were at risk somehow and her Only Salvation
    was to transfer all she could into the BitCoin acct.
    She REALLY believed it, they'd hooked her GOOD.

    The cop ended the scam, but the woman had already
    sent maybe half or more of her savings into
    cyberspace, never to be seen again. MOST times
    nobody notices these things in progress.

    The last few years I was working there was a huge
    increase in fake invoices/bills - and they LOOKED
    legit, sometimes bore familiar names, sometimes
    carried the name of actual companies. BUT - fake.

    The HOPE was that the faux bills would just fly
    under the radar, get paid without thinking. The
    "familiar names" were clearly ripped-off by probing
    e-mails. The easy ones to spot had VERY vague
    reference to WHAT was allegedly purchased, but
    with others it was stuff the org MIGHT have been
    buying.

    Tracked one down to an Australian mining-supply corp
    claiming we'd bought some of their stuff - but our
    org was USA. The company was legit, had a web page
    and everything, but the BILL wasn't real, not even
    from them at all. We did NOT buy 250 bags of concrete
    mix from Oz.

    Sometimes you have to dig into the e-mail source,
    look at the links, even the JS, and research to
    discover the evil. I'd kinda trained the staff
    to detect a bad smell from e-mails. Alas the newer
    guys don't even know what a JS is, much less how
    to tell what it might DO. They expect commercial
    malware detectors to catch it all. Nope ! Ain't !

    But - the theory is "Not MY Fault - M$/Norton/Etc
    should have caught it !" and the paychecks continue.

    Oh, if an "invoice" comes as an Excel file - open it
    with LibreOffice instead and do NOT enable scripts.
    Found a bunch that sent stuff to eastern europe ...

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 3 00:10:24 2024
    On 12/1/24 1:54 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:21:34 +0100, D wrote:

    That was literally my first though when I saw the letter combination
    KFC... yuck, the coating! But never thought about actually just removing
    it, but it does seem like a waste to buy 0.5kg och chicken and removem
    0.25 kg of coating.

    But that's the good part! When we were dating my wife and I usually wound
    up a KFC sharing a bucket. On one road trip we found the worst KFC outlet
    -- in Kentucky. Also, eating KFC while driving isn't recommended. Greasing the steering wheel isn't recommended.

    I haven't had it or other deep fried chicken variants in decades. Tastes change.


    KFC *is* tasty ! That's why it's worldwide now.

    The GOOD part is that it's *still* quite tasty
    if you peel off the coating/skin. Your cal count
    and Grease Load drop by over 50% immediately.
    The 11 herbs and spices still permeate the REAL
    chicken part.

    Easiest to peel if you refrigerate briefly first,
    then microwave back to warmth.

    The "crispy" is easier to peel than 'original', but
    I usually buy original anyway.

    Oh, beware "chicken nuggets" these days, inflation
    has cause many to be more and more adulterated.
    If it don't have bones, don't :-)

    Oh, long LONG back, DID actually encounter Harlan
    Sanders at a store opening. There was a delay, I'd
    wandered around the lot to near the back door.
    Oh My Gawd - you should have HEARD him cussing
    the staff ... woulda made sailor blush !!! Learned
    some useful new words that day :-)

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Tue Dec 3 00:53:17 2024
    On 12/2/24 6:23 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:02:09 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with
    C++.

    That’s a very peculiar reason to prefer one language over another.

    Block/inline comments are handy in languages like C and C++ which don’t permit arguments to be specified by keyword. They let you write code like

    const bool ok = dbus_connection_set_watch_functions
    (
    /*connection =*/ conn,
    /*add_function =*/ add_watch,
    /*remove_function =*/ remove_watch,
    /*toggled_function =*/ toggle_watch,
    /*data =*/ NULL,
    /*free_data_function =*/ NULL
    );

    which helps keep long argument lists just that little bit more comprehensible.

    Kinda works.

    But, frankly I agree with John - barely ANY reason
    for C++ ... esp for 'system'-type stuff. I always
    stick to good old straight-up 'C'.

    "Object" works more naturally with other langs, but
    I still don't love it.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 3 00:20:59 2024
    On 12/1/24 2:02 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:36:18 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
    Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.

    Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.

    However some foods are so shit that nothing works.

    US cuisine, particularly that derived from Mexico, is the result of trying
    to make meat well past its sell-by date edible.


    That was the whole purpose of "spices" early on ...
    why they became such a huge trade. "Taste" came
    along later - hiding the smell of ROT was the
    first priority. The pungent eastern spices did
    that pretty well.


    During my trucking days I delivered a load of dry beans to a well known canned chili maker. The truck at the dock next to me was a reefer full of chicken. As we were being unloaded I talked to the trucker. His sad story
    was his refrigeration unit had broken down and the load had defrosted to
    the point where the original consignee refused it. The trucking company
    had found a way to get rid of the load so it wasn't a complete loss.

    I'm not a fan of canned chili and I definitely avoided that brand.

    Aw ... I'm sure they managed to re-sell it all, as "school
    lunches" :-)

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 00:30:27 2024
    On 12/2/24 9:02 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or
    curry the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard
    eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking
    upon. The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll
    see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good
    enough to get me to enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to
    be more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles -
    'tastes like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump
    of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this
    group could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish,
    protein at very good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with
    snake protein.

    In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'

    Edible if you wanted.

    Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
    which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just
    for the taking!


    Yea ... if you're down with locusts :-)

    There IS a vocal segment that basically want to FORCE
    everybody to eat insects almost entirely as "meat".

    Sorry, I like my meat to have had a moo or cluck or
    squeal .......

    Oh, avoid deer/moose meat now ... there's a lot of
    something like Mad Cow prion going around. NO cure
    for that. Bear meat - only WELL done as they tend
    to be full of parasites (bear meat isn't that good
    anyway).

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 3 10:08:14 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 21:40:48 +0100, D wrote:


    A mink? But they are tiny! Was there anything left after you removed the
    skin? I saw a mink once in the country side in sweden. He had a death
    wish and tried to run out in front of my car, but I think he survived.

    I had no intention of eating it but after I realized what I had hit I
    wanted to tan the hide and give my girlfriend a mink. This was in the '60s before fur became anathema. Mink are in the Mustelidae family which have a

    This it not good. I thought about getting a fur collar for my coat only to provoke woke:ist! ;) I also have a nice MAGA hat that I imported from the
    US waiting for me in Sweden, which I will proudly wear when I go to the
    super market to see if it can generate some socialist tears. ;)

    common characteristic of anal scent glands. I never skinned a skunk but I assume it would be a similar experience. Before DNA analysis, skunks were included in the family ultil they were moved to their own.

    afaik, there are no skunks in Europe but you're not missing anything.
    There are a pair of skunks that show up here sometimes looking for cat
    food. Cats are smarter than dogs and ignore them and if I go out on the
    deck the skunks politely waddle off.

    I saw a skunk once when I was 7 or so (on a trip in the US) and I tried to
    pet it, but the skunk had other ideas and walked away. There was no
    spraying! ;)


    I also saw a weasel in a huge park close to where I live. He was
    confused,
    because he had his winter clothing on, and it happened to be a day in
    the winter without snow, so easy to spot him.

    We have varying hares (snowshoe rabbits) that do the same.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowshoe_hare

    One fall I was coming out of the woods on a full moon night when I saw one
    in its white phase sitting on a black rock outcropping. He might as well
    have had a flashing neon sign. I'd seen some cruising owls so I wished him the best of luck.

    I don't know what triggers the change. I was coming down from a 10,000'
    peak and there wasn't even any snow there yet.

    The mysteries of nature. Amount of light or temperature perhaps?
    Individual differences to those factors?

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 3 10:04:56 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:19:38 -0800, John Ames wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:11:22 +0100 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize
    meat spoil the playing field.

    Ahh, ok, yes that makes sense.

    See also the Red Delicious, the certified 100% *least* delicious apple
    on the planet throughout *any* of our lifetimes...

    Yeah, but they last forever...

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180824070017/https:/www.nytimes.com/ 2000/11/04/us/perfect-apple-pushed-growers-into-debt.html

    The Red Delicious almost wiped out the Washington apple industry. They'd
    went all in on the cultivar and when the consumers finally decided the
    apple sucks they were in trouble. Did they learn? Hell, no.

    https://www.seriouseats.com/how-honeycrisp-apples-went-from-marvel-to- mediocre-8753117

    Long story, but they then jumped on Honeycrisps. The apples weren't bred
    to grow in Washington's climate nor were they meant to be a year around commodity apple.

    I have eaten this apple and I think it is average. What I find, is that
    the worse the apple looks on the surface, often, the better it tastes, as
    in, if it's from a local grower or a neighbour, it's not going to look
    polished and "industrial" but taste much better. Caveat emptor!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Tue Dec 3 10:13:58 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/2/24 9:02 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry >>>>>>> the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard >>>>>>> eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. >>>>>> The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how >>>>>> it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me >>>>>> to enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be >>>>> more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes >>>>> like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could >>>> be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very >>>> good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with
    snake protein.

    In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'

    Edible if you wanted.

    Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts which >> plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just for the >> taking!


    Yea ... if you're down with locusts :-)

    There IS a vocal segment that basically want to FORCE
    everybody to eat insects almost entirely as "meat".

    This is not good. I have nothing against the free and voluntary
    consumption of insects. If you're into it, be my guest! I am against
    forced consumption. But, given the amount of famine and starving children
    in africa, it would be interested to see if something could be done with
    the locust swarms to get cheap protein for the people.

    If I did not have food, I'd welcome insect food over nothing at all. In
    fact I've had grass hopper (deep fried) and it was actually quite good. I
    also had scorpion when I went to china once, and it tasted like a crunchy shrimp.

    Sorry, I like my meat to have had a moo or cluck or
    squeal .......

    Oh, avoid deer/moose meat now ... there's a lot of
    something like Mad Cow prion going around. NO cure
    for that. Bear meat - only WELL done as they tend
    to be full of parasites (bear meat isn't that good
    anyway).

    In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only
    thing you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a plluted
    lake. That is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central stockholm
    where for many decades heavy industry poured out its filth into the water.

    It's improving, but still not good enough. If you're 30 minutes away by
    boat from the center, then you can start to eat an occasional fish or two.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to John Ames on Tue Dec 3 10:47:57 2024
    On 02/12/2024 23:43, John Ames wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 02:41:14 -0500
    "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days know ASM.

    Very much depends on the communities you hang out in. It's certainly
    nowhere near as ubiquitous as it used to be, but quite a few geeks out
    there at least dabble with it for fun.

    I have a friend who has to use it to access certain aspects of the
    latest processors.

    I haven't used in in years...


    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 10:45:03 2024
    On 02/12/2024 20:40, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:06:56 +0100, D wrote:


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    There is a diner in Utah that caters to truckers. A sign behind the
    counter says 'You kill it, we grill it'

    I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
    doesn't have too many state laws.

    Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.


    I also saw a weasel in a huge park close to where I live. He was
    confused, because he had his winter clothing on, and it happened to be a
    day in the winter without snow, so easy to spot him.

    Weasel here dont go winter coat. Never enough snow.

    Anyone eaten squirrel?

    --
    Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 10:39:57 2024
    On 02/12/2024 20:38, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- >>>>> hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/

    You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.

    I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a
    clue.

    In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on
    her head

    I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky.
    It wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.

    One tends to avoid eating such.

    Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
    apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    Not bunnies
    Eaten pheasant and deer

    Both V good

    I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.

    Well yes. Technically you should not collect anything you have killed,
    but if the car in front hits it, it is, so to speak, 'fair game'...

    Pheasant must be what the person who invented the phrase 'bird brained'
    had in mind.

    They get bred in captivity and released in the autumn to get a bit leery
    and them shot around Christmas time, so you get a flood of avian retards waddling round the roads at this time of year.

    Of course they always take off at the last minute and hit the front
    grille or valance. Pigeons make it to the windscreen..

    I hit one once stopped but couldn't find it. Until 6 weeks later, when I
    was cleaning the car...

    --
    "When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Tue Dec 3 10:51:48 2024
    On 03/12/2024 04:58, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/1/24 4:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

        Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
        well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is smaller/faster >>>     ... but what do you lose ?

    https://dev.to/emiliosp/nodejs-vs-apache-performance-battle-for-the-
    conquest-of-my-5c4n

    I haven't noticed that I lost anything using node.js. nginx is also
    taking
    market share from Apache.


      The alts ARE getting much better. Didn't start out
      like that however.

    I think at least one did. Apache worked but it used memory like no
    tomorrow. There was another one, but I cannot remember its name - that
    was very compatible but less memory and faster.

    Maybe that WAS Nginx


    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 10:54:03 2024
    On 03/12/2024 09:13, D wrote:
    This is not good. I have nothing against the free and voluntary
    consumption of insects. If you're into it, be my guest! I am against
    forced consumption. But, given the amount of famine and starving
    children in africa, it would be interested to see if something could be
    done with the locust swarms to get cheap protein for the people.

    Basically they are distant cousins of shrimps prawns and lobsters.

    If I did not have food, I'd welcome insect food over nothing at all. In
    fact I've had grass hopper (deep fried) and it was actually quite good.
    I also had scorpion when I went to china once, and it tasted like a
    crunchy shrimp.

    Yup. Ive never bothered, but that's what they say.


    --
    "Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace, community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
    "What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

    "Jeremy Corbyn?"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 10:34:42 2024
    On 02/12/2024 20:37, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they >>>>>> cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds
    involving
    smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease
    the
    meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck. >>>>>
    This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.

    Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its
    muscle that gets *used*

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat >>>>> spoil the playing field.

    All domesticated species lose flavour.

    I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I
    asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
    We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you
    use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'

    We pay a price for cheap meat.

    These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has
    never been better.

    Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.

    Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They
    roam and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world!

    Well the Welsh would argue with you there.

    But I would expect Icelandic to be good

    Absolutely outstanding. Very difficult to get outside of iceland. Do the welsh export a lot of lamb? I would be up for the challenge to compare
    it with icelandic.

    Welsh lamb is apparently renowned world wide. It's hard to get even in
    the UK

    I think France imports most of it. French love their lamb, which is odd,
    since it is almost unheard of in Germany.

    Wales is hilly, not to say mountainous, and wet as - a very wet thing.
    Not as cold as iceland.


    --
    In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
    gets full Marx.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 3 19:00:55 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:39:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Pheasant must be what the person who invented the phrase 'bird brained'
    had in mind.

    They get bred in captivity and released in the autumn to get a bit leery
    and them shot around Christmas time, so you get a flood of avian retards waddling round the roads at this time of year.

    I almost hit a low flying one last week. They're pretty rare in this part
    of the state and aren't hatchery raised. The turkeys are the real retards.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 19:14:52 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:13:58 +0100, D wrote:

    In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only
    thing you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a plluted
    lake. That is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central stockholm
    where for many decades heavy industry poured out its filth into the
    water.

    The fishing sites along the river have signs cautioning people to limit
    their consumption to once a month and to not eat the pike at all. The
    copper mining operation upstream in the 20th century turned the whole
    river into a Superfund site. It's not as concentrated as the Berkeley Pit water that kills waterfowl but it's not a pure mountain stream.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 19:09:49 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:04:56 +0100, D wrote:

    I have eaten this apple and I think it is average. What I find, is that
    the worse the apple looks on the surface, often, the better it tastes,
    as in, if it's from a local grower or a neighbour, it's not going to
    look polished and "industrial" but taste much better. Caveat emptor!

    Sometimes. There is a neighborhood here called 'Orchard Homes' and there
    were orchards down the valley. The whole dream fizzled out both because of
    the climate and collusion by the railroads to keep them off the market.
    What's left is mostly McIntosh and are scrubby looking. The cultivar
    always was tart. They show up in the stores in large boxes in season but
    most of the output goes to cider.

    In town people who have a tree are supposed to harvest them to prevent attracting bears. The bears are fond of them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 3 18:53:46 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:45:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
    doesn't have too many state laws.

    Utah is an odd state. As you drive down one of the canyons you can look
    across and see the rifle pits that were constructed during the Mormon War.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War

    My brother lived in Utah for about 20 years. He had his work but his wife referred to it as 'camping out'. In the '60s and '70s everything revolved around the LDS church. If you were what they referred to as a 'gentile'
    there wasn't much. The author Ed Abbey quipped that only in Utah can a Jew
    be a gentile. It's liberalized quite a bit since then but it's still
    controlled by the LDS.

    Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density

    The numbers are somewhat deceiving. The valley along the lake from Ogden
    to Provo has about 1.2 million people, greater than the entire population
    of Montana.

    https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ut/salt-lake-city/crime#description


    Anyone eaten squirrel?

    Yes. Tastes like tough chicken.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Tue Dec 3 19:26:20 2024
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 23:58:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/1/24 4:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
    well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is
    smaller/faster ... but what do you lose ?

    https://dev.to/emiliosp/nodejs-vs-apache-performance-battle-for-the-
    conquest-of-my-5c4n

    I haven't noticed that I lost anything using node.js. nginx is also
    taking market share from Apache.


    The alts ARE getting much better. Didn't start out like that however.

    No, but that was then. This is now. Like Windows 10 older technology
    doesn't go away peacefully but getting stuck in the past isn't a good
    career move, not that it matters to me anymore.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 3 19:23:39 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:47:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 23:43, John Ames wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 02:41:14 -0500 "186282@ud0s4.net"
    <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days know ASM.

    Very much depends on the communities you hang out in. It's certainly
    nowhere near as ubiquitous as it used to be, but quite a few geeks out
    there at least dabble with it for fun.

    I have a friend who has to use it to access certain aspects of the
    latest processors.

    I haven't used in in years...

    The last time I used it was to test if AMD processors had some of the instructions Intel had implemented. AMD caught up but some of the Athlon processors didn't have the SSE instructions.

    Interesting how things worked out. Intel's CEO quit Sunday rather
    unexpectedly. He's out completely. Losing a few billion will do that to
    you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 3 19:30:09 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:51:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I think at least one did. Apache worked but it used memory like no
    tomorrow. There was another one, but I cannot remember its name - that
    was very compatible but less memory and faster.

    Maybe that WAS Nginx

    Yes. Nginx was held back a little when it only ran on Linux but now there
    are Windows binaries. They can be easily installed as Windows services
    using NSSM. (Non-Sucking Service Manager).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Tue Dec 3 19:32:51 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 00:10:24 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Oh, beware "chicken nuggets" these days, inflation has cause many to
    be more and more adulterated. If it don't have bones, don't

    'Mechanically deboned chicken' is on my list of things to avoid. A farmer attracted a lot of unwelcome attention when he ran some live chickens
    through a wood chipper but I think the process is similar if you kill them first.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 3 21:18:55 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 20:38, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- >>>>>> hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/

    You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.

    I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a clue. >>>>>
    In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on her >>>>> head

    I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky. It >>>>> wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.

    One tends to avoid eating such.

    Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
    apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    Not bunnies
    Eaten pheasant and deer

    Both V good

    I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.

    Well yes. Technically you should not collect anything you have killed, but if the car in front hits it, it is, so to speak, 'fair game'...

    Touché!

    Pheasant must be what the person who invented the phrase 'bird brained' had in mind.

    They get bred in captivity and released in the autumn to get a bit leery and them shot around Christmas time, so you get a flood of avian retards waddling round the roads at this time of year.

    This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country side
    house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or both. So
    now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time to time. I
    have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they are not shy at
    all. Maybe a project for next summer!

    Of course they always take off at the last minute and hit the front grille or valance. Pigeons make it to the windscreen..

    I hit one once stopped but couldn't find it. Until 6 weeks later, when I was cleaning the car...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 3 21:19:46 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 20:40, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:06:56 +0100, D wrote:


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    There is a diner in Utah that caters to truckers. A sign behind the
    counter says 'You kill it, we grill it'

    I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and doesn't have too many state laws.

    Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.


    I also saw a weasel in a huge park close to where I live. He was confused, >> because he had his winter clothing on, and it happened to be a day in the
    winter without snow, so easy to spot him.

    Weasel here dont go winter coat. Never enough snow.

    Anyone eaten squirrel?

    No, I would imagine that it might taste similar to guinea pig?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 3 21:21:59 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:45:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
    doesn't have too many state laws.

    Utah is an odd state. As you drive down one of the canyons you can look across and see the rifle pits that were constructed during the Mormon War.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War

    My brother lived in Utah for about 20 years. He had his work but his wife referred to it as 'camping out'. In the '60s and '70s everything revolved around the LDS church. If you were what they referred to as a 'gentile'
    there wasn't much. The author Ed Abbey quipped that only in Utah can a Jew
    be a gentile. It's liberalized quite a bit since then but it's still controlled by the LDS.

    Was he able to have many women when he lived there? ;)

    Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density

    The numbers are somewhat deceiving. The valley along the lake from Ogden
    to Provo has about 1.2 million people, greater than the entire population
    of Montana.

    https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ut/salt-lake-city/crime#description


    Anyone eaten squirrel?

    Yes. Tastes like tough chicken.

    If you catch one, make sure you save the tail hair. Apparently, according
    to the wife, that's what is used for very high quality paint brushes!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 3 21:16:57 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 20:37, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they >>>>>>> cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds
    involving
    smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the >>>>>> meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck. >>>>>>
    This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.

    Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its muscle >>>>> that gets *used*

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat >>>>>> spoil the playing field.

    All domesticated species lose flavour.

    I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I asked >>>>> what it was 'wild baby pig'.
    We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you >>>>> use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'

    We pay a price for cheap meat.

    These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has never >>>>> been better.

    Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.

    Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They roam >>>> and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world!

    Well the Welsh would argue with you there.

    But I would expect Icelandic to be good

    Absolutely outstanding. Very difficult to get outside of iceland. Do the
    welsh export a lot of lamb? I would be up for the challenge to compare it
    with icelandic.

    Welsh lamb is apparently renowned world wide. It's hard to get even in the UK

    I think France imports most of it. French love their lamb, which is odd, since it is almost unheard of in Germany.

    Wales is hilly, not to say mountainous, and wet as - a very wet thing. Not as cold as iceland.

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
    the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 3 21:24:24 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:04:56 +0100, D wrote:

    I have eaten this apple and I think it is average. What I find, is that
    the worse the apple looks on the surface, often, the better it tastes,
    as in, if it's from a local grower or a neighbour, it's not going to
    look polished and "industrial" but taste much better. Caveat emptor!

    Sometimes. There is a neighborhood here called 'Orchard Homes' and there
    were orchards down the valley. The whole dream fizzled out both because of the climate and collusion by the railroads to keep them off the market. What's left is mostly McIntosh and are scrubby looking. The cultivar
    always was tart. They show up in the stores in large boxes in season but
    most of the output goes to cider.

    A cider... the drink of the gods! But it has to be dry cider. I can't
    stand the sugar filled versions.

    In town people who have a tree are supposed to harvest them to prevent attracting bears. The bears are fond of them.


    I had a meeting with the US office of a customer of mine this monday, and apparently a bear came to visit them for thanks giving in Lake tahoe. It
    was not aggressive and after some souting and jumping up and down, it
    walked away.

    But they are smart! Apparently they have learned how to open the garage
    door.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 3 21:25:12 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:13:58 +0100, D wrote:

    In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only
    thing you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a plluted
    lake. That is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central stockholm
    where for many decades heavy industry poured out its filth into the
    water.

    The fishing sites along the river have signs cautioning people to limit
    their consumption to once a month and to not eat the pike at all. The
    copper mining operation upstream in the 20th century turned the whole
    river into a Superfund site. It's not as concentrated as the Berkeley Pit water that kills waterfowl but it's not a pure mountain stream.


    Sounds like a similar situation. Have there ever been initiatives to try
    and clean it up?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 20:53:03 2024
    On 03/12/2024 20:18, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 20:38, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>>
    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out. >>>>>>>
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- >>>>>>> hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/

    You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.

    I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a >>>>>> clue.

    In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on
    her head

    I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the
    sky. It wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.

    One tends to avoid eating such.

    Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
    apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    Not bunnies
    Eaten pheasant and deer

    Both V good

    I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.

    Well yes. Technically you should not collect anything you have killed,
    but if the car in front hits it, it is, so to speak, 'fair game'...

    Touché!

    Pheasant must be what the person who invented the phrase 'bird
    brained' had in mind.

    They get bred in captivity and released in the autumn to get a bit
    leery and them shot around Christmas time, so you get a flood of avian
    retards waddling round the roads at this time of year.

    This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country side house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or both.
    So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time to
    time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they are
    not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!


    I shot one with a .22 air rifle.

    It didn't die. I tried to wring its neck.
    The head came off, and it still didn't die.
    Eventually it died and I plucked it and emptied its insides and ate it.
    Quite good really.


    Mostly they use 12 gauge on them. That seems to kill them ouright


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 20:50:01 2024
    On 03/12/2024 20:16, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 20:37, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they >>>>>>>> cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds >>>>>>> involving
    smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the
    grease the
    meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like
    duck.

    This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.

    Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its
    muscle that gets *used*

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize >>>>>>> meat
    spoil the playing field.

    All domesticated species lose flavour.

    I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I >>>>>> asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
    We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did
    you use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!' >>>>>>
    We pay a price for cheap meat.

    These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has
    never been better.

    Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.

    Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They
    roam and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the
    world!

    Well the Welsh would argue with you there.

    But I would expect Icelandic to be good

    Absolutely outstanding. Very difficult to get outside of iceland. Do
    the welsh export a lot of lamb? I would be up for the challenge to
    compare it with icelandic.

    Welsh lamb is apparently renowned world wide. It's hard to get even in
    the UK

    I think France imports most of it. French love their lamb, which is
    odd, since it is almost unheard of in Germany.

    Wales is hilly, not to say mountainous, and wet as - a very wet thing.
    Not as cold as iceland.

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
    the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    Not much on a welsh hillside sadly.

    I cant think of any herbs I found when clambering over the hills. Found
    a force landed helicopter though once.

    I was nice up there., You could look DOWN on the jets doing subsonic
    passes up the valleys.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gQz-5HclDo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT7qrYi8R_M

    That's all lamb country on the hills.
    To steep for crops.

    --
    “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

    —Soren Kierkegaard

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 3 20:55:05 2024
    On 03/12/2024 20:21, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:45:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
    doesn't have too many state laws.

    Utah is an odd state. As you drive down one of the canyons you can look
    across and see the rifle pits that were constructed during the Mormon
    War.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War

    My brother lived in Utah for about 20 years. He had his work but his wife
    referred to it as 'camping out'. In the '60s and '70s everything revolved
    around the LDS church. If you were what they referred to as a 'gentile'
    there wasn't much. The author Ed Abbey quipped that only in Utah can a
    Jew
    be a gentile. It's liberalized quite a bit since then but it's still
    controlled by the LDS.

    Was he able to have many women when he lived there? ;)

    Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density

    The numbers are somewhat deceiving. The valley along the lake from Ogden
    to Provo has about 1.2 million people, greater than the entire population
    of Montana.

    https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ut/salt-lake-city/crime#description


    Anyone eaten squirrel?

    Yes. Tastes like tough chicken.

    If you catch one, make sure you save the tail hair. Apparently,
    according to the wife, that's what is used for very high quality paint brushes!

    Indeed it is.

    I picked one up once, it was a bit tame. Then it got scared and ploughed furrows in my hands.

    I understand now how they climb trees. They come with crampons built in


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 00:24:01 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 20:55:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I picked one up once, it was a bit tame. Then it got scared and ploughed furrows in my hands.

    I understand now how they climb trees. They come with crampons built in

    When I was a kid there was a squirrel that came around at breakfast time looking for a handout. He would hang on the kitchen window screen and look
    in until he got his treat. It wasn't really animal abuse but I would give
    him bread with peanut butter. He enjoyed the peanut butter but it was
    amusing watching him trying to get it off the roof of his mouth.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 00:32:03 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 20:53:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Mostly they use 12 gauge on them. That seems to kill them ouright

    If you get a solid hit. See my other post about beagle versus pheasant.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 00:30:50 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:18:55 +0100, D wrote:

    This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country side house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or both.
    So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time to
    time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they are
    not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!

    That could be interesting. My father and I were rabbit hunting when a
    pheasant provided a target of opportunity. My father managed to knock the
    bird down and it landed in some brush about 50 yards away. The beagle ran
    over but after a brief scuffle the pheasant flew off and the beagle
    decided he wasn't a bird dog.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 00:42:21 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
    the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0

    https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure

    "Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans
    across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
    though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Due
    to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme in a diverse range of landscapes"

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 00:20:01 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:21:59 +0100, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:45:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
    doesn't have too many state laws.

    Utah is an odd state. As you drive down one of the canyons you can look
    across and see the rifle pits that were constructed during the Mormon
    War.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War

    My brother lived in Utah for about 20 years. He had his work but his
    wife referred to it as 'camping out'. In the '60s and '70s everything
    revolved around the LDS church. If you were what they referred to as a
    'gentile' there wasn't much. The author Ed Abbey quipped that only in
    Utah can a Jew be a gentile. It's liberalized quite a bit since then
    but it's still controlled by the LDS.

    Was he able to have many women when he lived there?

    His wife was the daughter of a Baptist minister. I don't think she was
    into the polygamy bit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinesdale,_Montana

    The AUB is a fundamentalist offspring of the LDS church and the common
    belief is that they're polygamists. They don't cause problems so nobody
    looks too closely.

    The town is at the base of the Bitterroot range and there are hiking
    trails on the slopes. One Sunday I met a young man, two young women, and several kids on a trail taking a stroll. They were polite, well dressed
    and appeared to be enjoying the nice weather. Not my place to get into
    their living arrangements.

    If you catch one, make sure you save the tail hair. Apparently,
    according to the wife, that's what is used for very high quality paint brushes!

    I skinned out the squirrels and rabbits I shot and tanned the hides. With
    a squirrel you can pull the vertebrae out and leave the tail intact.
    Squirrels have a much thicker hide than rabbits. A tanned rabbit hide is
    almost like parchment with fur on it, quite supple. A squirrel is very
    stiff until you work the hide like you would with buckskin.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 01:37:23 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:24:24 +0100, D wrote:


    A cider... the drink of the gods! But it has to be dry cider. I can't
    stand the sugar filled versions.

    https://westerncider.com/ciders-on-tap

    I have no first hand knowledge but they have quite a selection. Quite a
    dew microbreweries sprung up and these people decided to try cider. I've
    walked by and it does seem to attract a crowd but not quite as much as the breweries.

    It's a little more authentic than a couple of attempts at wineries. Grapes don't do well here so most of the grapes are imported with a few locally
    grown grapes thrown in. One woman was honest enough to make wine from
    stuff that does grow locally like rhubarb. No idea about that wither.

    I had a meeting with the US office of a customer of mine this monday,
    and apparently a bear came to visit them for thanks giving in Lake
    tahoe. It was not aggressive and after some souting and jumping up and
    down, it walked away.

    One of our people was returning from lunch and took a photo of a bear
    crossing at a 4-way stop at the corner of our parking lot. The bear seemed
    to have a destination although the next street in the direction he was
    headed was a major thoroughfare where all the big box stores and fast food places live. Maybe he wanted a taco or maybe he didn't get the memo. 30
    years ago that street was a two lane road at the edge of town.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 01:15:38 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:25:12 +0100, D wrote:


    Sounds like a similar situation. Have there ever been initiatives to try
    and clean it up?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Reservoir_Superfund_Site

    There are several projects along the river. The mines were in Butte and
    the chief problem there is the Berkeley Pit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit

    Prior to the open pit mine the hill is riddled with traditional hard rock mines. When they were active pumps kept the ground water in control. The
    pumps were turned off in '82 and the pit started to fill.

    The ores were smelted in Anaconda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_Smelter_Stack

    They realized the problem and the stack was an attempt to get the fumes
    out of the valley. It succeeded in that but they also had to buy a lot of
    land downwind. Even today not much grows there and the few trees are
    deformed. Anaconda took a novel approach and built a golf course on the tailings.

    https://nicklausdesign.com/course/oldworks/

    There still are acres of uncovered tailings. If you take the hiking traill around the course you get to see the before state.

    Then there was the Milltown Dam. There was a lot of foot dragging and
    finger pointing but in '96 an exceptionally snowy winter formed ice floes
    and the dam was in danger of failing. That got peoples' attention. It was
    a long process but the sediments were sent back to Anaconda where they
    came from and the dam was removed. When you've got lemons, make a state
    park.

    https://fwp.mt.gov/stateparks/milltown

    The web site is a bit dated. The dam had acted to stabilize a rock face on
    the south side where the overlook is. A couple of years ago they decided
    it was unstable and closed it off. The old Milwaukee rail line has been converted to a bike path but Tunnel 26 1/2 passes under the outlook and
    the state isn't going to take the liability for that. There was also a
    plan to use an old bridge to cross the river where the rail bridge was and connect the north and south parts of the park but that's held up with some
    land deal. I often hike the trail up and over the ridge and down to the floodplain on the other side but it would be a difficult bike ride.

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  • From Robert Riches@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Wed Dec 4 04:03:58 2024
    On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 19:13, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
    could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at >>>> very good prices!

    https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu

    I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
    years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers >>> to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch
    on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
    chicken or quite like beef.

    Same as ostrich. It's just not very interesting as meat

    There is a huge range of meat (and fungi) that are edible, but so dull or
    faintly obnoxious that no one does.

    Wild hare (jack rabbit) tastes and smells like jockstraps after a hard match.
    By the time you have got rid of that flavour all the other flavour has gone >> too.

    Same goes for the muddy taste in pond reared carp.

    Rabbit is plain dull. But in a stew with bacon and vegetables and plenty of >> herbs, its not bad

    I bought some rabbit sausage the other week, and it tasted like
    tasteless chicken sausage. Perhaps a little less smooth texture. It wasn't bad, but definitely not something to write home about either.

    About 45 years ago, while eating in the college dorm cafeteria, I
    noticed the piece of "chicken" on my plate was a little tougher
    and drier than most chicken, and the arrangement of the bones did
    not appear to be consistent with any piece of chicken I had ever
    seen. I had eaten rabbit a few years earlier, when my uncle was
    raising them, so I started to suspect the "chicken" was really
    rabbit. My suspicion was confirmed when I heard a girl shriek
    rather unhappily from a couple of tables away, "We're eating
    BUNNIES!"

    --
    Robert Riches
    spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
    (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 00:44:28 2024
    On 12/3/24 4:13 AM, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/2/24 9:02 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or >>>>>>>> curry the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back
    yard eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking
    upon. The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and
    we'll see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not
    good enough to get me to enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it
    to be more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles >>>>>> - 'tastes like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald
    Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for
    this group could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell
    chicken:ish, protein at very good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared
    with snake protein.

    In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'

    Edible if you wanted.

    Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
    which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there,
    just for the taking!


     Yea ... if you're down with locusts  :-)

     There IS a vocal segment that basically want to FORCE
     everybody to eat insects almost entirely as "meat".

    This is not good. I have nothing against the free and voluntary
    consumption of insects. If you're into it, be my guest! I am against
    forced consumption. But, given the amount of famine and starving
    children in africa, it would be interested to see if something could be
    done with the locust swarms to get cheap protein for the people.

    If I did not have food, I'd welcome insect food over nothing at all. In
    fact I've had grass hopper (deep fried) and it was actually quite good.
    I also had scorpion when I went to china once, and it tasted like a
    crunchy shrimp.

     Sorry, I like my meat to have had a moo or cluck or
     squeal .......

     Oh, avoid deer/moose meat now ... there's a lot of
     something like Mad Cow prion going around. NO cure
     for that. Bear meat - only WELL done as they tend
     to be full of parasites (bear meat isn't that good
     anyway).

    In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only
    thing you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a plluted
    lake. That is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central stockholm
    where for many decades heavy industry poured out its filth into the water.

    It's improving, but still not good enough. If you're 30 minutes away by
    boat from the center, then you can start to eat an occasional fish or two.


    The prion problem seems localized to north America
    at the moment. You're probably OK in Sweden, for now.

    Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around
    species .......

    Bear ... it's really kinda yuk.

    Wild boar, anywhere, STILL tend to carry nasty
    parasites. Always cook well-done.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 10:27:21 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 03/12/2024 20:21, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:45:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
    doesn't have too many state laws.

    Utah is an odd state. As you drive down one of the canyons you can look
    across and see the rifle pits that were constructed during the Mormon War. >>>
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War

    My brother lived in Utah for about 20 years. He had his work but his wife >>> referred to it as 'camping out'. In the '60s and '70s everything revolved >>> around the LDS church. If you were what they referred to as a 'gentile'
    there wasn't much. The author Ed Abbey quipped that only in Utah can a Jew >>> be a gentile. It's liberalized quite a bit since then but it's still
    controlled by the LDS.

    Was he able to have many women when he lived there? ;)

    Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density >>>
    The numbers are somewhat deceiving. The valley along the lake from Ogden >>> to Provo has about 1.2 million people, greater than the entire population >>> of Montana.

    https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ut/salt-lake-city/crime#description


    Anyone eaten squirrel?

    Yes. Tastes like tough chicken.

    If you catch one, make sure you save the tail hair. Apparently, according
    to the wife, that's what is used for very high quality paint brushes!

    Indeed it is.

    I picked one up once, it was a bit tame. Then it got scared and ploughed furrows in my hands.

    They are very cute, but can be annoying! There lives on close to the
    camper where I sleep in the country side. In summer, sometimes he goes
    crazy and starts to throw stuff on the roof of the camper or runs across
    the roof several times for some reason. Annoying when you've been up at 05
    for early morning fishing and trying to recover! ;)

    I understand now how they climb trees. They come with crampons built in




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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 10:24:24 2024
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 03/12/2024 20:16, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 20:37, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:

    What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they >>>>>>>>> cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.

    There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds >>>>>>>> involving
    smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease >>>>>>>> the
    meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck. >>>>>>>>
    This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much. >>>>>>>
    Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its >>>>>>> muscle that gets *used*

    I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize >>>>>>>> meat
    spoil the playing field.

    All domesticated species lose flavour.

    I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I >>>>>>> asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
    We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you >>>>>>> use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!' >>>>>>>
    We pay a price for cheap meat.

    These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has >>>>>>> never been better.

    Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.

    Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They roam >>>>>> and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world! >>>>>
    Well the Welsh would argue with you there.

    But I would expect Icelandic to be good

    Absolutely outstanding. Very difficult to get outside of iceland. Do the >>>> welsh export a lot of lamb? I would be up for the challenge to compare it >>>> with icelandic.

    Welsh lamb is apparently renowned world wide. It's hard to get even in the >>> UK

    I think France imports most of it. French love their lamb, which is odd, >>> since it is almost unheard of in Germany.

    Wales is hilly, not to say mountainous, and wet as - a very wet thing. Not >>> as cold as iceland.

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
    the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    Not much on a welsh hillside sadly.

    That's sad from the point of view of the meat. =(

    I cant think of any herbs I found when clambering over the hills. Found a force landed helicopter though once.

    I was nice up there., You could look DOWN on the jets doing subsonic passes up the valleys.

    Similar to my house in spain. It's in a mountainous area and I haven't
    seen it myself but my father told me that the spanish airforce do the same
    kind of practice there.

    It is very impressive! Now, due to the Ukraine situation, I've twice seen fighter jets above my house.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gQz-5HclDo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT7qrYi8R_M

    That's all lamb country on the hills.
    To steep for crops.



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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 10:25:48 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 03/12/2024 20:18, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 20:38, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>>>
    The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out. >>>>>>>>
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- >>>>>>>> hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/

    You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.

    I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a >>>>>>> clue.

    In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on her >>>>>>> head

    I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky. >>>>>>> It wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.

    One tends to avoid eating such.

    Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and >>>>>>> apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it


    What about roadkill? Did you ever try?

    Not bunnies
    Eaten pheasant and deer

    Both V good

    I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.

    Well yes. Technically you should not collect anything you have killed, but >>> if the car in front hits it, it is, so to speak, 'fair game'...

    Touché!

    Pheasant must be what the person who invented the phrase 'bird brained'
    had in mind.

    They get bred in captivity and released in the autumn to get a bit leery >>> and them shot around Christmas time, so you get a flood of avian retards >>> waddling round the roads at this time of year.

    This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country side
    house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or both. So
    now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time to time. I
    have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they are not shy at
    all. Maybe a project for next summer!


    I shot one with a .22 air rifle.

    It didn't die. I tried to wring its neck.

    Too little energy I assume? Did you hit it dead center?

    The head came off, and it still didn't die.

    Surely it must have been only reflexes?

    Eventually it died and I plucked it and emptied its insides and ate it. Quite good really.

    I can imagine!

    Mostly they use 12 gauge on them. That seems to kill them ouright

    I think you can buy small mines made specifically for birds! ;)




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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 10:32:35 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    His wife was the daughter of a Baptist minister. I don't think she was
    into the polygamy bit.

    What a shame! ;)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinesdale,_Montana

    The AUB is a fundamentalist offspring of the LDS church and the common
    belief is that they're polygamists. They don't cause problems so nobody
    looks too closely.

    The town is at the base of the Bitterroot range and there are hiking
    trails on the slopes. One Sunday I met a young man, two young women, and several kids on a trail taking a stroll. They were polite, well dressed
    and appeared to be enjoying the nice weather. Not my place to get into
    their living arrangements.

    This is the truth! As long as all is voluntary and everyone happy, who am I to quarrel? But I do find the assymetry of the arrangement interesting. You never read about LDS women having many men. But to each his own.

    If you catch one, make sure you save the tail hair. Apparently,
    according to the wife, that's what is used for very high quality paint
    brushes!

    I skinned out the squirrels and rabbits I shot and tanned the hides. With
    a squirrel you can pull the vertebrae out and leave the tail intact. Squirrels have a much thicker hide than rabbits. A tanned rabbit hide is almost like parchment with fur on it, quite supple. A squirrel is very
    stiff until you work the hide like you would with buckskin.

    Hmm... rabbit slippers? Save the ears! ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 10:33:20 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 20:55:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I picked one up once, it was a bit tame. Then it got scared and ploughed
    furrows in my hands.

    I understand now how they climb trees. They come with crampons built in

    When I was a kid there was a squirrel that came around at breakfast time looking for a handout. He would hang on the kitchen window screen and look
    in until he got his treat. It wasn't really animal abuse but I would give
    him bread with peanut butter. He enjoyed the peanut butter but it was
    amusing watching him trying to get it off the roof of his mouth.


    In todays youtube world, you could have been a millionaire with a video of that!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 10:35:55 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
    the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0

    https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure

    "Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
    though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Due
    to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme in a diverse range of landscapes"

    Thyme and rosemary are both excellent with lamb!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 11:09:48 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:24:24 +0100, D wrote:


    A cider... the drink of the gods! But it has to be dry cider. I can't
    stand the sugar filled versions.

    https://westerncider.com/ciders-on-tap

    I have no first hand knowledge but they have quite a selection. Quite a
    dew microbreweries sprung up and these people decided to try cider. I've walked by and it does seem to attract a crowd but not quite as much as the breweries.

    It's a little more authentic than a couple of attempts at wineries. Grapes don't do well here so most of the grapes are imported with a few locally grown grapes thrown in. One woman was honest enough to make wine from
    stuff that does grow locally like rhubarb. No idea about that wither.

    I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
    apparently, according to my father, it was awful. ;)

    But overall, I think as long as apples grow, it should be possible to do
    some very beautiful things in terms of cider!

    I had a meeting with the US office of a customer of mine this monday,
    and apparently a bear came to visit them for thanks giving in Lake
    tahoe. It was not aggressive and after some souting and jumping up and
    down, it walked away.

    One of our people was returning from lunch and took a photo of a bear crossing at a 4-way stop at the corner of our parking lot. The bear seemed
    to have a destination although the next street in the direction he was
    headed was a major thoroughfare where all the big box stores and fast food places live. Maybe he wanted a taco or maybe he didn't get the memo. 30
    years ago that street was a two lane road at the edge of town.

    It is inspiring that the bears are so integrated into society, welcomed on equal terms. ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 10:37:37 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:25:12 +0100, D wrote:


    Sounds like a similar situation. Have there ever been initiatives to try
    and clean it up?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Reservoir_Superfund_Site

    There are several projects along the river. The mines were in Butte and
    the chief problem there is the Berkeley Pit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit

    Prior to the open pit mine the hill is riddled with traditional hard rock mines. When they were active pumps kept the ground water in control. The pumps were turned off in '82 and the pit started to fill.

    The ores were smelted in Anaconda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_Smelter_Stack

    They realized the problem and the stack was an attempt to get the fumes
    out of the valley. It succeeded in that but they also had to buy a lot of land downwind. Even today not much grows there and the few trees are deformed. Anaconda took a novel approach and built a golf course on the tailings.

    https://nicklausdesign.com/course/oldworks/

    There still are acres of uncovered tailings. If you take the hiking traill around the course you get to see the before state.

    Then there was the Milltown Dam. There was a lot of foot dragging and
    finger pointing but in '96 an exceptionally snowy winter formed ice floes
    and the dam was in danger of failing. That got peoples' attention. It was
    a long process but the sediments were sent back to Anaconda where they
    came from and the dam was removed. When you've got lemons, make a state
    park.

    https://fwp.mt.gov/stateparks/milltown

    The web site is a bit dated. The dam had acted to stabilize a rock face on the south side where the overlook is. A couple of years ago they decided
    it was unstable and closed it off. The old Milwaukee rail line has been converted to a bike path but Tunnel 26 1/2 passes under the outlook and
    the state isn't going to take the liability for that. There was also a
    plan to use an old bridge to cross the river where the rail bridge was and connect the north and south parts of the park but that's held up with some land deal. I often hike the trail up and over the ridge and down to the floodplain on the other side but it would be a difficult bike ride.

    Surely looks like good fishing on the web site! =) But maybe it is fishing only, and not eating them?

    Regardless positive that they decided to make a state park out of it!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Wed Dec 4 11:12:25 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/3/24 4:13 AM, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/2/24 9:02 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or >>>>>>>>> curry the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard >>>>>>>>> eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. >>>>>>>> The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how >>>>>>>> it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get >>>>>>>> me to enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be >>>>>>> more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes >>>>>>> like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group >>>>>> could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein >>>>>> at very good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with >>>>>> snake protein.

    In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'

    Edible if you wanted.

    Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
    which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just >>>> for the taking!


     Yea ... if you're down with locusts  :-)

     There IS a vocal segment that basically want to FORCE
     everybody to eat insects almost entirely as "meat".

    This is not good. I have nothing against the free and voluntary consumption >> of insects. If you're into it, be my guest! I am against forced
    consumption. But, given the amount of famine and starving children in
    africa, it would be interested to see if something could be done with the
    locust swarms to get cheap protein for the people.

    If I did not have food, I'd welcome insect food over nothing at all. In
    fact I've had grass hopper (deep fried) and it was actually quite good. I
    also had scorpion when I went to china once, and it tasted like a crunchy
    shrimp.

     Sorry, I like my meat to have had a moo or cluck or
     squeal .......

     Oh, avoid deer/moose meat now ... there's a lot of
     something like Mad Cow prion going around. NO cure
     for that. Bear meat - only WELL done as they tend
     to be full of parasites (bear meat isn't that good
     anyway).

    In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only thing >> you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a plluted lake. That >> is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central stockholm where for many >> decades heavy industry poured out its filth into the water.

    It's improving, but still not good enough. If you're 30 minutes away by
    boat from the center, then you can start to eat an occasional fish or two.


    The prion problem seems localized to north America
    at the moment. You're probably OK in Sweden, for now.

    Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around
    species .......

    Bear ... it's really kinda yuk.

    I never had bear myself, but my father once had it in Helsinki in a
    russian restaurant. Apparently he thought it was quite alright, although
    not something he was dreaming about afterwards.

    Wild boar, anywhere, STILL tend to carry nasty
    parasites. Always cook well-done.

    Wild boar is very tasty! I had bbq:d smoked boar two years ago, and it was amazing!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Robert Riches on Wed Dec 4 11:10:53 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, Robert Riches wrote:

    On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 19:13, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
    could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at >>>>> very good prices!

    https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu

    I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
    years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers >>>> to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch >>>> on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
    chicken or quite like beef.

    Same as ostrich. It's just not very interesting as meat

    There is a huge range of meat (and fungi) that are edible, but so dull or >>> faintly obnoxious that no one does.

    Wild hare (jack rabbit) tastes and smells like jockstraps after a hard match.
    By the time you have got rid of that flavour all the other flavour has gone >>> too.

    Same goes for the muddy taste in pond reared carp.

    Rabbit is plain dull. But in a stew with bacon and vegetables and plenty of
    herbs, its not bad

    I bought some rabbit sausage the other week, and it tasted like
    tasteless chicken sausage. Perhaps a little less smooth texture. It wasn't >> bad, but definitely not something to write home about either.

    About 45 years ago, while eating in the college dorm cafeteria, I
    noticed the piece of "chicken" on my plate was a little tougher
    and drier than most chicken, and the arrangement of the bones did
    not appear to be consistent with any piece of chicken I had ever
    seen. I had eaten rabbit a few years earlier, when my uncle was
    raising them, so I started to suspect the "chicken" was really
    rabbit. My suspicion was confirmed when I heard a girl shriek
    rather unhappily from a couple of tables away, "We're eating
    BUNNIES!"

    How strange! How come they didn't just say that todays special was rabbit?
    Or maybe there was an error somewhere with the delivery and some boxed got mixed up?

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 11:58:47 2024
    On 04/12/2024 00:30, rbowman wrote:
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:18:55 +0100, D wrote:

    This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country side
    house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or both.
    So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time to
    time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they are
    not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!

    That could be interesting. My father and I were rabbit hunting when a pheasant provided a target of opportunity. My father managed to knock the bird down and it landed in some brush about 50 yards away. The beagle ran over but after a brief scuffle the pheasant flew off and the beagle
    decided he wasn't a bird dog.

    LOL!


    --
    "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
    let them."

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 12:07:17 2024
    On 04/12/2024 00:32, rbowman wrote:
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 20:53:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Mostly they use 12 gauge on them. That seems to kill them ouright

    If you get a solid hit. See my other post about beagle versus pheasant.

    Many are 'winged' that is they get a broken wing, and they cant fly.
    Then the retrievers...retrieve them. I am not sure how they get killed,. Retrievers have very soft mouths and do not damage them.
    The ones then end up with breasts full of bird shot are the ones I used
    to get given. Ugly colored bruising and not too appetising. Pheasant
    vinadaloo however is very nice indeed.

    (Vindaloo has a lot of chilli, and vinegar and hot pungent spices)
    --
    "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
    let them."

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 12:10:00 2024
    On 04/12/2024 00:42, rbowman wrote:
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
    the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0

    Ah. Celtic melodies - the basis for much of the USAs country music.


    https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure

    "Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
    though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Due
    to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme in a diverse range of landscapes"

    Oh That stuff. Seen it a lot in wales. I wonder if the sheep eat it?

    --
    The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
    its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

    Anon.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 12:10:44 2024
    On 04/12/2024 09:35, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on >>> the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0

    https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure

    "Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans
    across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
    though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland.
    Due
    to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme
    in a
    diverse range of landscapes"

    Thyme and rosemary are both excellent with lamb!

    Rosemary especially but I am not sure it grows wild much in the UK

    It is hardy when planted.

    --
    The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
    its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

    Anon.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 12:13:29 2024
    On 04/12/2024 10:10, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, Robert Riches wrote:


    About 45 years ago, while eating in the college dorm cafeteria, I
    noticed the piece of "chicken" on my plate was a little tougher
    and drier than most chicken, and the arrangement of the bones did
    not appear to be consistent with any piece of chicken I had ever
    seen.  I had eaten rabbit a few years earlier, when my uncle was
    raising them, so I started to suspect the "chicken" was really
    rabbit.  My suspicion was confirmed when I heard a girl shriek
    rather unhappily from a couple of tables away, "We're eating
    BUNNIES!"

    How strange! How come they didn't just say that todays special was
    rabbit? Or maybe there was an error somewhere with the delivery and some boxed got mixed up?

    People have childhood memories of Peter rabbit and Bambi.




    --
    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
    that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

    Jonathan Swift.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 12:20:52 2024
    On 04/12/2024 09:25, D wrote:

    I shot one with a .22 air rifle.

    It didn't die. I tried to wring its neck.

    Too little energy I assume? Did you hit it dead center?

    I shot it in the head actually., It got stuck in a fence.

    The head came off, and it still didn't die.

    Surely it must have been only reflexes?

    *shrug*

    My late mother used to tell of her childhood experience when her mother
    cut the head of a chicken and it ran around in circles for a long time

    'headless chicken' syndrome....

    Eventually it died and I plucked it and emptied its insides and ate
    it. Quite good really.

    I can imagine!

    Mostly they use 12 gauge on them. That seems to kill them ouright

    I think you can buy small mines made specifically for birds! 😉

    Dunno about that.


    --
    “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
    and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
    Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
    one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

    Paul Krugman

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 12:18:37 2024
    On 04/12/2024 09:24, D wrote:
    Now, due to the Ukraine situation, I've twice seen fighter jets above my house.

    I live within nuclear blast range of *two* RAF/USAAF airbases. When I
    hear the rumble of jets and no corresponding ADSB transponders I know
    the middle east is in for a strike.

    Or if the tankers show up, and the SIGINT planes, that someone is
    peeping into Russia on behalf of Ukraine...

    And of course the Imperial war museums Spitfires and Hurricanes do test
    flights here all summer.

    Nothing to crash into or upon. Just farmland

    --
    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
    that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

    Jonathan Swift.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 12:21:42 2024
    On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
    They are very cute, but can be annoying!

    I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too
    close, Need cutting down.

    --
    If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
    ..I'd spend it on drink.

    Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 14:05:13 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 00:42, rbowman wrote:
    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on >>> the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0

    Ah. Celtic melodies - the basis for much of the USAs country music.


    https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure

    "Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans
    across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
    though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Due >> to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme in a >> diverse range of landscapes"

    Oh That stuff. Seen it a lot in wales. I wonder if the sheep eat it?


    I would imagine that plenty of herbs and stuff gets consumed together with
    the grass. I don't think they are too picky about their greens.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 14:07:11 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:35, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on >>>> the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0

    https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure

    "Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans
    across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
    though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Due >>> to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme in a >>> diverse range of landscapes"

    Thyme and rosemary are both excellent with lamb!

    Rosemary especially but I am not sure it grows wild much in the UK

    It is hardy when planted.


    Brings back memories. Lamb steak with crispy skin, then a nice layer of
    fat, and then tender and very tasty lamb meat. Add to that, gravy, peas,
    red cabbage and glazed potatoes.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 14:08:28 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:24, D wrote:
    Now, due to the Ukraine situation, I've twice seen fighter jets above my
    house.

    I live within nuclear blast range of *two* RAF/USAAF airbases. When I hear the rumble of jets and no corresponding ADSB transponders I know the middle east is in for a strike.

    Or if the tankers show up, and the SIGINT planes, that someone is peeping into Russia on behalf of Ukraine...

    And of course the Imperial war museums Spitfires and Hurricanes do test flights here all summer.

    Nothing to crash into or upon. Just farmland

    Sounds like you have the basis of a nice little intelligence-business
    there! ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 14:09:15 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
    They are very cute, but can be annoying!

    I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too close, Need cutting down.


    Do you live in a small house in the middle of nowhere, right next to a
    lake and/or river with plenty of salmon? Maybe I could buy your house? ;)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 14:25:23 2024
    On 04/12/2024 13:07, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:35, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:

    I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around
    freely on
    the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0

    https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure

    "Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans >>>> across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
    though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern
    Ireland. Due
    to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild
    thyme in a
    diverse range of landscapes"

    Thyme and rosemary are both excellent with lamb!

    Rosemary especially but I am not sure it grows wild much in the UK

    It is hardy when planted.


    Brings back memories. Lamb steak with crispy skin, then a nice layer of
    fat, and then tender and very tasty lamb meat. Add to that, gravy, peas,
    red cabbage and glazed potatoes.

    I only do spiced red cabbage and apple for pork, or turkey.
    And for lamb, garlicky potatoes au gratin dauphinoise. Mmm.


    Otherwise, I'll be round later :-)

    --
    Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
    But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 14:27:38 2024
    On 04/12/2024 13:07, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 10:10, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, Robert Riches wrote:


    About 45 years ago, while eating in the college dorm cafeteria, I
    noticed the piece of "chicken" on my plate was a little tougher
    and drier than most chicken, and the arrangement of the bones did
    not appear to be consistent with any piece of chicken I had ever
    seen.  I had eaten rabbit a few years earlier, when my uncle was
    raising them, so I started to suspect the "chicken" was really
    rabbit.  My suspicion was confirmed when I heard a girl shriek
    rather unhappily from a couple of tables away, "We're eating
    BUNNIES!"

    How strange! How come they didn't just say that todays special was
    rabbit? Or maybe there was an error somewhere with the delivery and
    some boxed got mixed up?

    People have childhood memories of Peter rabbit and Bambi.

    So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I
    do not understand them at all.

    People as children get to associate words, images ideas with emotions.

    So 'all snakes BAD!! RUN. Bambi CUTE - cuddle - don't eat.'

    Then when - or if - they grow up, they replace them with more
    sophisticated and rational judgements.

    --
    Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
    But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 14:29:11 2024
    On 04/12/2024 13:08, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:24, D wrote:
    Now, due to the Ukraine situation, I've twice seen fighter jets above
    my house.

    I live within nuclear blast range of *two* RAF/USAAF airbases. When I
    hear the rumble of jets and no corresponding ADSB transponders I know
    the middle east is in for a strike.

    Or if the tankers show up, and the SIGINT planes, that someone is
    peeping into Russia on behalf of Ukraine...

    And of course the Imperial war museums Spitfires and Hurricanes do
    test flights here all summer.

    Nothing to crash into or upon. Just farmland

    Sounds like you have the basis of a nice little intelligence-business
    there! ;)

    Damned if I am going to do Putin's work for him. Someone is flying
    drones over them already and then it all went quite.

    The USAAF, like God, likes to move in mysterious ways.

    Meet nice people off the bases sometimes.


    --
    “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

    —Soren Kierkegaard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 17:50:42 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 12:21:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
    They are very cute, but can be annoying!

    I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too
    close, Need cutting down.

    You're lucky. The magpues do a war dance on my roof mornings and cutting
    down trees is no defense against airborne forces. They also help
    themselves to the cat's food. Gotta get a bigger, meaner cat.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 17:44:14 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:05:13 +0100, D wrote:

    I would imagine that plenty of herbs and stuff gets consumed together
    with the grass. I don't think they are too picky about their greens.

    They can be. Leafy spurge is an invasive species and the land managers
    decided sheep grazing on the hillsides would be more ecologically friendly
    than herbicides. It was all very bucolic and even included a traditional
    sheep wagon. The sheep ate everything except leafy spurge. The area where
    they were penned for the night was eaten down to mineral soil and still
    hasn't recovered after 10 years.

    After the photo ops the sheep were removed and Tordon herbicide was
    applied. I don't know why but the sheep farmer switched to goats.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 17:57:23 2024
    On 2024-12-04, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:25, D wrote:

    The head came off, and it still didn't die.

    Surely it must have been only reflexes?

    *shrug*

    My late mother used to tell of her childhood experience when her mother
    cut the head of a chicken and it ran around in circles for a long time

    We raised chickens on a hobby farm when I was young, and I eventually
    grew to the point of doing the chopping myself. They do flail around
    for a while.

    'headless chicken' syndrome....

    I sometimes refer to management going into "decapitated fowl" mode.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Wed Dec 4 17:57:24 2024
    On 2024-12-04, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    When I was a kid there was a squirrel that came around at breakfast time
    looking for a handout. He would hang on the kitchen window screen and look >> in until he got his treat. It wasn't really animal abuse but I would give
    him bread with peanut butter. He enjoyed the peanut butter but it was
    amusing watching him trying to get it off the roof of his mouth.

    In todays youtube world, you could have been a millionaire with a video of that!

    We used to do that with our dog (the peanut butter, not the millions).

    Frisbeetarianism: the belief that when you die, your soul goes
    up on the roof and gets stuck.

    Peanut-Butter Frisbeetarianism: the belief that when you die,
    your soul goes up on the roof of your mouth and gets stuck.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Wed Dec 4 18:15:42 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 00:44:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species .......

    There was an attempt to reestablish the elk population in upstate New York which inadvertently introduced chronic wasting disease into the whitetail population. The jury is out on whether it's transmissible to humans.

    The bison in Yellowstone National Park are another source of controversy.
    The herds are infected with brucellosis and being wild tend to wander out
    of the park.

    https://thecounter.org/slaughtering-yellowstone-buffalo-brucellosis/

    Wolves, which are reintroducing themselves, are a source of controversy
    too. Lucky for the US wolves they don't have von der Leyden on their case.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 18:48:03 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 10:37:37 +0100, D wrote:


    Surely looks like good fishing on the web site! =) But maybe it is
    fishing only, and not eating them?

    Regardless positive that they decided to make a state park out of it!

    https://vp-mi.com/news/2020/dec/23/advisory-issued-avoid-eating-fish- section-clark-fo/

    It's complex. The park is at the confluence of the Blackfoot and Clark
    Fork. The Bitterroot confluence is about 5 miles downstream. Previously
    the guidance downstream of Missoula was to not eat pike and limit
    consumption of other species. The shutdown paper mill has settling ponds adjacent to the river and they're a new concern.

    Before the dam was removed there was an annual pickerel derby but even
    then the prevailing wisdom was to not eat the fish. Before the dam was
    removed the area was poisoned since they didn't want pickerel downstream.

    For context, the Blackfoot was the setting for the film 'A River Runs
    Through It', sort of. Like many movies the real Blackfoot isn't very
    accessible and it was filmed elsewhere and the trout were radio
    controlled. There are other geographic impossibilities but the movie was
    well received. Luckily the Blackfoot never had any mining or industry to pollute it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 18:55:56 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:09:48 +0100, D wrote:

    I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
    apparently, according to my father, it was awful.

    I made a batch of dandelion wine when I was a kid. It was pretty rough. We
    got cider from a local farmer who had rigged up a tractor driven chopper
    and had a old jackscrew press. Bring your own jugs. Unfiltered and unpasteurized it tended to self ferment into sparkling cider.

    During prohibition some of my family took a more professional approach
    although the final product was applejack rather than cider.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 19:02:46 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:07:42 +0100, D wrote:

    So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I
    do not understand them at all.

    I was able to compartmentalize as a kid. There was the friendly squirrel
    we fed and then there was his cousins out in the woods that fed us.

    Before my time but my parents raised a pig. Pig farming is one thing but raising one pig is something else since pigs are quite intelligent. The
    pig got butchered in the fall and eaten but the experiment wasn't
    repeated. They stuck to chickens.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 4 19:13:21 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 10:35:14 +0100, D wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:18:55 +0100, D wrote:

    This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country
    side house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or
    both. So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time
    to time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they
    are not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!

    That could be interesting. My father and I were rabbit hunting when a
    pheasant provided a target of opportunity. My father managed to knock
    the bird down and it landed in some brush about 50 yards away. The
    beagle ran over but after a brief scuffle the pheasant flew off and the
    beagle decided he wasn't a bird dog.


    Really?? Was that a very small beagle, or a very big bird? ;)

    Well, he was a 13" beagle which is the US designation for the smaller end
    of the scale and a pissed off ring neck wasn't quite what he expected to
    find in the brush. Rabbits run away and don't fight back.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 21:47:48 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 13:07, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 10:10, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, Robert Riches wrote:


    About 45 years ago, while eating in the college dorm cafeteria, I
    noticed the piece of "chicken" on my plate was a little tougher
    and drier than most chicken, and the arrangement of the bones did
    not appear to be consistent with any piece of chicken I had ever
    seen.  I had eaten rabbit a few years earlier, when my uncle was
    raising them, so I started to suspect the "chicken" was really
    rabbit.  My suspicion was confirmed when I heard a girl shriek
    rather unhappily from a couple of tables away, "We're eating
    BUNNIES!"

    How strange! How come they didn't just say that todays special was
    rabbit? Or maybe there was an error somewhere with the delivery and some >>>> boxed got mixed up?

    People have childhood memories of Peter rabbit and Bambi.

    So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I do >> not understand them at all.

    People as children get to associate words, images ideas with emotions.

    So 'all snakes BAD!! RUN. Bambi CUTE - cuddle - don't eat.'

    Then when - or if - they grow up, they replace them with more sophisticated and rational judgements.


    Yes, I guess the "if" is key here. ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 21:49:26 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 13:08, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:24, D wrote:
    Now, due to the Ukraine situation, I've twice seen fighter jets above my >>>> house.

    I live within nuclear blast range of *two* RAF/USAAF airbases. When I hear >>> the rumble of jets and no corresponding ADSB transponders I know the
    middle east is in for a strike.

    Or if the tankers show up, and the SIGINT planes, that someone is peeping >>> into Russia on behalf of Ukraine...

    And of course the Imperial war museums Spitfires and Hurricanes do test
    flights here all summer.

    Nothing to crash into or upon. Just farmland

    Sounds like you have the basis of a nice little intelligence-business
    there! ;)

    Damned if I am going to do Putin's work for him. Someone is flying drones over them already and then it all went quite.

    The USAAF, like God, likes to move in mysterious ways.

    Meet nice people off the bases sometimes.

    That reminds me of when there was some Nato event in Stockholm and a small
    US aircraft carrier was parked in the middle of the city. I was walking
    along the water and 3 young boys, with short hair cuts came along
    screaming in american english.

    I asked them "so how was the trip on the boat"?

    One of them said, how did you know that?!?!

    While the other said... hush, you're not supposed to say that!

    I was just laughing and went on my way.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 4 21:50:40 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 13:09, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
    They are very cute, but can be annoying!

    I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too close, >>> Need cutting down.


    Do you live in a small house in the middle of nowhere, right next to a lake >> and/or river with plenty of salmon? Maybe I could buy your house? ;)

    http://www.larksrise.com


    It's enormous! Are you some kind of older english lord?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 21:52:51 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:05:13 +0100, D wrote:

    I would imagine that plenty of herbs and stuff gets consumed together
    with the grass. I don't think they are too picky about their greens.

    They can be. Leafy spurge is an invasive species and the land managers decided sheep grazing on the hillsides would be more ecologically friendly than herbicides. It was all very bucolic and even included a traditional sheep wagon. The sheep ate everything except leafy spurge. The area where they were penned for the night was eaten down to mineral soil and still hasn't recovered after 10 years.

    After the photo ops the sheep were removed and Tordon herbicide was
    applied. I don't know why but the sheep farmer switched to goats.


    Fascinating! Had no idea they were picky eaters! Maybe the goats were less picky?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to John Ames on Wed Dec 4 21:52:00 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:12:25 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    Bear ... it's really kinda yuk.

    I never had bear myself, but my father once had it in Helsinki in a
    russian restaurant. Apparently he thought it was quite alright,
    although not something he was dreaming about afterwards.

    I've heard it's greatly dependent on what the bear in question has been living off of - wild fruit and game, great, camper trash cans, not so
    much. The one time I've had it, it was like very rich beef.


    I had whale in iceland. It was like a juicy, tender steak. Very, very
    good! I wonder if I can get bear somewhere where I am at the moment? Maybe
    I can find a russian restaurant, but my wife would refuse to go, so maybe
    not so smart after all. =/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 21:53:52 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 12:21:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
    They are very cute, but can be annoying!

    I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too
    close, Need cutting down.

    You're lucky. The magpues do a war dance on my roof mornings and cutting
    down trees is no defense against airborne forces. They also help
    themselves to the cat's food. Gotta get a bigger, meaner cat.


    Try lynx or a mountain lion! ;) I read somewhere that having a lynx as a
    pet is very popular among russian millionaires to show of their statys.
    Have no idea if there is any truth to that though.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 21:55:34 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 00:44:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species .......

    There was an attempt to reestablish the elk population in upstate New York which inadvertently introduced chronic wasting disease into the whitetail population. The jury is out on whether it's transmissible to humans.

    The bison in Yellowstone National Park are another source of controversy.
    The herds are infected with brucellosis and being wild tend to wander out
    of the park.

    https://thecounter.org/slaughtering-yellowstone-buffalo-brucellosis/

    Wolves, which are reintroducing themselves, are a source of controversy
    too. Lucky for the US wolves they don't have von der Leyden on their case.

    Ahh... a wolf eating her pony, that brings joy and laughter to my life!
    Before that, oh so noble minded and eco-fascist, and when nature knocked
    on the door, it was full nazi mode. =D

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 21:56:45 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 10:37:37 +0100, D wrote:


    Surely looks like good fishing on the web site! =) But maybe it is
    fishing only, and not eating them?

    Regardless positive that they decided to make a state park out of it!

    https://vp-mi.com/news/2020/dec/23/advisory-issued-avoid-eating-fish- section-clark-fo/

    It's complex. The park is at the confluence of the Blackfoot and Clark
    Fork. The Bitterroot confluence is about 5 miles downstream. Previously
    the guidance downstream of Missoula was to not eat pike and limit
    consumption of other species. The shutdown paper mill has settling ponds adjacent to the river and they're a new concern.

    Before the dam was removed there was an annual pickerel derby but even
    then the prevailing wisdom was to not eat the fish. Before the dam was removed the area was poisoned since they didn't want pickerel downstream.

    For context, the Blackfoot was the setting for the film 'A River Runs
    Through It', sort of. Like many movies the real Blackfoot isn't very accessible and it was filmed elsewhere and the trout were radio
    controlled. There are other geographic impossibilities but the movie was
    well received. Luckily the Blackfoot never had any mining or industry to pollute it.


    Hmm, sad about that fish. =(

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 21:59:00 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:09:48 +0100, D wrote:

    I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
    apparently, according to my father, it was awful.

    I made a batch of dandelion wine when I was a kid. It was pretty rough. We got cider from a local farmer who had rigged up a tractor driven chopper
    and had a old jackscrew press. Bring your own jugs. Unfiltered and unpasteurized it tended to self ferment into sparkling cider.

    During prohibition some of my family took a more professional approach although the final product was applejack rather than cider.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)

    Never heard of, but sounds similar to Calvados. Would you say it is
    similar?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 22:00:14 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:07:42 +0100, D wrote:

    So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I
    do not understand them at all.

    I was able to compartmentalize as a kid. There was the friendly squirrel
    we fed and then there was his cousins out in the woods that fed us.

    Before my time but my parents raised a pig. Pig farming is one thing but raising one pig is something else since pigs are quite intelligent. The
    pig got butchered in the fall and eaten but the experiment wasn't
    repeated. They stuck to chickens.

    Yes, I imagine the more intelligent they are, and the fewer they are, the stronger connection you build, and the less tasty the food.

    Reminds me of the old Simpsons episode when Homer raises a small lobster
    only to consume it while crying.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 4 22:01:30 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 10:35:14 +0100, D wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:18:55 +0100, D wrote:

    This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country
    side house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or
    both. So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time >>>> to time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they
    are not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!

    That could be interesting. My father and I were rabbit hunting when a
    pheasant provided a target of opportunity. My father managed to knock
    the bird down and it landed in some brush about 50 yards away. The
    beagle ran over but after a brief scuffle the pheasant flew off and the
    beagle decided he wasn't a bird dog.


    Really?? Was that a very small beagle, or a very big bird? ;)

    Well, he was a 13" beagle which is the US designation for the smaller end
    of the scale and a pissed off ring neck wasn't quite what he expected to
    find in the brush. Rabbits run away and don't fight back.


    Sounds nasty! But the fight or flight reflex is quite real.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 00:35:02 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 21:59:00 +0100, D wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:09:48 +0100, D wrote:

    I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
    apparently, according to my father, it was awful.

    I made a batch of dandelion wine when I was a kid. It was pretty rough.
    We got cider from a local farmer who had rigged up a tractor driven
    chopper and had a old jackscrew press. Bring your own jugs. Unfiltered
    and unpasteurized it tended to self ferment into sparkling cider.

    During prohibition some of my family took a more professional approach
    although the final product was applejack rather than cider.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)

    Never heard of, but sounds similar to Calvados. Would you say it is
    similar?

    No idea, never having had Calvados. I had commercial applejack years ago
    and iirc it wouldn't be recognized as an apple product in a blind taste
    test.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 01:18:51 2024
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 21:52:51 +0100, D wrote:

    Fascinating! Had no idea they were picky eaters! Maybe the goats were
    less picky?

    They will eat spurge if they run out of more palatable food. Some have
    reported success.

    https://www.realagriculture.com/2018/03/controlling-leafy-spurge-one- flock-at-a-time/

    I don't know the full story. They did it for a few years but when the
    sheep went home signs would go up along the trails saying they were going
    to treat the area with herbicide.

    The idea wasn't all that popular with hikers. Dogs were banned both to
    prevent them harassing the sheep and to reduce conflicts with the
    sheepdogs. The sheepdogs were even aggressive to humans. They never tried
    to bite me but they gave the impression I wasn't welcome.

    The goats were never used on the mountain. I go past the farm on my way to
    work and noticed it switched from sheep to goats and a lonesome looking
    yak. Quite a few sheep operations have shut down. Lamb has went out of
    favor and much of what is available comes from New Zealand. I don't know
    how profitable wool production is either.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Dec 5 01:03:09 2024
    On 12/3/24 2:26 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 23:58:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/1/24 4:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
    well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is
    smaller/faster ... but what do you lose ?

    https://dev.to/emiliosp/nodejs-vs-apache-performance-battle-for-the-
    conquest-of-my-5c4n

    I haven't noticed that I lost anything using node.js. nginx is also
    taking market share from Apache.


    The alts ARE getting much better. Didn't start out like that however.

    No, but that was then. This is now. Like Windows 10 older technology
    doesn't go away peacefully but getting stuck in the past isn't a good
    career move, not that it matters to me anymore.

    Nor me.

    I kinda know how Apache thinks, what goes in which
    config files / folders. That is uses "more memory"
    really isn't much of a thing anymore since even
    my Pi's have many gigabytes.

    I will agree that active developers, esp for what
    are anticipated to be 'high volume' systems, do
    still need to think a bit about 'efficiency'.

    The alts ... at least early on they may have been
    smaller/quicker but also didn't have the flexibility
    or security of Apache. As said, this situation has
    improved so there ARE real alts worth considering.

    And hey - we may see an "Apache 3" that fixes up
    some of the annoying stuff :-)

    Ever seen a respectable Apache config GUI app ???
    Hell, even getting https properly installed using
    naught but nano is a pain in the ass. The OpenSuse
    config pgm Yast2 (or text based Yast) are 'smart'
    about stuff and give useful suggestions and can
    even do multi-file configs automatically. Consult
    the suggestions, check a few boxes ... saves like
    an hour. Ever set up RAID The Hard Way ? With Yast
    it's literally a minute or two and it'll do a good
    guess at the opt flags and such needed for what
    you're setting up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 01:37:58 2024
    On 12/4/24 3:52 PM, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:12:25 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

     Bear ... it's really kinda yuk.

    I never had bear myself, but my father once had it in Helsinki in a
    russian restaurant. Apparently he thought it was quite alright,
    although not something he was dreaming about afterwards.

    I've heard it's greatly dependent on what the bear in question has been
    living off of - wild fruit and game, great, camper trash cans, not so
    much. The one time I've had it, it was like very rich beef.


    I had whale in iceland. It was like a juicy, tender steak. Very, very
    good! I wonder if I can get bear somewhere where I am at the moment?
    Maybe I can find a russian restaurant, but my wife would refuse to go,
    so maybe not so smart after all. =/

    Whale ? SHAME !!! :-)

    Japan alone is driving their extinction, TOO tasty !

    Too bright to eat IMHO ... feel more "moral" with
    something more stupid.

    They ARE related to pigs, which surely contributes
    to the taste.

    As for bear ... it CAN be had sometimes in the
    American west. Wyoming, Montana, that general
    area. They are hunted, but not all so much by
    and large, so it's a matter of lucky timing.

    There's also alligator in the south - surprisingly
    like chicken if cooked properly. When did reptiles
    diverge from dinos/birds ???

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 01:28:57 2024
    On 12/4/24 5:12 AM, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/3/24 4:13 AM, D wrote:


    On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/2/24 9:02 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. >>>>>>>>>> Or curry the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back >>>>>>>>>> yard eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking >>>>>>>>> upon. The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and >>>>>>>>> we'll see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not >>>>>>>>> good enough to get me to enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it >>>>>>>> to be more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from
    reptiles - 'tastes like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald
    Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for >>>>>>> this group could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell
    chicken:ish, protein at very good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared
    with snake protein.

    In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns' >>>>>>
    Edible if you wanted.

    Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of
    locusts which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of
    protein there, just for the taking!


     Yea ... if you're down with locusts  :-)

     There IS a vocal segment that basically want to FORCE
     everybody to eat insects almost entirely as "meat".

    This is not good. I have nothing against the free and voluntary
    consumption of insects. If you're into it, be my guest! I am against
    forced consumption. But, given the amount of famine and starving
    children in africa, it would be interested to see if something could
    be done with the locust swarms to get cheap protein for the people.

    If I did not have food, I'd welcome insect food over nothing at all.
    In fact I've had grass hopper (deep fried) and it was actually quite
    good. I also had scorpion when I went to china once, and it tasted
    like a crunchy shrimp.

     Sorry, I like my meat to have had a moo or cluck or
     squeal .......

     Oh, avoid deer/moose meat now ... there's a lot of
     something like Mad Cow prion going around. NO cure
     for that. Bear meat - only WELL done as they tend
     to be full of parasites (bear meat isn't that good
     anyway).

    In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only
    thing you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a
    plluted lake. That is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central
    stockholm where for many decades heavy industry poured out its filth
    into the water.

    It's improving, but still not good enough. If you're 30 minutes away
    by boat from the center, then you can start to eat an occasional fish
    or two.


     The prion problem seems localized to north America
     at the moment. You're probably OK in Sweden, for now.

     Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around
     species .......

     Bear ... it's really kinda yuk.

    I never had bear myself, but my father once had it in Helsinki in a
    russian restaurant. Apparently he thought it was quite alright, although
    not something he was dreaming about afterwards.

    I'd suggest sticking to herbivores rather than
    carnivores/omnivores. You could live on bear,
    but you'd dream of beef, lamb, chicken ......

     Wild boar, anywhere, STILL tend to carry nasty
     parasites. Always cook well-done.

    Wild boar is very tasty! I had bbq:d smoked boar two years ago, and it
    was amazing!

    Oh, it IS tasty ! But still - COOK IT WELL !!!
    There were REASONS some of the old religions
    forbade pork.

    Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for
    boar in dense brush ... strong enough and easy
    to whip around real quick. The boar hunts YOU
    as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers
    a .50 S&W carbine/handgun combo now, but only
    use the handgun if you want fused wrists in
    yer old age :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 01:42:48 2024
    On 12/4/24 3:55 PM, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 00:44:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species ....... >>
    There was an attempt to reestablish the elk population in upstate New
    York
    which inadvertently introduced chronic wasting disease into the whitetail
    population. The jury is out on whether it's transmissible to humans.

    The bison in Yellowstone National Park are another source of controversy.
    The herds are infected with brucellosis and being wild tend to wander out
    of the park.

    https://thecounter.org/slaughtering-yellowstone-buffalo-brucellosis/

    Wolves, which are reintroducing themselves, are a source of controversy
    too. Lucky for the US wolves they don't have von der Leyden on their
    case.

    Ahh... a wolf eating her pony, that brings joy and laughter to my life! Before that, oh so noble minded and eco-fascist, and when nature knocked
    on the door, it was full nazi mode. =D

    Repopulating wolves was a MISTAKE in my opinion.
    All the old stories, they weren't wrong. Humans
    are easy to hunt/kill for wolves.

    The farmers/herdsmen SHOOT the things on sight even
    now ... just don't TELL anybody.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 01:51:34 2024
    On 12/4/24 4:00 PM, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:07:42 +0100, D wrote:

    So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I
    do not understand them at all.

    I was able to compartmentalize as a kid. There was the friendly squirrel
    we fed and then there was his cousins out in the woods that fed us.

    Before my time but my parents raised a pig. Pig farming is one thing but
    raising one pig is something else since pigs are quite intelligent. The
    pig got butchered in the fall and eaten but the experiment wasn't
    repeated. They stuck to chickens.

    Yes, I imagine the more intelligent they are, and the fewer they are,
    the stronger connection you build, and the less tasty the food.

    Reminds me of the old Simpsons episode when Homer raises a small lobster
    only to consume it while crying.


    Yep - we can mentally split such things. Pet calf -vs-
    Big Mac ... entirely different even while not being
    so different :-)

    Kinda how we treat US and THEM too ... nothing is too
    bad for The Enemy, for THEM ...

    Maybe that's why our subspecies wound up the ONLY one,
    seriously weird and hostile and LOVES cognitive dissonance :-)

    Ah, the poor Neanderthals. Never stood a chance.

    "Six impossible things before breakfast ..."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Dec 5 07:27:44 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:42:48 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    The farmers/herdsmen SHOOT the things on sight even now ... just
    don't TELL anybody.

    The acronym here is SSS. Shoot, shovel, and shut up.

    https://assayjournal.wordpress.com/2016/11/28/jennifer-london-on-the-nine- mile-wolves-by-rick-bass/

    I worked at the Ninemile Ranger Station in '89 and '90 when the wolves
    showed up. It was a pack that drifted down from Canada not a planned reintroduction. They ate a couple of llamas, no big lost. Llamas don't
    belong here; wolves do.

    There's a fund to reimburse ranchers for wolf kills but some people are
    just itching to shoot a wolf. A few years back a couple of guys shot an
    elk, It was late and they were tired so they decided to return the next
    day to butcher it. The wolves had other ideas.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Dec 5 07:16:49 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:37:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    As for bear ... it CAN be had sometimes in the American west.
    Wyoming, Montana, that general area. They are hunted, but not all so
    much by and large, so it's a matter of lucky timing.

    There are bear seasons in the fall and spring. I don't know anyone
    personally who hunts bear.

    https://www.swanmountainoutfitters.com/trip/montana-black-bear-hunts/

    Only $5000 per person for the 6 day Cast & Blast special. At least it's
    fair chase. Some areas use hounds in the spring. Most of the nimrods
    aren't hunting for the meat they just want to kill a bear. Personally I
    root for the bears.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Dec 5 07:34:17 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:28:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush
    ... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar hunts
    YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
    carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want fused
    wrists in yer old age

    A friend bought a .454 Casull which was the big dog at the time. He was
    pissed when S&W upped the ante. I draw the line at .357 and even then for target practice I load closer to .38 Special specs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Dec 5 07:50:54 2024
    On 04/12/2024 18:15, rbowman wrote:
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 00:44:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species .......

    There was an attempt to reestablish the elk population in upstate New York which inadvertently introduced chronic wasting disease into the whitetail population. The jury is out on whether it's transmissible to humans.

    The bison in Yellowstone National Park are another source of controversy.
    The herds are infected with brucellosis and being wild tend to wander out
    of the park.

    https://thecounter.org/slaughtering-yellowstone-buffalo-brucellosis/

    Wolves, which are reintroducing themselves, are a source of controversy
    too. Lucky for the US wolves they don't have von der Leyden on their case.

    Vonda Liar used to be a punk, back in the day.

    --
    Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
    guns, why should we let them have ideas?

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Dec 5 07:55:41 2024
    On 04/12/2024 18:55, rbowman wrote:
    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:09:48 +0100, D wrote:

    I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
    apparently, according to my father, it was awful.

    I made a batch of dandelion wine when I was a kid. It was pretty rough. We got cider from a local farmer who had rigged up a tractor driven chopper
    and had a old jackscrew press. Bring your own jugs. Unfiltered and unpasteurized it tended to self ferment into sparkling cider.

    And if you leave it open, into cider vinegar of excellent quality

    During prohibition some of my family took a more professional approach although the final product was applejack rather than cider.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)


    --
    Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
    doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
    don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 07:57:43 2024
    On 04/12/2024 20:50, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 13:09, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
    They are very cute, but can be annoying!

    I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too
    close, Need cutting down.


    Do you live in a small house in the middle of nowhere, right next to
    a lake and/or river with plenty of salmon? Maybe I could buy your
    house? ;)

    http://www.larksrise.com


    It's enormous! Are you some kind of older english lord?

    No. I built it in 2000


    --
    Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
    doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
    don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Dec 5 10:24:21 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 21:52:51 +0100, D wrote:

    Fascinating! Had no idea they were picky eaters! Maybe the goats were
    less picky?

    They will eat spurge if they run out of more palatable food. Some have reported success.

    https://www.realagriculture.com/2018/03/controlling-leafy-spurge-one- flock-at-a-time/

    I don't know the full story. They did it for a few years but when the
    sheep went home signs would go up along the trails saying they were going
    to treat the area with herbicide.

    The idea wasn't all that popular with hikers. Dogs were banned both to prevent them harassing the sheep and to reduce conflicts with the
    sheepdogs. The sheepdogs were even aggressive to humans. They never tried
    to bite me but they gave the impression I wasn't welcome.

    The goats were never used on the mountain. I go past the farm on my way to work and noticed it switched from sheep to goats and a lonesome looking
    yak. Quite a few sheep operations have shut down. Lamb has went out of
    favor and much of what is available comes from New Zealand. I don't know
    how profitable wool production is either.


    Well one thing is sure, it's not easy to be a farmer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Dec 5 10:22:53 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 21:59:00 +0100, D wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:09:48 +0100, D wrote:

    I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
    apparently, according to my father, it was awful.

    I made a batch of dandelion wine when I was a kid. It was pretty rough.
    We got cider from a local farmer who had rigged up a tractor driven
    chopper and had a old jackscrew press. Bring your own jugs. Unfiltered
    and unpasteurized it tended to self ferment into sparkling cider.

    During prohibition some of my family took a more professional approach
    although the final product was applejack rather than cider.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)

    Never heard of, but sounds similar to Calvados. Would you say it is
    similar?

    No idea, never having had Calvados. I had commercial applejack years ago
    and iirc it wouldn't be recognized as an apple product in a blind taste
    test.


    Hmm, I wonder if it is difficult to make? My wifes father has about 15
    apple trees or so in the country side and gets more apples than he can
    deal with.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 10:25:29 2024
    the suggestions, check a few boxes ... saves like
    an hour. Ever set up RAID The Hard Way ? With Yast

    Yast? Are you another opensuse user? I thought I was the only one!

    it's literally a minute or two and it'll do a good
    guess at the opt flags and such needed for what
    you're setting up.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Dec 5 10:29:17 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I wonder if I can get bear somewhere where I am at the moment? Maybe I can >> find a russian restaurant, but my wife would refuse to go, so maybe not so >> smart after all. =/

    Whale ? SHAME !!! :-)

    No, no at all, it's our hate that makes us strong, as the emperor teaches us!

    Japan alone is driving their extinction, TOO tasty !

    Jokes aside, no extinction in sight. They are actually recovering. Icelanders and japanese, and faroese are bright enough to understand that overfishing leads
    to destruction of the business, so whale there is as ethical as it gets.

    Too bright to eat IMHO ... feel more "moral" with
    something more stupid.

    They ARE related to pigs, which surely contributes
    to the taste.

    Strange... by taste and look, I would have thought closer to a cow than a pig. Looks very similar to beef when cooked.

    As for bear ... it CAN be had sometimes in the
    American west. Wyoming, Montana, that general
    area. They are hunted, but not all so much by
    and large, so it's a matter of lucky timing.

    There's also alligator in the south - surprisingly
    like chicken if cooked properly. When did reptiles
    diverge from dinos/birds ???

    I had alligator and it's ok. I would like to try python, since I heard that this
    is the cheapest protein you can farm, with the exception of insects.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Dec 5 10:31:58 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/4/24 4:00 PM, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:07:42 +0100, D wrote:

    So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I >>>> do not understand them at all.

    I was able to compartmentalize as a kid. There was the friendly squirrel >>> we fed and then there was his cousins out in the woods that fed us.

    Before my time but my parents raised a pig. Pig farming is one thing but >>> raising one pig is something else since pigs are quite intelligent. The
    pig got butchered in the fall and eaten but the experiment wasn't
    repeated. They stuck to chickens.

    Yes, I imagine the more intelligent they are, and the fewer they are, the
    stronger connection you build, and the less tasty the food.

    Reminds me of the old Simpsons episode when Homer raises a small lobster
    only to consume it while crying.


    Yep - we can mentally split such things. Pet calf -vs-
    Big Mac ... entirely different even while not being
    so different :-)

    Kinda how we treat US and THEM too ... nothing is too
    bad for The Enemy, for THEM ...

    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet
    for all that aggression.

    Maybe that's why our subspecies wound up the ONLY one,
    seriously weird and hostile and LOVES cognitive dissonance :-)

    Ah, the poor Neanderthals. Never stood a chance.

    "Six impossible things before breakfast ..."


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Dec 5 10:30:10 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/4/24 3:55 PM, D wrote:


    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 00:44:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species ....... >>>
    There was an attempt to reestablish the elk population in upstate New York >>> which inadvertently introduced chronic wasting disease into the whitetail >>> population. The jury is out on whether it's transmissible to humans.

    The bison in Yellowstone National Park are another source of controversy. >>> The herds are infected with brucellosis and being wild tend to wander out >>> of the park.

    https://thecounter.org/slaughtering-yellowstone-buffalo-brucellosis/

    Wolves, which are reintroducing themselves, are a source of controversy
    too. Lucky for the US wolves they don't have von der Leyden on their case. >>
    Ahh... a wolf eating her pony, that brings joy and laughter to my life!
    Before that, oh so noble minded and eco-fascist, and when nature knocked on >> the door, it was full nazi mode. =D

    Repopulating wolves was a MISTAKE in my opinion.
    All the old stories, they weren't wrong. Humans
    are easy to hunt/kill for wolves.

    The farmers/herdsmen SHOOT the things on sight even
    now ... just don't TELL anybody.


    I think sweden decided to reduce the population from 170 to 120 in 2025.
    Only eco-fascists care. No one else does.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 09:36:35 2024
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet
    for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them


    --
    To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Dec 5 13:17:38 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet
    for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
    creative and destructive energies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Dec 5 20:49:23 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:03:09 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I kinda know how Apache thinks, what goes in which config files /
    folders.

    Apache conceptually only has a single config file. Everything else is
    (directly or indirectly) included from that file.

    Yes, I was using Apache back when distros shipped it with everything in a single config file.

    The common layout nowadays is not hard to get to grips with: put each
    virtual site into its own config file, and use macros and your own
    includes to avoid repeated cut/paste of the same boilerplate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 21:19:21 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 10:22:53 +0100, D wrote:

    Hmm, I wonder if it is difficult to make? My wifes father has about 15
    apple trees or so in the country side and gets more apples than he can
    deal with.

    https://www.instructables.com/How-to-make-cider/

    That would work for small quantities. The person we got cider from had a
    hopper that fed the apples into a drum with screws sticking out and used
    the tractor PTO to run the drum but he was large scale. The press was essentially the same but larger with a jackscrew rather than a hydraulic
    jack.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pH@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Fri Dec 6 03:29:11 2024
    On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry >>>>>> the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating >>>>>> worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The >>>>> wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it >>>>> compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to >>>>> enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be >>>> more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes >>>> like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
    protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could >>> be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very
    good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with snake >>> protein.

    In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'

    Edible if you wanted.

    Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
    which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just
    for the taking!

    I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that
    there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
    'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.

    I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.

    This being Usenet I'm sure someone will set me straight if I'm way off base!

    pH in Aptos






    Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same money >>>> you could find a better bird to eat.

    Duck should be possible to obtain here. I like duck!

    The pie idea is good though!

    Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
    Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.

    Amen!

    Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.

    However some foods are so shit that nothing works.

    There is another method where you make the shit taste shittier, and thereby >>> the shit cancels out resulting in a less shittier final result!




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  • From Robert Riches@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 6 04:02:31 2024
    On 2024-12-05, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:37:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    As for bear ... it CAN be had sometimes in the American west.
    Wyoming, Montana, that general area. They are hunted, but not all so
    much by and large, so it's a matter of lucky timing.

    There are bear seasons in the fall and spring. I don't know anyone
    personally who hunts bear.

    https://www.swanmountainoutfitters.com/trip/montana-black-bear-hunts/

    Only $5000 per person for the 6 day Cast & Blast special. At least it's
    fair chase. Some areas use hounds in the spring. Most of the nimrods
    aren't hunting for the meat they just want to kill a bear. Personally I
    root for the bears.

    Interesting coincidence that discussion about hunting bears is
    going on when this news story breaks:

    https://notthebee.com/article/bear-invades-japanese-grocery-store-drives-out-employees-and-lives-the-best-two-days-of-its-life

    --
    Robert Riches
    spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
    (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 05:25:44 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 03:29:11 -0000 (UTC), pH wrote:

    I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the 'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.

    I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.

    Probably for some people. Personally I'm a little weird and I eat the
    tails on fried shrimp and shrimp cocktails. Maybe I have some sort of
    dietary deficiency but I'm fairly sure I could handle cricket flour.

    I don't know if it's still around but Reese was a company that sold cans
    of weird stuff including fried grasshoppers, whale, and chocolate covered
    bees. The grasshoppers weren't bad.

    Trivia: Many of the Indian tribes ate grasshoppers. They approached it
    with great efficiency and set fire to the fields. The fire got rid of the
    legs and wings, producing roasted hoppers.

    I don't know if they were as prevalent before wheat farming but the
    Carolina hoppers are big.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissosteira_carolina

    I had to roll the windows up on the pickup while driving past wheat fields after the harvest because the cab was filling up with the damn things.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Robert Riches on Fri Dec 6 05:39:09 2024
    On 6 Dec 2024 04:02:31 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

    Interesting coincidence that discussion about hunting bears is going on
    when this news story breaks:

    https://notthebee.com/article/bear-invades-japanese-grocery-store-
    drives-out-employees-and-lives-the-best-two-days-of-its-life


    https://www.poachingfacts.com/faces-of-the-poachers/buyers-of-bear-parts/

    Good money in bear parts. The grocery store might have come out ahead if
    they parted out Yogi.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 01:13:40 2024
    On 12/5/24 4:25 AM, D wrote:


     the suggestions, check a few boxes ... saves like
     an hour. Ever set up RAID The Hard Way ? With Yast

    Yast? Are you another opensuse user? I thought I was the only one!

    USED to be my fave from LONG back. Found a distro
    in WalMart of all places. Had used Red Hat, but
    SUSE (now OpenSUSE) had many advanced tools that
    made the long and tedious NOT so long and tedious.

    Alas after IBM and RH ... that whole group of
    derivs ... you're kinda reduced to their beta
    testers now. SO sad.

    Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
    a bunch of Canonical rejects .....

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK.
    The Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never
    a fan of Slack, but, who knows ...... gotta keep
    evading suckitude.

    Oh, DID get Tumbleweed to run on a Pi-4 ... and
    it all worked. Alas it's a medium/large distro
    so things were a bit clunky at times.


     it's literally a minute or two and it'll do a good
     guess at the opt flags and such needed for what
     you're setting up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 6 01:40:20 2024
    On 12/5/24 2:27 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:42:48 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    The farmers/herdsmen SHOOT the things on sight even now ... just
    don't TELL anybody.

    The acronym here is SSS. Shoot, shovel, and shut up.

    Yep.

    The alt would be to crate 'em and drop 'em in
    the Greenie's neck of the woods. Opinions
    would suddenly change :-)


    https://assayjournal.wordpress.com/2016/11/28/jennifer-london-on-the-nine- mile-wolves-by-rick-bass/

    I worked at the Ninemile Ranger Station in '89 and '90 when the wolves
    showed up. It was a pack that drifted down from Canada not a planned reintroduction. They ate a couple of llamas, no big lost. Llamas don't
    belong here; wolves do.

    DID.

    Sorry, we can't put up with them any more.

    And they'll eat yer kiddies even faster than
    any llama ....

    There's a fund to reimburse ranchers for wolf kills but some people are
    just itching to shoot a wolf. A few years back a couple of guys shot an
    elk, It was late and they were tired so they decided to return the next
    day to butcher it. The wolves had other ideas.

    Wolves will hunt OR scavenge - whatever works.

    They're big, strong, smart - and very good at
    organizing pack attacks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 6 01:48:53 2024
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
    entirely our own inventions.

    And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

    Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 01:51:32 2024
    On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say creative and destructive energies.

    To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'

    WE make of it all as we will.

    Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 6 01:31:24 2024
    On 12/5/24 2:34 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:28:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush
    ... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar hunts
    YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
    carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want fused
    wrists in yer old age

    A friend bought a .454 Casull which was the big dog at the time. He was pissed when S&W upped the ante. I draw the line at .357 and even then for target practice I load closer to .38 Special specs.

    .38 +P is about all ya need for general/defense work.
    Just generally go for the lighter bullets, not the
    traditional 158s. Fer sure those old "police loads"
    did NOT impress.

    NOT sure I'd like .357 for wild boar. It'd take TOO
    perfect a hit. The .44 gives you a little slack.

    I've fired a .454 ... and decided I didn't want to
    fire one anymore. The .50 ... nah ! MAYbe for extra
    large people. There's some point in there where you
    go for a carbine/rifle.

    Hmmmmmm ... if you necked-down the .50 to 10mm - a
    sort of modernized 44/40. Might make a really good
    revolver/carbine combo.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 6 08:00:07 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:40:20 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    And they'll eat yer kiddies even faster than any llama ....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America

    South Dakota's governor shoots dogs; ours shoots wolves.

    https://gizmodo.com/montanas-governor-killed-a-yellowstone-wolf-1846539341

    Mountain lions are a bigger problem.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

    Despite them being more common than wolves the last fata attack in this
    state was in '89.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 6 07:43:49 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
    Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
    who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    I've got Fedora 40 on one machine. Not bad but it updates frequently
    compared to Ubuntu or Debian.

    Debian us on my work machine. I wanted stability, not cutting edge.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 6 07:46:09 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:48:53 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
    entirely our own inventions.

    And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

    Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    Beyond good and evil...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 6 09:56:27 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 10:22:53 +0100, D wrote:

    Hmm, I wonder if it is difficult to make? My wifes father has about 15
    apple trees or so in the country side and gets more apples than he can
    deal with.

    https://www.instructables.com/How-to-make-cider/

    That would work for small quantities. The person we got cider from had a hopper that fed the apples into a drum with screws sticking out and used
    the tractor PTO to run the drum but he was large scale. The press was essentially the same but larger with a jackscrew rather than a hydraulic jack.


    Interesting! That could be a project for next summer. On the other hand,
    for every liter of cider, I'd be giving up a liter of apple juice in the morning. =/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 6 10:00:47 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 03:29:11 -0000 (UTC), pH wrote:

    I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that
    there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
    'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.

    I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.

    Probably for some people. Personally I'm a little weird and I eat the
    tails on fried shrimp and shrimp cocktails. Maybe I have some sort of
    dietary deficiency but I'm fairly sure I could handle cricket flour.

    I don't know if it's still around but Reese was a company that sold cans
    of weird stuff including fried grasshoppers, whale, and chocolate covered bees. The grasshoppers weren't bad.

    Trivia: Many of the Indian tribes ate grasshoppers. They approached it
    with great efficiency and set fire to the fields. The fire got rid of the legs and wings, producing roasted hoppers.

    Interesting! Nothing new under the sun! But somewhere there is a problem
    or else there would be abundant grasshopper protein companies.

    I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
    substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.

    Or maybe it is just culture, and they foresee it as being very difficult
    to persude the consumer to try it.

    I don't know if they were as prevalent before wheat farming but the
    Carolina hoppers are big.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissosteira_carolina

    I had to roll the windows up on the pickup while driving past wheat fields after the harvest because the cab was filling up with the damn things.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 09:58:11 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, pH wrote:

    On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:


    On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:


    On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry >>>>>>> the bugger.
    Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating
    worms and stuff. THEY have taste

    After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The >>>>>> wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it >>>>>> compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to >>>>>> enjoy chicken breast.

    I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be >>>>> more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes >>>>> like chicken'.

    I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could >>>> be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very >>>> good prices!

    Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with snake >>>> protein.

    In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'

    Edible if you wanted.

    Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
    which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just
    for the taking!

    I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the 'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.

    I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.

    This being Usenet I'm sure someone will set me straight if I'm way off base!

    pH in Aptos

    Wouldn't surprise me at all, but if that is only a problem with a minority
    of people, it could still be a thing. Imagine, prime african grasshopper
    steak! Hmm, or maybe that would be closer to bread? Or grasshopper burger?






    Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same money >>>>> you could find a better bird to eat.

    Duck should be possible to obtain here. I like duck!

    The pie idea is good though!

    Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
    Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.

    Amen!

    Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.

    However some foods are so shit that nothing works.

    There is another method where you make the shit taste shittier, and thereby
    the shit cancels out resulting in a less shittier final result!





    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 6 10:06:31 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 4:25 AM, D wrote:


     the suggestions, check a few boxes ... saves like
     an hour. Ever set up RAID The Hard Way ? With Yast

    Yast? Are you another opensuse user? I thought I was the only one!

    USED to be my fave from LONG back. Found a distro
    in WalMart of all places. Had used Red Hat, but
    SUSE (now OpenSUSE) had many advanced tools that
    made the long and tedious NOT so long and tedious.

    It's been rock solid for me for at least a decade. More probably. I had a consulting gig at a cloud company and I used opensuse. Never had any
    problem at all. The engineers all had ubuntu and had problems with the
    wifi all the time. Ubuntu does not seem very good.

    Alas after IBM and RH ... that whole group of
    derivs ... you're kinda reduced to their beta
    testers now. SO sad.

    This is not so good. I hope IBM won't kill redhat in the end.

    Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
    a bunch of Canonical rejects .....

    Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
    thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble musl
    will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about actually
    going back to some of my earliest experiments and try FreeBSD for day to
    day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I only need some basics,
    which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages, so if they fixed their
    wifi problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to run a small linux VM for a working wifi driver) it could definitely be a serious option. Oh, and that would mean it doesn't drain the battery as well. But let's see. I think I
    can stick with opensuse 15.6 for at least another 2-3 years, and then they might kill the project in favuor of some container based crap.

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK.
    The Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never
    a fan of Slack, but, who knows ...... gotta keep
    evading suckitude.

    Oh, DID get Tumbleweed to run on a Pi-4 ... and
    it all worked. Alas it's a medium/large distro
    so things were a bit clunky at times.


     it's literally a minute or two and it'll do a good
     guess at the opt flags and such needed for what
     you're setting up.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 6 10:09:11 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet >>> for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
    entirely our own inventions.

    And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

    Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...


    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
    theme. ;) But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world
    as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or
    false.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 6 10:12:16 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
    Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
    who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    Was my first distro too. After that, I can't remember if I went to
    Mandrake or if I had netbsd in between.

    I've got Fedora 40 on one machine. Not bad but it updates frequently
    compared to Ubuntu or Debian.

    Debian us on my work machine. I wanted stability, not cutting edge.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 6 10:11:06 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet >>>> for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
    creative and destructive energies.

    To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'

    WE make of it all as we will.

    Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...


    I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to
    disagree. I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate
    nature, laws and composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far science
    will take us. I lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive empiricism.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 6 13:09:34 2024
    On 06/12/2024 06:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 2:34 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:28:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

        Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush >>>     ... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar hunts >>>     YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
        carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want
    fused
        wrists in yer old age

    A friend bought a .454 Casull which was the big dog at the time. He was
    pissed when S&W upped the ante. I draw the line at .357 and even then for
    target practice I load closer to .38 Special specs.

      .38 +P is about all ya need for general/defense work.
      Just generally go for the lighter bullets, not the
      traditional 158s. Fer sure those old "police loads"
      did NOT impress.

      NOT sure I'd like .357 for wild boar. It'd take TOO
      perfect a hit. The .44 gives you a little slack.

      I've fired a .454 ... and decided I didn't want to
      fire one anymore. The .50 ... nah ! MAYbe for extra
      large people. There's some point in there where you
      go for a carbine/rifle.

      Hmmmmmm ... if you necked-down the .50 to 10mm - a
      sort of modernized 44/40. Might make a really good
      revolver/carbine combo.

    Interestingly in the UK we cannot use handguns at all. For anything
    outside single shot target shooting at a registered range.

    Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down
    through 410 'crow guns' to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for
    small game like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many people
    use larger.

    Naturally Britain being a very small country with a lot of people,
    strict codes of practice accompany game shooting. It is illegal to
    shoot anything but bird shot upwards...

    --
    The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
    diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
    into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
    what it actually is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 13:04:14 2024
    On 06/12/2024 09:00, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 03:29:11 -0000 (UTC), pH wrote:

    I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that >>> there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
    'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.

    I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.

    Probably for some people. Personally I'm a little weird and I eat the
    tails on fried shrimp and shrimp cocktails. Maybe I have some sort of
    dietary deficiency but I'm fairly sure I could handle cricket flour.

    I don't know if it's still around but Reese was a company that sold cans
    of weird stuff including fried grasshoppers, whale, and chocolate covered
    bees. The grasshoppers weren't bad.

    Trivia: Many of the Indian tribes ate grasshoppers. They approached it
    with great efficiency and set fire to the fields. The fire got rid of the
    legs and wings, producing roasted hoppers.

    Interesting! Nothing new under the sun! But somewhere there is a problem
    or else there would be abundant grasshopper protein companies.

    I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
    substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.

    Or maybe it is just culture, and they foresee it as being very difficult
    to persude the consumer to try it.


    Food processing is a different regime from food cultivation

    I think that point about crickets and grass hoppers is, like many many
    other edible things, they just are not that good.

    Tasteless prawns I would imagine.


    Food really exists in three broad categories...

    Food you really like to eat
    Food that is OK if boring.
    Food that tastes vile, but will keep you alive, in extremis

    I think insects are probably at the lower end of the second category


    Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
    more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
    their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
    battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
    that they are dead.
    Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 6 13:18:36 2024
    On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

      The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
      entirely our own inventions.

      And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

      Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    More Kant-ian.

    His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the 'world-in-itself'
    and how we perceive it. His point being that the objects we reify it
    into are not actually there as discrete entities, they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to others.

    Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship
    doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting bits
    of wood.

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and
    a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object
    after having all of its original components replaced over time,
    typically one after the other.

    In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens,
    rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the
    Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the
    Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to
    Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers:
    After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece
    of the Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was it still
    the same ship? )

    Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If
    you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem
    because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in reality.

    Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it
    refers to. Meta data. A pointer.


    --
    "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
    and understanding".

    Marshall McLuhan

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 13:31:43 2024
    On 06/12/2024 09:09, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

     The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
     entirely our own inventions.

     And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

     Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...


    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
    theme. ;) But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real
    world as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true
    or false.

    Its not that the real world is not at some level most usefully regarded
    as a fact, it is that the more subtle question is whether what we
    *perceive* is in fact the real world *at all*. Or simply a construction
    in our own minds that maps what is *actually* there (maybe a
    probabilistic entangled quantum soup) into a recognisable world of
    objects and events linked in space time by natural law and causality.

    Kant's objection to that view (what you see is what is there), which
    formed the basis for classical science, has been ignored until the early
    20th century, when it began to re-emerge in the philosophy of science.
    Karl Popper's view that science was not the discovery of natural laws of
    fact, but rather the invention of testable theories that *fitted the
    facts*, was a direct response to Einstein and the quantum boys.

    In that context Kant's views are of course a construction in their own
    right. As unprovable as the laws of science. But, like science, "it
    works, bitches"

    And philosophy and physics are really coming together at last, with very
    smart people trying to come up with structures that work, that look
    nothing whatsoever like the ordinary world of our perceptions.

    Science is of course a mere branch of philosophy - 'Natural philosophy'.



    --
    "Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

    ― Confucius

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 13:41:53 2024
    On 06/12/2024 09:11, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
    creative and destructive energies.

     To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'

     WE make of it all as we will.

     Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...


    I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to
    disagree. I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate
    nature, laws and composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far
    science will take us. I lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive empiricism.

    I don't think we disagree except on one fundamental point.

    I do not see the world we commonly understand as 'real' to be anything
    more than a construction.

    BUT where we do agree is that it has a sense and order that reflects
    some underlying reality that is beyond our power to modify, and that is
    the massive mistake the 'reality is a social construct' trans and
    Marxist ideologists make. You can wear a dress, but you cannot thereby
    change what you really are.

    It is the introduction of a level of meta-data - a series of
    indirections, that creates the world of our experience. And that
    introduction is man made. Our everyday life deals with the pointers,
    never with the data itself. That is the essence of Kant, phrased for an
    IT audience..

    And we can rearrange the pointers in any damn fool way we want - and
    the Left love to do that - but the data itself is not ours to change.

    So I too have the concept of a 'beyond the mind' reality. I just don't
    consider it to be accessible directly. We work with interpretations of
    it that are anthropic and approximate only.

    "The map, is not the territory."...


    --
    The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
    diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
    into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
    what it actually is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 13:46:21 2024
    On 06/12/2024 08:56, D wrote:


    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 10:22:53 +0100, D wrote:

    Hmm, I wonder if it is difficult to make? My wifes father has about 15
    apple trees or so in the country side and gets more apples than he can
    deal with.

    https://www.instructables.com/How-to-make-cider/

    That would work for small quantities. The person we got cider from had a
    hopper that fed the apples into a drum with screws sticking out and used
    the tractor PTO to run the drum but he was large scale. The press was
    essentially the same but larger with a jackscrew rather than a hydraulic
    jack.


    Interesting! That could be a project for next summer. On the other hand,
    for every liter of cider, I'd be giving up a liter of apple juice in the morning. =/

    That is indeed a problem. At one time we (me and the ex) tried all that
    an created gallons of apple juice and indeed pear juice for ourselves
    family and friends. One set of friends apples was emptied into plastic
    milk bottles and destined for cider, but it proved too tempting and was
    drunk within a month.

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
    me Natures best laxative...

    --
    In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
    gets full Marx.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 13:47:52 2024
    On 06/12/2024 08:58, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, pH wrote:

    On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that
    there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
    'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.

    I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.

    This being Usenet I'm sure someone will set me straight if I'm way off
    base!

    pH in Aptos

    Wouldn't surprise me at all, but if that is only a problem with a
    minority of people, it could still be a thing. Imagine, prime african grasshopper steak! Hmm, or maybe that would be closer to bread? Or grasshopper burger?


    Shrimp paste or ground shrimp is close I suspect. Crustaceans are
    related to insects closely.

    --
    To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 6 18:12:42 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet >>>> for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

      The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
      entirely our own inventions.

      And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

      Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    More Kant-ian.

    His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the 'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete entities, they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to others.

    Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting bits of wood.

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object after having all of its original components replaced over time, typically one after the other.

    In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship? )

    Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in reality.

    I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem with
    this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then make up
    labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal heavens,
    concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an sich is an
    absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which can never be
    known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it refers to. Meta data. A pointer.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 6 18:09:24 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 09:00, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 03:29:11 -0000 (UTC), pH wrote:

    I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that >>>> there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
    'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.

    I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.

    Probably for some people. Personally I'm a little weird and I eat the
    tails on fried shrimp and shrimp cocktails. Maybe I have some sort of
    dietary deficiency but I'm fairly sure I could handle cricket flour.

    I don't know if it's still around but Reese was a company that sold cans >>> of weird stuff including fried grasshoppers, whale, and chocolate covered >>> bees. The grasshoppers weren't bad.

    Trivia: Many of the Indian tribes ate grasshoppers. They approached it
    with great efficiency and set fire to the fields. The fire got rid of the >>> legs and wings, producing roasted hoppers.

    Interesting! Nothing new under the sun! But somewhere there is a problem or >> else there would be abundant grasshopper protein companies.

    I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat substitutes, >> but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.

    Or maybe it is just culture, and they foresee it as being very difficult to >> persude the consumer to try it.


    Food processing is a different regime from food cultivation

    I think that point about crickets and grass hoppers is, like many many other edible things, they just are not that good.

    Tasteless prawns I would imagine.


    Food really exists in three broad categories...

    Food you really like to eat
    Food that is OK if boring.
    Food that tastes vile, but will keep you alive, in extremis

    I think insects are probably at the lower end of the second category

    I agree. The closest thing I eat on a regular basis is crayfish, and by themselves they taste very little and need spices and condiments.

    I think the market segment for cricket-flour would be the lowest end of
    the market, that need calories and proteins at a low cost. I can imagine, perhaps a few eco-fascists might jump on the cricket-train as well.


    Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is that they are dead. Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 6 18:23:09 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 09:11, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
    creative and destructive energies.

     To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'

     WE make of it all as we will.

     Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...


    I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to disagree. >> I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate nature, laws and >> composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far science will take us. I
    lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive empiricism.

    I don't think we disagree except on one fundamental point.

    I do not see the world we commonly understand as 'real' to be anything more than a construction.

    I have a feeling our disagreement then, is more about definitions, than
    about actual state of things. Since I am leaning towards instrumentalism/constructive empiricism, I am very comfortable with
    science as a map, or tool, and not an exact description of reality.

    I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I mean,
    a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
    we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never will) determine the nature of it.

    BUT where we do agree is that it has a sense and order that reflects some underlying reality that is beyond our power to modify, and that is the massive mistake the 'reality is a social construct' trans and Marxist ideologists make. You can wear a dress, but you cannot thereby change what you really are.

    It is the introduction of a level of meta-data - a series of indirections, that creates the world of our experience. And that introduction is man made. Our everyday life deals with the pointers, never with the data itself. That is the essence of Kant, phrased for an IT audience..

    And we can rearrange the pointers in any damn fool way we want - and the Left love to do that - but the data itself is not ours to change.

    So I too have the concept of a 'beyond the mind' reality. I just don't consider it to be accessible directly. We work with interpretations of it that are anthropic and approximate only.

    "The map, is not the territory."...




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 6 18:18:27 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 09:09, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet >>>>> for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

     The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
     entirely our own inventions.

     And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

     Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...


    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
    theme. ;) But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world >> as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or false.

    Its not that the real world is not at some level most usefully regarded as a fact, it is that the more subtle question is whether what we *perceive* is in fact the real world *at all*. Or simply a construction in our own minds that maps what is *actually* there (maybe a probabilistic entangled quantum soup) into a recognisable world of objects and events linked in space time by natural law and causality.

    I'd say it is an obvious fact and not a subtle question if we look at the limited spectrum of our senses, and our limited compute resources. I think
    in terms of reality, it can be seen as a spectrum of probabilities about
    things in the world. Many clever people cling to this, and think it means
    that no world exists, or that nothing can be proven. I reverse that, and
    say that any proposed alternatives to the real world should be proven, and
    if they are not, the real world is a perfectly reasonable default
    assumption.

    Kant's objection to that view (what you see is what is there), which formed the basis for classical science, has been ignored until the early 20th century, when it began to re-emerge in the philosophy of science. Karl Popper's view that science was not the discovery of natural laws of fact, but rather the invention of testable theories that *fitted the facts*, was a direct response to Einstein and the quantum boys.

    In that context Kant's views are of course a construction in their own right. As unprovable as the laws of science. But, like science, "it works, bitches"

    And philosophy and physics are really coming together at last, with very smart people trying to come up with structures that work, that look nothing whatsoever like the ordinary world of our perceptions.

    Science is of course a mere branch of philosophy - 'Natural philosophy'.





    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 6 18:24:57 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 08:58, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, pH wrote:

    On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that >>> there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
    'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.

    I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.

    This being Usenet I'm sure someone will set me straight if I'm way off
    base!

    pH in Aptos

    Wouldn't surprise me at all, but if that is only a problem with a minority >> of people, it could still be a thing. Imagine, prime african grasshopper
    steak! Hmm, or maybe that would be closer to bread? Or grasshopper burger? >>

    Shrimp paste or ground shrimp is close I suspect. Crustaceans are related to insects closely.

    This sounds very reasonable!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Doctor@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 17:29:16 2024
    And then there is Joy to the world over in the drwho groups.
    --
    Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
    Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ;
    Merry Christmas 2024 and Happy New Year 2025

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 19:49:14 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:00:47 +0100, D wrote:

    I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
    substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.

    It wouldn't be vegan.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 19:54:53 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:

    I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
    mean,
    a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
    we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
    will)
    determine the nature of it.

    It's all water.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 20:51:14 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:

    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
    theme. But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world
    as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or
    false.

    Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate. Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats. Ultimately 'cat'
    is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of anything.

    https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf

    Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 6 21:39:58 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:00:47 +0100, D wrote:

    I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
    substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.

    It wouldn't be vegan.


    Ahh... so that is their target group. Then it makes sense, thank you.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 6 21:40:17 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:

    I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
    mean,
    a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
    we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
    will)
    determine the nature of it.

    It's all water.


    Nonsense! Ether!

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 6 20:33:24 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 13:09:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down
    through 410 'crow guns' to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for
    small game like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many people
    use larger.

    Over the years .223 has become acceptable in more states. Part of that has
    been the NRA promoting AR-15 style rifles as the 'modern sporting rifle'
    as a counterweight to the ignorant leftists screaming 'assault rifle'. I
    have a bolt action .223 which is very accurate and pleasant to shoot but
    if I were deer hunting I'd go with the 7.62 x 54R.

    The traditional deer rifle where I grew up was the .32 Winchester Special.
    That was a regional preference over the more popular .30-30 one the theory
    that .32 trumps .30. The ballistics are similar however. Some of the more populous counties were restricted to 12 gauge slugs or buckshot.

    In this state anything up to .50 caliber is legal. There was an attempt to supersede Federal laws for firearms manufactured in state that would allow
    up to 1.5" for man portable smokeless powder weapons. It was actually as
    10th Amendment states rights challenge more than a 2nd Amendment.

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/firearms-freedom-act- constitution-gary-marbut/

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 21:15:06 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 21:39:58 +0100, D wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:00:47 +0100, D wrote:

    I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
    substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.

    It wouldn't be vegan.


    Ahh... so that is their target group. Then it makes sense, thank you.

    That's Impossible Burgers claim to fame. I've had vegetable birgers like
    the black bean varieties and they aren't bad but they're not pretending to
    be meat and they aren't expensive. Somehow a vegan eating something that
    looks like a bloody hamburger reminds me of Jews chowing down on faux
    bacon.

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 02:30:46 2024
    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
    me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sat Dec 7 02:30:45 2024
    On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
    Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
    who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
    the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
    I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
    with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several years (and
    upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
    application builds from source, which grew tiresome.

    I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
    Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
    to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
    to move on. I finally settled on Debian.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 22:41:45 2024
    On 12/6/24 4:12 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
       Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
       who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    Was my first distro too. After that, I can't remember if I went to
    Mandrake or if I had netbsd in between.

    Was NetBSD out in that time-frame ???


    I've got Fedora 40 on one machine. Not bad but it updates frequently
    compared to Ubuntu or Debian.

    Debian us on my work machine. I wanted stability, not cutting edge.


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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 6 22:40:18 2024
    On 12/6/24 2:43 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
    Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
    who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.


    Hey - REMEMBER that !!! :-)

    MIGHT still have those disks ...

    NOT sure if it had 'X' ... that might have been
    the early early RH I bought a little later. I do
    remember having to tweak a LOT of config files
    and download a lot of drivers just to get 'X'
    to understand I had a mouse and keyboard.

    Ah, the Bad Old Days :-)


    I've got Fedora 40 on one machine. Not bad but it updates frequently
    compared to Ubuntu or Debian.

    Debian us on my work machine. I wanted stability, not cutting edge.

    Therein my gripe with Deb now ... it really really
    smells like they hired a bunch of Canonical rejects.
    Deb was supposed to be The Foundation, solid and
    stolid, no BS, stick with What Works.

    But the LATEST one especially ..... !

    NOW it's not Deb, just another 'Buntu

    I'll stick with previous versions for as long
    as possible. If they don't backtrack and mend
    their ways then it's Fedora or Arch derivs
    forever.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Fri Dec 6 22:59:44 2024
    On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
    Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>> who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
    the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
    I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
    with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several years (and
    upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
    application builds from source, which grew tiresome.


    Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot
    of bad, in that. You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...

    But I'm not 16 anymore.


    I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
    Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
    to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
    to move on. I finally settled on Debian.

    Well, you COULD get past Unity ...

    My biggest objections were the 'services' they kept
    pushing hard - indeed could barely install it anymore
    without signing up (shades of M$ !). They also changed
    and/or moved around a LOT of config stuff for NO real
    gain IMHO.

    Deb - WAS the Solid Foundation - but suddenly became
    just another 'Buntu.

    So now it's Fedora and Arch derivs.

    I've heard GenToo is kinda interesting ... and
    there are always the BSDs.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Fri Dec 6 23:33:14 2024
    On 12/5/24 3:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:03:09 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I kinda know how Apache thinks, what goes in which config files /
    folders.

    Apache conceptually only has a single config file. Everything else is (directly or indirectly) included from that file.

    Yes, I was using Apache back when distros shipped it with everything in a single config file.

    The common layout nowadays is not hard to get to grips with: put each
    virtual site into its own config file, and use macros and your own
    includes to avoid repeated cut/paste of the same boilerplate.

    I'm fine with Apache. You DO need to tweak more than
    one config file these days alas - and HTTPS should be
    just a DEFAULT alongside HTTP.

    It's NOT as efficient as some of the up and comers,
    but there IS something to be said for "standards".

    Hoping for an Apache3 eventually ...

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 6 23:43:31 2024
    On 12/6/24 8:09 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/12/2024 06:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 2:34 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:28:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

        Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush >>>>     ... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar
    hunts
        YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
        carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want >>>> fused
        wrists in yer old age

    A friend bought a .454 Casull which was the big dog at the time. He was
    pissed when S&W upped the ante. I draw the line at .357 and even then
    for
    target practice I load closer to .38 Special specs.

       .38 +P is about all ya need for general/defense work.
       Just generally go for the lighter bullets, not the
       traditional 158s. Fer sure those old "police loads"
       did NOT impress.

       NOT sure I'd like .357 for wild boar. It'd take TOO
       perfect a hit. The .44 gives you a little slack.

       I've fired a .454 ... and decided I didn't want to
       fire one anymore. The .50 ... nah ! MAYbe for extra
       large people. There's some point in there where you
       go for a carbine/rifle.

       Hmmmmmm ... if you necked-down the .50 to 10mm - a
       sort of modernized 44/40. Might make a really good
       revolver/carbine combo.

    Interestingly in the UK we cannot use handguns at all. For anything
    outside single shot target shooting at a registered range.


    That's left-wing totalitarianism for you.

    Alas, I think the UK is just about to go DOWN.

    Hope you have a place way out in the countryside.


    Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down
    through 410 'crow guns'  to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for
    small game like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many people
    use larger.

    Naturally Britain being a very small country with a lot of people,
    strict codes of practice accompany game shooting.  It is illegal to
    shoot anything but bird shot upwards...

    And you don't find this suspiciously Big Brotherish ?

    WHO is being protected with all that - YOU ?

    Try the USA. You can own almost anything - and even
    get a license for .50 machine-guns. Probably won't
    even need that once Trump's people are in.

    In the PAST I'd have said the UK was 'less hazardous'
    and therefore less need for strong weapons ... but
    the news the past several years .........

    At minimum dude :


    https://www.allbeststuff.com/chain-mail-armour/aluminum-brass-titanium-chain-mail-shirts/titanium-chain-mail-hauberks-the-strongest-chainmail-for-sca-full-contact-fighting

    https://www.ringmesh.com/


    https://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Gears-Titanium-Chainmail-Riveted/dp/B00ZYYPNZE

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 6 23:27:52 2024
    On 12/6/24 4:06 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 4:25 AM, D wrote:


     the suggestions, check a few boxes ... saves like
     an hour. Ever set up RAID The Hard Way ? With Yast

    Yast? Are you another opensuse user? I thought I was the only one!

     USED to be my fave from LONG back. Found a distro
     in WalMart of all places. Had used Red Hat, but
     SUSE (now OpenSUSE) had many advanced tools that
     made the long and tedious NOT so long and tedious.

    It's been rock solid for me for at least a decade. More probably. I had
    a consulting gig at a cloud company and I used opensuse. Never had any problem at all. The engineers all had ubuntu and had problems with the
    wifi all the time. Ubuntu does not seem very good.

     Alas after IBM and RH ... that whole group of
     derivs ... you're kinda reduced to their beta
     testers now. SO sad.

    This is not so good. I hope IBM won't kill redhat in the end.


    Alas I think they will. As said, you are now IBMs
    beta tester. This is valuable for working out a
    number of kinks - but eventually the kinks will
    be kinda dealt with. Then RH and its downstream
    parasites will Go Away.


     Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
     a bunch of Canonical rejects .....

    Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
    thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble
    musl will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about actually going back to some of my earliest experiments and try FreeBSD
    for day to day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I only need
    some basics, which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages, so if they
    fixed their wifi problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to run a small
    linux VM for a working wifi driver) it could definitely be a serious
    option. Oh, and that would mean it doesn't drain the battery as well.
    But let's see. I think I can stick with opensuse 15.6 for at least
    another 2-3 years, and then they might kill the project in favuor of
    some container based crap.


    Deb WAS the Solid Foundation ... until now. It became
    just another 'Buntu IMHO. Tragic !

    The BSDs are "usable" - really Not Bad. However remember
    they are Unix, not Linux, so a lot of little stuff is
    different. They also tend to be a few years behind when
    it comes to drivers. The real target is SERVERS, not
    desktops.

    OpenSUSE/Tumbleweed ... DID get it to run on a Pi-4,
    albeit a bit clunky sometimes because it isn't a
    "light" distro. Pi-5s are WEIRD ... can't even get
    a Fedora for those even a year on. Apparently the
    boot-up chain of events is a huge kludge. HAVE
    found instructions - pages and pages and pages
    of them - WAY too old for that shit and half of
    it would probably disappear on the next update.

    If you really want an alt, consider Arch and
    derivs. Endeavour is nice. Manjaro works well
    (but, like Tumbleweed, kinda updates the ENTIRE
    system at the slightest change).


     Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK.
     The Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never
     a fan of Slack, but, who knows ...... gotta keep
     evading suckitude.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 04:50:04 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 22:40:18 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    But the LATEST one especially ..... !

    My Debian machine is still Bullseye. Raspberry Pi OS is based on Debian Bookworm but it's stripped down.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 05:29:47 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 23:43:31 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Try the USA. You can own almost anything - and even get a license for
    .50 machine-guns. Probably won't even need that once Trump's people
    are in.

    I don't need one of those. .50 BMG is about $4 a pop if you load your own.
    Even .45-70 is a little rich for my blood.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 00:19:14 2024
    On 12/6/24 3:33 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 13:09:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down
    through 410 'crow guns' to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for
    small game like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many people
    use larger.

    Over the years .223 has become acceptable in more states. Part of that has been the NRA promoting AR-15 style rifles as the 'modern sporting rifle'
    as a counterweight to the ignorant leftists screaming 'assault rifle'. I
    have a bolt action .223 which is very accurate and pleasant to shoot but
    if I were deer hunting I'd go with the 7.62 x 54R.

    The 5.56/.223 is a fairly good cartridge, in the right
    rifle it's quite accurate as well. It has the advantage
    of being 'military' - meaning large stocks will always
    be found even after a Zombie Apocalypse.

    Consider the Ruger rifles - not AS accurate but quite
    strongly built and less likely to jam up.

    But larger cal is better for 'hunting'. 6.5mm to .30
    for northern Europe. The old 6.5 Swedish is a great
    cartridge.

    Canada/Alaska ... consider .375 H&H for some needs.
    Kicks like a bastard though ....

    The traditional deer rifle where I grew up was the .32 Winchester Special. That was a regional preference over the more popular .30-30 one the theory that .32 trumps .30. The ballistics are similar however. Some of the more populous counties were restricted to 12 gauge slugs or buckshot.

    In this state anything up to .50 caliber is legal. There was an attempt to supersede Federal laws for firearms manufactured in state that would allow
    up to 1.5" for man portable smokeless powder weapons. It was actually as
    10th Amendment states rights challenge more than a 2nd Amendment.

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/firearms-freedom-act- constitution-gary-marbut/


    Frankly, a 20/16/12/10-guage SLUG is equiv to "over .50".

    You can only go for SO much energy without breaking bits
    of your body. Did fire some 10-ga slugs once ... DON'T
    wanna fire any more. Ain't built like The Rock.


    https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/power-shok/power-shok-rifled-slug/11-F103F+RS.html


    https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/federal-classic-10-gauge-3-1-2-1-3-4-oz-rifled-slugs-5-rounds?a=1594540

    For "overall best for most purposes" I'd again pick
    an oldie ... the 7x57 Mauser (with 150gr bullets, not
    the old heavy mil).

    Sorry, no not so much a magnum fiend :-)

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 05:37:39 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 00:19:14 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Consider the Ruger rifles - not AS accurate but quite strongly built
    and less likely to jam up.

    I'm a Ruger fan but I went with Savage for the .223. It's better than I
    am.

    But larger cal is better for 'hunting'. 6.5mm to .30 for northern
    Europe. The old 6.5 Swedish is a great cartridge.

    Canada/Alaska ... consider .375 H&H for some needs. Kicks like a
    bastard though ....

    I don't think so. Even the 7.62x54R gets real old after 2o rounds or so.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Dec 7 00:32:48 2024
    On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and
    a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object
    after having all of its original components replaced over time,
    typically one after the other.

    Last night somebody broke into my apartment and replaced
    everything with exact duplicates. When I pointed it out
    to my roommate, he said, "Do I know you?"
    -- Steven Wright

    This, milord, is my family's axe. We have owned it for
    almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it
    needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new
    handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing
    of the ornamentation... but is this not the nine-hundred-
    year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed
    gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y'know.
    Pretty good.
    -- Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant

    And of course, our bodies go through much the same process.



    Humans are Fuzzy Thinkers. It's not Mr. Spock logical,
    but it's a lot more FUN ! :-)

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 01:04:51 2024
    On 12/6/24 2:54 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:

    I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
    mean,
    a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
    we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
    will)
    determine the nature of it.

    It's all water.

    Containing turtles .... :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 00:55:10 2024
    On 12/6/24 4:11 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
    creative and destructive energies.

     To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'

     WE make of it all as we will.

     Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...


    I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to
    disagree. I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate
    nature, laws and composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far
    science will take us. I lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive empiricism.


    IMHO, 'material' owns it - 'reality'-wise anyhow.

    However the Quality Of Life depends on what we DO with that.
    It generally stops of short agreeing to the Nietzschean extreme.

    Sci-tech will eventually take us All The Way insofar as
    power over our environment. But, again, how do we FEEL
    such power and insight be used ?

    If it was easy they'd have resolved all this 25,000
    years ago.

    The Buddha understood there was a Real World - but
    WE could never ever really see/perceive it because
    of what we were, how nature put us together, our
    native environment, our IQ range. We will always
    have a key-hole view, seeing things through
    "human-colored glasses".

    Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the
    same stuff - but, maybe for political reasons, left
    off the last paragraph or two.

    ANYWAY, at the cold cold root - it's just all
    superstrings hummin' ... calculating a 'reality'
    as WE can sorta perceive it. Wolfram seems to
    have grasped this.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 02:41:42 2024
    On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
    fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

       The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
       entirely our own inventions.

       And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

       Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    More Kant-ian.

    His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the
    'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the
    objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete entities,
    they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to others.

    Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship
    doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting
    bits of wood.

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox
    and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same
    object after having all of its original components replaced over time,
    typically one after the other.

    In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens,
    rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the
    Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the
    Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to
    Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers:
    After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual
    piece of the Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was
    it still the same ship? )

    Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If
    you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem
    because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in
    reality.

    I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem
    with this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then make
    up labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal heavens, concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an sich is an
    absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which can never be
    known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as god, or a
    postulated first mover etc.

    Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it
    refers to. Meta data. A pointer.


    Kant ?

    Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.

    OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
    chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......

    BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
    an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
    humming along with simple interaction rules -
    cellular automata math.

    Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.

    But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 07:54:22 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 23:33:14 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I'm fine with Apache. You DO need to tweak more than one config file
    these days alas - and HTTPS should be just a DEFAULT alongside HTTP.

    Do it with macros. I have a setup for a client involving running about
    half a dozen virtual hosts on a single machine. Each site definition is
    only two lines in the Apache config: one for HTTP, the other for HTTPS.
    The macro for HTTP adds an automatic redirect to HTTPS if enabled by a
    single parameter setting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Dec 7 11:27:09 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
    me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.


    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
    they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 11:24:01 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 21:39:58 +0100, D wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:00:47 +0100, D wrote:

    I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
    substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.

    It wouldn't be vegan.


    Ahh... so that is their target group. Then it makes sense, thank you.

    That's Impossible Burgers claim to fame. I've had vegetable birgers like
    the black bean varieties and they aren't bad but they're not pretending to
    be meat and they aren't expensive. Somehow a vegan eating something that looks like a bloody hamburger reminds me of Jews chowing down on faux
    bacon.


    Yes! I don't think I ever had faux bacon. My father, who for a time in his
    life travelled a lot in arabia, had faux bacon and said it was disgusting.

    Once, he stayed at a hotel that actually had bacon!! But he couldn't find
    it. So he asked in the restaurant, and a guy said "follow me, I will show
    you". They were walking for a loooooong time and in a very empty, secluded
    and roped off corner there was a small tray with bacon. It wasn't good,
    but at least it was there.

    But arabians can change! He worked with a swedish/arabian guy who was a
    homo. He was very unhappy all his life, until he moved to sweden where his mother was from. There he discovered his homoness and his love of bacon,
    and his quality of life improved enormously. He was a very nice guy and pleasant to work with.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 11:20:51 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:

    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
    theme. But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world
    as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or
    false.

    Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate. Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats. Ultimately 'cat'
    is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of anything.

    https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf

    Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...

    Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his
    position on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up and meditate". ;)

    On the other hand, I do not know if this is what he actually thought, or
    if it is just hearsay.

    I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although it
    was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that original
    buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
    meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.

    Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
    adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that
    is why it started to diverge over the millennia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Dec 7 11:26:19 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
    Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
    who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
    the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
    I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
    with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several years (and
    upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
    application builds from source, which grew tiresome.

    I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
    Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
    to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
    to move on. I finally settled on Debian.

    Same here! At the dawn of time, I bought a slckware double cd in a local computer shop. One cd was the os and the other the package collection.
    Those were the days!

    I wondered sometimes, in these days of woke linux projects who are very militant when it comes to non-woke people, if I should try slckware again
    or move somewhere else.

    I do like opensuse, but their way of acting towards non-woke people, as reported on by Lunduke, really makes me want to stop supporting them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 11:29:13 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 4:12 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

       Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
       Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>>    who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    Was my first distro too. After that, I can't remember if I went to Mandrake >> or if I had netbsd in between.

    Was NetBSD out in that time-frame ???

    Let me have a look... 1993, and I think this was possibly between 94 to 95
    (not sure) so yes, seems like it.



    I've got Fedora 40 on one machine. Not bad but it updates frequently
    compared to Ubuntu or Debian.

    Debian us on my work machine. I wanted stability, not cutting edge.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 11:43:24 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Interestingly in the UK we cannot use handguns at all. For anything outside >> single shot target shooting at a registered range.


    That's left-wing totalitarianism for you.

    This is called "europe" in everyday language! ;)

    Alas, I think the UK is just about to go DOWN.

    This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer and socialism. After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will be a coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is now with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden democrats.

    Hope you have a place way out in the countryside.


    Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down through >> 410 'crow guns'  to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for small game
    like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many people use larger.

    Naturally Britain being a very small country with a lot of people, strict
    codes of practice accompany game shooting.  It is illegal to shoot anything >> but bird shot upwards...

    And you don't find this suspiciously Big Brotherish ?

    WHO is being protected with all that - YOU ?

    Try the USA. You can own almost anything - and even
    get a license for .50 machine-guns. Probably won't
    even need that once Trump's people are in.

    If I could move to red, rural and bible thumping US I would do so right now. Sadly family commitments keep me chained to europe. =(

    In the PAST I'd have said the UK was 'less hazardous'
    and therefore less need for strong weapons ... but
    the news the past several years .........

    Very little gun violence in the UK. However, seems to be a lot of sword and knife violence! =/

    At minimum dude :


    https://www.allbeststuff.com/chain-mail-armour/aluminum-brass-titanium-chain-mail-shirts/titanium-chain-mail-hauberks-the-strongest-chainmail-for-sca-full-contact-fighting

    https://www.ringmesh.com/


    https://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Gears-Titanium-Chainmail-Riveted/dp/B00ZYYPNZE


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 11:52:04 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

       The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
       entirely our own inventions.

       And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

       Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    More Kant-ian.

    His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the 'world-in-itself'
    and how we perceive it. His point being that the objects we reify it into >>> are not actually there as discrete entities, they are simply how we
    describe it to ourselves and to others.

    Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship
    doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting bits >>> of wood.

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and a >>> common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object after >>> having all of its original components replaced over time, typically one
    after the other.

    In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens,
    rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur >>> and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians
    would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to
    honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: After
    several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece of the >>> Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was it still the same >>> ship? )

    Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If you >>> are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem because you >>> believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in reality.

    I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem with
    this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then make up
    labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal heavens,
    concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an sich is an absurd >> konzept an sich. If you postulate something which can never be known, it is >> kind of useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover
    etc.

    Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it
    refers to. Meta data. A pointer.


    Kant ?

    Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.

    OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
    chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......

    BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
    an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
    humming along with simple interaction rules -
    cellular automata math.

    Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.

    But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...


    If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in
    scientific circles?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 11:52:24 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 00:55:10 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the same stuff - but,
    maybe for political reasons, left off the last paragraph or two.

    Then he went off he deep end with Platonic realism and set Western thought
    to chasing its tail for 2000 years.


    Agreed!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 11:32:47 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
    Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>>> who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
    the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
    I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
    with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several years (and
    upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
    application builds from source, which grew tiresome.


    Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot
    of bad, in that. You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...

    But I'm not 16 anymore.

    Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind _some_
    tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16 anymore and I have a business to run, so this I will remove from the list of my opensuse replacements.

    I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
    Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
    to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
    to move on. I finally settled on Debian.

    Well, you COULD get past Unity ...

    My biggest objections were the 'services' they kept
    pushing hard - indeed could barely install it anymore
    without signing up (shades of M$ !). They also changed
    and/or moved around a LOT of config stuff for NO real
    gain IMHO.

    Deb - WAS the Solid Foundation - but suddenly became
    just another 'Buntu.

    So now it's Fedora and Arch derivs.

    I've heard GenToo is kinda interesting ... and
    there are always the BSDs.

    I was very impressed with FreeBSD when I tried it out 1 year ago. The only thing missing for me was that in order to get anything faster that G-wifi,
    you had to run a small alpine VM with passthrough, since native drivers
    did not exist for FreeBSD.

    I tried to run a snapshot version, and faster than G-wifi did work, but something else was unstable, so I had to leave it for the moment.

    The laptop I tested it on was a (then) 1 year old Asus ExpertBook B5, and everything except the wifi worked flawlessly.

    The Freebsd handbook was absolutely amazing. The documentation is in my opinion, far, far ahead of linux. Suse does have some good guides
    actually, but I feel BSD is better.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 11:40:13 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    This is not so good. I hope IBM won't kill redhat in the end.


    Alas I think they will. As said, you are now IBMs
    beta tester. This is valuable for working out a
    number of kinks - but eventually the kinks will
    be kinda dealt with. Then RH and its downstream
    parasites will Go Away.

    This is very sad. I know a guy who is an EMEA level manager at Redhat, so he benefited from the acquisition with a nice promotion. According to him, what IBM
    is currently doing to destroy it is to mess around with licensing, to make it more draconian and more expensive. Ceph has moved to IBM, so that will probably go downhill, since IBM will always push GPFS over ceph.

    At redhat, the only things that is focused on is Openshift, as the ultimate lock-in tool, so the OS just lives to the side in its own world.

    What is sad is that SUSE is doing the excat same thing. Their strategy seems to be to copy everything Redhat does, and do it worse. They now only focus on rancher, and are leaving the OS to the side. They closed down their openstack and their ceph.

    What they sadly don't realize is that the OS is their jewel. I would focus on that in the embedded space, they had a hueg lead in the SAP space, and see if I could grow up. But no... rancher and containers it is, and there redhat is blocking them well with openshift.


     Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
     a bunch of Canonical rejects .....

    Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
    thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble musl
    will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about actually
    going back to some of my earliest experiments and try FreeBSD for day to
    day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I only need some basics,
    which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages, so if they fixed their wifi >> problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to run a small linux VM for a
    working wifi driver) it could definitely be a serious option. Oh, and that >> would mean it doesn't drain the battery as well. But let's see. I think I
    can stick with opensuse 15.6 for at least another 2-3 years, and then they >> might kill the project in favuor of some container based crap.


    Deb WAS the Solid Foundation ... until now. It became
    just another 'Buntu IMHO. Tragic !

    The BSDs are "usable" - really Not Bad. However remember
    they are Unix, not Linux, so a lot of little stuff is
    different. They also tend to be a few years behind when
    it comes to drivers. The real target is SERVERS, not
    desktops.

    True. BSDs are a bit behind, but since my main use case is office + light scripting + some light servers stuff (backup, web server, etc.) BSDs should be fine I think. We will see in about 1-2 years when the time comes to leave opensuse 15.6 behind.

    OpenSUSE/Tumbleweed ... DID get it to run on a Pi-4,
    albeit a bit clunky sometimes because it isn't a
    "light" distro. Pi-5s are WEIRD ... can't even get
    a Fedora for those even a year on. Apparently the
    boot-up chain of events is a huge kludge. HAVE
    found instructions - pages and pages and pages
    of them - WAY too old for that shit and half of
    it would probably disappear on the next update.

    I have a radxa zero for my kodi/tv use, and I tried to get opensuse to run on it
    and it was not possible. The radxa zero, being some kind of chinese raspberry copy had horrible documentation, so in the end, the only thing I managed to get working was some kind of dev snapshot of debian in their git repository.

    I would loooose for raspberry to develop an updated version of the pi zero. That
    is what the radxa is. I have 4 GB ram and 16 GB built in flash storage on the tiniest board. It was wifi and bluetooth, and kodi and 1080p runs well on it.

    If raspberry updated their zero to those specs (or beyond) I would drop the radxa in a second since I expect that the git repository will become unmaintained in a year or two.

    If you really want an alt, consider Arch and
    derivs. Endeavour is nice. Manjaro works well
    (but, like Tumbleweed, kinda updates the ENTIRE
    system at the slightest change).

    Thank you for the pointers. Have made a note of this.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 11:50:49 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 4:11 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
    outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
    creative and destructive energies.

     To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'

     WE make of it all as we will.

     Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...


    I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to disagree. >> I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate nature, laws and >> composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far science will take us. I
    lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive empiricism.


    IMHO, 'material' owns it - 'reality'-wise anyhow.

    However the Quality Of Life depends on what we DO with that.
    It generally stops of short agreeing to the Nietzschean extreme.

    Sci-tech will eventually take us All The Way insofar as
    power over our environment. But, again, how do we FEEL
    such power and insight be used ?

    If it was easy they'd have resolved all this 25,000
    years ago.

    The Buddha understood there was a Real World - but
    WE could never ever really see/perceive it because
    of what we were, how nature put us together, our
    native environment, our IQ range. We will always
    have a key-hole view, seeing things through
    "human-colored glasses".

    Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the
    same stuff - but, maybe for political reasons, left
    off the last paragraph or two.

    ANYWAY, at the cold cold root - it's just all
    superstrings hummin' ... calculating a 'reality'
    as WE can sorta perceive it. Wolfram seems to
    have grasped this.


    I pretty much agree with you. Not much to add. Interesting that this is
    your interpretation of Nietzsche. Mine is very similar. I would add, that Nietzsches philosophy is his own attempt, and that every person needs to
    make it "his own".

    Tying that to politics, I think it was Ludwig von Mises who wrote in his classic "Liberalism" (and this is liberalism in its original meaning, not
    the bastardized US meaning of the term, so think libertarianism),
    somethings along the lines of...

    Liberalism [libertarianism] is nothing more than the scientific view and
    method of how to structure society in such a way as to maximize material
    wealth and quality of life. Beyond maximizing material wealth, it makes no other claims or sets no other goals.

    So what you, as an individual, do with that wealth, if you use that to
    purchase time (work less) and what you fill that time with, is entirely up
    to you.

    I believe that this is why many people find libertarianism so scary. They
    have no inherent sense of value or goals. They need the goals pushed on
    them from the outside (equality, sustainability, be a cog wheel in the
    machine of the nation, the prosperity and success of the race, etc.) in
    order to feel meaning in their life.

    When they have an ism that does not push any form of value, but only wants
    to create time for people to flourish, since they are not self directed
    from within, they cannot make any sense at all of it, and it scares them
    at a deep level.

    That is why I think that the human psychology is not really ready for libertarianism, as long as the majority of humans are drawn to religions
    and isms in order for an external person to supply them with goals and
    values.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 11:59:19 2024
    On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
    If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
    useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary foundation of thinking.

    All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or
    not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not
    because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.

    We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the
    way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand
    them.




    --
    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
    always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

    Margaret Thatcher

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 12:24:59 2024
    On 07/12/2024 07:41, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him
    so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give
    an outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

       The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
       entirely our own inventions.

       And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

       Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    More Kant-ian.

    His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the
    'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the
    objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete entities,
    they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to others.

    Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship
    doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting
    bits of wood.

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox
    and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same
    object after having all of its original components replaced over
    time, typically one after the other.

    In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens,
    rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the
    Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the
    Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage
    to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient
    philosophers: After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each
    individual piece of the Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the
    other, was it still the same ship? )

    Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If
    you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem
    because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in
    reality.

    I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem
    with this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then
    make up labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal
    heavens, concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an
    sich is an absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which
    can never be known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as
    god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it
    refers to. Meta data. A pointer.


      Kant ?

      Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.

      OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
      chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......

      BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
      an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
      humming along with simple interaction rules -
      cellular automata math.

      Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.

      But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...

    Well I don't apply the term materialistic as strictly to that kind of view.

    Although he is still stuck with 'objects and events in space time linked
    by causality' .

    He hasn't really changed his metaphysics at all, merely made it
    increasingly remote with yet more dimensions to explain why it seems to
    be the way it seems to be.

    (Epicycles versus heliocentrism. You CAN do it all with epicycles, but
    sticking the sun in the middle is a co-ordinate transform that really
    makes it less shitty to calculate, as the Church accepted. What they
    didn't like was Galileo claiming it was 'true'. Because it isn't. It
    just works.)

    And hasn't gone as far as seeing that all of the above are in fact
    emergent properties of the consciousness that uses them as foundations
    for its thinking to map what really is, into a digestible form.

    Or rather that is in fact a far simpler way to arrive at a metaphysics
    that *works*.

    Bohm did all that with his theory on an 'implicate order' behind quantum physics. Showing that if you postulated another realm, quantum effects
    could be the emergent properties of that.

    And then testing the Bell inequality showed that at least that couldn't
    be the case for *local* variables.

    Physicists and mathematicians have all been trying to 'save materialism'
    from the onslaught of the Quantum world. Until recently are they
    beginning to think 'let's say we scrap materialism and think of it as an emergent property...what then could be the underlying reality and why do
    we see it as other than it probably is'?

    They are slowly getting there.

    I can't find a very interesting talk held in an annex before a big
    physical society conference on you tube any more . I suspect it simply
    hasn't had enough you tube views because no one understood it. I almost
    did. Enough to stay the course.

    Suffice to say the three participants were starting to think outside the materialistic box to find a solution to 'what quantum physics has to
    mean' etc.

    Also Sean Carroll is a very good presenter of ideas in this area. Worth
    a listen to.

    I think we are probably sue for a Kuhnian 'paradigm shift'

    --
    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
    always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

    Margaret Thatcher

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 13:00:46 2024
    On 07/12/2024 10:52, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him >>>>>>> so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give >>>>>>> an outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

       The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
       entirely our own inventions.

       And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

       Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    More Kant-ian.

    His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the
    'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the
    objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete
    entities, they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to
    others.

    Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a
    ship doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of
    rotting bits of wood.

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox
    and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same
    object after having all of its original components replaced over
    time, typically one after the other.

    In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of
    Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying
    the Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year,
    the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a
    pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by
    ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of
    maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus were
    replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship? )

    Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this.
    If you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a
    problem because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus'
    Ship' in reality.

    I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem
    with this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then
    make up labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal
    heavens, concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an
    sich is an absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which
    can never be known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as
    god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that
    it refers to. Meta data. A pointer.


     Kant ?

     Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.

     OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
     chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......

     BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
     an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
     humming along with simple interaction rules -
     cellular automata math.

     Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.

     But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...


    If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in scientific circles?

    Read 186282@ud0s4.net's exact words.

    "prove that our "physics" *can* be"...

    ...Anything.

    It's a bit like 'With enough terms in a polynomial I can draw an
    elephant'. True, but moderately useless.

    The first point that is relevant is the linkage between facts, and
    theories. Science *presupposes* that invisible eternal and immutable
    Laws of Nature (more digestible than Gods Demons or Elohim) guide events
    to inevitable conclusions, given the exact starting points. And the
    business of science is to 'discover' what those laws are.

    Or at least that was roughly the Newtonian worldview.

    It came under attack beginning with a clearer exposition of a logical
    flaw in how we arrived at these theories.

    Hume expressed it as the 'problem of induction' . That is the inability
    to derive general rules from specific instances. The sun rose today. It
    always has, but does that mean it always will?

    And we can extend that uncertainty into general rules of inference by
    stating categorically that in the case of certain events happening,
    there are both an infinite number of *possible* 'causes' as well as an
    infinite number of *impossible* ones.

    And science is a collection of possible ones. Not as most people think,
    of *facts*.

    And what is deemed possible is subjective. To some people the idea of
    injecting microchips into your brain to control your thinking is plausible.

    So the fact that some one 'proved something' *could* be *possible*,
    means absolutely nothing.

    If the something is vague enough and untestable it's basically pseudo scientific bullshit.

    What a theory has to do is to explain something in a testable way that
    differs from how it was explained before, and is more accurate in
    describing the world.

    Then scientists get interested. Einstein's theories accounted for
    gravity as we then understood it but gave corrections to things we had
    measured that didn't quite fit, as well. It worked better than Newtonian
    but it was radically and shockingly different.

    And a great loosening of the conviction that theories uncovered truths,
    to an understanding that they were *plausible constructions that
    worked*, only.

    And a better understanding of Occam in that the simplest idea no longer represented the truth, it was just that , in an infinity of
    possibilities, inventing complicated ones where simple ones were just as
    good, was mere posturing and intellectual flatulence.

    And that is the problem with string theory. It could be right but it
    brings nothing to the party. So why bother?


    --
    There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
    that sound good.

    Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 13:23:20 2024
    On 06/12/2024 20:40, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:

    I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
    mean,
    a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
    we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
    will)
    determine the nature of it.

    It's all water.


    Nonsense! Ether!

    Its all in the mind.
    Whose mind? I cancel that question! MY mind!

    --
    Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
    – Will Durant

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 13:22:06 2024
    On 06/12/2024 17:18, D wrote:

    Its not that the real world is not at some level most usefully
    regarded as a fact, it is that the more subtle question is whether
    what we *perceive* is in fact the real world *at all*. Or simply a
    construction in our own minds that maps what is *actually* there
    (maybe a probabilistic entangled quantum soup) into a recognisable
    world of objects and events linked in space time by natural law and
    causality.

    I'd say it is an obvious fact and not a subtle question if we look at the limited spectrum of our senses, and our limited compute resources. I
    think in terms of reality, it can be seen as a spectrum of probabilities about
    things in the world. Many clever people cling to this, and think it
    means that no world exists, or that nothing can be proven.

    Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
    the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
    arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam. Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.

    'Nothing can be proven' is in fact the case, and the whole problem and
    the disjunct between the mind of the ordinary person and that of
    philosophers.

    Only deductive logic is provable, But all science and everyday life
    rests on inductive logic and inference.

    On 'probable cause'.

    My late mother was convinced that people were coming in to her house and
    hiding her car keys. So she started putting them in places no one,
    including herself, would think to look.

    But with short term memory loss, she couldn't find them again, thus
    reinforcing the original belief.

    The neighbours were a plausible if somewhat paranoid explanation. For
    someone in her condition.

    It's the same with conspiracy theories. They are plausible to people
    without the background to reject them as extremely unlikely. How many
    people believed in WMD in Iraq?

    I reverse
    that, and say that any proposed alternatives to the real world should be proven, and if they are not, the real world is a perfectly reasonable
    default assumption.

    The problem is that no alternatives can be *proven*, and indeed while
    the 'real world' is a perfectly reasonable *assumption*, it starts to
    crack a little under the strain of modern physics. And indeed some
    psychology and other pressures. It cannot be 'proven' *either*.
    It is as you correctly say a default *assumption*.


    Left wing idealists would argue that the world is simply what you think
    it is and can be changed by 'magical thinking'. To them this is more
    than plausible, it is self evident *fact*.

    My point in advocating the philosophy of Kant et al, is that it solves
    problems that mere materialism does not.

    Neither can be proved correct, but in the context of modern life 'transcendental idealism' may prove to be (sic!) more *useful*.

    It accounts for the subjective element of experience. It allows time to
    pass differently for different observers.

    Pure materialism insist that time and space are immutable, they are
    there as the framework of all material existence. Einstein says that
    they are in fact relative to the observer.

    Oh dear.


    --
    "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
    let them."

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 13:23:59 2024
    On 07/12/2024 06:04, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/6/24 2:54 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:

    I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
    mean,
    a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
    we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
    will)
    determine the nature of it.

    It's all water.

      Containing turtles ....  :-)

    An infinite collection as well. Turtles all the way down!


    --
    “Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

    – Ludwig von Mises

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 13:30:57 2024
    On 07/12/2024 05:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    But larger cal is better for 'hunting'. 6.5mm to .30
      for northern Europe. The old 6.5 Swedish is a great
      cartridge.

    I think that is broadly the UK legal range.

    To be blunt about it, to kill a large animal cleanly requires a single massively traumatic event. Many hunters will not shoot until they can
    get a head shot. Either they miss, or they kill. No wounded animals
    dying of blood loss.

    To do that level of damage requires a bit more than even a high velocity
    .22 can manage. I believe those have a tendency to go straight through.


    --
    "I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
    This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
    all women"

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 13:43:12 2024
    On 07/12/2024 10:20, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:

    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
    theme.  But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world >>> as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or
    false.

    Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
    Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats. Ultimately 'cat'
    is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of anything.

    https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf

    Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...

    Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his
    position on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up and meditate". ;)

    There are states of mind that can be achieved that clarify why people
    started talking about gods and spirits and other realms in the first place.


    On the other hand, I do not know if this is what he actually thought, or
    if it is just hearsay.

    Does it matter?

    The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in
    that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or meaningless event.

    The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
    reality of words to a reality beyond them.


    I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although
    it was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that original buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
    meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.

    Buddhism is what one bloke said after he had successfully stopped his
    mind from thinking but yet wasn't actually unconscious. And a set of instructions on how to copy his techniques.

    I met a guy once who spent a long time doing that, who had also taken
    LSD He claimed that 'the end result is the same, but the LSD is much
    easier, and a bit more dangerous'.

    :-)

    Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
    adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that
    is why it started to diverge over the millennia.

    Yes. If you regard the primary purpose as detaching the consciousness
    from the intricate entanglement with ordinary affairs, which as far as I
    am concerned is all that it is, then the method will differ for each
    individual since their involvements all differ.

    Stopping the incessant flow of internal conversation is the name of the
    game, and it's (meditation) not the only way to do that. Trauma does
    it. Isolation and asceticism does it. Self punishment (flagellation)
    allegedly does it. Even lack of sleep does it. Some drugs do it.



    --
    Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 13:25:48 2024
    On 06/12/2024 17:24, D wrote:
    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst
    to me Natures best laxative...

    Pear juice? Had no idea!

    Neither did I.

    I do know though, that after enjoying fresh
    pressed apple juice, most, if not all, store bought juice tastes awful.

    Yes. Fresh pressed juice contains nothing to stop it becoming cider.,

    I am also not a fan of the filtered apple juice you get on planes, which probably comes down to the previous statement.

    Store bought juice is simply another product...

    --
    “Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

    – Ludwig von Mises

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 13:49:07 2024
    On 07/12/2024 10:26, D wrote:
    do like opensuse, but their way of acting towards non-woke people, as reported on by Lunduke, really makes me want to stop supporting them.

    Go woke, go broke.

    The Marxist termites have been burrowing through the fabric of society
    on the 'long march through the institutions' since 1967.

    Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
    idiocracy begins.

    Inevitably people who combine into less stupid and idealistic cohesions
    will take over.

    Possibly without any evident democracy. Hey ho, Twas ever thus...

    --
    No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Dec 7 13:50:16 2024
    On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
    me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.

    Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
    knee operations fail.

    Sometimes fatally


    --
    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
    always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

    Margaret Thatcher

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Dec 7 13:55:37 2024
    On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and
    a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object
    after having all of its original components replaced over time,
    typically one after the other.

    Last night somebody broke into my apartment and replaced
    everything with exact duplicates. When I pointed it out
    to my roommate, he said, "Do I know you?"
    -- Steven Wright

    Love it!

    This, milord, is my family's axe. We have owned it for
    almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it
    needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new
    handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing
    of the ornamentation... but is this not the nine-hundred-
    year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed
    gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y'know.
    Pretty good.
    -- Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant

    And of course, our bodies go through much the same process.

    And yet we have the feeling of continuity of at least our consciousness.

    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 13:54:01 2024
    On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
    me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting.  I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me.  This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.


    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
    they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
    operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
    pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.

    I went to her funeral.

    Other people end up with amputations.

    Hip replacements are very successful though.

    Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver antibiotics
    to the wound site



    --
    Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
    to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 14:02:22 2024
    On 07/12/2024 04:43, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/6/24 8:09 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/12/2024 06:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 2:34 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:28:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

        Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush >>>>>     ... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar >>>>> hunts
        YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
        carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want >>>>> fused
        wrists in yer old age

    A friend bought a .454 Casull which was the big dog at the time. He was >>>> pissed when S&W upped the ante. I draw the line at .357 and even
    then for
    target practice I load closer to .38 Special specs.

       .38 +P is about all ya need for general/defense work.
       Just generally go for the lighter bullets, not the
       traditional 158s. Fer sure those old "police loads"
       did NOT impress.

       NOT sure I'd like .357 for wild boar. It'd take TOO
       perfect a hit. The .44 gives you a little slack.

       I've fired a .454 ... and decided I didn't want to
       fire one anymore. The .50 ... nah ! MAYbe for extra
       large people. There's some point in there where you
       go for a carbine/rifle.

       Hmmmmmm ... if you necked-down the .50 to 10mm - a
       sort of modernized 44/40. Might make a really good
       revolver/carbine combo.

    Interestingly in the UK we cannot use handguns at all. For anything
    outside single shot target shooting at a registered range.


      That's left-wing totalitarianism for you.

      Alas, I think the UK is just about to go DOWN.

      Hope you have a place way out in the countryside.


    Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down
    through 410 'crow guns'  to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for
    small game like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many
    people use larger.

    Naturally Britain being a very small country with a lot of people,
    strict codes of practice accompany game shooting.  It is illegal to
    shoot anything but bird shot upwards...

      And you don't find this suspiciously Big Brotherish ?

      WHO is being protected with all that - YOU ?

    Yes. I got spattered with bird shot by a person shooting 300 yards away

      Try the USA. You can own almost anything - and even
      get a license for .50 machine-guns. Probably won't
      even need that once Trump's people are in.

    It's a lot bigger with plenty of empty spaces.

    Nevertheless I read or hard a story about a short woman firing a
    revolver (I think) upwards at a watermelon target in a drunken
    suburban barbecue. The bullet travelled a mile and killed someone in
    their own back yard.

      In the PAST I'd have said the UK was 'less hazardous'
      and therefore less need for strong weapons ... but
      the news the past several years .........


    It's all knives these days. Lots of knives. Our ex middle eastern chums
    love big knives,
    A few shootings. But that's socialism for you. They are more concerned
    about 'thought crimes' these days than people with guns.


      At minimum dude :


    https://www.allbeststuff.com/chain-mail-armour/aluminum-brass-titanium-chain-mail-shirts/titanium-chain-mail-hauberks-the-strongest-chainmail-for-sca-full-contact-fighting

      https://www.ringmesh.com/


    https://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Gears-Titanium-Chainmail-Riveted/dp/B00ZYYPNZE

    Titanium chain mail should be good against stabbings

    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 14:07:37 2024
    On 07/12/2024 10:43, D wrote:
    This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer and socialism.
    After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will be a coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is now
    with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden democrats.

    I pretty much agree with that.
    The tories had forgot to be conservative, and so they got kicked out.
    The socialists are predictably beyond incompetence, and in 4 years time
    they will go.

    I am not sure what the outcome will be but the country needs, wants, and
    will ultimately vote for, an end to wokeness and political ideology and
    a return to some sort of competent management...

    Kemi Badenoch is making all the right noises for the Tories, but can she
    repair the damage?




    --
    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
    ― Groucho Marx

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 14:12:48 2024
    On 07/12/2024 08:17, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 00:55:10 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the same stuff - but,
    maybe for political reasons, left off the last paragraph or two.

    Then he went off he deep end with Platonic realism and set Western thought
    to chasing its tail for 2000 years.

    Yup.

    But it worked OK at the time.


    --
    The New Left are the people they warned you about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 14:20:57 2024
    On 07/12/2024 10:50, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 4:11 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him >>>>>>> so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give >>>>>>> an outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's
    say creative and destructive energies.

     To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'

     WE make of it all as we will.

     Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...


    I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to
    disagree. I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate
    nature, laws and composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far
    science will take us. I lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive
    empiricism.


     IMHO, 'material' owns it - 'reality'-wise anyhow.

     However the Quality Of Life depends on what we DO with that.
     It generally stops of short agreeing to the Nietzschean extreme.

     Sci-tech will eventually take us All The Way insofar as
     power over our environment. But, again, how do we FEEL
     such power and insight be used ?

     If it was easy they'd have resolved all this 25,000
     years ago.

     The Buddha understood there was a Real World - but
     WE could never ever really see/perceive it because
     of what we were, how nature put us together, our
     native environment, our IQ range. We will always
     have a key-hole view, seeing things through
     "human-colored glasses".

     Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the
     same stuff - but, maybe for political reasons, left
     off the last paragraph or two.

     ANYWAY, at the cold cold root - it's just all
     superstrings hummin' ... calculating a 'reality'
     as WE can sorta perceive it. Wolfram seems to
     have grasped this.


    I pretty much agree with you. Not much to add. Interesting that this is
    your interpretation of Nietzsche. Mine is very similar. I would add,
    that Nietzsches philosophy is his own attempt, and that every person
    needs to make it "his own".

    Tying that to politics, I think it was Ludwig von Mises who wrote in his classic "Liberalism" (and this is liberalism in its original meaning,
    not the bastardized US meaning of the term, so think libertarianism), somethings along the lines of...

    Liberalism [libertarianism] is nothing more than the scientific view and method of how to structure society in such a way as to maximize material wealth and quality of life. Beyond maximizing material wealth, it makes
    no other claims or sets no other goals.

    So what you, as an individual, do with that wealth, if you use that to purchase time (work less) and what you fill that time with, is entirely
    up to you.

    I believe that this is why many people find libertarianism so scary.
    They have no inherent sense of value or goals. They need the goals
    pushed on them from the outside (equality, sustainability, be a cog
    wheel in the machine of the nation, the prosperity and success of the
    race, etc.) in order to feel meaning in their life.

    When they have an ism that does not push any form of value, but only
    wants to create time for people to flourish, since they are not self
    directed from within, they cannot make any sense at all of it, and it
    scares them at a deep level.

    That is why I think that the human psychology is not really ready for libertarianism, as long as the majority of humans are drawn to religions
    and isms in order for an external person to supply them with goals and values.

    I think this hits the nail on the head. Socialism now occupies the space
    left by the demise of Christianity.

    A sharp Jewish girlfriend of mine once observed that 'the people need to
    be told what is right and what is wrong, and how they should behave
    otherwise they simply don't know what to do'

    But they are increasingly realising that socialism too, has feet of clay.
    And I do not entirely agree that people cannot accept a reality without ideology.

    Libertarianism/pragmatism/conservatism can simply say that it
    deliberately restricts its activities to ensuring law, order, prosperity
    and social stability and is 'ultra vires' when it comes to determining
    moral behaviour.

    And leave that to religion or the BBC




    --
    “It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
    intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
    futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
    we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
    power-directed system of thought.”
    Sir Roger Scruton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Ahlstrom@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 10:15:42 2024
    The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    On 07/12/2024 10:26, D wrote:
    do like opensuse, but their way of acting towards non-woke people, as
    reported on by Lunduke, really makes me want to stop supporting them.

    Go woke, go broke.

    Woke derangement syndrome. Is one deranged for:

    1 Completely altering the original, native meaning of the word?
    2 Wanting to change now-loaded words used in technical contexts,
    such as "master" and "slave"?
    3 Whining about item 2?

    The Marxist termites have been burrowing through the fabric of society
    on the 'long march through the institutions' since 1967.

    LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!

    Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
    idiocracy begins.

    Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats?

    Inevitably people who combine into less stupid and idealistic cohesions
    will take over.

    Possibly without any evident democracy. Hey ho, Twas ever thus...

    Well, the pendulum does often swing... as in the Edgar Allen Poe story.

    --
    ... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
    lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
    their C programs.
    -- Robert Firth

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Ahlstrom@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 10:18:00 2024
    The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
    me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.

    Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
    knee operations fail.

    Sometimes fatally

    How so? Infection?

    I've had two hip replacements and have 3 plates holding up my neck.

    I had one cervical plate put in years ago, and play soccer, often as goalkeeper. The hits to the head apparently lead to removal of the first plate and the installation of 3.

    --
    NOTICE:
    Anyone seen smoking will be assumed to be on fire and will
    be summarily put out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 17:39:25 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
    If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of useless. >> It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary foundation of thinking.

    I disagree.

    All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.

    I agree. But the key here is that it works, as in, it creates a tangible effect. Das ding an sich, is useless, doesn't have any effect. I can
    postulate a phlarg, no effect, in any way, useless.

    I can postulate time, I can measure it, it helps me, it is not something,
    that is forever beyond knowledge since it is something that interacts with
    the world. I have no beef with that. But phlargs, and dings an sich, that
    in no way affect that world, is just garbage.

    In terms of god, go ahead, if the effect is that it makes you feel better. Again, a pragmatic effect in the real world.

    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms to
    make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a bunch of
    nice stories.

    We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand them.

    I know that space exists, and I know that time exists. But I think we're hitting our old battle ground, but, that this time I think it is about definitions and usage of terms, and not actually about content. Based on
    the previous post I think we are not as far apart as it might seem.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Chris Ahlstrom on Sat Dec 7 16:41:45 2024
    On 07/12/2024 15:18, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>> me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.

    Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
    knee operations fail.

    Sometimes fatally

    How so? Infection?

    Mainly as I understand it, yes.

    I've had two hip replacements and have 3 plates holding up my neck.

    Hips are far more successful, >95% no problems at all

    I had one cervical plate put in years ago, and play soccer, often as goalkeeper. The hits to the head apparently lead to removal of the first plate
    and the installation of 3.

    Again, not problematic.


    --
    "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
    look exactly the same afterwards."

    Billy Connolly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Chris Ahlstrom on Sat Dec 7 16:40:39 2024
    On 07/12/2024 15:15, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    On 07/12/2024 10:26, D wrote:
    do like opensuse, but their way of acting towards non-woke people, as
    reported on by Lunduke, really makes me want to stop supporting them.

    Go woke, go broke.

    Woke derangement syndrome. Is one deranged for:

    1 Completely altering the original, native meaning of the word?
    Dunno. Ask a 'gay'.

    2 Wanting to change now-loaded words used in technical contexts,
    such as "master" and "slave"?
    Oh yes, definitely.

    3 Whining about item 2?

    No.

    The Marxist termites have been burrowing through the fabric of society
    on the 'long march through the institutions' since 1967.

    LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!

    I guess you are one after all.


    Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
    idiocracy begins.

    Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats?

    Idiocrats *and* anarchists


    Inevitably people who combine into less stupid and idealistic cohesions
    will take over.

    Possibly without any evident democracy. Hey ho, Twas ever thus...

    Well, the pendulum does often swing... as in the Edgar Allen Poe story.

    And its the Left who are going to get sliced into bacon.


    --
    "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
    let them."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sat Dec 7 16:15:35 2024
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
    Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>>>> who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and
    browsed the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an
    install CD. I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up
    starting out with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several
    years (and upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required
    lots of application builds from source, which grew tiresome.


    Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot of bad, in that.
    You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...

    But I'm not 16 anymore.

    Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind
    _some_ tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16 anymore
    and I have a business to run, so this I will remove from the list of
    my opensuse replacements.

    Don't take the word of our nymshift troll 100%. Yes, Slackware is more
    hands on than a full on "hold your hand, you are an idiot" distro such
    as Ubuntu. But it is a far cry better than it was back in the "50
    floppies to install days". A default install of slack 15, picking
    "everything" gives you in most cases on normal hardware a working
    useful system -- and if you leave KDE "on" in the list of "everything"
    even gets you a "hold your hand, you are an idiot" desktop environment
    too.

    Where Slackware is more 'raw' than a Unbuntu is that if you want to
    modify, say, your default name search path or default name server, you
    simply edit /etc/resolv.conf instead of launching whatever GUI
    'configurator' it is that Ubuntu provides to poke at tabs and entries
    to make the change.

    And for that one, the install script asks you for the details as part
    of the install, so if you give the correct data at that time (same data
    you'd poke into the Ubuntu GUI configurator) then you don't even need
    to edit /etc/resolv.conf.

    There's an old quote that came about from the net long ago:

    Learn Ubuntu and you learn Ubuntu, learn Slackware and you learn Linux.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 17:50:59 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 20:40, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:

    I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
    mean,
    a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which >>>> we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never >>>> will)
    determine the nature of it.

    It's all water.


    Nonsense! Ether!

    Its all in the mind.
    Whose mind? I cancel that question! MY mind!

    Or would that be just.... mind? ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 17:42:54 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 07:41, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an >>>>>>> outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

       The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
       entirely our own inventions.

       And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

       Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    More Kant-ian.

    His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the 'world-in-itself' >>>> and how we perceive it. His point being that the objects we reify it into >>>> are not actually there as discrete entities, they are simply how we
    describe it to ourselves and to others.

    Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship
    doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting bits >>>> of wood.

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and a >>>> common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object
    after having all of its original components replaced over time, typically >>>> one after the other.

    In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens,
    rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur >>>> and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians
    would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to
    honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: After
    several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece of the >>>> Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was it still the same >>>> ship? )

    Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If you >>>> are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem because >>>> you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in reality.

    I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem with >>> this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then make up
    labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal heavens,
    concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an sich is an
    absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which can never be
    known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated >>> first mover etc.

    Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it
    refers to. Meta data. A pointer.


      Kant ?

      Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.

      OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
      chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......

      BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
      an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
      humming along with simple interaction rules -
      cellular automata math.

      Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.

      But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...

    Well I don't apply the term materialistic as strictly to that kind of view.

    Although he is still stuck with 'objects and events in space time linked by causality' .

    He hasn't really changed his metaphysics at all, merely made it increasingly remote with yet more dimensions to explain why it seems to be the way it seems to be.

    (Epicycles versus heliocentrism. You CAN do it all with epicycles, but sticking the sun in the middle is a co-ordinate transform that really makes it less shitty to calculate, as the Church accepted. What they didn't like was Galileo claiming it was 'true'. Because it isn't. It just works.)

    And hasn't gone as far as seeing that all of the above are in fact emergent properties of the consciousness that uses them as foundations for its thinking to map what really is, into a digestible form.

    Or rather that is in fact a far simpler way to arrive at a metaphysics that *works*.

    Bohm did all that with his theory on an 'implicate order' behind quantum physics. Showing that if you postulated another realm, quantum effects could be the emergent properties of that.

    And then testing the Bell inequality showed that at least that couldn't be the case for *local* variables.

    Physicists and mathematicians have all been trying to 'save materialism' from the onslaught of the Quantum world. Until recently are they beginning to think 'let's say we scrap materialism and think of it as an emergent property...what then could be the underlying reality and why do we see it as other than it probably is'?

    They are slowly getting there.

    I can't find a very interesting talk held in an annex before a big physical society conference on you tube any more . I suspect it simply hasn't had enough you tube views because no one understood it. I almost did. Enough to stay the course.

    Suffice to say the three participants were starting to think outside the materialistic box to find a solution to 'what quantum physics has to mean' etc.

    Also Sean Carroll is a very good presenter of ideas in this area. Worth a listen to.

    I think we are probably sue for a Kuhnian 'paradigm shift'

    The thing is... there's always the "shut up and calculate" interpretation.
    At the end of the day, the pragmatic effects in the world is all we can
    relate to. Formulas point to nrs, those nrs we then try to "reverse
    engineer" into verbal descriptions. Since we are dealing with levels and phenomena so far from our ordinary experience, we gets many wonderful
    and/or nonsensical interpretation such as the many worlds one, and many
    others.

    The thing is... should we ever prove any of it, which is not done, it will
    all just be added to our concept of the "material world" (caveat emptor,
    and definitions aside) and expand it and enrich our model of it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 17:51:48 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 17:24, D wrote:
    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to me >>> Natures best laxative...

    Pear juice? Had no idea!

    Neither did I.

    I do know though, that after enjoying fresh pressed apple juice, most, if
    not all, store bought juice tastes awful.

    Yes. Fresh pressed juice contains nothing to stop it becoming cider.,

    I am also not a fan of the filtered apple juice you get on planes, which
    probably comes down to the previous statement.

    Store bought juice is simply another product...

    This is the truth! The only store bought juice I drink occasionally, is pomegrenade juice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 17:45:08 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:52, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an >>>>>>>> outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

       The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
       entirely our own inventions.

       And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

       Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    More Kant-ian.

    His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the 'world-in-itself' >>>>> and how we perceive it. His point being that the objects we reify it >>>>> into are not actually there as discrete entities, they are simply how we >>>>> describe it to ourselves and to others.

    Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship >>>>> doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting bits >>>>> of wood.

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and >>>>> a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object >>>>> after having all of its original components replaced over time,
    typically one after the other.

    In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens, >>>>> rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the
    Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the >>>>> Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to >>>>> Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: >>>>> After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece >>>>> of the Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was it still >>>>> the same ship? )

    Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If >>>>> you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem
    because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in
    reality.

    I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem with >>>> this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then make up
    labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal heavens,
    concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an sich is an
    absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which can never be
    known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as god, or a
    postulated first mover etc.

    Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it >>>>> refers to. Meta data. A pointer.


     Kant ?

     Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.

     OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
     chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......

     BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
     an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
     humming along with simple interaction rules -
     cellular automata math.

     Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.

     But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...


    If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in
    scientific circles?

    Read 186282@ud0s4.net's exact words.

    "prove that our "physics" *can* be"...

    ...Anything.

    It's a bit like 'With enough terms in a polynomial I can draw an elephant'. True, but moderately useless.

    The first point that is relevant is the linkage between facts, and theories. Science *presupposes* that invisible eternal and immutable Laws of Nature (more digestible than Gods Demons or Elohim) guide events to inevitable conclusions, given the exact starting points. And the business of science is to 'discover' what those laws are.

    Or at least that was roughly the Newtonian worldview.

    It came under attack beginning with a clearer exposition of a logical flaw in how we arrived at these theories.

    Hume expressed it as the 'problem of induction' . That is the inability to derive general rules from specific instances. The sun rose today. It always has, but does that mean it always will?

    And we can extend that uncertainty into general rules of inference by stating categorically that in the case of certain events happening, there are both an infinite number of *possible* 'causes' as well as an infinite number of *impossible* ones.

    And science is a collection of possible ones. Not as most people think, of *facts*.

    And what is deemed possible is subjective. To some people the idea of injecting microchips into your brain to control your thinking is plausible.

    So the fact that some one 'proved something' *could* be *possible*, means absolutely nothing.

    If the something is vague enough and untestable it's basically pseudo scientific bullshit.

    What a theory has to do is to explain something in a testable way that differs from how it was explained before, and is more accurate in describing the world.

    Then scientists get interested. Einstein's theories accounted for gravity as we then understood it but gave corrections to things we had measured that didn't quite fit, as well. It worked better than Newtonian but it was radically and shockingly different.

    And a great loosening of the conviction that theories uncovered truths, to an understanding that they were *plausible constructions that worked*, only.

    And a better understanding of Occam in that the simplest idea no longer represented the truth, it was just that , in an infinity of possibilities, inventing complicated ones where simple ones were just as good, was mere posturing and intellectual flatulence.

    And that is the problem with string theory. It could be right but it brings nothing to the party. So why bother?

    Thank you for the elaboration. Then it makes more sense to me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 16:54:54 2024
    On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms
    to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a
    bunch of nice stories.

    Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position here.

    What do you mean by 'really exist' ?

    Do a persons hurt feelings 'really exist'? Or are they just pulling your strings?

    Metaphysics is the study of the assumptions we make about everything in
    order to be able to describe and manipulate things.

    If your metaphysics and your language doesn't have room for the 50 kinds
    of snow that some arctic cultures can claim exists, do those types of
    snow exist for you? No. Do they exist at all? Arguable. It's just 'snow'.

    It is clear you have no idea what metaphysics means and are confusing it
    with mysticism and religion.

    Sure, religion is a form of metaphysics, but *so is science*.

    Religion is the study of a world that includes a supernatural component. Science is the study of one that does not.

    The question of whether or not there is a supernatural component is
    proved by neither. In the end you assume what you assume, have faith in
    it and proceed to collect $200 and avoid going to jail, so to speak.

    I have no intrinsic problem with 'materialism' apart from the fact that
    like religion, it is a remarkably narrow and exclusive view and wholly unsatisfactory in the limit, and like religion, insists it is the One
    True Fact.






    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 17:57:36 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:20, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:

    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that >>>> theme.  But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world >>>> as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or
    false.

    Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
    Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats. Ultimately 'cat' >>> is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of anything.

    https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf

    Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...

    Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his position >> on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up and meditate". ;) >>
    There are states of mind that can be achieved that clarify why people started talking about gods and spirits and other realms in the first place.


    On the other hand, I do not know if this is what he actually thought, or if >> it is just hearsay.

    Does it matter?

    The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or meaningless event.

    The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the reality of words to a reality beyond them.


    I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although it >> was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that original
    buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
    meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.

    Buddhism is what one bloke said after he had successfully stopped his mind from thinking but yet wasn't actually unconscious. And a set of instructions on how to copy his techniques.

    I met a guy once who spent a long time doing that, who had also taken LSD He claimed that 'the end result is the same, but the LSD is much easier, and a bit more dangerous'.

    :-)

    Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
    adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the
    techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that is >> why it started to diverge over the millennia.

    Yes. If you regard the primary purpose as detaching the consciousness from the intricate entanglement with ordinary affairs, which as far as I am concerned is all that it is, then the method will differ for each individual since their involvements all differ.

    Stopping the incessant flow of internal conversation is the name of the game, and it's (meditation) not the only way to do that. Trauma does it.
    Isolation and asceticism does it. Self punishment (flagellation) allegedly does it. Even lack of sleep does it. Some drugs do it.

    I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death experiences as well.

    That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms are
    now starting to become so common, if there's something to be gained by
    doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind with external
    drugs?

    The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about
    underground trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual
    experience of merging with the universe. They want to experience it again
    and again.

    Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for decades, and
    then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving man, with enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and helping people.

    The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his dose
    of spirituality.

    Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the other
    method?

    I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an
    underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards he
    felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even hesitated to
    kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect started to wear off
    as life came back.

    I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.

    For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 17:07:44 2024
    On 07/12/2024 16:42, D wrote:
    The thing is... should we ever prove any of it, which is not done, it
    will all just be added to our concept of the "material world" (caveat
    emptor, and definitions aside) and expand it and enrich our model of it.

    That is your credo - your religion.
    I do not ascribe to it.

    Already quantum physics makes the 'material world' some sort of emergent property of a natural dice throwing quagmire of sub atomicity. To the
    point where calling it a 'material world' seems a bit impertinent.

    I merely say that to consider that the material world is just an
    emergent property of quantum soup *and* human consciousness, is more
    flexible and useful..

    I don't 'believe it to be 'true' because I cant believe *anything* to be
    true.

    It's models, not turtles, all the way down. Models whose sole
    justification is that they work well enough for us to think them and not
    die prematurely.

    That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying
    externality (your material world) is simply our way of representing
    some of the orderliness in our perceptions that they produce.

    "The world is everything that is the case" was Wittgenstein's 'final solution;' But of course he was no scientist, and a bit of a twat anyway.

    Suppose the world is whatever *might* be the case. And in fact why
    restrict yourself to one world?

    Quantum physicists don't. Strings, many worlds, probabilistic fields
    creating emergent realities once observed...

    I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your thinking.


    --
    There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
    that sound good.

    Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 18:24:53 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:26, D wrote:
    do like opensuse, but their way of acting towards non-woke people, as
    reported on by Lunduke, really makes me want to stop supporting them.

    Go woke, go broke.

    The Marxist termites have been burrowing through the fabric of society on the 'long march through the institutions' since 1967.

    Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or idiocracy begins.

    Inevitably people who combine into less stupid and idealistic cohesions will take over.

    Possibly without any evident democracy. Hey ho, Twas ever thus...

    I don't know. By nature I'm very long term optimistic. It would hardly be
    the first time in human history that we go through some kind of dark age,
    only to come out of it and eventually pick up speed towards new highs.

    I think perhaps the future consists of multi-polar, virtual communities,
    hiding in plain sight. The wokists do their thing, crash a society or two,
    get thrown out, things start to improve, until the next group comes along, generating an anti-group and so on.

    Meanwhile, in cyberspace, all the cool kids gather, learn, help each other
    out.

    Of course, since we have about 190+ countries or so, some will be more successful than others, and the interesting thing there is if they will be pressured by the failing ones to submit and share their wealth or if they
    will manage to somehow stay independent. I think the size of them would determine the outcome. Monaco and Liechtenstein have been able to survive longer than some modern european democracies, so it is not impossible,
    although difficult.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 18:27:07 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>> me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting.  I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me.  This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.


    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
    they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.

    I went to her funeral.

    Other people end up with amputations.

    Hip replacements are very successful though.

    Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver antibiotics to the wound site

    Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of life,
    my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having struggled
    with very painful cancer treatment for several years.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 18:30:41 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:43, D wrote:
    This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer and
    socialism.
    After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will be a
    coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is now
    with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden democrats.

    I pretty much agree with that.
    The tories had forgot to be conservative, and so they got kicked out. The socialists are predictably beyond incompetence, and in 4 years time they will go.

    I am not sure what the outcome will be but the country needs, wants, and will ultimately vote for, an end to wokeness and political ideology and a return to some sort of competent management...

    Kemi Badenoch is making all the right noises for the Tories, but can she repair the damage?

    I'd say it depends on how much of a fighter she is. She needs to kick out
    the old guard, and start afresh. She also needs to balance and respect the wishes of Farage. the swedish coalition has lasted more than 2 years now,
    and that coalition includes the swedish (socialist) liberal party who are
    so afraid of losing their seats (and money) in a new election, that they
    have been bullied to "shut up" by the nationalists. They have 2.8% and the nationalists have about 20%, so they are always saying "let's do it, let's
    have an election and see if you will last". This threat is remarkably
    effective at stopping the (socialist) liberal party from toppling the coalition.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 18:33:36 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:50, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 4:11 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an >>>>>>>> outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

    I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say >>>>>> creative and destructive energies.

     To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'

     WE make of it all as we will.

     Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...


    I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to
    disagree. I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate
    nature, laws and composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far
    science will take us. I lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive
    empiricism.


     IMHO, 'material' owns it - 'reality'-wise anyhow.

     However the Quality Of Life depends on what we DO with that.
     It generally stops of short agreeing to the Nietzschean extreme.

     Sci-tech will eventually take us All The Way insofar as
     power over our environment. But, again, how do we FEEL
     such power and insight be used ?

     If it was easy they'd have resolved all this 25,000
     years ago.

     The Buddha understood there was a Real World - but
     WE could never ever really see/perceive it because
     of what we were, how nature put us together, our
     native environment, our IQ range. We will always
     have a key-hole view, seeing things through
     "human-colored glasses".

     Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the
     same stuff - but, maybe for political reasons, left
     off the last paragraph or two.

     ANYWAY, at the cold cold root - it's just all
     superstrings hummin' ... calculating a 'reality'
     as WE can sorta perceive it. Wolfram seems to
     have grasped this.


    I pretty much agree with you. Not much to add. Interesting that this is
    your interpretation of Nietzsche. Mine is very similar. I would add, that
    Nietzsches philosophy is his own attempt, and that every person needs to
    make it "his own".

    Tying that to politics, I think it was Ludwig von Mises who wrote in his
    classic "Liberalism" (and this is liberalism in its original meaning, not
    the bastardized US meaning of the term, so think libertarianism),
    somethings along the lines of...

    Liberalism [libertarianism] is nothing more than the scientific view and
    method of how to structure society in such a way as to maximize material
    wealth and quality of life. Beyond maximizing material wealth, it makes no >> other claims or sets no other goals.

    So what you, as an individual, do with that wealth, if you use that to
    purchase time (work less) and what you fill that time with, is entirely up >> to you.

    I believe that this is why many people find libertarianism so scary. They
    have no inherent sense of value or goals. They need the goals pushed on
    them from the outside (equality, sustainability, be a cog wheel in the
    machine of the nation, the prosperity and success of the race, etc.) in
    order to feel meaning in their life.

    When they have an ism that does not push any form of value, but only wants >> to create time for people to flourish, since they are not self directed
    from within, they cannot make any sense at all of it, and it scares them at >> a deep level.

    That is why I think that the human psychology is not really ready for
    libertarianism, as long as the majority of humans are drawn to religions
    and isms in order for an external person to supply them with goals and
    values.

    I think this hits the nail on the head. Socialism now occupies the space left by the demise of Christianity.

    A sharp Jewish girlfriend of mine once observed that 'the people need to be told what is right and what is wrong, and how they should behave otherwise they simply don't know what to do'

    But they are increasingly realising that socialism too, has feet of clay.
    And I do not entirely agree that people cannot accept a reality without ideology.

    Libertarianism/pragmatism/conservatism can simply say that it deliberately restricts its activities to ensuring law, order, prosperity and social stability and is 'ultra vires' when it comes to determining moral behaviour.

    And leave that to religion or the BBC

    Yes, let's hope that people will shed socialism, just like they once shed christianity. I think it partly has already started, since socialism is
    running out of weak groups to fire up against the rich. The richer we
    become, the less of a grip socialism has on the lower classes.

    That is why they are scrambling for new fronts such as the environment and immigration (import a new lower class and start again from the 1800:s).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Rich on Sat Dec 7 18:39:42 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
    Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>>>>> who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40 >>>>>> floppies.

    When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and
    browsed the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an
    install CD. I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up
    starting out with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several
    years (and upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required
    lots of application builds from source, which grew tiresome.


    Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot of bad, in that.
    You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...

    But I'm not 16 anymore.

    Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind
    _some_ tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16 anymore
    and I have a business to run, so this I will remove from the list of
    my opensuse replacements.

    Don't take the word of our nymshift troll 100%. Yes, Slackware is more
    hands on than a full on "hold your hand, you are an idiot" distro such
    as Ubuntu. But it is a far cry better than it was back in the "50
    floppies to install days". A default install of slack 15, picking "everything" gives you in most cases on normal hardware a working
    useful system -- and if you leave KDE "on" in the list of "everything"
    even gets you a "hold your hand, you are an idiot" desktop environment
    too.

    Where Slackware is more 'raw' than a Unbuntu is that if you want to
    modify, say, your default name search path or default name server, you
    simply edit /etc/resolv.conf instead of launching whatever GUI
    'configurator' it is that Ubuntu provides to poke at tabs and entries
    to make the change.

    Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on opensuse and
    I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)

    Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you are
    saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my machines! =D

    And for that one, the install script asks you for the details as part
    of the install, so if you give the correct data at that time (same data
    you'd poke into the Ubuntu GUI configurator) then you don't even need
    to edit /etc/resolv.conf.

    There's an old quote that came about from the net long ago:

    Learn Ubuntu and you learn Ubuntu, learn Slackware and you learn Linux.

    I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the config file
    way to my students, and am furious when I learned that the teacher who got
    the job after me, taught the students how to manage linux with _only_ the
    GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing them to miss out a lot about how the
    system actually works, and how it was design to work. =(

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Ahlstrom@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 12:48:04 2024
    The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    On 07/12/2024 15:18, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>>> me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.

    Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
    knee operations fail.

    Sometimes fatally

    How so? Infection?

    Mainly as I understand it, yes.

    I've had two hip replacements and have 3 plates holding up my neck.

    Hips are far more successful, >95% no problems at all

    Actually, mine were about 9 years ago. Apparently they've gotten a lot
    less intrusive these days.

    I had one cervical plate put in years ago, and play soccer, often as
    goalkeeper. The hits to the head apparently lead to removal of the first plate
    and the installation of 3.

    Again, not problematic.

    Mmmmkay. I had to spend about 6 months in an ungainly neck brace, while
    wearing an electrical stimulator harness for four hours per day.
    At least I could walk. Though once I trip and fell and thought, on the way down, "this can't be good". Luckily, the only damage was blood streaming down my knee. I kept walking.

    --
    Bumper sticker:
    All the parts falling off this car are of the very finest
    British manufacture.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Ahlstrom@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 12:44:27 2024
    The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!

    I guess you are one after all.

    You seem to come to conclusions based on little to no evidence.

    Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
    idiocracy begins.

    Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats?

    Idiocrats *and* anarchists

    Thank you for that admission.

    And its the Left who are going to get sliced into bacon.

    How about centrists like myself?

    You sure have a way with violent turns of phrase.

    --
    Being a BALD HERO is almost as FESTIVE as a TATTOOED KNOCKWURST.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 18:10:04 2024
    On 07/12/2024 16:50, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 20:40, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:

    I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
    mean,
    a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of
    which
    we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably,
    never
    will)
    determine the nature of it.

    It's all water.


    Nonsense! Ether!

    Its all in the mind.
    Whose mind? I cancel that question! MY mind!

    Or would that be just.... mind? ;)

    Ah, that of course is another unprovable metaphysic: Monism. We are
    all God and it's his/our/my imagination at work.

    Jolly cute, but ultimately fucking useless.


    --
    "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
    let them."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 18:32:05 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:52:04 +0100, D wrote:

    If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in scientific circles?

    I feel left out. The Wiki blurb said the Wolfram language was included on
    the Raspberry Pi. As far as I can tell that applied to Raspian but not the Raspberry Pi OS. I don't need another rabbit hole anyway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sat Dec 7 18:35:38 2024
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot of bad, in
    that. You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...

    But I'm not 16 anymore.

    Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind
    _some_ tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16
    anymore and I have a business to run, so this I will remove from
    the list of my opensuse replacements.

    Don't take the word of our nymshift troll 100%. Yes, Slackware is
    more hands on than a full on "hold your hand, you are an idiot"
    distro such as Ubuntu. But it is a far cry better than it was back
    in the "50 floppies to install days". A default install of slack
    15, picking "everything" gives you in most cases on normal hardware
    a working useful system -- and if you leave KDE "on" in the list of
    "everything" even gets you a "hold your hand, you are an idiot"
    desktop environment too.

    Where Slackware is more 'raw' than a Unbuntu is that if you want to
    modify, say, your default name search path or default name server, you
    simply edit /etc/resolv.conf instead of launching whatever GUI
    'configurator' it is that Ubuntu provides to poke at tabs and entries
    to make the change.

    Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
    opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
    saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)

    Yes. Slackware is the nearest to just being Linux of all the distros
    (that install Linux, some of the FreeBSD's may be similar). If your
    preference is to edit /etc/resolv.conf to adjust your default name
    server, and edit /etc/init.d to change the default bootup, and so
    forth, it is more what you may be looking for than the others (all of
    which add varing levels a "you are an idiot, here let me hold your hand
    via this custom GUI" system on top).

    Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
    are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my machines!
    =D

    Tis free to download, and you can install it into a VM if you wish to
    'test out' at first (and don't have a spare machine to devote to
    'testout').

    It also is one of the few left that is systemd free. And instead of
    the SYSV infinite field of symlinks for init, Slackware uses BSD style
    rc.d scripts (actual scripts you can edit). The provenance of SYSV
    sysmlink fields means it also will support those if you want, but the
    default is actual scripts that execute other scripts.

    And for that one, the install script asks you for the details as
    part of the install, so if you give the correct data at that time
    (same data you'd poke into the Ubuntu GUI configurator) then you
    don't even need to edit /etc/resolv.conf.

    There's an old quote that came about from the net long ago:

    Learn Ubuntu and you learn Ubuntu, learn Slackware and you learn Linux.

    I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the config
    file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that the
    teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to manage
    linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing them to
    miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how it was
    design to work. =(

    And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE students,
    who only "know Ubuntu" (assuming they used Ubuntu) and the "Ubuntu way"
    and if tossed into a "non Ubuntu" system, become lost, because they
    really did not learn how things worked behind the "lipstick on a pig
    GUI".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 18:37:26 2024
    On 07/12/2024 17:24, D wrote:
    It would hardly be the first time in human history that we go through
    some kind of dark age, only to come out of it and eventually pick up
    speed towards new highs.

    I think perhaps the future consists of multi-polar, virtual communities, hiding in plain sight. The wokists do their thing, crash a society or
    two, get thrown out, things start to improve, until the next group comes along, generating an anti-group and so on.

    A quick glance at the 'iron law of oligarchy' is revealing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy


    Meanwhile, in cyberspace, all the cool kids gather, learn, help each
    other out.

    Or get cancelled because their views represent a threat to the
    established elites.

    Of course, since we have about 190+ countries or so, some will be more successful than others, and the interesting thing there is if they will
    be pressured by the failing ones to submit and share their wealth or if
    they will manage to somehow stay independent. I think the size of them
    would determine the outcome. Monaco and Liechtenstein have been able to survive longer than some modern european democracies, so it is not impossible, although difficult.

    One of the great reasons I dislike the European Union is precisely
    because it seeks to impose, by force, a monolithic 'European culture'
    whereas in times of crisis, the last thing you want is to be on a ship
    with no watertight doors - if the ship gets holed, down we all go.

    We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some
    experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.

    But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?


    --
    All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
    all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
    fully understood.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 18:31:34 2024
    On 07/12/2024 16:57, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:20, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:

    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that >>>>> theme.  But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real
    world
    as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or >>>>> false.

    Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
    Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats. Ultimately
    'cat'
    is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of anything.

    https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf >>>>
    Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...

    Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his
    position on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up
    and meditate". ;)

    There are states of mind that can be achieved that clarify  why people
    started talking about gods and spirits and other realms in the first
    place.


    On the other hand, I do not know if this is what he actually thought,
    or if it is just hearsay.

    Does it matter?

    The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense,
    in that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible
    or meaningless event.

    The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
    reality of words to a reality beyond them.


    I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and
    although it was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was
    that original buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating,
    so heavily meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.

    Buddhism is what one bloke said after he had successfully stopped his
    mind from thinking but yet wasn't actually unconscious. And a set of
    instructions on how to copy his techniques.

    I met a guy once who spent a long time doing that, who had also taken
    LSD He claimed that 'the end result is the same, but the LSD is much
    easier, and a bit more dangerous'.

    :-)

    Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
    adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor
    the techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with,
    and that is why it started to diverge over the millennia.

    Yes. If you regard the primary purpose as detaching the consciousness
    from the intricate entanglement with ordinary affairs, which as far as
    I am concerned is all that it is, then the method will differ for each
    individual since their involvements all differ.

    Stopping the incessant flow of internal conversation is the name of
    the game, and it's (meditation)  not the only way to do that. Trauma
    does it. Isolation and asceticism does it. Self punishment
    (flagellation) allegedly does it. Even lack of sleep does it. Some
    drugs do it.

    I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death experiences as well.

    The ultimate trauma...

    That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms are
    now starting to become so common, if there's something to be gained by
    doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind with external
    drugs?

    Depends on the person. Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact...

    There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then unable
    to cope with daily life.

    "Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After
    enlightenment chopping wood, fetching water"

    :-)


    The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about underground trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
    merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again.

    Bliss junkies.

    It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out
    with that for my last operation. Wow!

    Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for decades,
    and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving man, with enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and helping people.

    Indeed.

    The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his dose
    of spirituality.

    Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.

    There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't
    guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad
    one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.

    Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the other method?

    Depends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive any
    drug. But weak people are attracted.



    I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an
    underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards he
    felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even hesitated
    to kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect started to
    wear off as life came back.

    Psychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find
    alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution,
    but your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they are
    a tool to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the
    modification will hold.

    This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely
    permanently 'enlightened'


    I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.

    For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)

    "In my life, I have travelled many paths,
    into the bush and out of it
    But I am not anywhere.
    For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart
    On any path with heart
    And their I travel looking breathlessly"

    "But how can one know a path with heart?"

    "Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question"



    --
    "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
    let them."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 18:40:40 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:27:09 +0100, D wrote:

    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
    they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatment/total-knee-replacement/

    Pretty common. I know a couple of people who have had it. Not a
    replacement but I have a gamma nail in my hip after a fall on ice a couple
    of years ago. The rehab took a couple of months but I have not problem
    hiking or doing my usual activities. It doesn't let me forget it's there though.

    When I was a kid my grandmother broke her hip. They might as well have
    taken her out and shot her. The mechanical aspects of medical technology
    have really made progress. I'm not sure about the drugs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 18:39:41 2024
    On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And
    unbeknownst to
    me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting.  I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me.  This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.


    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no
    idea they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
    operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
    pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.

    I went to her funeral.

    Other people end up with amputations.

    Hip replacements are very successful though.

    Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver
    antibiotics to the wound site

    Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of
    life, my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having
    struggled with very painful cancer treatment for several years.

    Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic
    incurable conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and
    keep going. Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.



    --
    Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
    people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
    they are poor.

    Peter Thompson

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 18:45:05 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
    the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
    arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam. Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.

    I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
    times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about
    humans.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 18:46:08 2024
    On 07/12/2024 17:33, D wrote:
    The richer we become, the less of a grip socialism has on the lower
    classes.

    That is why they are scrambling for new fronts such as the environment
    and immigration (import a new lower class and start again from the 1800:s).

    A novel perspective.

    Socialism relies on fresh victims to champion (but never actually fix),
    their victimhood., If they cease to be victims, why would they support Socialism?


    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 18:43:39 2024
    On 07/12/2024 17:30, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:43, D wrote:
    This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer and
    socialism.
    After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will
    be a
    coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is
    now with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden
    democrats.

    I pretty much agree with that.
    The tories had forgot to be conservative, and so they got kicked out.
    The socialists are predictably beyond incompetence, and in 4 years
    time they will go.

    I am not sure what the outcome will be but the country needs, wants,
    and will ultimately vote for, an end to wokeness and political
    ideology and a return to some sort of competent management...

    Kemi Badenoch is making all the right noises for the Tories, but can
    she repair the damage?

    I'd say it depends on how much of a fighter she is.
    Og she is tough. And at some level a software engineer too. I rather
    like her.

    She needs to kick
    out the old guard, and start afresh. She also needs to balance and
    respect the wishes of Farage.

    Farage is just a spokesman. He represents people he has talked to. He
    has no wishes as such. And sadly, because I like the bloke, he is
    drifting out of touch.

    There is more wrong than uncontrolled immigration

    the swedish coalition has lasted more than
    2 years now, and that coalition includes the swedish (socialist) liberal party who are so afraid of losing their seats (and money) in a new
    election, that they have been bullied to "shut up" by the nationalists.

    Bullying socialists should be an Olympic sport.

    They have 2.8% and the nationalists have about 20%, so they are always
    saying "let's do it, let's have an election and see if you will last".
    This threat is remarkably effective at stopping the (socialist) liberal
    party from toppling the coalition.


    --
    Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
    people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
    they are poor.

    Peter Thompson

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Chris Ahlstrom on Sat Dec 7 18:47:49 2024
    On 07/12/2024 17:44, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!

    I guess you are one after all.

    You seem to come to conclusions based on little to no evidence.
    I think I learnt that from Marxism


    Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
    idiocracy begins.

    Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats? >>
    Idiocrats *and* anarchists

    Thank you for that admission.

    And its the Left who are going to get sliced into bacon.

    How about centrists like myself?

    I dount you are a centrist. I suspect you are simply a shade to thee
    right of Trotsky

    You sure have a way with violent turns of phrase.


    I learnt it from the Marxists

    --
    "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
    and understanding".

    Marshall McLuhan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 19:07:02 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:30:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    To do that level of damage requires a bit more than even a high velocity
    .22 can manage. I believe those have a tendency to go straight through.

    There has been a good deal of development over the years to get reliable expansion. Even the .22 LR has seen improvements.

    https://www.cci-ammunition.com/uppercut/the-new-defender.html

    CCI worked with the FBI spec ballistic gelatin to get reliable expansion.
    The rounds don't expand in the more popular clear gelatin so it comes down
    to which test more accurately represents the human body. They are a far
    cry from .223 rounds but make .22 LR a little more feasible for self
    defense.

    Even the traditional lever action calibers have seen work to improve their performance and overcome the restrictions of tubular magazines.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 19:14:25 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:20:51 +0100, D wrote:

    I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although
    it was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that original buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
    meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.

    Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
    adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that
    is why it started to diverge over the millennia.

    There are many flavors. The original Theravada wasn't speculative.

    https://sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits013.htm

    Mahayana picked up a lot of Hindu metaphysics and became more ornate. The Tibetan branch really gets into it. But then it circles back with Ch'an
    and Zen to become more stripped down.

    Of course in common practice you get the usual mythology and rituals.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 19:10:03 2024
    On 07/12/2024 18:45, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
    the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
    arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
    Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.

    I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
    times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about humans.

    Yes.

    Humans became aware that Great Forces existed, capable of wiping out civilisations on a whim. Disease, famine, war - all these struck with
    no discernible reason. It must be some bastards of Gods who were clearly
    not nice kind people at all. No matter how many offerings you left for
    them.

    The concept of a god who actually gave a shit was relatively late to the
    game, and proved extremely helpful in getting barbarians to play nice
    with each other and submit to Roman overlords "you will all get your
    rewards in heaven: Don't expect any now".

    We just muddle through. Until we don't.

    We bemoan the fact that so many people are so stupid, and fail to
    envision the utter chaos that would ensue if they were not.


    --
    A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
    its shoes.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sat Dec 7 08:17:33 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 00:55:10 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the same stuff - but,
    maybe for political reasons, left off the last paragraph or two.

    Then he went off he deep end with Platonic realism and set Western thought
    to chasing its tail for 2000 years.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 19:16:29 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:43:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in
    that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or meaningless event.

    The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
    reality of words to a reality beyond them.

    The koans are criticized and being meaningless riddles. otoh you have
    Heidegger trying to talk about things that can't be talked about with neologisms.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 19:20:02 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 17:57:36 +0100, D wrote:

    For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)

    Try Nagarjuna's tetralemma. His Mūlamadhyamakakārikā[ is good for a
    little mind bending.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 19:21:19 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 07/12/2024 10:20, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:

    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on
    that theme.  But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the
    real world as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics,
    math, true or false.

    Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
    Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats.
    Ultimately 'cat' is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of
    anything.

    https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf

    Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...

    Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his
    position on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up
    and meditate". ;)

    There are states of mind that can be achieved that clarify why
    people started talking about gods and spirits and other realms in the
    first place.

    Some portion of the "why" for gods and spirits can also be seen from
    the Arthur C. Clarke quote:

    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
    magic".

    To proto-humans, living in caves, with predators at every turn,
    something like the lightning from a thunderstorm would seem to be an "unimaginably advanced technology" and so appear as "magic" and in
    order to try to "explain" its existence it becomes easy to pass it off
    as some "sky spirit" that is "unhappy" with what Grog did earlier
    today. Let that continue for a millenia and you get all the modern
    'sky spirits' that continue to be followed by many today.

    We, today, understand lightning as just a huge static electricity
    discharge. But that understanding rests on a lot of "shoulders of
    giants" along the way to the scientific discoverys necessary to
    understand why it occurs.

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 19:34:46 2024
    On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
    me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.

    Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
    knee operations fail.

    Sometimes fatally

    Sepsis is always bad news. But there are a lot of measures being
    taken to avoid this.

    I think things are a lot better nowadays. Our local hospital seems
    to have it down to a science, and I've heard far more success stories
    than failures.

    As for me, I'm on my second day after the procedure. I'm kicking back
    and relaxing, and doing those stretching exercises to get things back
    to normal. It'll take a while. Painkillers help.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 19:37:26 2024
    On 07/12/2024 19:16, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:43:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in
    that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or
    meaningless event.

    The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
    reality of words to a reality beyond them.

    The koans are criticized and being meaningless riddles. otoh you have Heidegger trying to talk about things that can't be talked about with neologisms.

    Heidegger was a total asshole. I think everything he said can probably
    safely be ignored.


    --
    "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
    and understanding".

    Marshall McLuhan

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 19:57:02 2024
    On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some
    experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.

    But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?

    Because democracy is also ending in failure.

    There's probably a good essay someone could write around the concept
    of the Final Vote. That's when a democratic society decides to vote
    away their freedom and install a dictator.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Dec 7 19:56:27 2024
    On 07/12/2024 19:34, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>> me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.

    Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
    knee operations fail.

    Sometimes fatally

    Sepsis is always bad news. But there are a lot of measures being
    taken to avoid this.

    I think things are a lot better nowadays. Our local hospital seems
    to have it down to a science, and I've heard far more success stories
    than failures.

    Well my horror stories are from the early noughties and 20teens...

    Stuff does progress fast. Back in the day when I asked 'what are the
    long term effects of this chemotherapy the nurse had the decency to say
    'no one knows:its only been with us for about 12 years, but its raised
    the 5 year survival rate from 60% to 97%'

    That was around 15 years ago...

    As for me, I'm on my second day after the procedure. I'm kicking back
    and relaxing, and doing those stretching exercises to get things back
    to normal. It'll take a while. Painkillers help.

    Painkillers are sometimes mandatory. Even if just to let you sleep.

    I am faced with possibly a year or more of physio from the last
    operation to try and turn my left bicep from a bit of wet string back
    into muscles.

    Now that the nerves are almost working again.

    --
    "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
    look exactly the same afterwards."

    Billy Connolly

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Sat Dec 7 19:49:54 2024
    On 07/12/2024 19:21, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 07/12/2024 10:20, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:

    Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on
    that theme.  But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the
    real world as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics,
    math, true or false.

    Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
    Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats.
    Ultimately 'cat' is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of
    anything.

    https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf >>>>
    Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...

    Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his
    position on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up
    and meditate". ;)

    There are states of mind that can be achieved that clarify why
    people started talking about gods and spirits and other realms in the
    first place.

    Some portion of the "why" for gods and spirits can also be seen from
    the Arthur C. Clarke quote:

    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
    magic".

    To proto-humans, living in caves, with predators at every turn,
    something like the lightning from a thunderstorm would seem to be an "unimaginably advanced technology" and so appear as "magic" and in
    order to try to "explain" its existence it becomes easy to pass it off
    as some "sky spirit" that is "unhappy" with what Grog did earlier
    today. Let that continue for a millenia and you get all the modern
    'sky spirits' that continue to be followed by many today.

    We, today, understand lightning as just a huge static electricity
    discharge. But that understanding rests on a lot of "shoulders of
    giants" along the way to the scientific discoverys necessary to
    understand why it occurs.

    Absolutely, but I meant a bit more than that. There was a guy - probably
    still is - who considered that all religions were descendants of
    shamanism. And shamanism itself was an attempt to shrug off what we
    would call the normal states of mind and investigate other ones,
    typically interpreted as the realms of spirit, encounters with the Great
    Spirit or the Dream Time.

    Use of hypnotic drumming, psychedelic herbs and fungi and so on was all
    part of it. And what they found there, became the substance of religious
    myths. Watered down sanitised and popularised for reasons of social
    control and cohesion.

    And the things such as lightning were, they concluded, from that place.
    Another realm where great forces played out.

    The same realm that now contains 'natural laws' - these are precisely
    what they called gods and spirits, as you say. What Kant called 'the
    noumenal world' - the realm of causes, as opposed to effects, which is
    the phenomenal world.
    So the idea of a 'separate realm' where 'causes live' persists today.
    Although we commonly mash it into the material world as if the
    existence of 'gravity' were equivalent to the existence of a hamburger.

    Instead of one being data and the other metadata...




    --
    Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
    – Will Durant

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to Rich on Sat Dec 7 19:57:04 2024
    On 2024-12-07, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

    And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE students,

    I hear that there are now additional certifications beyond MSCE and MSCD:

    MSCC - Microsoft Certified Crashers
    MSCB - Microsoft Certified Buyers

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 19:57:03 2024
    On 2024-12-07, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
    the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
    arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
    Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.

    I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
    times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about humans.

    Sounds like 21st-century oligarchs.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Dec 7 20:16:25 2024
    On 07/12/2024 19:57, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some
    experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.

    But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?

    Because democracy is also ending in failure.

    There's probably a good essay someone could write around the concept
    of the Final Vote. That's when a democratic society decides to vote
    away their freedom and install a dictator.

    The Iron law of Oligarchy.

    Democracy isn't failing so much as elected representatives dislike the insecurity and work to subvert it.


    --
    "Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace, community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
    "What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

    "Jeremy Corbyn?"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 22:57:00 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:42, D wrote:
    The thing is... should we ever prove any of it, which is not done, it will >> all just be added to our concept of the "material world" (caveat emptor,
    and definitions aside) and expand it and enrich our model of it.

    That is your credo - your religion.
    I do not ascribe to it.

    And I respect that. I disagree, it is not a religion, it is a description
    of the real world we actually live in, that is reality.

    I know you do not ascribe to it. You have not managed to persuade me of
    your point, and likewise, I have not persuaded you of my point.

    I agree to disgree. Do you? ;)

    Already quantum physics makes the 'material world' some sort of emergent property of a natural dice throwing quagmire of sub atomicity. To the point where calling it a 'material world' seems a bit impertinent.

    I merely say that to consider that the material world is just an emergent property of quantum soup *and* human consciousness, is more flexible and useful..

    Regardless, it is still part of an expanding material world. When I say material, you need to stop thinking "material" and start thinking about
    reality as a totality, that we get to know better and better.

    Quantum mechanics can progress, we are all energy, or strings, I really do
    not care, because that is just part of our material world, that we explore through the method and process of science.

    It doesn't matter how hard one twists or turns, or looks to quantum
    theorists, what ever they find out, will just enlarge our understanding of
    the material world, or the universe, or the totality or what ever you want
    to call it.

    I don't 'believe it to be 'true' because I cant believe *anything* to be true.

    That is a self refuting position. Because that statement in itself, would
    be a truth you do subscribe to.

    It's models, not turtles, all the way down. Models whose sole justification is that they work well enough for us to think them and not die prematurely.

    True. But a model does not imply that there is no material world. In fact,
    the success of our models is a strong proof of a material world.

    That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying externality
    ... quantum, arguments we've been through before...
    I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your thinking.

    I think that is insulting. Stop ascribing motivations or putting words in
    my mouth. If you do not, I will reverse the process, and we will end up killfiling each other or angrily ignoring each other. I would not like for
    that to happen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 22:48:38 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms to >> make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a bunch of
    nice stories.

    Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position here.

    What do you mean by 'really exist' ?

    With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the material world. As existing, I mean as a pattern of electrons in a brain.
    So depending on what you prefer, either yes or no.

    Do a persons hurt feelings 'really exist'? Or are they just pulling your strings?

    See above. They exist as electrons in a brain.

    Metaphysics is the study of the assumptions we make about everything in order to be able to describe and manipulate things.

    If your metaphysics and your language doesn't have room for the 50 kinds of snow that some arctic cultures can claim exists, do those types of snow exist for you? No. Do they exist at all? Arguable. It's just 'snow'.

    It is clear you have no idea what metaphysics means and are confusing it with mysticism and religion.

    Nope. It depends on the person I am talking with. With some it is
    mysticism and religion, with some, such as you, it is thought patterns. I
    have no quarrel with thought patterns, based on electrons. I have enormous quarrel with mysticist platonists.

    Please refrain from telling me what I am confusing it with. I'd much
    rather you asked me or probe further. I find it annoying when you
    attribute things to me, and I think that is probably why our previous discussion escalated.

    Sure, religion is a form of metaphysics, but *so is science*.

    No, science is a method. It is far, far from religion. I do not share your opinion or definition here.

    Religion is the study of a world that includes a supernatural component. Science is the study of one that does not.

    I disagree. Religions are fairy tales. Science is a method and a process.
    Not a study. We simply disagree about definitions here. I suggest we drop
    it.

    Religion: The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe.

    Science is defined as the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world through a systematic
    methodology based on evidence.

    Those are my definitions, and I disagree with yours. So if you are arguing
    from different definitions, we will never agree. I think that's pretty
    obvious.

    The question of whether or not there is a supernatural component is proved by neither. In the end you assume what you assume, have faith in it and proceed to collect $200 and avoid going to jail, so to speak.

    It is not something that needs to be proven. By definition, anything
    outside the world, cannot be proven inside the world, and hence is
    inherently nonsensical, like one of my examples of metaphysics above.
    The real world, and all in it, has been proven by G.E. Moore. We have already been over this, we disagreed violently, and I will _not_ waste my time repeating
    the exact same discussion.

    I have no intrinsic problem with 'materialism' apart from the fact that like religion, it is a remarkably narrow and exclusive view and wholly unsatisfactory in the limit, and like religion, insists it is the One True Fact.

    I disagree, per the above. I think materialism is the most honest, and inclusive position we have. It is also a rich position, and one that is constantly expanding, to include more and more. Religion, as per my
    definition, is again nonsense, apart from the pragmatic interpretation of
    if it helps you, or the materialistic interpretation (like metaphysics) as thought patterns in the brain, and at the end of the day, electrons.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 23:07:50 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death
    experiences as well.

    The ultimate trauma...

    Yes, and boy is it fascinating!

    That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms are now >> starting to become so common, if there's something to be gained by doing it >> the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind with external drugs?

    Depends on the person. Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact...

    True. I would very much like to try, but I have madness in the distant family and I do not want to take any risk of jarring the good, old brain since it might
    be latent in me.

    There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then unable to cope with daily life.

    This is another interesting thought experiment. We tend to sanctify saints, saying they are the paragon of humanity. But would all of us becoing saints really be a good end station for humanity?

    If I look at monks and monasteries, they decide (for the love of humanity) to move away and pray. If you look at saintly figures among the monks (the "rock stars" of spirituality) they tend to withdraw even more, and the brothers take care of them.

    Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human species would
    just slowly fade away.

    "Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After enlightenment chopping wood, fetching water"

    :-)

    True. From where is that quote?

    The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about underground
    trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
    merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again.

    Bliss junkies.

    It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out with that for my last operation. Wow!

    Yes, it does sound like junkies. They are only there for the instant effects, and not for the goal (to find god). I think, but am not sure, that buddha strongly warned against blissful states, spiritual experiences, esp and so on, and said "just keep on meditating and do not let yourself be distracted by that".

    It would make a lot of sense if that is what he said, and it would also make me think that in fact, bliss junkies is exactly what they are, and that it might actually be harmful for them in the long run, even though they run around feeling bliss all day.

    Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for decades, and >> then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving man, with enormous >> compassion, continuing with his meditation and helping people.

    Indeed.

    The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his dose of >> spirituality.

    Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.

    There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.

    I think transpersonal psychology and psychedelic therapy are trying to mitigate that, and make it for "everyone" by carefully monitoring the process and the doseages.

    Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the other
    method?

    Depends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive any drug. But weak people are attracted.

    Only one way to find out! ;)

    I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an
    underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards he
    felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even hesitated to
    kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect started to wear off >> as life came back.

    Psychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution, but your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they are a tool to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the modification will hold.

    I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering your ego, jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like the gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug, might shake it a bit so it becomes unstuck?

    This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely permanently 'enlightened'

    True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that life was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they would go to heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the church didn't forbid that way of "hacking the system"! ;)

    I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.

    For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)

    "In my life, I have travelled many paths,
    into the bush and out of it
    But I am not anywhere.
    For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart
    On any path with heart
    And their I travel looking breathlessly"

    "But how can one know a path with heart?"

    "Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question"

    From where is this quote?

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 23:09:22 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:52:04 +0100, D wrote:

    If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in
    scientific circles?

    I feel left out. The Wiki blurb said the Wolfram language was included on
    the Raspberry Pi. As far as I can tell that applied to Raspian but not the Raspberry Pi OS. I don't need another rabbit hole anyway.


    No, it is about his "new physics" (or what ever he called it, don't quite remember). He took like a year off from his company and decided to rewrite physics from the ground up, which resulted in a huge tome that he thought
    was revolutionary. I have not heard anything from the scientific
    community, so that was the background for my question.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Rich on Sat Dec 7 23:12:59 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
    opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
    saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)

    Yes. Slackware is the nearest to just being Linux of all the distros
    (that install Linux, some of the FreeBSD's may be similar). If your preference is to edit /etc/resolv.conf to adjust your default name
    server, and edit /etc/init.d to change the default bootup, and so
    forth, it is more what you may be looking for than the others (all of
    which add varing levels a "you are an idiot, here let me hold your hand
    via this custom GUI" system on top).

    Sounds great! =)

    Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
    are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my machines!
    =D

    Tis free to download, and you can install it into a VM if you wish to
    'test out' at first (and don't have a spare machine to devote to
    'testout').

    It also is one of the few left that is systemd free. And instead of
    the SYSV infinite field of symlinks for init, Slackware uses BSD style
    rc.d scripts (actual scripts you can edit). The provenance of SYSV
    sysmlink fields means it also will support those if you want, but the
    default is actual scripts that execute other scripts.

    Oh my... it just keeps getting better and better!! How come it hasn't gotten any
    attention at all??

    I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to slckware to escape their systemd problems?

    And for that one, the install script asks you for the details as
    part of the install, so if you give the correct data at that time
    (same data you'd poke into the Ubuntu GUI configurator) then you
    don't even need to edit /etc/resolv.conf.

    There's an old quote that came about from the net long ago:

    Learn Ubuntu and you learn Ubuntu, learn Slackware and you learn Linux.

    I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the config
    file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that the
    teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to manage
    linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing them to
    miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how it was
    design to work. =(

    And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE students,
    who only "know Ubuntu" (assuming they used Ubuntu) and the "Ubuntu way"
    and if tossed into a "non Ubuntu" system, become lost, because they
    really did not learn how things worked behind the "lipstick on a pig
    GUI".

    Yep, this is the sad truth. I, together with 2 colleagues, give a cloud course that's after the linux course, and we do hard core terminal work in that course.
    We've discovered that since they have a monkey as the linux teacher, we have to start from scratch in that course, thus losing valuable time. =(

    I will pray hard, that I manage to get back the linux course next autumn. That way I can prepare them properly and teach them what the terminal, files, scripting, and text files is all about! =)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 23:19:20 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 17:24, D wrote:
    It would hardly be the first time in human history that we go through some >> kind of dark age, only to come out of it and eventually pick up speed
    towards new highs.

    I think perhaps the future consists of multi-polar, virtual communities,
    hiding in plain sight. The wokists do their thing, crash a society or two, >> get thrown out, things start to improve, until the next group comes along, >> generating an anti-group and so on.

    A quick glance at the 'iron law of oligarchy' is revealing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

    Thank you, very interesting. I think in todays world, if you widen the
    concept of oligarchy to mean the "political class" is not far off the
    mark. We have politicians who have never been anything else, and the
    political office sometimes (or the job at least) is going from father to
    son for generations.

    I have often suggested that democracy should be reformed, so that you are
    only allowed one term of office in the public sector, and that's it. In addition to that, the salary of the job should be the average of the
    country, and should have as a requirement to speak english and have an
    academic degree.

    The idea is to rule out stupid people, to stop people from accumulating a network and power base from hanging around the public sector for decades,
    and to ban people who are in it for the money.

    I also like the greek way of assigning offices by lottery, and (if we
    insist on taxes) that only people who pay into the system, have any say
    about the system.

    I predict that no current politician would ever dream of changing the
    system in that way. ;)


    Meanwhile, in cyberspace, all the cool kids gather, learn, help each other >> out.

    Or get cancelled because their views represent a threat to the established elites.

    Ohh... you are talking about the internet! I'm talking about the freenet!
    ;)

    Jokes aside, the regular internet is more or less dead, and is just a tool
    for crowd control.

    I find it fascinating that small slivers of freedom exist such as usenet, mastodon and private mailinglists and chat servers.

    Of course, since we have about 190+ countries or so, some will be more
    successful than others, and the interesting thing there is if they will be >> pressured by the failing ones to submit and share their wealth or if they
    will manage to somehow stay independent. I think the size of them would
    determine the outcome. Monaco and Liechtenstein have been able to survive
    longer than some modern european democracies, so it is not impossible,
    although difficult.

    One of the great reasons I dislike the European Union is precisely because it seeks to impose, by force, a monolithic 'European culture' whereas in times of crisis, the last thing you want is to be on a ship with no watertight doors - if the ship gets holed, down we all go.

    This is true! Let a 100 governance system blossom, and let's see which
    ones are successful. My bet is on the market being the most ingenious and
    best system of managing scarce resources, ever invented. So far, it seems
    to be in the lead. ;)

    We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.

    But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?

    Don't ask me. It is one of the tragedies of our current day and age. Maybe Milei will manage to pull a miracle out of Argentina and show the world
    what it has forgotten? That markets and liberty works.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 23:23:24 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:27:09 +0100, D wrote:

    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
    they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatment/total-knee-replacement/

    Pretty common. I know a couple of people who have had it. Not a
    replacement but I have a gamma nail in my hip after a fall on ice a couple
    of years ago. The rehab took a couple of months but I have not problem
    hiking or doing my usual activities. It doesn't let me forget it's there though.

    How come? Is it like a thing you feel constantly? Doesn't that get
    annoying or is it more that you feel it if you consciously look for it,
    but you otherwise forget it?

    When I was a kid my grandmother broke her hip. They might as well have
    taken her out and shot her. The mechanical aspects of medical technology
    have really made progress. I'm not sure about the drugs.

    It seems to me that dentistry is less painful today than 30 years ago. I
    don't know if I have manned up, or if this is actually the case? On the
    other hand, I am blessed with teeth like Jaws in James Bond, since I've
    never had a cavity in my life.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 23:20:51 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>>>> me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting.  I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative, >>>>> at least for me.  This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.


    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea >>>> they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
    operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
    pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.

    I went to her funeral.

    Other people end up with amputations.

    Hip replacements are very successful though.

    Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver antibiotics >>> to the wound site

    Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of life, >> my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having struggled with >> very painful cancer treatment for several years.

    Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic incurable conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and keep going. Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.

    I will pray for that they might chance from incurable to curable with some great scientific leaps in the future!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 23:25:03 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 17:30, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:43, D wrote:
    This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer and
    socialism.
    After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will be a >>>> coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is now >>>> with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden democrats. >>>
    I pretty much agree with that.
    The tories had forgot to be conservative, and so they got kicked out. The >>> socialists are predictably beyond incompetence, and in 4 years time they >>> will go.

    I am not sure what the outcome will be but the country needs, wants, and >>> will ultimately vote for, an end to wokeness and political ideology and a >>> return to some sort of competent management...

    Kemi Badenoch is making all the right noises for the Tories, but can she >>> repair the damage?

    I'd say it depends on how much of a fighter she is.
    Og she is tough. And at some level a software engineer too. I rather like her.

    Wow! Had no idea. Will be very interesting to follow the next 4 years!

    She needs to kick out the old guard, and start afresh. She also needs to
    balance and respect the wishes of Farage.

    Farage is just a spokesman. He represents people he has talked to. He has no wishes as such. And sadly, because I like the bloke, he is drifting out of touch.

    Also interesting. I thought he was planning a come back in 4 years time. I
    also like him. He seems like a smart guy.

    There is more wrong than uncontrolled immigration

    the swedish coalition has lasted more than 2 years now, and that coalition >> includes the swedish (socialist) liberal party who are so afraid of losing >> their seats (and money) in a new election, that they have been bullied to
    "shut up" by the nationalists.

    Bullying socialists should be an Olympic sport.

    They have 2.8% and the nationalists have about 20%, so they are always
    saying "let's do it, let's have an election and see if you will last". This >> threat is remarkably effective at stopping the (socialist) liberal party
    from toppling the coalition.




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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 23:25:51 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
    the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
    arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
    Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.

    I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
    times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about humans.


    Yes... I think that an enormously impressive feat of thinking and
    philosophy for being that old. The along came Nietzsche and took the next logical step. ;)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 22:26:23 2024
    On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought
    forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's
    just a bunch of nice stories.

    Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position
    here.

    What do you mean by 'really exist' ?

    With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the material world.

    Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?


    --
    "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
    look exactly the same afterwards."

    Billy Connolly

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 23:29:16 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 17:33, D wrote:
    The richer we become, the less of a grip socialism has on the lower
    classes.

    That is why they are scrambling for new fronts such as the environment and >> immigration (import a new lower class and start again from the 1800:s).

    A novel perspective.

    Socialism relies on fresh victims to champion (but never actually fix), their victimhood., If they cease to be victims, why would they support Socialism?

    Exactly. That is why I believe that socialism morphed into the modern woke movement.

    They don't wear the label, but in essence, it is the logical continuation.
    The working classes deserted them when they became wealthy enough, so then along came the women (all men are evil), and then came the immigrants (all white men are evil) and then came the homos and on and on.

    The disadvantage for them is... that eventually the groups will starts to
    prey on each other, and infighting starts, and then the house of cards collapses. We've seen that in europe, where socialism has forgotten the
    "common man" in favour of homos, immigrants, women, eco-facists etc. and
    now it's blown up in their faces.

    As always... the extreme left and extreme right, always the populists,
    swoop in from the sidelines and wins.

    There is, however, another logical progression of the woke ideology that
    is less likely to happen. The groups keep dividing, and subdividing, until
    it reaches its logical end station were division is no longer feasible...

    ...individualism. ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 7 23:30:16 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 17:44, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

    LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!

    I guess you are one after all.

    You seem to come to conclusions based on little to no evidence.
    I think I learnt that from Marxism


    Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
    idiocracy begins.

    Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats? >>>
    Idiocrats *and* anarchists

    Thank you for that admission.

    And its the Left who are going to get sliced into bacon.

    How about centrists like myself?

    I dount you are a centrist. I suspect you are simply a shade to thee right of Trotsky

    You sure have a way with violent turns of phrase.


    I learnt it from the Marxists


    Ahh... Chris... is a total woke socialist. Blocked him ages ago. Don't
    waste your time arguing with him.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 22:30:14 2024
    On 07/12/2024 21:57, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:42, D wrote:
    The thing is... should we ever prove any of it, which is not done, it
    will all just be added to our concept of the "material world" (caveat
    emptor, and definitions aside) and expand it and enrich our model of it.

    That is your credo - your religion.
    I do not ascribe to it.

    And I respect that. I disagree, it is not a religion, it is a
    description of the real world we actually live in, that is reality.

    I know you do not ascribe to it. You have not managed to persuade me of
    your point, and likewise, I have not persuaded you of my point.

    I agree to disgree. Do you? ;)

    Already quantum physics makes the 'material world' some sort of
    emergent property of a natural dice throwing quagmire of sub
    atomicity. To the point where calling it a 'material world' seems a
    bit impertinent.

    I merely say that to consider that the material world is just an
    emergent property of quantum soup *and* human consciousness, is more
    flexible and useful..

    Regardless, it is still part of an expanding material world. When I say material, you need to stop thinking "material" and start thinking about reality as a totality, that we get to know better and better.

    Quantum mechanics can progress, we are all energy, or strings, I really
    do not care, because that is just part of our material world, that we
    explore through the method and process of science.

    It doesn't matter how hard one twists or turns, or looks to quantum theorists, what ever they find out, will just enlarge our understanding
    of the material world, or the universe, or the totality or what ever you
    want to call it.

    I don't 'believe it to be 'true' because I cant believe *anything* to
    be true.

    That is a self refuting position. Because that statement in itself,
    would be a truth you do subscribe to.

    That is the trouble with your brain.

    It thinks in Boolean logic. In literal terms,


    It's models, not turtles, all the way down. Models whose sole
    justification is that they work well enough for us to think them and
    not die prematurely.

    True. But a model does not imply that there is no material world. In
    fact, the success of our models is a strong proof of a material world.


    I never said there wasn't a material world, juts that is nothing like
    what you think of as 'the material world' which is a figment of the
    imagination


    That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying
    externality
    ... quantum, arguments we've been through before...
    I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your
    thinking.

    No. the need for security exists in almost everyone. People want simple
    truths. Certainties. The certainty of God, The certainty of a 'material
    world'. The certainty of 'social justice'



    I think that is insulting. Stop ascribing motivations or putting words
    in my mouth. If you do not, I will reverse the process, and we will end
    up killfiling each other or angrily ignoring each other. I would not
    like for that to happen.

    :-)


    --
    "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
    look exactly the same afterwards."

    Billy Connolly

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 23:35:10 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:20:51 +0100, D wrote:

    I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although
    it was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that original
    buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
    meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.

    Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
    adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the
    techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that
    is why it started to diverge over the millennia.

    There are many flavors. The original Theravada wasn't speculative.

    https://sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits013.htm

    Mahayana picked up a lot of Hindu metaphysics and became more ornate. The Tibetan branch really gets into it. But then it circles back with Ch'an
    and Zen to become more stripped down.

    Of course in common practice you get the usual mythology and rituals.


    This aligns with my perception as well. Zen, or chan, circling back trying
    to "purify" it. Makes me wonder if some people are just naturally good at meditation? Some seem to continue year after year without any results,
    while other ninjas, seem to go far, pretty quick.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 23:36:46 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:43:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in
    that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or
    meaningless event.

    The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
    reality of words to a reality beyond them.

    The koans are criticized and being meaningless riddles. otoh you have Heidegger trying to talk about things that can't be talked about with neologisms.


    I saw a documentary where an abbott said that she uses (abbess?) the
    students answer to the koan to gauge the students spiritual progress.
    Somehow that feels so strange to me, since enlightenment is an individual phenomenon, so how can you build a "scale" based on the answer to
    nonsensical questions? On the other hand, I'm not a student of zen.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 22:37:36 2024
    On 07/12/2024 22:07, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death
    experiences as well.

    The ultimate trauma...

    Yes, and boy is it fascinating!

    That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms
    are now starting to become so common, if there's something to be
    gained by doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind
    with external drugs?

    Depends on the person.  Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or
    revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact...

    True. I would very much like to try, but I have madness in the distant
    family
    and I do not want to take any risk of jarring the good, old brain since
    it might
    be latent in me.

    There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then
    unable to cope with daily life.

    This is another interesting thought experiment. We tend to sanctify saints, saying they are the paragon of humanity. But would all of us becoing saints really be a good end station for humanity?

    If I look at monks and monasteries, they decide (for the love of
    humanity) to
    move away and pray. If you look at saintly figures among the monks (the
    "rock
    stars" of spirituality) they tend to withdraw even more, and the
    brothers take
    care of them.

    Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human
    species would
    just slowly fade away.

    "Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After
    enlightenment chopping wood, fetching water"

    :-)

    True. From where is that quote?

    Standard Zen shit I think


    The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about underground
    trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
    merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again.

    Bliss junkies.

    It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out
    with that for my last operation. Wow!

    Yes, it does sound like junkies. They are only there for the instant
    effects,
    and not for the goal (to find god). I think, but am not sure, that buddha strongly warned against blissful states, spiritual experiences, esp and
    so on,
    and said "just keep on meditating and do not let yourself be distracted by that".

    Yes. Very much so.

    It would make a lot of sense if that is what he said, and it would also
    make me
    think that in fact, bliss junkies is exactly what they are, and that it
    might
    actually be harmful for them in the long run, even though they run around feeling bliss all day.

    Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for
    decades, and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving
    man, with enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and
    helping people.

    Indeed.

    The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his
    dose of spirituality.

    Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.

    There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't
    guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad
    one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.

    I think transpersonal psychology and psychedelic therapy are trying to mitigate
    that, and make it for "everyone" by carefully monitoring the process and
    the
    doseages.

    Well good luck with that. I come from a rougher and less sympathetic
    age. If you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen.



    Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the
    other method?

    Depends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive
    any drug. But weak people are attracted.

    Only one way to find out! ;)

    I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an
    underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards
    he felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even
    hesitated to kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect
    started to wear off as life came back.

    Psychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find
    alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution,
    but your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they
    are a tool to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the
    modification will hold.

    I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering
    your ego,
    jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like the gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug, might
    shake it
    a bit so it becomes unstuck?

    Mental illness from the psychedelic perspective is simply a bad
    metaphysical choice.
    People choose to believe something, perhaps not even consciously, that
    makes them dysfunctional and unhappy. But in some sense secure in their
    belief.

    "everyone is out to get me because i am in fact superior in every way,
    so I don't need to change my views at all, I am right, and they are
    simply wrong"




    This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely
    permanently 'enlightened'

    True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
    life
    was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they would
    go to
    heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the church didn't forbid
    that way of "hacking the system"! ;)

    Lol. Hacking the christian system

    I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.

    For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)

    "In my life, I have travelled many paths,
    into the bush and out of it
    But I am not anywhere.
    For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart
    On any path with heart
    And their I travel looking breathlessly"

    "But how can one know a path with heart?"

    "Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question"

    From where is this quote?

    The teachings of Don Juan - Carlos Castenada. A mixture of truth and
    fiction IMHO.

    --
    The higher up the mountainside
    The greener grows the grass.
    The higher up the monkey climbs
    The more he shows his arse.

    Traditional

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 7 23:37:46 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 17:57:36 +0100, D wrote:

    For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)

    Try Nagarjuna's tetralemma. His Mūlamadhyamakakārikā[ is good for a little mind bending.


    You guys are giving me too much to read, and too much to reply to. At the
    same time, it is not very often I find as interesting discussions on
    usenet. But sometimes it does happen. ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Dec 7 23:39:21 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
    seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>> me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
    at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.

    Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
    knee operations fail.

    Sometimes fatally

    Sepsis is always bad news. But there are a lot of measures being
    taken to avoid this.

    I think things are a lot better nowadays. Our local hospital seems
    to have it down to a science, and I've heard far more success stories
    than failures.

    As for me, I'm on my second day after the procedure. I'm kicking back
    and relaxing, and doing those stretching exercises to get things back
    to normal. It'll take a while. Painkillers help.

    I hope you will have a speedy, good and pain free recovery! =)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 7 22:40:21 2024
    On 07/12/2024 22:20, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>
    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on >>>>>>> seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And
    unbeknownst to
    me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting.  I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative, >>>>>> at least for me.  This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.


    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no
    idea they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
    operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
    pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.

    I went to her funeral.

    Other people end up with amputations.

    Hip replacements are very successful though.

    Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver
    antibiotics to the wound site

    Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of
    life, my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having
    struggled with very painful cancer treatment for several years.

    Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic
    incurable conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and
    keep going. Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.

    I will pray for that they might chance from incurable to curable with
    some great scientific leaps in the future!

    Well a major transplant of 3-4 organs and a massive break through in
    cancer might fixe them all.

    But I am not holding my breath,.
    My body is simply worn out.


    --
    Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

    "Saki"

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Dec 7 23:43:00 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-07, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

    And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE students,

    I hear that there are now additional certifications beyond MSCE and MSCD:

    MSCC - Microsoft Certified Crashers
    MSCB - Microsoft Certified Buyers

    Good one! And very true!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sun Dec 8 00:03:03 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some
    experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.

    But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?

    Because democracy is also ending in failure.

    There's probably a good essay someone could write around the concept
    of the Final Vote. That's when a democratic society decides to vote
    away their freedom and install a dictator.

    I would argue that the democracy we have today, is one of the youngest and least tested forms of governance we have. I do not consider it a
    continuation of greece, but a new, modern, system that drew some
    inspiration from greece.

    On the other hand, we all now how well it went for democracy in greece, so
    that does not bode well for us.

    The only game changer today is a globally integrated civilization and communication at the speed of thought. I'm not saying that it will affect
    how things go, but those conditions did not exist back then.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 02:06:24 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:

    I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering
    your ego,
    jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like
    the gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug,
    might shake it a bit so it becomes unstuck?

    Back in the day I did acid of dubious quality twice. The first was a bad experience, the second was better. I was alone for the second attempt.

    True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
    life was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they
    would go to heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the
    church didn't forbid that way of "hacking the system"!

    I don't think it was all that bad. People raised families and carried on obviously or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    I'm reading a series by James L. Nelson set in 852 A.D. when Dubh Linn was
    a Norse settlement. It follows a small band whose leader only wants to
    grab some Irish loot, go home to Norway, and spend his golden years
    farming. It doesn't work out that was of course.

    One of the band is a berserker. He gets morose after battles when he
    survives since he wants a heroic death in battle to attract the Valkyries
    to take him to Valhalla.

    The Christians had to make a few edits to sell their goods to a warrior culture. I think I've mentioned Russell's 'The Germanization of Early
    Medieval Christianity' and the Heliand, a Saxon poem that had Jesus as the drighten of a war band heading to the hill fort of Jerusalem. The massacre
    of the Saxons didn't get the job done so they had to come up with a better spin. We still honer Woden's Day and turning the other cheek never got
    very popular.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 01:39:48 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:

    Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human
    species would just slowly fade away.

    The dating of the Bhagavad Gita us controversial. One theory is it is not
    as old as claimed and was written after Buddhism became established.
    Gautama was a Kshatria, the warrior and administrator varna. As such, he attracted men from the same varna to lead lives as monks.

    The Gita gets more philosophical but in the beginning Arjuna is on a battlefield and is getting cold feet. His mentor, Krishna, tells him he is
    a warrior and that's what warriors do. Get with the program.

    The thought is the Gita was addressed to young Kshatriya to remind them of their role in society and not to abandon it to follow some monk.

    It will never happen but I'd really like to see Gabbard taking the
    Presidential oath of office with her hand on the Gita.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sun Dec 8 02:56:01 2024
    On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 19:57:03 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-07, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
    the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
    arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
    Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.

    I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
    times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about
    humans.

    Sounds like 21st-century oligarchs.

    Not quite. The Epicureans thought the Gods, if they existed, were
    completely uninvolved rather than causing wars, taking sides in battles, fomenting unrest, and so forth. We'd be better off if the oligarchs were
    off in the Caribbean drinking, fornicating, or whatever oligarchs do when they're not starting wars for profit.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 02:44:15 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:23:24 +0100, D wrote:

    How come? Is it like a thing you feel constantly? Doesn't that get
    annoying or is it more that you feel it if you consciously look for it,
    but you otherwise forget it?

    https://www.stryker.com/us/en/trauma-and-extremities/products/gamma3.html

    It's mostly at night if I lie on that side. The head of the lag screw
    creates a pressure point. During the day it's rarely noticeable. For
    example I put the studded winter tires on today and had no problems wuth
    all the kneeling to position the jack, sitting to guide the tire on the
    studs, standing to torque the nuts, carrying the summer tires to in back
    of the shed, etc. Over the summer I was putting on 25 to 30 miles a week, mostly on mountain trails with no problem.

    The operation itself only requires two small incisions so it's minimally intrusive. I was up with a walker the next day. I took a Tylenol before
    the excursion but didn't notice any effect so I didn't bother after that.

    It took several months to get back to normal. I spent the time in rehab researching trike conversions or sidecars for the bikes j.i.c. I started
    with a push bike to get the required range of motion. The first few
    outings weren't very graceful on the dismount but I got the hang of it.
    Both the V-Strom and DR650 are pretty tall but with the Sportster I can
    step over the saddle.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sun Dec 8 03:02:20 2024
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
    opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
    saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)

    Yes. Slackware is the nearest to just being Linux of all the
    distros (that install Linux, some of the FreeBSD's may be similar).
    If your preference is to edit /etc/resolv.conf to adjust your
    default name server, and edit /etc/init.d to change the default
    bootup, and so forth, it is more what you may be looking for than
    the others (all of which add varing levels a "you are an idiot, here
    let me hold your hand via this custom GUI" system on top).

    Sounds great! =)

    Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
    are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my
    machines! =D

    Tis free to download, and you can install it into a VM if you wish
    to 'test out' at first (and don't have a spare machine to devote to
    'testout').

    It also is one of the few left that is systemd free. And instead of
    the SYSV infinite field of symlinks for init, Slackware uses BSD
    style rc.d scripts (actual scripts you can edit). The provenance of
    SYSV sysmlink fields means it also will support those if you want,
    but the default is actual scripts that execute other scripts.

    Oh my... it just keeps getting better and better!! How come it
    hasn't gotten any attention at all??

    Likely because 99% of the "computer using public" is *lost* without the "handholding GUI".

    I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to slckware to escape their systemd problems?

    I can't answer that one. You'd have to ask them. I don't dabble in
    either. First installed Slackware back when it was the "new and
    improved SLS" (Soft Landing Systems). Have stuck with it since.

    I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the
    config file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that
    the teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to
    manage linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing
    them to miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how
    it was design to work. =(

    And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE
    students, who only "know Ubuntu" (assuming they used Ubuntu) and the
    "Ubuntu way" and if tossed into a "non Ubuntu" system, become lost,
    because they really did not learn how things worked behind the
    "lipstick on a pig GUI".

    Yep, this is the sad truth. I, together with 2 colleagues, give a
    cloud course that's after the linux course, and we do hard core
    terminal work in that course. We've discovered that since they have
    a monkey as the linux teacher, we have to start from scratch in that
    course, thus losing valuable time. =(

    Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
    changes, and they are lost again.

    I will pray hard, that I manage to get back the linux course next
    autumn. That way I can prepare them properly and teach them what the terminal, files, scripting, and text files is all about! =)

    That will reduce the lost time in the 'cloud' course just to bring them
    up to speed to begin to operate.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 03:36:03 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:36:46 +0100, D wrote:

    I saw a documentary where an abbott said that she uses (abbess?) the
    students answer to the koan to gauge the students spiritual progress.
    Somehow that feels so strange to me, since enlightenment is an
    individual phenomenon, so how can you build a "scale" based on the
    answer to nonsensical questions? On the other hand, I'm not a student of
    zen.

    Rinzai Zen is often criticized for the koan system. It might have worked
    at one point before it became formalized.

    https://www.amazon.com/Sound-One-Hand-Answers-Classics/dp/1681370220

    For only $11.99 in the Kindle edition you can get the teacher's edition.

    Soto Zen is more into just sitting (zazen).

    And then there is the Western spin. It can be traced back to Alan Watts,
    and alcoholic British expat, and through him to Christmas Humphreys, the founder of the London Buddhist Society. Then you get to Bennett, the Order
    of the Golden Dawn, Crowley, Annie Besant of the Theosophical Society, and other assorted nutters. D.T. Suzuki was also from that group and threw in
    his own spin.

    Filter it through a generation or two and you have Tricycle. Personally I prefer Rahula's take although he is often criticized as being too Western.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Buddha_Taught

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  • From Robert Riches@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sun Dec 8 04:45:10 2024
    On 2024-12-07, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    ...

    I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to slckware to escape their systemd problems?

    I might not be one of "those guys", but this is my journey as a
    refugee from systemd:

    - Based on notes and potentially fallible memory from 2013, I had
    been on Mageia 2. IIRC, it was the next version of Mageia that
    switched to systemd. I use RAIDs for main storage. My test VM
    installed fine, but when I tried to boot the test VM via
    systemd, it hung for several minutes and then booted into a
    very broken state. Some stuff (including filesystems) had
    timed out and not booted, while other stuff (including
    filesystems) had not. The tools to decipher systemd's binary
    journal (rather than plain-text logs) were not installed by
    default. The system was in "I've fallen and can't get up"
    condition. At that point, I decided I would be one of the last
    people on the planet to be using something other than systemd
    on my main machine(s).

    - I ran Debian 7 from late 2013 to mid-2018. It was great, but
    then Debian was overcome by the systemd virus, so my journey
    continued.

    - I ran Slackware 14.2 from mid-2018 to late 2018. Updates to
    the kernel were a royal pain, because the tools to generate an
    initrd with drivers for RAID are not even in IKEA-like state.
    I got tired of having to troubleshoot the manual initrd
    generation process on every kernel update. Every time,
    something else had gone wrong and needed to be figured out and
    solved. Fatigue set in.

    - In late 2018, I switched to Devuan ascii, then went to beowulf,
    then chimaera, and now daedalus.

    Along the way, I think I tried a couple of other non-systemd
    distributions. IIRC, one of them was too much like a toy, and
    another set up hardware in such a way that disks kept detaching
    and spamming system logs with messages about a disk going offline
    and being recovered, rinsing, and repeating endlessly.

    If Devuan continues to be viable, I'll probably stay here for as
    long as possible. If/when Devuan becomes non-viable, I'll try to
    find a viable Linux distribution with a variant of BSD as
    fallback.

    How's that for a long answer to a short question? :-)

    --
    Robert Riches
    spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
    (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sun Dec 8 04:52:13 2024
    On 2024-12-07, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    I think things are a lot better nowadays. Our local hospital seems
    to have it down to a science, and I've heard far more success stories
    than failures.

    As for me, I'm on my second day after the procedure. I'm kicking back
    and relaxing, and doing those stretching exercises to get things back
    to normal. It'll take a while. Painkillers help.

    I hope you will have a speedy, good and pain free recovery! =)

    Well, not quite pain-free...

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 8 00:31:44 2024
    On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
    If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
    useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary foundation of thinking.

    All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or
    not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.

    We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the
    way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand them.

    Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
    with the existing physics :-)

    I suspect 'dark matter' will occupy a similar position.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 00:28:07 2024
    On 12/7/24 5:52 AM, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
    There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him >>>>>>> so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give >>>>>>> an outlet for all that aggression.

    Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
    Science does not include them

       The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
       entirely our own inventions.

       And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.

       Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...

    More Kant-ian.

    His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the
    'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the
    objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete
    entities, they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to
    others.

    Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a
    ship doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of
    rotting bits of wood.

    (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox
    and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same
    object after having all of its original components replaced over
    time, typically one after the other.

    In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of
    Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying
    the Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year,
    the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a
    pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by
    ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of
    maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus were
    replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship? )

    Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this.
    If you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a
    problem because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus'
    Ship' in reality.

    I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem
    with this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then
    make up labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal
    heavens, concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an
    sich is an absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which
    can never be known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as
    god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that
    it refers to. Meta data. A pointer.


     Kant ?

     Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.

     OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
     chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......

     BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
     an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
     humming along with simple interaction rules -
     cellular automata math.

     Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.

     But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...


    If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in scientific circles?

    They don't like him.

    Besides, that kind of stuff is a few levels
    above the physics we use, can test.

    But it's INTERESTING.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 02:05:12 2024
    On 12/7/24 5:40 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    This is not so good. I hope IBM won't kill redhat in the end.


     Alas I think they will. As said, you are now IBMs
     beta tester. This is valuable for working out a
     number of kinks - but eventually the kinks will
     be kinda dealt with. Then RH and its downstream
     parasites will Go Away.

    This is very sad. I know a guy who is an EMEA level manager at Redhat,
    so he
    benefited from the acquisition with a nice promotion. According to him,
    what IBM
    is currently doing to destroy it is to mess around with licensing, to
    make it
    more draconian and more expensive. Ceph has moved to IBM, so that will probably
    go downhill, since IBM will always push GPFS over ceph.

    At redhat, the only things that is focused on is Openshift, as the ultimate lock-in tool, so the OS just lives to the side in its own world.


    IBM has "different motives" when it comes to Linux.

    They will use what they want to use and then trash
    the rest.

    We're in the middle of that.


    What is sad is that SUSE is doing the excat same thing. Their strategy
    seems to
    be to copy everything Redhat does, and do it worse. They now only focus on rancher, and are leaving the OS to the side. They closed down their
    openstack
    and their ceph.


    Yea, (real)SUSE isn't worth it anymore.

    Ever tried OpenIndiana - formerly Solaris ? It's
    not really Linux or Unix but "familiar". Really
    not so bad.

    And there's always Plan-9 :-)

    What they sadly don't realize is that the OS is their jewel. I would
    focus on
    that in the embedded space, they had a hueg lead in the SAP space, and
    see if I
    could grow up. But no... rancher and containers it is, and there redhat is blocking them well with openshift.


    The pointy-haired bosses are only interested
    in quick PROFITS and CONTROL. No sense of 'mission'
    beyond that.

    I greatly fear when Linus drops out of the picture.


     Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
     a bunch of Canonical rejects .....

    Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
    thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble
    musl will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about
    actually going back to some of my earliest experiments and try
    FreeBSD for day to day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I
    only need some basics, which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages,
    so if they fixed their wifi problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to
    run a small linux VM for a working wifi driver) it could definitely
    be a serious option. Oh, and that would mean it doesn't drain the
    battery as well. But let's see. I think I can stick with opensuse
    15.6 for at least another 2-3 years, and then they might kill the
    project in favuor of some container based crap.


     Deb WAS the Solid Foundation ... until now. It became
     just another 'Buntu IMHO. Tragic !

     The BSDs are "usable" - really Not Bad. However remember
     they are Unix, not Linux, so a lot of little stuff is
     different. They also tend to be a few years behind when
     it comes to drivers. The real target is SERVERS, not
     desktops.

    True. BSDs are a bit behind, but since my main use case is office + light scripting + some light servers stuff (backup, web server, etc.) BSDs
    should be
    fine I think. We will see in about 1-2 years when the time comes to leave opensuse 15.6 behind.


    The BSDs might be just perfect for your needs. They
    are NOT so perfect for other people's needs - esp
    the gigantic 'desktop' users segment who expect tons
    of eye candy, GUI everything and anything plugged-in
    to Just Work.

    I've got FreeBSD in a VM right now - to refine the
    'how to do it' trivia. DID get X and XCFE installed.
    Next step is to install on an N95 BMax mini-box and
    attach an external HD box. I'd like to use SAMBA but
    something weird CHANGED with that in the last year
    or two and I can't seem to bring up the shares -
    always permissions errors regardless. NFS works,
    but it's got less security and far fewer options.

    Hmmm ... is it possible to 'dd' a VM into a usable
    bootable image on a real machine ? I've seen various
    'answers'. MX has a utility for cloning the running
    install, it works well, but haven't seen that elsewhere.

     OpenSUSE/Tumbleweed ... DID get it to run on a Pi-4,
     albeit a bit clunky sometimes because it isn't a
     "light" distro. Pi-5s are WEIRD ... can't even get
     a Fedora for those even a year on. Apparently the
     boot-up chain of events is a huge kludge. HAVE
     found instructions - pages and pages and pages
     of them - WAY too old for that shit and half of
     it would probably disappear on the next update.

    I have a radxa zero for my kodi/tv use, and I tried to get opensuse to
    run on it
    and it was not possible. The radxa zero, being some kind of chinese
    raspberry
    copy had horrible documentation, so in the end, the only thing I managed
    to get
    working was some kind of dev snapshot of debian in their git repository.

    Well, not all PI clones are equal. DID try an Orange PI
    and Banana PI. Close ... but not QUITE the same. It'd
    depend on your exact purpose. If you NEED all the I/O
    pins then stick to PIs, esp genuine PIs. If not then
    shop BMax/BeeLink mini-boxes. Did buy another Pi just
    a few weeks ago - but it's a Pi4, not Pi5. The pre-
    BookWORM distros will run on it.

    I would loooose for raspberry to develop an updated version of the pi
    zero. That
    is what the radxa is. I have 4 GB ram and 16 GB built in flash storage
    on the
    tiniest board. It was wifi and bluetooth, and kodi and 1080p runs well
    on it.

    The P0 is an interesting variant. You could do a lot of
    useful stuff with the old Pi-1/2 boards and P0 seems to
    encapsulate that capability without much more BS.

    WiFi/BT/etc ... MIGHT take a bigger board - but the
    parts ARE getting smaller and better all the time.
    Expect a Pi0.1 eventually.

    When I retired I still had an original Pi - the one
    with fewer I/O pins - doing a simple job in the
    server room (inside an old drill-bit box). It'd been
    working since forever. DID finally update the system
    near the end, new SD card - and it still worked great.

    The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
    I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
    M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
    they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.


    If raspberry updated their zero to those specs (or beyond) I would drop the radxa in a second since I expect that the git repository will become unmaintained in a year or two.

     If you really want an alt, consider Arch and
     derivs. Endeavour is nice. Manjaro works well
     (but, like Tumbleweed, kinda updates the ENTIRE
     system at the slightest change).

    Thank you for the pointers. Have made a note of this.

    Just trying to predict the near future ... it's
    not ALL so rosy.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sun Dec 8 02:44:11 2024
    On 12/7/24 2:54 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 23:33:14 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I'm fine with Apache. You DO need to tweak more than one config file
    these days alas - and HTTPS should be just a DEFAULT alongside HTTP.

    Do it with macros. I have a setup for a client involving running about
    half a dozen virtual hosts on a single machine. Each site definition is
    only two lines in the Apache config: one for HTTP, the other for HTTPS.
    The macro for HTTP adds an automatic redirect to HTTPS if enabled by a
    single parameter setting.


    That'd work pretty good - and efficient if you wanted to
    run multiple similar servers on one box.

    Everybody seems to be pushing the newer alts. They WERE
    crap initially -toys- but they HAVE improved. Used
    Lighttpd on some PIs.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Rich on Sun Dec 8 08:09:35 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 03:02:20 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
    changes, and they are lost again.

    Then they are very poor at generalization. My various machines have
    Ubuntu, Fedora KDE spin, Lubuntu, Debian with Xfce, the Raspberry Pi OS derivative of Debian, and Windows 11. They're all different and they are
    all the same.

    The thrill of hunting down xorg.conf wherever the distro stashed it so I
    could get the right button for a left handed mouse or get a monitor
    configured sort of wore out 20 or 25 years ago.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 03:05:00 2024
    On 12/7/24 5:32 AM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

        Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
        Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, >>>>>> but,
        who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.

    Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
    floppies.

    When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
    the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
    I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
    with Slackware 3.5.  I continued with it for several years (and
    upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
    application builds from source, which grew tiresome.


     Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot
     of bad, in that. You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...

     But I'm not 16 anymore.

    Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind _some_ tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16 anymore and I have
    a business to run, so this I will remove from the list of my opensuse replacements.


    The problem with 'tweaks' is that future updates WILL
    wanna over-write half your hard work. Preventing that
    is a job unto itself.

    Anyway, Slack HAS its place - it's just not MY place.


    I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
    Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
    to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
    to move on.  I finally settled on Debian.

     Well, you COULD get past Unity ...

     My biggest objections were the 'services' they kept
     pushing hard - indeed could barely install it anymore
     without signing up (shades of M$ !). They also changed
     and/or moved around a LOT of config stuff for NO real
     gain IMHO.

     Deb - WAS the Solid Foundation - but suddenly became
     just another 'Buntu.

     So now it's Fedora and Arch derivs.

     I've heard GenToo is kinda interesting ... and
     there are always the BSDs.

    I was very impressed with FreeBSD when I tried it out 1 year ago. The
    only thing missing for me was that in order to get anything faster that G-wifi, you had to run a small alpine VM with passthrough, since native drivers did not exist for FreeBSD.

    Yep - they're "behind" in those respects. I don't
    think they even support SAMBA 3, sometimes not
    SAMBA 2. NFS works, but SAMBA has a LOT more
    fine-grained options and is much better with
    M$ workstations attached.

    Servers with conventional wired networking,
    just fine so far as it goes. Eval carefully
    to see if the BSDs do what YOU need with
    minimal angst. Linux skills are mostly OK
    with Unix ... but it's not ALL the same.

    I tried to run a snapshot version, and faster than G-wifi did work, but something else was unstable, so I had to leave it for the moment.

    The laptop I tested it on was a (then) 1 year old Asus ExpertBook B5,
    and everything except the wifi worked flawlessly.

    The Freebsd handbook was absolutely amazing. The documentation is in my opinion, far, far ahead of linux. Suse does have some good guides
    actually, but I feel BSD is better.

    The BSDs are very very good - for what they're MEANT for.
    The docs ARE extensive - almost TOO .....

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 8 08:13:53 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 00:31:44 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least with the
    existing physics

    When Galileo was doing his best to piss off the pope Ptolemy's geocentric model gave more accurate predictions than the Copernican heliocentric
    model. Yes, it was complcated but it WORKED.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 8 09:29:30 2024
    On 12/7/24 18:40, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:27:09 +0100, D wrote:

    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
    they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatment/total-knee-replacement/

    Pretty common. I know a couple of people who have had it.

    Yeah, I know loads of people that have had their knees replaced, very successfully. Often very active people, who return exercise like
    cycling. Hip replacements can recover in weeks, knees take months.

    My mother had both knees replaced and they lasted well for about 17 years.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 8 11:48:24 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms >>>> to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a bunch >>>> of nice stories.

    Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position
    here.

    What do you mean by 'really exist' ?

    With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the
    material world.

    Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?

    There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know is
    just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. They
    don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 8 11:51:03 2024
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    die prematurely.

    True. But a model does not imply that there is no material world. In fact, >> the success of our models is a strong proof of a material world.


    I never said there wasn't a material world, juts that is nothing like what you think of as 'the material world' which is a figment of the imagination

    I have admited and do admit that my state of the material world is most definitely _not_ the true state of the world. It seems we alternate between misunderstanding, and deep, spiritual understanding.

    That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying
    externality
    ... quantum, arguments we've been through before...
    I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your thinking. >>
    No. the need for security exists in almost everyone. People want simple truths. Certainties. The certainty of God, The certainty of a 'material world'. The certainty of 'social justice'

    Well, from a Maslowian point of view you are right. Many people critique him, but I actually think he came up with truths. Ok, maybe not _exactly_ a pyramid and here and there, but the essence I think is pretty good.



    I think that is insulting. Stop ascribing motivations or putting words in
    my mouth. If you do not, I will reverse the process, and we will end up
    killfiling each other or angrily ignoring each other. I would not like for >> that to happen.

    :-)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 8 11:59:17 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:

    Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human
    species would just slowly fade away.

    The dating of the Bhagavad Gita us controversial. One theory is it is not
    as old as claimed and was written after Buddhism became established.
    Gautama was a Kshatria, the warrior and administrator varna. As such, he attracted men from the same varna to lead lives as monks.

    The Gita gets more philosophical but in the beginning Arjuna is on a battlefield and is getting cold feet. His mentor, Krishna, tells him he is
    a warrior and that's what warriors do. Get with the program.

    The thought is the Gita was addressed to young Kshatriya to remind them of their role in society and not to abandon it to follow some monk.

    It will never happen but I'd really like to see Gabbard taking the Presidential oath of office with her hand on the Gita.

    Fascinating theory! Would also be quite interesting if it were true, and
    if they did see a risk that the best and brightest, due to buddha, would
    just hang around meditating all day instead of protecting society. ;)

    But there is this wonderful inflection point, where christianity went from
    a personal mystic method to find enlightenment, to become a tool to
    control and build society.

    I wonder if the mystics lost because of 1. being more interested in the "within" and personal experience than power and 2. the other guys being
    more interested in power and cared nothing for god, but saw the
    opportunity. I guess the 3. is St Paul fearing that christianity would
    split into a 1000 pieces if the mystics with their own individual
    experiences were allowed to continue.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 8 12:06:38 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:23:24 +0100, D wrote:

    How come? Is it like a thing you feel constantly? Doesn't that get
    annoying or is it more that you feel it if you consciously look for it,
    but you otherwise forget it?

    https://www.stryker.com/us/en/trauma-and-extremities/products/gamma3.html

    It's mostly at night if I lie on that side. The head of the lag screw
    creates a pressure point. During the day it's rarely noticeable. For
    example I put the studded winter tires on today and had no problems wuth
    all the kneeling to position the jack, sitting to guide the tire on the studs, standing to torque the nuts, carrying the summer tires to in back
    of the shed, etc. Over the summer I was putting on 25 to 30 miles a week, mostly on mountain trails with no problem.

    The operation itself only requires two small incisions so it's minimally intrusive. I was up with a walker the next day. I took a Tylenol before
    the excursion but didn't notice any effect so I didn't bother after that.

    It took several months to get back to normal. I spent the time in rehab researching trike conversions or sidecars for the bikes j.i.c. I started
    with a push bike to get the required range of motion. The first few
    outings weren't very graceful on the dismount but I got the hang of it.
    Both the V-Strom and DR650 are pretty tall but with the Sportster I can
    step over the saddle.

    Got it! Glad to hear it worked and isn't causing you any serious trouble!
    =) I am starting to get a bit worried about my old father when there's too
    much ice on the pavement. He did slip last winter on his way home from the grocery store, but nothing serious. He's only a child though (73) so
    plenty of more year to go!

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 8 12:04:17 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:

    I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering
    your ego,
    jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like
    the gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug,
    might shake it a bit so it becomes unstuck?

    Back in the day I did acid of dubious quality twice. The first was a bad experience, the second was better. I was alone for the second attempt.

    Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life? I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol, but I did
    have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15. I've had a few
    mild echoes of that experience, but never anything close to the strength
    of it since.

    True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
    life was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they
    would go to heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the
    church didn't forbid that way of "hacking the system"!

    I don't think it was all that bad. People raised families and carried on obviously or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Interesting. I mean of course it would vary with the region. But thinking
    about medieval serfs, hounded by the nobility in northern europe, does
    make me quite suicidal at least. ;)

    I'm reading a series by James L. Nelson set in 852 A.D. when Dubh Linn was
    a Norse settlement. It follows a small band whose leader only wants to
    grab some Irish loot, go home to Norway, and spend his golden years
    farming. It doesn't work out that was of course.

    One of the band is a berserker. He gets morose after battles when he
    survives since he wants a heroic death in battle to attract the Valkyries
    to take him to Valhalla.

    The Christians had to make a few edits to sell their goods to a warrior culture. I think I've mentioned Russell's 'The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity' and the Heliand, a Saxon poem that had Jesus as the drighten of a war band heading to the hill fort of Jerusalem. The massacre
    of the Saxons didn't get the job done so they had to come up with a better spin. We still honer Woden's Day and turning the other cheek never got
    very popular.

    True. I doubt they had christmas trees in jerusalem as well. ;) In fact, I
    have an early memory from when I was a child looking at some childrens
    jesus programs around christmas, when that question hit me.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 8 12:10:55 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:36:46 +0100, D wrote:

    I saw a documentary where an abbott said that she uses (abbess?) the
    students answer to the koan to gauge the students spiritual progress.
    Somehow that feels so strange to me, since enlightenment is an
    individual phenomenon, so how can you build a "scale" based on the
    answer to nonsensical questions? On the other hand, I'm not a student of
    zen.

    Rinzai Zen is often criticized for the koan system. It might have worked
    at one point before it became formalized.

    https://www.amazon.com/Sound-One-Hand-Answers-Classics/dp/1681370220

    For only $11.99 in the Kindle edition you can get the teacher's edition.

    Soto Zen is more into just sitting (zazen).

    And then there is the Western spin. It can be traced back to Alan Watts,
    and alcoholic British expat, and through him to Christmas Humphreys, the founder of the London Buddhist Society. Then you get to Bennett, the Order
    of the Golden Dawn, Crowley, Annie Besant of the Theosophical Society, and other assorted nutters. D.T. Suzuki was also from that group and threw in
    his own spin.

    Filter it through a generation or two and you have Tricycle. Personally I prefer Rahula's take although he is often criticized as being too Western.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Buddha_Taught

    I'm no expert, but I'd say the sitting version sounds more "original". As
    for Watts, I'm always skeptical of those kind of new ages guys, but very
    often people seem to be huge fans.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 8 11:54:00 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 22:20, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>
    I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on >>>>>>>> seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.

    I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst >>>>>>>> to
    me Natures best laxative...

    Interesting.  I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative, >>>>>>> at least for me.  This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
    I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.


    Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no >>>>>> idea they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!

    A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
    operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
    pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.

    I went to her funeral.

    Other people end up with amputations.

    Hip replacements are very successful though.

    Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver antibiotics >>>>> to the wound site

    Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of
    life, my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having
    struggled with very painful cancer treatment for several years.

    Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic
    incurable conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and
    keep going. Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.

    I will pray for that they might chance from incurable to curable with some >> great scientific leaps in the future!

    Well a major transplant of 3-4 organs and a massive break through in cancer might fixe them all.

    But I am not holding my breath,.
    My body is simply worn out.

    I'm sorry to hear that. =( I am way too well acquainted with that, as I followed my mothers journey through that process.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Rich on Sun Dec 8 12:09:00 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
    opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
    saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)

    Yes. Slackware is the nearest to just being Linux of all the
    distros (that install Linux, some of the FreeBSD's may be similar).
    If your preference is to edit /etc/resolv.conf to adjust your
    default name server, and edit /etc/init.d to change the default
    bootup, and so forth, it is more what you may be looking for than
    the others (all of which add varing levels a "you are an idiot, here
    let me hold your hand via this custom GUI" system on top).

    Sounds great! =)

    Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
    are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my
    machines! =D

    Tis free to download, and you can install it into a VM if you wish
    to 'test out' at first (and don't have a spare machine to devote to
    'testout').

    It also is one of the few left that is systemd free. And instead of
    the SYSV infinite field of symlinks for init, Slackware uses BSD
    style rc.d scripts (actual scripts you can edit). The provenance of
    SYSV sysmlink fields means it also will support those if you want,
    but the default is actual scripts that execute other scripts.

    Oh my... it just keeps getting better and better!! How come it
    hasn't gotten any attention at all??

    Likely because 99% of the "computer using public" is *lost* without the "handholding GUI".

    I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to >> slckware to escape their systemd problems?

    I can't answer that one. You'd have to ask them. I don't dabble in
    either. First installed Slackware back when it was the "new and
    improved SLS" (Soft Landing Systems). Have stuck with it since.

    I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the
    config file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that
    the teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to
    manage linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing
    them to miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how
    it was design to work. =(

    And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE
    students, who only "know Ubuntu" (assuming they used Ubuntu) and the
    "Ubuntu way" and if tossed into a "non Ubuntu" system, become lost,
    because they really did not learn how things worked behind the
    "lipstick on a pig GUI".

    Yep, this is the sad truth. I, together with 2 colleagues, give a
    cloud course that's after the linux course, and we do hard core
    terminal work in that course. We've discovered that since they have
    a monkey as the linux teacher, we have to start from scratch in that
    course, thus losing valuable time. =(

    Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
    changes, and they are lost again.

    I will pray hard, that I manage to get back the linux course next
    autumn. That way I can prepare them properly and teach them what the
    terminal, files, scripting, and text files is all about! =)

    That will reduce the lost time in the 'cloud' course just to bring them
    up to speed to begin to operate.

    True! I have another story from that school. My colleague is currently
    teaching basics of networking, and he instructed the school to prepare the students laptops with linux, so that he could then install GNS3 for labs.

    Turned out they forgot, and that their IT admin only knows windows, so she
    was very angry that she had to work over time figuring out with youtube
    videos how to install linux on 43 laptops.

    We lost a week in a 5 week course, and all students unhappy, and of course
    they blamed the teacher for it, and not the school. =/

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 8 11:52:47 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 22:07, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death
    experiences as well.

    The ultimate trauma...

    Yes, and boy is it fascinating!

    That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms are >>>> now starting to become so common, if there's something to be gained by >>>> doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind with external
    drugs?

    Depends on the person.  Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or
    revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact... >>
    True. I would very much like to try, but I have madness in the distant
    family
    and I do not want to take any risk of jarring the good, old brain since it >> might
    be latent in me.

    There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then unable >>> to cope with daily life.

    This is another interesting thought experiment. We tend to sanctify saints, >> saying they are the paragon of humanity. But would all of us becoing saints >> really be a good end station for humanity?

    If I look at monks and monasteries, they decide (for the love of humanity) >> to
    move away and pray. If you look at saintly figures among the monks (the
    "rock
    stars" of spirituality) they tend to withdraw even more, and the brothers
    take
    care of them.

    Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human species >> would
    just slowly fade away.

    "Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After enlightenment >>> chopping wood, fetching water"

    :-)

    True. From where is that quote?

    Standard Zen shit I think


    The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about underground
    trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
    merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again. >>>>
    Bliss junkies.

    It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out
    with that for my last operation. Wow!

    Yes, it does sound like junkies. They are only there for the instant
    effects,
    and not for the goal (to find god). I think, but am not sure, that buddha
    strongly warned against blissful states, spiritual experiences, esp and so >> on,
    and said "just keep on meditating and do not let yourself be distracted by >> that".

    Yes. Very much so.

    It would make a lot of sense if that is what he said, and it would also
    make me
    think that in fact, bliss junkies is exactly what they are, and that it
    might
    actually be harmful for them in the long run, even though they run around
    feeling bliss all day.

    Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for decades, >>>> and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving man, with
    enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and helping people. >>>>
    Indeed.

    The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his dose >>>> of spirituality.

    Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.

    There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't
    guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad
    one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.

    I think transpersonal psychology and psychedelic therapy are trying to
    mitigate
    that, and make it for "everyone" by carefully monitoring the process and
    the
    doseages.

    Well good luck with that. I come from a rougher and less sympathetic age. If you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen.



    Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the other >>>> method?

    Depends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive any >>> drug. But weak people are attracted.

    Only one way to find out! ;)

    I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an
    underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards he >>>> felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even hesitated to >>>> kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect started to wear >>>> off as life came back.

    Psychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find
    alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution, but >>> your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they are a tool >>> to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the modification will >>> hold.

    I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering your >> ego,
    jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like the >> gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug, might
    shake it
    a bit so it becomes unstuck?

    Mental illness from the psychedelic perspective is simply a bad metaphysical choice.
    People choose to believe something, perhaps not even consciously, that makes them dysfunctional and unhappy. But in some sense secure in their belief.

    "everyone is out to get me because i am in fact superior in every way, so I don't need to change my views at all, I am right, and they are simply wrong"




    This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely permanently >>> 'enlightened'

    True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
    life
    was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they would go >> to
    heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the church didn't
    forbid
    that way of "hacking the system"! ;)

    Lol. Hacking the christian system

    I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.

    For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)

    "In my life, I have travelled many paths,
    into the bush and out of it
    But I am not anywhere.
    For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart
    On any path with heart
    And their I travel looking breathlessly"

    "But how can one know a path with heart?"

    "Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question"

    From where is this quote?

    The teachings of Don Juan - Carlos Castenada. A mixture of truth and fiction IMHO.

    Thank you, will have to look it up to see if there is much food for
    thought there.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Robert Riches on Sun Dec 8 12:53:43 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, Robert Riches wrote:

    On 2024-12-07, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:


    ...

    I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to >> slckware to escape their systemd problems?

    I might not be one of "those guys", but this is my journey as a
    refugee from systemd:

    - Based on notes and potentially fallible memory from 2013, I had
    been on Mageia 2. IIRC, it was the next version of Mageia that
    switched to systemd. I use RAIDs for main storage. My test VM
    installed fine, but when I tried to boot the test VM via
    systemd, it hung for several minutes and then booted into a
    very broken state. Some stuff (including filesystems) had
    timed out and not booted, while other stuff (including
    filesystems) had not. The tools to decipher systemd's binary
    journal (rather than plain-text logs) were not installed by
    default. The system was in "I've fallen and can't get up"
    condition. At that point, I decided I would be one of the last
    people on the planet to be using something other than systemd
    on my main machine(s).

    - I ran Debian 7 from late 2013 to mid-2018. It was great, but
    then Debian was overcome by the systemd virus, so my journey
    continued.

    - I ran Slackware 14.2 from mid-2018 to late 2018. Updates to
    the kernel were a royal pain, because the tools to generate an
    initrd with drivers for RAID are not even in IKEA-like state.
    I got tired of having to troubleshoot the manual initrd
    generation process on every kernel update. Every time,
    something else had gone wrong and needed to be figured out and
    solved. Fatigue set in.

    - In late 2018, I switched to Devuan ascii, then went to beowulf,
    then chimaera, and now daedalus.

    Along the way, I think I tried a couple of other non-systemd
    distributions. IIRC, one of them was too much like a toy, and
    another set up hardware in such a way that disks kept detaching
    and spamming system logs with messages about a disk going offline
    and being recovered, rinsing, and repeating endlessly.

    If Devuan continues to be viable, I'll probably stay here for as
    long as possible. If/when Devuan becomes non-viable, I'll try to
    find a viable Linux distribution with a variant of BSD as
    fallback.

    How's that for a long answer to a short question? :-)

    Excellent! =) Thank you very much, very interesting to follow your
    journey! =)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 8 12:11:32 2024
    On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
    If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
    useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the
    necessary foundation of thinking.

    All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do
    or not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it
    not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.

    We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the
    way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we
    understand them.

      Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
      with the existing physics  :-)

    Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the laws, we
    actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.

    Mickelson-Morley rather gave the lie to a physically meaningful aether,
    so it was dropped.

    #

      I suspect 'dark matter' will occupy a similar position.

    :-) Probably

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 8 12:14:25 2024
    On 08/12/2024 08:13, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 00:31:44 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least with the
    existing physics

    When Galileo was doing his best to piss off the pope Ptolemy's geocentric model gave more accurate predictions than the Copernican heliocentric
    model. Yes, it was complcated but it WORKED.

    The epicycles are merely a co-ordinate transform of the heliocentric model.

    Galileo's problem was his insistence that his model, was *real*.

    A mistake scientists still make.



    --
    “A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
    who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
    “We did this ourselves.”

    ― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Sun Dec 8 13:39:51 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    At redhat, the only things that is focused on is Openshift, as the ultimate >> lock-in tool, so the OS just lives to the side in its own world.


    IBM has "different motives" when it comes to Linux.

    They will use what they want to use and then trash
    the rest.

    We're in the middle of that.

    This is the truth! They've done it in the past, and I'm sure they'll do it again. I wonder if they will sell of p and z/i eventually as well? Then the transformation to a completely useless consulting organization would be complete.

    What is sad is that SUSE is doing the excat same thing. Their strategy
    seems to
    be to copy everything Redhat does, and do it worse. They now only focus on >> rancher, and are leaving the OS to the side. They closed down their
    openstack
    and their ceph.


    Yea, (real)SUSE isn't worth it anymore.

    Ever tried OpenIndiana - formerly Solaris ? It's
    not really Linux or Unix but "familiar". Really
    not so bad.

    I've heard about it, but I do not think they supported a laptop last time I checked it out, and was VM-only, but perhaps things have moved in the right direction!

    And there's always Plan-9 :-)

    True! =)

    It would be wonderful if some genius tried to pick it up from where it fell down, and would be able to bring it to life, natively, on a fairly modern laptop!

    What they sadly don't realize is that the OS is their jewel. I would focus >> on
    that in the embedded space, they had a hueg lead in the SAP space, and see >> if I
    could grow up. But no... rancher and containers it is, and there redhat is >> blocking them well with openshift.


    The pointy-haired bosses are only interested
    in quick PROFITS and CONTROL. No sense of 'mission'
    beyond that.

    I greatly fear when Linus drops out of the picture.

    That will be a fascinating day! Only then will we fully understand the results and his unique abilities as benevolent dictator for life. I would not be surprised if the corporate vultures would step in and it ending up with forks, slowly diverging into Dell-linux, IBM-linux, Google-linux etc. all of which, over time will become incompatible with each other by design.

     Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
     a bunch of Canonical rejects .....

    Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
    thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble musl >>>> will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about actually >>>> going back to some of my earliest experiments and try FreeBSD for day to >>>> day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I only need some basics, >>>> which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages, so if they fixed their
    wifi problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to run a small linux VM for a >>>> working wifi driver) it could definitely be a serious option. Oh, and
    that would mean it doesn't drain the battery as well. But let's see. I >>>> think I can stick with opensuse 15.6 for at least another 2-3 years, and >>>> then they might kill the project in favuor of some container based crap. >>>

     Deb WAS the Solid Foundation ... until now. It became
     just another 'Buntu IMHO. Tragic !

     The BSDs are "usable" - really Not Bad. However remember
     they are Unix, not Linux, so a lot of little stuff is
     different. They also tend to be a few years behind when
     it comes to drivers. The real target is SERVERS, not
     desktops.

    True. BSDs are a bit behind, but since my main use case is office + light
    scripting + some light servers stuff (backup, web server, etc.) BSDs should >> be
    fine I think. We will see in about 1-2 years when the time comes to leave
    opensuse 15.6 behind.


    The BSDs might be just perfect for your needs. They
    are NOT so perfect for other people's needs - esp
    the gigantic 'desktop' users segment who expect tons
    of eye candy, GUI everything and anything plugged-in
    to Just Work.

    This is the truth! As long as I can have some basic tools, vim, xfce, wifi and decent battery life (oh, and suspend), I'm a happy camper!

    I've got FreeBSD in a VM right now - to refine the
    'how to do it' trivia. DID get X and XCFE installed.
    Next step is to install on an N95 BMax mini-box and
    attach an external HD box. I'd like to use SAMBA but
    something weird CHANGED with that in the last year
    or two and I can't seem to bring up the shares -
    always permissions errors regardless. NFS works,
    but it's got less security and far fewer options.

    It's not the classic version problem? When samba switched from v2 to v3 it decided to break backwards compatibility. I have this problem with an old NAS. When I install a modern opensuse, it cannot access it. I have to specify some flag in order to get it compatible with v2 mode, otherwise it default to v3 mode, and cannot access the old NAS.

    Hmmm ... is it possible to 'dd' a VM into a usable
    bootable image on a real machine ? I've seen various
    'answers'. MX has a utility for cloning the running
    install, it works well, but haven't seen that elsewhere.

    I don't see anything that speaks against that being possible.

     OpenSUSE/Tumbleweed ... DID get it to run on a Pi-4,
     albeit a bit clunky sometimes because it isn't a
     "light" distro. Pi-5s are WEIRD ... can't even get
     a Fedora for those even a year on. Apparently the
     boot-up chain of events is a huge kludge. HAVE
     found instructions - pages and pages and pages
     of them - WAY too old for that shit and half of
     it would probably disappear on the next update.

    I have a radxa zero for my kodi/tv use, and I tried to get opensuse to run >> on it
    and it was not possible. The radxa zero, being some kind of chinese
    raspberry
    copy had horrible documentation, so in the end, the only thing I managed to >> get
    working was some kind of dev snapshot of debian in their git repository.

    Well, not all PI clones are equal. DID try an Orange PI
    and Banana PI. Close ... but not QUITE the same. It'd
    depend on your exact purpose. If you NEED all the I/O
    pins then stick to PIs, esp genuine PIs. If not then
    shop BMax/BeeLink mini-boxes. Did buy another Pi just
    a few weeks ago - but it's a Pi4, not Pi5. The pre-
    BookWORM distros will run on it.

    The only thing I need is power, wifi and a very small formfactor, since it lives
    behind my flatscreen TV, so it cannot be thicker than about 1 cm or so.

    I would loooose for raspberry to develop an updated version of the pi zero. >> That
    is what the radxa is. I have 4 GB ram and 16 GB built in flash storage on
    the
    tiniest board. It was wifi and bluetooth, and kodi and 1080p runs well on
    it.

    The P0 is an interesting variant. You could do a lot of
    useful stuff with the old Pi-1/2 boards and P0 seems to
    encapsulate that capability without much more BS.

    WiFi/BT/etc ... MIGHT take a bigger board - but the
    parts ARE getting smaller and better all the time.
    Expect a Pi0.1 eventually.

    When I retired I still had an original Pi - the one
    with fewer I/O pins - doing a simple job in the
    server room (inside an old drill-bit box). It'd been
    working since forever. DID finally update the system
    near the end, new SD card - and it still worked great.

    The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
    I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
    M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
    they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.

    This is indeed tragic! It will be fun to see the IT budget explode. It will also
    be fun to watch them when Microsoft cloud services go down from time to time, and all they can do is to have a coffee and wait.

    Related to this, I'm currently working on selling software defined storage to companies, and I have discovered that manufacturing companies are _very_ approachable to this argument and owning their own boxes. They know how much it costs to sit around and wait for some cloud provider to get their act together, vs just going down to the data center (or data wardrobe) and restart/change what's not working.

    I'm surprised, but it is nice to have found out that this awareness is still aliev and well in the manufacturing space! =)

    If raspberry updated their zero to those specs (or beyond) I would drop the >> radxa in a second since I expect that the git repository will become
    unmaintained in a year or two.

     If you really want an alt, consider Arch and
     derivs. Endeavour is nice. Manjaro works well
     (but, like Tumbleweed, kinda updates the ENTIRE
     system at the slightest change).

    Thank you for the pointers. Have made a note of this.

    Just trying to predict the near future ... it's
    not ALL so rosy.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 12:15:59 2024
    On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought
    forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's
    just a bunch of nice stories.

    Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical
    position here.

    What do you mean by 'really exist' ?

    With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from
    the material world.

    Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?

    There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know is
    just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. They
    don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
    --
    “A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
    who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
    “We did this ourselves.”

    ― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 8 16:33:14 2024
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 03:02:20 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact
    handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
    changes, and they are lost again.

    Then they are very poor at generalization. My various machines have
    Ubuntu, Fedora KDE spin, Lubuntu, Debian with Xfce, the Raspberry Pi OS derivative of Debian, and Windows 11. They're all different and they are
    all the same.

    You must not have had much experience with helping out 'typical users'
    (i.e., often those who "just want to get their job X done on this dang computer").

    Move a button 40 pixels in any cardinal direction on their GUI, but
    otherwise leave the label unchanged, and 40% of those users will be
    unable to function until someone else shows them the new location of
    the button.

    A huge number of folks get by via little more than rote memorization
    for computer usage, and seemingly have zero ability to generalize.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Sun Dec 8 18:19:33 2024
    On 08/12/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
    A huge number of folks get by via little more than rote memorization
    for computer usage, and seemingly have zero ability to generalize.

    I was always amazed at the database entry and access staff who could
    touch type and absolutely had only one set of menus and no GUI on an
    80x25 screen.

    The speed they achieved because everything was the same every day was
    amazing.

    I wouldn't want someone moving the brake pedal on my car, either.

    Gui crap is built by coders for coders.

    Most people just want to click on Button A and get to their bank, key in
    the security shit and pay their bills etc.

    The GUI is actually a distraction


    --
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

    ― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
    M. de Voltaire

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 8 19:50:55 2024
    On 2024-12-08, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 00:31:44 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least with the
    existing physics

    When Galileo was doing his best to piss off the pope Ptolemy's geocentric model gave more accurate predictions than the Copernican heliocentric
    model. Yes, it was complcated but it WORKED.

    Perhaps, but the Copernican model won out in the end.

    I always enjoyed the fact that "geocentric" becomes even more appropriate
    when you swap the first two letters.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 8 19:50:58 2024
    On 2024-12-08, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:

    A huge number of folks get by via little more than rote memorization
    for computer usage, and seemingly have zero ability to generalize.

    I was always amazed at the database entry and access staff who could
    touch type and absolutely had only one set of menus and no GUI on an
    80x25 screen.

    The speed they achieved because everything was the same every day was amazing.

    I wouldn't want someone moving the brake pedal on my car, either.

    Gui crap is built by coders for coders.

    Most people just want to click on Button A and get to their bank, key in
    the security shit and pay their bills etc.

    The GUI is actually a distraction

    Perhaps, but it's so _pretty_! And the purchasing decisions are made by
    the PHBs anyway, not the poor suckers who are trying to get some work done.

    It drive me nuts when I watch J. Random Luser pointing and clicking and pointing and clicking and dragging and dropping and... oops, where did I
    drop that icon? Hold on a minute... And all the time they're proudly proclaiming how _easy_ the system is to use, when I could get the job
    done in a dozen keystrokes on a properly-designed system.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sun Dec 8 19:50:56 2024
    On 2024-12-08, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
    I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
    M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
    they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.

    s/blame/shovel more money at/

    Your typical luser now just shrugs his shoulders and re-boots,
    re-formats, and re-installs, while meekly accepting that this is
    The Way Things Are.

    This is indeed tragic! It will be fun to see the IT budget explode.
    It will also be fun to watch them when Microsoft cloud services go
    down from time to time, and all they can do is to have a coffee and wait.

    Given that M$'s quality critera can be summed up as
    "sort of works, most of the time", we'll be seeing
    plenty of this - although there will probably be a
    higher-priced option that goes down slightly less often.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to Rich on Sun Dec 8 19:50:57 2024
    On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

    You must not have had much experience with helping out 'typical users'
    (i.e., often those who "just want to get their job X done on this dang computer").

    Move a button 40 pixels in any cardinal direction on their GUI, but
    otherwise leave the label unchanged, and 40% of those users will be
    unable to function until someone else shows them the new location of
    the button.

    This is why the release of a new upgrade will always be a time of
    great wailing and gnashing of teeth - which will hopefully end a
    year or two before the next release starts it all over again.

    A huge number of folks get by via little more than rote memorization
    for computer usage, and seemingly have zero ability to generalize.

    If they're only ever doing the same job, this is not necessarily a
    bad thing. It also saves on the re-training budget. But it leaves
    them sitting ducks for the proponents of change for its own sake.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 8 21:50:12 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms >>>>>> to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a >>>>>> bunch of nice stories.

    Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position >>>>> here.

    What do you mean by 'really exist' ?

    With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the >>>> material world.

    Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?

    There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know is
    just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. They
    don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?


    Nope. It resides safely and securely in the real world and does not have
    its own dimension where ideal and laws live.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 8 21:49:12 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
    If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
    useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary >>> foundation of thinking.

    All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or >>> not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not >>> because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.

    We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the way >>> we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand them. >>
      Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
      with the existing physics  :-)

    Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the laws, we actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.

    If you are interested, Bas van Fraassen probably has some interesting
    things to add as well. There was also a german guy who wrote something interesting in the 1920s I think on that theme, but for the moment the
    name does not come back to me.

    Ahh, here we go!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_%27As_if%27 .

    Mickelson-Morley rather gave the lie to a physically meaningful aether, so it was dropped.

    #

      I suspect 'dark matter' will occupy a similar position.

    :-) Probably



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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 21:13:00 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:

    Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
    I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol, but
    I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15. I've had
    a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything close to the strength of it since.

    No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
    paranoid experience like the first one.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 21:23:00 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:06:38 +0100, D wrote:

    Got it! Glad to hear it worked and isn't causing you any serious
    trouble! =) I am starting to get a bit worried about my old father when there's too much ice on the pavement. He did slip last winter on his way
    home from the grocery store, but nothing serious. He's only a child
    though (73) so plenty of more year to go!

    Child? That makes me feel better since I have a few years on him.

    The irony is I have a collection of YakTraks and micro-spikes that I use
    when hiking. I was walking two blocks to the grocery store on mostly dry pavement. There was a frozen puddle at the end of the company driveway
    that I navigated around but missed an icy patch on the other side. I went
    down fast and hard. Another pedestrian had seen me fall and asked if I was okay. I said yes as I scrambled back up. Then I realized that wasn't going
    to work. They called 911 since my phone was safely on my desk.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 21:45:55 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 11:59:17 +0100, D wrote:


    But there is this wonderful inflection point, where christianity went
    from a personal mystic method to find enlightenment, to become a tool to control and build society.

    I wonder if the mystics lost because of 1. being more interested in the "within" and personal experience than power and 2. the other guys being
    more interested in power and cared nothing for god, but saw the
    opportunity. I guess the 3. is St Paul fearing that christianity would
    split into a 1000 pieces if the mystics with their own individual
    experiences were allowed to continue.

    Other than the Gnostics I don't see much mysticism in early Christianity
    rather than sort of a consoling belief for the lumpen proletariat.
    Constantine was the start of the control.

    Mystics like Ecckhart, John of the Cross, Tauler, Teresa of Avila, and so
    forth were a problem for the hierarchy and treated with suspicion if not outright condemned as heretics.

    Even in recent times Teilhard de Chardin was ordered not to publish or
    teach his ideas. That's no different than Eckhart who would have been
    ignored if he hadn't tried to teach.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Rich on Sun Dec 8 21:50:30 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 16:33:14 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    You must not have had much experience with helping out 'typical users'
    (i.e., often those who "just want to get their job X done on this dang computer").

    No, I do not.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 8 22:38:16 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?

    Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension.
    There ain't no there there.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 8 22:31:12 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:10:55 +0100, D wrote:

    I'm no expert, but I'd say the sitting version sounds more "original".
    As for Watts, I'm always skeptical of those kind of new ages guys, but
    very often people seem to be huge fans.

    The story has several variations but the general theme is Gautama spent 6
    years trying the various New Age techniques with no success until he
    decided to plant himself under the Bodhi tree until he figured it out.

    Then came the systemizers and the immense body of Abhidharma literature, followed by the different schools arguing over interpretation.

    I always had problems with some of those texts. Those people would have
    loved LibreOffice since everything is enumerated lists. I can't reliably remember the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Twelve
    Links of Dependent Origination let alone the subgroupings like the Five Skahndas.

    That's probably why I like Nietzsche; sprawling, self-contradictory, spur
    of the moment aphorisms with no attempt to build a system. That's better
    than Schopenhauer's 'On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason' which he claims is the key to understanding The World as Will.

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Mon Dec 9 01:22:24 2024
    On 12/8/24 2:50 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-08, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
    I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
    M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
    they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.

    s/blame/shovel more money at/

    Your typical luser now just shrugs his shoulders and re-boots,
    re-formats, and re-installs, while meekly accepting that this is
    The Way Things Are.


    It's not just "users" anymore ... they aren't expected
    to know much. It's also a very large segment of IT. The
    goal is to Blame Someone Else - not deal, not fix, not
    defend, not innovate.


    This is indeed tragic! It will be fun to see the IT budget explode.
    It will also be fun to watch them when Microsoft cloud services go
    down from time to time, and all they can do is to have a coffee and wait.

    Given that M$'s quality critera can be summed up as
    "sort of works, most of the time

    ", we'll be seeing
    plenty of this - although there will probably be a
    higher-priced option that goes down slightly less often.

    Yep ... create problem, then CHARGE everyone huge $$$
    FOR the problems ........

    Almost an infallible biz model eh ? :-)

    Who said Bill wasn't smart ?

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  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 03:02:39 2024
    XPost: alt.science

    On 12/8/24 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
    If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
    useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.

    And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the
    necessary foundation of thinking.

    All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do
    or not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use
    it not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.

    We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in
    the way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we
    understand them.

       Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
       with the existing physics  :-)

    Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the  laws, we actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.

    Mickelson-Morley rather gave the lie to a physically meaningful aether,
    so it was dropped.

    We stick with what we "know" until it's impossible to
    ignore the little flaws. Even then, some Bigger Picture
    had better be ready. Einstein/Planck/Bohr provided that
    Bigger Picture at just the right time - but it COULD have
    been a 100 year gap.

    Now ? Another 100 years ???

    Of note ... the validity of said models seems particularly
    vulnerable to the INSTRUMENTATION that can be brought to
    bear. Newton seemed fine - until telescopes were good
    enough to notice that tiny little problem with Mercury.
    Seems like every time the instruments have a 10x improvement
    we have to create a whole new physics/cosmology.

    Until the next 10x improvement ......

    The Webb scope is finding big organized galaxies way
    out/back that weren't supposed to BE there. Now we'll
    need a new cosmology/timeline.

    But ... in a 4-D bubble, if you look FAR enough you
    will start seeing yer own ass. Are these 'ancient
    galaxies' real, or just the ass-end view of nearer
    galaxies ? :-)


    #

       I suspect 'dark matter' will occupy a similar position.

    :-) Probably

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 9 10:26:39 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:

    Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
    I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol, but
    I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15. I've had
    a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything close to the
    strength of it since.

    No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
    paranoid experience like the first one.


    Ahh... well, nothing for me then. ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 9 10:29:58 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:06:38 +0100, D wrote:

    Got it! Glad to hear it worked and isn't causing you any serious
    trouble! =) I am starting to get a bit worried about my old father when
    there's too much ice on the pavement. He did slip last winter on his way
    home from the grocery store, but nothing serious. He's only a child
    though (73) so plenty of more year to go!

    Child? That makes me feel better since I have a few years on him.

    The irony is I have a collection of YakTraks and micro-spikes that I use
    when hiking. I was walking two blocks to the grocery store on mostly dry pavement. There was a frozen puddle at the end of the company driveway
    that I navigated around but missed an icy patch on the other side. I went down fast and hard. Another pedestrian had seen me fall and asked if I was okay. I said yes as I scrambled back up. Then I realized that wasn't going
    to work. They called 911 since my phone was safely on my desk.

    Ouch! Yes, those ice patches are treacherous! I have a friend who's now
    about 40, and I remember 10 years ago, in spring, he was running to the
    bus. In the shadow there was the tiniest 1 or 2 cm remainder of ice that
    he didn't see, and managed to hit exactly that spot, and fell and broke
    his leg.

    In autumn, the leaves on the ground are out to get you, and in winter, the
    ice, in spring, it's the stubborn treacherous remains. In summer at least,
    we are safe! ;)

    That makes me remember in my youth, when I lived in Oslo and in Zürich, in both cities, I lived at the top of a hill. Those winters were fun trying
    to walk to the office, down the hill, with snow and ice, in my office
    shoes. Fortunately I have a naturally good balance, so was able to "slide"
    down the hill. Getting back after work was quite a challenge though. ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 9 10:43:00 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:10:55 +0100, D wrote:

    I'm no expert, but I'd say the sitting version sounds more "original".
    As for Watts, I'm always skeptical of those kind of new ages guys, but
    very often people seem to be huge fans.

    The story has several variations but the general theme is Gautama spent 6 years trying the various New Age techniques with no success until he
    decided to plant himself under the Bodhi tree until he figured it out.

    Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
    spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very knowledgeable!

    Then came the systemizers and the immense body of Abhidharma literature, followed by the different schools arguing over interpretation.

    I always had problems with some of those texts. Those people would have
    loved LibreOffice since everything is enumerated lists. I can't reliably remember the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Twelve Links of Dependent Origination let alone the subgroupings like the Five Skahndas.

    Yes... it's fascinating when you think about the enormous page count the buddhists have racked up over the milennia! ;) I cannot but get the
    feeling that this is completely antithetical compared with buddhas
    original intenetions. ;)

    That's probably why I like Nietzsche; sprawling, self-contradictory, spur
    of the moment aphorisms with no attempt to build a system. That's better
    than Schopenhauer's 'On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason' which he claims is the key to understanding The World as Will.

    I agree completely! I do like Schopenhauers short philosophical texts
    about everyday life (Parerga und paralipomena). Some of them make perfect
    sense and are quite approachable.

    But his magnum opus I don't agree with at all.

    Nietzsche on the other hand, is much better at writing, and although I do
    not think that it is just a bunch of random aphorisms, I do believe there
    is a theme, they are quite a puzzle to fit together.

    Add to that, that his views changed. My favourite is the middle
    period Nietzsche who does see the promise in science and rationality.

    But another thing I like about Nietzsche, at least for me, is that his
    short aphorisms serve as a spring board for me for my own reflections and philosophy. I find it very inspirational. The anti-christ I also like with
    its critique of institutionalized christianity and how damaging it has
    been to society.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 9 10:33:06 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 11:59:17 +0100, D wrote:


    But there is this wonderful inflection point, where christianity went
    from a personal mystic method to find enlightenment, to become a tool to
    control and build society.

    I wonder if the mystics lost because of 1. being more interested in the
    "within" and personal experience than power and 2. the other guys being
    more interested in power and cared nothing for god, but saw the
    opportunity. I guess the 3. is St Paul fearing that christianity would
    split into a 1000 pieces if the mystics with their own individual
    experiences were allowed to continue.

    Other than the Gnostics I don't see much mysticism in early Christianity rather than sort of a consoling belief for the lumpen proletariat. Constantine was the start of the control.

    True.

    Mystics like Ecckhart, John of the Cross, Tauler, Teresa of Avila, and so forth were a problem for the hierarchy and treated with suspicion if not outright condemned as heretics.

    Yes.

    Even in recent times Teilhard de Chardin was ordered not to publish or
    teach his ideas. That's no different than Eckhart who would have been
    ignored if he hadn't tried to teach.

    I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
    the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
    where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
    practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.

    I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core", and
    that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to using his teachings as a way to power starts.

    Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified, formalized remains
    left.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Mon Dec 9 11:49:57 2024
    On 08/12/2024 19:50, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    t drive me nuts when I watch J. Random Luser pointing and clicking and pointing and clicking and dragging and dropping and... oops, where did I
    drop that icon? Hold on a minute... And all the time they're proudly proclaiming how_easy_ the system is to use, when I could get the job
    done in a dozen keystrokes on a properly-designed system.

    --

    I never forget installing dial up Internet mail in a lawyers' office,.
    They had a SCO Unix server and a legal suite of programs to basically
    type legal stuff into, and run diaries and keep track of billable hours,
    all running on about 20 Wyse 50 serial terminals. Adminned by one lawyer
    in his spare time.

    He related gloomily that 'next year the boss wants everyone to have PCs
    and I can't manage 20 Windows set ups. It will cost a fortune'

    In the City of London apparently a PC/Windows set up was estimated to
    cost £3500 per desk per year, in term of hardware and software support, software and hardware depreciation and admin time.

    For so many firms Windows was a massive increase in costs and a massive reduction in productivity.

    And for many others it was simply a way to get a 80x25 screen working
    over Ethernet...Ive seen many PCs in use in banks simply running IBM
    terminal emulators to good old COBOL based mainframes...

    GUIS have their place, but not everywhere.

    --
    I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
    ...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

    Richard Feynman

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 9 11:54:56 2024
    On 08/12/2024 20:49, D wrote:


    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
    If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
    useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc. >>>>
    And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the
    necessary foundation of thinking.

    All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we
    do or not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and
    use it not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works*
    for us.

    We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in
    the way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we
    understand them.

       Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
       with the existing physics  :-)

    Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the  laws, we
    actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.

    If you are interested, Bas van Fraassen probably has some interesting
    things to add as well. There was also a german guy who wrote something interesting in the 1920s I think on that theme, but for the moment the
    name does not come back to me.


    Ahh, here we go!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_%27As_if%27 .

    Yes. That is exactly what I meant.

    Except more so, He argues that if it works, even if its wrong, its OK.

    My point goes further. We can never know for sure if its *right* so the
    *only* criteria we can have is that it works.

    Which was where Karl Popper came in. He arrived at that point and wanted
    to clarify what separated good science from bullshit.

    And pseudo scientists have been trying to shout him down ever since



    --
    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
    always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

    Margaret Thatcher

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 9 11:56:56 2024
    On 08/12/2024 21:13, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:

    Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
    I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol, but
    I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15. I've had
    a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything close to the
    strength of it since.

    No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
    paranoid experience like the first one.

    Many people 'don't remember' . Its cognitive dissonance. The ones that
    do, tell an interestng story.



    --
    Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
    But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 9 11:55:37 2024
    On 08/12/2024 20:50, D wrote:


    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought >>>>>>> forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case
    it's just a bunch of nice stories.

    Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical
    position here.

    What do you mean by 'really exist' ?

    With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from
    the material world.

    Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?

    There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know
    is just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events.
    They don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?


    Nope. It resides safely and securely in the real world and does not have
    its own dimension where ideal and laws live.

    So where does a computer program reside?

    --
    Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
    But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 9 12:09:59 2024
    On 08/12/2024 21:45, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 11:59:17 +0100, D wrote:


    But there is this wonderful inflection point, where christianity went
    from a personal mystic method to find enlightenment, to become a tool to
    control and build society.

    I wonder if the mystics lost because of 1. being more interested in the
    "within" and personal experience than power and 2. the other guys being
    more interested in power and cared nothing for god, but saw the
    opportunity. I guess the 3. is St Paul fearing that christianity would
    split into a 1000 pieces if the mystics with their own individual
    experiences were allowed to continue.

    Other than the Gnostics I don't see much mysticism in early Christianity rather than sort of a consoling belief for the lumpen proletariat. Constantine was the start of the control.

    You have to dig deep. Essentially in the mediaeval times there were the proletariat and the Church, playing the game of public morality and
    religious bullshit, and the monks and nuns in the monasteries and
    nunneries, where real academic discussions took place. William of
    Ockham was such a one.

    The real mysticism was Jewish - Some of the more esoteric parts of
    Judaism were really quite advanced.

    I.e. the Kabala and so on, with their attempts to map what appears to be consciousness itself.

    Christian mysticism has always been seen by official religion as
    muddying the waters for the simple people. Organised Christian religion
    was always, from Paul onwards, a political and social tool.


    Mystics like Ecckhart, John of the Cross, Tauler, Teresa of Avila, and so forth were a problem for the hierarchy and treated with suspicion if not outright condemned as heretics.

    Absolutely. If you want to have visions, for Gods sake have them in the
    privacy of a monastic cell and dont challenge our authority.

    Even in recent times Teilhard de Chardin was ordered not to publish or
    teach his ideas. That's no different than Eckhart who would have been
    ignored if he hadn't tried to teach.

    Yup.

    The mysticism was always there, but it was about as popular then as
    philosophy is today.

    --
    Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
    But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 9 12:13:13 2024
    On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
    I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core", and
    that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to using his teachings as a way to power starts.

    Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified, formalized remains
    left.

    Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and wise
    Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes 'these are
    Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed laws to be
    divine rather than man made?

    My knowledge of friends of the Hebrew persuasion suggest to me the
    latter. :-)


    --
    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
    that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

    Jonathan Swift.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 9 12:40:07 2024
    On 08/12/2024 22:38, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?

    Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension.
    There ain't no there there.

    Well there you are starting with that assumption, so its circular reasoning.

    'There ain't no there, there', is pure metaphysical faith.

    I am simply not so sure...

    --
    There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
    that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
    emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent renewable energy.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Mon Dec 9 12:41:27 2024
    XPost: alt.science

    On 09/12/2024 08:02, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    Seems like every time the instruments have a 10x improvement
      we have to create a whole new physics/cosmology.

    You should see what all these latest telescopes in space are revealing!.
    --
    Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
    more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
    their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
    battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
    that they are dead.
    Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Mon Dec 9 12:42:02 2024
    XPost: alt.science

    On 09/12/2024 08:02, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    Are these 'ancient
      galaxies' real, or just the ass-end view of nearer
      galaxies ?   🙂

    They are just pixels on a CCD.🙂

    --
    Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
    more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
    their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
    battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
    that they are dead.
    Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Dec 9 12:37:42 2024
    On 08/12/2024 22:31, rbowman wrote:
    I can't reliably
    remember the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Twelve Links of Dependent Origination let alone the subgroupings like the Five Skahndas.

    I think you have never been exposed to the Indian art of story telling.
    Read Salman Rushdies 'Haroun and the Sea of Stories'...

    The 'shah of blah'. King of Bullshit. I always thought that there was a wonderful amount of utter crap in those texts, and they were originally
    spoken with a twinkle in the eye...


    That's probably why I like Nietzsche; sprawling, self-contradictory, spur
    of the moment aphorisms with no attempt to build a system. That's better
    than Schopenhauer's 'On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason' which he claims is the key to understanding The World as Will.


    That's the only bit of Schopenhauer I didn't like. Otherwise he is a
    very clear exponent of Transcendental Idealism.

    He arrived at an Eastern view of the world from first principles Quite a
    feat.

    I would say its more the 'threefold principle of necessary dimension',
    myself.

    That an observable world will always contain the paradox of self
    reference unless it is viewed from a dimension orthogonal to the reality
    of perception. What used to be called 'the detached observer' or prior
    to that 'the soul'. Pure awareness, as it were without interference..

    I.e it is necessary to have not only that which is observed, and what
    the observation is - the abstraction of our model of the world - but
    some agency that *does the abstraction*, that is in neither the observed
    entity nor the model it produces.

    Or to put it another way, if we try to understand experience in terms of
    two terms we run into paradox. Douglas Hofstadter's writings are an
    exploration of this problem of recursion.

    Only if you introduce a third element that is orthogonal to the two
    others, do you get a model without paradox.

    The world as 'will and representation' is Schopenhauer's view that the
    world is something with a structure and direction and a sort of force -
    'Will' and then the pictures we draw in our heads to enable us to get to
    grips with it. Representation.

    What he left out was 'who or what is drawing the picture?'

    My conclusion was that you cant do it without it becoming an equation of
    hree terms

    E=f(C,R)

    Experience is a function of Consciousness, and Reality - whatever that
    may be.

    Realism holds that E =f(R) and there is no independent C
    Idealism says that E =f(C) and there is no independent R

    In the end you can believe what you like, and you will select the one
    that works for you.
    And your experiences.

    --
    "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
    conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Mon Dec 9 15:28:19 2024
    186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
    On 12/8/24 2:50 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-08, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
    I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
    M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
    they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.

    s/blame/shovel more money at/

    Your typical luser now just shrugs his shoulders and re-boots,
    re-formats, and re-installs, while meekly accepting that this is
    The Way Things Are.


    It's not just "users" anymore ... they aren't expected
    to know much. It's also a very large segment of IT. The
    goal is to Blame Someone Else - not deal, not fix, not
    defend, not innovate.

    Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
    buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
    shit hits the fan".

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Mon Dec 9 15:58:55 2024
    On 09/12/2024 15:28, Rich wrote:
    ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
    shit hits the fan".

    LOL.

    Most support contracts are not worth wiping your bottom on.

    They are just designed to make money out of.

    The sub prime mortgage crisis was typical of such.

    "We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
    "Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1 guaranteed debt then"
    "But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
    "Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"


    http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/story.jpg



    --
    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
    ― Groucho Marx

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:38:10 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 20:49, D wrote:


    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
    If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of >>>>>> useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc. >>>>>
    And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary >>>>> foundation of thinking.

    All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or >>>>> not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not >>>>> because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.

    We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the >>>>> way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand >>>>> them.

       Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
       with the existing physics  :-)

    Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the  laws, we
    actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.

    If you are interested, Bas van Fraassen probably has some interesting
    things to add as well. There was also a german guy who wrote something
    interesting in the 1920s I think on that theme, but for the moment the name >> does not come back to me.


    Ahh, here we go!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_%27As_if%27 .

    Yes. That is exactly what I meant.

    Except more so, He argues that if it works, even if its wrong, its OK.

    On that theme, did you read any Feyerabend?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Feyerabend#Departure_from_Popper

    My point goes further. We can never know for sure if its *right* so the *only* criteria we can have is that it works.

    Which was where Karl Popper came in. He arrived at that point and wanted to clarify what separated good science from bullshit.

    And pseudo scientists have been trying to shout him down ever since

    Note that Vaihinger quickly fell out of favour, and that his, Feyerabend,
    and to a certain extent The natural ontological attitude (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Natural_Ontological_Attitude) by Arthur
    Fine is a very minority position.

    That, however, is not an iron clad proof against it, but I'm happy I could
    dig out something which perhaps traces your path (unless you haven't
    already seen it). When I find something similar for myself, I very much
    enjoy reading the criticism of the position to see if it will sway me.

    I hope you find the links above interesting and enlightening! =)

    As you know, I'm an all out materialist (however it is defined) guy, but,
    with that in mind I do appreciate the "agnosticism" of the natural
    ontological attitude, if I interpret Fine right. In a way it is quite an elegant solution, alas the anti-realists do say he got their position
    wrong, and that his position can be collapsed into the anti-realist one.

    That is kind of what I mean with my thought play agnostic monism. Monism however, being an assumption that there is some kind of "unified"
    principle or machinery giving rise to what we see, although that remains
    to be seen.

    It seems like unified explanations, simplifications are deep psychological reflexes and we have taken steps toward a theory of everything, so perhaps
    this is even mirrored in nature?

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to John Ames on Mon Dec 9 20:22:19 2024
    On 09/12/2024 19:39, John Ames wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 13:39:51 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I've heard about it, but I do not think they supported a laptop last
    time I checked it out, and was VM-only, but perhaps things have moved
    in the right direction!

    This is the truth! As long as I can have some basic tools, vim, xfce,
    wifi and decent battery life (oh, and suspend), I'm a happy camper!

    It remains mind-boggling to me how poor power-management/laptop support
    is in the FOSS world, outside of Linux (which gets it mostly by virtue
    of being the proverbial 800-lb. gorilla, relative to the other players.) OpenBSD I can understand, those people *exclusively* care about server environments, but it's surprising how spotty NetBSD is with it, and
    even moreso something like Haiku which is intended specifically for use
    in a desktop personal-computer context...


    I think that is fair enough. Redhat and IBM poured huge amounts of
    developer time into the basic stable server system.

    If BSD wants that space they haven't the resources to do the desktop as
    well.

    Mint works for me in my niche. YMMV

    --
    Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
    – Will Durant

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:39:04 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 20:50, D wrote:


    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought >>>>>>>> forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's >>>>>>>> just a bunch of nice stories.

    Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position >>>>>>> here.

    What do you mean by 'really exist' ?

    With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the >>>>>> material world.

    Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?

    There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know is >>>> just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. They >>>> don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?


    Nope. It resides safely and securely in the real world and does not have
    its own dimension where ideal and laws live.

    So where does a computer program reside?

    In a simple case, it resides in a computer.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:41:18 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
    I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core", and
    that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to using his
    teachings as a way to power starts.

    Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and personal
    experiences get lost and you just get the ossified, formalized remains
    left.

    Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes 'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed laws to be divine rather than man made?

    My knowledge of friends of the Hebrew persuasion suggest to me the latter. :-)

    The latter! Although I can accept that he perhaps did it in a trance, and fooled himself into believing his own trick. ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:44:32 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 22:38, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?

    Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension.
    There ain't no there there.

    Well there you are starting with that assumption, so its circular reasoning.

    'There ain't no there, there', is pure metaphysical faith.

    I am simply not so sure...


    Well, note the unless. So my interpretation is that the answer is "no" on rbowmans behalf. But I'll let the expert talk, and we'll see. ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:47:32 2024
    XPost: alt.science

    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 09/12/2024 08:02, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    Seems like every time the instruments have a 10x improvement
      we have to create a whole new physics/cosmology.

    You should see what all these latest telescopes in space are revealing!.


    Easy!

    "Attack ships on fire off (the) shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams
    glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate."

    Jokes aside, I find the exploration of the great attractor to be very interesting!

    In 1992, much of the apparent signal of the Great Attractor was attributed
    to a statistical effect called Malmquist bias.[9] In 2005, astronomers conducting an X-ray survey of part of the sky known as the Clusters in the
    Zone of Avoidance (CIZA) project reported that the Great Attractor was
    actually only one tenth the mass that scientists had originally estimated.
    The survey also confirmed earlier theories that the Milky Way galaxy is in
    fact being pulled toward a much more massive cluster of galaxies near the Shapley Supercluster, which lies beyond the Great Attractor, and which is called the Shapley Attractor.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:12:10 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 12:37:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I think you have never been exposed to the Indian art of story telling.
    Read Salman Rushdies 'Haroun and the Sea of Stories'...

    iirc I took a run at 'The Satanic Verses' but couldn't get any traction.
    while I can understand the endless repetitions as an aid to verbal
    transmission it does get old in the sutras.

    He arrived at an Eastern view of the world from first principles Quite a feat.

    I think he remarked that when he finally encountered Buddhism it looked a
    lot like home.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 9 21:26:24 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 21:39:04 +0100, D wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 20:50, D wrote:


    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:


    On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
    So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as
    thought forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which >>>>>>>>> case it's just a bunch of nice stories.

    Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical
    position here.

    What do you mean by 'really exist' ?

    With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate
    from the material world.

    Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?

    There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know >>>>> is just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. >>>>> They don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?


    Nope. It resides safely and securely in the real world and does not
    have its own dimension where ideal and laws live.

    So where does a computer program reside?

    In a simple case, it resides in a computer.

    https://eater.net/6502

    In the first video he uses a modern static 6502 that can single step and
    an Arduino as a sort of logic analyzer. He uses resistors to tie the data
    lines either high or low. On a restart the 6502 runs a couple of
    instructions then jumps to an address to start reading the program. The resistors on the data lines form the bit pattern for a noop. The 6502
    dutifully performs a noop, increments the address, and reads the data
    lines, which are another noop. Rinse and repeat.

    Where is the program?

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:36:58 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 12:42:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 09/12/2024 08:02, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    Are these 'ancient
      galaxies' real, or just the ass-end view of nearer galaxies ?   🙂

    They are just pixels on a CCD.🙂

    A few years ago I visited Kitt Peak. I should have known better but there
    isn't much in the way of telescopes like those used by backyard
    astronomers. The star attractions are the two big radio telescopes but
    even the Mayall 4 meter telescope hosts the DESI.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Energy_Spectroscopic_Instrument

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 9 21:48:19 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 21:44:32 +0100, D wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 22:38, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?

    Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension.
    There ain't no there there.

    Well there you are starting with that assumption, so its circular
    reasoning.

    'There ain't no there, there', is pure metaphysical faith.

    I am simply not so sure...


    Well, note the unless. So my interpretation is that the answer is "no"
    on rbowmans behalf. But I'll let the expert talk, and we'll see. ;)

    Not going down the rabbit, or maybe turtle, hole. Poking around in brains hasn't found anything but basic neurophysiology, electrochemical
    interaction between the dendrites and axons.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ A_logical_calculus_of_the_ideas_immanent_in_nervous_activity

    We've come a long way from that model.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:51:45 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:56:56 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 21:13, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:

    Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
    I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol,
    but I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15.
    I've had a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything
    close to the strength of it since.

    No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
    paranoid experience like the first one.

    Many people 'don't remember' . Its cognitive dissonance. The ones that
    do, tell an interestng story.

    Some are better story tellers. Those who use psychedelics in search of a transformative may be predisposed to finding it.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:53:33 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09/12/2024 15:28, Rich wrote:
    ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
    environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
    buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
    shit hits the fan".

    LOL.

    Most support contracts are not worth wiping your bottom on.

    They are just designed to make money out of.

    The sub prime mortgage crisis was typical of such.

    "We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
    "Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1 guaranteed debt then"
    "But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
    "Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"


    http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/story.jpg

    Nice...

    Although I doubt that anyone actually asked the "what if" question
    about the insurance companies in the run-up to the explosion.

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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 21:57:42 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
    I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core",
    and that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to
    using his teachings as a way to power starts.

    Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and
    personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified,
    formalized remains left.

    Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and
    wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes
    'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed
    laws to be divine rather than man made?

    What better way is there to get the "tribe" to not question the "moral
    laws" than to convince them that their God explicitly deemed these so.
    Who are you, lowly tribe member, to question the "word of God".....

    One just have to be successful in the process of selling of the 'laws'
    as "divine from God" to the tribe members.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 9 22:06:59 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:29:58 +0100, D wrote:

    In autumn, the leaves on the ground are out to get you, and in winter,
    the ice, in spring, it's the stubborn treacherous remains. In summer at least,
    we are safe!

    I'm not a very good passenger. One fall a friend was driving and I didn't
    feel comfortable. Rather than yelling 'Slow down!' I mentioned that wet
    leaves on the road were as treacherous as ice. The hint didn't work and we
    were soon going down the road backwards at about 70 mph before becoming airborne. Alfa Romeos don't do well upside down. I still have scars from
    that one.

    It hasn't snowed yet but we're in a fairly typical winter pattern, high
    30s or low 40s in the day and 20s at night. Perfect conditions to reflow
    the ice every day. The trails get icy and stay that way and the less
    traveled roads can have all sorts of surprises.

    There aren't many hardwood species but Ponderosa pines loose a percentage
    of their needles in the fall. The long shed needles form a thatch that's
    good for skiing if you're not careful. Larch loose their needles
    completely but they're short enough to not be hazardous.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 9 22:12:49 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0100, D wrote:

    I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
    the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
    where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
    practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.

    Prophet in his own land... iirc Thomas Merton, who was well versed in
    Zen, pointed out the similarities to Christian mysticism and suggested you didn't really need to make the 'journey to the east'.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Rich on Mon Dec 9 22:15:53 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
    shit hits the fan".

    An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if
    they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Dec 9 22:23:30 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:58:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    "We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
    "Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1 guaranteed debt then"
    "But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
    "Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"

    I remember an article in the WSJ about the great new idea of creating a
    tranche of mortgages likely to fail, peddle the derivatives, and wait for
    the failure and subsequent insurance payout.

    I'm not interested in the stock market or economics in general but I
    thought 'this isn't going to end well.' I thought the same about the 1999 'Financial Services Modernization Act' that removed the Glass-Steagal
    controls with the financiers promising they weren't going to do anything
    stupid this time.

    I'm not prescient nor do I claim any expertise in economics, foreign
    policy, and so forth but it's depressing how often my personal analysis
    proves to be correct versus the 'experts'.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 9 23:15:33 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:


    Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
    spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very knowledgeable!

    I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
    blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
    it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though parallels my understanding of the world.

    However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't
    think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
    original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
    contra Nietzsche.

    I agree completely! I do like Schopenhauers short philosophical texts
    about everyday life (Parerga und paralipomena). Some of them make
    perfect sense and are quite approachable.

    I've got Hollingdale's 'Essays and Aphorisms' that is a selection. I don't
    know how complete it is. I have read that during his service in WWI Hitler carried a copy of Schopenhauer's writings in his knapsack. I assume it was Parerga and not the two volumes of The World.

    But his magnum opus I don't agree with at all.

    For me that's back to his pessimism. I think the real person of the 'obit
    anus, abit onus' quote would have been more interesting than the
    intellectual. He probably had a few good rants on Hegel too.

    Nietzsche on the other hand, is much better at writing, and although I
    do not think that it is just a bunch of random aphorisms, I do believe
    there is a theme, they are quite a puzzle to fit together.

    Add to that, that his views changed. My favourite is the middle period Nietzsche who does see the promise in science and rationality.

    That is more interesting than Schopenhauer. He may have done a little
    polishing but he was a one trick pony, unlike Nietzsche. I'm currently re- reading the unfinished 'Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks' that's quite linear. Prior to that I'd reread the late works, Twilight,
    Antichrist, and Ecce Homo. Next I'll redo the middle. It's been some time
    since I've read 'Untimely Meditations', the others I've hit more recently.
    TBH Zarathustra is my least favorite of the while corpus.


    But another thing I like about Nietzsche, at least for me, is that his
    short aphorisms serve as a spring board for me for my own reflections
    and philosophy. I find it very inspirational. The anti-christ I also
    like with its critique of institutionalized christianity and how
    damaging it has been to society.

    'The Will to Power' is one my bathroom book pile. I read random selections
    like some people do with the bible. I don't trust the llama as an editor
    but I'm glad she undertook the project.

    Antichrist reminds me of the Jefferson Bible and some of the newer
    projects. Pauline Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus. I think by
    then Nietzsche felt bad about sniping at poor old Strauss.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 10 00:19:59 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 20:49, D wrote:


    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
    If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of >>>>>> useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc. >>>>>
    And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary >>>>> foundation of thinking.

    All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or >>>>> not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not >>>>> because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.

    We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the >>>>> way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand >>>>> them.

       Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
       with the existing physics  :-)

    Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the  laws, we
    actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.

    If you are interested, Bas van Fraassen probably has some interesting
    things to add as well. There was also a german guy who wrote something
    interesting in the 1920s I think on that theme, but for the moment the name >> does not come back to me.


    Ahh, here we go!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_%27As_if%27 .

    Yes. That is exactly what I meant.

    Except more so, He argues that if it works, even if its wrong, its OK.

    My point goes further. We can never know for sure if its *right* so the *only* criteria we can have is that it works.

    Which was where Karl Popper came in. He arrived at that point and wanted to clarify what separated good science from bullshit.

    And pseudo scientists have been trying to shout him down ever since

    I think you might enjoy the book The Shaky Game - Einstein, Realism and
    the Quantum Theory.

    An excerpt...

    "Realism is dead. Its death was announced by the neopositivists who
    realized that they could accept all the results of science, including all
    the members of the scientific zoo, and still declare that the questions
    raised by the existence claims of realism were mere pseudo- questions. Its death was hastened by the debates over the inter- pretation of quantum
    theory, where Bohr's nonrealist philosophy was seen to win out over
    Einstein's passionate realism. Its death was certified, finally, as the
    last two generations of physical scientists turned their backs on realism
    and have managed, nevertheless, to do science successfully without it. To
    be sure, some recent philo- sophical literature has appeared to pump up
    the ghostly shell and to give it new life. I think these efforts will eventually be seen and understood as the first stage in the process of mourning, the stage of denial. But I think we shall pass through this
    first stage and into that of acceptance, for realism is well and truly
    dead, and we have work to get on with, in identifying a suitable
    successor."

    Let me know if you would like to read more, and I can get you the book in electronic format (unless you haven't read it already).

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 04:41:54 2024
    On 2024-12-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
    environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
    buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
    shit hits the fan".

    An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.

    Several years ago Microsoft's buzzphrase against Linux was "total cost
    of ownership" (TCO). In other words, M$ products cost money, but the
    support more than makes up for it. It was amazing how fast evidence
    to the contrary piled up. "TCO" disappeared from the M$ marketing
    lexicon pretty fast.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

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  • From D@21:1/5 to John Ames on Tue Dec 10 09:52:11 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 13:39:51 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I've heard about it, but I do not think they supported a laptop last
    time I checked it out, and was VM-only, but perhaps things have moved
    in the right direction!

    This is the truth! As long as I can have some basic tools, vim, xfce,
    wifi and decent battery life (oh, and suspend), I'm a happy camper!

    It remains mind-boggling to me how poor power-management/laptop support
    is in the FOSS world, outside of Linux (which gets it mostly by virtue
    of being the proverbial 800-lb. gorilla, relative to the other players.) OpenBSD I can understand, those people *exclusively* care about server environments, but it's surprising how spotty NetBSD is with it, and
    even moreso something like Haiku which is intended specifically for use
    in a desktop personal-computer context...

    This is the truth! I get about 14 hours or so out of my 1 year old Asus
    with linux if I really make an effort. FreeBSD when I tested it 1 year ago looked very promising, but since I did not have a lot of time for testing,
    I never maxed it out.

    I followed this guide:

    https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2018/11/28/the-power-to-serve-freebsd-power-management/
    .

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 09:56:54 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 21:44:32 +0100, D wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 22:38, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?

    Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension. >>>> There ain't no there there.

    Well there you are starting with that assumption, so its circular
    reasoning.

    'There ain't no there, there', is pure metaphysical faith.

    I am simply not so sure...


    Well, note the unless. So my interpretation is that the answer is "no"
    on rbowmans behalf. But I'll let the expert talk, and we'll see. ;)

    Not going down the rabbit, or maybe turtle, hole. Poking around in brains hasn't found anything but basic neurophysiology, electrochemical
    interaction between the dendrites and axons.

    This is the truth, and I completely agree.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ A_logical_calculus_of_the_ideas_immanent_in_nervous_activity

    We've come a long way from that model.


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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 09:58:17 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:56:56 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 21:13, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:

    Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
    I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol,
    but I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15.
    I've had a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything
    close to the strength of it since.

    No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
    paranoid experience like the first one.

    Many people 'don't remember' . Its cognitive dissonance. The ones that
    do, tell an interestng story.

    Some are better story tellers. Those who use psychedelics in search of a transformative may be predisposed to finding it.


    This is a very interesting theory! I would _love_ to do that kind of experiment, tring out some psylocybin on hard core atheists, or even
    better, not even telling them what the test is about, and see the reaction
    and what they experience.

    Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is about finding god, to compare.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Rich on Tue Dec 10 09:59:17 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
    I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core",
    and that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to
    using his teachings as a way to power starts.

    Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and
    personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified,
    formalized remains left.

    Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and
    wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes
    'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed
    laws to be divine rather than man made?

    What better way is there to get the "tribe" to not question the "moral
    laws" than to convince them that their God explicitly deemed these so.
    Who are you, lowly tribe member, to question the "word of God".....

    One just have to be successful in the process of selling of the 'laws'
    as "divine from God" to the tribe members.


    True. And today we do the same thing with climate change, although the
    laws comes from scientists, who represent "the truth" (TM) and may never
    be questioned.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 10:02:45 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:29:58 +0100, D wrote:

    In autumn, the leaves on the ground are out to get you, and in winter,
    the ice, in spring, it's the stubborn treacherous remains. In summer at
    least,
    we are safe!

    I'm not a very good passenger. One fall a friend was driving and I didn't feel comfortable. Rather than yelling 'Slow down!' I mentioned that wet leaves on the road were as treacherous as ice. The hint didn't work and we were soon going down the road backwards at about 70 mph before becoming airborne. Alfa Romeos don't do well upside down. I still have scars from
    that one.

    Horrible! I hope he paid your medical bills at least? Did he learn his
    lesson and is he a very careful driver these days?

    It hasn't snowed yet but we're in a fairly typical winter pattern, high
    30s or low 40s in the day and 20s at night. Perfect conditions to reflow
    the ice every day. The trails get icy and stay that way and the less
    traveled roads can have all sorts of surprises.

    Be safe and take your time!

    There aren't many hardwood species but Ponderosa pines loose a percentage
    of their needles in the fall. The long shed needles form a thatch that's
    good for skiing if you're not careful. Larch loose their needles
    completely but they're short enough to not be hazardous.

    Neither of those grow here. All the needletrees keep their needles all
    year long. The larch must be so... naked.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 10:05:20 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0100, D wrote:

    I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
    the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
    where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
    practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you
    mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.

    Prophet in his own land... iirc Thomas Merton, who was well versed in
    Zen, pointed out the similarities to Christian mysticism and suggested you didn't really need to make the 'journey to the east'.


    I reached the same conclusion many years ago. Thank you, Merton was the
    name I was looking for but didn't find. Anthony de Mello I think is
    another one of those fusion guys.

    I did follow on the the links, and on it I saw that todays Zen is a fairly modern invention. I was not aware of that. It was renovated during the
    Meiji restoration. In india, some guy tried to merge marxism and buddhism
    in the same "modern" spirit.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 10:07:36 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
    environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
    buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
    shit hits the fan".

    An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.


    Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this old
    trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very pro-windows,
    and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not
    the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd
    take care of everything and that they would never have to see a terminal,
    and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.

    The only thing we can hope is that the PoC goes to pieces, and then I
    might be able to sneak back in.

    Well... off to the next deal! =)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 10:09:49 2024
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:58:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    "We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
    "Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1
    guaranteed debt then"
    "But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
    "Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"

    I remember an article in the WSJ about the great new idea of creating a tranche of mortgages likely to fail, peddle the derivatives, and wait for
    the failure and subsequent insurance payout.

    I'm not interested in the stock market or economics in general but I
    thought 'this isn't going to end well.' I thought the same about the 1999 'Financial Services Modernization Act' that removed the Glass-Steagal controls with the financiers promising they weren't going to do anything stupid this time.

    I'm not prescient nor do I claim any expertise in economics, foreign
    policy, and so forth but it's depressing how often my personal analysis proves to be correct versus the 'experts'.


    I think one reason for this is that you, and I, can often analyze in the comfort of our own homes and we are not public persons.

    The glamour experts are often public persons and they thrive in the spot
    light. That means that they must adapt their analyzes to what sells at the moment.

    Then you have the other strategy adopted by Dr Doom who confidently
    predicts a disaster every year, until he finally is right, and then he is dusted off and paraded through the media, only to then be forgotten for
    about 6-7 years until he is right again. ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 10:20:41 2024
    On Tue, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:


    Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
    spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
    knowledgeable!

    I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
    blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
    it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though parallels my understanding of the world.

    Ah, Kim is an excellent book! I'm a big fan of Kipling. Sometimes, when
    I'm in the mood, I direct woke people to "The white mans burden". ;)

    As for asian isms and philosophy I was reading a lot of it in my teenage
    years. Then followed the years of work and earning money, and after a
    while I delved into christians mysticism, and that's when the enormous
    amounts of simlarities hit me.

    Now it goes in cycles. Busy at work, little reading, little work, plenty
    of reading.

    However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
    original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
    contra Nietzsche.

    This is a problem. I am an optimist (long term) by nature, so sin,
    suffering etc. never really corresponded with me. Naturally I'm more into
    life affirming things.

    I agree completely! I do like Schopenhauers short philosophical texts
    about everyday life (Parerga und paralipomena). Some of them make
    perfect sense and are quite approachable.

    I've got Hollingdale's 'Essays and Aphorisms' that is a selection. I don't know how complete it is. I have read that during his service in WWI Hitler carried a copy of Schopenhauer's writings in his knapsack. I assume it was Parerga and not the two volumes of The World.

    Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers in
    WW1? Hmm, maybe not.

    But his magnum opus I don't agree with at all.

    For me that's back to his pessimism. I think the real person of the 'obit anus, abit onus' quote would have been more interesting than the intellectual. He probably had a few good rants on Hegel too.

    Could he be the original Troll? No, surely that must be Socrates. As a
    man with trollish inclinations, I'm happy that I'm not dealt with like
    the greek dealt with their proto-troll. ;)

    I also do not like philosophers with verbal diarrhea. I like philosopher
    who can communicate their thoughts with a minimum of writing. Even though
    I find him quite complicated, in terms of writing style, I also like Wittgenstein.

    Nietzsche on the other hand, is much better at writing, and although I
    do not think that it is just a bunch of random aphorisms, I do believe
    there is a theme, they are quite a puzzle to fit together.

    Add to that, that his views changed. My favourite is the middle period
    Nietzsche who does see the promise in science and rationality.

    That is more interesting than Schopenhauer. He may have done a little polishing but he was a one trick pony, unlike Nietzsche. I'm currently re- reading the unfinished 'Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks' that's quite linear. Prior to that I'd reread the late works, Twilight,
    Antichrist, and Ecce Homo. Next I'll redo the middle. It's been some time since I've read 'Untimely Meditations', the others I've hit more recently. TBH Zarathustra is my least favorite of the while corpus.

    I haven't really looked much into early Nietzsche, but if anything, I'll probably try one of his later works.


    But another thing I like about Nietzsche, at least for me, is that his
    short aphorisms serve as a spring board for me for my own reflections
    and philosophy. I find it very inspirational. The anti-christ I also
    like with its critique of institutionalized christianity and how
    damaging it has been to society.

    'The Will to Power' is one my bathroom book pile. I read random selections like some people do with the bible. I don't trust the llama as an editor
    but I'm glad she undertook the project.

    How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?

    Antichrist reminds me of the Jefferson Bible and some of the newer
    projects. Pauline Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus. I think by
    then Nietzsche felt bad about sniping at poor old Strauss.

    Haha, yes, the trollish tendencies again? ;)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 11:18:36 2024
    On 09/12/2024 21:12, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 12:37:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I think you have never been exposed to the Indian art of story telling.
    Read Salman Rushdies 'Haroun and the Sea of Stories'...

    iirc I took a run at 'The Satanic Verses' but couldn't get any traction. while I can understand the endless repetitions as an aid to verbal transmission it does get old in the sutras.


    I am not a fan of either the satanic verses or midnights children

    But 'Haroun' was written for a child, and is non political.

    Same as Kipling's 'Jungle book'

    Both pick up the penchant for story telling...in India


    He arrived at an Eastern view of the world from first principles Quite a
    feat.

    I think he remarked that when he finally encountered Buddhism it looked a
    lot like home.


    It is 0ne of the places that has some reason to exist
    --
    There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
    that sound good.

    Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 15:21:11 2024
    On 09/12/2024 21:51, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:56:56 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 08/12/2024 21:13, rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:

    Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
    I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol,
    but I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15.
    I've had a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything
    close to the strength of it since.

    No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
    paranoid experience like the first one.

    Many people 'don't remember' . Its cognitive dissonance. The ones that
    do, tell an interestng story.

    Some are better story tellers. Those who use psychedelics in search of a transformative may be predisposed to finding it.

    It is what it is. What people make of it is another matter.

    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 15:35:26 2024
    On 09/12/2024 22:12, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0100, D wrote:

    I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
    the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
    where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
    practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you
    mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.

    Prophet in his own land... iirc Thomas Merton, who was well versed in
    Zen, pointed out the similarities to Christian mysticism and suggested you didn't really need to make the 'journey to the east'.

    Mysticism is pretty much the same the world over. As I said some
    consider its the relics of a global shamanism that permeated the dawn of
    time.

    It all deals with non-ordinary states of mind. What differs, is how it
    is described and tge means by which you obtain them.



    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Tue Dec 10 15:32:49 2024
    On 09/12/2024 21:57, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
    I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core",
    and that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to
    using his teachings as a way to power starts.

    Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and
    personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified,
    formalized remains left.

    Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and
    wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes
    'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed
    laws to be divine rather than man made?

    What better way is there to get the "tribe" to not question the "moral
    laws" than to convince them that their God explicitly deemed these so.
    Who are you, lowly tribe member, to question the "word of God".....

    One just have to be successful in the process of selling of the 'laws'
    as "divine from God" to the tribe members.

    Of all the people in the world, excepting Freud, the Jews are the very
    best psychologists.
    That is ultimately what made Marx so dangerous. Instead of setting up a narrative that guaranteed peace and the rule of law, he invented a
    narrative of hatred and victimhood that appealed to the very worst sort
    of people.

    Nasty chippy little kraut.



    --
    The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
    private property.

    Karl Marx

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Rich on Tue Dec 10 15:29:41 2024
    On 09/12/2024 21:53, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09/12/2024 15:28, Rich wrote:
    ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
    environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
    buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
    shit hits the fan".

    LOL.

    Most support contracts are not worth wiping your bottom on.

    They are just designed to make money out of.

    The sub prime mortgage crisis was typical of such.

    "We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
    "Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1
    guaranteed debt then"
    "But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
    "Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"


    http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/story.jpg

    Nice...

    Although I doubt that anyone actually asked the "what if" question
    about the insurance companies in the run-up to the explosion.

    Oh they did. My then BiL was deep into finance and banking at the time
    and was literally shaking his head in disbelief. The financial times had
    grave doubts.

    Cambridge city council bunged 8 million into Icelandic banks which was
    stupid. I asked whether the bursar had ever read the FT. The reply came
    back 'no, he is too busy'

    My jaw has never actually returned to the correct place. A man in charge
    of investing millions of pounds of public money is 'too busy' to read
    the most important financial paper in the world?

    Apparently the job consist in random picking of half a dozen investments
    from an apprioved list. On that list were several banks that needed
    rescuing ultimately..

    How someone with no apparent experience in finance or accounting got
    that job I cannot say.

    It was the same with GM bonds. GM bonds were - or should have been -
    junk. GM was essentially bankrupt.

    And yet they were trading on the basis that the political fallout from
    letting GM crash and burn was such that the government would always bail
    them out


    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 15:39:45 2024
    On 09/12/2024 22:23, rbowman wrote:
    'm not interested in the stock market or economics in general but I
    thought 'this isn't going to end well.' I thought the same about the 1999 'Financial Services Modernization Act' that removed the Glass-Steagal controls with the financiers promising they weren't going to do anything stupid this time.

    Indeed. I was peripherally interested. For reasons I wont go into here.
    All the signs were of a major crash, but in the end only Lehman went to
    the wall and here Arthur Andersen, crooks of the first order.

    The world has been bumbling along on fantasy finance ever since.

    Taking on debt that will never be repaid

    We need a world war to wipe some slates clean frankly

    I'm not prescient nor do I claim any expertise in economics, foreign
    policy, and so forth but it's depressing how often my personal analysis proves to be correct versus the 'experts'.

    Wood and trees mate. You are nicely distant and can take objective views.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 15:42:56 2024
    On 09/12/2024 23:15, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:


    Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
    spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
    knowledgeable!

    I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
    blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
    it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though parallels my understanding of the world.

    However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
    original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
    contra Nietzsche.


    The guy who wrote Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is a committed
    Christian., IN one of his books he likens sin, to stalling an aeroplane.
    Them's the rules, break than and shit results

    "He who shits in the road, will meet flies in his return"



    --
    In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
    gets full Marx.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Tue Dec 10 15:50:02 2024
    On 10/12/2024 04:41, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2024-12-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

    Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
    environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
    buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
    shit hits the fan".

    An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if
    they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.

    Several years ago Microsoft's buzzphrase against Linux was "total cost
    of ownership" (TCO). In other words, M$ products cost money, but the
    support more than makes up for it. It was amazing how fast evidence
    to the contrary piled up. "TCO" disappeared from the M$ marketing
    lexicon pretty fast.

    ROFLMAO

    Indeed. Total cost of ownership of SCO UNIX was amazingly low, even
    after you had bought the license
    Not much goes wrong with a wyse 50

    --
    Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 10 15:54:03 2024
    On 10/12/2024 08:58, D wrote:
    I would _love_ to do that kind of experiment, tring out some psylocybin
    on hard core atheists, or even better, not even telling them what the
    test is about, and see the reaction and what they experience.

    Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is
    about finding god, to compare.

    My research suggest that everybody ends up in the same place, but some
    use the language of religion to describe it and some do not.

    It is difficult to describe a state of mind in which language and
    internal verbalisation has broken down.

    It is in an utterly prosaic and un 'gosh wow' way 'beyond our
    comprehension'. To look at something and not recognise it.

    --
    “It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
    authorities are wrong.”

    ― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 10 15:48:25 2024
    On 09/12/2024 23:19, D wrote:
    I think you might enjoy the book The Shaky Game - Einstein, Realism and
    the Quantum Theory.

    An excerpt...

    "Realism is dead. Its death was announced by the neopositivists who
    realized that they could accept all the results of science, including
    all the members of the scientific zoo, and still declare that the
    questions raised by the existence claims of realism were mere pseudo- questions. Its death was hastened by the debates over the inter-
    pretation of quantum theory, where Bohr's nonrealist philosophy was seen
    to win out over Einstein's passionate realism. Its death was certified, finally, as the last two generations of physical scientists turned their backs on realism and have managed, nevertheless, to do science
    successfully without it. To be sure, some recent philo- sophical
    literature has appeared to pump up the ghostly shell and to give it new
    life. I think these efforts will eventually be seen and understood as
    the first stage in the process of mourning, the stage of denial. But I
    think we shall pass through this first stage and into that of
    acceptance, for realism is well and truly dead, and we have work to get
    on with, in identifying a suitable successor."

    Let me know if you would like to read more, and I can get you the book
    in electronic format (unless you haven't read it already).

    Sounds like fun. Books like that I pay money for. They are in general
    worth it.

    That excerpt pretty much sums it all up.

    People have seen the issues that arrive with realism but very few have
    come around to Kant's and Schopenhauer's TI.

    One of the late greats who is almost completely unknown, was Hilary
    Putnam. He really understood the problems, although I am not sure he
    felt he could offer any solutions.


    --
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
    returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

    Mark Twain

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 10 15:56:09 2024
    On 10/12/2024 09:05, D wrote:
    some guy tried to merge marxism and buddhism in the same "modern" spirit.

    *shudder*.


    --
    Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
    people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
    they are poor.

    Peter Thompson

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 10 20:09:15 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 09/12/2024 21:53, Rich wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09/12/2024 15:28, Rich wrote:
    ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
    environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
    buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the >>>> shit hits the fan".

    LOL.

    Most support contracts are not worth wiping your bottom on.

    They are just designed to make money out of.

    The sub prime mortgage crisis was typical of such.

    "We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
    "Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1
    guaranteed debt then"
    "But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
    "Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"


    http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/story.jpg

    Nice...

    Although I doubt that anyone actually asked the "what if" question
    about the insurance companies in the run-up to the explosion.

    Oh they did. My then BiL was deep into finance and banking at the time and was literally shaking his head in disbelief. The financial times had grave doubts.

    Cambridge city council bunged 8 million into Icelandic banks which was stupid. I asked whether the bursar had ever read the FT. The reply came back 'no, he is too busy'

    My jaw has never actually returned to the correct place. A man in charge of investing millions of pounds of public money is 'too busy' to read the most important financial paper in the world?

    Apparently the job consist in random picking of half a dozen investments from an apprioved list. On that list were several banks that needed rescuing ultimately..

    How someone with no apparent experience in finance or accounting got that job I cannot say.

    It was the same with GM bonds. GM bonds were - or should have been - junk. GM was essentially bankrupt.

    And yet they were trading on the basis that the political fallout from letting GM crash and burn was such that the government would always bail them out

    That is why I am in favour of having as a _requirement_ for senior public positions and political offices to

    1. Have a degree.
    2. Know english.

    Ideally it would be nice to have them pass a psychological test to make
    sure they are not complete psychos, and perhaps an intelligence test or
    two as well. =)

    I doubt I will see the above happen in my lifetime, although, if
    transhumanism is right, perhaps immortality is around the corner!

    I also think that having an academic degree actually is a requirement in
    some countries. In germany senior politicians seem to be very fond of plagiarizing their way to Ph.D:s.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 10 19:31:55 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:20:41 +0100, D wrote:


    Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers
    in WW1? Hmm, maybe not.

    Wikipedia claims about 150,000 copies of Zarathustra were given out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#cite_note-300

    The Kaufmann citation is from 'Nietzsche Philosopher, Psychologist,
    Antichrist' and says

    "Feelings ran high both in Germany, where Zarathustra was pushed to a new
    sales record as a "must" for the soldier's knapsack, and in England and
    the United States, where Nietzsche began to be considered as the apostle
    of German ruthlessness and barbarism."

    In his notes on his translation of Zarathustra Kaufmann says there are a
    few gems in the mire, a lot of very poor writing, and difficulties
    translating the puns and so forth. He also trashes Thomas Common's 1909 translation, saying at one point he wasn't sure if Common spoke either
    English or German very well.

    I wouldn't call Kaufmann a hostile translator but he wasn't a real fan.
    Being a Jew who fled Germany in 1939 he really hated Foerster-Nietzsche.
    He became the Nietzsche expert for a generation but he needs to be taken
    with a grain of salt.

    How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?

    He had left a few notes for a future work but never followed through. Foerster-Nietzsche used the rough outline sort the section headings and collected notes and jottings that seemed to fit. She may have edited some
    of those but the real argument is she promoted the collection as
    Nietzsche's final magnum opus, rather than Ecce Homo. I have Common's translation of Zarathustra which has a foreword by her. She throws in a
    few snippets from 'Ecce Homo' but tried to downplay it since some of it
    doesn't support her agenda.

    fwiw, while Kaudmann might have been full of himself when criticizing
    Common, Common's translation reads like the King James bible with all the archaic thee's and thou's.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 10 19:41:44 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:02:45 +0100, D wrote:

    Neither of those grow here. All the needletrees keep their needles all
    year long. The larch must be so... naked.

    There is a legend in the Forest Service about a brass hat who came from
    the east. In the fall the larch turn a golden color before the needles
    fall off, and in some places they make up a lot of the forest, intermixed
    with the pines and fir. The greenhorn looked up in the ridge and asked
    "what are all those dead trees?"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larix_laricina

    We had the eastern larch where I grew up and called it tamarack. Usually
    it's a scrubby little tree and is mixed in with other trees, some
    deciduous, so it doesn't stand out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_larch

    The Western larch is much larger and really stands out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 10 19:50:03 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:58:17 +0100, D wrote:

    This is a very interesting theory! I would _love_ to do that kind of experiment, tring out some psylocybin on hard core atheists, or even
    better, not even telling them what the test is about, and see the
    reaction and what they experience.

    Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is
    about finding god, to compare.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra

    "The Army was subject to the testing of LSD which occurred in three
    phases. The first phase included over 1,000 American soldiers who
    willingly volunteered for testing of chemical warfare experiments. Phase
    two had 96 volunteers who were induced with LSD in evaluation of the possibility of intelligence uses of the drug. The third phase included
    Projects THIRD CHANCE and DERBY HAT which conducted experiments on 16
    unwitting nonvolunteer subjects that after receiving LSD were interrogated
    as a part of operation field tests.[1]"


    "At the invitation of Stanford psychology graduate student Vik Lovell, an acquaintance of Allen Ginsberg, Ken Kesey volunteered to take part in what turned out to be a CIA-financed study under the aegis of MKUltra,[60] at
    the Menlo Park Veterans' Hospital[61][62] where he worked as a night aide.
    [63] The project studied the effects of psychoactive drugs, particularly
    LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, cocaine, AMT and DMT on people.[64]"


    Kesey said to himself "Man, this is some REALLY good shit!"

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 10 19:52:34 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:07:36 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this
    old trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very pro-windows,
    and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not
    the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd
    take care of everything and that they would never have to see a
    terminal, and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.

    We had two sites that used Linux on the servers although the workstations
    were Windows. In both cases the administrator was a Linux fan. When they
    left or moved up the ladder the servers were moved to Windows.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 10 19:58:26 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 15:42:56 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The guy who wrote Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is a committed
    Christian., IN one of his books he likens sin, to stalling an aeroplane. Them's the rules, break than and shit results

    Part of the pilot training program is inducing a stall and recovering.
    It's fun, as you pull the stick back until the nose seems to be pointed at
    the heavens and the stall warnings are blaring in your ears. Then the nose drops like a rock.

    I wonder how that fits with the sin metaphor? fwiw, I always was able to recover. People die when they panic and pull the stick back with all their might. You've got to push it forward and get airspeed back, which is
    counter intuitive.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 10 21:11:17 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 09/12/2024 22:12, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0100, D wrote:

    I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
    the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
    where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
    practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you
    mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.

    Prophet in his own land... iirc Thomas Merton, who was well versed in
    Zen, pointed out the similarities to Christian mysticism and suggested you >> didn't really need to make the 'journey to the east'.

    Mysticism is pretty much the same the world over. As I said some consider its the relics of a global shamanism that permeated the dawn of time.

    It all deals with non-ordinary states of mind. What differs, is how it is described and tge means by which you obtain them.

    I would add a small difference when it comes to purpose. In shamanism
    shamans used to visit the spirit plane with different purposes, while in
    later mysticism, generally the idea is to find union with god.

    I find that perhaps a small "off-shoot" or inheritor to shamanism is the occult, where people have more tangible intents and purposes behind their tripping.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 10 21:12:46 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 09/12/2024 23:15, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:


    Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
    spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
    knowledgeable!

    I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll >> admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
    blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
    it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though >> parallels my understanding of the world.

    However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't
    think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
    original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
    contra Nietzsche.


    The guy who wrote Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is a committed Christian., IN one of his books he likens sin, to stalling an aeroplane. Them's the rules, break than and shit results

    "He who shits in the road, will meet flies in his return"

    Excellent book! I highly recommend it. Hmm, long time since I last read
    it, I should try and dig it out of a moving box next time I'm back in
    sweden.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 10 21:14:25 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 10/12/2024 08:58, D wrote:
    I would _love_ to do that kind of experiment, tring out some psylocybin on >> hard core atheists, or even better, not even telling them what the test is >> about, and see the reaction and what they experience.

    Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is about
    finding god, to compare.

    My research suggest that everybody ends up in the same place, but some use the language of religion to describe it and some do not.

    It is difficult to describe a state of mind in which language and internal verbalisation has broken down.

    It is in an utterly prosaic and un 'gosh wow' way 'beyond our comprehension'. To look at something and not recognise it.

    I vaguely remember experiments with the god helmet, where some atheists
    just felt a vague present, like someone watching you, while more creative people had strong visions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 22:03:06 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:20:41 +0100, D wrote:


    Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers
    in WW1? Hmm, maybe not.

    Wikipedia claims about 150,000 copies of Zarathustra were given out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#cite_note-300

    Ahh, so I wasn't wrong. I checked an "AI" and it said I was wrong. Damn
    him! ;)

    The Kaufmann citation is from 'Nietzsche Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist' and says

    "Feelings ran high both in Germany, where Zarathustra was pushed to a new sales record as a "must" for the soldier's knapsack, and in England and
    the United States, where Nietzsche began to be considered as the apostle
    of German ruthlessness and barbarism."

    In his notes on his translation of Zarathustra Kaufmann says there are a
    few gems in the mire, a lot of very poor writing, and difficulties translating the puns and so forth. He also trashes Thomas Common's 1909 translation, saying at one point he wasn't sure if Common spoke either English or German very well.

    I wouldn't call Kaufmann a hostile translator but he wasn't a real fan.
    Being a Jew who fled Germany in 1939 he really hated Foerster-Nietzsche.
    He became the Nietzsche expert for a generation but he needs to be taken
    with a grain of salt.

    How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?

    He had left a few notes for a future work but never followed through. Foerster-Nietzsche used the rough outline sort the section headings and collected notes and jottings that seemed to fit. She may have edited some
    of those but the real argument is she promoted the collection as
    Nietzsche's final magnum opus, rather than Ecce Homo. I have Common's translation of Zarathustra which has a foreword by her. She throws in a
    few snippets from 'Ecce Homo' but tried to downplay it since some of it doesn't support her agenda.

    fwiw, while Kaudmann might have been full of himself when criticizing
    Common, Common's translation reads like the King James bible with all the archaic thee's and thou's.

    Interesting. When the times is right, I think I'll have to see for myself!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 22:04:41 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:58:17 +0100, D wrote:

    This is a very interesting theory! I would _love_ to do that kind of
    experiment, tring out some psylocybin on hard core atheists, or even
    better, not even telling them what the test is about, and see the
    reaction and what they experience.

    Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is
    about finding god, to compare.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra

    "The Army was subject to the testing of LSD which occurred in three
    phases. The first phase included over 1,000 American soldiers who
    willingly volunteered for testing of chemical warfare experiments. Phase
    two had 96 volunteers who were induced with LSD in evaluation of the possibility of intelligence uses of the drug. The third phase included Projects THIRD CHANCE and DERBY HAT which conducted experiments on 16 unwitting nonvolunteer subjects that after receiving LSD were interrogated
    as a part of operation field tests.[1]"


    "At the invitation of Stanford psychology graduate student Vik Lovell, an acquaintance of Allen Ginsberg, Ken Kesey volunteered to take part in what turned out to be a CIA-financed study under the aegis of MKUltra,[60] at
    the Menlo Park Veterans' Hospital[61][62] where he worked as a night aide. [63] The project studied the effects of psychoactive drugs, particularly
    LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, cocaine, AMT and DMT on people.[64]"


    Kesey said to himself "Man, this is some REALLY good shit!"


    I think that fits percetly with the drugs affecting the speech centers! ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Dec 10 22:06:23 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:07:36 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this
    old trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very
    pro-windows,
    and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not
    the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd
    take care of everything and that they would never have to see a
    terminal, and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.

    We had two sites that used Linux on the servers although the workstations were Windows. In both cases the administrator was a Linux fan. When they
    left or moved up the ladder the servers were moved to Windows.

    Yep... a story that is sadly waaaaay too common! And todays story... some
    of the students a colleague of mine is currently teaching networking
    thought the exam was too difficult, so they told the school they will
    refuse taking it, until it is made easier. ;)

    The key here is that each students brings the school a nice profit of 8000
    EUR per year, so the threat of a student dropping out very often softens
    the heart of the school, to the great frustration of the teachers. =/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Dec 10 22:49:06 2024
    On 2024-12-10, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    The guy who wrote Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is a committed
    Christian., IN one of his books he likens sin, to stalling an aeroplane.

    I like that one - it's a great metaphor. I have a number of
    Richard Bach's books, but I don't recall seeing that one.

    Them's the rules, break than and shit results

    I guess you could define God (or Mother Nature or whatever floats
    your boat) as the one who makes the rules. At least those rules
    which are beyond any human persuasion to bend.

    "He who shits in the road, will meet flies in his return"

    It all comes down to the fact that actions have consequences.
    So many people have been denying this for so long (and have
    worked so hard to build a social structure that lets them
    get away with it, at least for a while) that the concept
    of actions having consequences is now largely forgotten.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 10 23:15:44 2024
    On 10/12/2024 21:04, D wrote:
    Kesey said to himself "Man, this is some REALLY good shit!"


    I think that fits percetly with the drugs affecting the speech centers! 😉

    I have somewhere a very old book detailing some of the early research in
    that area.
    In one case the subject was subjected to Rohrsach (Ink blot) tests.
    In one case he was shown the blot and asked what it resembled. After a
    very long pause he said 'squirrels'

    After the test was complete his answers were reviewed and he was asked
    by he had said 'squirrels'.

    "Well" he said "I had a lot of trouble understanding the question, but
    then I did and I looked, and really it don't look like anything. But I
    thought 'these guys have gone to a lot of trouble, and I don't want to disappoint them', so I looked again. and I thought it looked vaguely
    like bears, but I couldn't remember the word for bears' so I said
    'squirrels' instead"


    --
    "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
    and understanding".

    Marshall McLuhan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 11 01:44:19 2024
    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:03:06 +0100, D wrote:

    archaic thee's and thou's.

    Interesting. When the times is right, I think I'll have to see for
    myself!

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1998/1998-h/1998-h.htm

    That's the Commmon translation with Foedster-Nietzsche's introduction.

    Amazon has Hollingdale's translation for the staggering sum of $0.29 on
    Kindle. There are quite a few other translations of Zarathustra as well as other works that are very inexpensive on Kindle.

    A good way to start a fight in a barroom full of Nietzsche scholars is to
    ask which is the best English translation. Kaufmann is the usual answer
    but he disagreed with much of Nietzsche's thought, hated Common, who was conveniently dead when Kaufmann did his translation, and didn't think much
    of Zarathustra. Others like Common, followed by Hollingdale.

    The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can really
    be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he questions
    if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and associations the words had in the original.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Dec 11 10:57:49 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 10/12/2024 21:04, D wrote:
    Kesey said to himself "Man, this is some REALLY good shit!"


    I think that fits percetly with the drugs affecting the speech centers! 😉

    I have somewhere a very old book detailing some of the early research in that area.
    In one case the subject was subjected to Rohrsach (Ink blot) tests.
    In one case he was shown the blot and asked what it resembled. After a very long pause he said 'squirrels'

    After the test was complete his answers were reviewed and he was asked by he had said 'squirrels'.

    "Well" he said "I had a lot of trouble understanding the question, but then I did and I looked, and really it don't look like anything. But I thought 'these guys have gone to a lot of trouble, and I don't want to disappoint them', so I looked again. and I thought it looked vaguely like bears, but I couldn't remember the word for bears' so I said 'squirrels' instead"

    Fascinating!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Dec 11 11:03:28 2024
    On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:03:06 +0100, D wrote:

    archaic thee's and thou's.

    Interesting. When the times is right, I think I'll have to see for
    myself!

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1998/1998-h/1998-h.htm

    That's the Commmon translation with Foedster-Nietzsche's introduction.

    Amazon has Hollingdale's translation for the staggering sum of $0.29 on Kindle. There are quite a few other translations of Zarathustra as well as other works that are very inexpensive on Kindle.

    A good way to start a fight in a barroom full of Nietzsche scholars is to
    ask which is the best English translation. Kaufmann is the usual answer
    but he disagreed with much of Nietzsche's thought, hated Common, who was conveniently dead when Kaufmann did his translation, and didn't think much
    of Zarathustra. Others like Common, followed by Hollingdale.

    Haha. Yes, Kaufmann is the name I've seen pop up the most when I checked Nietzsche translations. On the other hand, I am fairly fluent in german
    when it comes to reading, so maybe I should aim higher and actually read
    the original? =)

    The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can really
    be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he questions
    if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and associations the words had in the original.

    This is very commonly thought and communicated in russian and chinese
    culture. The conclusion is of course, the russiand and/or chinese culture
    is so sublime it can never be translated or understood by western
    barbarians. ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 12 01:11:04 2024
    On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:03:28 +0100, D wrote:


    Haha. Yes, Kaufmann is the name I've seen pop up the most when I checked Nietzsche translations. On the other hand, I am fairly fluent in german
    when it comes to reading, so maybe I should aim higher and actually read
    the original? =)

    https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7205/pg7205-images.html

    Du grosses Gestirn! Was wäre dein Glück, wenn du nicht Die hättest,
    welchen du leuchtest!

    Common has

    "Thou great star! What would be thy happiness if thou hadst not those for
    whom thou shinest!"

    Kaufmann has

    "You great star, what would your happiness be had you not those for whom
    you shine?"

    One criticism of Kaufmann is he rearranges Nietzsche's idiosyncratic punctuation. The newer translations mostly follow Kaufmann, some with
    slightly different sentence structure or wording. After all when you're
    doing the 15th translation you need to do something differently.

    The real question is what effect was Nietzsche striving for? His father
    was a Lutheran minister so he had plenty of exposure to Luther's bible translation. Was he trying to adopt the tone or parody it?

    While the archaic language can put people off Common does capture the feel
    of du/sie and behind that the attempt by bible translators to capture the original singular/plural pronoun distinctions.

    Personally, I'll go for the readable versions. I'd never read the New
    Testament due to the traditional two column layout and the somewhat
    stilted language. Oddly one of the things issued in boot camp was "Good
    News for Modern Man", and I finally got around to reading it. Bible people
    will argue about the dynamic translation but at least I read it. Of course there wasn't much else to read besides the green book with its wisdom
    about which side of a Claymore gets pointed to whoever you're trying to
    kill.




    The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can
    really be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he
    questions if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and
    associations the words had in the original.

    This is very commonly thought and communicated in russian and chinese culture. The conclusion is of course, the russiand and/or chinese
    culture is so sublime it can never be translated or understood by
    western barbarians.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 12 03:07:45 2024
    On 12/10/24 3:52 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:

    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 13:39:51 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I've heard about it, but I do not think they supported a laptop last
    time I checked it out, and was VM-only, but perhaps things have moved
    in the right direction!

    This is the truth! As long as I can have some basic tools, vim, xfce,
    wifi and decent battery life (oh, and suspend), I'm a happy camper!

    It remains mind-boggling to me how poor power-management/laptop support
    is in the FOSS world, outside of Linux (which gets it mostly by virtue
    of being the proverbial 800-lb. gorilla, relative to the other players.)
    OpenBSD I can understand, those people *exclusively* care about server
    environments, but it's surprising how spotty NetBSD is with it, and
    even moreso something like Haiku which is intended specifically for use
    in a desktop personal-computer context...

    This is the truth! I get about 14 hours or so out of my 1 year old Asus
    with linux if I really make an effort. FreeBSD when I tested it 1 year
    ago looked very promising, but since I did not have a lot of time for testing, I never maxed it out.

    I followed this guide:

    https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2018/11/28/the-power-to-serve-freebsd-power-management/


    Had an EEEpc ... great little unit ! Then I dropped
    it off a ladder while aligning a security camera :-(

    Ran MX.

    Actually this laptop runs MX too ... it's been a good
    system for most everything. doesn't consistently rank
    so high on DistroWatch for nothing. Have NOT 'updated'
    to a BookWORM version though ... and won't.

    Working on FreeBSD for an N95-based BMax micro-box.
    Got everything good in a VM - now to put it on the
    hardware .....

    Hey, has anyone ever tried to 'dd' a VirtualBox VM
    onto real hardware ??? Get a really good image and
    Grub2 *might* be able to find it and make it bootable.
    MX has a utility for creating a clone, bootable,
    customized system - it's been useful more than once.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Dec 12 08:22:58 2024
    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 03:07:45 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Had an EEEpc ... great little unit ! Then I dropped it off a ladder
    while aligning a security camera :-(

    I've still got mine. The OEM OS wouldn't handle WPA2 so I sidelined it.
    Earlier this year I got it up and running with Q4OS after a couple of
    failed installs when it ran out of room. The Trinity desktop is
    lightweight and being a KDE derivative has the Windows XP feel the
    original Linux had.

    I jumped on it when it first came out as something small and cheap enough
    to stuff into a motorcycle saddlebag.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 12 03:38:48 2024
    On 12/10/24 4:06 PM, D wrote:


    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:07:36 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this
    old trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very
    pro-windows,

    Then not worth suffering for ....

    and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not >>> the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd >>> take care of everything and that they would never have to see a
    terminal, and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.

    We had two sites that used Linux on the servers although the workstations
    were Windows. In both cases the administrator was a Linux fan. When they
    left or moved up the ladder the servers were moved to Windows.

    Yep... a story that is sadly waaaaay too common! And todays story...
    some of the students a colleague of mine is currently teaching
    networking thought the exam was too difficult, so they told the school
    they will refuse taking it, until it is made easier. ;)

    Then FAIL them all ... no mercy.

    The key here is that each students brings the school a nice profit of
    8000 EUR per year, so the threat of a student dropping out very often
    softens the heart of the school, to the great frustration of the
    teachers. =/


    Ah ... Gen-X/A2 ... it it ain't easy/zero-IQ then it's
    not worth attempting :-)

    Look up the US term "DEI" .....

    The SCHOOL - well - the the profit per-student likely
    dictates its sympathies .....

    Somewhere, at least for now, there WILL be some who
    actually want to learn/practice the Black Arts of
    Linux/Unix and do-it-yourself programming. HIRE THEM !

    Kinda worried about BEYOND Now .....

    As some point the "AI" will be called upon to do
    it all. Then, for people, it's all MAGIC afterwards.
    NO comprehension of what/why/how.

    I speak as an oracle here ... just watch ......

    SOON NOW - the "AI" will be giving advice/code on
    how to improve the "AI". Humans won't Get It - and
    will just sign-off on the upgrades in hope of
    more $$$. THAT ought to be interesting :-)

    A little bit of advice ... while you can ... get
    a fairly good general-purpose PC and install one
    of the BSDs. OpenIndiana/Solaris is maybe an
    offbeat alt (it's OK) and even the odd Plan-9
    can be useful (though intended for distributed
    systems). This will give you fair access while
    kinda circumventing the "AI"s and spy apps and
    such for awhile.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Dec 12 10:21:18 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:03:28 +0100, D wrote:


    Haha. Yes, Kaufmann is the name I've seen pop up the most when I checked
    Nietzsche translations. On the other hand, I am fairly fluent in german
    when it comes to reading, so maybe I should aim higher and actually read
    the original? =)

    https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7205/pg7205-images.html

    Du grosses Gestirn! Was wäre dein Glück, wenn du nicht Die hättest, welchen du leuchtest!

    Common has

    "Thou great star! What would be thy happiness if thou hadst not those for whom thou shinest!"

    Kaufmann has

    "You great star, what would your happiness be had you not those for whom
    you shine?"

    Interesting comparison! It highlight my lack of german skills. My initial translation, would be "You great star, what would your happiness be, if
    you did not have those who you shine on". My feeling here is that "for
    whom you shine" implies that the sun exists for the people, but my initial translation would be that the people exist for the sun.

    Now I'm very curious to read some original and compare it with my
    Gutenberg downloads.

    One criticism of Kaufmann is he rearranges Nietzsche's idiosyncratic punctuation. The newer translations mostly follow Kaufmann, some with slightly different sentence structure or wording. After all when you're
    doing the 15th translation you need to do something differently.

    The real question is what effect was Nietzsche striving for? His father
    was a Lutheran minister so he had plenty of exposure to Luther's bible translation. Was he trying to adopt the tone or parody it?

    In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have borrowed
    for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern analytic
    philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern philosophy texts
    can be bone dry.

    While the archaic language can put people off Common does capture the feel
    of du/sie and behind that the attempt by bible translators to capture the original singular/plural pronoun distinctions.

    For me that fades into the background eventually. Same with reading the
    Iliad or Odyssey, at first it's a bit annoying, but after a while it
    flows.

    Personally, I'll go for the readable versions. I'd never read the New Testament due to the traditional two column layout and the somewhat
    stilted language. Oddly one of the things issued in boot camp was "Good
    News for Modern Man", and I finally got around to reading it. Bible people will argue about the dynamic translation but at least I read it. Of course there wasn't much else to read besides the green book with its wisdom
    about which side of a Claymore gets pointed to whoever you're trying to
    kill.

    Ah, so you were a military man? Somehow I get the image of a Rambo who
    retired to the wildernes!

    Or maybe we're in Airwolf territory? Or perhaps A-team? ;)




    The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can
    really be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he
    questions if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and
    associations the words had in the original.

    This is very commonly thought and communicated in russian and chinese
    culture. The conclusion is of course, the russiand and/or chinese
    culture is so sublime it can never be translated or understood by
    western barbarians.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Thu Dec 12 10:49:11 2024
    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/10/24 4:06 PM, D wrote:


    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:07:36 +0100, D wrote:

    Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this
    old trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very
    pro-windows,

    Then not worth suffering for ....

    This is the truth. If their PoC fails miserably I will be very happy. They
    said we're the first choice if that happens, but I doubt they will stress
    test their crappy system enough to experience any problems. The windows
    guys will make sure of that, so they don't risk getting "dirty linux" on
    their hands. ;)

    and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not >>>> the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd >>>> take care of everything and that they would never have to see a
    terminal, and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.

    We had two sites that used Linux on the servers although the workstations >>> were Windows. In both cases the administrator was a Linux fan. When they >>> left or moved up the ladder the servers were moved to Windows.

    Yep... a story that is sadly waaaaay too common! And todays story... some
    of the students a colleague of mine is currently teaching networking
    thought the exam was too difficult, so they told the school they will
    refuse taking it, until it is made easier. ;)

    Then FAIL them all ... no mercy.

    Oh, I wish! Sadly, as per the below, the economics of the school system
    won't allow me to do that. I am hoping that we can at least fail 4-8 of
    the worst students, so that they quit. THe wonderful irony is, that if
    that happens, yes, the school will be angry due to lost revenue, but the ratings of me and my teacher colleagues will sky rocket, since the
    complainers are gone! =)

    An old customer of mine once told me this...

    It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and has the
    most nr of people leave the program. This is bad. However... when we look
    at if the students get jobs after their education, your program has a 100%
    job ratio, and all of your students get salaries above the average for
    their age group. This is so strange!

    They could seriously not connect the dots between motivated, passionate students who _learn_ and the attractiveness of employing them!

    Today the battle continues...

    There are 3 participants in the current battle. Me and my teacher, the administrator and the manager.

    The administrator ordered us to lower the requirements of the exam, since
    the goal is to have everyone pass (obviously the goal is not to have them
    learn something). My teacher refused, and anger was boiling.

    So we had a meeting with the manager, the administrator, and us, and I
    manage to persuade them that there shall be no lowering of the standards,
    but they will get (for free) a few hours of extra teaching time.

    We agreed and the school was going to communicate it to the students.

    What do you think the school communicated? Hold on to your socks...

    The administrator told the class:

    Hello class, I really tried, but sadly your teacher refused. I'm so sorry
    and I tried hard, but you know how they are.

    It is wonderful to be a teacher when the school has your back! ;)

    The key here is that each students brings the school a nice profit of 8000 >> EUR per year, so the threat of a student dropping out very often softens
    the heart of the school, to the great frustration of the teachers. =/


    Ah ... Gen-X/A2 ... it it ain't easy/zero-IQ then it's
    not worth attempting :-)

    Look up the US term "DEI" .....

    You made me throw up on my keyboard!

    The SCHOOL - well - the the profit per-student likely
    dictates its sympathies .....

    This is the truth! I'm as much of a capitalis as the next guy, but this
    unholy public/private partnership where they get paid per student,
    regardless of knowledge is just absurd!

    Next year, the government is changing the rules. Schools will be penalized
    for students quitting a program, and will be rewarded the more students
    who pass.

    I think we can wave good bye to exams in the future. ;)

    It is sad though, because people who should not be there, will be there
    and they will waste 2 years of their lives. =(

    Somewhere, at least for now, there WILL be some who
    actually want to learn/practice the Black Arts of
    Linux/Unix and do-it-yourself programming. HIRE THEM !

    A business partner of mine never hires vocational school students due to
    my horror stories. He only hires them _if_ he has been the teacher. Then
    you can handpick the students who are passionate and actually enjoy IT.

    Kinda worried about BEYOND Now .....

    As some point the "AI" will be called upon to do
    it all. Then, for people, it's all MAGIC afterwards.
    NO comprehension of what/why/how.

    I see it every day when students instead of learning just take tasks and projects and iterate them through an AI. It's very embarassing when we do
    code reviews.

    I speak as an oracle here ... just watch ......

    SOON NOW - the "AI" will be giving advice/code on
    how to improve the "AI". Humans won't Get It - and
    will just sign-off on the upgrades in hope of
    more $$$. THAT ought to be interesting :-)

    A little bit of advice ... while you can ... get
    a fairly good general-purpose PC and install one
    of the BSDs. OpenIndiana/Solaris is maybe an
    offbeat alt (it's OK) and even the odd Plan-9
    can be useful (though intended for distributed
    systems). This will give you fair access while
    kinda circumventing the "AI"s and spy apps and
    such for awhile.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 12 20:08:48 2024
    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:21:18 +0100, D wrote:

    In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
    borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one
    of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
    philosophy texts can be bone dry.

    While he ultimately disagreed with him, Nietzsche learned a lot from Schopenhauer. They both are readable. Kant's answer to Hume isn't and
    Hegel, well...


    It's been a long time since I've read Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein, etc. I chewed on Principia in high school and tried to read some of the others
    later in life.

    Part of the problem is I realized my brain doesn't work that way. I've
    made a living employing logic all my life but it just 'happens'.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Dec 12 21:31:39 2024
    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:21:18 +0100, D wrote:

    In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
    borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one
    of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern
    analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
    philosophy texts can be bone dry.

    While he ultimately disagreed with him, Nietzsche learned a lot from Schopenhauer. They both are readable. Kant's answer to Hume isn't and
    Hegel, well...

    I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
    Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones
    history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.

    It's been a long time since I've read Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein, etc. I chewed on Principia in high school and tried to read some of the others
    later in life.

    Russell is not too bad. He has some nice essays. But his technical work is
    not my cup of tea.

    Part of the problem is I realized my brain doesn't work that way. I've
    made a living employing logic all my life but it just 'happens'.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 13 01:29:53 2024
    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:31:39 +0100, D wrote:

    I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
    Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.

    Schopenhauer is the original Debbie Downer. In Hollingdale's introduction
    to the 'Essays and Aphorisms' selection he theorizes the philosophy
    reflects the personality which was molded by events. The family business
    went bankrupt and it was a struggle for him to get his money. However he
    was stubborn and persistent, making out better than the other creditors.

    Then there was his fling at teaching when he scheduled his class in the
    same time slot as Hegel's. Nobody came. He could have rescheduled but
    chose to resign.

    'Will' didn't fly off the shelves. His mother was an author in her own
    right. He said that his works would be around long after hers were gone.
    She replied with something like, 'Yeah the entire first edition will still
    be unsold.' They didn't get along well.

    It's been years but iirc Hume's 'An Enquiry Concerning Human
    Understanding' was quite readable. His first attempt 'Treatise of Human
    Nature' was stillborn so he tried again.

    Hume triggered Kant's rebuttal and Schopenhauer thought highly of him. I
    think he gets mentioned once by Nietzsche lumped with the 'English physiologists'.

    I don't think I made it through Copleston's entire History but I
    definitely remember the cheap paperback volumes. I did make it as far a
    Zeno, that's for sure.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Fri Dec 13 04:56:59 2024
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and has
    the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad. However...
    when we look at if the students get jobs after their education, your
    program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your students get salaries
    above the average for their age group. This is so strange!

    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something

    This is why college success measures should be based upon how
    employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
    would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
    employable graduates.

    Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover out
    of each student during the student's time on campus. And by that
    measure they are all resounding successes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 13 01:55:35 2024
    On 12/12/24 3:22 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 03:07:45 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Had an EEEpc ... great little unit ! Then I dropped it off a ladder
    while aligning a security camera :-(

    I've still got mine. The OEM OS wouldn't handle WPA2 so I sidelined it. Earlier this year I got it up and running with Q4OS after a couple of
    failed installs when it ran out of room. The Trinity desktop is
    lightweight and being a KDE derivative has the Windows XP feel the
    original Linux had.

    I jumped on it when it first came out as something small and cheap enough
    to stuff into a motorcycle saddlebag.

    Exactly - and I've had many motorcycles.

    Don't/won't own a 'smartphone' - and at my age it's
    hard to focus on tiny text. Small laptops are ideal.
    Sometimes people tell me to just use Their App for
    some kind of online services ... I pull out my
    cheapo flip phone, end of discussion :-)

    I see flips have made a COMEBACK. There's an increasing
    segment who wants 'simple' and to-the-point without all
    the BS. The lid over the main screen is a big plus too.

    The EEEpc was affordable and JUST big enough and the
    performance was 'ok'. Used it for many years. Linux made
    it MUCH better and faster. Alas did not make it immune
    to gravity .......

    I think I made a VM out of Q4OS but never really did much
    with it. Desktops - LXDE if possible, XFCE if not. Like
    them lean and mean without 'eye candy' and such crap.

    Anyway, today, there are a number of lower-end Dells and
    HPs that are fair replacements for the EEEpc. With Win
    they suck, with Lin they LIVE. Had to replace the batt
    in one of my Dells recently though - the thing was
    getting WAY too hot during charging and would never
    quite fully charge. However the batt was fairly cheap,
    WITH the Dell name, and EZ to replace.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 186283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Rich on Fri Dec 13 02:20:53 2024
    On 12/12/24 11:56 PM, Rich wrote:
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and has
    the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad. However...
    when we look at if the students get jobs after their education, your
    program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your students get salaries
    above the average for their age group. This is so strange!

    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something

    Wow ... he understood this SO far back !

    But then there have been bureaucracies, and pointy-haired
    bosses, since antiquity ...

    This is why college success measures should be based upon how
    employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
    would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
    employable graduates.

    Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover out
    of each student during the student's time on campus. And by that
    measure they are all resounding successes.

    MONEY, rather than MERIT, has always been important - but
    I think it's become SO much the over-riding factor now
    that The Future is seriously endangered.

    Read back to the early universities. MOST students were
    just fops, kids of Rich Guys. They were sent there for
    'prestige' reasons, NOT to actually LEARN anything.
    Indeed it was considered pedestrian for 'gentlemen' TO
    learn anything. We're talking 1300s/1400s here ... the
    pattern was set .......

    As for the know-nothing kiddies getting high salaries ...
    maybe think of it in 'evolutionary' terms. They will
    destroy their employers, then move on and destroy even
    more employers. In the end, moronic employers will
    be selected-against :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 13 08:38:43 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 02:20:53 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Wow ... he understood this SO far back !

    Sinclair definitely got it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brass_Check

    He was an old school socialist but the fake news stories, suppression of events, and so forth accurately describes today's journalism. He also
    wrote 'Oil' about the Teapot Dome scandal, some of which was used in the
    movie 'There Will Be Blood'.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 13 08:30:53 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 01:55:35 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I think I made a VM out of Q4OS but never really did much with it.
    Desktops - LXDE if possible, XFCE if not. Like them lean and mean
    without 'eye candy' and such crap.

    I've got an old Acer 'netbook' that was the generation after eeePC as the industry tried to sort out tablets, fat phones, and so on. It had XP but
    this spring I went to Lubuntu. That distro did use LXDE originally but now
    it's LXQt. LXDE is still around but the original people moved to Qt when
    GTK development was lagging.

    The only problem I had was with the Broadcom wifi. I used a Panda USB
    dongle long enough to get the Broadcom drivers so now it's fine.

    When we first started looking at tablets at work we got a couple of Acer
    10" since they were easy to set up for development. After playing with
    them I got the 7" version. If I was going to carry a 10" I might as well
    use the 11" netbook with a real keyboard.

    When 3G was phasing out I went from a flip to a smart phone. I don't make
    that many phone calls but I have a couple of apps for geocaching, fitbit,
    and slack. Also I need it for 2FA. The company VPN uses Windows
    Authenticator.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 13 11:13:50 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:31:39 +0100, D wrote:

    I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
    Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones
    history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.

    Schopenhauer is the original Debbie Downer. In Hollingdale's introduction
    to the 'Essays and Aphorisms' selection he theorizes the philosophy
    reflects the personality which was molded by events. The family business
    went bankrupt and it was a struggle for him to get his money. However he
    was stubborn and persistent, making out better than the other creditors.

    Then there was his fling at teaching when he scheduled his class in the
    same time slot as Hegel's. Nobody came. He could have rescheduled but
    chose to resign.

    'Will' didn't fly off the shelves. His mother was an author in her own
    right. He said that his works would be around long after hers were gone.
    She replied with something like, 'Yeah the entire first edition will still
    be unsold.' They didn't get along well.

    It's been years but iirc Hume's 'An Enquiry Concerning Human
    Understanding' was quite readable. His first attempt 'Treatise of Human Nature' was stillborn so he tried again.

    Hume triggered Kant's rebuttal and Schopenhauer thought highly of him. I think he gets mentioned once by Nietzsche lumped with the 'English physiologists'.

    I don't think I made it through Copleston's entire History but I
    definitely remember the cheap paperback volumes. I did make it as far a
    Zeno, that's for sure.


    Very interesting! And wasn't there, as was so often the case among philosophers, the fact that Schopenhauer wasn't the most popular man with
    the ladies as well?

    Nietzsche certainly seemed to derive a lot of energy from a broken heart.

    Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
    of 12! ;) My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
    the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Rich on Fri Dec 13 11:34:15 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and has
    the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad. However...
    when we look at if the students get jobs after their education, your
    program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your students get salaries
    above the average for their age group. This is so strange!

    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something

    This is why college success measures should be based upon how
    employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
    would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
    employable graduates.

    Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover out
    of each student during the student's time on campus. And by that
    measure they are all resounding successes.

    Amen!

    It is sad that the elite universities have a monopoly on networking.
    That's basically the only value you get out of those programs.

    If it weren't for the networking part, any smart young man could get a
    really good education with all the free books and course material that's
    out on the internet, except (I guess) for practical disciplines that
    requires extensive labs.

    But computer science should be perfectly possible to reach a very high
    level by yourself using only your laptop and the internet. But you won't
    get the networking and connections though.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 13 11:38:03 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/12/24 3:22 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 03:07:45 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Had an EEEpc ... great little unit ! Then I dropped it off a ladder
    while aligning a security camera :-(

    I've still got mine. The OEM OS wouldn't handle WPA2 so I sidelined it.
    Earlier this year I got it up and running with Q4OS after a couple of
    failed installs when it ran out of room. The Trinity desktop is
    lightweight and being a KDE derivative has the Windows XP feel the
    original Linux had.

    I jumped on it when it first came out as something small and cheap enough
    to stuff into a motorcycle saddlebag.

    Exactly - and I've had many motorcycles.

    Don't/won't own a 'smartphone' - and at my age it's
    hard to focus on tiny text. Small laptops are ideal.
    Sometimes people tell me to just use Their App for
    some kind of online services ... I pull out my
    cheapo flip phone, end of discussion :-)

    I'm not even your age, but I agree completely. I have a nokia 110 4g, and
    it is perfect! Lasts me about 1.5 weeks without charging it.

    The only drawback is that I cannot use Uber so I pay 3-4x for a taxi the regular way. =(

    I see flips have made a COMEBACK. There's an increasing
    segment who wants 'simple' and to-the-point without all
    the BS. The lid over the main screen is a big plus too.

    The ones that are appearing where I am are sadly enormous "fake" flip
    phones that ru nfull blown android or kaios. Very crappy products and
    contain just as much surveillance tech as a smart phone.

    Nokia sold their dumdphone business to HMD, and I suspect HMD will shut it
    down within a few years.

    The only thing I miss on my Nokia is wifi hotspot, which is convenient
    when travelling, but it is not a must have feature.

    The EEEpc was affordable and JUST big enough and the
    performance was 'ok'. Used it for many years. Linux made
    it MUCH better and faster. Alas did not make it immune
    to gravity .......

    I think I made a VM out of Q4OS but never really did much
    with it. Desktops - LXDE if possible, XFCE if not. Like
    them lean and mean without 'eye candy' and such crap.

    Anyway, today, there are a number of lower-end Dells and
    HPs that are fair replacements for the EEEpc. With Win

    Are there any ones at around 10" to 11"? I loved my macbook air 11.6".
    Perfect size for me. Sadly it was cancelled, so now I have a 14" ASUS,
    which is really a bit too big for me.

    they suck, with Lin they LIVE. Had to replace the batt
    in one of my Dells recently though - the thing was
    getting WAY too hot during charging and would never
    quite fully charge. However the batt was fairly cheap,
    WITH the Dell name, and EZ to replace.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 13 10:42:22 2024
    On 12/12/2024 20:31, D wrote:


    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:21:18 +0100, D wrote:

    In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
    borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one
    of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern
    analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
    philosophy texts can be bone dry.

    While he ultimately disagreed with him, Nietzsche learned a lot from
    Schopenhauer. They both are readable. Kant's answer to Hume isn't and
    Hegel, well...

    I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
    Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    It's been a long time since I've read Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein,
    etc. I
    chewed on Principia in high school and tried to read some of the others
    later in life.

    Russell is not too bad. He has some nice essays. But his technical work
    is not my cup of tea.

    Part of the problem is I realized my brain doesn't work that way. I've
    made a living employing logic all my life but it just 'happens'.



    --
    "Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
    conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
    windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

    Alan Sokal

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to 186282@ud0s4.net on Fri Dec 13 11:41:12 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 12/12/24 11:56 PM, Rich wrote:
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and has
    the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad. However...
    when we look at if the students get jobs after their education, your
    program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your students get salaries
    above the average for their age group. This is so strange!

    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary
    depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair
    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something

    Wow ... he understood this SO far back !

    But then there have been bureaucracies, and pointy-haired
    bosses, since antiquity ...

    This is why college success measures should be based upon how
    employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
    would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
    employable graduates.

    Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover out
    of each student during the student's time on campus. And by that
    measure they are all resounding successes.

    MONEY, rather than MERIT, has always been important - but
    I think it's become SO much the over-riding factor now
    that The Future is seriously endangered.

    Read back to the early universities. MOST students were
    just fops, kids of Rich Guys. They were sent there for
    'prestige' reasons, NOT to actually LEARN anything.
    Indeed it was considered pedestrian for 'gentlemen' TO
    learn anything. We're talking 1300s/1400s here ... the
    pattern was set .......

    As for the know-nothing kiddies getting high salaries ...
    maybe think of it in 'evolutionary' terms. They will
    destroy their employers, then move on and destroy even
    more employers. In the end, moronic employers will
    be selected-against :-)

    What's happening is that many companies are just not hiring from
    vocational schools any longer because the quality of the students is too
    low.

    I sometimes hire from them, but _only_ when I have been the teacher. That allows me to pin point exactly who the passionate ones are, and those can
    be very powerful allies, at a low initial salary cost!

    But if I would not be the teacher, I would never dare to do that, since
    Gen Z, and especially Gen Z from vocational schools are completely crazy
    in most cases.

    Have a business partner who thinks exactly the same. He announced a linux
    sys admin job a few weeks back, and got 100 replies.

    1/3 he threw away because those were indians without swedish knowledge.
    1/3 were people about to retire who just want to wait until they are 65,
    and he wants someone long term, and not someone who disappear after 1 or 2 years, and 1/3 were from vocational schools, that he by default throws
    away. The search continues!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Dec 13 11:42:55 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 02:20:53 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Wow ... he understood this SO far back !

    Sinclair definitely got it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brass_Check

    He was an old school socialist but the fake news stories, suppression of events, and so forth accurately describes today's journalism. He also
    wrote 'Oil' about the Teapot Dome scandal, some of which was used in the movie 'There Will Be Blood'.


    Good movie. I enjoyed it!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 13 11:32:41 2024
    On 13/12/2024 10:41, D wrote:
    Have a business partner who thinks exactly the same. He announced a
    linux sys admin job a few weeks back, and got 100 replies.

    1/3 he threw away because those were indians without swedish knowledge.
    1/3 were people about to retire who just want to wait until they are 65,
    and he wants someone long term, and not someone who disappear after 1 or
    2 years, and 1/3 were from vocational schools, that he by default throws away. The search continues!

    In my day the vocational schools produced very high quality people who
    took practical approaches to problem solving.

    One guy couldn't really code, so he searched the internet and asked
    questions and arrived at working solutions that way. Respect.

    Another set were bright people with any degree in STEM except computer
    science.

    And a final set were wannabe computer geeks who read all the manuals and explored every single drop down menu entry and ended up rebuilding
    windows every week.

    Very useful at rebuilding customers wrecked windows installs...

    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 13 20:01:19 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:32:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    One guy couldn't really code, so he searched the internet and asked
    questions and arrived at working solutions that way. Respect.

    That is one of the qualities I looked for in interviews. Not an entirely accurate example but I knew they didn't have any experience with rust
    because it was invented last week. Can they figure it out?

    I'm biased because that reflects my personal experience. While RPI was a
    top ranked engineering college they didn't even have a computer science
    degree. We learned FORTRAN as a tool that might be useful in our career.
    Over the years I sometimes felt like I was trying to drink from a fire
    hose but I figured it out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 13 20:14:07 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:38:03 +0100, D wrote:

    I'm not even your age, but I agree completely. I have a nokia 110 4g,
    and it is perfect! Lasts me about 1.5 weeks without charging it.

    I've got a Nokia 4.2 that's served me well but the battery is starting to degrade. I'll probably go with another Nokia since they seem to have
    recovered with the HMD partnership.

    The only drawback is that I cannot use Uber so I pay 3-4x for a taxi the regular way. =(

    Last winter I had an eye operation where they insisted someone drive you
    home. I said I would call a cab. The nurse broke the news to me that there weren't any cabs left. I went home and set up an Uber account in
    preparation.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Dec 13 20:18:53 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that one. In general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
    directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 13 20:28:07 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:

    Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
    of 12! My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
    the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
    the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.

    I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
    petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
    natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sat Dec 14 05:18:48 2024
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    [-- text/plain, encoding 8bit, charset: UTF-8, 37 lines --]



    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and
    has the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad.
    However... when we look at if the students get jobs after their
    education, your program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your
    students get salaries above the average for their age group. This
    is so strange!

    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary
    depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair
    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something

    This is why college success measures should be based upon how
    employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
    would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
    employable graduates.

    Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover
    out of each student during the student's time on campus. And by
    that measure they are all resounding successes.

    Amen!

    It is sad that the elite universities have a monopoly on networking.
    That's basically the only value you get out of those programs.

    If it weren't for the networking part, any smart young man could get
    a really good education with all the free books and course material
    that's out on the internet, except (I guess) for practical
    disciplines that requires extensive labs.

    But computer science should be perfectly possible to reach a very
    high level by yourself using only your laptop and the internet. But
    you won't get the networking and connections though.

    Nor get the "magic sheet of paper" that says you passed all the rote memorization tests.

    And with so many jobs requiring the "magic sheet of paper" to even
    quallify to apply, it would be hard for that 'self taught' CS person to
    get their foot in the door to show that they were as good (or, from
    what I've seen, likely better) as many of the H1B's the company is
    otherwise hiring.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 11:28:53 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 12/12/2024 20:31, D wrote:


    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:21:18 +0100, D wrote:

    In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
    borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one >>>> of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern
    analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
    philosophy texts can be bone dry.

    While he ultimately disagreed with him, Nietzsche learned a lot from
    Schopenhauer. They both are readable. Kant's answer to Hume isn't and
    Hegel, well...

    I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
    Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones
    history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    Ah... he taught me well! ;) Any suggestions about a similar book about
    them, but with a more loving touch?

    It's been a long time since I've read Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein, etc. I >>> chewed on Principia in high school and tried to read some of the others
    later in life.

    Russell is not too bad. He has some nice essays. But his technical work is >> not my cup of tea.

    Part of the problem is I realized my brain doesn't work that way. I've
    made a living employing logic all my life but it just 'happens'.





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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 11:40:03 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 13/12/2024 10:41, D wrote:
    Have a business partner who thinks exactly the same. He announced a linux
    sys admin job a few weeks back, and got 100 replies.

    1/3 he threw away because those were indians without swedish knowledge. 1/3 >> were people about to retire who just want to wait until they are 65, and he >> wants someone long term, and not someone who disappear after 1 or 2 years, >> and 1/3 were from vocational schools, that he by default throws away. The
    search continues!

    In my day the vocational schools produced very high quality people who took practical approaches to problem solving.

    Those were the days. This is sadly no longer the case. =( Of course, there
    are still good people, but I know them since I teach them and meet them
    every other day. But as an employer, without that knowledge, it is very difficult to find them, and the rest are what spoil this type of
    education by simply not caring.

    One guy couldn't really code, so he searched the internet and asked questions and arrived at working solutions that way. Respect.

    Another set were bright people with any degree in STEM except computer science.

    And a final set were wannabe computer geeks who read all the manuals and explored every single drop down menu entry and ended up rebuilding windows every week.

    Very useful at rebuilding customers wrecked windows installs...

    When I had a consulting gig, building up a support department at a cloud provider, I had the chance to hire 6 of my old students. They performed
    very well, and by now they are all having above industry average salaries,
    with only a vocational degree. It is a nice feeling that I was able to
    give them a good start with their IT careers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to John Ames on Sat Dec 14 11:45:12 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:

    On 13 Dec 2024 08:30:53 GMT
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    Also I need it for 2FA. The company VPN uses Windows
    Authenticator.

    FWIW, it looks like WinAuth will run under WINE; that's been my go-to
    for any MS Authenticator nonsense. There's probably a native *nix GUI application for this out there somewhere, as well.

    https://winauth.github.io/winauth/download.html

    For many 2FA systems and sites, I use pass otp (https://github.com/tadfisher/pass-otp).

    Works really well!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 14 11:48:59 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:32:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    One guy couldn't really code, so he searched the internet and asked
    questions and arrived at working solutions that way. Respect.

    That is one of the qualities I looked for in interviews. Not an entirely accurate example but I knew they didn't have any experience with rust
    because it was invented last week. Can they figure it out?

    I always try, if possible, to do something practical to try and see how
    they approach a problem. Being involved in open source in their spare time
    or having some kind of technical hobby is also a nice indicator. But for
    me, the best way to find good people, has always been personal
    recommendations.

    I'm biased because that reflects my personal experience. While RPI was a
    top ranked engineering college they didn't even have a computer science degree. We learned FORTRAN as a tool that might be useful in our career.
    Over the years I sometimes felt like I was trying to drink from a fire
    hose but I figured it out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 14 11:53:02 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:38:03 +0100, D wrote:

    I'm not even your age, but I agree completely. I have a nokia 110 4g,
    and it is perfect! Lasts me about 1.5 weeks without charging it.

    I've got a Nokia 4.2 that's served me well but the battery is starting to degrade. I'll probably go with another Nokia since they seem to have recovered with the HMD partnership.

    The dumbphones are ok, but not great. Mostly living off the brand. My
    feeling is that they were much better in the 90s. In my more recent
    experience the buttons give up after 2-3 years.

    Their smartphones I don't know anything about, so maybe those are better.

    The only drawback is that I cannot use Uber so I pay 3-4x for a taxi the
    regular way. =(

    Last winter I had an eye operation where they insisted someone drive you home. I said I would call a cab. The nurse broke the news to me that there weren't any cabs left. I went home and set up an Uber account in
    preparation.

    Sadly that doesn't work in europe, or I never managed to get it to work on
    my computer. =( Bolt (European Uber clone) also say that you can use a web interface, but it also never works.

    Strangely enough, in eastern europe, there is a local taxi company that
    have a website that actually works and they do give you a fixed price. I
    wish they would expand to the rest of europe. ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 14 11:54:29 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that one. In general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
    directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.

    For me, to exagerate a bit, anglo-american seems more technical and dry,
    while continentals (incontinentals) seem more like poetry, or chicken soup
    for the soul.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 14 11:57:52 2024
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:

    Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
    of 12! My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
    the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
    uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
    the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.

    I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
    petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
    natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought.


    Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 14 11:13:08 2024
    On 13/12/2024 20:14, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:38:03 +0100, D wrote:

    I'm not even your age, but I agree completely. I have a nokia 110 4g,
    and it is perfect! Lasts me about 1.5 weeks without charging it.

    I've got a Nokia 4.2 that's served me well but the battery is starting to degrade. I'll probably go with another Nokia since they seem to have recovered with the HMD partnership.

    The only drawback is that I cannot use Uber so I pay 3-4x for a taxi the
    regular way. =(

    Last winter I had an eye operation where they insisted someone drive you home. I said I would call a cab. The nurse broke the news to me that there weren't any cabs left. I went home and set up an Uber account in
    preparation.

    I have one of those every 6 weeks

    I always drive home and don't tell them



    --
    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
    ― Groucho Marx

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 14 11:17:03 2024
    On 13/12/2024 20:18, rbowman wrote:
    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that one. In general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
    directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.

    I am agnostic. There is some (to me) very good German philosophy and
    some very good English philosophy. And some very bad...

    ...and the aphorism is that all the problems of French philosophy would
    not have arisen if they had in fact written in German :-)

    I think the UK is good on logic, but Germans thought more deeply about metaphysics.

    --
    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
    ― Groucho Marx

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 14 11:18:20 2024
    On 14/12/2024 10:54, D wrote:


    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that
    one. In
    general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
    directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.

    For me, to exagerate a bit, anglo-american seems more technical and dry, while continentals (incontinentals) seem more like poetry, or chicken
    soup for the soul.

    Yes. . To the extent that you have the Kierkegaard...couldn't get beyond chapter one...



    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From D@21:1/5 to Rich on Sat Dec 14 13:08:20 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    [-- text/plain, encoding 8bit, charset: UTF-8, 37 lines --]



    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and
    has the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad.
    However... when we look at if the students get jobs after their
    education, your program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your
    students get salaries above the average for their age group. This
    is so strange!

    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary >>> depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair
    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something

    This is why college success measures should be based upon how
    employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
    would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
    employable graduates.

    Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover
    out of each student during the student's time on campus. And by
    that measure they are all resounding successes.

    Amen!

    It is sad that the elite universities have a monopoly on networking.
    That's basically the only value you get out of those programs.

    If it weren't for the networking part, any smart young man could get
    a really good education with all the free books and course material
    that's out on the internet, except (I guess) for practical
    disciplines that requires extensive labs.

    But computer science should be perfectly possible to reach a very
    high level by yourself using only your laptop and the internet. But
    you won't get the networking and connections though.

    Nor get the "magic sheet of paper" that says you passed all the rote memorization tests.

    And with so many jobs requiring the "magic sheet of paper" to even
    quallify to apply, it would be hard for that 'self taught' CS person to
    get their foot in the door to show that they were as good (or, from
    what I've seen, likely better) as many of the H1B's the company is
    otherwise hiring.


    Is that really so important in the tech-sector? When I was young I'd meet
    many people in IT with very diverse backgrounds. But maybe it has become
    worse the past decade? =(

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 14 13:03:36 2024
    On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:


    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:

    Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out >>> of 12!  My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
    the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
    uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
    the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.

    I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
    petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
    natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in
    thought.


    Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!

    Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it clearly separates the term, from the reality it describes.

    Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.

    The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in that
    he regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.

    As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid
    model in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not -
    was to be distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....

    The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish
    mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science
    of the Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.

    The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a
    fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths
    and Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to
    Materialism and Laws of Nature.

    "Maps of consciousness" as Ralph Metzner put it.

    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 14 13:14:03 2024
    On 14/12/2024 10:28, D wrote:


    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    Ah... he taught me well! ;) Any suggestions about a similar book about
    them, but with a more loving touch?

    There was a series of interviews on BBC television back in the day when
    it had intelligent content where Bryan Magee talks with various
    philosophers about other philosophers.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhP9EhPApKE8B-g03RivIMt7llh1cyEGV

    I really recommend these.

    Copplestone is adamant that 'this is what they said, but of course I
    don't agree'


    Hilary Putnam is my idea of the greatest philosopher of the 20th
    century, along with Sir Roger Scruton.

    If you don't like woke leftism, Scruton is your man. He tore the New
    Left to pieces beautifully, but being in some sense a Christian, he
    didn't twist the knife in afterwards.

    "Fools, Frauds and Firebrands: Thinkers of the New Left" is a hoot.
    Unless you are one of them...

    --
    Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
    – Will Durant

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 14 13:15:58 2024
    On 14/12/2024 10:40, D wrote:
    It is a nice feeling that I was able to give them a good start with
    their IT careers.

    My company was never able to pay the people what they were worth, but
    yes, I have great hopes that some of the people we employed went on to
    better [paid] things, with my small help


    --
    The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
    diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
    into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
    what it actually is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 14 13:51:30 2024
    On 14/12/2024 12:08, D wrote:
    s that really so important in the tech-sector? When I was young I'd meet
    many people in IT with very diverse backgrounds. But maybe it has become worse the past decade? =(

    I ended work as a programmer because all the new kids on the block
    wanted someone who spoke the same compSci gobbledygook as they did:
    'must have experience of Blatweiler's functional decomposition
    techniques' and 'be fluent in the formal prototyping language Z'.

    Which was immediately understood that a compSci had got given a project,
    had tried to use some thing he had learnt at Uni, fucked it up
    completely and needed someone to get him out of a self inflicted disaster.

    Not tell him to throw that shit down the toilet and learn how to run a
    software project.


    --
    Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
    But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 19:02:23 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 10:54, D wrote:


    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that one. In >>> general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
    directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.

    For me, to exagerate a bit, anglo-american seems more technical and dry,
    while continentals (incontinentals) seem more like poetry, or chicken soup >> for the soul.

    Yes. . To the extent that you have the Kierkegaard...couldn't get beyond chapter one...

    I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl Jaspers,
    but haven't gotten around to it yet.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 19:09:59 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 10:40, D wrote:
    It is a nice feeling that I was able to give them a good start with their
    IT careers.

    My company was never able to pay the people what they were worth, but yes, I have great hopes that some of the people we employed went on to better [paid] things, with my small help

    Amen!

    Reminds me of one guy in my team. He's half swedish and half russian, and
    has lived his entire life in sweden. He was fired because of him being
    half russian. The company even said so.

    He called me and asked me for advice, and I told him that he was in the
    right, told him to threaten some union action, and not accept the first
    bid from the company.

    In the end he got 4 or 5 months salary, and I was also his reference, so
    after a few months he landed a job with about a 30% higher salary.

    Boy am I glad I terminated my contract with that company. They are doing
    their best to sabotage themselves.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 19:07:00 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 10:28, D wrote:


    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    Ah... he taught me well! ;) Any suggestions about a similar book about
    them, but with a more loving touch?

    There was a series of interviews on BBC television back in the day when it had intelligent content where Bryan Magee talks with various philosophers about other philosophers.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhP9EhPApKE8B-g03RivIMt7llh1cyEGV

    I really recommend these.

    Got it! I have all episodes downloaded on my tv computer. I really like
    the programs. Only thing is that they are perhaps a bit too compressed.
    But the format is nice, and the experts (in my opinion) seem to know what
    they are talking about.

    Somehow I feel sad when I watch it, because programs like that almost do
    not exist on TV any longer.

    Copplestone is adamant that 'this is what they said, but of course I don't agree'


    Hilary Putnam is my idea of the greatest philosopher of the 20th century, along with Sir Roger Scruton.

    If you don't like woke leftism, Scruton is your man. He tore the New Left to pieces beautifully, but being in some sense a Christian, he didn't twist the knife in afterwards.

    Interesting! Will definitely check out Scruton.

    "Fools, Frauds and Firebrands: Thinkers of the New Left" is a hoot. Unless you are one of them...



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 14 18:37:32 2024
    On 14/12/2024 18:02, D wrote:


    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 10:54, D wrote:


    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that
    one. In
    general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
    directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.

    For me, to exagerate a bit, anglo-american seems more technical and
    dry, while continentals (incontinentals) seem more like poetry, or
    chicken soup for the soul.

    Yes. . To the extent that you have the Kierkegaard...couldn't get
    beyond chapter one...

    I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl
    Jaspers, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

    I am not sure it was worth buying the book frankly.

    Enormous quantities of philosophy can safely be ignored by most people
    and a fair chunk by everybody.

    An awful lot is trying to keep Christianity alive against the onslaught
    of rational materialism.


    --
    "I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
    puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 19:40:45 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:


    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:

    Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out >>>> of 12!  My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and >>>> the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very >>>> uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until >>>> the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.

    I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
    petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
    natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought. >>>

    Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!

    Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it clearly separates the term, from the reality it describes.

    Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.

    The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in that he regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.

    As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid model in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not - was to be distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....

    What is your opinion on the transcendental error?

    The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is what
    has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s tendency
    to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of reality
    itself. According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly
    seeks to explore what we can understand about our experiences, he
    mistakenly concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive
    faculties on a reality that could be structured differently. This leads to
    an incoherent position where one cannot meaningfully consider a reality
    devoid of these structures because such a consideration relies on the very cognitive faculties that Kant claims impose those structures. Thus, this misunderstanding undermines the objective status of knowledge and reality.

    In The Bounds of Sense, P. F. Strawson suggests a reading of Kant's first Critique that, once accepted, forces rejection of most of the original arguments, including transcendental idealism. Strawson contends that, had
    Kant followed out the implications of all that he said, he would have seen
    that there were many self-contradictions implicit in the whole.[12]: 403 

    Strawson views the analytic argument of the transcendental deduction as
    the most valuable idea in the text, and regards transcendental idealism as
    an unavoidable error in Kant's greatly productive system. In Strawson's traditional reading (also favored in the work of Paul Guyer and Rae
    Langton), the Kantian term phenomena (literally, things that can be
    seen—from Greek: phainomenon, "observable") refers to the world of appearances, or the world of "things" sensed.[13]: 99–101  They are tagged
    as "phenomena" to remind the reader that humans confuse these derivative appearances with whatever may be the forever unavailable "things in
    themselves" behind our perceptions. The necessary preconditions of
    experience, the components that humans bring to their apprehending of the world, the forms of perception such as space and time, are what make a
    priori judgments possible, but all of this process of comprehending what
    lies fundamental to human experience fails to bring anyone beyond the
    inherent limits of human sensibility. Kant's system requires the existence
    of noumena to prevent a rejection of external reality altogether, and it
    is this concept (senseless objects of which we can have no real
    understanding) to which Strawson objects in his book.

    The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science of the Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.

    The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths and Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to Materialism and Laws of Nature.

    A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe?
    It is very interesting!

    "Maps of consciousness" as Ralph Metzner put it.



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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 18:17:18 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 13:15:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 10:40, D wrote:
    It is a nice feeling that I was able to give them a good start with
    their IT careers.

    My company was never able to pay the people what they were worth, but
    yes, I have great hopes that some of the people we employed went on to
    better [paid] things, with my small help

    Sometimes there is a u-turn. One programmer went on to a well paid
    position in Seattle. All was well until the dotcom fiasco caused the
    company to restructure. That's when he returned.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 14 18:43:22 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:02:23 +0100, D wrote:

    I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl
    Jaspers,
    but haven't gotten around to it yet.

    Another golden oldie. Existentialism was the cool thing in my youth and
    Jaspers was often thrown into that bag along with Buber, Tillich, Sartre,
    Camus and the rest of the usual suspects. Most of it either went over my
    head or under my feet, I'm not sure which. The offshoots like the theater
    of the absurd were absurd. Sitting through 'The Bald Soprano' was a once
    in a lifetime experience, I hope.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 19:15:45 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 12:08, D wrote:
    s that really so important in the tech-sector? When I was young I'd meet
    many people in IT with very diverse backgrounds. But maybe it has become
    worse the past decade? =(

    I ended work as a programmer because all the new kids on the block wanted someone who spoke the same compSci gobbledygook as they did:
    'must have experience of Blatweiler's functional decomposition techniques' and 'be fluent in the formal prototyping language Z'.

    Which was immediately understood that a compSci had got given a project, had tried to use some thing he had learnt at Uni, fucked it up completely and needed someone to get him out of a self inflicted disaster.

    Not tell him to throw that shit down the toilet and learn how to run a software project.

    It is interesting how different people solve problems. In school, there
    were many people who were way smarter than I am when it came to the
    theoretical bits.

    What was interesting though, was that many of those guys sucked at the practical stuff, like actual programming assignments.

    So I would help them with the practical bits, and they would help me with
    the theoretical bits.

    So for me, solving problems, was more of an iterative approach or
    "learning by doing". I might see that something didn't work, try
    something, it worked better, and slowly but surely I would approach the
    goal of solving the problem.

    The theoretical guys would sit and theorize but were not always the best
    at then actually putting that into practice.

    But in the end, I discovered that I did not have the mentality to become a programmer. My problem was that I could never leave a problem and take a
    break. It would consume me. So that's all well and fine for small
    problems, but when I thought about being involved in a huge project, I
    always thought that with that mentality of never being able to let
    problems go, it would be a good way to burn out eventually.

    So system administration was a nice combination of challenges and smaller projects that usually were not multi-year programing marathons. ;)

    And then I discovered technical sales!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 18:28:55 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:13:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I always drive home and don't tell them

    In theory someone has to come to the desk to pick you up before you're released. I played by the rules and a friend came to get me. He drove me a block to where I'd left my car.

    I used Uber for the macular hole repair. The protocol requires you to
    spend three days face down. I'd had it done to the other eye previously
    and decided spending time at a motel in town was better. I could walk
    around on the footpaths, albeit staring at my toes rather than the
    scenery, and have access to several fast food places. It worked well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 14 19:57:46 2024
    On 14/12/2024 18:40, D wrote:


    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:


    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:

    Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first
    book out
    of 12!  My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and >>>>> the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very,
    very
    uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until >>>>> the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.

    I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
    petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
    natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in
    thought.


    Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!

    Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it
    clearly separates the term, from the reality it describes.

    Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.

    The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in
    that he regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.

    As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid
    model in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not
    - was to be distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....

    What is your opinion on the transcendental error?

    The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is
    what has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s tendency to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of
    reality itself.

    I never thought that at all. He was in fact completely distinct in his
    thinking between 'the world in itself' and 'the world of our
    perceptions., as being utterly different - though related.

    Many materialist simply cannot understand it - to them the world is what
    they think it is and see it as, and therefore Kant is simply nonsense.

    According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant
    correctly seeks to explore what we can understand about our experiences,
    he mistakenly concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive faculties on a reality that could be structured differently.

    That is exactly right, and to my certain knowledge it can be: Because
    Strawson cant do it doesn't mean it cant be done.


    This leads
    to an incoherent position where one cannot meaningfully consider a
    reality devoid of these structures because such a consideration relies
    on the very cognitive faculties that Kant claims impose those
    structures. Thus, this misunderstanding undermines the objective status
    of knowledge and reality.

    Of course., That is the whole point. The knowledge and reality we have
    is entirely relative to or world view - the end results of the
    *reification* of 'whatever the fuck the external world really is' by the
    mind into a world view that encompasses the very nature of way we
    consider to be real.

    Strawson seems to be a Beleiver. He wants there to be a simple objective
    reality that we can grasp. Kant says 'its there, but we cannot grasp
    it: It has to go through our processes of categorisation before it is intelligible to us'.



    In The Bounds of Sense, P. F. Strawson suggests a reading of Kant's
    first Critique that, once accepted, forces rejection of most of the
    original arguments, including transcendental idealism. Strawson contends that, had Kant followed out the implications of all that he said, he
    would have seen that there were many self-contradictions implicit in the whole.[12]: 403 

    Well strawspn seems to be a bit of a dick. We remember Kant and
    Schopenhaer, not Strawson.
    Schopenhauer corrected Kant a bit, which was good. Chiefly he saw the implication of 'the world in itself' more clearly and pointed out that
    'things in themselves' was in fact wrong, because the idea of plurality
    and division was again something that happened in the mind, not
    necessarily in the world.



    Strawson views the analytic argument of the transcendental deduction as
    the most valuable idea in the text, and regards transcendental idealism
    as an unavoidable error in Kant's greatly productive system.

    Not sure what transcendental deduction was. Oh. The argument that says transcendental idealism is in fact what we really do.

    I get the feeling Strawson isn't the brightest bulb in the box. To me
    one follows inevitably from the other. They are aspects of the same view.

    In
    Strawson's traditional reading (also favored in the work of Paul Guyer
    and Rae Langton), the Kantian term phenomena (literally, things that can
    be seen—from Greek: phainomenon, "observable") refers to the world of appearances, or the world of "things" sensed.[13]: 99–101  They are tagged as "phenomena" to remind the reader that humans confuse these derivative appearances with whatever may be the forever unavailable
    "things in themselves" behind our perceptions.

    Exactly so, Or, post Schopenhauer, the 'thing in itself' - experience of something utterly beyond comprehension that we chunk into things and
    events in space time linked by causality. And out of that process pops
    the world of phenomena - the 'material world' as I use the term, as an emergent property of the process itself.

    That is, the real data is elsewhere - we create structures that point to
    it and call that the real world.


    The necessary
    preconditions of experience, the components that humans bring to their apprehending of the world, the forms of perception such as space and
    time, are what make a priori judgments possible, but all of this process
    of comprehending what lies fundamental to human experience fails to
    bring anyone beyond the inherent limits of human sensibility.

    Sounds right to me. To go further you need special techniques, to
    glimpse the world and indeed consciousness from a special place. Then it becomes clear.
    If you cant conceive of or arrive at that space or place, then it's all nonsense.
    I suspect Strawson simply can't.


    Kant's
    system requires the existence of noumena to prevent a rejection of
    external reality altogether, and it is this concept (senseless objects
    of which we can have no real understanding) to which Strawson objects in
    his book.

    Well there ya go. If you are creating a real metaphysical system you end
    up with awkward bits that many people don't like.

    Strawson presumably didn't like quantum physics either :-)

    I shuffled this all around in my head and came to various conclusions
    and people said 'you sound like Schopenhauer' and a friend who is a
    philosophy professor threw Kant at me and he was right. I had arrived in
    the same ballpark as Kant. And more so Schopenhauer, at least in the
    context of the best model of what 'external reality' was.

    But I disagreed with both of them on the moral and life choice
    conclusions they drew, as far as I can remember.

    The 'problem' of transcendental idealism is it must needs introduce an
    element that is anathema to materialist and realist alike , and that is
    the necessary postulating of an independent entity that takes 'whatever
    is the case' - the 'world-in-itself' - the 'noumenal world' and turns
    it into [maps it, performs a 'transform' on it] the 'phenomenal world'
    that everybody casually takes as 'real'.

    And that entity is the person's mind, consciousness, or soul etc etc.
    In fact the material world ,as we commonly understand it, moves around
    in the TI model to become the emergent cross-product of the
    world-in-itself *as interpreted by*' the 'consciousness'* .. which has
    to be independent or you get recursive paradoxes. You can't have the
    mind creating a material reality which has the mind as an emergent
    property of that material reality, It's unstable! Worse, it is
    dangerously insane and people who cant break out of that can go insane. Cognitive dissonance protects us from having that thought.


    Dyed in the wool materialists don't want consciousness and choice to be independent. They have already decided to make them emergent properties
    of *matter*, and so they think Kant is a cunt, trying possibly to
    reintroduce the supernatural by the back door.

    My own thought is that right or wrong, the answers that that model
    gives, solve a huge amount of subjectivity in the human experience.



    The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish
    mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science
    of the Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.

    The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a
    fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths
    and Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to
    Materialism and Laws of Nature.

    A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe?
    It is very interesting!

    I spent many years looking at religions, magical systems, cults and so
    on. And the paranormal and unexplained 'weird shit'. It is even more
    peppered with total bullshit than philosophy, but it does give a clue as
    to how weird some peoples minds are.

    And now and again I glimpsed something that might have made sense, if it
    hadn't been reported by complete idiots who couldn't think clearly.

    Some one said once I should invent a new religion. I did a test. I
    invented the Church of the Yo-yo. Believe in the Yo-yo and be saved. I
    had a great little electric yo-yo . Mesmerising. Some twit from the
    'children of God' even believed me.

    I stopped there. I don't lust for power over peoples minds, and their
    purses.

    Funnily enough, I was very familiar with UFO cults and the like and the
    'men in black meme' and when the film came out I was super amused when
    one of my employees insisted in explaining what 'men in black' were.

    I didn't think admitting I probably knew ten times more than they did
    was consistent with running an orderly business.


    --
    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
    always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

    Margaret Thatcher

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 14 19:59:49 2024
    On 14/12/2024 18:43, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:02:23 +0100, D wrote:

    I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl
    Jaspers,
    but haven't gotten around to it yet.

    Another golden oldie. Existentialism was the cool thing in my youth and Jaspers was often thrown into that bag along with Buber, Tillich, Sartre, Camus and the rest of the usual suspects.

    Oh. Complete cunts the lot of them. Should have been hanged at birth.

    They all started from assumptions they didn't even know they had as far
    as I can remember,

    Most of it either went over my
    head or under my feet, I'm not sure which. The offshoots like the theater
    of the absurd were absurd. Sitting through 'The Bald Soprano' was a once
    in a lifetime experience, I hope.

    ArtStudents™ all...


    --
    "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
    let them."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Dec 14 23:01:58 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 18:02, D wrote:


    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 14/12/2024 10:54, D wrote:


    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer

    I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that one. >>>>> In
    general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
    directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.

    For me, to exagerate a bit, anglo-american seems more technical and dry, >>>> while continentals (incontinentals) seem more like poetry, or chicken
    soup for the soul.

    Yes. . To the extent that you have the Kierkegaard...couldn't get beyond >>> chapter one...

    I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl Jaspers,
    but haven't gotten around to it yet.

    I am not sure it was worth buying the book frankly.

    That's the advantage with a lot of philosophy, it's old enough to have no copyright. ;)

    Enormous quantities of philosophy can safely be ignored by most people and a fair chunk by everybody.

    Ahh... but I do have an academic degree in philosophy, so I'm naturally interested in it. =)

    An awful lot is trying to keep Christianity alive against the onslaught of rational materialism.

    This is a very fascinating area for me. Where spirituality crashes into
    the scientific worldview. William James tried to solve the equation á la pragmatism. It's one possible answer in my opinion, although I don't quite
    see how it would avoid impostor syndrome in some people (like me). ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Dec 14 23:05:48 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:02:23 +0100, D wrote:

    I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl
    Jaspers,
    but haven't gotten around to it yet.

    Another golden oldie. Existentialism was the cool thing in my youth and Jaspers was often thrown into that bag along with Buber, Tillich, Sartre, Camus and the rest of the usual suspects. Most of it either went over my

    Well, at least philosophy was the cool thing in your youth. In my youth it
    was completely gone. ;)

    Sartre and the french are completely incomprehensible to me, and just word-diarrhea if you ask me. So I always found existentialists not very impressive. Then I found Jaspers and he did have some interesting
    thoughts. A lot of it does read more like inspirational poetry, but there
    are some things there that I appreciate. So I usually find philosophers by looking at who they were inspired by. So in Jaspers there's some
    Nietzsche, and some Kierkegaard, and since I like Nietzsche, I figured the
    dane might be next on the list. Alternatively, move up a generation and
    see how is/was inspired by Jaspers.


    head or under my feet, I'm not sure which. The offshoots like the theater
    of the absurd were absurd. Sitting through 'The Bald Soprano' was a once
    in a lifetime experience, I hope.


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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 15 01:04:55 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:05:48 +0100, D wrote:

    Alternatively, move up a generation and
    see how is/was inspired by Jaspers.

    Jaspers was sort of a dead end and his work on psychopathology may have
    had more of an impact than his philosophy. He was Arendt's thesis advisor
    and did have some influence on her.

    Postwar German philosophy was a food fight with a lot of personalities involved. The Frankfurt School captured a lot of attention.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 15 00:33:15 2024
    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:59:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    ArtStudents™ all...

    Definitely. Keeping with the times the oldest technological institute in
    the US was trying to reinvent itself as a university and wanted to broaden
    the horizons of STEM philistines so they would bring speakers and
    performances on campus.

    Long after I graduated they completely jumped the shark.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    Experimental_Media_and_Performing_Arts_Center

    That would be fine but their rating slipped from the top 3 to somewhere in
    the middle of the pack. They're putting a lot of emphasis on a degree
    program in video gaming and hope to revitalize the local economy with
    gaming companies.

    I'm not much of a gamer but I do realize the industry rakes in money like
    porn sites so maybe they're on to something. At least the DEI president
    who was once the highest paid private school president is gone. They
    didn't get their money's worth. She checked off the black and female boxes
    but afaik she wasn't a lesbian.

    Alumni association emails go directly to the junk folder.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 15 11:25:35 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:59:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    ArtStudents™ all...

    Definitely. Keeping with the times the oldest technological institute in
    the US was trying to reinvent itself as a university and wanted to broaden the horizons of STEM philistines so they would bring speakers and performances on campus.

    Long after I graduated they completely jumped the shark.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    Experimental_Media_and_Performing_Arts_Center

    That would be fine but their rating slipped from the top 3 to somewhere in the middle of the pack. They're putting a lot of emphasis on a degree
    program in video gaming and hope to revitalize the local economy with
    gaming companies.

    I'm not much of a gamer but I do realize the industry rakes in money like porn sites so maybe they're on to something. At least the DEI president
    who was once the highest paid private school president is gone. They
    didn't get their money's worth. She checked off the black and female boxes but afaik she wasn't a lesbian.

    Alumni association emails go directly to the junk folder.

    My old alma mater kicked out a student for being anti-immigration. His
    crime was to discuss it with a classmate and supporting it with facts.

    I think there was a small uprising and he was allowed back eventually. But there was never any apology.

    To add insult to injury, they closed down the alumni email addresses,
    because they thought it was too expensive (they are a microsoft exchange customer, and probably have moved the students to "ze cloud" and were
    fearing a huge price increase if they had to move the old alumni exchange people to the cloud.

    Needless to say, no alumni mails even reach me any longer. ;)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Dec 15 11:27:05 2024
    On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:05:48 +0100, D wrote:

    Alternatively, move up a generation and
    see how is/was inspired by Jaspers.

    Jaspers was sort of a dead end and his work on psychopathology may have
    had more of an impact than his philosophy. He was Arendt's thesis advisor
    and did have some influence on her.

    Postwar German philosophy was a food fight with a lot of personalities involved. The Frankfurt School captured a lot of attention.


    Oh, that's sad. Nothing more to add to his conversation then. =/

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 15 12:11:53 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    What is your opinion on the transcendental error?

    The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is what >> has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s tendency
    to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of reality
    itself.

    I never thought that at all. He was in fact completely distinct in his thinking between 'the world in itself' and 'the world of our perceptions., as being utterly different - though related.

    Many materialist simply cannot understand it - to them the world is what they think it is and see it as, and therefore Kant is simply nonsense.

    Yes, I think we've established that this is why we keep talking past each
    other on this subject. Were you at one point in the materialist camp, and
    then you reached enlightenment, or did you always feel that the
    materialist camp was unsatisfactory, and after Kant everything sort of
    clicked into place for you?

    According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly seeks to
    explore what we can understand about our experiences, he mistakenly
    concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive faculties on a
    reality that could be structured differently.

    That is exactly right, and to my certain knowledge it can be: Because Strawson cant do it doesn't mean it cant be done.

    This is true. I was curious about what you would say about Strawsons
    argument.

    Strawson seems to be a Beleiver. He wants there to be a simple objective reality that we can grasp. Kant says 'its there, but we cannot grasp it: It has to go through our processes of categorisation before it is intelligible to us'.

    I think the point is that, if we can never grasp it, we can never say it
    is or anything about it, and I think that is why he argues it collapses
    into idealism, or potentially, solipsism.

    Kant's system requires the existence of noumena to prevent a rejection of
    external reality altogether, and it is this concept (senseless objects of
    which we can have no real understanding) to which Strawson objects in his
    book.

    Well there ya go. If you are creating a real metaphysical system you end up with awkward bits that many people don't like.

    Strawson presumably didn't like quantum physics either :-)

    This is another very interesting topic. Which interpretation is true, is anyone of them true? Or should we adopt the stance and "shut up and calculate"?

    I shuffled this all around in my head and came to various conclusions and people said 'you sound like Schopenhauer' and a friend who is a philosophy professor threw Kant at me and he was right. I had arrived in the same ballpark as Kant. And more so Schopenhauer, at least in the context of the best model of what 'external reality' was.

    But I disagreed with both of them on the moral and life choice conclusions they drew, as far as I can remember.

    The 'problem' of transcendental idealism is it must needs introduce an element that is anathema to materialist and realist alike , and that is the necessary postulating of an independent entity that takes 'whatever is the case' - the 'world-in-itself' - the 'noumenal world' and turns it into [maps it, performs a 'transform' on it] the 'phenomenal world' that everybody casually takes as 'real'.

    I think this is the fundamental disagreement and what Strawson feels is the fundamental error that collapses it into idealism.

    Dyed in the wool materialists don't want consciousness and choice to be independent. They have already decided to make them emergent properties of *matter*, and so they think Kant is a cunt, trying possibly to reintroduce the supernatural by the back door.

    This makes a lot of sense to me.

    My own thought is that right or wrong, the answers that that model gives, solve a huge amount of subjectivity in the human experience.

    Each answer has its own pros and cons. Since it's philosophy, there is always the risk that the conversation will still be going on in a 1000 years. ;)

    Thank you for your comments and explanation. I think I understand you better now, and where the key-disagreement is.

    A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe? It >> is very interesting!

    I spent many years looking at religions, magical systems, cults and so on. And the paranormal and unexplained 'weird shit'. It is even more peppered with total bullshit than philosophy, but it does give a clue as to how weird some peoples minds are.

    This is the truth! It seems to me that "magic" has collapsed into pop-psychology
    in our current day and age. I am very interested in the subject, from that angle. I think magic dovetails nicely with the philosophy of Feyerabend and perhaps you can add a pinch of pragmatism as well. At least that seems to be the
    justification I get when talking to "occultists" and wiccans.

    And now and again I glimpsed something that might have made sense, if it hadn't been reported by complete idiots who couldn't think clearly.

    Some one said once I should invent a new religion. I did a test. I invented the Church of the Yo-yo. Believe in the Yo-yo and be saved. I had a great little electric yo-yo . Mesmerising. Some twit from the 'children of God' even believed me.

    I stopped there. I don't lust for power over peoples minds, and their purses.

    Funnily enough, I was very familiar with UFO cults and the like and the 'men in black meme' and when the film came out I was super amused when one of my employees insisted in explaining what 'men in black' were.

    I didn't think admitting I probably knew ten times more than they did was consistent with running an orderly business.

    Maybe you stopped too soon? If not, you would have had a nice old age, with many
    young women to support you! ;)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to He wants to know 'what's really the on Sun Dec 15 12:37:36 2024
    On 15/12/2024 11:11, D wrote:


    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Many materialist simply cannot understand it - to them the world is
    what they think it is and see it as, and therefore Kant is simply
    nonsense.

    Yes, I think we've established that this is why we keep talking past
    each other on this subject. Were you at one point in the materialist
    camp, and then you reached enlightenment, or did you always feel that
    the materialist camp was unsatisfactory, and after Kant everything sort
    of clicked into place for you?


    I was firmly in the materialist camp. Id been taught science and that
    was the way I understood the world.

    Having to reluctantly dump that model in the face of the evidence was
    very hard.

    According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly seeks
    to explore what we can understand about our experiences, he
    mistakenly concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive
    faculties on a reality that could be structured differently.

    That is exactly right, and to my certain knowledge it can be: Because
    Strawson cant do it doesn't mean it cant be done.

    This is true. I was curious about what you would say about Strawsons argument.

    Id never seen it before, but it was very comprehensible once I looked up
    the meaning of some of t he terms he is using.
    He4 sort of buys part of the argument but rejects the conclusions mainly
    on the grounds as far as I can tell that it doesn't get him where he
    wants to go.

    Which seems to me to be the certainty of the materialist's credo.

    He wants to know 'what's really there' and Kant says 'we cant ever know
    that'


    Strawson seems to be a Beleiver. He wants there to be a simple
    objective reality that we can grasp. Kant says 'its there, but we
    cannot grasp it: It has to go through our processes of categorisation
    before it is intelligible to us'.

    I think the point is that, if we can never grasp it, we can never say it
    is or anything about it, and I think that is why he argues it collapses
    into idealism, or potentially, solipsism.

    That is his mistake. He is unable to grasps the difference between 'realism-materialness, Idealism and Transcendental Idealism, which is a
    hybrid

    To put it it a bastardised mathematical notation materialism is:

    P,C=f(R) - what we Perceive is ONLY a function of what's really there.
    Ans so is consciousness.

    Whereas Idealism is :

    P,R=f(C) - What we Perceive as Reality is simply an emergent property
    of Consciousness or Mind.

    Transcendental Idealism rearranges the equation so that

    P=f(C,R) - What we perceive is a function of what's 'really there' there
    AND of the means by which we transform it into a reality we can deal with.

    He (Strawson) doesn't appreciate that while the set of possible Rs is infinite, so is the set of impossible Rs.

    And in the end it is not the business of humanity to attempt to
    comprehend something that is completely beyond them. Our job is to map
    it into something we *can* understand.

    "Me Tarzan, you Jane. Banana tree that way==>"

    Once you appreciate that everyday reality is a *transform* or a *map* of 'what's really there' you cannot cling to a single value of 'the Truth',
    That is the purpose of Enlightenment, to make the point that reality
    as we experience it is not what's really there, but a transform of it -
    a map of it into co-ordinates that we fined easy to handle. Space time
    matter etc.

    And furthermore, that we have a choice as to how we interpret it.

    Which is what science is really doing.


    Kant's system requires the existence of noumena to prevent a
    rejection of external reality altogether, and it is this concept
    (senseless objects of which we can have no real understanding) to
    which Strawson objects in his book.

    Well there ya go. If you are creating a real metaphysical system you
    end up with awkward bits that many people don't like.

    Strawson presumably didn't like quantum physics either :-)

    This is another very interesting topic. Which interpretation is true, is anyone
    of them true? Or should we adopt the stance and "shut up and calculate"?


    Ah. I think my understanding of Enlightenment and metaphysics is that
    none of them are true. They are all models, Some better, some worse.

    You move through a mental model of what you *think* is there, never encountering directly what *is* there. Or at least that is a meta-model
    of metaphysics itself that works.
    That is, we have genuine choices in what metaphysics we adopt.
    Although we don't know that, and its very hard to change.

    Realist/materialists - I never know wh9ch term is the best - are looking
    for a model which covers all cases.

    But as Korzybski says "The map, is not the territory"

    Some people don't care about the terrain, they just want a map that
    shows the bars. And the roads connecting them

    To them the terrain simply does not exist. They only see the bars, and
    the roads.

    her people want maps showing the mountains. They climb up and say 'look,
    the world is not only roads leading to bars' but the others say 'who
    cares?' 'not on my map'

    ...

    The 'problem' of transcendental idealism is it must needs introduce an
    element that is anathema to materialist and realist alike , and that
    is the necessary postulating of  an independent entity that takes
    'whatever is the case' - the 'world-in-itself'  - the 'noumenal world'
    and turns it into [maps it, performs a 'transform' on it]  the
    'phenomenal world' that everybody casually takes as 'real'.

    I think this is the fundamental disagreement and what Strawson feels is the fundamental error that collapses it into idealism.

    I dunno.
    Strawson is like Penrose. He starts off examining things like
    consciousness, and then collapses back into his old materialist world
    view that matter is real, consciousness is an emergent property of it
    and thereby fails to come to a satisfactory conclusion.

    Dyed in the wool materialists don't want consciousness and choice to
    be independent. They have already decided to make them emergent
    properties of *matter*, and so they think Kant is a cunt, trying
    possibly to reintroduce the supernatural by the back door.

    This makes a lot of sense to me.

    I had to be dragged kicking and screaming to that point of view too.

    My own thought is that right or wrong, the  answers that that model
    gives, solve a huge amount of subjectivity in the human experience.

    Each answer has its own pros and cons. Since it's philosophy, there is
    always the risk that the conversation will still be going on in a 1000
    years. ;)

    My understanding is that TI is like realism and idealism simply another
    model.
    An imperfect attempt to draw a more detailed map.

    HOWEVER it does rearrange a lot of quantum physics into an entirely new framework


    Thank you for your comments and explanation. I think I understand you
    better
    now, and where the key-disagreement is.


    Ultimately there is no real disagreement, in that in your world view you
    places things in a certain pattern. The transcendental deduction
    invalidates that pattern perhaps, but you - and Strawson do not want to
    take the leap to the logical conclusion because it is profoundly
    uncomfortable and deeply humiliating.

    As a species, we don't know jack shit about anything.
    We stumble by on half truths, and the only Truth is the enlightenment of knowing that to be the case.

    We discover we have metaphysical choices that are life changing.,
    Religious conversion perhaps - but we have no idea why we ought to make
    those choices.

    And sometime, we prefer to stay exactly where we were. Chopping wood,
    fetching water.

    A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science
    maybe? It is very interesting!

    I spent many years looking at religions, magical systems, cults and so
    on. And the paranormal and unexplained 'weird shit'. It is even more
    peppered with total bullshit than philosophy, but it does give a clue
    as to how  weird some peoples minds are.

    This is the truth! It seems to me that "magic" has collapsed into pop-psychology

    It always was.

    Yesterdays black magicians are today's politicians, marketing
    executives and creatives. Weaving spells to enslave you, take your
    money, and control your behaviour.
    E.g. Critical race theory is a *spell*. It modifies the individuals
    metaphysics so that all they can see is race and conflict, and all they
    think they ought to feel is rage.

    Disgusting piece of applied metaphysics.

    It is all about modifying the worldview of individuals.

    As I said, there are an infinite number of possible worldviews that more
    or less fit the facts, and the basis of e.g. AgitProp is to convince the individual to select one over another.

    What Terry Pratchett called 'headology'

    Back in the day everyone stuck a God in their worldview, and provided he
    was teaching humility, it all worked. Beware of gods who teach pride, superiority and conflict. Nazism, Islam. Nasty shit.




    in our current day and age. I am very interested in the subject, from that angle. I think magic dovetails nicely with the philosophy of Feyerabend and perhaps you can add a pinch of pragmatism as well.

    I rejected Feyerabend. He missed the point, and I think he was another
    person trying to make philosophy fit his predilections. He has a
    chequered past too. Far too much politics in it.


    At least that seems to be the justification I get when talking to "occultists" and wiccans.


    I gave up on them both., They didn't understand what they were doing.

    I remember popping into a little bookshop in my local town and meeting a
    girl who used to run an occult bookshop in London. I said hi and she
    said 'who sent you?'

    Nothing would convince her that it was pure happenstance because that is
    where I lived. Apparently there was a psychic war that started after I
    lost touch with that lot.

    To believe in other people's occult power over you is a corollary of
    believing that you have power over them. Shit way to live frankly. The
    shop was closed next time I passed. She ran.

    I mean look at Putin. Classic psychopath in a society ruled by fellow psychopaths. Black magician first class. Summa cum laude. What we in
    Britain call a total cunt, referencing the power of the vagina to cloud
    men's judgement...

    He wins, or he loses, because his life is and always has been one long
    battle for supremacy and recognition. His god is power, and his
    worldview is nothing but a giant chessboard of pawns, and the game of power.

    I wouldn't want to be him. Either he gets Ukraine or Ukraine or his own
    fellow pyschopaths get him. He has disallowed any alternatives. Battle
    and sudden death is all he has.

    He needs to be put down like a rabid dog.


    Do you see how people have huge subjective elements to their worldviews,
    and they are fluid, and can be changed by people with strong personalities?

    And the most vulnerable are those who think they are smart. They can be
    baited with poisoned ideas.

    The proletariat simply says 'your shitting me, fuck off' I have a lot of respect for the proles.

    Nietzsche says 'be strong' I say 'fuck that, I want some peace'. I will
    be more or less invisible instead. :-)

    But realism doesn't allow for this subjectivity. A realist believes in
    the truth of his ideas. That is supremely dangerous.

    The idealist magician believes his ideas form other peoples reality.
    Equally dangerous.


    Funnily enough, I was very familiar with UFO cults and the like and
    the 'men in black meme' and when the film came out I was  super amused
    when one of my employees insisted in explaining what 'men in black' were.

    I didn't think admitting I probably knew ten times more than they did
    was consistent with running an orderly business.

    Maybe you stopped too soon? If not, you would have had a nice old age,
    with many
    young women to support you! ;)

    Christ! One was bad enough. No support whatsoever. The only thing I
    agree with Nietzsche on is that 'all women's problems are solved by
    pregnancy'

    The Zulu says 'women are strange cattle'

    They are dominated by hormones - more so than even men are. And they can sublimate them but never eliminate them.

    The current pretence is that we are all free and enlightened, but no, we
    are not.
    We are, just underneath, animals trying to mate, in a blind sort of urge.

    And no amount of lipstick turns that pig into an angel

    The best people are those who accept that as a truth and do not go into
    denial.

    --
    If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
    ..I'd spend it on drink.

    Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Dec 15 19:28:53 2024
    On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 15/12/2024 11:11, D wrote:


    On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Many materialist simply cannot understand it - to them the world is what >>> they think it is and see it as, and therefore Kant is simply nonsense.

    Yes, I think we've established that this is why we keep talking past each
    other on this subject. Were you at one point in the materialist camp, and
    then you reached enlightenment, or did you always feel that the materialist >> camp was unsatisfactory, and after Kant everything sort of clicked into
    place for you?


    I was firmly in the materialist camp. Id been taught science and that was the way I understood the world.

    Having to reluctantly dump that model in the face of the evidence was very hard.

    What made you have to dump it?

    According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly seeks to >>>> explore what we can understand about our experiences, he mistakenly
    concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive faculties on a >>>> reality that could be structured differently.

    That is exactly right, and to my certain knowledge it can be: Because
    Strawson cant do it doesn't mean it cant be done.

    This is true. I was curious about what you would say about Strawsons
    argument.

    Id never seen it before, but it was very comprehensible once I looked up the meaning of some of t he terms he is using.
    He4 sort of buys part of the argument but rejects the conclusions mainly on the grounds as far as I can tell that it doesn't get him where he wants to go.

    Which seems to me to be the certainty of the materialist's credo.

    He wants to know 'what's really there' and Kant says 'we cant ever know that'

    I find myself in the position where I am a materialist, but, due to the finitude
    of our brains, the speed of light, and other contraints, I find it unlikely that
    we'll ever be able to know everything.

    Since I'm also instrumentalist leaning, and a fan of empiricism, I fully admit (and believe) that we can only infer what's inside a black hole, or what various
    interpretations of quantum physics might or might not lead to, but we'll never know for sure.

    That, does however not exclude (for me) that we live in a material universe. I think our limitations are due to the fact that we are material beings, living in
    a material universe, and accepting those limitations are perfectly fine with me.

    Strawson seems to be a Beleiver. He wants there to be a simple objective >>> reality that we can grasp. Kant says 'its there, but we cannot grasp it: >>> It has to go through our processes of categorisation before it is
    intelligible to us'.

    I think the point is that, if we can never grasp it, we can never say it is >> or anything about it, and I think that is why he argues it collapses into
    idealism, or potentially, solipsism.

    That is his mistake. He is unable to grasps the difference between 'realism-materialness, Idealism and Transcendental Idealism, which is a hybrid

    To put it it a bastardised mathematical notation materialism is:

    P,C=f(R) - what we Perceive is ONLY a function of what's really there. Ans so is consciousness.

    Whereas Idealism is :

    P,R=f(C) - What we Perceive as Reality is simply an emergent property of Consciousness or Mind.

    I think we've been over this, and I do reside soundly on Strawsons side when it comes to the transcendent error.

    I don't want to be rude, but I feel as if we are just regurgitating, so I'll happily explore how come you "switched sides", and what prompted you to do it. But when it comes to the arguments, we are at an impasse.

    Thank you for your comments and explanation. I think I understand you better >> now, and where the key-disagreement is.


    Ultimately there is no real disagreement, in that in your world view you places things in a certain pattern. The transcendental deduction invalidates that pattern perhaps, but you - and Strawson do not want to take the leap to the logical conclusion because it is profoundly uncomfortable and deeply humiliating.

    This is about the nature of reality, so there can be no humiliation. As stated above, I think that Strawson does take TI to its logical conclusion which is idealism, which is a dead end. You disagree. I have not been able to persuade you, and you have not been able to persuade me.

    There has not been a "meeting of minds" and enlightenment! This is sad!

    As a species, we don't know jack shit about anything.

    I think this is a little bit dramatic, given the enormous progress of science, improvement in quality of life, and general happiness. This is in fact a strong proof of the materialist world view. ;)

    Jokes aside, I understand that this is not what you mean.

    We discover we have metaphysical choices that are life changing., Religious conversion perhaps - but we have no idea why we ought to make those choices.

    Happiness? Can there be anything else? I place meaning as something that contributes to my happiness, and not happiness as a byproduct of meaning.

    This is the truth! It seems to me that "magic" has collapsed into
    pop-psychology

    It always was.

    Yesterdays black magicians are today's politicians, marketing executives and creatives. Weaving spells to enslave you, take your money, and control your behaviour.

    I flipped through a book by Ramsey Dukes a week or two ago, and he makes the exact same point. Maybe you read it? Maybe you are him?

    At least that seems to be the justification I get when talking to
    "occultists" and wiccans.

    I gave up on them both., They didn't understand what they were doing.

    I think it is about hope, and them wanting there to be something more than the material world. A sort of spiritual longing, and consolation (magic) they cannot
    get in any other way.

    I remember popping into a little bookshop in my local town and meeting a girl who used to run an occult bookshop in London. I said hi and she said 'who sent you?'

    Reminds me of politicial zealots! Run!

    I mean look at Putin. Classic psychopath in a society ruled by fellow
    ...
    He needs to be put down like a rabid dog.

    This is the correct statement! I fear europe is repeating the same mistakes they
    did with Hitler. The sooner he can be taken out, the better. I am surprised that
    Ukraine has not started an assasination market and put a billion dollar in prize
    money on his head. Maybe that would motivate someone in his inner circle?

    Nietzsche says 'be strong' I say 'fuck that, I want some peace'. I will be more or less invisible instead. :-)

    Well, I think you exemplify what Nietzsche means with being strong. That does not exclude moving to nature and wanting some peace. ;)

    But realism doesn't allow for this subjectivity. A realist believes in the truth of his ideas. That is supremely dangerous.

    Of course it does! A realist must be clear about what can be known and what cannot be known. What is objective, and what is subjective. I find it an excellent tool for dividing up what can be known from what cannot be known, and that brings clarity.

    The idealist magician believes his ideas form other peoples reality.
    Equally dangerous.

    This is called mental illness. ;)

    Maybe you stopped too soon? If not, you would have had a nice old age, with >> many young women to support you! ;)

    Christ! One was bad enough. No support whatsoever. The only thing I agree with Nietzsche on is that 'all women's problems are solved by pregnancy'

    Did you ever have children?

    The Zulu says 'women are strange cattle'

    They are dominated by hormones - more so than even men are. And they can sublimate them but never eliminate them.

    This is the truth! I often explain why women do not make good leaders (on average) and it comes down to hormones, being more empathetic, being less psycho. Psycho men will gladly trample on others, and has no problem sacrificing
    the few for the many. Women, by their brain structures and hormones have a much harder time doing this. That means men have a natural advantage.

    Some women master this, but they are likelier to get burned out, since they are fighting against their biological setup.

    It is funny to watch the smoke coming out of militant feminists ears! =D

    The current pretence is that we are all free and enlightened, but no, we are not. We are, just underneath, animals trying to mate, in a blind sort of urge.

    Again I think it is more nuanced, but yes, there's plenty of animal left in man.
    I agree with that, and this animal can be ruthlessly exploited.

    And no amount of lipstick turns that pig into an angel

    The best people are those who accept that as a truth and do not go into denial.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bozo User@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Tue Jan 14 12:03:46 2025
    On 2024-11-21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 02:20:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 11/20/24 10:46 AM, Rich wrote:

    If JS or Perl are your yardstick for "never liked" you must never have
    attempted to write an AutoHotKey script to automate something on a
    windows machine.

    Tried a hotkey daemon once, DOS-era, but eventually bought one writ
    by better programmers. Automated Winders ... again a real pain in the
    ass.

    GUIs were never designed to be automated. Which is why trying to do so is fiddly, fragile and just plain unreliable.

    DOS was better at that.

    Command line, of course -- naturally better for automation purposes.
    Though the DOS one was a pitiful toy reimplementation of what was, and
    still is, available on *nix systems.
    BeOS and Haiku with the Hey command disagree.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)