["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.] Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
If Fortran can be a “junk language” by your definition, then so can any >> language.
It wasn't Fortran that changed, it was the CDC compiler.
If Fortran can be a ???junk language??? by your definition, then so can any language.
["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.] Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
If Fortran can be a ???junk language??? by your definition, then so can
any language.
It wasn't Fortran that changed, it was the CDC compiler.
I want to complement these joy posts by my feelings
about junk languages. My programming experience
includes a wide variety from machine language, assembly
language, Fortran, and C going back to the 60's.
I call Perl, Python, and Javascript junk languages:
because programs written in these are unstable. Some
modification in these can cause a perfectly functional
program to stop working because of some change that
was not backward compatible.
I ran into this problem way back in the 70's when I
was running Fortran programs on CDC machines. One
day my Fortran programs would no longer compile because
CDC had updated their compiler. I had no recourse
other than tracking down every "error" and programming
around that. Do that with a program that ran to
20 boxes of cards.
Although Perl supposedly had an automatic method
for updating my Perl programs, it didn't work
for me and I just abandoned all the stuff that
I had written up to that time.
I am now running into these same problems with
javascript programs using jsdom. Junk.
The entire language looks like three shit-faced drunk language
designers teamed up with three stoned off their gourd language
designers and agreed to create the script language, and each put in
their own alcohol or mary jane fueled idea of how the language should
be designed.
NEVER liked JS or Perl ... but that's just me.
Real-world, they seem to do their thing OK.
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500 "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do a
survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Almost always proto a new idea in Python now ...
and, if good, translate it into 'C' or even Pascal. My old fave
was/is Pascal - something 'poetic' about it.
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
... FreeBASIC is my go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life ...
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since
childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we
cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 21:47:38 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 08:10:39 -0800, John Ames wrote:
... FreeBASIC is my go-to for hacking together quick utility
applications in daily life ...
No REPL? Even Perl and Python can offer that. Even the old-style BASICs
had something like that (immediate mode).
Depends on the use case, but generally when I'm throwing together some one-off utility or proof-of-concept I know about what I'm trying to do
and how I intend to structure the thing ahead of time, just from
thinking about the problem.
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 21:05 this Wednesday (GMT):
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
I haven't
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:30:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 21:05 this Wednesday (GMT):
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
I haven't
You’re not missing anything.
By the way, I don’t think Perl has a REPL.
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 21:05 this Wednesday (GMT):
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ?
Should do a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
qualify it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC
is my go-to for hacking together quick utility applications in
daily life, but I haven't touched old-school line-number
spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built
any application of real complexity with it. Bet more than a few
people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to
a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one
of us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different
variants of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
I haven't
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:39:15 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vhlrv3$ahc9$3@dont-email.me>:
By the way, I don’t think Perl has a REPL.
https://metacpan.org/pod/Perl::Shell
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:39:15 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vhlrv3$ahc9$3@dont-email.me>:
By the way, I don’t think Perl has a REPL.
https://metacpan.org/pod/Perl::Shell
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
NEVER liked JS or Perl ... but that's just me.
Real-world, they seem to do their thing OK.
If JS or Perl are your yardstick for "never liked" you must never have attempted to write an AutoHotKey script to automate something on a
windows machine.
The entire language looks like three shit-faced drunk language
designers teamed up with three stoned off their gourd language
designers and agreed to create the script language, and each put in
their own alcohol or mary jane fueled idea of how the language should
be designed.
There's absolutely no consistency in anything in that language. One
thing one has to pass around are WID's (Window ID's) so that the target window which is to receive the "automation" is identified. Some
functions have prototypes like this (note, these are made up below):
getxy(wid, result)
Others have prototypes like this:
move_to_x_y(x, y, wid)
Others are this way
recolor-window(x, wid, y, color, result)
Still others use camel case
getSomethingFromWindows(result, a, b, wid, q)
Note now "wid" moves around in the prototype list, yet it is needed for nearly every call. Also note the underscore vs. hyphen vs camel case
names.
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since
childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we
cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
On 11/20/24 10:46 AM, Rich wrote:
If JS or Perl are your yardstick for "never liked" you must never have
attempted to write an AutoHotKey script to automate something on a
windows machine.
Tried a hotkey daemon once, DOS-era, but eventually bought one writ
by better programmers. Automated Winders ... again a real pain in the
ass.
DOS was better at that.
I take it you're also not a fan of Perl 🙂
On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do
a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since
childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we
cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw it,
apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of lack
of training than a linguistic feature?
On 11/20/24 10:46 AM, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
NEVER liked JS or Perl ... but that's just me.
Real-world, they seem to do their thing OK.
If JS or Perl are your yardstick for "never liked" you must never have
attempted to write an AutoHotKey script to automate something on a
windows machine.
Tried a hotkey daemon once, DOS-era, but eventually
bought one writ by better programmers. Automated
Winders ... again a real pain in the ass. DOS was
better at that.
The entire language looks like three shit-faced drunk language
designers teamed up with three stoned off their gourd language
designers and agreed to create the script language, and each put in
their own alcohol or mary jane fueled idea of how the language
should be designed.
There's absolutely no consistency in anything in that language. One
thing one has to pass around are WID's (Window ID's) so that the
target window which is to receive the "automation" is identified.
Some functions have prototypes like this (note, these are made up
below):
getxy(wid, result)
Others have prototypes like this:
move_to_x_y(x, y, wid)
Others are this way
recolor-window(x, wid, y, color, result)
Still others use camel case
getSomethingFromWindows(result, a, b, wid, q)
Note now "wid" moves around in the prototype list, yet it is needed for
nearly every call. Also note the underscore vs. hyphen vs camel case
names.
I take it you're also not a fan of Perl :-)
Hey, working with X stuff you also need to identify
screens sometimes ... and they're not always readily
identified - <something>:2:2
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw it,
apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of lack
of training than a linguistic feature?
On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do >>>>> a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify >>>> it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to >>>> for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I
haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since
childhood, and certainly never built any application of real complexity >>>> with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially if we >>>> cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of
us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants
of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of
lack of training than a linguistic feature?
I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
device where you had to enter several kinds of data
about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
entire record, only one prompt at a time.
Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
compact.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:09:29 +0000, Pancho wrote:
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw it,
apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of lack
of training than a linguistic feature?
I never understood the goto hate that Dijkstra had. It could be used to produce hideous code but has valid uses. I'm amused by the syntactic sugar used by many languages to conceal what is obviously a goto under the hood
amd of you dig far enough you get down to JMP, JNE, and similar opcodes.
The idea was not to
eliminate jumps but to impose a structure upon them. So much of good programming is imposing structure, imposing good practice rules to make
the code more understandable, more manageable.
On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do >>>>>> a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify >>>>> it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to >>>>> for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially
if we
cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of >>>> us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants >>>> of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of
lack of training than a linguistic feature?
I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
device where you had to enter several kinds of data
about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
entire record, only one prompt at a time.
Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
compact.
Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
than jumps.
Even today, Free Pascal supports GOTO ... but you LABEL the
destination point so you don't have to worry about changing line
numbers like with older versions of BASIC. FORTRAN did, some versions
still do, support I think two version of GO TO ... labeled and
'calculated'. Sometimes you just CAN'T cleanly structure what you
want - and GOTO is a secret way out of some deep deep if-then's and
while's and such.
On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I take it you're also not a fan of Perl 🙂
Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I take it you're also not a fan of Perl 🙂
Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language
I've heard it called:
"Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:31:11 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Even today, Free Pascal supports GOTO ... but you LABEL the
destination point so you don't have to worry about changing line
numbers like with older versions of BASIC. FORTRAN did, some versions
still do, support I think two version of GO TO ... labeled and
'calculated'. Sometimes you just CAN'T cleanly structure what you
want - and GOTO is a secret way out of some deep deep if-then's and
while's and such.
The computer goto was declared 'obsolescent' in F95 in favor of 'case' but afaik it still will compile.
Put enough lipstick on the pig and you wind up with a vtable.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 23:14:45 +0000, Pancho wrote:
The idea was not to
eliminate jumps but to impose a structure upon them. So much of good
programming is imposing structure, imposing good practice rules to make
the code more understandable, more manageable.
Also, when you have a lot of dynamic memory allocation going on, a
structured discipline helps reduce the chances of common errors like double-frees or memory leaks.
<https://gitlab.com/ldo/a_structured_discipline_of_programming/>
On 11/21/24 6:04 PM, Pancho wrote:
On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ?
Should do
a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my
go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially
if we
cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every
one of
us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different
variants
of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign
of lack of training than a linguistic feature?
I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
device where you had to enter several kinds of data
about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
entire record, only one prompt at a time.
Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
compact.
Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
than jumps.
In my app - and the people I wrote it for used it for
nearly a decade and could easily add/subtract bits - it
wasn't even a "table". The 'rungs on a ladder' was an
apt description.
GOSUBs and such are great, but in this case there
was less code/mem/cycles involved using the GOTOs
and the devices did NOT have much space for program.
Anyhow, that was my neatest use of GOTO. Nothing
really WRONG with such jumps, they're being done
in the background by other forking logic anyway,
it's just that if BADLY used you get unmaintainable
spaghetti code.
Even today, Free Pascal supports GOTO ... but you
LABEL the destination point so you don't have to
worry about changing line numbers like with older
versions of BASIC. FORTRAN did, some versions still
do, support I think two version of GO TO ... labeled
and 'calculated'. Sometimes you just CAN'T cleanly
structure what you want - and GOTO is a secret way
out of some deep deep if-then's and while's and such.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:09:29 +0000, Pancho wrote:
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw it,
apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of lack
of training than a linguistic feature?
I never understood the goto hate that Dijkstra had. It could be used to produce hideous code but has valid uses. I'm amused by the syntactic sugar used by many languages to conceal what is obviously a goto under the hood
amd of you dig far enough you get down to JMP, JNE, and similar opcodes.
On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do >>>>>> a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to qualify >>>>> it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my go-to >>>>> for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially
if we
cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one of >>>> us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants >>>> of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign of
lack of training than a linguistic feature?
I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
device where you had to enter several kinds of data
about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
entire record, only one prompt at a time.
Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
compact.
Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
than jumps.
On 21/11/2024 19:48, rbowman wrote:
I never understood the goto hate that Dijkstra had. It could be used
to produce hideous code but has valid uses. I'm amused by the
syntactic sugar used by many languages to conceal what is obviously a
goto under the hood amd of you dig far enough you get down to JMP,
JNE, and similar opcodes.
Yup.
The real hate was code that was hard to read and debug because flow
jumped about all over the place.
But you need to have conditional code execution and that means at some
level a goto, even if its implicit.
if(Bollocks)
{ // ELSE GOTO next '}'
blah();
}
The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup
code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s
going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
reader sees.
For selective, conditional and repeated execution there are generally
cleaner ways to write it, and use of gotos for these purposes is
generally a hint that the code needs some work. More recent languages
have other options (‘defer’, ‘finally’, destructors, etc).
--
On 21/11/2024 23:04, Pancho wrote:
On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:Case statements...
On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ? Should do >>>>>>> a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my
go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially
if we
cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every
one of
us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different variants >>>>> of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign
of lack of training than a linguistic feature?
I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
device where you had to enter several kinds of data
about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
entire record, only one prompt at a time.
Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
compact.
Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
than jumps.
On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup
code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s
going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
reader sees.
+1
GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)
Anyhow, that was my neatest use of GOTO. Nothing
really WRONG with such jumps, they're being done
in the background by other forking logic anyway,
it's just that if BADLY used you get unmaintainable
spaghetti code.
On 11/22/24 10:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/11/2024 23:04, Pancho wrote:In OO, switch/case statements were deprecated too :-) I can't remember exactly why. I think it was because we were supposed to use polymorphism instead.
On 11/21/24 15:45, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:Case statements...
On 11/21/24 3:09 AM, Pancho wrote:
On 11/20/24 21:05, Rich wrote:
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ?
Should do
a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
qualify
it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC is my >>>>>>> go-to
for hacking together quick utility applications in daily life, but I >>>>>>> haven't touched old-school line-number spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since >>>>>>> childhood, and certainly never built any application of real
complexity
with it. Bet more than a few people here have, though, especially >>>>>>> if we
cross-posted over to a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every
one of
us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different
variants
of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
For me: BBC Basic, VAX Basic, Visual Basic (&VBA).
GOTO was deprecated before BBC Basic circa 1981. I never really saw
it, apart from reasonable GOTO error usages. Wasn't it more a sign
of lack of training than a linguistic feature?
I found a good way to use GOTO however - in a handheld
device where you had to enter several kinds of data
about a location. The structure was a sort of "ladder"
and pressing buttons would take you up and down the
ladder via GOTOs. If you needed to edit yer last entry
you just jumped one step up. The handheld only had a
4-line display alas, so you couldn't show even one
entire record, only one prompt at a time.
Now each entry was only a few lines of code - the input,
an error-detector and the up/down GOTO thing. Easy to
keep track of. GOTO made the pgm simpler and more
compact.
Sounds like a jump table. We still do that, but with functions rather
than jumps.
In practical project terms, giant switch statements were a pain in the
bum, because everyone would constantly be modifying that bit of code and
you would get source code merge conflicts.
It's coming back to me, VAX BASIC programs would be designed to consist
of a massive "do processing" loop, which would consist of a big switch statement containing a case for every type of report or behaviour the
program was supposed to handle. Every time a new report was added, the
switch had a case added.
Then it reminds me of the Gang of Four visitor pattern, every time I saw
it, it took me a whole morning's thinking energy to understand that it
was just a simple switch :-).
Coding is always a balance between flexibility and clarity, there is no "right" answer. You can make code more flexible by adding another layer
of indirection, but it becomes harder to understand.
candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote at 21:05 this Wednesday (GMT):
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 03:37:58 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm ... how many now have EVER programmed in BASIC ?
Should do a survey .....
Lord, who hasn't!? Well, probably depends on how you choose to
qualify it - we still use VB6 in-house at $EMPLOYER, and FreeBASIC
is my go-to for hacking together quick utility applications in
daily life, but I haven't touched old-school line-number
spaghetti-Gotoese BASIC since childhood, and certainly never built
any application of real complexity with it. Bet more than a few
people here have, though, especially if we cross-posted over to
a.f.computers...
Given the typical age of most posters here, I'd say nearly every one
of us has written /something/ in one or more of the 75 different
variants of "BASIC" that have existed over time.
I haven't
Which would make you a member of the remainder of "nearly every" (which
does not encompass "all").
It would also imply that you /may/ be one of the younger members posting
in the group.
On 2024-11-22, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup
code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s
going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
reader sees.
+1
GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes
a single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
(all such variables are global and I initialize them to NULL
or whatever other value is appropriate). Then, if the error
message argument is not NULL, it displays and/or logs the
message and calls exit() with a non-zero argument. If the
error message argument is NULL, it simply calls exit(0).
I can call it from anywhere, and it guarantees an orderly shutdown.
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
More recent languages have other options (‘defer’, ‘finally’, destructors, etc).
In OO, switch/case statements were deprecated too :-) I can't remember exactly why. I think it was because we were supposed to use polymorphism instead.
The 'nogoto' was really a fool's rule.
After all, what is a subroutine call other than a
GOTO paired with a "come from"?
Coding is always a balance between flexibility and clarity, there isI echo that. The 'nogoto' was really a fool's rule. The wise man's
no "right" answer. You can make code more flexible by adding another
layer of indirection, but it becomes harder to understand.
guidance was 'make it clear what you are doing because you or someone
else - may need to understand it in a years time'
I dpnt find OO in general makes code easier to understand.
I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:
I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.
Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a little too unconventional these days ...
Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.
On 11/23/24 00:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:
I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.
Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a
little too unconventional these days ...
Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.
No, not that I remember. Classes, Metaclasses, Single inheritance, very clean.
I think Smalltalk was more a teaching tool rather than anything
people used commercially.
On 11/23/24 00:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:
I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.
Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a
little too unconventional these days ...
Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.
No, not that I remember. Classes, Metaclasses, Single inheritance, very clean. I think Smalltalk was more a teaching tool rather than anything
people used commercially. It was early enough in my development that OO concepts were like a first language to me. Perhaps if I had had a solid coding background in something like C before being introduced to OO, I
would think differently.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I take it you're also not a fan of Perl 🙂
Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language
I've heard it called:
"Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.
Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with the camel on the
front. About two chapters in I said "WHY ???".
On 2024-11-22, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup
code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s
going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
reader sees.
+1
GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes
a single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
(all such variables are global and I initialize them to NULL
or whatever other value is appropriate). Then, if the error
message argument is not NULL, it displays and/or logs the
message and calls exit() with a non-zero argument. If the
error message argument is NULL, it simply calls exit(0).
I can call it from anywhere, and it guarantees an orderly shutdown.
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote at 18:53 this Friday (GMT):
On 2024-11-22, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup >>>> code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s >>>> going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the
reader sees.
+1
GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes
a single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
(all such variables are global and I initialize them to NULL
or whatever other value is appropriate). Then, if the error
message argument is not NULL, it displays and/or logs the
message and calls exit() with a non-zero argument. If the
error message argument is NULL, it simply calls exit(0).
I can call it from anywhere, and it guarantees an orderly shutdown.
Unless you specifically use your own allocation wrapper that adds it to
an internal list, how do you deallocate "all" the allocations you've
done?
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 19:30:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The 'nogoto' was really a fool's rule.
I have never written a goto in (production) C code.
So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.
Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like to explicitly free everything come hell or high water.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 01:08:16 +0000, Pancho wrote:
On 11/23/24 00:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:
I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.
Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a
little too unconventional these days ...
Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.
No, not that I remember. Classes, Metaclasses, Single inheritance, very
clean.
“Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would call “classmethods”.
Python also has “metaclasses”, in the sense that
classes, being first-class objects, must be instances of something -- and that something is the metaclass.
Not sure if any other language has that meaning for “metaclass”.
I think Smalltalk was more a teaching tool rather than anything
people used commercially
I’m pretty sure it has been used commercially, back in the 1980s or
so, maybe even the 1990s.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:
calling it on a NULL
pointer is a harmless no-op,
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 01:08:16 +0000, Pancho wrote:
On 11/23/24 00:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:07:19 +0000, Pancho wrote:
I learnt Smalltalk before I learnt C.
Smalltalk is an interesting language. But I think it’s considered a
little too unconventional these days ...
Does it do multiple inheritance? I can’t remember.
No, not that I remember. Classes, Metaclasses, Single inheritance, very
clean. I think Smalltalk was more a teaching tool rather than anything
people used commercially. It was early enough in my development that OO
concepts were like a first language to me. Perhaps if I had had a solid
coding background in something like C before being introduced to OO, I
would think differently.
A person's experience is definitely a factor. My first language was
FORTRAN IV although I never did much with it.
As microcontrollers started
to appear in industrial applications I mostly worked wiht assembly or C, viewing C very much as an abstraction of assembly.
The Boston branch of the IEEE Computer Society was quite active and I
recall discussions of 'C with Classes' in the early '80s that eventually became C++.
I think C++ was a premature birth. Stroustrup's first and second editions used objects sparingly compared to what many of the popular texts did when trying to illustrate inheritance, polymorphism, and so forth.
The STL and
Standard Library were years in the future so you had companies like
Microsoft coming up with MFC.
Then there was Stroustrup's little quip
about C++ making it difficult to shoot yourself in the foot but when you
did you blew your whole leg off.
Esri used C++ for their Arc Objects API so I used C++ but it never became
my favorite language and the C++ part was mostly manipulating the objects rather than overall structure.
I use C# and Python so I don't dislike OO
when used sparingly. I might even like C++ these days although I have no
call to use it. When our department moved I looked through my dusty C++ reference books from 25 years ago and realized they are museum relics.
On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.
In *nix C code, a common convention is
if («call failed»)
{
perror(«doing what»);
exit(«nonzero error code»);
} /*if*/
<https://manpages.debian.org/3/perror.3.en.html>
Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like
to explicitly free everything come hell or high water.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:
calling it on a NULL pointer is a harmless no-op, so there is no need
to check for NULL before calling it. So my standard technique
(simplifying somewhat) is
On 11/22/24 12:51 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I take it you're also not a fan of Perl 🙂
Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language
I've heard it called:
"Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.
Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is
not unique :-)
Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with
the camel on the front. About two chapters in I
said "WHY ???".
On 2024-11-22, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote at 18:53 this Friday (GMT):
On 2024-11-22, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 22/11/2024 10:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
The one place I’ll use a goto (in C) is to branch to unified cleanup >>>>> code in an error case, usually using a macro both to emphasize what’s >>>>> going on and to stop the error-handling guff from dominating what the >>>>> reader sees.
+1
GOTO snafu_nuclear_option... :-)
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes
a single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
(all such variables are global and I initialize them to NULL
or whatever other value is appropriate). Then, if the error
message argument is not NULL, it displays and/or logs the
message and calls exit() with a non-zero argument. If the
error message argument is NULL, it simply calls exit(0).
I can call it from anywhere, and it guarantees an orderly shutdown.
Unless you specifically use your own allocation wrapper that adds it to
an internal list, how do you deallocate "all" the allocations you've
done?
I've occasionally considered making a list, but never got around to implementing such a scheme. So it's the good old-fashioned way -
free each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
Even then, leaks would be unlikely, because I try to close or free
resources as soon as I'm done with them, and the de-allocations
in quit_cleanup() are mostly belt-and-suspenders code.
On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
I’m pretty sure it has been used commercially, back in the 1980s or
so, maybe even the 1990s.
Probably, just as some people program in Haskell or Prolog.
I genuinely like OO design. It is the way I naturally think of program structure. It maps well to designing service orientated architectures.
On 11/23/24 07:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:
It isn't idempotent.
calling it on a NULL
pointer is a harmless no-op,
OK it is idempotent on NULL, but not in general.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:
It is not. Freeing the same non-null pointer twice is a bug (and a
common source of vulnerabilities).
calling it on a NULL pointer is a harmless no-op, so there is no need
to check for NULL before calling it. So my standard technique
(simplifying somewhat) is
‘free() and null out all copies of the pointer that can ever reach
free() in the future’ is idempotent, if you can get it right (which is usually not too hard in a well-organized program).
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:
It is not. Freeing the same non-null pointer twice is a bug (and a
common source of vulnerabilities).
calling it on a NULL pointer is a harmless no-op, so there is no need
to check for NULL before calling it. So my standard technique
(simplifying somewhat) is
‘free() and null out all copies of the pointer that can ever reach
free() in the future’ is idempotent, if you can get it right (which is usually not too hard in a well-organized program).
On 23/11/2024 09:05, Pancho wrote:
On 11/23/24 07:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:As I discovered to my shame. freeing the same pointer twice is not
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
So it's the good old-fashioned way - free
each allocation one by one and hope you don't forget one.
One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:
It isn't idempotent.
calling it on a NULL
pointer is a harmless no-op,
OK it is idempotent on NULL, but not in general.
harmless.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.
Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like to explicitly free
everything come hell or high water.
That actually slows down program termination.
On 11/23/24 07:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.
In *nix C code, a common convention is
if («call failed»)
{
perror(«doing what»);
exit(«nonzero error code»);
} /*if*/
<https://manpages.debian.org/3/perror.3.en.html>
Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like
to explicitly free everything come hell or high water.
I can see that is nice, to understand what you have,
but it sounds like hard work.
However there are some resource you do need to explicitly
free/release/close, some database locks for instance.
Did it?, there was Objective C too.
On 23/11/2024 09:05, Pancho wrote:
On 11/23/24 07:44, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:As I discovered to my shame. freeing the same pointer twice is not
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
So it's the good old-fashioned way - free each allocation one by one
and hope you don't forget one.
One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:
It isn't idempotent.
calling it on a NULL pointer is a harmless no-op,
OK it is idempotent on NULL, but not in general.
harmless.
On 23/11/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/22/24 12:51 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in it, and
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I take it you're also not a fan of Perl 🙂
Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language
I've heard it called:
"Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.
Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is not unique :-)
Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with the camel on the
front. About two chapters in I said "WHY ???".
thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals as a
hobby...
If a script gets that big it should be in a different language
altogether.
On 2024-11-23, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
On 11/23/24 07:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.
In *nix C code, a common convention is
if («call failed»)
{
perror(«doing what»);
exit(«nonzero error code»);
} /*if*/
<https://manpages.debian.org/3/perror.3.en.html>
Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like
to explicitly free everything come hell or high water.
I can see that is nice, to understand what you have,
but it sounds like hard work.
It's not, actually. Think of it like a mechanic methodically
putting all his tools back where they belong in the box when
he's done, rather than leaving them lying around the shop.
However there are some resource you do need to explicitly
free/release/close, some database locks for instance.
Therefore, why go the bother of having to memorize which
resources you have to explicity free, and which ones you
don't? Get into the habit of freeing them all - you might
avoid tedious debugging sessions when you forget which is which.
On 23/11/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/22/24 12:51 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in it, and
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I take it you're also not a fan of Perl 🙂
Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language
I've heard it called:
"Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.
Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is
not unique :-)
Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with
the camel on the front. About two chapters in I
said "WHY ???".
thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals as a
hobby...
If a script gets that big it should be in a different language altogether.
I dislike the use of malloc and friends in daemons that run forever.
On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
“Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would >> call “classmethods”.
I think the Smalltalk idea of treating classes as objects, is the
opposite of a hack.
I would say C++ static methods and static variables are a hack.
C# type reflection is a hack.
Just as value types are a hack in C#. Things that
are sensible for performance reasons, but that add complexity.
It was easy to see where Python metaclasses came from.
I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in [Perl],
and thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals as a hobby...
And, IIRC, trying to fclose() a NULL file pointer doesn't work too well.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:
It is not. Freeing the same non-null pointer twice is a bug (and a
common source of vulnerabilities).
On 2024-11-23, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a
single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.
Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like to explicitly free
everything come hell or high water.
That actually slows down program termination.
The microsecond or two that is wasted is far less than the debugging
time needed when a shortcut goes wrong.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:26:26 +0000, Pancho wrote:
On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
“Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would >>> call “classmethods”.
I think the Smalltalk idea of treating classes as objects, is the
opposite of a hack.
That is an elegant idea, but I don’t think it’s what Smalltalk did -- not with metaclasses, anyway. If you look at the draft (abandoned) ANSI
Smalltalk spec <https://github.com/johnwcowan/smalltalk-standard>, it says “because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior, metaclasses are not needed to provide the behavior of class objects”.
This is in contrast to Python, where metaclasses are very much an integral part of the behaviour of classes.
I would say C++ static methods and static variables are a hack.
They are there to provide access to the innards of a private/protected
class,
without having to go through instances of that class. In a language
like Python, which doesn’t bother constraining visibility to the innards
of a class, they are just a convenience for grouping purposes, nothing
more.
Much more useful are classmethods, which get passed the class object
itself as an argument. But that’s only possible in a dynamic language, not like C++, or even Java or C♯.
C# type reflection is a hack.
Is that like the convoluted “reflection” API in Java? (Mind you, most APIs
in Java seem to be convoluted ...)
Just as value types are a hack in C#. Things that
are sensible for performance reasons, but that add complexity.
Presumably, like Java, these mechanisms are there to avoid the need for
the services of the full language compiler at runtime.
It was easy to see where Python metaclasses came from.
Not really. Which language used metaclasses to instantiate classes before Python?
Python also does multiple inheritance. And it does it quite nicely, benefiting from lessons learned in earlier attempts at “linearization” (coming up with a consistent and minimally-surprising method resolution
order across all the base classes).
To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour implemented?
I would say C++ static methods and static variables are a hack.
They are there to provide access to the innards of a private/protected
class,
No, C++ static means class method or class variable.
No they are there for performance, because you don't want to have to doJust as value types are a hack in C#. Things that are sensible for
performance reasons, but that add complexity.
Presumably, like Java, these mechanisms are there to avoid the need for
the services of the full language compiler at runtime.
a malloc and instance initialisation for every number you use.
Python also does multiple inheritance. And it does it quite nicely,
benefiting from lessons learned in earlier attempts at “linearization” >> (coming up with a consistent and minimally-surprising method resolution
order across all the base classes).
Yeah, we discussed this in the past. I'm totally unconvinced of the desirability of complex multiple inheritance linearization.
I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.
On 23/11/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/22/24 12:51 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in it, and
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:19:55 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 21/11/2024 07:20, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I take it you're also not a fan of Perl 🙂
Perfectly Execrable Rubbish Language
I've heard it called:
"Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"
It changed the meaning of the term “high-level language” forever.
Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is
not unique :-)
Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with
the camel on the front. About two chapters in I
said "WHY ???".
thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals as a
hobby...
If a script gets that big it should be in a different language altogether.
It reminds me of a cartoon picture of a nerd saying 'I use a Unix based operating system. My computers crash about as often as I get laid'
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:57:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with the camel on the
front. About two chapters in I said "WHY ???".
Perl was designed by a bunch of clever people, who understood the sort of features they wanted to add. The trouble is, they did it in kind of an ad- hoc way, so the syntax, like Topsy, “just growed”.
"Feature creep" ... you keep having to figure out how to jam new
stuff into the middle of the old stuff until you just have a total
MESS. That's when you're supposed to totally re-do, or abandon, but
Perl was already too well 'established' so they were stuck with
what/how ' came before.
"Feature creep" ... you keep having to figure out how to jam new
stuff into the middle of the old stuff until you just have a total
MESS. That's when you're supposed to totally re-do, or abandon, but
Perl was already too well 'established' so they were stuck with
what/how ' came before.
I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.
But yea ... there soon comes a point where you ought to implement in
a better, more proper, language. Whatever it is, at least use Python
if for no other reason than that it's generally comprehensible. They
kept expanding Bash with more obscure squiggles and bars and "two
spaces, not one" almost to the point where you may as well be using
BrainFuck or similar.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:23:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
"Feature creep" ... you keep having to figure out how to jam new
stuff into the middle of the old stuff until you just have a total
MESS. That's when you're supposed to totally re-do, or abandon, but
Perl was already too well 'established' so they were stuck with
what/how ' came before.
Which is where the Perl 6 project came in. But it took so long to come to fruition, and was such a radical change, that it was decided to stop
calling it “Perl” altogether, and make it an entirely new language -- “Raku”, I think is the name now.
On 11/23/24 21:36, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:26:26 +0000, Pancho wrote:
On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
“Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would >>>> call “classmethods”.
I think the Smalltalk idea of treating classes as objects, is the
opposite of a hack.
That is an elegant idea, but I don’t think it’s what Smalltalk did -- not
with metaclasses, anyway. If you look at the draft (abandoned) ANSI
Smalltalk spec <https://github.com/johnwcowan/smalltalk-standard>, it
says
“because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior,
metaclasses are not needed to provide the behavior of class objects”.
The full quote...
"Class objects have no special significance other than having names and having behaviors and state distinct from that of
their associated instance objects. Unlike classic Smalltalk definitions [Goldberg83], they are not defined as being the
containers or implementers of their instances' behavior. The techniques
used to implement the behavior of objects is left to
the implementers. Finally, because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior, metaclasses are not needed
to provide the behavior of class objects. "
I learnt Smalltalk nearly 40 years ago, needless to say I learnt from
the Goldberg Smalltalk-80 bluebook, not the current spec.
To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour implemented?
I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 10:16:46 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
One thing that helps is that free(3) is idempotent:
It is not. Freeing the same non-null pointer twice is a bug (and a
common source of vulnerabilities).
That’s not what I meant by “idempotent”,
and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so by default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.
On 11/23/2024 4:16 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/11/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:There was a time when Python was still at version 1.something, Ruby
Well ... glad to see my opinion of Perl is not unique :-)I just saw the type of people who created enormous scripts in it,
Way back I bought the usual "Learn Perl" book with the camel
on the front. About two chapters in I said "WHY ???".
and thought 'total wankers' They typically read instruction manuals
as a hobby...
If a script gets that big it should be in a different language
altogether.
hadn't been introduced, so the choices were limited to shells (like
sh and its relatives), compiled languages like C, and Perl. Perl did
the job, and it was enough like C to seem familiar, so here we are.
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
reason than that it's generally comprehensible.
Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
I despise Python.
Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
reason than that it's generally comprehensible.
On 24/11/2024 14:37, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:I can't say a good word for either, having never written a line in
Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
reason than that it's generally comprehensible.
Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
I despise Python.
either, I am disnclined to learn.
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
reason than that it's generally comprehensible.
Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
I despise Python.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so by
default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.
Glibc’s double free detection is heuristic, not 100% reliable.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 24/11/2024 14:37, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:I can't say a good word for either, having never written a line in
Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
reason than that it's generally comprehensible.
Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
I despise Python.
either, I am disnclined to learn.
I've written quick scripts (and not so quick scripts for Perl) in both.
I prefer neither, but given a choice between only Perl or Python would
prefer Perl (unless Python had a required library interface available
that Perl did not).
I have already completely lost the plot. And the will to live.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:48:59 +0000, Pancho wrote:
To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour
implemented?
From further up: “A behavior is the set of methods used by an object to respond to messages”. Since a class itself has no such “behavior”, it doesn’t need to be an instance of anything, unlike Python.
I would say C++ static methods and static variables are a hack.
They are there to provide access to the innards of a private/protected
class,
No, C++ static means class method or class variable.
There are no “class methods” or “class variables” as such in C++: in C
terms, they have “static linkage”. The “class” part is just a visibility
restriction.
No they are there for performance, because you don't want to have to doJust as value types are a hack in C#. Things that are sensible for
performance reasons, but that add complexity.
Presumably, like Java, these mechanisms are there to avoid the need for
the services of the full language compiler at runtime.
a malloc and instance initialisation for every number you use.
Ah, like the distinction between “primitive types” and “reference types”
in Java.
Python manages to avoid this arbitrary separation: “int”, “float”, “str”,
“dict” etc are builtin types, and they are classes almost exactly like classes you define yourself; and in particular you can subclass them.
Python also does multiple inheritance. And it does it quite nicely,
benefiting from lessons learned in earlier attempts at “linearization” >>> (coming up with a consistent and minimally-surprising method resolution
order across all the base classes).
Yeah, we discussed this in the past. I'm totally unconvinced of the
desirability of complex multiple inheritance linearization.
It is useful, for example, for creating enumerations of fixed instances of some particular base class. You inherit from both your particular base
class as well as the generic “enum.Enum” base class, to get suitable properties of both.
I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.
Python manages to provide a small, powerful language core that includes features that, for example, Java and C♯ had to leave out: lexical binding, functions and classes as first-class objects, operator overloads, arbitrary-precision integers, list comprehensions, dictionary and set expressions, descriptors, metaclasses ... this then allows for library modules to build on this core to provide powerful facilities in the form
of “domain-specific (sub)languages” (DSLs) that are specialized to particular problem areas.
For example, you don’t need “generics” or “templates”, à la Java/C++ etc,
because you can define a “class factory” function that constructs new classes at runtime.
Using Python means you get uniformity across many disciplines and it's
good enough for most things. It could have been Perl if it hadn't gotten stuck in the tar pits, or Ruby, or Go but from whatever twist of fate occurred it was Python.
On 11/24/24 00:31, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
What?, Classes do have methods, e.g. they should handle a "new" message
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:48:59 +0000, Pancho wrote:
To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour
implemented?
From further up: “A behavior is the set of methods used by an object
to respond to messages”. Since a class itself has no such “behavior”, >> it doesn’t need to be an instance of anything, unlike Python.
to create a new instance object of that class.
The fact that a compiler/interpreter might handle (implementation
detail) all class behaviour, as it does in C++, doesn't matter. It is
helpful to think of classes as objects in their own right.
Like an interface, IEnumerable (Chsarp), Iterable(Java)? or are you backYeah, we discussed this in the past. I'm totally unconvinced of the
desirability of complex multiple inheritance linearization.
It is useful, for example, for creating enumerations of fixed instances
of some particular base class. You inherit from both your particular
base class as well as the generic “enum.Enum” base class, to get
suitable properties of both.
to some special use for Enums.
My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about it either.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:48:59 +0000, Pancho wrote:
I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.
For many things it provides a convenient level of abstraction if
performance isn't a major concern. It's not so much the language itself as that the language has become very popular and the range of modules has greatly expanded.
For example, the Esri Python API makes common GIS manipulations less
painful than using C++. Similarly if you're into machine learning while TensorFlow and PyTorch have C++ bindings almost all tutorials will use Python. In data science Python is starting to overtake R and is actually faster for some operations. For REST APIs you have flask, django, and
several other frameworks.
For embedded work as Arm microprocessors have become the norm and SRAM has greatly increased a Python interpreter, either MicroPython or
CircuitPython can be loaded on the device. Again you can work in C++ and
get greater speed and control but it comes at a cost. Controlling a servo with PWM is easy in Python. Doing it in C++ means you need to determine
the slice and channel for the GPIO pin, decide what to load into the
counter to get the desired frequency from the 125 MHz clock,determine if
you need to use the divider for lower frequencies, and make other
decisions.
Using Python means you get uniformity across many disciplines and it's
good enough for most things. It could have been Perl if it hadn't gotten stuck in the tar pits, or Ruby, or Go but from whatever twist of fate occurred it was Python.
Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ...
get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot
what's inside what without using comments.
I'm just making the point that it easier to understand OO if you start
with a simple model. Just as it is easy to understand aspects of C if
you know an assembler.
On 11/24/24 05:01, rbowman wrote:
Using Python means you get uniformity across many disciplines and it's
good enough for most things. It could have been Perl if it hadn't
gotten stuck in the tar pits, or Ruby, or Go but from whatever twist of
fate occurred it was Python.
My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about it either. She then moved onto Go. But that was doing big web-server stuff. Large scale Docker setups, maybe Kubernetes.
I dabbled a bit in perl out of curiosity and I find the following two
points to be in its favour:
1. Backwards compatibility. Much better than python.
2. The built in documentation.
I never learned it until M$ started sneaking it into their OS junk.
"What's a .py ???". The good side of that is that it was right near
the v2 -> v3 transition and I decided to learn the 'new and
improved'.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:16:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-11-23, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 07:09:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:53:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
All my programs contain a routine called quit_cleanup(); it takes a >>>>>> single argument, which is either an error message or NULL.
It frees all allocated memory, closes any open files, etc.
But all that is unnecessary if your program is terminating anyway.
Perhaps, but I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy - I like to explicitly free >>>> everything come hell or high water.
That actually slows down program termination.
The microsecond or two that is wasted is far less than the debugging
time needed when a shortcut goes wrong.
Actually, thinking about it, there are some things -- shared memory
sections come to mind -- that are not automatically freed when a process terminates. But everything else -- memory, open files, network connections
-- will go away automatically.
If you have those persistent things that you want to clean up, your
technique won’t be reliable anyway.
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ...
get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot
what's inside what without using comments.
So use the comments. That’s what I do.
The eye doesn't spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 21:40 this Saturday (GMT):
Actually, thinking about it, there are some things -- shared memory
sections come to mind -- that are not automatically freed when a
process terminates. But everything else -- memory, open files, network
connections -- will go away automatically.
If you have those persistent things that you want to clean up, your
technique won’t be reliable anyway.
Does it get freed up when the other processes that have it open also
close it, or is it stuck until shutdown?
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I never learned it until M$ started sneaking it into their OS junk.
"What's a .py ???". The good side of that is that it was right near
the v2 -> v3 transition and I decided to learn the 'new and
improved'.
Good timing. Esri's ArcPy up until Esri 11 was 2.7 so I stayed with it for non-Esri scripts. The transition from 10.8 to 11 was bloody, not only for going to Python 3.8. Being the 500 lb. gorilla in the GIS field they could say "Yeah, this is going to break a lot of stuff you've been doing for
years. Suck it up." Like Windows 10, Esri 10.8 went on extended life support.
I don't think it was a giant conspiracy but several different applications
I dealt with went from 10.x to 11.x about the same time leading to some confusion. "Which 11 are we talking about?"
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:23:17 +0000, Pancho wrote:
I'm just making the point that it easier to understand OO if you start
with a simple model. Just as it is easy to understand aspects of C if
you know an assembler.
https://go.dev/doc/faq#Is_Go_an_object-oriented_language
Just saying...
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
reason than that it's generally comprehensible.
Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
I despise Python.
I see no other way to resolve this but for you two to fight to the death.
On 23/11/2024 23:48, Pancho wrote:
On 11/23/24 21:36, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:26:26 +0000, Pancho wrote:
On 11/23/24 01:41, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
“Metaclasses” were just a bit of a hack to implement what Python would
call “classmethods”.
I think the Smalltalk idea of treating classes as objects, is the
opposite of a hack.
That is an elegant idea, but I don’t think it’s what Smalltalk did -- >>> not
with metaclasses, anyway. If you look at the draft (abandoned) ANSI
Smalltalk spec <https://github.com/johnwcowan/smalltalk-standard>, it
says
“because classes are not specified as the implementers of behavior,
metaclasses are not needed to provide the behavior of class objects”.
The full quote...
"Class objects have no special significance other than having names
and having behaviors and state distinct from that of
their associated instance objects. Unlike classic Smalltalk
definitions [Goldberg83], they are not defined as being the
containers or implementers of their instances' behavior. The
techniques used to implement the behavior of objects is left to
the implementers. Finally, because classes are not specified as the
implementers of behavior, metaclasses are not needed
to provide the behavior of class objects. "
I have already completely lost the plot. And the will to live.
I learnt Smalltalk nearly 40 years ago, needless to say I learnt fromMate I havent a clue what *any* of it means. It's classic compSci Gobbledygook.
the Goldberg Smalltalk-80 bluebook, not the current spec.
To be honest, I don't have an idea what classes not being the
implementers of instance behaviour means. Where is instance behaviour
implemented?
I'm actually quite unconvinced by Python.
Richard Kettlewell wrote:
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so by
default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.
Glibc’s double free detection is heuristic, not 100% reliable.
If that were true, the examples on the man page wouldn’t work.
Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days
know ASM. As such they will not be enlightened
about 'C' in that fashion. Today's geeks mostly
start with Python and MIGHT go a little further,
likely Rust.
Just sayin'
Things changed between 1984 and 2024.
We Old Guys can kinda look at 'C' and see
the ASM it's going to become. Later gens
do not.
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 22:07:40 +0100, D wrote:
I dabbled a bit in perl out of curiosity and I find the following two
points to be in its favour:
1. Backwards compatibility. Much better than python.
Well, that's true. Looking over at the bookshelf I see 'Programming the
Perl DBI' from 2000. It probably works just as well in 5.40.0 as it did in 5.6.0.
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/programming-the-perl/1565926994/
There isn't a newer version. That's remarkable for close to 25 years. Most
of my other books from 2000 are suitable for propping up mismatched table legs.
I did appreciate the concept of a uniform DBI with specific DBDs in the
back end.
2. The built in documentation.
Python offers a lot of built in documentation, assuming the modules follow the PEP guidelines.
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:29:05 +0000, Pancho wrote:
On 11/24/24 05:01, rbowman wrote:
Using Python means you get uniformity across many disciplines and it's
good enough for most things. It could have been Perl if it hadn't
gotten stuck in the tar pits, or Ruby, or Go but from whatever twist of
fate occurred it was Python.
My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about it
either. She then moved onto Go. But that was doing big web-server stuff.
Large scale Docker setups, maybe Kubernetes.
Horses for courses. I tasked a new hire with developing an interface to Spidertracks.
https://www.spidertracks.com/
I gave him the requirements but didn't specify a language so he did it
with Go. No big deal other than having to set up a Go environment on the build machine. Go is what you would expect from three C programmers who
hate C++ and I mean that it a good way. Not sure why they put the
parameter type after the parameter but I can live with that. It's hanging
in there:
https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
for whatever worth the index has.
On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ...
get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot
what's inside what without using comments.
So use the comments. That’s what I do.
Only good way ...
Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.
On 24/11/2024 21:06, D wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
reason than that it's generally comprehensible.
Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that >>> I despise Python.
I see no other way to resolve this but for you two to fight to the death.
Interpreters, at dawn..
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:29:05 +0000, Pancho wrote:
My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about it
either.
What was her previous experience? Not (splutter) PHP, by any chance?
The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3
shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl, since the libraries that remain are old and mature.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 04:40:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 21:40 this Saturday (GMT):
Actually, thinking about it, there are some things -- shared memory
sections come to mind -- that are not automatically freed when a
process terminates. But everything else -- memory, open files, network
connections -- will go away automatically.
If you have those persistent things that you want to clean up, your
technique won’t be reliable anyway.
Does it get freed up when the other processes that have it open also
close it, or is it stuck until shutdown?
POSIX shared memory sections stay in existence until deletion, or system shutdown.
<https://manpages.debian.org/3/shm_unlink.3.en.html>
On 24/11/2024 14:37, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:I can't say a good word for either, having never written a line in
Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
reason than that it's generally comprehensible.
Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
I despise Python.
either, I am disnclined to learn.
I tried a bit of go, and setting up the environment as an amateur was
dead simple.
Is this also the case for professionals?
Was a strict 'C'/Pascal guy for a long time - but now I always at
least proto in Python. For many apps where speed isn't paramount just
LEAVE it in Python.
On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3
shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But I
imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it is a
"live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl, since the
libraries that remain are old and mature.
The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
An entry point for PWCP
People Who Cant Program.
On 11/24/24 22:37, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 21:29:05 +0000, Pancho wrote:
My niece worked on Python at Twitter. She wasn't complimentary about
it either.
What was her previous experience? Not (splutter) PHP, by any chance?
No, she wasn't originally employed as a programmer. Python was her first language.
The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
Richard Kettlewell wrote:
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so
by default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.
Glibc’s double free detection is heuristic, not 100% reliable.
(It’s documented as heuristic in the Glibc internals documentation and a glance at the implementation does seem to agree with that.)
If that were true, the examples on the man page wouldn’t work.
No, that doesn’t follow. “Not 100% reliable” doesn’t mean specific examples don’t work.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 10:53:43 +0100, D wrote:
I tried a bit of go, and setting up the environment as an amateur was
dead simple.
Is this also the case for professionals?
Sure. Compared to setting up for the Java application it was a walk in the park. Part of it was brought on by ourselves but getting the Java app
built and packaged was convoluted.
I don't know how well the Go app would have worked out in the long term, including maintenance after the original programmer left. It never saw the light of day. That happens sometimes when the client decides to take
another path.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3
shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But
I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it
is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl,
since the libraries that remain are old and mature.
The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.
I see that as elitist. The more people who can learn to do simple programming, and simplify their lives, the better!
One of my customers has an in house developed, huge, java program. They
have been developing it, based on a ph.d. thesis for the last 10 years,
and they also tried to shun libraries but have written a lot of
functionality from scratch.
I almost started to work there 7 years ago, but that would have been too early. It is absolutely fascinating how much they achieved in the past 7 years and how much their program has matured.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 01:41:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The eye doesn't spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.
I use both.
... I tend to use only 2-space indents so complex nestings
won't run off the edge of the page ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ...
get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot
what's inside what without using comments.
So use the comments. That’s what I do.
Only good way ...
Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.
You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye spotting capability! ;)
SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot nestings fairly
well, but I mostly just use nano in one terminal and do test runs
from another. Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
most of the time.
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days
know ASM. As such they will not be enlightened
about 'C' in that fashion. Today's geeks mostly
start with Python and MIGHT go a little further,
likely Rust.
Just sayin'
Things changed between 1984 and 2024.
We Old Guys can kinda look at 'C' and see
the ASM it's going to become. Later gens
do not.
It’s a common mental model for C, but it’s not accurate. The language spec leaves an awful lot of wiggle room for the generated code to
diverge from the “I can see the assembler” model and compilers take full advantage of it.
A simple example, based on a historical Linux kernel vulnerability (CVE-2009-1897):
int f(int *xp) {
int x = *xp;
if(!xp)
return 0;
return x;
}
In the “assembler” model it would compile to something like this:
mov eax,dword ptr [rdi]
cmp rdi,0
jne L1
mov eax,0
L1:
ret
In fact at -O2 the test on xp is optimized out:
mov eax, dword ptr [rdi]
ret
https://godbolt.org/z/caKeTMTxf to play further.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 02:33:32 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Was a strict 'C'/Pascal guy for a long time - but now I always at
least proto in Python. For many apps where speed isn't paramount just
LEAVE it in Python.
https://blog.miguelgrinberg.com/post/is-python-really-that-slow
Simplistic but I found the comparisons of the different Python 3 versions interesting. For a while it was slower than 2.7, not a good thing, but
3.11 caught up. I don't know why the bubble sort regressed.
PyPy looks promising. I don't know why they were able to implement the JIT that is hanging fire in CPython.
Heh ... much of my 'C' looks like the top example, all
straight-forward and readable. As I said somewhere, 'C' was the
neat-o new lang back when I got started in things so I strongly trend
towards the K&R look and feel even now.
SO easy to write incomprehensible 'C' !
On 11/25/24 4:07 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:...
Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days
know ASM. As such they will not be enlightened
about 'C' in that fashion. Today's geeks mostly
start with Python and MIGHT go a little further,
likely Rust.
Just sayin'
Things changed between 1984 and 2024.
We Old Guys can kinda look at 'C' and see
the ASM it's going to become. Later gens
do not.
It’s a common mental model for C, but it’s not accurate. The language >> spec leaves an awful lot of wiggle room for the generated code to
diverge from the “I can see the assembler” model and compilers take full >> advantage of it.
A simple example, based on a historical Linux kernel vulnerability
(CVE-2009-1897):
int f(int *xp) {
int x = *xp;
if(!xp)
return 0;
return x;
}
In the “assembler” model it would compile to something like this:
mov eax,dword ptr [rdi]
cmp rdi,0
jne L1
mov eax,0
L1:
ret
In fact at -O2 the test on xp is optimized out:
mov eax, dword ptr [rdi]
ret
https://godbolt.org/z/caKeTMTxf to play further.
That final example shows how tight that particular bit CAN be made.
How the compiler figures that out - NO idea !
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:59:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Heh ... much of my 'C' looks like the top example, all
straight-forward and readable. As I said somewhere, 'C' was the
neat-o new lang back when I got started in things so I strongly trend
towards the K&R look and feel even now.
SO easy to write incomprehensible 'C' !
Most of them have been 'fixed' but I'm sure there are K&R style
definitions lurking someplace.
#include "stdio.h"
int add_stuff(a, b, c)
int a;
int b;
int c;
{
return a + b +c;
}
int main(void)
{
printf("the sum is %d\n", add_stuff(1, 4, 6));
return 0;
}
still works with gcc 11.4 although with std=c2x it warns
junk.c: In function ‘add_stuff’:
junk.c:3:5: warning: old-style function definition [-Wold-style-
definition]
3 | int add_stuff(a, b, c)
| ^~~~~~~~~
I don't know if gcc will ever default to whining about them. That's
staying power -- 46 years and cointing.
I wouldn't be surprised if it does soon - after all, it whines about
just about everything else these days. Each new version spits out tons
of new warnings, and I go over my code and get rid of every one
(sometimes correcting questionable code in the process). And then I
started compiling the Windows version of my stuff with MinGW, and the
process began anew.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 08:57:09 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
Richard Kettlewell wrote:
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
and that particular case is easy to catch anyway, and glibc does so
by default. See <https://manpages.debian.org/3/mallopt.3.en.html>.
Glibc’s double free detection is heuristic, not 100% reliable.
(It’s documented as heuristic in the Glibc internals documentation and a >> glance at the implementation does seem to agree with that.)
If that were true, the examples on the man page wouldn’t work.
No, that doesn’t follow. “Not 100% reliable” doesn’t mean specific >> examples don’t work.
Why not? The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be detected reliably.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 23:21:21 +0100, D wrote:
One of my customers has an in house developed, huge, java program. They
have been developing it, based on a ph.d. thesis for the last 10 years,
and they also tried to shun libraries but have written a lot of
functionality from scratch.
I almost started to work there 7 years ago, but that would have been too
early. It is absolutely fascinating how much they achieved in the past 7
years and how much their program has matured.
Those things tend to grow. There is a small town that is handled by the county sheriffs department but it's about 50 miles from the dispatch
station. The original Java app allowed the substation to have some idea
what was going on in town, but there was no interaction. It was simple to
set up and to update. Over the years it grew into a fully functional interface with parts being reused to build an Android app.
I did a few minor enhancements over the years for GIS related
functionality with great care since I am not a competent Java programmer.
I was interested in Java in the late '90s. In my edition of 'Java in a Nutshell' it still fit in a nutshell rather than a whole damn walnut tree.
My first disillusionment came when Swing was added on top of AWT. "your
app runs like a herniated sloth? You need a bigger, faster machine!"
I have the media for Visual J++. It showed promise before it was
kneecapped by Sun. imho C# is Java done right.
On 11/25/24 4:56 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ... >>>>> get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot >>>>> what's inside what without using comments.
So use the comments. That’s what I do.
Only good way ...
Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.
You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye spotting
capability! ;)
As I said to Larry, I almost always use just 2-space
indents so deeply-nested stuff doesn't tend to run
off the page margin. Object langs make this even worse
with all the something.something.something.something
sorts of lines.
SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot
nestings fairly well, but I mostly just use nano
in one terminal and do test runs from another.
Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
most of the time.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:20:02 +0100, D wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3 >>>> shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But
I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it
is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl,
since the libraries that remain are old and mature.
The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.
I see that as elitist. The more people who can learn to do simple
programming, and simplify their lives, the better!
Python doesn't have a lock on the domain. I worked with a PhD chemist who programmed in Fortran. He knew his chemistry but his Fortran looked like a train wreck. The math was good and could be extracted into production
code. Many People Who Can't Program evolve into People Who Can Program or have valuable expertise in a field where being able to express it, however awkwardly, is valuable.
One of the job descriptions of a good manager is the ability to tell the difference.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:20:02 +0100, D wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3 >>>> shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But
I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it
is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl,
since the libraries that remain are old and mature.
The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.
I see that as elitist. The more people who can learn to do simple
programming, and simplify their lives, the better!
Python doesn't have a lock on the domain. I worked with a PhD chemist who programmed in Fortran. He knew his chemistry but his Fortran looked like a train wreck. The math was good and could be extracted into production
code. Many People Who Can't Program evolve into People Who Can Program or have valuable expertise in a field where being able to express it, however awkwardly, is valuable.
One of the job descriptions of a good manager is the ability to tell the difference.
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 14:39:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/11/2024 14:37, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:I can't say a good word for either, having never written a line in
Whatever it is, at least use Python if for no other
reason than that it's generally comprehensible.
Oh good lord no. The amount for which you hate Perl is the amount that
I despise Python.
either, I am disnclined to learn.
I've been learning Python, off-and-on, but my go-to languages
are still Perl or C.
(I learned OO programming with Perl. Please don't hate me.)
On 11/25/24 23:55, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 22:20:02 +0100, D wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/11/2024 09:55, D wrote:
The problem with python is the quality of the ecosystem and the 2 to 3 >>>>> shift. I find the quality of python libraries lower than in perl. But >>>>> I imagine that is due to there simply being more of them, and that it >>>>> is a "live" language. Perhaps I found the quality better in perl,
since the libraries that remain are old and mature.
The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.
I see that as elitist. The more people who can learn to do simple
programming, and simplify their lives, the better!
Python doesn't have a lock on the domain. I worked with a PhD chemist who
programmed in Fortran. He knew his chemistry but his Fortran looked like a >> train wreck. The math was good and could be extracted into production
code. Many People Who Can't Program evolve into People Who Can Program or
have valuable expertise in a field where being able to express it, however >> awkwardly, is valuable.
One of the job descriptions of a good manager is the ability to tell the
difference.
The fundamental characteristic of a good programmer is to be able to
deliver an application that is useful. Everything else is secondary.
IT department standards for good "production code" were often dogmatic nonsense, labour intensive, often failures. Perhaps it has improved, but
in my day corporate IT management was dominated by snake-oil salesman
using a team of very poor drone programmers. Management liked drone
programmers, because they were easier to manage, interchangeable. The
trouble was that getting an app to work took a higher level of
understanding and skill, rather than just joining the dots.
Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
<snip>
The fundamental characteristic of a good programmer is to be able to
deliver an application that is useful. Everything else is secondary.
IT department standards for good "production code" were often dogmatic
nonsense, labour intensive, often failures. Perhaps it has improved, but
It has not. For "enterprise" style software at least.
in my day corporate IT management was dominated by snake-oil salesman
Still present (ClownStrike anyone?).
using a team of very poor drone programmers. Management liked drone
Also still present. I've described it as "they can assemble lego's
if given the instruction book -- ask them to create a lego model
without the instruction book and they are lost"
programmers, because they were easier to manage, interchangeable. The
trouble was that getting an app to work took a higher level of
understanding and skill, rather than just joining the dots.
Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get
back a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.
Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get back
a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.
Of course, my early C++ code was pretty awful.
I imagine that the fact that they keep external library dependencies to
a minimum makes it easier for them, than if they had a lot of
dependencies on third party libraries.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 10:09:37 +0100, D wrote:
I imagine that the fact that they keep external library dependencies to
a minimum makes it easier for them, than if they had a lot of
dependencies on third party libraries.
That helps. We did an Angular app and package.json wound up with over 80 dependencies. Downloading them all was painful and sometimes introduced problems. One example was using Protobuf 2.0. Protobuf 3.0 was not
backward compatible.
We got good at the semantics of package-lock when it became clear that not everyone played by the rules of not breaking stuff in minor versions.
I'd done a web map using node for the backend. It had 8 dependencies, all
of which were stable. Increase that by a factor of 10 and it gets chewy.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:17:08 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get back
a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.
The holy grail for management is a design methodology that gets adequate results from a workforce of varying aptitudes. Particularly for larger corporations you'll get a normal distribution, a few very good, a few completely useless, and a lot of mediocrity. That's what you have to work with.
What I've seen over the years is a company will luck out, get a better
than average distribution, and achieve success. Whatever they're doing is taken as an example of the right way and copied mechanically. Top down structured programming, agile, devops, and so forth have their day.
TI lucked out in the '70s and used something they called 'matrix
management' that became the new Wunderkind. The '80s brought 'In Search of Excellence'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence
Good money was made from book sales and training sessions from independent snake oil salesmen preaching the gospel. The company I worked for had one
of the sessions. Not too many of the 'excellent' corporations are around today.
About 10 years ago the company I now work for had a 'pair programming' session. That was hilarious. The 'experts' were only familiar with Apple machines and other than the one they brought there wasn't an Apple in the building. Having been through required attendance things before my team carefully stayed to the back of the room where we could slink away and get back to business.
I'm sure the next methodology will wrap itself around AI, spin off
training companies, and mostly fail to deliver on the promises.
The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be
detected reliably.
They do no such thing.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be
detected reliably.
They do no such thing.
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);
Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can be detected
reliably.
They do no such thing.
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);
Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?
Obviously you are not arguing in good faith.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
free(p);The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can beThey do no such thing.
detected reliably.
printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);
Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:17:08 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get back >>> a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.
The holy grail for management is a design methodology that gets adequate
results from a workforce of varying aptitudes. Particularly for larger
corporations you'll get a normal distribution, a few very good, a few
completely useless, and a lot of mediocrity. That's what you have to work
with.
What I've seen over the years is a company will luck out, get a better
than average distribution, and achieve success. Whatever they're doing is
taken as an example of the right way and copied mechanically. Top down
structured programming, agile, devops, and so forth have their day.
TI lucked out in the '70s and used something they called 'matrix
management' that became the new Wunderkind. The '80s brought 'In Search of >> Excellence'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence
Good money was made from book sales and training sessions from independent >> snake oil salesmen preaching the gospel. The company I worked for had one
of the sessions. Not too many of the 'excellent' corporations are around
today.
About 10 years ago the company I now work for had a 'pair programming'
session. That was hilarious. The 'experts' were only familiar with Apple
machines and other than the one they brought there wasn't an Apple in the
building. Having been through required attendance things before my team
carefully stayed to the back of the room where we could slink away and get >> back to business.
I'm sure the next methodology will wrap itself around AI, spin off
training companies, and mostly fail to deliver on the promises.
Ahh... and today you have agile snakeoil salesmen! I heard a story from
the girlfriend of one of my consultants. Her company, a computer game company, hired an "agile coach" who was workshopping away like a madman.
One programmer said... "but this agile thing, it seems to me like it will become less efficient and more work, that's bad", the snakeoil salesman responded "I hear you and appreciate your concern, but if agile makes
things worse, you're not doing it right, and that's why we are here"! ;)
Ahh... and today you have agile snakeoil salesmen! I heard a story from
the girlfriend of one of my consultants. Her company, a computer game company, hired an "agile coach" who was workshopping away like a madman.
On 11/26/2024 2:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
free(p);The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can beThey do no such thing.
detected reliably.
printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);
Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?
In the example in the man page, if the two free() calls are back to
back with no intervening malloc() calls, the double free() is
detected. I tried adding a malloc(1000) call in the middle:
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);
malloc(1000);
printf("%s(): returned from second malloc(1000) call\n", __func__);
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);
and the program ran to completion with no apparent problem.
The compiler does what it can and glibc does what it can, but C is C
and the heap is what it is, and no, I don't know how this would work
in Rust.
In the example in the man page, if the two free() calls are back to back
with no intervening malloc() calls, the double free() is detected. I
tried adding a malloc(1000) call in the middle:
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);
malloc(1000);
printf("%s(): returned from second malloc(1000) call\n", __func__);
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);
and the program ran to completion with no apparent problem.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 17:55:10 -0700, Louis Krupp wrote:As far as I can tell, the distributed version of jemalloc isn't
In the example in the man page, if the two free() calls are back to backI wonder if alternative memory allocators might not do better.
with no intervening malloc() calls, the double free() is detected. I
tried adding a malloc(1000) call in the middle:
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);
malloc(1000);
printf("%s(): returned from second malloc(1000) call\n", __func__); >>
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);
and the program ran to completion with no apparent problem.
jemalloc, for example <https://github.com/jemalloc/jemalloc/wiki/Use-Case%3A-Find-a-memory-corruption-bug>.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 12:04:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The problem with Python is it seems to be the new BASIC.
No, it is not. It is a far superior basis on which to build on than BASIC ever was.
An entry point for PWCP People Who Cant Program.
There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/25/24 4:56 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ... >>>>>> get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot >>>>>> what's inside what without using comments.
So use the comments. That’s what I do.
Only good way ...
Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.
You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye
spotting capability! ;)
As I said to Larry, I almost always use just 2-space
indents so deeply-nested stuff doesn't tend to run
off the page margin. Object langs make this even worse
with all the something.something.something.something
sorts of lines.
SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot
nestings fairly well, but I mostly just use nano
in one terminal and do test runs from another.
Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
most of the time.
I use four, but since worked as a systems administrator (or what today
be called "devops") I never wrote any programs large enough, or
complicated enough, to run out of line space.
This is what I do not like about power shell. Some of the commands are
way too long to type. I like ls, df, du & co! It would be horrible to
have to type list_files every time.
On 11/26/24 4:12 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/25/24 4:56 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing ... >>>>>>> get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to spot >>>>>>> what's inside what without using comments.
So use the comments. That’s what I do.
Only good way ...
Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.
You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye spotting >>>> capability! ;)
As I said to Larry, I almost always use just 2-space
indents so deeply-nested stuff doesn't tend to run
off the page margin. Object langs make this even worse
with all the something.something.something.something
sorts of lines.
SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot
nestings fairly well, but I mostly just use nano
in one terminal and do test runs from another.
Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
most of the time.
I use four, but since worked as a systems administrator (or what today be
called "devops") I never wrote any programs large enough, or complicated
enough, to run out of line space.
My last big Python app was about 450 lines of code - and
it had LOTS of option switches (TOO many!). Things got
nested really deep sometimes.
Shrank that to about 250 lines of Pascal (the re-think
plus leaving out the options even I never used).
This is what I do not like about power shell. Some of the commands are way >> too long to type. I like ls, df, du & co! It would be horrible to have to
type list_files every time.
I kinda have to admit, or brag, that I never used PowerShell.
But yea, shortish generally IS a lot better. Longish is
one reason I hate JS, and then there was COBOL :-)
Haven't done a COBOL app for a long time ... I'll have
to do something ... found a COBOL IDE of sorts somewhere ...
ah, OpenCobolIDE (a PyPy pgm).
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 21:58:45 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... and today you have agile snakeoil salesmen! I heard a story from
the girlfriend of one of my consultants. Her company, a computer game
company, hired an "agile coach" who was workshopping away like a madman.
Right... I wonder if they even believe in the snake oil.We had a police chief who was a pretty nice guy but had a weakness for traveling medicine shows that would teach the officers about gang violence and so forth. Even the low lifes in town knew the 'gangs' were bored 12 year olds with spray cans that would last 4 seconds in Compton but he lapped it up.
Then the Hells Angels came for vacation and he went off the deep end. The Angels were better behaved than when the BMW riders came to town but he imported cops from another state to deal with the potential bloody
violence. The violence turned out to be the out of state cops arresting college kids who were protesting the over the top treatment of the bikers.
City council went ballistic when they got the bill and it turned out it's against state law to import cops, something that goes back to the copper mines and Pinkertons, so the chief was fired.
I'm sure the snake oil salesmen took the show to some other town. The
agile people probably use the same model.
On 11/26/2024 2:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 08:32:32 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
free(p);The examples show that freeing the same pointer twice can beThey do no such thing.
detected reliably.
printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);
Is that or is that not freeing the same pointer twice?
In the example in the man page, if the two free() calls are back to back
with no intervening malloc() calls, the double free() is detected. I
tried adding a malloc(1000) call in the middle:
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from first free() call\n", __func__);
malloc(1000);
printf("%s(): returned from second malloc(1000) call\n", __func__);
free(p);
printf("%s(): returned from second free() call\n", __func__);
and the program ran to completion with no apparent problem.
Rich wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
<snip>
The fundamental characteristic of a good programmer is to be able to
deliver an application that is useful. Everything else is secondary.
Nah, the application must also be maintainable.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:17:08 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
Yep, exactly. If they can be given instructions that match their "lego
brick set" they can snap something together. Ask them to do anything
that requires creativity or research and understanding, and you get back
a turd that has had hours of polishing applied.
The holy grail for management is a design methodology that gets adequate results from a workforce of varying aptitudes. Particularly for larger corporations you'll get a normal distribution, a few very good, a few completely useless, and a lot of mediocrity. That's what you have to work with.
What I've seen over the years is a company will luck out, get a better
than average distribution, and achieve success. Whatever they're doing is taken as an example of the right way and copied mechanically. Top down structured programming, agile, devops, and so forth have their day.
TI lucked out in the '70s and used something they called 'matrix
management' that became the new Wunderkind. The '80s brought 'In Search of Excellence'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence
Good money was made from book sales and training sessions from independent snake oil salesmen preaching the gospel. The company I worked for had one
of the sessions. Not too many of the 'excellent' corporations are around today.
About 10 years ago the company I now work for had a 'pair programming' session. That was hilarious. The 'experts' were only familiar with Apple machines and other than the one they brought there wasn't an Apple in the building. Having been through required attendance things before my team carefully stayed to the back of the room where we could slink away and get back to business.
I'm sure the next methodology will wrap itself around AI, spin off
training companies, and mostly fail to deliver on the promises.
The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by
ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
the second sentence);
and
2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.
On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by
ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
the second sentence);
and
2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.
Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the library.
One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks, compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'
Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the pointer and if no match, segfault'
I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to
why the first is not always the case.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by
ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per >>> the second sentence);
and
2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.
Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the
library.
One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks,
compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'
Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the
pointer and if no match, segfault'
I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to
why the first is not always the case.
I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the
effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".
Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the pointer and if no match, segfault'
On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced
by
ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
the second sentence);
and
2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.
Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on
the library.
One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated
blocks, compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'
Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with
the pointer and if no match, segfault'
I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as
to why the first is not always the case.
Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(
On 27/11/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by >>>> ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per >>>> the second sentence);
and
2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.
Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the >>> library.
One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks,
compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'
Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the
pointer and if no match, segfault'
I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to >>> why the first is not always the case.
I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the
effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized
search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".
Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that
is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation,
and deleting it from the list.
It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that
was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call
I've encountered that in my time in mil spec aerospace.
A very few people analysed the project and broke it down in to circuit
board specs.
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 10:12:06 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(
Apropos:
https://www.infoworld.com/article/3612364/uspto-petitioned-to-cancel- oracles-javascript-trademark.html
Oracle is doing their usual dog in the manger tactic with ECMAScript.
They acquired the trademark from Sun and never had a part in it. I wonder
if Eich wakes up at 3 AM thinking about what he created? He wasn't happy
with the name in the first place.
I remember we ran a tool
called Purify to spot this type of error, amongst other errors.
Presumably that injected additional code to check reliably.
... my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
blocks.
On 11/25/24 4:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.
Ummmmmm ... CAN use it for general programming ... but it's not super-pleasant :-)
Python is "better" - but not THAT much better.
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 09:27:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:
I remember we ran a tool
called Purify to spot this type of error, amongst other errors.
Presumably that injected additional code to check reliably.
As I understand it, Valgrind does it on your executable without source
code changes.
On 11/27/24 22:06, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 09:27:35 +0000, Pancho wrote:
I remember we ran a tool called Purify to spot this type of error,
amongst other errors.
Presumably that injected additional code to check reliably.
As I understand it, Valgrind does it on your executable without source
code changes.
Yeah, It was 30 years ago, I think Purify modified binary code, not
source code, but I can't really remember. I just remember Purify was brilliant..
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/26/24 4:12 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/25/24 4:56 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/24/24 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:35:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Do kinda pref "{ }" or "begin end" over the dangling depth thing >>>>>>>> ...
get six or eight levels into something and it's a total bitch to >>>>>>>> spot
what's inside what without using comments.
So use the comments. That’s what I do.
Only good way ...
Not a killer, but kinda annoying. The eye doesn't
spot indents nearly was well as hard delimiters.
You can have indents _and_ delimiters for the ultimate in eye
spotting capability! ;)
As I said to Larry, I almost always use just 2-space
indents so deeply-nested stuff doesn't tend to run
off the page margin. Object langs make this even worse
with all the something.something.something.something
sorts of lines.
SOME of the IDEs for Python KINDA help, can spot
nestings fairly well, but I mostly just use nano
in one terminal and do test runs from another.
Something like PyCharm or Visual are kinda overkill
most of the time.
I use four, but since worked as a systems administrator (or what
today be called "devops") I never wrote any programs large enough, or
complicated enough, to run out of line space.
My last big Python app was about 450 lines of code - and
it had LOTS of option switches (TOO many!). Things got
nested really deep sometimes.
Shrank that to about 250 lines of Pascal (the re-think
plus leaving out the options even I never used).
This is what I do not like about power shell. Some of the commands
are way too long to type. I like ls, df, du & co! It would be
horrible to have to type list_files every time.
I kinda have to admit, or brag, that I never used PowerShell.
But yea, shortish generally IS a lot better. Longish is
one reason I hate JS, and then there was COBOL :-)
Haven't done a COBOL app for a long time ... I'll have
to do something ... found a COBOL IDE of sorts somewhere ...
ah, OpenCobolIDE (a PyPy pgm).
Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(
Note that the 250 lines of pascal could be reduced further to 1 line if
you find out the true name of god and use that instead!
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 01:39:34 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/25/24 4:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.
Ummmmmm ... CAN use it for general programming ... but it's not
super-pleasant :-)
It attracts the kind of people who might have used BASIC before.
Python is "better" - but not THAT much better.
It’s a whole lot better. Nearly all of the language features are very carefully thought out. The result is that the core remains compact, yet is versatile, which is why you get so many library modules built on top of it
-- because the language makes such modules very powerful.
On 11/27/24 5:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 01:39:34 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/25/24 4:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.
Ummmmmm ... CAN use it for general programming ... but it's not
super-pleasant :-)
It attracts the kind of people who might have used BASIC before.
I never really saw it as so "BASIC-like" ...
In any case, best suited for web pages. That is its natural
environment. I've writ some web stuff with kinda a lot of PHP in
them. The most fun spawned a TEMPORARY mirror of the site in a
TEMPORARY subdir that'd expire after 15 minutes of non-use. That way
there was no permanent link hacks could keep attacking. The mother
site was kept entirely off the webroot.
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 22:46:17 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/27/24 5:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 01:39:34 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/25/24 4:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
There is a “new BASIC” that fits that description: it’s PHP.
Ummmmmm ... CAN use it for general programming ... but it's not
super-pleasant :-)
It attracts the kind of people who might have used BASIC before.
I never really saw it as so "BASIC-like" ...
The mentality of it.
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were a southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an essential food group.
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 22:46:17 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
In any case, best suited for web pages. That is its natural
environment. I've writ some web stuff with kinda a lot of PHP in
them. The most fun spawned a TEMPORARY mirror of the site in a
TEMPORARY subdir that'd expire after 15 minutes of non-use. That way
there was no permanent link hacks could keep attacking. The mother
site was kept entirely off the webroot.
https://www.nusphere.com/php/php_history.htm
Like Eich, Lerdorf probably didn't expect his Personal Home Page to
spread.
Oh, are you USA ? A "Stuckeys" was a kinda low- class crappy
fast-food joint, usually located at the exits on interstate highways.
Tiny burnt burgers. The toilets were nefarious .......
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make
allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that
is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation,
and deleting it from the list.
It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that
was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call
Yes, but now you burden /every/ free(ptr) call with an O(N) linear
search of all allocated blocks to determine if "ptr" has been
previously freed.
Well, there IS a certain v0.5 feel about it
But it still Gets It Done.
I like PHP because it makes the gigabuck SERVER do most of the work,
unlike JS.
Once wrote a short JS with lots of deep math/trig and string stuff in
it - just a few lines - to punish people who didn't know the
password. All the cooling fans would rev up to full almost instantly
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 27/11/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by >>>>> ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
the second sentence);
and
2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.
Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the >>>> library.
One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks, >>>> compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'
Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the >>>> pointer and if no match, segfault'
I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to >>>> why the first is not always the case.
I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the
effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized
search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".
Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make
allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that
is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation,
and deleting it from the list.
It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that
was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call
Yes, but now you burden /every/ free(ptr) call with an O(N) linear
search of all allocated blocks to determine if "ptr" has been
previously freed. With today's CPU's one could be excused in thinking
"not such a big deal". In the days of a PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 CPU
performance levels, doing an O(N) linear search, on every call to free,
to catch something the programmer was never supposed to do in the first place, was likely viewed as too much overhead.
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 11:58:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I've encountered that in my time in mil spec aerospace.
A very few people analysed the project and broke it down in to circuit
board specs.
I worked on one DoD project in my career. I got bored and wandered off
after 6 months of wrangling about the spec. About a year later I talked to one of the programmers who had stayed and asked if they'd written any code yet. "Nope."
So much blood, sweat, tears, and ego involvement is involved in specs like that it will be implemented even if it becomes apparent it isn't going to work. Fiascos like the F-35 don't surprise me at all.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced
by
ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per >>> the second sentence);
and
2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.
Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on
the library.
One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated
blocks, compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'
Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with
the pointer and if no match, segfault'
I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as
to why the first is not always the case.
You can absolutely write an allocator that does that if you want. You’ll pay for it in performance and memory usage, but it might well be
worthwhile in a given application.
However, it doesn’t fully solve the problem. Suppose the sequence of operations (with lots going on between) happens to look like this:
int *p = malloc(xxx);
// ...
free(p);
// ...
int *q = malloc(yyy);
// ...
free(p); // double free of p
// ...
*q = 1;
If p!=q then a tracking allocator like you envisage would spot the
error. But if it happens that p=q (which is entirely possible) then the tracking allocator won’t notice the problem. The program will start to misbehave seriously when the it access the (now freed) memory pointed to
be q.
Nulling out pointers after freeing them, as suggested elsewhere helps,
but that depends on perfect play by human programmers, not something you
want to rely on.
To go further you need to track not just the status of each allocation
but the provenance of the pointers to. valgrind does that (and a lot
more) but the performance penalty means it’s only practical to use for testing and debugging.
Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(
"Rage" is MY reaction :-)
Just NO EXCUSE to make it THAT horrible.
Note that the 250 lines of pascal could be reduced further to 1 line if you >> find out the true name of god and use that instead!
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down
the commode at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were a southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an essential food group.
On 27/11/2024 18:58, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:How else would you do it?
On 27/11/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by >>>>>> ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
the second sentence);
and
2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.
Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the >>>>> library.
One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks, >>>>> compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'
Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the >>>>> pointer and if no match, segfault'
I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to >>>>> why the first is not always the case.
I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the
effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized >>>> search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".
Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make
allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that
is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation,
and deleting it from the list.
It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that >>> was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call
Yes, but now you burden /every/ free(ptr) call with an O(N) linear
search of all allocated blocks to determine if "ptr" has been
previously freed. With today's CPU's one could be excused in thinking
"not such a big deal". In the days of a PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 CPU
performance levels, doing an O(N) linear search, on every call to free,
to catch something the programmer was never supposed to do in the first
place, was likely viewed as too much overhead.
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode >>> at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy
it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a
hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 27/11/2024 18:58, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:How else would you do it?
On 27/11/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 27/11/2024 01:48, Rich wrote:
The only two guarantees given in that paragraph are:
1) if ptr was returned by one of the malloc's, the space referenced by >>>>>>> ptr is deallocated (albeit only for the first call of free(ptr), per
the second sentence);
and
2) if ptr is NULL, nothing occurs.
Exactly. The result of anything else is implementation dependent on the >>>>>> library.
One might write a free that says 'look at our list of allocated blocks, >>>>>> compare with the pointer and if no match do nothing'
Or one that says 'look at our list of allocated block compare with the >>>>>> pointer and if no match, segfault'
I am not au fait with the internal of 'free()' so I cannot comment as to >>>>>> why the first is not always the case.
I can hazzard a guess. The time taken to perform the search, or the >>>>> effort needed to maintain an "index structure" to perform an optimized >>>>> search, plus the time for the optimized search, was felt to be
excessive and wasteful when the "spec" says "don't ever do this".
Look I don't know how memory allocation and de allocation is done
but my instinct would be to hold a long list of pointers to allocated
blocks. Possibly in order of the allocated addresses, which would make >>>> allocating a new block a case of finding the first gap in the list that >>>> is [required blocksize] and inserting a new list element, and de
allocation a question of searching the list for a matching allocation, >>>> and deleting it from the list.
It would be trivial to get to the end of the list and discover that that >>>> was the end, and, with no match found simply ignore the free call
Yes, but now you burden /every/ free(ptr) call with an O(N) linear
search of all allocated blocks to determine if "ptr" has been
previously freed. With today's CPU's one could be excused in thinking
"not such a big deal". In the days of a PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 CPU
performance levels, doing an O(N) linear search, on every call to free,
to catch something the programmer was never supposed to do in the first
place, was likely viewed as too much overhead.
For performance reasons you'd want to maintain some index data
structure that can be searched faster than O(N), which becomes
additional overhead for the malloc's and for free. As well, as Richard
K. also says in his posts, just that is not enough to track and ignore
all double free operations. Which adds on even more overhead.
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 10:12:06 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(
Apropos:
https://www.infoworld.com/article/3612364/uspto-petitioned-to-cancel-
oracles-javascript-trademark.html
Oracle is doing their usual dog in the manger tactic with ECMAScript.
They acquired the trademark from Sun and never had a part in it. I wonder
if Eich wakes up at 3 AM thinking about what he created? He wasn't happy
with the name in the first place.
Ahh Oracle... a perfect example of what the maffia would look like if they were a corporation. ;)
On 28/11/2024 10:04, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode >>>> at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were a >>> southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>> essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to
sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy it. >> Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a hot
summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
Sadly with age I have had to abandon nearly all starch, as well as nearly all vegetables. I have more than one condition kept in check my diets so strict they make life increasingly miserable...it's now more a question of what I can eat, rather than what I can't.
Life's a bitch
And then you die.
On 2024-11-27, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 10:12:06 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh yes... forgot about javascript. It makes me cry when I see it. =(
Apropos:
https://www.infoworld.com/article/3612364/uspto-petitioned-to-cancel-
oracles-javascript-trademark.html
Oracle is doing their usual dog in the manger tactic with ECMAScript.
They acquired the trademark from Sun and never had a part in it. I wonder >>> if Eich wakes up at 3 AM thinking about what he created? He wasn't happy >>> with the name in the first place.
Ahh Oracle... a perfect example of what the maffia would look like if they >> were a corporation. ;)
I saw a wonderful tongue-in-cheek article years ago (and unfortunately can't find it again). ("Your CPU will melt! And you'll PAY us for the privilege!")
It ended with the words:
We have a hammer.
Your problem is a nail.
But [PHP] still Gets It Done.
I like PHP because it makes the gigabuck SERVER do
most of the work, unlike JS.
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode >>> at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy
it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a
hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:22:36 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Oh, are you USA ? A "Stuckeys" was a kinda low- class crappy
fast-food joint, usually located at the exits on interstate highways.
Tiny burnt burgers. The toilets were nefarious .......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuckey's
It's been over 60 years but I don't think they ever had fast food back
then. They specialized in pecans and had just the nuts, shelled or
unshelled, but had a lot of nut based candies that I would consider sickly sweet these days. That's in keeping with southern tastes. They favor sweet tea that a hummingbird would consider overkill.
They also had novelty gifts. I remember one was a small box labeled Pecans that had two miniature milk cans when you opened it. The humor is obscure unless you understand the difference between the northern and southern pronunciations.
On the '50s and into the '60s it was a different world south of the Mason Dixon line. When we visited my brother at Huntsville AL in '58 it was
still segregated. Wernher von Braun and his crew must have found it
ironical.
On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode >>>> at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were a >>> southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>> essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to
sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy it. >> Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a hot
summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......
"Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.
Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...
On 28/11/2024 10:04, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the
commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>> essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive
to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20
cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
Sadly with age I have had to abandon nearly all starch, as well as
nearly all vegetables. I have more than one condition kept in check my
diets so strict they make life increasingly miserable...it's now more a question of what I can eat, rather than what I can't.
Life's a bitch
And then you die.
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:56:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, there IS a certain v0.5 feel about it
But it still Gets It Done.
I like PHP because it makes the gigabuck SERVER do most of the work,
unlike JS.
Once wrote a short JS with lots of deep math/trig and string stuff in
it - just a few lines - to punish people who didn't know the
password. All the cooling fans would rev up to full almost instantly
I used CGI and FastCGI mostly, and then Node.js eventually. The server
side js did a little work but with the Esri JavaScript API the client side did most of the heavy lifting. The backend served up GeoJSON but other processes created it. The most work was querying the database for
historical information in a couple of applications like crime analysis.
On 27/11/2024 18:32, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
You can absolutely write an allocator that does that if you
want. You’ll
pay for it in performance and memory usage, but it might well be
worthwhile in a given application.
However, it doesn’t fully solve the problem. Suppose the sequence of
operations (with lots going on between) happens to look like this:
int *p = malloc(xxx);
// ...
free(p);
// ...
int *q = malloc(yyy);
// ...
free(p); // double free of p
// ...
*q = 1;
If p!=q then a tracking allocator like you envisage would spot the
error. But if it happens that p=q (which is entirely possible) then the
tracking allocator won’t notice the problem. The program will start to
misbehave seriously when the it access the (now freed) memory pointed to
be q.
Ah. But I cant see how to prevent that unless you give every block a
UID as well.
Which isn't a huge overhead.
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 02:56:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But [PHP] still Gets It Done.
Unfortunately, the fact that it is architected around the HTTP request/ response model limits its flexibility somewhat. For example, it makes it awkward to handle WebSocket connections.
For contrast, Python has an event-driven specification called ASGI, which deals with both regular HTTP connections and WebSockets in a single framework. And it also handles long-running background processes as well (another thing PHP tends to have trouble with).
I like PHP because it makes the gigabuck SERVER do
most of the work, unlike JS.
Heard of Node JS?
On 28/11/2024 14:19, Rich wrote:
For performance reasons you'd want to maintain some index data
structure that can be searched faster than O(N), which becomes
additional overhead for the malloc's and for free. As well, as Richard
K. also says in his posts, just that is not enough to track and ignore
all double free operations. Which adds on even more overhead.
Its not hard to do a binary search on an ordered linked list, and its
a piece if piss to insert to make it ordered
The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
End result: happy patient!
It's still a different world south of the line 🙂
Not Von Braun's America, but still "different".
I'd say "more real" as opposed to the yankee
intellectual/ideological abstractions.
Oh well, all of that is taking full power in a
couple of months.
On 11/28/24 1:22 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/11/2024 10:04, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the
commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar
as an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive
to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20
cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
Sadly with age I have had to abandon nearly all starch, as well as
nearly all vegetables. I have more than one condition kept in check my
diets so strict they make life increasingly miserable...it's now more
a question of what I can eat, rather than what I can't.
Life's a bitch
And then you die.
Well ... you can drag that last bit out quite a bit
by not eating 5000 cals of sugar/equivs every day :-)
Ah, "Buffy" is over ... time to go to bed. Clearly
I'm bio-fixed on a "night shift" cycle. Screw the
fuckin' self-superior dawn-2-dusk farmers, too 1700s :-)
On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the
commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>> essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive
to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20
cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......
"Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.
Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...
Kinda surprised there's no real "Web-PY" scripting app (kinda aside
from Flask) to compete head to head with PHP for server-side.
On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:
The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
End result: happy patient!
Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too much starch.
I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks
are happy with the results.
Statins are fucking dreadful.
Even in my high-cal youth it was NOT like this and we DID suck down a
LOT of "junk" - ALWAYS huge bags of chips and chocolate cookies and
cheeze puffs and greasy salted bits. NOT sure what the hell has
happened.
You'd almost think some secret bio-warfare ingredient was introduced
like 25 years ago ......
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though
The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
End result: happy patient!
My last org did use ESRI - there has to be a muta-acronym
for "rip off LOTS of money because we CAN".
Took one or two classes - but the product was changing so fast they
were just useless.
Oddly, my previous boss and I wanted to WRITE a GIS way back in the
mid 80s ... but the subject was too deep and we never really got to
it.
On 2024-11-29, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:
The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol, >>> and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
End result: happy patient!
Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too much
starch.
I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks
are happy with the results.
Statins are fucking dreadful.
In what way? I take 10mg of Crestor (rosuvastatin) daily and don't
have any problems. I can even eat grapefruit.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:19:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though
My menu varies between pig and cow with a sheep thrown in every few
months. Sometimes it's pig and cow together since I throw a pound or so of ground pork in my meatloaf.
I was on a fish kick and got tired of it except for pickled herring.
On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They were >>>> a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as an >>>> essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to >>> sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy
it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a
hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......
"Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.
Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though :-)
[Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.
On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:
The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never gonna >> happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead. End
result: happy patient!
Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too much starch.
I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks are happy with the results.
Statins are fucking dreadful.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 10:29:24 +0100, D wrote:
The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
End result: happy patient!
I had my yearly physical Monday and my doctor is happy with my
cholesterol. with the HDL well over 60 mg/dL and LDL toward the low end of the scale. My vegetable intake is mostly garlic and onions, fried in olive oil, with two eggs and a slice of cheese. I did eat a yam yesterday with a slice of rib roast. Last week I made a batch of Jaegerkohl which at
least has cabbage along with the bacon, kielbasa, and ground beef. Onion
and garlic, of course, and I even threw in a couple of carrots.
I don't dislike vegetables but I seldom remember to buy any. Except onions and garlic. Are you seeing a pattern here?
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:19:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though
My menu varies between pig and cow with a sheep thrown in every few
months. Sometimes it's pig and cow together since I throw a pound or so of ground pork in my meatloaf.
I was on a fish kick and got tired of it except for pickled herring.
On 29/11/2024 18:57, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 13:19:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though
My menu varies between pig and cow with a sheep thrown in every few
months. Sometimes it's pig and cow together since I throw a pound or so of >> ground pork in my meatloaf.
Excellent. I'll be round later.
Yup. I am not massively keen on fish but I like the pickled herrings and smoked mackerrel, seafood and the occasional tuna, swordfish or salmon steak. And sea bream.
I was on a fish kick and got tired of it except for pickled herring.
Don't you shoot bambies for the pot? best meat ever.
On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:
The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in
cholesterol, and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him
that's never gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some
medicine instead. End result: happy patient!
Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too much starch.
I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks
are happy with the results.
Statins are fucking dreadful.
Don't you shoot bambies for the pot? best meat ever.
Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.
We will study Jordan Petersons future health with great interest!
You are a wise man, and also, a skilled cook!
I once defined New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have
your heart in the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your
hand is in someone else's pocket..
On 29/11/2024 09:24, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/28/24 1:22 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/11/2024 10:04, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>> commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar
as an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly
sensitive to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink
15-20 cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
Sadly with age I have had to abandon nearly all starch, as well as
nearly all vegetables. I have more than one condition kept in check
my diets so strict they make life increasingly miserable...it's now
more a question of what I can eat, rather than what I can't.
Life's a bitch
And then you die.
Well ... you can drag that last bit out quite a bit
by not eating 5000 cals of sugar/equivs every day :-)
I cant even hack 50g of wheat starch in a day.
Ah, "Buffy" is over ... time to go to bed. Clearly
I'm bio-fixed on a "night shift" cycle. Screw the
fuckin' self-superior dawn-2-dusk farmers, too 1700s :-)
I recorded the whole damn series when I finally got to watch it two
years ago.
I wonder if I'll ever watch it again.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 04:24:48 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Even in my high-cal youth it was NOT like this and we DID suck down a
LOT of "junk" - ALWAYS huge bags of chips and chocolate cookies and
cheeze puffs and greasy salted bits. NOT sure what the hell has
happened.
You'd almost think some secret bio-warfare ingredient was introduced
like 25 years ago ......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 10:29:24 +0100, D wrote:
The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in cholesterol,
and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him that's never
gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some medicine instead.
End result: happy patient!
I had my yearly physical Monday and my doctor is happy with my
cholesterol. with the HDL well over 60 mg/dL and LDL toward the low end of the scale. My vegetable intake is mostly garlic and onions, fried in olive oil, with two eggs and a slice of cheese. I did eat a yam yesterday with a slice of rib roast. Last week I made a batch of Jaegerkohl which at
least has cabbage along with the bacon, kielbasa, and ground beef. Onion
and garlic, of course, and I even threw in a couple of carrots.
I don't dislike vegetables but I seldom remember to buy any. Except onions and garlic. Are you seeing a pattern here?
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>> commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar
as an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly
sensitive to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink
15-20 cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......
"Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.
Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though :-)
Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me
vegetables sometimes. That makes me cry.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
[Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.
There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Kinda surprised there's no real "Web-PY" scripting app (kinda aside
from Flask) to compete head to head with PHP for server-side.
https://data-flair.training/blogs/django-vs-php/
https://devtechnosys.com/insights/tech-comparison/flask-vs-php/
https://blog.jetbrains.com/pycharm/2023/11/django-vs-flask-which-is-the- best-python-web-framework/
FastAPI is gaining popularity. Like it says it's faster than django or
flask and is very nice for REST work. You can create a REST interface with django but it's an uphill fight.
PHP has momentum and plenty of legacy sites but as Python becomes the
Swiss Army knife I think it owns the future.
On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
[Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.
There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.
Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.
Of course to do server-side the server has to have a Py/'webPY'
interpreter running.
It was a *clever* series - well-writ with competent actors. Somewhere
between 'horror' and comedy with a good dose of 'quirk' and some
'soap opera' thrown in.
Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.
Of course to do server-side the server has to have a Py/'webPY'
interpreter running. They all have PHP, 'legacy', but the server
lords REALLY don't love having to take the burden so I wonder how
many would install a Py equiv.
Onions + Garlic + Cabbage .... wow, you Really REALLY vont to be
alone
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:
Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or
leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.
At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex. Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then I'd as soon feed the breast meat to the cat.
On 11/29/24 13:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/11/2024 09:29, D wrote:
The other week the doctor called him out for an increase in
cholesterol, and suggested a more vegetarian diet. My father told him
that's never gonna happen, so the doctor sighed and gave him some
medicine instead. End result: happy patient!
Ignorant doctors. Cholesterol is made by the body to deal with too
much starch.
I get a fortnightly injection for that. Self administered. The quacks
are happy with the results.
Statins are fucking dreadful.
I've taken simvastatin for over 25 years, and BP meds. I don't think I
have side effects.
The doctor says I should have a yearly review. In the review, the
clinician asks do you have side effects? I say how would I know what
are side effects and what is unrelated. The review clinician skips on,
saying side effects normally happen in the first few months. Next review
I'm going prepared. I'm going to make a long list of every ache and pain
I have.
Are you sure Cholesterol is due to starch? Last time I looked it was saturated fats, and possibly starch. To be fair I've never been able to
work out what affects me. Benecol spread, stanols, seem to help, but I
have that on bread.
I think, maybe, stress made it worse.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:42:32 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
It was a *clever* series - well-writ with competent actors. Somewhere
between 'horror' and comedy with a good dose of 'quirk' and some
'soap opera' thrown in.
'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'? I made it through a couple of episodes but couldn't stand Gellar.
I did like the 'Angel' spinoff -except when Gellar
did a cameo. I watched stuff on Netflix DVDs so the order wasn't the same
as when the series were made. I'd seen Boreanaz in 'Bones' and Acker in 'Person of Interest' and liked them, prior to 'Angel'. I knew Borenaz was
in it but as soon as I heard her voice I knew it was Root even though I didn't know her name.
Sometimes the order gets strange. In 'Deadwood' Gerald McRaney's character was the one you most wanted to see fed to the hogs, but turned up as a
good guy in 'Jericho'.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:50:54 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.
Those are the ones I like, with one exception. Spinach, broccoli, brussels sprouts, and asparagus are fine. I'm reading a historical series abut a
band of vikings sailing around and raising hell and the author mentions
kale several times. I've no idea if that is historically correct but I got
a bunch of kale to try. You've got to be a cow to appreciate that, or
maybe a deer. I threw most of it out on the lawn and it was gone in the morning. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the cats or raccoons.
otoh my brother was relieved when they put him on rat poison and he didn't have to eat broccoli anymore. He said it was the only thing where he
agreed with GHW Bush.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:16:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Of course to do server-side the server has to have a Py/'webPY'
interpreter running. They all have PHP, 'legacy', but the server
lords REALLY don't love having to take the burden so I wonder how
many would install a Py equiv.
Well, when you're running the server... Ubuntu seems to come with Apache but I think the only thing worse is IIS. http://localhost on Fedora comes
up with a Fedora webserver page. Apparently it's Apache with some secret sauce.
Back when LAMP was a big thing I stopped at the 'L'. I don't like Apache, MySQL, or PHP.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:51:03 +0100, D wrote:
We will study Jordan Petersons future health with great interest!
Mental? Did he mix in statins with the SSRIs, benzos, and ketamine?
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:52:16 +0100, D wrote:
You are a wise man, and also, a skilled cook!
I was taught well. Both of my parents worked so whoever got home first started supper. One summer day when all the windows were open my mother walked down the driveway and yelled "Jesus Christ, Nels! Not onions
again!" When in doubt, peel an onion.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:42:32 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
It was a *clever* series - well-writ with competent actors. Somewhere
between 'horror' and comedy with a good dose of 'quirk' and some
'soap opera' thrown in.
'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'? I made it through a couple of episodes but couldn't stand Gellar. I did like the 'Angel' spinoff -except when Gellar
did a cameo. I watched stuff on Netflix DVDs so the order wasn't the same
as when the series were made. I'd seen Boreanaz in 'Bones' and Acker in 'Person of Interest' and liked them, prior to 'Angel'. I knew Borenaz was
in it but as soon as I heard her voice I knew it was Root even though I didn't know her name.
Sometimes the order gets strange. In 'Deadwood' Gerald McRaney's character was the one you most wanted to see fed to the hogs, but turned up as a
good guy in 'Jericho'.
On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>>> commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They >>>>>> were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as >>>>>> an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to >>>>> sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy >>>>> it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a >>>>> hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......
"Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.
Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though :-)
Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me vegetables >> sometimes. That makes me cry.
My granny despised "rabbit food" - stuck to the N.Euro
boiled meat/potatoes almost entirely. Lived well to 99.
I inherited her taste buds.
Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 23:31:33 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Onions + Garlic + Cabbage .... wow, you Really REALLY vont to be
alone
For some reason I dug up Steve Earle's 'Me and the Eagle' on youtube
tonight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWqKNQEQTw
"Some mornings will find me up above the timberline
Lonesome don't seem like much once you're this high
When it's all said and done I usually find
Me and the eagle are of the same mind
Now when I was young I took me a wife
But she never took to the high country life
So now I'm alone I don't really mind
But her name echoes down form the canyon sometimes"
When I talked to my ex Wednesday she said she'd lined up her favorite restaurant to have a turkey dinner delivered at 12 noon by DoorDash or something. No cabbage or onions and she told them to skip the wine and pumpkin pie. (Type I diabetes) My and the eagle don't care for the big
city life.
On 30/11/2024 00:12, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:Factory farm reared chicken is pretty tasteless. Round here get a lot of game birds so I eat those. Also farmed duck is ok.
Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or >>> leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.
At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean
protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex.
Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then I'd as >> soon feed the breast meat to the cat.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:
Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or >>> leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.
At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean
protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex.
Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then
I'd as
soon feed the breast meat to the cat.
I feel your pain and I am in the same situation! =( There is nothing in
terms of meat, that I like less than chicken breast. Dry, rubbery and
sticks in my throat. Yuck!
Chicken thighs and chicken wings I can still eat though, as long as they
come with a good sauce and are crispy on the outside.
Oh, and chicken breast I can eat if it is shredded to tiny pieces in a chicken soup. Then it works!
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 00:12, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:Factory farm reared chicken is pretty tasteless. Round here get a lot
Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take
it or
leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.
At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean
protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag
reflex.
Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then
I'd as
soon feed the breast meat to the cat.
of game birds so I eat those. Also farmed duck is ok.
Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but
never had the chance to try.
On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 00:12, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:Factory farm reared chicken is pretty tasteless. Round here get a lot of >>> game birds so I eat those. Also farmed duck is ok.
Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or >>>>> leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.
At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean >>>> protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex. >>>> Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then I'd >>>> as
soon feed the breast meat to the cat.
Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but never >> had the chance to try.
Illegal here unless you are the king!
Tried goose? That's expensive and full of grease but nice tasting.
And if wild and shot (Canada goose) very very good.
On 30/11/2024 10:52, D wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 22:53:35 +0100, D wrote:
Sadly the wife cooks chicken for lunch, and in my case it is "take it or >>>> leave it", so I'll reluctantly take it.
At one point boneless, skinless chicken breasts were inexpensive clean
protein. I ate enough of them that they now trigger sort of a gag reflex. >>> Every few months I'll get a CostCo rotisserie chicken but even then I'd as >>> soon feed the breast meat to the cat.
I feel your pain and I am in the same situation! =( There is nothing in
terms of meat, that I like less than chicken breast. Dry, rubbery and
sticks in my throat. Yuck!
Chicken thighs and chicken wings I can still eat though, as long as they
come with a good sauce and are crispy on the outside.
Oh, and chicken breast I can eat if it is shredded to tiny pieces in a
chicken soup. Then it works!
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste
I learnt to tolerate [Apache, MySQL and PHP] as sufficient for the job I wanted them to do.
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
enjoy chicken breast.
The pie idea is good though!
No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
where I live in eastern europe. =(
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:19:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
[Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.
There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.
Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.
Really? Which ones would you describe that way? Work-arounds for what?
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:54:31 +0100, D wrote:
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
enjoy chicken breast.
It will probably taste like -- chicken.
The pie idea is good though!
A pie would be a lot of work but it did remind me a chicken a la king. I haven't had it in ages but iirc it was edible.
My goto for tasteless stuff like chicken, tilapia, or rockfish is a
generous dollop of Mae Ploy's curry paste, red, yellow, or green depending
on what's in the reefer and a can of coconut milk.
On 11/30/24 1:22 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:19:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
[Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.
There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.
Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.
Really? Which ones would you describe that way? Work-arounds for what?
Server-side, PHP is about all that's properly supported.
As such, you really won't find any straight-up Python based
server-side web interpreters.
What exists are ALL sort of kludges, some evoking PHP to get things
done.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>> commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They
were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar
as an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly
sensitive to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink
15-20 cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......
"Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.
Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though :-)
Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me
vegetables sometimes. That makes me cry.
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>>>> commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode.
They were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie
without
going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past
sugar as an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly
sensitive to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad
enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink
15-20 cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full. >>>>>
I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......
"Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.
Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though :-)
Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me
vegetables sometimes. That makes me cry.
My granny despised "rabbit food" - stuck to the N.Euro
boiled meat/potatoes almost entirely. Lived well to 99.
I am not surprised! I tell stories like this to my doctor if they are careless enough to propose anything vegetarian. ;)
I inherited her taste buds.
Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.
In a pinch I can eat carrots, onions, cabbage, garlic, cucumber, bell peppers. Leafy greens? Forget it! Also not a fan of potatoes except in
potato pancakes. Pickled vegetables are alright also.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:16:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Of course to do server-side the server has to have a Py/'webPY'
interpreter running. They all have PHP, 'legacy', but the server
lords REALLY don't love having to take the burden so I wonder how
many would install a Py equiv.
Well, when you're running the server... Ubuntu seems to come with Apache but I think the only thing worse is IIS. http://localhost on Fedora comes
up with a Fedora webserver page. Apparently it's Apache with some secret sauce.
Back when LAMP was a big thing I stopped at the 'L'. I don't like Apache, MySQL, or PHP.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:56:30 +0100, D wrote:
No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
where I live in eastern europe. =(
After much pleading I convinced my mother to cook a Christmas goose. Once.
I loved the crispy skin on duck but the goose was beyond the pale.
I could talk her into making stuff I'd read about in some book like
Yorkshire pudding but they were usually one-offs.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:54:31 +0100, D wrote:
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
enjoy chicken breast.
It will probably taste like -- chicken.
The pie idea is good though!
A pie would be a lot of work but it did remind me a chicken a la king. I haven't had it in ages but iirc it was edible.
My goto for tasteless stuff like chicken, tilapia, or rockfish is a
generous dollop of Mae Ploy's curry paste, red, yellow, or green depending
on what's in the reefer and a can of coconut milk.
On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>>> commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They >>>>>> were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as >>>>>> an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive to >>>>> sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad enjoy >>>>> it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 cl on a >>>>> hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full.
I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......
"Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.
Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though :-)
Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me vegetables >> sometimes. That makes me cry.
GAAACK !!! Rabbit-Food Sux.
My granny knew it - yet lived well to 99.
Apparently I inherited her taste buds :-)
Humans quest for MEAT ... red or white ...
fowl or mastodon.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry
the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard
eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
enjoy chicken breast.
The pie idea is good though!
On 11/30/24 5:57 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/29/24 4:50 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/11/2024 08:21, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/28/24 5:04 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:12:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But it was writ in the Magic Crystal - and I lost it down the >>>>>>>>> commode
at a Stuckeys in 1978 ........
It's a wonder I didn't lose more than pascal down the commode. They >>>>>>>> were a
southern thing when I was a kid and could look at a pecan pie without >>>>>>>> going into insulin shock. By the time they spread I was past sugar as >>>>>>>> an
essential food group.
This is interesting! Have you, like me, become increasingly sensitive >>>>>>> to sugar as you grew older?
When I was young, I could drink enormous amounts of Coca Cola nad >>>>>>> enjoy it. Today it is not longer possible. At most, I can drink 15-20 >>>>>>> cl on a hot summer day, and that's about it.
Same with chocolate. I can eat 3-4 small pieces, and then I'm full. >>>>>>
I'm gonna say YES ... mass-quantities as a youth were
totally ok, but after maybe 55 ......
"Metabolic de-rating" perhaps.
Now it's mostly white-meat keto ...
Oh I can eat red meat all right. All meat and all fish.
Not much else though :-)
Be happy! You are not missing anything! My wife tries to feed me
vegetables sometimes. That makes me cry.
My granny despised "rabbit food" - stuck to the N.Euro
boiled meat/potatoes almost entirely. Lived well to 99.
I am not surprised! I tell stories like this to my doctor if they are
careless enough to propose anything vegetarian. ;)
I inherited her taste buds.
Alas the few veggies I could stand - ones most kids HATE -
I can't eat anymore because they have too much vitamin K.
In a pinch I can eat carrots, onions, cabbage, garlic, cucumber, bell
peppers. Leafy greens? Forget it! Also not a fan of potatoes except in
potato pancakes. Pickled vegetables are alright also.
I have an odd genetic mutation - can't eat anything
with vitamin K. That's gonna be for the duration.
Alas most other kinds of rabbit food are almost
entirely STARCH - which is also not good.
Anyway, as I said to another, SPICES can turn a
mostly white-meat keto diet into something not
so dismal. The senses can be fooled - see
savory in what's not very savory.
Oh ... try KFC ... just chill and peel off all
the greasy greasy skin/coating. STILL quite good.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but
never had the chance to try.
Illegal here unless you are the king!
WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my
grand father shot it and it was excellent!
Tried goose? That's expensive and full of grease but nice tasting.
No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
where I live in eastern europe. =(
And if wild and shot (Canada goose) very very good.
I often thought about shooting a canada goose myself. There are 1000s of
them in sweden, and 100s of them pooping in one of my favourite parks. I
do wonder how full of poisons they are though? If they were clean,
trying to kill a bird or two at night would be nice for me, and nice for
the park! ;)
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:54:31 +0100, D wrote:
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
enjoy chicken breast.
It will probably taste like -- chicken.
The pie idea is good though!
A pie would be a lot of work but it did remind me a chicken a la king. I haven't had it in ages but iirc it was edible.
My goto for tasteless stuff like chicken, tilapia, or rockfish is a
generous dollop of Mae Ploy's curry paste, red, yellow, or green depending
on what's in the reefer and a can of coconut milk.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:56:30 +0100, D wrote:
No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
where I live in eastern europe. =(
After much pleading I convinced my mother to cook a Christmas goose. Once.
I loved the crispy skin on duck but the goose was beyond the pale.
I could talk her into making stuff I'd read about in some book like
Yorkshire pudding but they were usually one-offs.
On 11/30/24 8:09 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:54:31 +0100, D wrote:
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The >>> wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
enjoy chicken breast.
It will probably taste like -- chicken.
The pie idea is good though!
A pie would be a lot of work but it did remind me a chicken a la king. I
haven't had it in ages but iirc it was edible.
My goto for tasteless stuff like chicken, tilapia, or rockfish is a
generous dollop of Mae Ploy's curry paste, red, yellow, or green
depending
on what's in the reefer and a can of coconut milk.
Oh well, that's Older Age. Try a generous
sprinkle of Cayenne pepper and maybe a few
other spices. Makes tasteless less tasteless.
It is difficult to get the white-meat keto stuff
to taste like much of anything. I know very much.
But, the diet DOES become necessary. However
there is no reason it has to be gastronomic
atheism, sensory armageddon. It CAN be kinda
pepped-up for a very low price. Learn yer
spices. Peppers, look into mustard-seed ...
On 11/30/24 1:22 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:19:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
[Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.
There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that.
Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.
Really? Which ones would you describe that way? Work-arounds for what?
Server-side, PHP is about all that's properly
supported. The Server-Lords don't like even that,
uses up too many cycles. They'd LIKE to see all
the hard work done on YOUR box instead. That's
what JS does.
As such, you really won't find any straight-up
Python based server-side web interpreters. What
exists are ALL sort of kludges, some evoking
PHP to get things done.
And how much longer for even PHP ?
It's money, it's politics. In the END expect
Joe User to LOSE now that everything is going
back to the old client/$erver model.
Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
away even PHP. Just watch .....
On 01/12/2024 09:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
away even PHP. Just watch .....
I am my own server lord.
That solves everything
...
..or the entity purporting to be Larry Ellison on a random board who
said my ideas were 'interesting' and wanted me to contact him...
Sure Larry. I came floating down the Danube yesterday on a water biscuit...
Who do these people think they are? Who do these people think I am?
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes like chicken'.
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry the >>> bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating >>> worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The
wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to
enjoy chicken breast.
Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same money you could find a better bird to eat.
The pie idea is good though!
Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.
Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.
However some foods are so shit that nothing works.
On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is allowed to eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but
never had the chance to try.
Illegal here unless you are the king!
WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my
grand father shot it and it was excellent!
Really?Tried goose? That's expensive and full of grease but nice tasting.
No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular here
where I live in eastern europe. =(
And if wild and shot (Canada goose) very very good.
I often thought about shooting a canada goose myself. There are 1000s of
them in sweden, and 100s of them pooping in one of my favourite parks. I do >> wonder how full of poisons they are though? If they were clean, trying to
kill a bird or two at night would be nice for me, and nice for the park! ;)
Canada geese just fine. Where I live there is an old moat round a 1000 year old Hall. Its a kind of trick stop for migrating geese on their way to/from Scandinavia
Late friend decided to stand on the approach - geese turn into wind to land there - and got *three* geese with two barrels.
The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.
The other delicacy is seafaring ducks. The ones that feed by the sea. Never expect anything off a duck that lived in a pond, They always taste of mud.
But the ones that live in estuaries are first rate.
On 01/12/2024 09:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
away even PHP. Just watch .....
I am my own server lord.
That solves everything
Except access to commercial websites, which is a minefield of push style marketing.
I actually got sent *in the post* the most extraordinary phishing attempt. At least I assume it was that.
Someone had my full real name - *never* used except on sites allegedly 'secure' - postal address, and had found the only photograph of me on the net - a photo at age 11, thoughtlessly posted by my cousin - and included that with a hand written letter - or one printed to look like hand written - from a sender who allegedly was a girl in Kazakhstan, with a .ru email address.
All with loads of Kazak stamps on. Must have cost a fortune. I should post the email address on line and flood his/her/its mail box.
I can't understand why I would be worth all that trouble...
..or the entity purporting to be Larry Ellison on a random board who said my ideas were 'interesting' and wanted me to contact him...
Sure Larry. I came floating down the Danube yesterday on a water biscuit...
Who do these people think they are? Who do these people think I am?
It's the Internet dude. More Trolls, scamsters, Robots and AI than real people.
Get used to it.
That was literally my first though when I saw the letter combination
KFC... yuck, the coating! But never thought about actually just removing
it, but it does seem like a waste to buy 0.5kg och chicken and removem
0.25 kg of coating.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at
very good prices!
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could
be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very
good prices!
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.
Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.
However some foods are so shit that nothing works.
+1 except I mix my own curry spices.
Of course you can write CGI in any language if you like ...
AFAIK Apache can be configured to use any language for 'active pages' .
PHP is however the default.
The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.
An ancient trick I learned is that you put them close to an industrial strength electro magnet and rip out the bullets. Alternatively you can
but them in an MRI machine. I know in medieval sweden, this is what they
used to do!
Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on any server-side
'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to do all the hard work. In time they're
gonna take away even PHP. Just watch .....
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds involving smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the
meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat
spoil the playing field.
On 2024-12-01, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could
be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very
good prices!
Maybe you could extract snake oil and sell that too.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at
very good prices!
https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu
I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers
to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch
on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
chicken or quite like beef.
On 01/12/2024 08:39, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/30/24 1:22 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:Well thats php.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 00:19:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 11/29/24 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 05:06:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:Yea, sort of, but they seem kinda clunky work-arounds to me.
[Python] isn't REALLY meant for interactive web apps.
There are quite a few frameworks for using Python to do exactly that. >>>>
Really? Which ones would you describe that way? Work-arounds for what?
Server-side, PHP is about all that's properly
supported. The Server-Lords don't like even that,
uses up too many cycles. They'd LIKE to see all
the hard work done on YOUR box instead. That's
what JS does.
Of course you can write CGI in any language if you like, it just gets
harder and more involved.
As such, you really won't find any straight-up
Python based server-side web interpreters. What
exists are ALL sort of kludges, some evoking
PHP to get things done.
AFAIK Apache can be configured to use any language for 'active pages' .
PHP is however the default.
Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is smaller/faster
... but what do you lose ?
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:38:37 +0100, D wrote:
An ancient trick I learned is that you put them close to an industrial
strength electro magnet and rip out the bullets. Alternatively you can
but them in an MRI machine. I know in medieval sweden, this is what they
used to do!
Lead pellets? Since 1988 the US has required non-toxic shot for waterfowl. The cheapest is steel, which would possibly work. The problem is steel doesn't perform too well. The other popular choices are bismuth, which is diamagnetic, and tungsten, which is parmagnetic.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is allowed to >> eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.
On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but >>>>> never had the chance to try.
Illegal here unless you are the king!
WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my
grand father shot it and it was excellent!
Surely no one follows this law? I mean, I am certain there's old cruft and cobwebs in the swedish law book, but no one seriously follows it.
PHP also has OPcache for caching compiled copies of scripts for
performance. I'm not sure if that can be done so transparently with
Python ...
Yes I've done simple CGI scripts in Bash even. Apache and PHP have an
extra link in the form of mod_php. That runs PHP scripts from Apache
without starting a separate process for the interpreter. Apparantly
there was a mod_Python but development was abandoned.
Never heard of! I thought the go to for better yield would be ostrich.
Had no idea! The usenet is fantastic... all these little wonderful
nuggets of information I would never run into on the regular old
internet, without actively looking for it.
On 01/12/2024 09:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
away even PHP. Just watch .....
I am my own server lord.
That solves everything
Except access to commercial websites, which is a minefield of push style marketing.
I actually got sent *in the post* the most extraordinary phishing
attempt. At least I assume it was that.
Someone had my full real name - *never* used except on sites allegedly 'secure' - postal address, and had found the only photograph of me on
the net - a photo at age 11, thoughtlessly posted by my cousin - and
included that with a hand written letter - or one printed to look like
hand written - from a sender who allegedly was a girl in Kazakhstan,
with a .ru email address.
All with loads of Kazak stamps on. Must have cost a fortune. I should
post the email address on line and flood his/her/its mail box.
I can't understand why I would be worth all that trouble...
..or the entity purporting to be Larry Ellison on a random board who
said my ideas were 'interesting' and wanted me to contact him...
Sure Larry. I came floating down the Danube yesterday on a water biscuit...
Who do these people think they are? Who do these people think I am?
It's the Internet dude. More Trolls, scamsters, Robots and AI than real people.
Get used to it.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:14:21 +0100, D wrote:
Never heard of! I thought the go to for better yield would be ostrich.
There was interest in ostrich farming at the same time as emus.
https://www.americanostrichfarms.com/
I think the choice had to do with how much land was available. I think
emus are a little more docile too. Like llamas the industry was
incestuous. The real money is in breeding pairs.
https://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/commercial-ostrich-production
If you can get $12k for a pair of breeders you aren't going to sell them
for ostrich burgers.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is allowed to
On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but >>>>>> never had the chance to try.
Illegal here unless you are the king!
WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my >>>> grand father shot it and it was excellent!
eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.
Surely no one follows this law? I mean, I am certain there's old cruft and >> cobwebs in the swedish law book, but no one seriously follows it.
I imagine that swan-lovers take advantage of it. But a documentary
I watced that visited a swan farm in the UK pointed out that the
law only applies to wild swans, those raised on a farm can be and
are sold and eaten by any old peasant.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at
very good prices!
https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu
I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers
to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch
on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
chicken or quite like beef.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds involving smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the
meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat
spoil the playing field.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:
United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans,
but never had the chance to try.
Illegal here unless you are the king!
WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland,
my grand father shot it and it was excellent!
allowed to eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.
Surely no one follows this law? I mean, I am certain there's old cruft
and cobwebs in the swedish law book, but no one seriously follows it.
Really?Tried goose? That's expensive and full of grease but nice tasting.
No, goose does sound like a good option too! It is very impopular
here where I live in eastern europe. =(
Haven't seen it in the store so far, nor have I heard of anyone eating it.
And if wild and shot (Canada goose) very very good.
I often thought about shooting a canada goose myself. There are 1000s
of them in sweden, and 100s of them pooping in one of my favourite
parks. I do wonder how full of poisons they are though? If they were
clean, trying to kill a bird or two at night would be nice for me,
and nice for the park! ;)
Canada geese just fine. Where I live there is an old moat round a 1000
year old Hall. Its a kind of trick stop for migrating geese on their
way to/from Scandinavia
Late friend decided to stand on the approach - geese turn into wind to
land there - and got *three* geese with two barrels.
Blessings to your friend for reducing the amount of poopers that reach sweden! This is very interesting! I have to talk to an acquaintance who
is a hunter to shoot one. If I find one in the country side, since they
are not shy at all, it should be completely feasible for me to shoot one
with my longbow. A bird the size of a canada goose is super easy to hit
at 10 yards.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/
You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or
curry the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard
eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon.
The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how
it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get
me to enjoy chicken breast.
more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes
like chicken'.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at
very good prices!
Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with
snake protein.
Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same
money you could find a better bird to eat.
Duck should be possible to obtain here. I like duck!
The pie idea is good though!
Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.
Amen!
Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.
However some foods are so shit that nothing works.
There is another method where you make the shit taste shittier, and
thereby the shit cancels out resulting in a less shittier final result!
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:46:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
+1 except I mix my own curry spices.
https://hot-thai-kitchen.com/curry-paste-review/
Thai curry is a little different to Indian curry. There isn't a large
Asian population in this area so items like the shrimp paste would be hard
to source.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:38:37 +0100, D wrote:
An ancient trick I learned is that you put them close to an industrial
strength electro magnet and rip out the bullets. Alternatively you can
but them in an MRI machine. I know in medieval sweden, this is what they
used to do!
Lead pellets? Since 1988 the US has required non-toxic shot for waterfowl. The cheapest is steel, which would possibly work. The problem is steel doesn't perform too well. The other popular choices are bismuth, which is diamagnetic, and tungsten, which is parmagnetic.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:56, D wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:United Kingdom. All swans belong to the crown and only Royalty is allowed to
On 30/11/2024 11:06, D wrote:
Duck and ptarmigans are good! I suspect I would also like swans, but >>>>>> never had the chance to try.
Illegal here unless you are the king!
WTF!? In what medieval country do you live? ;) I had it in iceland, my >>>> grand father shot it and it was excellent!
eat it or serve it, and I think some university colleges.
Surely no one follows this law? I mean, I am certain there's old cruft and >> cobwebs in the swedish law book, but no one seriously follows it.
I imagine that swan-lovers take advantage of it. But a documentary
I watced that visited a swan farm in the UK pointed out that the
law only applies to wild swans, those raised on a farm can be and
are sold and eaten by any old peasant.
On 01/12/2024 19:13, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:Same as ostrich. It's just not very interesting as meat
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at >>> very good prices!
https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu
I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers
to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch
on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
chicken or quite like beef.
There is a huge range of meat (and fungi) that are edible, but so dull or faintly obnoxious that no one does.
Wild hare (jack rabbit) tastes and smells like jockstraps after a hard match. By the time you have got rid of that flavour all the other flavour has gone too.
Same goes for the muddy taste in pond reared carp.
Rabbit is plain dull. But in a stew with bacon and vegetables and plenty of herbs, its not bad
Longbow? yes. Through the wings would pin them.
Blessings to your friend for reducing the amount of poopers that reach
sweden! This is very interesting! I have to talk to an acquaintance who is >> a hunter to shoot one. If I find one in the country side, since they are
not shy at all, it should be completely feasible for me to shoot one with
my longbow. A bird the size of a canada goose is super easy to hit at 10
yards.
On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds involving >> smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the
meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.
Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its muscle that gets *used*
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat
spoil the playing field.
All domesticated species lose flavour.
I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'
We pay a price for cheap meat.
These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has never been better.
Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.
On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:
In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry >>>>> the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating >>>>> worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The >>>> wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it
compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to >>>> enjoy chicken breast.
more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes
like chicken'.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could
be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very
good prices!
Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with snake >> protein.
Edible if you wanted.
Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same money >>> you could find a better bird to eat.
Duck should be possible to obtain here. I like duck!
The pie idea is good though!
Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.
Amen!
Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.
However some foods are so shit that nothing works.
There is another method where you make the shit taste shittier, and thereby >> the shit cancels out resulting in a less shittier final result!
I bought some rabbit sausage the other week, and it tasted like
tasteless chicken sausage. Perhaps a little less smooth texture. It
wasn't bad, but definitely not something to write home about either.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills-
hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/
You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.
I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a clue.
In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on her
head
I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky.
It wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.
One tends to avoid eating such.
Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds
involving
smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the
meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.
Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its
muscle that gets *used*
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat
spoil the playing field.
All domesticated species lose flavour.
I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I
asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you
use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'
We pay a price for cheap meat.
These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has
never been better.
Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.
Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They roam
and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world!
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
On 26 Nov 2024 19:31:56 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Early C++ was pretty awful. I understand iterators and other arcane
bits have been cleaned up a lot but I have no need to use general C++.
Arduino, Pico, and other microcontrollers use C/C++ but it's a limited
subset of C++.
Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with
C++.
On 02/12/2024 14:03, D wrote:
I bought some rabbit sausage the other week, and it tasted like tasteless
chicken sausage. Perhaps a little less smooth texture. It wasn't bad, but
definitely not something to write home about either.
I think that is actually the perfect summary.
I've had it served as a stew with plenty of herbs and either smoked bacon or sausage, and its OK.
Curried a wild one, once. OK.
But I wouldn't go rushing out to buy it.
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills-
hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/
You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.
I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a clue. >>>
In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on her head >>>
I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky. It
wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.
One tends to avoid eating such.
Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
Not bunnies
Eaten pheasant and deer
Both V good
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they
cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds
involving
smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the >>>> meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck.
Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its muscle >>> that gets *used*
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat >>>> spoil the playing field.
All domesticated species lose flavour.
I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I asked >>> what it was 'wild baby pig'.
We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you use?' >>> He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'
We pay a price for cheap meat.
These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has never
been better.
Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.
Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They roam and >> eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world!
Well the Welsh would argue with you there.
But I would expect Icelandic to be good
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:06:56 +0100, D wrote:
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
There is a diner in Utah that caters to truckers. A sign behind the
counter says 'You kill it, we grill it'
Harvesting roadkill in this state is legal with one provision. You can't field dress the animal by the side of the road and have to take the whole thing and dress it at home.
The closest I've come is skinning a mink I hit. That process is enough to convince you mink isn't edible.
Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with
C++.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:02:09 -0800, John Ames wrote:
On 26 Nov 2024 19:31:56 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Early C++ was pretty awful. I understand iterators and other arcane
bits have been cleaned up a lot but I have no need to use general C++.
Arduino, Pico, and other microcontrollers use C/C++ but it's a limited
subset of C++.
Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with
C++.
They were a real improvement. Commenting out a block that already had a comment was painful. U think it was C99 that also allowed declaring a variable close to where you were using it rather than a laundry list at
the head of a function.
Java, whatever else you want to say about it, is equally mediocre on any platform.
On 2024-12-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:02:09 -0800, John Ames wrote:
On 26 Nov 2024 19:31:56 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Early C++ was pretty awful. I understand iterators and other arcane
bits have been cleaned up a lot but I have no need to use general C++. >>>> Arduino, Pico, and other microcontrollers use C/C++ but it's a limited >>>> subset of C++.
Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with >>> C++.
They were a real improvement. Commenting out a block that already had a
comment was painful. U think it was C99 that also allowed declaring a
variable close to where you were using it rather than a laundry list at
the head of a function.
Best way to comment out stuff like that is to enclose it in a pair of
#if 0
...
#endif
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:11:22 +0100 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize
meat spoil the playing field.
Ahh, ok, yes that makes sense.
See also the Red Delicious, the certified 100% *least* delicious apple
on the planet throughout *any* of our lifetimes...
A mink? But they are tiny! Was there anything left after you removed the skin? I saw a mink once in the country side in sweden. He had a death
wish and tried to run out in front of my car, but I think he survived.
I also saw a weasel in a huge park close to where I live. He was
confused,
because he had his winter clothing on, and it happened to be a day in
the winter without snow, so easy to spot him.
I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.
The downside to C# is that being MS's baby, as far as I've ever seen it pretty much locks you into a Windows environment. Yes, technically Mono
is A Thing That Exists, but it's about as pleasant as the disease with
which it aptly shares a name. Java, whatever else you want to say about
it, is equally mediocre on any platform.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on any server-side
'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to do all the hard work. In time they're
gonna take away even PHP. Just watch .....
I see it going the other way: the only way online services can control
your experience to their liking is if your machine becomes just a dumb terminal with minimal autonomous functionality.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is smaller/faster
... but what do you lose ?
https://dev.to/emiliosp/nodejs-vs-apache-performance-battle-for-the- conquest-of-my-5c4n
I haven't noticed that I lost anything using node.js. nginx is also taking market share from Apache.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 01/12/2024 09:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Anyway ... I don't see the Server-Lords keen on
any server-side 'web-PY'. They want YOUR box to
do all the hard work. In time they're gonna take
away even PHP. Just watch .....
I am my own server lord.
That solves everything
...
..or the entity purporting to be Larry Ellison on a random board who
said my ideas were 'interesting' and wanted me to contact him...
Sure Larry. I came floating down the Danube yesterday on a water biscuit... >>
Who do these people think they are? Who do these people think I am?
Who do they think they are? Con-men (although /they/ might not think
so).
Who do they think you are? A potential mark. The con-man game is all
about the law of averages. Try enough marks, and some will take the
bait and you'll (the con-man) get a payoff. To secure enough payoffs
they have to try a lot of potential marks to find the few that bite.
But they don't 'know' you, anymore than they know the other 1,000
potential marks they tested yesterday.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:21:34 +0100, D wrote:
That was literally my first though when I saw the letter combination
KFC... yuck, the coating! But never thought about actually just removing
it, but it does seem like a waste to buy 0.5kg och chicken and removem
0.25 kg of coating.
But that's the good part! When we were dating my wife and I usually wound
up a KFC sharing a bucket. On one road trip we found the worst KFC outlet
-- in Kentucky. Also, eating KFC while driving isn't recommended. Greasing the steering wheel isn't recommended.
I haven't had it or other deep fried chicken variants in decades. Tastes change.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:02:09 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Ever since C99 added // comments, I have seen zero reason to bother with
C++.
That’s a very peculiar reason to prefer one language over another.
Block/inline comments are handy in languages like C and C++ which don’t permit arguments to be specified by keyword. They let you write code like
const bool ok = dbus_connection_set_watch_functions
(
/*connection =*/ conn,
/*add_function =*/ add_watch,
/*remove_function =*/ remove_watch,
/*toggled_function =*/ toggle_watch,
/*data =*/ NULL,
/*free_data_function =*/ NULL
);
which helps keep long argument lists just that little bit more comprehensible.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:36:18 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.
Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.
However some foods are so shit that nothing works.
US cuisine, particularly that derived from Mexico, is the result of trying
to make meat well past its sell-by date edible.
During my trucking days I delivered a load of dry beans to a well known canned chili maker. The truck at the dock next to me was a reefer full of chicken. As we were being unloaded I talked to the trucker. His sad story
was his refrigeration unit had broken down and the load had defrosted to
the point where the original consignee refused it. The trucking company
had found a way to get rid of the load so it wasn't a complete loss.
I'm not a fan of canned chili and I definitely avoided that brand.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:
In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or
curry the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard
eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking
upon. The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll
see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good
enough to get me to enjoy chicken breast.
be more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles -
'tastes like chicken'.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump
of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this
group could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish,
protein at very good prices!
Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with
snake protein.
Edible if you wanted.
Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just
for the taking!
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 21:40:48 +0100, D wrote:
A mink? But they are tiny! Was there anything left after you removed the
skin? I saw a mink once in the country side in sweden. He had a death
wish and tried to run out in front of my car, but I think he survived.
I had no intention of eating it but after I realized what I had hit I
wanted to tan the hide and give my girlfriend a mink. This was in the '60s before fur became anathema. Mink are in the Mustelidae family which have a
common characteristic of anal scent glands. I never skinned a skunk but I assume it would be a similar experience. Before DNA analysis, skunks were included in the family ultil they were moved to their own.
afaik, there are no skunks in Europe but you're not missing anything.
There are a pair of skunks that show up here sometimes looking for cat
food. Cats are smarter than dogs and ignore them and if I go out on the
deck the skunks politely waddle off.
I also saw a weasel in a huge park close to where I live. He was
confused,
because he had his winter clothing on, and it happened to be a day in
the winter without snow, so easy to spot him.
We have varying hares (snowshoe rabbits) that do the same.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowshoe_hare
One fall I was coming out of the woods on a full moon night when I saw one
in its white phase sitting on a black rock outcropping. He might as well
have had a flashing neon sign. I'd seen some cruising owls so I wished him the best of luck.
I don't know what triggers the change. I was coming down from a 10,000'
peak and there wasn't even any snow there yet.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:19:38 -0800, John Ames wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:11:22 +0100 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize
meat spoil the playing field.
Ahh, ok, yes that makes sense.
See also the Red Delicious, the certified 100% *least* delicious apple
on the planet throughout *any* of our lifetimes...
Yeah, but they last forever...
https://web.archive.org/web/20180824070017/https:/www.nytimes.com/ 2000/11/04/us/perfect-apple-pushed-growers-into-debt.html
The Red Delicious almost wiped out the Washington apple industry. They'd
went all in on the cultivar and when the consumers finally decided the
apple sucks they were in trouble. Did they learn? Hell, no.
https://www.seriouseats.com/how-honeycrisp-apples-went-from-marvel-to- mediocre-8753117
Long story, but they then jumped on Honeycrisps. The apples weren't bred
to grow in Washington's climate nor were they meant to be a year around commodity apple.
On 12/2/24 9:02 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:
In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be >>>>> more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes >>>>> like chicken'.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry >>>>>>> the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard >>>>>>> eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. >>>>>> The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how >>>>>> it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me >>>>>> to enjoy chicken breast.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could >>>> be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very >>>> good prices!
Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with
snake protein.
Edible if you wanted.
Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts which >> plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just for the >> taking!
Yea ... if you're down with locusts :-)
There IS a vocal segment that basically want to FORCE
everybody to eat insects almost entirely as "meat".
Sorry, I like my meat to have had a moo or cluck or
squeal .......
Oh, avoid deer/moose meat now ... there's a lot of
something like Mad Cow prion going around. NO cure
for that. Bear meat - only WELL done as they tend
to be full of parasites (bear meat isn't that good
anyway).
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 02:41:14 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days know ASM.
Very much depends on the communities you hang out in. It's certainly
nowhere near as ubiquitous as it used to be, but quite a few geeks out
there at least dabble with it for fun.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:06:56 +0100, D wrote:
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
There is a diner in Utah that caters to truckers. A sign behind the
counter says 'You kill it, we grill it'
I also saw a weasel in a huge park close to where I live. He was
confused, because he had his winter clothing on, and it happened to be a
day in the winter without snow, so easy to spot him.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- >>>>> hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/
You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.
I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a
clue.
In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on
her head
I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky.
It wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.
One tends to avoid eating such.
Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
Not bunnies
Eaten pheasant and deer
Both V good
I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.
On 12/1/24 4:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is smaller/faster >>> ... but what do you lose ?
https://dev.to/emiliosp/nodejs-vs-apache-performance-battle-for-the-
conquest-of-my-5c4n
I haven't noticed that I lost anything using node.js. nginx is also
taking
market share from Apache.
The alts ARE getting much better. Didn't start out
like that however.
This is not good. I have nothing against the free and voluntary
consumption of insects. If you're into it, be my guest! I am against
forced consumption. But, given the amount of famine and starving
children in africa, it would be interested to see if something could be
done with the locust swarms to get cheap protein for the people.
If I did not have food, I'd welcome insect food over nothing at all. In
fact I've had grass hopper (deep fried) and it was actually quite good.
I also had scorpion when I went to china once, and it tasted like a
crunchy shrimp.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they >>>>>> cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds
involving
smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease
the
meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck. >>>>>
Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its
muscle that gets *used*
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat >>>>> spoil the playing field.
All domesticated species lose flavour.
I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I
asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you
use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'
We pay a price for cheap meat.
These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has
never been better.
Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.
Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They
roam and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world!
Well the Welsh would argue with you there.
But I would expect Icelandic to be good
Absolutely outstanding. Very difficult to get outside of iceland. Do the welsh export a lot of lamb? I would be up for the challenge to compare
it with icelandic.
Pheasant must be what the person who invented the phrase 'bird brained'
had in mind.
They get bred in captivity and released in the autumn to get a bit leery
and them shot around Christmas time, so you get a flood of avian retards waddling round the roads at this time of year.
In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only
thing you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a plluted
lake. That is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central stockholm
where for many decades heavy industry poured out its filth into the
water.
I have eaten this apple and I think it is average. What I find, is that
the worse the apple looks on the surface, often, the better it tastes,
as in, if it's from a local grower or a neighbour, it's not going to
look polished and "industrial" but taste much better. Caveat emptor!
I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
doesn't have too many state laws.
Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.
Anyone eaten squirrel?
On 12/1/24 4:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is
smaller/faster ... but what do you lose ?
https://dev.to/emiliosp/nodejs-vs-apache-performance-battle-for-the-
conquest-of-my-5c4n
I haven't noticed that I lost anything using node.js. nginx is also
taking market share from Apache.
The alts ARE getting much better. Didn't start out like that however.
On 02/12/2024 23:43, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 02:41:14 -0500 "186282@ud0s4.net"I have a friend who has to use it to access certain aspects of the
<186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Note though ... almost NO compu-geeks these days know ASM.
Very much depends on the communities you hang out in. It's certainly
nowhere near as ubiquitous as it used to be, but quite a few geeks out
there at least dabble with it for fun.
latest processors.
I haven't used in in years...
I think at least one did. Apache worked but it used memory like no
tomorrow. There was another one, but I cannot remember its name - that
was very compatible but less memory and faster.
Maybe that WAS Nginx
Oh, beware "chicken nuggets" these days, inflation has cause many to
be more and more adulterated. If it don't have bones, don't
On 02/12/2024 20:38, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- >>>>>> hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/
You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.
I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a clue. >>>>>
In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on her >>>>> head
I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky. It >>>>> wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.
One tends to avoid eating such.
Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
Not bunnies
Eaten pheasant and deer
Both V good
I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.
Well yes. Technically you should not collect anything you have killed, but if the car in front hits it, it is, so to speak, 'fair game'...
Pheasant must be what the person who invented the phrase 'bird brained' had in mind.
They get bred in captivity and released in the autumn to get a bit leery and them shot around Christmas time, so you get a flood of avian retards waddling round the roads at this time of year.
Of course they always take off at the last minute and hit the front grille or valance. Pigeons make it to the windscreen..
I hit one once stopped but couldn't find it. Until 6 weeks later, when I was cleaning the car...
On 02/12/2024 20:40, D wrote:
I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and doesn't have too many state laws.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:06:56 +0100, D wrote:
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
There is a diner in Utah that caters to truckers. A sign behind the
counter says 'You kill it, we grill it'
Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.
I also saw a weasel in a huge park close to where I live. He was confused, >> because he had his winter clothing on, and it happened to be a day in the
winter without snow, so easy to spot him.
Weasel here dont go winter coat. Never enough snow.
Anyone eaten squirrel?
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:45:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
doesn't have too many state laws.
Utah is an odd state. As you drive down one of the canyons you can look across and see the rifle pits that were constructed during the Mormon War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War
My brother lived in Utah for about 20 years. He had his work but his wife referred to it as 'camping out'. In the '60s and '70s everything revolved around the LDS church. If you were what they referred to as a 'gentile'
there wasn't much. The author Ed Abbey quipped that only in Utah can a Jew
be a gentile. It's liberalized quite a bit since then but it's still controlled by the LDS.
Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density
The numbers are somewhat deceiving. The valley along the lake from Ogden
to Provo has about 1.2 million people, greater than the entire population
of Montana.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ut/salt-lake-city/crime#description
Anyone eaten squirrel?
Yes. Tastes like tough chicken.
On 02/12/2024 20:37, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they >>>>>>> cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds
involving
smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease the >>>>>> meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck. >>>>>>
Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its muscle >>>>> that gets *used*
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize meat >>>>>> spoil the playing field.
All domesticated species lose flavour.
I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I asked >>>>> what it was 'wild baby pig'.
We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you >>>>> use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!'
We pay a price for cheap meat.
These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has never >>>>> been better.
Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.
Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They roam >>>> and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world!
Well the Welsh would argue with you there.
But I would expect Icelandic to be good
Absolutely outstanding. Very difficult to get outside of iceland. Do the
welsh export a lot of lamb? I would be up for the challenge to compare it
with icelandic.
Welsh lamb is apparently renowned world wide. It's hard to get even in the UK
I think France imports most of it. French love their lamb, which is odd, since it is almost unheard of in Germany.
Wales is hilly, not to say mountainous, and wet as - a very wet thing. Not as cold as iceland.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:04:56 +0100, D wrote:
I have eaten this apple and I think it is average. What I find, is that
the worse the apple looks on the surface, often, the better it tastes,
as in, if it's from a local grower or a neighbour, it's not going to
look polished and "industrial" but taste much better. Caveat emptor!
Sometimes. There is a neighborhood here called 'Orchard Homes' and there
were orchards down the valley. The whole dream fizzled out both because of the climate and collusion by the railroads to keep them off the market. What's left is mostly McIntosh and are scrubby looking. The cultivar
always was tart. They show up in the stores in large boxes in season but
most of the output goes to cider.
In town people who have a tree are supposed to harvest them to prevent attracting bears. The bears are fond of them.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:13:58 +0100, D wrote:
In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only
thing you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a plluted
lake. That is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central stockholm
where for many decades heavy industry poured out its filth into the
water.
The fishing sites along the river have signs cautioning people to limit
their consumption to once a month and to not eat the pike at all. The
copper mining operation upstream in the 20th century turned the whole
river into a Superfund site. It's not as concentrated as the Berkeley Pit water that kills waterfowl but it's not a pure mountain stream.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 20:38, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>>
The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out. >>>>>>>https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- >>>>>>> hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/
You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.
I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a >>>>>> clue.
In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on
her head
I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the
sky. It wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.
One tends to avoid eating such.
Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and
apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
Not bunnies
Eaten pheasant and deer
Both V good
I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.
Well yes. Technically you should not collect anything you have killed,
but if the car in front hits it, it is, so to speak, 'fair game'...
Touché!
Pheasant must be what the person who invented the phrase 'bird
brained' had in mind.
They get bred in captivity and released in the autumn to get a bit
leery and them shot around Christmas time, so you get a flood of avian
retards waddling round the roads at this time of year.
This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country side house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or both.
So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time to
time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they are
not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 20:37, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much.
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they >>>>>>>> cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds >>>>>>> involving
smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the
grease the
meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like
duck.
Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its
muscle that gets *used*
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize >>>>>>> meat
spoil the playing field.
All domesticated species lose flavour.
I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I >>>>>> asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did
you use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!' >>>>>>
We pay a price for cheap meat.
These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has
never been better.
Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.
Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They
roam and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the
world!
Well the Welsh would argue with you there.
But I would expect Icelandic to be good
Absolutely outstanding. Very difficult to get outside of iceland. Do
the welsh export a lot of lamb? I would be up for the challenge to
compare it with icelandic.
Welsh lamb is apparently renowned world wide. It's hard to get even in
the UK
I think France imports most of it. French love their lamb, which is
odd, since it is almost unheard of in Germany.
Wales is hilly, not to say mountainous, and wet as - a very wet thing.
Not as cold as iceland.
I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:45:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
doesn't have too many state laws.
Utah is an odd state. As you drive down one of the canyons you can look
across and see the rifle pits that were constructed during the Mormon
War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War
My brother lived in Utah for about 20 years. He had his work but his wife
referred to it as 'camping out'. In the '60s and '70s everything revolved
around the LDS church. If you were what they referred to as a 'gentile'
there wasn't much. The author Ed Abbey quipped that only in Utah can a
Jew
be a gentile. It's liberalized quite a bit since then but it's still
controlled by the LDS.
Was he able to have many women when he lived there? ;)
Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density
The numbers are somewhat deceiving. The valley along the lake from Ogden
to Provo has about 1.2 million people, greater than the entire population
of Montana.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ut/salt-lake-city/crime#description
Anyone eaten squirrel?
Yes. Tastes like tough chicken.
If you catch one, make sure you save the tail hair. Apparently,
according to the wife, that's what is used for very high quality paint brushes!
I picked one up once, it was a bit tame. Then it got scared and ploughed furrows in my hands.
I understand now how they climb trees. They come with crampons built in
Mostly they use 12 gauge on them. That seems to kill them ouright
This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country side house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or both.
So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time to
time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they are
not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!
I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:45:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
doesn't have too many state laws.
Utah is an odd state. As you drive down one of the canyons you can look
across and see the rifle pits that were constructed during the Mormon
War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War
My brother lived in Utah for about 20 years. He had his work but his
wife referred to it as 'camping out'. In the '60s and '70s everything
revolved around the LDS church. If you were what they referred to as a
'gentile' there wasn't much. The author Ed Abbey quipped that only in
Utah can a Jew be a gentile. It's liberalized quite a bit since then
but it's still controlled by the LDS.
Was he able to have many women when he lived there?
If you catch one, make sure you save the tail hair. Apparently,
according to the wife, that's what is used for very high quality paint brushes!
A cider... the drink of the gods! But it has to be dry cider. I can't
stand the sugar filled versions.
I had a meeting with the US office of a customer of mine this monday,
and apparently a bear came to visit them for thanks giving in Lake
tahoe. It was not aggressive and after some souting and jumping up and
down, it walked away.
Sounds like a similar situation. Have there ever been initiatives to try
and clean it up?
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 19:13, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:Same as ostrich. It's just not very interesting as meat
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at >>>> very good prices!
https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu
I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers >>> to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch
on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
chicken or quite like beef.
There is a huge range of meat (and fungi) that are edible, but so dull or
faintly obnoxious that no one does.
Wild hare (jack rabbit) tastes and smells like jockstraps after a hard match.
By the time you have got rid of that flavour all the other flavour has gone >> too.
Same goes for the muddy taste in pond reared carp.
Rabbit is plain dull. But in a stew with bacon and vegetables and plenty of >> herbs, its not bad
I bought some rabbit sausage the other week, and it tasted like
tasteless chicken sausage. Perhaps a little less smooth texture. It wasn't bad, but definitely not something to write home about either.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/2/24 9:02 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:
In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or >>>>>>>> curry the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back
yard eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking
upon. The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and
we'll see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not
good enough to get me to enjoy chicken breast.
to be more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles >>>>>> - 'tastes like chicken'.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald
Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for
this group could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell
chicken:ish, protein at very good prices!
Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared
with snake protein.
Edible if you wanted.
Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there,
just for the taking!
Yea ... if you're down with locusts :-)
There IS a vocal segment that basically want to FORCE
everybody to eat insects almost entirely as "meat".
This is not good. I have nothing against the free and voluntary
consumption of insects. If you're into it, be my guest! I am against
forced consumption. But, given the amount of famine and starving
children in africa, it would be interested to see if something could be
done with the locust swarms to get cheap protein for the people.
If I did not have food, I'd welcome insect food over nothing at all. In
fact I've had grass hopper (deep fried) and it was actually quite good.
I also had scorpion when I went to china once, and it tasted like a
crunchy shrimp.
Sorry, I like my meat to have had a moo or cluck or
squeal .......
Oh, avoid deer/moose meat now ... there's a lot of
something like Mad Cow prion going around. NO cure
for that. Bear meat - only WELL done as they tend
to be full of parasites (bear meat isn't that good
anyway).
In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only
thing you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a plluted
lake. That is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central stockholm
where for many decades heavy industry poured out its filth into the water.
It's improving, but still not good enough. If you're 30 minutes away by
boat from the center, then you can start to eat an occasional fish or two.
On 03/12/2024 20:21, D wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 10:45:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I get the impressions Utah doesn't care much about federal laws and
doesn't have too many state laws.
Utah is an odd state. As you drive down one of the canyons you can look
across and see the rifle pits that were constructed during the Mormon War. >>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War
My brother lived in Utah for about 20 years. He had his work but his wife >>> referred to it as 'camping out'. In the '60s and '70s everything revolved >>> around the LDS church. If you were what they referred to as a 'gentile'
there wasn't much. The author Ed Abbey quipped that only in Utah can a Jew >>> be a gentile. It's liberalized quite a bit since then but it's still
controlled by the LDS.
Was he able to have many women when he lived there? ;)
Nice low population density = no need for too much regulation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density >>>
The numbers are somewhat deceiving. The valley along the lake from Ogden >>> to Provo has about 1.2 million people, greater than the entire population >>> of Montana.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ut/salt-lake-city/crime#description
Anyone eaten squirrel?
Yes. Tastes like tough chicken.
If you catch one, make sure you save the tail hair. Apparently, according
to the wife, that's what is used for very high quality paint brushes!
Indeed it is.
I picked one up once, it was a bit tame. Then it got scared and ploughed furrows in my hands.
I understand now how they climb trees. They come with crampons built in
On 03/12/2024 20:16, D wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 20:37, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
Well the Welsh would argue with you there.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 18:47, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 11:18:01 +0100, D wrote:This only applies to domesticated varieties that don't fly much. >>>>>>>
What was wrong with the goose? I saw a video on youtube where they >>>>>>>>> cooked swan, and it was quite tough meat.
There is a reason a lot of the old folk remedies for chest colds >>>>>>>> involving
smearing goose grease on the victim. After rendering out the grease >>>>>>>> the
meat is dark and scanty relative to the size of the goose, like duck. >>>>>>>>
Wild goose is lean and the breast is brown, not white to show its >>>>>>> muscle that gets *used*
I think chickens and turkeys that have have been bred to maximize >>>>>>>> meat
spoil the playing field.
All domesticated species lose flavour.
I was in sardinia and stopped to see a guy barbecuing something. I >>>>>>> asked what it was 'wild baby pig'.
We bought some to eat. It was delicious! I asked 'what herbs did you >>>>>>> use?' He laughed and pointed to the hillside 'all herb. Pig eat!' >>>>>>>
We pay a price for cheap meat.
These days free range pigs abound here in the UK and the pork has >>>>>>> never been better.
Frankly if I am going to eat meat, I want to eat good meat.
Ahh... same methodology used when it comes to icelandic lamb. They roam >>>>>> and eat the herbs on the moutain sides. The best lamb in the world! >>>>>
But I would expect Icelandic to be good
Absolutely outstanding. Very difficult to get outside of iceland. Do the >>>> welsh export a lot of lamb? I would be up for the challenge to compare it >>>> with icelandic.
Welsh lamb is apparently renowned world wide. It's hard to get even in the >>> UK
I think France imports most of it. French love their lamb, which is odd, >>> since it is almost unheard of in Germany.
Wales is hilly, not to say mountainous, and wet as - a very wet thing. Not >>> as cold as iceland.
I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!
Not much on a welsh hillside sadly.
I cant think of any herbs I found when clambering over the hills. Found a force landed helicopter though once.
I was nice up there., You could look DOWN on the jets doing subsonic passes up the valleys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gQz-5HclDo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT7qrYi8R_M
That's all lamb country on the hills.
To steep for crops.
On 03/12/2024 20:18, D wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 20:38, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/12/2024 14:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 20:40, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:42:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>>>
The only poison in them was lead pellets and you spit those out. >>>>>>>>https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/toxic-montana-lakes-kills- >>>>>>>> hundreds-and-maybe-thousands-snow-geese-180961356/
You wouldn't want to dine on one of those geese.
I think the fact that they were dead floating on a lake might be a >>>>>>> clue.
In London a woman was seriously injured by a dead duck falling on her >>>>>>> head
I was standing by my car one day when a pigeons fell out of the sky. >>>>>>> It wasn't dead, but when I came back it had died.
One tends to avoid eating such.
Rabbits that are dying from myxomatosis happen in some years, and >>>>>>> apparently the meat is edible, but not much eats it
What about roadkill? Did you ever try?
Not bunnies
Eaten pheasant and deer
Both V good
I guess the trick is to find fresh roadkill.
Well yes. Technically you should not collect anything you have killed, but >>> if the car in front hits it, it is, so to speak, 'fair game'...
Touché!
Pheasant must be what the person who invented the phrase 'bird brained'
had in mind.
They get bred in captivity and released in the autumn to get a bit leery >>> and them shot around Christmas time, so you get a flood of avian retards >>> waddling round the roads at this time of year.
This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country side
house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or both. So
now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time to time. I
have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they are not shy at
all. Maybe a project for next summer!
I shot one with a .22 air rifle.
It didn't die. I tried to wring its neck.
The head came off, and it still didn't die.
Eventually it died and I plucked it and emptied its insides and ate it. Quite good really.
Mostly they use 12 gauge on them. That seems to kill them ouright
His wife was the daughter of a Baptist minister. I don't think she was
into the polygamy bit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinesdale,_Montana
The AUB is a fundamentalist offspring of the LDS church and the common
belief is that they're polygamists. They don't cause problems so nobody
looks too closely.
The town is at the base of the Bitterroot range and there are hiking
trails on the slopes. One Sunday I met a young man, two young women, and several kids on a trail taking a stroll. They were polite, well dressed
and appeared to be enjoying the nice weather. Not my place to get into
their living arrangements.
If you catch one, make sure you save the tail hair. Apparently,
according to the wife, that's what is used for very high quality paint
brushes!
I skinned out the squirrels and rabbits I shot and tanned the hides. With
a squirrel you can pull the vertebrae out and leave the tail intact. Squirrels have a much thicker hide than rabbits. A tanned rabbit hide is almost like parchment with fur on it, quite supple. A squirrel is very
stiff until you work the hide like you would with buckskin.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 20:55:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I picked one up once, it was a bit tame. Then it got scared and ploughed
furrows in my hands.
I understand now how they climb trees. They come with crampons built in
When I was a kid there was a squirrel that came around at breakfast time looking for a handout. He would hang on the kitchen window screen and look
in until he got his treat. It wasn't really animal abuse but I would give
him bread with peanut butter. He enjoyed the peanut butter but it was
amusing watching him trying to get it off the roof of his mouth.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0
https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure
"Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Due
to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme in a diverse range of landscapes"
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:24:24 +0100, D wrote:
A cider... the drink of the gods! But it has to be dry cider. I can't
stand the sugar filled versions.
https://westerncider.com/ciders-on-tap
I have no first hand knowledge but they have quite a selection. Quite a
dew microbreweries sprung up and these people decided to try cider. I've walked by and it does seem to attract a crowd but not quite as much as the breweries.
It's a little more authentic than a couple of attempts at wineries. Grapes don't do well here so most of the grapes are imported with a few locally grown grapes thrown in. One woman was honest enough to make wine from
stuff that does grow locally like rhubarb. No idea about that wither.
I had a meeting with the US office of a customer of mine this monday,
and apparently a bear came to visit them for thanks giving in Lake
tahoe. It was not aggressive and after some souting and jumping up and
down, it walked away.
One of our people was returning from lunch and took a photo of a bear crossing at a 4-way stop at the corner of our parking lot. The bear seemed
to have a destination although the next street in the direction he was
headed was a major thoroughfare where all the big box stores and fast food places live. Maybe he wanted a taco or maybe he didn't get the memo. 30
years ago that street was a two lane road at the edge of town.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:25:12 +0100, D wrote:
Sounds like a similar situation. Have there ever been initiatives to try
and clean it up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Reservoir_Superfund_Site
There are several projects along the river. The mines were in Butte and
the chief problem there is the Berkeley Pit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit
Prior to the open pit mine the hill is riddled with traditional hard rock mines. When they were active pumps kept the ground water in control. The pumps were turned off in '82 and the pit started to fill.
The ores were smelted in Anaconda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_Smelter_Stack
They realized the problem and the stack was an attempt to get the fumes
out of the valley. It succeeded in that but they also had to buy a lot of land downwind. Even today not much grows there and the few trees are deformed. Anaconda took a novel approach and built a golf course on the tailings.
https://nicklausdesign.com/course/oldworks/
There still are acres of uncovered tailings. If you take the hiking traill around the course you get to see the before state.
Then there was the Milltown Dam. There was a lot of foot dragging and
finger pointing but in '96 an exceptionally snowy winter formed ice floes
and the dam was in danger of failing. That got peoples' attention. It was
a long process but the sediments were sent back to Anaconda where they
came from and the dam was removed. When you've got lemons, make a state
park.
https://fwp.mt.gov/stateparks/milltown
The web site is a bit dated. The dam had acted to stabilize a rock face on the south side where the overlook is. A couple of years ago they decided
it was unstable and closed it off. The old Milwaukee rail line has been converted to a bike path but Tunnel 26 1/2 passes under the outlook and
the state isn't going to take the liability for that. There was also a
plan to use an old bridge to cross the river where the rail bridge was and connect the north and south parts of the park but that's held up with some land deal. I often hike the trail up and over the ridge and down to the floodplain on the other side but it would be a difficult bike ride.
On 12/3/24 4:13 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/2/24 9:02 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:
In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be >>>>>>> more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes >>>>>>> like chicken'.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or >>>>>>>>> curry the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard >>>>>>>>> eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. >>>>>>>> The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how >>>>>>>> it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get >>>>>>>> me to enjoy chicken breast.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group >>>>>> could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein >>>>>> at very good prices!
Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with >>>>>> snake protein.
Edible if you wanted.
Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just >>>> for the taking!
Yea ... if you're down with locusts :-)
There IS a vocal segment that basically want to FORCE
everybody to eat insects almost entirely as "meat".
This is not good. I have nothing against the free and voluntary consumption >> of insects. If you're into it, be my guest! I am against forced
consumption. But, given the amount of famine and starving children in
africa, it would be interested to see if something could be done with the
locust swarms to get cheap protein for the people.
If I did not have food, I'd welcome insect food over nothing at all. In
fact I've had grass hopper (deep fried) and it was actually quite good. I
also had scorpion when I went to china once, and it tasted like a crunchy
shrimp.
Sorry, I like my meat to have had a moo or cluck or
squeal .......
Oh, avoid deer/moose meat now ... there's a lot of
something like Mad Cow prion going around. NO cure
for that. Bear meat - only WELL done as they tend
to be full of parasites (bear meat isn't that good
anyway).
In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only thing >> you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a plluted lake. That >> is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central stockholm where for many >> decades heavy industry poured out its filth into the water.
It's improving, but still not good enough. If you're 30 minutes away by
boat from the center, then you can start to eat an occasional fish or two.
The prion problem seems localized to north America
at the moment. You're probably OK in Sweden, for now.
Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around
species .......
Bear ... it's really kinda yuk.
Wild boar, anywhere, STILL tend to carry nasty
parasites. Always cook well-done.
On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 19:13, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:32:59 +0100, D wrote:Same as ostrich. It's just not very interesting as meat
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group
could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at >>>>> very good prices!
https://amaroohills.com/collections/emu
I don't know about snake but raising emus was a get rich quick scheme
years ago. A company at the Arizona state fair was giving out emu burgers >>>> to attract attention. It wasn't objectionable but the idea didn't catch >>>> on. It has the 'neither fish nor fowl' problem. It doesn't taste like
chicken or quite like beef.
There is a huge range of meat (and fungi) that are edible, but so dull or >>> faintly obnoxious that no one does.
Wild hare (jack rabbit) tastes and smells like jockstraps after a hard match.
By the time you have got rid of that flavour all the other flavour has gone >>> too.
Same goes for the muddy taste in pond reared carp.
Rabbit is plain dull. But in a stew with bacon and vegetables and plenty of
herbs, its not bad
I bought some rabbit sausage the other week, and it tasted like
tasteless chicken sausage. Perhaps a little less smooth texture. It wasn't >> bad, but definitely not something to write home about either.
About 45 years ago, while eating in the college dorm cafeteria, I
noticed the piece of "chicken" on my plate was a little tougher
and drier than most chicken, and the arrangement of the bones did
not appear to be consistent with any piece of chicken I had ever
seen. I had eaten rabbit a few years earlier, when my uncle was
raising them, so I started to suspect the "chicken" was really
rabbit. My suspicion was confirmed when I heard a girl shriek
rather unhappily from a couple of tables away, "We're eating
BUNNIES!"
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:18:55 +0100, D wrote:
This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country side
house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or both.
So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time to
time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they are
not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!
That could be interesting. My father and I were rabbit hunting when a pheasant provided a target of opportunity. My father managed to knock the bird down and it landed in some brush about 50 yards away. The beagle ran over but after a brief scuffle the pheasant flew off and the beagle
decided he wasn't a bird dog.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 20:53:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Mostly they use 12 gauge on them. That seems to kill them ouright
If you get a solid hit. See my other post about beagle versus pheasant.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on
the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0
https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure
"Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Due
to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme in a diverse range of landscapes"
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on >>> the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0
https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure
"Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans
across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Due
to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme
in a
diverse range of landscapes"
Thyme and rosemary are both excellent with lamb!
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, Robert Riches wrote:
About 45 years ago, while eating in the college dorm cafeteria, I
noticed the piece of "chicken" on my plate was a little tougher
and drier than most chicken, and the arrangement of the bones did
not appear to be consistent with any piece of chicken I had ever
seen. I had eaten rabbit a few years earlier, when my uncle was
raising them, so I started to suspect the "chicken" was really
rabbit. My suspicion was confirmed when I heard a girl shriek
rather unhappily from a couple of tables away, "We're eating
BUNNIES!"
How strange! How come they didn't just say that todays special was
rabbit? Or maybe there was an error somewhere with the delivery and some boxed got mixed up?
I shot one with a .22 air rifle.
It didn't die. I tried to wring its neck.
Too little energy I assume? Did you hit it dead center?
The head came off, and it still didn't die.
Surely it must have been only reflexes?
Eventually it died and I plucked it and emptied its insides and ate
it. Quite good really.
I can imagine!
Mostly they use 12 gauge on them. That seems to kill them ouright
I think you can buy small mines made specifically for birds! 😉
Now, due to the Ukraine situation, I've twice seen fighter jets above my house.
They are very cute, but can be annoying!
On 04/12/2024 00:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:Ah. Celtic melodies - the basis for much of the USAs country music.
I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on >>> the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0
https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasureOh That stuff. Seen it a lot in wales. I wonder if the sheep eat it?
"Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans
across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Due >> to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme in a >> diverse range of landscapes"
On 04/12/2024 09:35, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around freely on >>>> the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0
https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure
"Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans
across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Due >>> to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild thyme in a >>> diverse range of landscapes"
Thyme and rosemary are both excellent with lamb!
Rosemary especially but I am not sure it grows wild much in the UK
It is hardy when planted.
On 04/12/2024 09:24, D wrote:
Now, due to the Ukraine situation, I've twice seen fighter jets above my
house.
I live within nuclear blast range of *two* RAF/USAAF airbases. When I hear the rumble of jets and no corresponding ADSB transponders I know the middle east is in for a strike.
Or if the tankers show up, and the SIGINT planes, that someone is peeping into Russia on behalf of Ukraine...
And of course the Imperial war museums Spitfires and Hurricanes do test flights here all summer.
Nothing to crash into or upon. Just farmland
On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
They are very cute, but can be annoying!
I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too close, Need cutting down.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/12/2024 09:35, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
I wonder how the herbs differ? If the lamb in wales run around
freely on
the mountain sides, I can imagine that there could be similarities!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uCDw30wCe0
https://www.wildfoodie.co.uk/post/wild-thyme-fragrant-treasure
"Wild thyme is indigenous to the UK, and its natural distribution spans >>>> across the country. It is particularly abundant in England and Wales,
though it can also be found in parts of Scotland and Northern
Ireland. Due
to its adaptability to various habitats, you can encounter wild
thyme in a
diverse range of landscapes"
Thyme and rosemary are both excellent with lamb!
Rosemary especially but I am not sure it grows wild much in the UK
It is hardy when planted.
Brings back memories. Lamb steak with crispy skin, then a nice layer of
fat, and then tender and very tasty lamb meat. Add to that, gravy, peas,
red cabbage and glazed potatoes.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/12/2024 10:10, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, Robert Riches wrote:
About 45 years ago, while eating in the college dorm cafeteria, I
noticed the piece of "chicken" on my plate was a little tougher
and drier than most chicken, and the arrangement of the bones did
not appear to be consistent with any piece of chicken I had ever
seen. I had eaten rabbit a few years earlier, when my uncle was
raising them, so I started to suspect the "chicken" was really
rabbit. My suspicion was confirmed when I heard a girl shriek
rather unhappily from a couple of tables away, "We're eating
BUNNIES!"
How strange! How come they didn't just say that todays special was
rabbit? Or maybe there was an error somewhere with the delivery and
some boxed got mixed up?
People have childhood memories of Peter rabbit and Bambi.
So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I
do not understand them at all.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/12/2024 09:24, D wrote:
Now, due to the Ukraine situation, I've twice seen fighter jets above
my house.
I live within nuclear blast range of *two* RAF/USAAF airbases. When I
hear the rumble of jets and no corresponding ADSB transponders I know
the middle east is in for a strike.
Or if the tankers show up, and the SIGINT planes, that someone is
peeping into Russia on behalf of Ukraine...
And of course the Imperial war museums Spitfires and Hurricanes do
test flights here all summer.
Nothing to crash into or upon. Just farmland
Sounds like you have the basis of a nice little intelligence-business
there! ;)
On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
They are very cute, but can be annoying!
I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too
close, Need cutting down.
I would imagine that plenty of herbs and stuff gets consumed together
with the grass. I don't think they are too picky about their greens.
On 04/12/2024 09:25, D wrote:
The head came off, and it still didn't die.
Surely it must have been only reflexes?
*shrug*
My late mother used to tell of her childhood experience when her mother
cut the head of a chicken and it ran around in circles for a long time
'headless chicken' syndrome....
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
When I was a kid there was a squirrel that came around at breakfast time
looking for a handout. He would hang on the kitchen window screen and look >> in until he got his treat. It wasn't really animal abuse but I would give
him bread with peanut butter. He enjoyed the peanut butter but it was
amusing watching him trying to get it off the roof of his mouth.
In todays youtube world, you could have been a millionaire with a video of that!
Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species .......
Surely looks like good fishing on the web site! =) But maybe it is
fishing only, and not eating them?
Regardless positive that they decided to make a state park out of it!
I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
apparently, according to my father, it was awful.
So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I
do not understand them at all.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:18:55 +0100, D wrote:Really?? Was that a very small beagle, or a very big bird? ;)
This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country
side house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or
both. So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time
to time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they
are not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!
That could be interesting. My father and I were rabbit hunting when a
pheasant provided a target of opportunity. My father managed to knock
the bird down and it landed in some brush about 50 yards away. The
beagle ran over but after a brief scuffle the pheasant flew off and the
beagle decided he wasn't a bird dog.
On 04/12/2024 13:07, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/12/2024 10:10, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, Robert Riches wrote:
About 45 years ago, while eating in the college dorm cafeteria, I
noticed the piece of "chicken" on my plate was a little tougher
and drier than most chicken, and the arrangement of the bones did
not appear to be consistent with any piece of chicken I had ever
seen. I had eaten rabbit a few years earlier, when my uncle was
raising them, so I started to suspect the "chicken" was really
rabbit. My suspicion was confirmed when I heard a girl shriek
rather unhappily from a couple of tables away, "We're eating
BUNNIES!"
How strange! How come they didn't just say that todays special was
rabbit? Or maybe there was an error somewhere with the delivery and some >>>> boxed got mixed up?
People have childhood memories of Peter rabbit and Bambi.
So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I do >> not understand them at all.
People as children get to associate words, images ideas with emotions.
So 'all snakes BAD!! RUN. Bambi CUTE - cuddle - don't eat.'
Then when - or if - they grow up, they replace them with more sophisticated and rational judgements.
On 04/12/2024 13:08, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/12/2024 09:24, D wrote:
Now, due to the Ukraine situation, I've twice seen fighter jets above my >>>> house.
I live within nuclear blast range of *two* RAF/USAAF airbases. When I hear >>> the rumble of jets and no corresponding ADSB transponders I know the
middle east is in for a strike.
Or if the tankers show up, and the SIGINT planes, that someone is peeping >>> into Russia on behalf of Ukraine...
And of course the Imperial war museums Spitfires and Hurricanes do test
flights here all summer.
Nothing to crash into or upon. Just farmland
Sounds like you have the basis of a nice little intelligence-business
there! ;)
Damned if I am going to do Putin's work for him. Someone is flying drones over them already and then it all went quite.
The USAAF, like God, likes to move in mysterious ways.
Meet nice people off the bases sometimes.
On 04/12/2024 13:09, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
They are very cute, but can be annoying!
I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too close, >>> Need cutting down.
Do you live in a small house in the middle of nowhere, right next to a lake >> and/or river with plenty of salmon? Maybe I could buy your house? ;)
http://www.larksrise.com
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:05:13 +0100, D wrote:
I would imagine that plenty of herbs and stuff gets consumed together
with the grass. I don't think they are too picky about their greens.
They can be. Leafy spurge is an invasive species and the land managers decided sheep grazing on the hillsides would be more ecologically friendly than herbicides. It was all very bucolic and even included a traditional sheep wagon. The sheep ate everything except leafy spurge. The area where they were penned for the night was eaten down to mineral soil and still hasn't recovered after 10 years.
After the photo ops the sheep were removed and Tordon herbicide was
applied. I don't know why but the sheep farmer switched to goats.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:12:25 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Bear ... it's really kinda yuk.
I never had bear myself, but my father once had it in Helsinki in a
russian restaurant. Apparently he thought it was quite alright,
although not something he was dreaming about afterwards.
I've heard it's greatly dependent on what the bear in question has been living off of - wild fruit and game, great, camper trash cans, not so
much. The one time I've had it, it was like very rich beef.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 12:21:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
They are very cute, but can be annoying!
I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too
close, Need cutting down.
You're lucky. The magpues do a war dance on my roof mornings and cutting
down trees is no defense against airborne forces. They also help
themselves to the cat's food. Gotta get a bigger, meaner cat.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 00:44:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species .......
There was an attempt to reestablish the elk population in upstate New York which inadvertently introduced chronic wasting disease into the whitetail population. The jury is out on whether it's transmissible to humans.
The bison in Yellowstone National Park are another source of controversy.
The herds are infected with brucellosis and being wild tend to wander out
of the park.
https://thecounter.org/slaughtering-yellowstone-buffalo-brucellosis/
Wolves, which are reintroducing themselves, are a source of controversy
too. Lucky for the US wolves they don't have von der Leyden on their case.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 10:37:37 +0100, D wrote:
Surely looks like good fishing on the web site! =) But maybe it is
fishing only, and not eating them?
Regardless positive that they decided to make a state park out of it!
https://vp-mi.com/news/2020/dec/23/advisory-issued-avoid-eating-fish- section-clark-fo/
It's complex. The park is at the confluence of the Blackfoot and Clark
Fork. The Bitterroot confluence is about 5 miles downstream. Previously
the guidance downstream of Missoula was to not eat pike and limit
consumption of other species. The shutdown paper mill has settling ponds adjacent to the river and they're a new concern.
Before the dam was removed there was an annual pickerel derby but even
then the prevailing wisdom was to not eat the fish. Before the dam was removed the area was poisoned since they didn't want pickerel downstream.
For context, the Blackfoot was the setting for the film 'A River Runs
Through It', sort of. Like many movies the real Blackfoot isn't very accessible and it was filmed elsewhere and the trout were radio
controlled. There are other geographic impossibilities but the movie was
well received. Luckily the Blackfoot never had any mining or industry to pollute it.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:09:48 +0100, D wrote:
I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
apparently, according to my father, it was awful.
I made a batch of dandelion wine when I was a kid. It was pretty rough. We got cider from a local farmer who had rigged up a tractor driven chopper
and had a old jackscrew press. Bring your own jugs. Unfiltered and unpasteurized it tended to self ferment into sparkling cider.
During prohibition some of my family took a more professional approach although the final product was applejack rather than cider.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:07:42 +0100, D wrote:
So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I
do not understand them at all.
I was able to compartmentalize as a kid. There was the friendly squirrel
we fed and then there was his cousins out in the woods that fed us.
Before my time but my parents raised a pig. Pig farming is one thing but raising one pig is something else since pigs are quite intelligent. The
pig got butchered in the fall and eaten but the experiment wasn't
repeated. They stuck to chickens.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 10:35:14 +0100, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:18:55 +0100, D wrote:Really?? Was that a very small beagle, or a very big bird? ;)
This is the truth! They were bred in captivity close to my country
side house, and one day either the farm closed, the birds escaped, or
both. So now there are "wild" pheasants running around there from time >>>> to time. I have thought about getting out the old longbow, since they
are not shy at all. Maybe a project for next summer!
That could be interesting. My father and I were rabbit hunting when a
pheasant provided a target of opportunity. My father managed to knock
the bird down and it landed in some brush about 50 yards away. The
beagle ran over but after a brief scuffle the pheasant flew off and the
beagle decided he wasn't a bird dog.
Well, he was a 13" beagle which is the US designation for the smaller end
of the scale and a pissed off ring neck wasn't quite what he expected to
find in the brush. Rabbits run away and don't fight back.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:09:48 +0100, D wrote:
I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
apparently, according to my father, it was awful.
I made a batch of dandelion wine when I was a kid. It was pretty rough.
We got cider from a local farmer who had rigged up a tractor driven
chopper and had a old jackscrew press. Bring your own jugs. Unfiltered
and unpasteurized it tended to self ferment into sparkling cider.
During prohibition some of my family took a more professional approach
although the final product was applejack rather than cider.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)
Never heard of, but sounds similar to Calvados. Would you say it is
similar?
Fascinating! Had no idea they were picky eaters! Maybe the goats were
less picky?
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 23:58:51 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/1/24 4:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 04:19:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, Apache isn't HORRIBLE. It's also well-refined and
well-supported. NOT to be sneezed at. Newer stuff is
smaller/faster ... but what do you lose ?
https://dev.to/emiliosp/nodejs-vs-apache-performance-battle-for-the-
conquest-of-my-5c4n
I haven't noticed that I lost anything using node.js. nginx is also
taking market share from Apache.
The alts ARE getting much better. Didn't start out like that however.
No, but that was then. This is now. Like Windows 10 older technology
doesn't go away peacefully but getting stuck in the past isn't a good
career move, not that it matters to me anymore.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:12:25 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Bear ... it's really kinda yuk.
I never had bear myself, but my father once had it in Helsinki in a
russian restaurant. Apparently he thought it was quite alright,
although not something he was dreaming about afterwards.
I've heard it's greatly dependent on what the bear in question has been
living off of - wild fruit and game, great, camper trash cans, not so
much. The one time I've had it, it was like very rich beef.
I had whale in iceland. It was like a juicy, tender steak. Very, very
good! I wonder if I can get bear somewhere where I am at the moment?
Maybe I can find a russian restaurant, but my wife would refuse to go,
so maybe not so smart after all. =/
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/3/24 4:13 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/2/24 9:02 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:
In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns' >>>>>>
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it >>>>>>>> to be more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. >>>>>>>>>> Or curry the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back >>>>>>>>>> yard eating worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking >>>>>>>>> upon. The wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and >>>>>>>>> we'll see how it compares. My bet is it will be better, but not >>>>>>>>> good enough to get me to enjoy chicken breast.
reptiles - 'tastes like chicken'.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald
Trump of protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for >>>>>>> this group could be to start a snake breeding farm and sell
chicken:ish, protein at very good prices!
Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared
with snake protein.
Edible if you wanted.
Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of
locusts which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of
protein there, just for the taking!
Yea ... if you're down with locusts :-)
There IS a vocal segment that basically want to FORCE
everybody to eat insects almost entirely as "meat".
This is not good. I have nothing against the free and voluntary
consumption of insects. If you're into it, be my guest! I am against
forced consumption. But, given the amount of famine and starving
children in africa, it would be interested to see if something could
be done with the locust swarms to get cheap protein for the people.
If I did not have food, I'd welcome insect food over nothing at all.
In fact I've had grass hopper (deep fried) and it was actually quite
good. I also had scorpion when I went to china once, and it tasted
like a crunchy shrimp.
Sorry, I like my meat to have had a moo or cluck or
squeal .......
Oh, avoid deer/moose meat now ... there's a lot of
something like Mad Cow prion going around. NO cure
for that. Bear meat - only WELL done as they tend
to be full of parasites (bear meat isn't that good
anyway).
In sweden deer/moose is ok at the moment I think (and hope). The only
thing you need to be careful with is boar and if you fish in a
plluted lake. That is, definitely do _not_ eat anything from central
stockholm where for many decades heavy industry poured out its filth
into the water.
It's improving, but still not good enough. If you're 30 minutes away
by boat from the center, then you can start to eat an occasional fish
or two.
The prion problem seems localized to north America
at the moment. You're probably OK in Sweden, for now.
Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around
species .......
Bear ... it's really kinda yuk.
I never had bear myself, but my father once had it in Helsinki in a
russian restaurant. Apparently he thought it was quite alright, although
not something he was dreaming about afterwards.
Wild boar, anywhere, STILL tend to carry nasty
parasites. Always cook well-done.
Wild boar is very tasty! I had bbq:d smoked boar two years ago, and it
was amazing!
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 00:44:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species ....... >>There was an attempt to reestablish the elk population in upstate New
York
which inadvertently introduced chronic wasting disease into the whitetail
population. The jury is out on whether it's transmissible to humans.
The bison in Yellowstone National Park are another source of controversy.
The herds are infected with brucellosis and being wild tend to wander out
of the park.
https://thecounter.org/slaughtering-yellowstone-buffalo-brucellosis/
Wolves, which are reintroducing themselves, are a source of controversy
too. Lucky for the US wolves they don't have von der Leyden on their
case.
Ahh... a wolf eating her pony, that brings joy and laughter to my life! Before that, oh so noble minded and eco-fascist, and when nature knocked
on the door, it was full nazi mode. =D
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:07:42 +0100, D wrote:
So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I
do not understand them at all.
I was able to compartmentalize as a kid. There was the friendly squirrel
we fed and then there was his cousins out in the woods that fed us.
Before my time but my parents raised a pig. Pig farming is one thing but
raising one pig is something else since pigs are quite intelligent. The
pig got butchered in the fall and eaten but the experiment wasn't
repeated. They stuck to chickens.
Yes, I imagine the more intelligent they are, and the fewer they are,
the stronger connection you build, and the less tasty the food.
Reminds me of the old Simpsons episode when Homer raises a small lobster
only to consume it while crying.
The farmers/herdsmen SHOOT the things on sight even now ... just
don't TELL anybody.
As for bear ... it CAN be had sometimes in the American west.
Wyoming, Montana, that general area. They are hunted, but not all so
much by and large, so it's a matter of lucky timing.
Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush
... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar hunts
YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want fused
wrists in yer old age
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 00:44:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species .......
There was an attempt to reestablish the elk population in upstate New York which inadvertently introduced chronic wasting disease into the whitetail population. The jury is out on whether it's transmissible to humans.
The bison in Yellowstone National Park are another source of controversy.
The herds are infected with brucellosis and being wild tend to wander out
of the park.
https://thecounter.org/slaughtering-yellowstone-buffalo-brucellosis/
Wolves, which are reintroducing themselves, are a source of controversy
too. Lucky for the US wolves they don't have von der Leyden on their case.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:09:48 +0100, D wrote:
I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
apparently, according to my father, it was awful.
I made a batch of dandelion wine when I was a kid. It was pretty rough. We got cider from a local farmer who had rigged up a tractor driven chopper
and had a old jackscrew press. Bring your own jugs. Unfiltered and unpasteurized it tended to self ferment into sparkling cider.
During prohibition some of my family took a more professional approach although the final product was applejack rather than cider.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/12/2024 13:09, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/12/2024 09:27, D wrote:
They are very cute, but can be annoying!
I can hear then running all over my roof as I write, Trees are too
close, Need cutting down.
Do you live in a small house in the middle of nowhere, right next to
a lake and/or river with plenty of salmon? Maybe I could buy your
house? ;)
http://www.larksrise.com
It's enormous! Are you some kind of older english lord?
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 21:52:51 +0100, D wrote:
Fascinating! Had no idea they were picky eaters! Maybe the goats were
less picky?
They will eat spurge if they run out of more palatable food. Some have reported success.
https://www.realagriculture.com/2018/03/controlling-leafy-spurge-one- flock-at-a-time/
I don't know the full story. They did it for a few years but when the
sheep went home signs would go up along the trails saying they were going
to treat the area with herbicide.
The idea wasn't all that popular with hikers. Dogs were banned both to prevent them harassing the sheep and to reduce conflicts with the
sheepdogs. The sheepdogs were even aggressive to humans. They never tried
to bite me but they gave the impression I wasn't welcome.
The goats were never used on the mountain. I go past the farm on my way to work and noticed it switched from sheep to goats and a lonesome looking
yak. Quite a few sheep operations have shut down. Lamb has went out of
favor and much of what is available comes from New Zealand. I don't know
how profitable wool production is either.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 21:59:00 +0100, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:09:48 +0100, D wrote:
I have a neighbour who does some kind of black currant wine and
apparently, according to my father, it was awful.
I made a batch of dandelion wine when I was a kid. It was pretty rough.
We got cider from a local farmer who had rigged up a tractor driven
chopper and had a old jackscrew press. Bring your own jugs. Unfiltered
and unpasteurized it tended to self ferment into sparkling cider.
During prohibition some of my family took a more professional approach
although the final product was applejack rather than cider.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)
Never heard of, but sounds similar to Calvados. Would you say it is
similar?
No idea, never having had Calvados. I had commercial applejack years ago
and iirc it wouldn't be recognized as an apple product in a blind taste
test.
the suggestions, check a few boxes ... saves like
an hour. Ever set up RAID The Hard Way ? With Yast
it's literally a minute or two and it'll do a good
guess at the opt flags and such needed for what
you're setting up.
I wonder if I can get bear somewhere where I am at the moment? Maybe I can >> find a russian restaurant, but my wife would refuse to go, so maybe not so >> smart after all. =/
Whale ? SHAME !!! :-)
Japan alone is driving their extinction, TOO tasty !
Too bright to eat IMHO ... feel more "moral" with
something more stupid.
They ARE related to pigs, which surely contributes
to the taste.
As for bear ... it CAN be had sometimes in the
American west. Wyoming, Montana, that general
area. They are hunted, but not all so much by
and large, so it's a matter of lucky timing.
There's also alligator in the south - surprisingly
like chicken if cooked properly. When did reptiles
diverge from dinos/birds ???
On 12/4/24 4:00 PM, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 14:07:42 +0100, D wrote:
So do I, but I still enjoy eating them. People are strange! Sometimes I >>>> do not understand them at all.
I was able to compartmentalize as a kid. There was the friendly squirrel >>> we fed and then there was his cousins out in the woods that fed us.
Before my time but my parents raised a pig. Pig farming is one thing but >>> raising one pig is something else since pigs are quite intelligent. The
pig got butchered in the fall and eaten but the experiment wasn't
repeated. They stuck to chickens.
Yes, I imagine the more intelligent they are, and the fewer they are, the
stronger connection you build, and the less tasty the food.
Reminds me of the old Simpsons episode when Homer raises a small lobster
only to consume it while crying.
Yep - we can mentally split such things. Pet calf -vs-
Big Mac ... entirely different even while not being
so different :-)
Kinda how we treat US and THEM too ... nothing is too
bad for The Enemy, for THEM ...
Maybe that's why our subspecies wound up the ONLY one,
seriously weird and hostile and LOVES cognitive dissonance :-)
Ah, the poor Neanderthals. Never stood a chance.
"Six impossible things before breakfast ..."
On 12/4/24 3:55 PM, D wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 00:44:28 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:Ahh... a wolf eating her pony, that brings joy and laughter to my life!
Alas, the way 'conservationists' tend to move-around species ....... >>>There was an attempt to reestablish the elk population in upstate New York >>> which inadvertently introduced chronic wasting disease into the whitetail >>> population. The jury is out on whether it's transmissible to humans.
The bison in Yellowstone National Park are another source of controversy. >>> The herds are infected with brucellosis and being wild tend to wander out >>> of the park.
https://thecounter.org/slaughtering-yellowstone-buffalo-brucellosis/
Wolves, which are reintroducing themselves, are a source of controversy
too. Lucky for the US wolves they don't have von der Leyden on their case. >>
Before that, oh so noble minded and eco-fascist, and when nature knocked on >> the door, it was full nazi mode. =D
Repopulating wolves was a MISTAKE in my opinion.
All the old stories, they weren't wrong. Humans
are easy to hunt/kill for wolves.
The farmers/herdsmen SHOOT the things on sight even
now ... just don't TELL anybody.
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet
for all that aggression.
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet
for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
I kinda know how Apache thinks, what goes in which config files /
folders.
Hmm, I wonder if it is difficult to make? My wifes father has about 15
apple trees or so in the country side and gets more apples than he can
deal with.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:
In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be >>>> more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes >>>> like chicken'.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry >>>>>> the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating >>>>>> worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The >>>>> wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it >>>>> compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to >>>>> enjoy chicken breast.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of
protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could >>> be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very
good prices!
Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with snake >>> protein.
Edible if you wanted.
Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just
for the taking!
Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same money >>>> you could find a better bird to eat.
Duck should be possible to obtain here. I like duck!
The pie idea is good though!
Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.
Amen!
Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.
However some foods are so shit that nothing works.
There is another method where you make the shit taste shittier, and thereby >>> the shit cancels out resulting in a less shittier final result!
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:37:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
As for bear ... it CAN be had sometimes in the American west.
Wyoming, Montana, that general area. They are hunted, but not all so
much by and large, so it's a matter of lucky timing.
There are bear seasons in the fall and spring. I don't know anyone
personally who hunts bear.
https://www.swanmountainoutfitters.com/trip/montana-black-bear-hunts/
Only $5000 per person for the 6 day Cast & Blast special. At least it's
fair chase. Some areas use hounds in the spring. Most of the nimrods
aren't hunting for the meat they just want to kill a bear. Personally I
root for the bears.
I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the 'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.
I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.
Interesting coincidence that discussion about hunting bears is going ondrives-out-employees-and-lives-the-best-two-days-of-its-life
when this news story breaks:
https://notthebee.com/article/bear-invades-japanese-grocery-store-
the suggestions, check a few boxes ... saves like
an hour. Ever set up RAID The Hard Way ? With Yast
Yast? Are you another opensuse user? I thought I was the only one!
it's literally a minute or two and it'll do a good
guess at the opt flags and such needed for what
you're setting up.
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:42:48 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The farmers/herdsmen SHOOT the things on sight even now ... just
don't TELL anybody.
The acronym here is SSS. Shoot, shovel, and shut up.
https://assayjournal.wordpress.com/2016/11/28/jennifer-london-on-the-nine- mile-wolves-by-rick-bass/
I worked at the Ninemile Ranger Station in '89 and '90 when the wolves
showed up. It was a pack that drifted down from Canada not a planned reintroduction. They ate a couple of llamas, no big lost. Llamas don't
belong here; wolves do.
There's a fund to reimburse ranchers for wolf kills but some people are
just itching to shoot a wolf. A few years back a couple of guys shot an
elk, It was late and they were tired so they decided to return the next
day to butcher it. The wolves had other ideas.
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say creative and destructive energies.
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:28:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush
... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar hunts
YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want fused
wrists in yer old age
A friend bought a .454 Casull which was the big dog at the time. He was pissed when S&W upped the ante. I draw the line at .357 and even then for target practice I load closer to .38 Special specs.
And they'll eat yer kiddies even faster than any llama ....
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 10:22:53 +0100, D wrote:
Hmm, I wonder if it is difficult to make? My wifes father has about 15
apple trees or so in the country side and gets more apples than he can
deal with.
https://www.instructables.com/How-to-make-cider/
That would work for small quantities. The person we got cider from had a hopper that fed the apples into a drum with screws sticking out and used
the tractor PTO to run the drum but he was large scale. The press was essentially the same but larger with a jackscrew rather than a hydraulic jack.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 03:29:11 -0000 (UTC), pH wrote:
I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that
there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.
I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.
Probably for some people. Personally I'm a little weird and I eat the
tails on fried shrimp and shrimp cocktails. Maybe I have some sort of
dietary deficiency but I'm fairly sure I could handle cricket flour.
I don't know if it's still around but Reese was a company that sold cans
of weird stuff including fried grasshoppers, whale, and chocolate covered bees. The grasshoppers weren't bad.
Trivia: Many of the Indian tribes ate grasshoppers. They approached it
with great efficiency and set fire to the fields. The fire got rid of the legs and wings, producing roasted hoppers.
I don't know if they were as prevalent before wheat farming but the
Carolina hoppers are big.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissosteira_carolina
I had to roll the windows up on the pickup while driving past wheat fields after the harvest because the cab was filling up with the damn things.
On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/12/2024 17:32, D wrote:
In S Africa Locusts and crickets were known as 'pParkhurst prawns'
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/11/2024 20:54, D wrote:
I would concur with that. Chicken is cheap protein. Expecting it to be >>>>> more is nuts. All reptiles - and birds evolved from reptiles - 'tastes >>>>> like chicken'.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well pie it with bacon mushroom and a white wine white sauce. Or curry >>>>>>> the bugger.
Or buy a chicken from someone who keeps them around the back yard eating
worms and stuff. THEY have taste
After christmas, this is exactly the experiment I am embarking upon. The >>>>>> wife will buy a chicken from a free range farm, and we'll see how it >>>>>> compares. My bet is it will be better, but not good enough to get me to >>>>>> enjoy chicken breast.
I read that in terms of protein, breeding snakes is the Donald Trump of >>>> protein when it comes to price! A free business idea for this group could >>>> be to start a snake breeding farm and sell chicken:ish, protein at very >>>> good prices!
Then there's also insect protein. I do not know how it compared with snake >>>> protein.
Edible if you wanted.
Fascinating to think about that, given the enormous amount of locusts
which plague them from time to time. Huge amounts of protein there, just
for the taking!
I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the 'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.
I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.
This being Usenet I'm sure someone will set me straight if I'm way off base!
pH in Aptos
Free range costs more and tastes a little better, but for the same money >>>>> you could find a better bird to eat.
Duck should be possible to obtain here. I like duck!
The pie idea is good though!
Europe is full of ideas for making shit food taste better.
Porcini mushrooms (ceps) taste meatier than meat.
Amen!
Spices add some sort of interest as do herbs, and garlic.
However some foods are so shit that nothing works.
There is another method where you make the shit taste shittier, and thereby
the shit cancels out resulting in a less shittier final result!
On 12/5/24 4:25 AM, D wrote:
the suggestions, check a few boxes ... saves like
an hour. Ever set up RAID The Hard Way ? With Yast
Yast? Are you another opensuse user? I thought I was the only one!
USED to be my fave from LONG back. Found a distro
in WalMart of all places. Had used Red Hat, but
SUSE (now OpenSUSE) had many advanced tools that
made the long and tedious NOT so long and tedious.
Alas after IBM and RH ... that whole group of
derivs ... you're kinda reduced to their beta
testers now. SO sad.
Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
a bunch of Canonical rejects .....
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK.
The Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never
a fan of Slack, but, who knows ...... gotta keep
evading suckitude.
Oh, DID get Tumbleweed to run on a Pi-4 ... and
it all worked. Alas it's a medium/large distro
so things were a bit clunky at times.
it's literally a minute or two and it'll do a good
guess at the opt flags and such needed for what
you're setting up.
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet >>> for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
I've got Fedora 40 on one machine. Not bad but it updates frequently
compared to Ubuntu or Debian.
Debian us on my work machine. I wanted stability, not cutting edge.
On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet >>>> for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
creative and destructive energies.
To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'
WE make of it all as we will.
Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...
On 12/5/24 2:34 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:28:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush >>> ... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar hunts >>> YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want
fused
wrists in yer old age
A friend bought a .454 Casull which was the big dog at the time. He was
pissed when S&W upped the ante. I draw the line at .357 and even then for
target practice I load closer to .38 Special specs.
.38 +P is about all ya need for general/defense work.
Just generally go for the lighter bullets, not the
traditional 158s. Fer sure those old "police loads"
did NOT impress.
NOT sure I'd like .357 for wild boar. It'd take TOO
perfect a hit. The .44 gives you a little slack.
I've fired a .454 ... and decided I didn't want to
fire one anymore. The .50 ... nah ! MAYbe for extra
large people. There's some point in there where you
go for a carbine/rifle.
Hmmmmmm ... if you necked-down the .50 to 10mm - a
sort of modernized 44/40. Might make a really good
revolver/carbine combo.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 03:29:11 -0000 (UTC), pH wrote:
I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that >>> there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.
I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.
Probably for some people. Personally I'm a little weird and I eat the
tails on fried shrimp and shrimp cocktails. Maybe I have some sort of
dietary deficiency but I'm fairly sure I could handle cricket flour.
I don't know if it's still around but Reese was a company that sold cans
of weird stuff including fried grasshoppers, whale, and chocolate covered
bees. The grasshoppers weren't bad.
Trivia: Many of the Indian tribes ate grasshoppers. They approached it
with great efficiency and set fire to the fields. The fire got rid of the
legs and wings, producing roasted hoppers.
Interesting! Nothing new under the sun! But somewhere there is a problem
or else there would be abundant grasshopper protein companies.
I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.
Or maybe it is just culture, and they foresee it as being very difficult
to persude the consumer to try it.
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
theme. ;) But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real
world as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true
or false.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
creative and destructive energies.
To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'
WE make of it all as we will.
Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...
I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to
disagree. I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate
nature, laws and composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far
science will take us. I lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive empiricism.
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 10:22:53 +0100, D wrote:
Hmm, I wonder if it is difficult to make? My wifes father has about 15
apple trees or so in the country side and gets more apples than he can
deal with.
https://www.instructables.com/How-to-make-cider/
That would work for small quantities. The person we got cider from had a
hopper that fed the apples into a drum with screws sticking out and used
the tractor PTO to run the drum but he was large scale. The press was
essentially the same but larger with a jackscrew rather than a hydraulic
jack.
Interesting! That could be a project for next summer. On the other hand,
for every liter of cider, I'd be giving up a liter of apple juice in the morning. =/
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, pH wrote:
On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that
there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.
I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.
This being Usenet I'm sure someone will set me straight if I'm way off
base!
pH in Aptos
Wouldn't surprise me at all, but if that is only a problem with a
minority of people, it could still be a thing. Imagine, prime african grasshopper steak! Hmm, or maybe that would be closer to bread? Or grasshopper burger?
On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet >>>> for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
More Kant-ian.
His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the 'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete entities, they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to others.
Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting bits of wood.
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object after having all of its original components replaced over time, typically one after the other.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship? )
Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in reality.
Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it refers to. Meta data. A pointer.
On 06/12/2024 09:00, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 03:29:11 -0000 (UTC), pH wrote:
I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that >>>> there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.
I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.
Probably for some people. Personally I'm a little weird and I eat the
tails on fried shrimp and shrimp cocktails. Maybe I have some sort of
dietary deficiency but I'm fairly sure I could handle cricket flour.
I don't know if it's still around but Reese was a company that sold cans >>> of weird stuff including fried grasshoppers, whale, and chocolate covered >>> bees. The grasshoppers weren't bad.
Trivia: Many of the Indian tribes ate grasshoppers. They approached it
with great efficiency and set fire to the fields. The fire got rid of the >>> legs and wings, producing roasted hoppers.
Interesting! Nothing new under the sun! But somewhere there is a problem or >> else there would be abundant grasshopper protein companies.
I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat substitutes, >> but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.
Or maybe it is just culture, and they foresee it as being very difficult to >> persude the consumer to try it.
Food processing is a different regime from food cultivation
I think that point about crickets and grass hoppers is, like many many other edible things, they just are not that good.
Tasteless prawns I would imagine.
Food really exists in three broad categories...
Food you really like to eat
Food that is OK if boring.
Food that tastes vile, but will keep you alive, in extremis
I think insects are probably at the lower end of the second category
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is that they are dead. Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.
On 06/12/2024 09:11, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
creative and destructive energies.
To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'
WE make of it all as we will.
Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...
I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to disagree. >> I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate nature, laws and >> composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far science will take us. I
lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive empiricism.
I don't think we disagree except on one fundamental point.
I do not see the world we commonly understand as 'real' to be anything more than a construction.
BUT where we do agree is that it has a sense and order that reflects some underlying reality that is beyond our power to modify, and that is the massive mistake the 'reality is a social construct' trans and Marxist ideologists make. You can wear a dress, but you cannot thereby change what you really are.
It is the introduction of a level of meta-data - a series of indirections, that creates the world of our experience. And that introduction is man made. Our everyday life deals with the pointers, never with the data itself. That is the essence of Kant, phrased for an IT audience..
And we can rearrange the pointers in any damn fool way we want - and the Left love to do that - but the data itself is not ours to change.
So I too have the concept of a 'beyond the mind' reality. I just don't consider it to be accessible directly. We work with interpretations of it that are anthropic and approximate only.
"The map, is not the territory."...
On 06/12/2024 09:09, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an outlet >>>>> for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
theme. ;) But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world >> as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or false.
Its not that the real world is not at some level most usefully regarded as a fact, it is that the more subtle question is whether what we *perceive* is in fact the real world *at all*. Or simply a construction in our own minds that maps what is *actually* there (maybe a probabilistic entangled quantum soup) into a recognisable world of objects and events linked in space time by natural law and causality.
Kant's objection to that view (what you see is what is there), which formed the basis for classical science, has been ignored until the early 20th century, when it began to re-emerge in the philosophy of science. Karl Popper's view that science was not the discovery of natural laws of fact, but rather the invention of testable theories that *fitted the facts*, was a direct response to Einstein and the quantum boys.
In that context Kant's views are of course a construction in their own right. As unprovable as the laws of science. But, like science, "it works, bitches"
And philosophy and physics are really coming together at last, with very smart people trying to come up with structures that work, that look nothing whatsoever like the ordinary world of our perceptions.
Science is of course a mere branch of philosophy - 'Natural philosophy'.
On 06/12/2024 08:58, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, pH wrote:
On 2024-12-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I haven't checked with my friend Google/et.al. but I seem to recall that >>> there is a problem that the chitin (sp?) of those insects....the
'shell'...can have some potent allergen reactions for some people.
I've heard that this can be a problem with 'cricket flour', I believe.
This being Usenet I'm sure someone will set me straight if I'm way off
base!
pH in Aptos
Wouldn't surprise me at all, but if that is only a problem with a minority >> of people, it could still be a thing. Imagine, prime african grasshopper
steak! Hmm, or maybe that would be closer to bread? Or grasshopper burger? >>
Shrimp paste or ground shrimp is close I suspect. Crustaceans are related to insects closely.
I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.
I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
mean,
a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
will)
determine the nature of it.
Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
theme. But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world
as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or
false.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:00:47 +0100, D wrote:
I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.
It wouldn't be vegan.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:
I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
mean,
a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
will)
determine the nature of it.
It's all water.
Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down
through 410 'crow guns' to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for
small game like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many people
use larger.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:00:47 +0100, D wrote:Ahh... so that is their target group. Then it makes sense, thank you.
I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.
It wouldn't be vegan.
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
me Natures best laxative...
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
Was my first distro too. After that, I can't remember if I went to
Mandrake or if I had netbsd in between.
I've got Fedora 40 on one machine. Not bad but it updates frequently
compared to Ubuntu or Debian.
Debian us on my work machine. I wanted stability, not cutting edge.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
I've got Fedora 40 on one machine. Not bad but it updates frequently
compared to Ubuntu or Debian.
Debian us on my work machine. I wanted stability, not cutting edge.
On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>> who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several years (and
upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
application builds from source, which grew tiresome.
I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
to move on. I finally settled on Debian.
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:03:09 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I kinda know how Apache thinks, what goes in which config files /
folders.
Apache conceptually only has a single config file. Everything else is (directly or indirectly) included from that file.
Yes, I was using Apache back when distros shipped it with everything in a single config file.
The common layout nowadays is not hard to get to grips with: put each
virtual site into its own config file, and use macros and your own
includes to avoid repeated cut/paste of the same boilerplate.
On 06/12/2024 06:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 2:34 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:28:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush >>>> ... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar
hunts
YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want >>>> fused
wrists in yer old age
A friend bought a .454 Casull which was the big dog at the time. He was
pissed when S&W upped the ante. I draw the line at .357 and even then
for
target practice I load closer to .38 Special specs.
.38 +P is about all ya need for general/defense work.
Just generally go for the lighter bullets, not the
traditional 158s. Fer sure those old "police loads"
did NOT impress.
NOT sure I'd like .357 for wild boar. It'd take TOO
perfect a hit. The .44 gives you a little slack.
I've fired a .454 ... and decided I didn't want to
fire one anymore. The .50 ... nah ! MAYbe for extra
large people. There's some point in there where you
go for a carbine/rifle.
Hmmmmmm ... if you necked-down the .50 to 10mm - a
sort of modernized 44/40. Might make a really good
revolver/carbine combo.
Interestingly in the UK we cannot use handguns at all. For anything
outside single shot target shooting at a registered range.
Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down
through 410 'crow guns' to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for
small game like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many people
use larger.
Naturally Britain being a very small country with a lot of people,
strict codes of practice accompany game shooting. It is illegal to
shoot anything but bird shot upwards...
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:25 AM, D wrote:
the suggestions, check a few boxes ... saves like
an hour. Ever set up RAID The Hard Way ? With Yast
Yast? Are you another opensuse user? I thought I was the only one!
USED to be my fave from LONG back. Found a distro
in WalMart of all places. Had used Red Hat, but
SUSE (now OpenSUSE) had many advanced tools that
made the long and tedious NOT so long and tedious.
It's been rock solid for me for at least a decade. More probably. I had
a consulting gig at a cloud company and I used opensuse. Never had any problem at all. The engineers all had ubuntu and had problems with the
wifi all the time. Ubuntu does not seem very good.
Alas after IBM and RH ... that whole group of
derivs ... you're kinda reduced to their beta
testers now. SO sad.
This is not so good. I hope IBM won't kill redhat in the end.
Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
a bunch of Canonical rejects .....
Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble
musl will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about actually going back to some of my earliest experiments and try FreeBSD
for day to day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I only need
some basics, which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages, so if they
fixed their wifi problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to run a small
linux VM for a working wifi driver) it could definitely be a serious
option. Oh, and that would mean it doesn't drain the battery as well.
But let's see. I think I can stick with opensuse 15.6 for at least
another 2-3 years, and then they might kill the project in favuor of
some container based crap.
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK.
The Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never
a fan of Slack, but, who knows ...... gotta keep
evading suckitude.
But the LATEST one especially ..... !
Try the USA. You can own almost anything - and even get a license for
.50 machine-guns. Probably won't even need that once Trump's people
are in.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 13:09:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down
through 410 'crow guns' to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for
small game like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many people
use larger.
Over the years .223 has become acceptable in more states. Part of that has been the NRA promoting AR-15 style rifles as the 'modern sporting rifle'
as a counterweight to the ignorant leftists screaming 'assault rifle'. I
have a bolt action .223 which is very accurate and pleasant to shoot but
if I were deer hunting I'd go with the 7.62 x 54R.
The traditional deer rifle where I grew up was the .32 Winchester Special. That was a regional preference over the more popular .30-30 one the theory that .32 trumps .30. The ballistics are similar however. Some of the more populous counties were restricted to 12 gauge slugs or buckshot.
In this state anything up to .50 caliber is legal. There was an attempt to supersede Federal laws for firearms manufactured in state that would allow
up to 1.5" for man portable smokeless powder weapons. It was actually as
10th Amendment states rights challenge more than a 2nd Amendment.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/firearms-freedom-act- constitution-gary-marbut/
Consider the Ruger rifles - not AS accurate but quite strongly built
and less likely to jam up.
But larger cal is better for 'hunting'. 6.5mm to .30 for northern
Europe. The old 6.5 Swedish is a great cartridge.
Canada/Alaska ... consider .375 H&H for some needs. Kicks like a
bastard though ....
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and
a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object
after having all of its original components replaced over time,
typically one after the other.
Last night somebody broke into my apartment and replaced
everything with exact duplicates. When I pointed it out
to my roommate, he said, "Do I know you?"
-- Steven Wright
This, milord, is my family's axe. We have owned it for
almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it
needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new
handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing
of the ornamentation... but is this not the nine-hundred-
year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed
gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y'know.
Pretty good.
-- Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant
And of course, our bodies go through much the same process.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:
I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
mean,
a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
will)
determine the nature of it.
It's all water.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
creative and destructive energies.
To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'
WE make of it all as we will.
Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...
I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to
disagree. I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate
nature, laws and composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far
science will take us. I lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive empiricism.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so
fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
More Kant-ian.
His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the
'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the
objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete entities,
they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to others.
Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship
doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting
bits of wood.
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox
and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same
object after having all of its original components replaced over time,
typically one after the other.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens,
rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the
Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the
Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to
Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers:
After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual
piece of the Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was
it still the same ship? )
Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If
you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem
because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in
reality.
I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem
with this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then make
up labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal heavens, concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an sich is an
absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which can never be
known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as god, or a
postulated first mover etc.
Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it
refers to. Meta data. A pointer.
I'm fine with Apache. You DO need to tweak more than one config file
these days alas - and HTTPS should be just a DEFAULT alongside HTTP.
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 21:39:58 +0100, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:00:47 +0100, D wrote:Ahh... so that is their target group. Then it makes sense, thank you.
I mean, there are companies making ridiculously expensive meat
substitutes, but they have all neglected the grasshopper route.
It wouldn't be vegan.
That's Impossible Burgers claim to fame. I've had vegetable birgers like
the black bean varieties and they aren't bad but they're not pretending to
be meat and they aren't expensive. Somehow a vegan eating something that looks like a bloody hamburger reminds me of Jews chowing down on faux
bacon.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:
Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
theme. But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world
as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or
false.
Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate. Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats. Ultimately 'cat'
is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of anything.
https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf
Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...
On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but,
who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several years (and
upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
application builds from source, which grew tiresome.
I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
to move on. I finally settled on Debian.
On 12/6/24 4:12 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>> who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
Was my first distro too. After that, I can't remember if I went to Mandrake >> or if I had netbsd in between.
Was NetBSD out in that time-frame ???
I've got Fedora 40 on one machine. Not bad but it updates frequently
compared to Ubuntu or Debian.
Debian us on my work machine. I wanted stability, not cutting edge.
Interestingly in the UK we cannot use handguns at all. For anything outside >> single shot target shooting at a registered range.
That's left-wing totalitarianism for you.
Alas, I think the UK is just about to go DOWN.
Hope you have a place way out in the countryside.
Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down through >> 410 'crow guns' to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for small game
like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many people use larger.
Naturally Britain being a very small country with a lot of people, strict
codes of practice accompany game shooting. It is illegal to shoot anything >> but bird shot upwards...
And you don't find this suspiciously Big Brotherish ?
WHO is being protected with all that - YOU ?
Try the USA. You can own almost anything - and even
get a license for .50 machine-guns. Probably won't
even need that once Trump's people are in.
In the PAST I'd have said the UK was 'less hazardous'
and therefore less need for strong weapons ... but
the news the past several years .........
At minimum dude :
https://www.allbeststuff.com/chain-mail-armour/aluminum-brass-titanium-chain-mail-shirts/titanium-chain-mail-hauberks-the-strongest-chainmail-for-sca-full-contact-fighting
https://www.ringmesh.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Gears-Titanium-Chainmail-Riveted/dp/B00ZYYPNZE
On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
More Kant-ian.
His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the 'world-in-itself'
and how we perceive it. His point being that the objects we reify it into >>> are not actually there as discrete entities, they are simply how we
describe it to ourselves and to others.
Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship
doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting bits >>> of wood.
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and a >>> common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object after >>> having all of its original components replaced over time, typically one
after the other.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens,
rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur >>> and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians
would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to
honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: After
several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece of the >>> Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was it still the same >>> ship? )
Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If you >>> are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem because you >>> believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in reality.
I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem with
this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then make up
labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal heavens,
concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an sich is an absurd >> konzept an sich. If you postulate something which can never be known, it is >> kind of useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover
etc.
Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it
refers to. Meta data. A pointer.
Kant ?
Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.
OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......
BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
humming along with simple interaction rules -
cellular automata math.
Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.
But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 00:55:10 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the same stuff - but,
maybe for political reasons, left off the last paragraph or two.
Then he went off he deep end with Platonic realism and set Western thought
to chasing its tail for 2000 years.
On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>>> who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several years (and
upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
application builds from source, which grew tiresome.
Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot
of bad, in that. You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...
But I'm not 16 anymore.
I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
to move on. I finally settled on Debian.
Well, you COULD get past Unity ...
My biggest objections were the 'services' they kept
pushing hard - indeed could barely install it anymore
without signing up (shades of M$ !). They also changed
and/or moved around a LOT of config stuff for NO real
gain IMHO.
Deb - WAS the Solid Foundation - but suddenly became
just another 'Buntu.
So now it's Fedora and Arch derivs.
I've heard GenToo is kinda interesting ... and
there are always the BSDs.
This is not so good. I hope IBM won't kill redhat in the end.
Alas I think they will. As said, you are now IBMs
beta tester. This is valuable for working out a
number of kinks - but eventually the kinks will
be kinda dealt with. Then RH and its downstream
parasites will Go Away.
Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
a bunch of Canonical rejects .....
Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble musl
will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about actually
going back to some of my earliest experiments and try FreeBSD for day to
day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I only need some basics,
which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages, so if they fixed their wifi >> problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to run a small linux VM for a
working wifi driver) it could definitely be a serious option. Oh, and that >> would mean it doesn't drain the battery as well. But let's see. I think I
can stick with opensuse 15.6 for at least another 2-3 years, and then they >> might kill the project in favuor of some container based crap.
Deb WAS the Solid Foundation ... until now. It became
just another 'Buntu IMHO. Tragic !
The BSDs are "usable" - really Not Bad. However remember
they are Unix, not Linux, so a lot of little stuff is
different. They also tend to be a few years behind when
it comes to drivers. The real target is SERVERS, not
desktops.
OpenSUSE/Tumbleweed ... DID get it to run on a Pi-4,
albeit a bit clunky sometimes because it isn't a
"light" distro. Pi-5s are WEIRD ... can't even get
a Fedora for those even a year on. Apparently the
boot-up chain of events is a huge kludge. HAVE
found instructions - pages and pages and pages
of them - WAY too old for that shit and half of
it would probably disappear on the next update.
If you really want an alt, consider Arch and
derivs. Endeavour is nice. Manjaro works well
(but, like Tumbleweed, kinda updates the ENTIRE
system at the slightest change).
On 12/6/24 4:11 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an
outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say
creative and destructive energies.
To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'
WE make of it all as we will.
Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...
I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to disagree. >> I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate nature, laws and >> composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far science will take us. I
lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive empiricism.
IMHO, 'material' owns it - 'reality'-wise anyhow.
However the Quality Of Life depends on what we DO with that.
It generally stops of short agreeing to the Nietzschean extreme.
Sci-tech will eventually take us All The Way insofar as
power over our environment. But, again, how do we FEEL
such power and insight be used ?
If it was easy they'd have resolved all this 25,000
years ago.
The Buddha understood there was a Real World - but
WE could never ever really see/perceive it because
of what we were, how nature put us together, our
native environment, our IQ range. We will always
have a key-hole view, seeing things through
"human-colored glasses".
Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the
same stuff - but, maybe for political reasons, left
off the last paragraph or two.
ANYWAY, at the cold cold root - it's just all
superstrings hummin' ... calculating a 'reality'
as WE can sorta perceive it. Wolfram seems to
have grasped this.
If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.
On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him
so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give
an outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
More Kant-ian.
His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the
'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the
objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete entities,
they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to others.
Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship
doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting
bits of wood.
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox
and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same
object after having all of its original components replaced over
time, typically one after the other.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens,
rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the
Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the
Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage
to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient
philosophers: After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each
individual piece of the Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the
other, was it still the same ship? )
Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If
you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem
because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in
reality.
I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem
with this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then
make up labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal
heavens, concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an
sich is an absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which
can never be known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as
god, or a postulated first mover etc.
Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it
refers to. Meta data. A pointer.
Kant ?
Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.
OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......
BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
humming along with simple interaction rules -
cellular automata math.
Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.
But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him >>>>>>> so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give >>>>>>> an outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
More Kant-ian.
His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the
'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the
objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete
entities, they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to
others.
Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a
ship doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of
rotting bits of wood.
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox
and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same
object after having all of its original components replaced over
time, typically one after the other.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of
Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying
the Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year,
the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a
pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by
ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of
maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus were
replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship? )
Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this.
If you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a
problem because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus'
Ship' in reality.
I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem
with this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then
make up labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal
heavens, concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an
sich is an absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which
can never be known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as
god, or a postulated first mover etc.
Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that
it refers to. Meta data. A pointer.
Kant ?
Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.
OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......
BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
humming along with simple interaction rules -
cellular automata math.
Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.
But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...
If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in scientific circles?
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:
I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
mean,
a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
will)
determine the nature of it.
It's all water.
Nonsense! Ether!
Its not that the real world is not at some level most usefully
regarded as a fact, it is that the more subtle question is whether
what we *perceive* is in fact the real world *at all*. Or simply a
construction in our own minds that maps what is *actually* there
(maybe a probabilistic entangled quantum soup) into a recognisable
world of objects and events linked in space time by natural law and
causality.
I'd say it is an obvious fact and not a subtle question if we look at the limited spectrum of our senses, and our limited compute resources. I
think in terms of reality, it can be seen as a spectrum of probabilities about
things in the world. Many clever people cling to this, and think it
means that no world exists, or that nothing can be proven.
that, and say that any proposed alternatives to the real world should be proven, and if they are not, the real world is a perfectly reasonable
default assumption.
On 12/6/24 2:54 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:
I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
mean,
a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which
we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never
will)
determine the nature of it.
It's all water.
Containing turtles .... :-)
But larger cal is better for 'hunting'. 6.5mm to .30
for northern Europe. The old 6.5 Swedish is a great
cartridge.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:
Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that
theme. But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world >>> as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or
false.
Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats. Ultimately 'cat'
is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of anything.
https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf
Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...
Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his
position on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up and meditate". ;)
On the other hand, I do not know if this is what he actually thought, or
if it is just hearsay.
I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although
it was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that original buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.
Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that
is why it started to diverge over the millennia.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst
to me Natures best laxative...
Pear juice? Had no idea!
I do know though, that after enjoying fresh
pressed apple juice, most, if not all, store bought juice tastes awful.
I am also not a fan of the filtered apple juice you get on planes, which probably comes down to the previous statement.
do like opensuse, but their way of acting towards non-woke people, as reported on by Lunduke, really makes me want to stop supporting them.
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and
a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object
after having all of its original components replaced over time,
typically one after the other.
Last night somebody broke into my apartment and replaced
everything with exact duplicates. When I pointed it out
to my roommate, he said, "Do I know you?"
-- Steven Wright
This, milord, is my family's axe. We have owned it for
almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it
needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new
handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing
of the ornamentation... but is this not the nine-hundred-
year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed
gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y'know.
Pretty good.
-- Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant
And of course, our bodies go through much the same process.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
On 12/6/24 8:09 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 06:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 2:34 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 01:28:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Had a .44 Mag lever carbine - it was ideal for boar in dense brush >>>>> ... strong enough and easy to whip around real quick. The boar >>>>> hunts
YOU as much as you hunt IT. I think someone offers a .50 S&W
carbine/handgun combo now, but only use the handgun if you want >>>>> fused
wrists in yer old age
A friend bought a .454 Casull which was the big dog at the time. He was >>>> pissed when S&W upped the ante. I draw the line at .357 and even
then for
target practice I load closer to .38 Special specs.
.38 +P is about all ya need for general/defense work.
Just generally go for the lighter bullets, not the
traditional 158s. Fer sure those old "police loads"
did NOT impress.
NOT sure I'd like .357 for wild boar. It'd take TOO
perfect a hit. The .44 gives you a little slack.
I've fired a .454 ... and decided I didn't want to
fire one anymore. The .50 ... nah ! MAYbe for extra
large people. There's some point in there where you
go for a carbine/rifle.
Hmmmmmm ... if you necked-down the .50 to 10mm - a
sort of modernized 44/40. Might make a really good
revolver/carbine combo.
Interestingly in the UK we cannot use handguns at all. For anything
outside single shot target shooting at a registered range.
That's left-wing totalitarianism for you.
Alas, I think the UK is just about to go DOWN.
Hope you have a place way out in the countryside.
Legal firearms range from 12 gauge and even 20 gauge shotguns down
through 410 'crow guns' to game approved rifles. .22 is allowed for
small game like rabbits, but a .25 is mandatory for deer and many
people use larger.
Naturally Britain being a very small country with a lot of people,
strict codes of practice accompany game shooting. It is illegal to
shoot anything but bird shot upwards...
And you don't find this suspiciously Big Brotherish ?
WHO is being protected with all that - YOU ?
Try the USA. You can own almost anything - and even
get a license for .50 machine-guns. Probably won't
even need that once Trump's people are in.
In the PAST I'd have said the UK was 'less hazardous'
and therefore less need for strong weapons ... but
the news the past several years .........
At minimum dude :
https://www.allbeststuff.com/chain-mail-armour/aluminum-brass-titanium-chain-mail-shirts/titanium-chain-mail-hauberks-the-strongest-chainmail-for-sca-full-contact-fighting
https://www.ringmesh.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Gears-Titanium-Chainmail-Riveted/dp/B00ZYYPNZE
This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer and socialism.
After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will be a coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is now
with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden democrats.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 00:55:10 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the same stuff - but,
maybe for political reasons, left off the last paragraph or two.
Then he went off he deep end with Platonic realism and set Western thought
to chasing its tail for 2000 years.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/6/24 4:11 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him >>>>>>> so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give >>>>>>> an outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's
say creative and destructive energies.
To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'
WE make of it all as we will.
Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...
I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to
disagree. I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate
nature, laws and composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far
science will take us. I lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive
empiricism.
IMHO, 'material' owns it - 'reality'-wise anyhow.
However the Quality Of Life depends on what we DO with that.
It generally stops of short agreeing to the Nietzschean extreme.
Sci-tech will eventually take us All The Way insofar as
power over our environment. But, again, how do we FEEL
such power and insight be used ?
If it was easy they'd have resolved all this 25,000
years ago.
The Buddha understood there was a Real World - but
WE could never ever really see/perceive it because
of what we were, how nature put us together, our
native environment, our IQ range. We will always
have a key-hole view, seeing things through
"human-colored glasses".
Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the
same stuff - but, maybe for political reasons, left
off the last paragraph or two.
ANYWAY, at the cold cold root - it's just all
superstrings hummin' ... calculating a 'reality'
as WE can sorta perceive it. Wolfram seems to
have grasped this.
I pretty much agree with you. Not much to add. Interesting that this is
your interpretation of Nietzsche. Mine is very similar. I would add,
that Nietzsches philosophy is his own attempt, and that every person
needs to make it "his own".
Tying that to politics, I think it was Ludwig von Mises who wrote in his classic "Liberalism" (and this is liberalism in its original meaning,
not the bastardized US meaning of the term, so think libertarianism), somethings along the lines of...
Liberalism [libertarianism] is nothing more than the scientific view and method of how to structure society in such a way as to maximize material wealth and quality of life. Beyond maximizing material wealth, it makes
no other claims or sets no other goals.
So what you, as an individual, do with that wealth, if you use that to purchase time (work less) and what you fill that time with, is entirely
up to you.
I believe that this is why many people find libertarianism so scary.
They have no inherent sense of value or goals. They need the goals
pushed on them from the outside (equality, sustainability, be a cog
wheel in the machine of the nation, the prosperity and success of the
race, etc.) in order to feel meaning in their life.
When they have an ism that does not push any form of value, but only
wants to create time for people to flourish, since they are not self
directed from within, they cannot make any sense at all of it, and it
scares them at a deep level.
That is why I think that the human psychology is not really ready for libertarianism, as long as the majority of humans are drawn to religions
and isms in order for an external person to supply them with goals and values.
On 07/12/2024 10:26, D wrote:
do like opensuse, but their way of acting towards non-woke people, as
reported on by Lunduke, really makes me want to stop supporting them.
Go woke, go broke.
The Marxist termites have been burrowing through the fabric of society
on the 'long march through the institutions' since 1967.
Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
idiocracy begins.
Inevitably people who combine into less stupid and idealistic cohesions
will take over.
Possibly without any evident democracy. Hey ho, Twas ever thus...
On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
knee operations fail.
Sometimes fatally
On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of useless. >> It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.
And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary foundation of thinking.
All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand them.
The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>> me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
knee operations fail.
Sometimes fatally
How so? Infection?
I've had two hip replacements and have 3 plates holding up my neck.
I had one cervical plate put in years ago, and play soccer, often as goalkeeper. The hits to the head apparently lead to removal of the first plate
and the installation of 3.
The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:Dunno. Ask a 'gay'.
On 07/12/2024 10:26, D wrote:
do like opensuse, but their way of acting towards non-woke people, as
reported on by Lunduke, really makes me want to stop supporting them.
Go woke, go broke.
Woke derangement syndrome. Is one deranged for:
1 Completely altering the original, native meaning of the word?
2 Wanting to change now-loaded words used in technical contexts,Oh yes, definitely.
such as "master" and "slave"?
3 Whining about item 2?
The Marxist termites have been burrowing through the fabric of society
on the 'long march through the institutions' since 1967.
LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!
Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
idiocracy begins.
Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats?
Inevitably people who combine into less stupid and idealistic cohesions
will take over.
Possibly without any evident democracy. Hey ho, Twas ever thus...
Well, the pendulum does often swing... as in the Edgar Allen Poe story.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>>>> who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and
browsed the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an
install CD. I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up
starting out with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several
years (and upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required
lots of application builds from source, which grew tiresome.
Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot of bad, in that.
You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...
But I'm not 16 anymore.
Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind
_some_ tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16 anymore
and I have a business to run, so this I will remove from the list of
my opensuse replacements.
On 06/12/2024 20:40, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:
I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
mean,
a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of which >>>> we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably, never >>>> will)
determine the nature of it.
It's all water.
Nonsense! Ether!
Its all in the mind.
Whose mind? I cancel that question! MY mind!
On 07/12/2024 07:41, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an >>>>>>> outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
More Kant-ian.
His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the 'world-in-itself' >>>> and how we perceive it. His point being that the objects we reify it into >>>> are not actually there as discrete entities, they are simply how we
describe it to ourselves and to others.
Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship
doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting bits >>>> of wood.
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and a >>>> common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object
after having all of its original components replaced over time, typically >>>> one after the other.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens,
rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur >>>> and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians
would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to
honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: After
several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece of the >>>> Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was it still the same >>>> ship? )
Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If you >>>> are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem because >>>> you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in reality.
I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem with >>> this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then make up
labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal heavens,
concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an sich is an
absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which can never be
known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated >>> first mover etc.
Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it
refers to. Meta data. A pointer.
Kant ?
Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.
OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......
BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
humming along with simple interaction rules -
cellular automata math.
Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.
But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...
Well I don't apply the term materialistic as strictly to that kind of view.
Although he is still stuck with 'objects and events in space time linked by causality' .
He hasn't really changed his metaphysics at all, merely made it increasingly remote with yet more dimensions to explain why it seems to be the way it seems to be.
(Epicycles versus heliocentrism. You CAN do it all with epicycles, but sticking the sun in the middle is a co-ordinate transform that really makes it less shitty to calculate, as the Church accepted. What they didn't like was Galileo claiming it was 'true'. Because it isn't. It just works.)
And hasn't gone as far as seeing that all of the above are in fact emergent properties of the consciousness that uses them as foundations for its thinking to map what really is, into a digestible form.
Or rather that is in fact a far simpler way to arrive at a metaphysics that *works*.
Bohm did all that with his theory on an 'implicate order' behind quantum physics. Showing that if you postulated another realm, quantum effects could be the emergent properties of that.
And then testing the Bell inequality showed that at least that couldn't be the case for *local* variables.
Physicists and mathematicians have all been trying to 'save materialism' from the onslaught of the Quantum world. Until recently are they beginning to think 'let's say we scrap materialism and think of it as an emergent property...what then could be the underlying reality and why do we see it as other than it probably is'?
They are slowly getting there.
I can't find a very interesting talk held in an annex before a big physical society conference on you tube any more . I suspect it simply hasn't had enough you tube views because no one understood it. I almost did. Enough to stay the course.
Suffice to say the three participants were starting to think outside the materialistic box to find a solution to 'what quantum physics has to mean' etc.
Also Sean Carroll is a very good presenter of ideas in this area. Worth a listen to.
I think we are probably sue for a Kuhnian 'paradigm shift'
On 06/12/2024 17:24, D wrote:
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to me >>> Natures best laxative...
Pear juice? Had no idea!
Neither did I.
I do know though, that after enjoying fresh pressed apple juice, most, if
not all, store bought juice tastes awful.
Yes. Fresh pressed juice contains nothing to stop it becoming cider.,
I am also not a fan of the filtered apple juice you get on planes, which
probably comes down to the previous statement.
Store bought juice is simply another product...
On 07/12/2024 10:52, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an >>>>>>>> outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
More Kant-ian.
His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the 'world-in-itself' >>>>> and how we perceive it. His point being that the objects we reify it >>>>> into are not actually there as discrete entities, they are simply how we >>>>> describe it to ourselves and to others.
Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a ship >>>>> doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of rotting bits >>>>> of wood.
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and >>>>> a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object >>>>> after having all of its original components replaced over time,
typically one after the other.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens, >>>>> rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the
Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the >>>>> Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to >>>>> Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: >>>>> After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece >>>>> of the Ship of Theseus were replaced, one after the other, was it still >>>>> the same ship? )
Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this. If >>>>> you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a problem
because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus' Ship' in
reality.
I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem with >>>> this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then make up
labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal heavens,
concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an sich is an
absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which can never be
known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as god, or a
postulated first mover etc.
Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that it >>>>> refers to. Meta data. A pointer.
Kant ?
Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.
OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......
BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
humming along with simple interaction rules -
cellular automata math.
Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.
But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...
If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in
scientific circles?
Read 186282@ud0s4.net's exact words.
"prove that our "physics" *can* be"...
...Anything.
It's a bit like 'With enough terms in a polynomial I can draw an elephant'. True, but moderately useless.
The first point that is relevant is the linkage between facts, and theories. Science *presupposes* that invisible eternal and immutable Laws of Nature (more digestible than Gods Demons or Elohim) guide events to inevitable conclusions, given the exact starting points. And the business of science is to 'discover' what those laws are.
Or at least that was roughly the Newtonian worldview.
It came under attack beginning with a clearer exposition of a logical flaw in how we arrived at these theories.
Hume expressed it as the 'problem of induction' . That is the inability to derive general rules from specific instances. The sun rose today. It always has, but does that mean it always will?
And we can extend that uncertainty into general rules of inference by stating categorically that in the case of certain events happening, there are both an infinite number of *possible* 'causes' as well as an infinite number of *impossible* ones.
And science is a collection of possible ones. Not as most people think, of *facts*.
And what is deemed possible is subjective. To some people the idea of injecting microchips into your brain to control your thinking is plausible.
So the fact that some one 'proved something' *could* be *possible*, means absolutely nothing.
If the something is vague enough and untestable it's basically pseudo scientific bullshit.
What a theory has to do is to explain something in a testable way that differs from how it was explained before, and is more accurate in describing the world.
Then scientists get interested. Einstein's theories accounted for gravity as we then understood it but gave corrections to things we had measured that didn't quite fit, as well. It worked better than Newtonian but it was radically and shockingly different.
And a great loosening of the conviction that theories uncovered truths, to an understanding that they were *plausible constructions that worked*, only.
And a better understanding of Occam in that the simplest idea no longer represented the truth, it was just that , in an infinity of possibilities, inventing complicated ones where simple ones were just as good, was mere posturing and intellectual flatulence.
And that is the problem with string theory. It could be right but it brings nothing to the party. So why bother?
So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms
to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a
bunch of nice stories.
On 07/12/2024 10:20, D wrote:
There are states of mind that can be achieved that clarify why people started talking about gods and spirits and other realms in the first place.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:
Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that >>>> theme. But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real world >>>> as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or
false.
Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats. Ultimately 'cat' >>> is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of anything.
https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf
Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...
Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his position >> on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up and meditate". ;) >>
On the other hand, I do not know if this is what he actually thought, or if >> it is just hearsay.Does it matter?
The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or meaningless event.
The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the reality of words to a reality beyond them.
I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although it >> was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that originalBuddhism is what one bloke said after he had successfully stopped his mind from thinking but yet wasn't actually unconscious. And a set of instructions on how to copy his techniques.
buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.
I met a guy once who spent a long time doing that, who had also taken LSD He claimed that 'the end result is the same, but the LSD is much easier, and a bit more dangerous'.
:-)
Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the
techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that is >> why it started to diverge over the millennia.
Yes. If you regard the primary purpose as detaching the consciousness from the intricate entanglement with ordinary affairs, which as far as I am concerned is all that it is, then the method will differ for each individual since their involvements all differ.
Stopping the incessant flow of internal conversation is the name of the game, and it's (meditation) not the only way to do that. Trauma does it.
Isolation and asceticism does it. Self punishment (flagellation) allegedly does it. Even lack of sleep does it. Some drugs do it.
The thing is... should we ever prove any of it, which is not done, it
will all just be added to our concept of the "material world" (caveat
emptor, and definitions aside) and expand it and enrich our model of it.
On 07/12/2024 10:26, D wrote:
do like opensuse, but their way of acting towards non-woke people, as
reported on by Lunduke, really makes me want to stop supporting them.
Go woke, go broke.
The Marxist termites have been burrowing through the fabric of society on the 'long march through the institutions' since 1967.
Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or idiocracy begins.
Inevitably people who combine into less stupid and idealistic cohesions will take over.
Possibly without any evident democracy. Hey ho, Twas ever thus...
On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>> me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.
I went to her funeral.
Other people end up with amputations.
Hip replacements are very successful though.
Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver antibiotics to the wound site
On 07/12/2024 10:43, D wrote:
This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer and
socialism.
After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will be a
coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is now
with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden democrats.
I pretty much agree with that.
The tories had forgot to be conservative, and so they got kicked out. The socialists are predictably beyond incompetence, and in 4 years time they will go.
I am not sure what the outcome will be but the country needs, wants, and will ultimately vote for, an end to wokeness and political ideology and a return to some sort of competent management...
Kemi Badenoch is making all the right noises for the Tories, but can she repair the damage?
On 07/12/2024 10:50, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/6/24 4:11 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 7:17 AM, D wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him so >>>>>>>> fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give an >>>>>>>> outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
I think you know what I mean. In order to avoid nitpicking, let's say >>>>>> creative and destructive energies.
To "Nature" ... I think it's all just superstrings hummin'
WE make of it all as we will.
Joe Alien ... he many have entirely different ideas ...
I know. Natural and I have discussed this violently and agreed to
disagree. I'm a huge fan of the material world. As for the ultimate
nature, laws and composition, I am agnostic, and we'll see how far
science will take us. I lean towards instrumentalism/cognitive
empiricism.
IMHO, 'material' owns it - 'reality'-wise anyhow.
However the Quality Of Life depends on what we DO with that.
It generally stops of short agreeing to the Nietzschean extreme.
Sci-tech will eventually take us All The Way insofar as
power over our environment. But, again, how do we FEEL
such power and insight be used ?
If it was easy they'd have resolved all this 25,000
years ago.
The Buddha understood there was a Real World - but
WE could never ever really see/perceive it because
of what we were, how nature put us together, our
native environment, our IQ range. We will always
have a key-hole view, seeing things through
"human-colored glasses".
Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the
same stuff - but, maybe for political reasons, left
off the last paragraph or two.
ANYWAY, at the cold cold root - it's just all
superstrings hummin' ... calculating a 'reality'
as WE can sorta perceive it. Wolfram seems to
have grasped this.
I pretty much agree with you. Not much to add. Interesting that this is
your interpretation of Nietzsche. Mine is very similar. I would add, that
Nietzsches philosophy is his own attempt, and that every person needs to
make it "his own".
Tying that to politics, I think it was Ludwig von Mises who wrote in his
classic "Liberalism" (and this is liberalism in its original meaning, not
the bastardized US meaning of the term, so think libertarianism),
somethings along the lines of...
Liberalism [libertarianism] is nothing more than the scientific view and
method of how to structure society in such a way as to maximize material
wealth and quality of life. Beyond maximizing material wealth, it makes no >> other claims or sets no other goals.
So what you, as an individual, do with that wealth, if you use that to
purchase time (work less) and what you fill that time with, is entirely up >> to you.
I believe that this is why many people find libertarianism so scary. They
have no inherent sense of value or goals. They need the goals pushed on
them from the outside (equality, sustainability, be a cog wheel in the
machine of the nation, the prosperity and success of the race, etc.) in
order to feel meaning in their life.
When they have an ism that does not push any form of value, but only wants >> to create time for people to flourish, since they are not self directed
from within, they cannot make any sense at all of it, and it scares them at >> a deep level.
That is why I think that the human psychology is not really ready for
libertarianism, as long as the majority of humans are drawn to religions
and isms in order for an external person to supply them with goals and
values.
I think this hits the nail on the head. Socialism now occupies the space left by the demise of Christianity.
A sharp Jewish girlfriend of mine once observed that 'the people need to be told what is right and what is wrong, and how they should behave otherwise they simply don't know what to do'
But they are increasingly realising that socialism too, has feet of clay.
And I do not entirely agree that people cannot accept a reality without ideology.
Libertarianism/pragmatism/conservatism can simply say that it deliberately restricts its activities to ensuring law, order, prosperity and social stability and is 'ultra vires' when it comes to determining moral behaviour.
And leave that to religion or the BBC
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, but, >>>>>>> who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40 >>>>>> floppies.
When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and
browsed the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an
install CD. I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up
starting out with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several
years (and upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required
lots of application builds from source, which grew tiresome.
Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot of bad, in that.
You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...
But I'm not 16 anymore.
Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind
_some_ tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16 anymore
and I have a business to run, so this I will remove from the list of
my opensuse replacements.
Don't take the word of our nymshift troll 100%. Yes, Slackware is more
hands on than a full on "hold your hand, you are an idiot" distro such
as Ubuntu. But it is a far cry better than it was back in the "50
floppies to install days". A default install of slack 15, picking "everything" gives you in most cases on normal hardware a working
useful system -- and if you leave KDE "on" in the list of "everything"
even gets you a "hold your hand, you are an idiot" desktop environment
too.
Where Slackware is more 'raw' than a Unbuntu is that if you want to
modify, say, your default name search path or default name server, you
simply edit /etc/resolv.conf instead of launching whatever GUI
'configurator' it is that Ubuntu provides to poke at tabs and entries
to make the change.
And for that one, the install script asks you for the details as part
of the install, so if you give the correct data at that time (same data
you'd poke into the Ubuntu GUI configurator) then you don't even need
to edit /etc/resolv.conf.
There's an old quote that came about from the net long ago:
Learn Ubuntu and you learn Ubuntu, learn Slackware and you learn Linux.
On 07/12/2024 15:18, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:Mainly as I understand it, yes.
On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>>> me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
knee operations fail.
Sometimes fatally
How so? Infection?
I've had two hip replacements and have 3 plates holding up my neck.Hips are far more successful, >95% no problems at all
I had one cervical plate put in years ago, and play soccer, often asAgain, not problematic.
goalkeeper. The hits to the head apparently lead to removal of the first plate
and the installation of 3.
LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!
I guess you are one after all.
Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
idiocracy begins.
Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats?
Idiocrats *and* anarchists
And its the Left who are going to get sliced into bacon.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 20:40, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:23:09 +0100, D wrote:
I once experimented with the concept of agnostic monism, by which I
mean,
a unified underlying construction or explanation of the world (of
which
we are a part), but, that we cannot (at the moment, and probably,
never
will)
determine the nature of it.
It's all water.
Nonsense! Ether!
Its all in the mind.
Whose mind? I cancel that question! MY mind!
Or would that be just.... mind? ;)
If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in scientific circles?
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot of bad, in
that. You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...
But I'm not 16 anymore.
Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind
_some_ tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16
anymore and I have a business to run, so this I will remove from
the list of my opensuse replacements.
Don't take the word of our nymshift troll 100%. Yes, Slackware is
more hands on than a full on "hold your hand, you are an idiot"
distro such as Ubuntu. But it is a far cry better than it was back
in the "50 floppies to install days". A default install of slack
15, picking "everything" gives you in most cases on normal hardware
a working useful system -- and if you leave KDE "on" in the list of
"everything" even gets you a "hold your hand, you are an idiot"
desktop environment too.
Where Slackware is more 'raw' than a Unbuntu is that if you want to
modify, say, your default name search path or default name server, you
simply edit /etc/resolv.conf instead of launching whatever GUI
'configurator' it is that Ubuntu provides to poke at tabs and entries
to make the change.
Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)
Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my machines!
=D
And for that one, the install script asks you for the details as
part of the install, so if you give the correct data at that time
(same data you'd poke into the Ubuntu GUI configurator) then you
don't even need to edit /etc/resolv.conf.
There's an old quote that came about from the net long ago:
Learn Ubuntu and you learn Ubuntu, learn Slackware and you learn Linux.
I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the config
file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that the
teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to manage
linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing them to
miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how it was
design to work. =(
It would hardly be the first time in human history that we go through
some kind of dark age, only to come out of it and eventually pick up
speed towards new highs.
I think perhaps the future consists of multi-polar, virtual communities, hiding in plain sight. The wokists do their thing, crash a society or
two, get thrown out, things start to improve, until the next group comes along, generating an anti-group and so on.
Meanwhile, in cyberspace, all the cool kids gather, learn, help each
other out.
Of course, since we have about 190+ countries or so, some will be more successful than others, and the interesting thing there is if they will
be pressured by the failing ones to submit and share their wealth or if
they will manage to somehow stay independent. I think the size of them
would determine the outcome. Monaco and Liechtenstein have been able to survive longer than some modern european democracies, so it is not impossible, although difficult.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:20, D wrote:
There are states of mind that can be achieved that clarify why people
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:
Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on that >>>>> theme. But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the real
world
as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics, math, true or >>>>> false.
Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats. Ultimately
'cat'
is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of anything.
https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf >>>>
Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...
Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his
position on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up
and meditate". ;)
started talking about gods and spirits and other realms in the first
place.
On the other hand, I do not know if this is what he actually thought,Does it matter?
or if it is just hearsay.
The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense,
in that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible
or meaningless event.
The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
reality of words to a reality beyond them.
I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, andBuddhism is what one bloke said after he had successfully stopped his
although it was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was
that original buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating,
so heavily meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.
mind from thinking but yet wasn't actually unconscious. And a set of
instructions on how to copy his techniques.
I met a guy once who spent a long time doing that, who had also taken
LSD He claimed that 'the end result is the same, but the LSD is much
easier, and a bit more dangerous'.
:-)
Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor
the techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with,
and that is why it started to diverge over the millennia.
Yes. If you regard the primary purpose as detaching the consciousness
from the intricate entanglement with ordinary affairs, which as far as
I am concerned is all that it is, then the method will differ for each
individual since their involvements all differ.
Stopping the incessant flow of internal conversation is the name of
the game, and it's (meditation) not the only way to do that. Trauma
does it. Isolation and asceticism does it. Self punishment
(flagellation) allegedly does it. Even lack of sleep does it. Some
drugs do it.
I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death experiences as well.
That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms are
now starting to become so common, if there's something to be gained by
doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind with external
drugs?
The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about underground trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again.
Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for decades,
and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving man, with enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and helping people.
The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his dose
of spirituality.
Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the other method?
I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an
underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards he
felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even hesitated
to kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect started to
wear off as life came back.
I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.
For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)
Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And
unbeknownst to
me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no
idea they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.
I went to her funeral.
Other people end up with amputations.
Hip replacements are very successful though.
Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver
antibiotics to the wound site
Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of
life, my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having
struggled with very painful cancer treatment for several years.
Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam. Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.
The richer we become, the less of a grip socialism has on the lower
classes.
That is why they are scrambling for new fronts such as the environment
and immigration (import a new lower class and start again from the 1800:s).
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Og she is tough. And at some level a software engineer too. I rather
On 07/12/2024 10:43, D wrote:
This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer and
socialism.
After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will
be a
coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is
now with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden
democrats.
I pretty much agree with that.
The tories had forgot to be conservative, and so they got kicked out.
The socialists are predictably beyond incompetence, and in 4 years
time they will go.
I am not sure what the outcome will be but the country needs, wants,
and will ultimately vote for, an end to wokeness and political
ideology and a return to some sort of competent management...
Kemi Badenoch is making all the right noises for the Tories, but can
she repair the damage?
I'd say it depends on how much of a fighter she is.
She needs to kick
out the old guard, and start afresh. She also needs to balance and
respect the wishes of Farage.
the swedish coalition has lasted more than
2 years now, and that coalition includes the swedish (socialist) liberal party who are so afraid of losing their seats (and money) in a new
election, that they have been bullied to "shut up" by the nationalists.
They have 2.8% and the nationalists have about 20%, so they are always
saying "let's do it, let's have an election and see if you will last".
This threat is remarkably effective at stopping the (socialist) liberal
party from toppling the coalition.
The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:I think I learnt that from Marxism
LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!
I guess you are one after all.
You seem to come to conclusions based on little to no evidence.
Idiocrats *and* anarchistsNow they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
idiocracy begins.
Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats? >>
Thank you for that admission.
And its the Left who are going to get sliced into bacon.
How about centrists like myself?
You sure have a way with violent turns of phrase.
To do that level of damage requires a bit more than even a high velocity
.22 can manage. I believe those have a tendency to go straight through.
I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although
it was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that original buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.
Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that
is why it started to diverge over the millennia.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.
I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about humans.
Plato's "Allegory of the cave" kinda touched on the same stuff - but,
maybe for political reasons, left off the last paragraph or two.
The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in
that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or meaningless event.
The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
reality of words to a reality beyond them.
For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)
On 07/12/2024 10:20, D wrote:
There are states of mind that can be achieved that clarify why
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:
Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on
that theme. But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the
real world as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics,
math, true or false.
Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats.
Ultimately 'cat' is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of
anything.
https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf
Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...
Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his
position on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up
and meditate". ;)
people started talking about gods and spirits and other realms in the
first place.
On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
knee operations fail.
Sometimes fatally
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:43:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in
that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or
meaningless event.
The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
reality of words to a reality beyond them.
The koans are criticized and being meaningless riddles. otoh you have Heidegger trying to talk about things that can't be talked about with neologisms.
We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some
experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.
But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?
On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>> me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
knee operations fail.
Sometimes fatally
Sepsis is always bad news. But there are a lot of measures being
taken to avoid this.
I think things are a lot better nowadays. Our local hospital seems
to have it down to a science, and I've heard far more success stories
than failures.
As for me, I'm on my second day after the procedure. I'm kicking back
and relaxing, and doing those stretching exercises to get things back
to normal. It'll take a while. Painkillers help.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:20, D wrote:
There are states of mind that can be achieved that clarify why
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:09:11 +0100, D wrote:
Don't even go there. Natural and I had very lively discussions on
that theme. But yes, I'm in the camp of the people who accept the
real world as a fact, and that without humans, there's no ethics,
math, true or false.
Buddhism has the concept of two truths, conventional and ultimate.
Conventionally I went out this morning to feed two cats.
Ultimately 'cat' is a construct I imposed and there aren't two of
anything.
https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/heart_sutra.pdf >>>>
Nietzsche condensed into a couple of hundred Chinese ideograms...
Buddha seems to have been far ahead of his time. I really like his
position on god, that instead of speculating, they should "shut up
and meditate". ;)
people started talking about gods and spirits and other realms in the
first place.
Some portion of the "why" for gods and spirits can also be seen from
the Arthur C. Clarke quote:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic".
To proto-humans, living in caves, with predators at every turn,
something like the lightning from a thunderstorm would seem to be an "unimaginably advanced technology" and so appear as "magic" and in
order to try to "explain" its existence it becomes easy to pass it off
as some "sky spirit" that is "unhappy" with what Grog did earlier
today. Let that continue for a millenia and you get all the modern
'sky spirits' that continue to be followed by many today.
We, today, understand lightning as just a huge static electricity
discharge. But that understanding rests on a lot of "shoulders of
giants" along the way to the scientific discoverys necessary to
understand why it occurs.
And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE students,
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.
I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about humans.
On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some
experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.
But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?
Because democracy is also ending in failure.
There's probably a good essay someone could write around the concept
of the Final Vote. That's when a democratic society decides to vote
away their freedom and install a dictator.
On 07/12/2024 16:42, D wrote:
The thing is... should we ever prove any of it, which is not done, it will >> all just be added to our concept of the "material world" (caveat emptor,
and definitions aside) and expand it and enrich our model of it.
That is your credo - your religion.
I do not ascribe to it.
Already quantum physics makes the 'material world' some sort of emergent property of a natural dice throwing quagmire of sub atomicity. To the point where calling it a 'material world' seems a bit impertinent.
I merely say that to consider that the material world is just an emergent property of quantum soup *and* human consciousness, is more flexible and useful..
I don't 'believe it to be 'true' because I cant believe *anything* to be true.
It's models, not turtles, all the way down. Models whose sole justification is that they work well enough for us to think them and not die prematurely.
That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying externality... quantum, arguments we've been through before...
I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your thinking.
On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms to >> make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a bunch of
nice stories.
Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position here.
What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
Do a persons hurt feelings 'really exist'? Or are they just pulling your strings?
Metaphysics is the study of the assumptions we make about everything in order to be able to describe and manipulate things.
If your metaphysics and your language doesn't have room for the 50 kinds of snow that some arctic cultures can claim exists, do those types of snow exist for you? No. Do they exist at all? Arguable. It's just 'snow'.
It is clear you have no idea what metaphysics means and are confusing it with mysticism and religion.
Sure, religion is a form of metaphysics, but *so is science*.
Religion is the study of a world that includes a supernatural component. Science is the study of one that does not.
The question of whether or not there is a supernatural component is proved by neither. In the end you assume what you assume, have faith in it and proceed to collect $200 and avoid going to jail, so to speak.
I have no intrinsic problem with 'materialism' apart from the fact that like religion, it is a remarkably narrow and exclusive view and wholly unsatisfactory in the limit, and like religion, insists it is the One True Fact.
I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near deathThe ultimate trauma...
experiences as well.
That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms are now >> starting to become so common, if there's something to be gained by doing it >> the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind with external drugs?Depends on the person. Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact...
There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then unable to cope with daily life.
"Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After enlightenment chopping wood, fetching water"
:-)
The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about undergroundBliss junkies.
trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again.
It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out with that for my last operation. Wow!
Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for decades, and >> then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving man, with enormous >> compassion, continuing with his meditation and helping people.Indeed.
The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his dose of >> spirituality.Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.
There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.
Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the otherDepends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive any drug. But weak people are attracted.
method?
I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to anPsychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution, but your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they are a tool to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the modification will hold.
underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards he
felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even hesitated to
kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect started to wear off >> as life came back.
This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely permanently 'enlightened'
I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.
For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)
"In my life, I have travelled many paths,
into the bush and out of it
But I am not anywhere.
For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart
On any path with heart
And their I travel looking breathlessly"
"But how can one know a path with heart?"
"Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question"
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:52:04 +0100, D wrote:
If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in
scientific circles?
I feel left out. The Wiki blurb said the Wolfram language was included on
the Raspberry Pi. As far as I can tell that applied to Raspian but not the Raspberry Pi OS. I don't need another rabbit hole anyway.
Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)
Yes. Slackware is the nearest to just being Linux of all the distros
(that install Linux, some of the FreeBSD's may be similar). If your preference is to edit /etc/resolv.conf to adjust your default name
server, and edit /etc/init.d to change the default bootup, and so
forth, it is more what you may be looking for than the others (all of
which add varing levels a "you are an idiot, here let me hold your hand
via this custom GUI" system on top).
Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my machines!
=D
Tis free to download, and you can install it into a VM if you wish to
'test out' at first (and don't have a spare machine to devote to
'testout').
It also is one of the few left that is systemd free. And instead of
the SYSV infinite field of symlinks for init, Slackware uses BSD style
rc.d scripts (actual scripts you can edit). The provenance of SYSV
sysmlink fields means it also will support those if you want, but the
default is actual scripts that execute other scripts.
And for that one, the install script asks you for the details as
part of the install, so if you give the correct data at that time
(same data you'd poke into the Ubuntu GUI configurator) then you
don't even need to edit /etc/resolv.conf.
There's an old quote that came about from the net long ago:
Learn Ubuntu and you learn Ubuntu, learn Slackware and you learn Linux.
I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the config
file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that the
teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to manage
linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing them to
miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how it was
design to work. =(
And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE students,
who only "know Ubuntu" (assuming they used Ubuntu) and the "Ubuntu way"
and if tossed into a "non Ubuntu" system, become lost, because they
really did not learn how things worked behind the "lipstick on a pig
GUI".
On 07/12/2024 17:24, D wrote:
It would hardly be the first time in human history that we go through some >> kind of dark age, only to come out of it and eventually pick up speed
towards new highs.
I think perhaps the future consists of multi-polar, virtual communities,
hiding in plain sight. The wokists do their thing, crash a society or two, >> get thrown out, things start to improve, until the next group comes along, >> generating an anti-group and so on.
A quick glance at the 'iron law of oligarchy' is revealing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy
Or get cancelled because their views represent a threat to the established elites.
Meanwhile, in cyberspace, all the cool kids gather, learn, help each other >> out.
Of course, since we have about 190+ countries or so, some will be more
successful than others, and the interesting thing there is if they will be >> pressured by the failing ones to submit and share their wealth or if they
will manage to somehow stay independent. I think the size of them would
determine the outcome. Monaco and Liechtenstein have been able to survive
longer than some modern european democracies, so it is not impossible,
although difficult.
One of the great reasons I dislike the European Union is precisely because it seeks to impose, by force, a monolithic 'European culture' whereas in times of crisis, the last thing you want is to be on a ship with no watertight doors - if the ship gets holed, down we all go.
We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.
But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:27:09 +0100, D wrote:
Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatment/total-knee-replacement/
Pretty common. I know a couple of people who have had it. Not a
replacement but I have a gamma nail in my hip after a fall on ice a couple
of years ago. The rehab took a couple of months but I have not problem
hiking or doing my usual activities. It doesn't let me forget it's there though.
When I was a kid my grandmother broke her hip. They might as well have
taken her out and shot her. The mechanical aspects of medical technology
have really made progress. I'm not sure about the drugs.
On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>>>> me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative, >>>>> at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea >>>> they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.
I went to her funeral.
Other people end up with amputations.
Hip replacements are very successful though.
Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver antibiotics >>> to the wound site
Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of life, >> my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having struggled with >> very painful cancer treatment for several years.
Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic incurable conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and keep going. Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.
On 07/12/2024 17:30, D wrote:
Og she is tough. And at some level a software engineer too. I rather like her.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:43, D wrote:
This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer andI pretty much agree with that.
socialism.
After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will be a >>>> coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is now >>>> with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden democrats. >>>
The tories had forgot to be conservative, and so they got kicked out. The >>> socialists are predictably beyond incompetence, and in 4 years time they >>> will go.
I am not sure what the outcome will be but the country needs, wants, and >>> will ultimately vote for, an end to wokeness and political ideology and a >>> return to some sort of competent management...
Kemi Badenoch is making all the right noises for the Tories, but can she >>> repair the damage?
I'd say it depends on how much of a fighter she is.
She needs to kick out the old guard, and start afresh. She also needs to
balance and respect the wishes of Farage.
Farage is just a spokesman. He represents people he has talked to. He has no wishes as such. And sadly, because I like the bloke, he is drifting out of touch.
There is more wrong than uncontrolled immigration
the swedish coalition has lasted more than 2 years now, and that coalition >> includes the swedish (socialist) liberal party who are so afraid of losing >> their seats (and money) in a new election, that they have been bullied to
"shut up" by the nationalists.
Bullying socialists should be an Olympic sport.
They have 2.8% and the nationalists have about 20%, so they are always
saying "let's do it, let's have an election and see if you will last". This >> threat is remarkably effective at stopping the (socialist) liberal party
from toppling the coalition.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.
I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about humans.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought
forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's
just a bunch of nice stories.
Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position
here.
What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the material world.
On 07/12/2024 17:33, D wrote:
The richer we become, the less of a grip socialism has on the lower
classes.
That is why they are scrambling for new fronts such as the environment and >> immigration (import a new lower class and start again from the 1800:s).
A novel perspective.
Socialism relies on fresh victims to champion (but never actually fix), their victimhood., If they cease to be victims, why would they support Socialism?
On 07/12/2024 17:44, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:I think I learnt that from Marxism
LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!
I guess you are one after all.
You seem to come to conclusions based on little to no evidence.
I dount you are a centrist. I suspect you are simply a shade to thee right of Trotsky
Idiocrats *and* anarchistsNow they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
idiocracy begins.
Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats? >>>
Thank you for that admission.
And its the Left who are going to get sliced into bacon.
How about centrists like myself?
You sure have a way with violent turns of phrase.
I learnt it from the Marxists
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:42, D wrote:
The thing is... should we ever prove any of it, which is not done, it
will all just be added to our concept of the "material world" (caveat
emptor, and definitions aside) and expand it and enrich our model of it.
That is your credo - your religion.
I do not ascribe to it.
And I respect that. I disagree, it is not a religion, it is a
description of the real world we actually live in, that is reality.
I know you do not ascribe to it. You have not managed to persuade me of
your point, and likewise, I have not persuaded you of my point.
I agree to disgree. Do you? ;)
Already quantum physics makes the 'material world' some sort of
emergent property of a natural dice throwing quagmire of sub
atomicity. To the point where calling it a 'material world' seems a
bit impertinent.
I merely say that to consider that the material world is just an
emergent property of quantum soup *and* human consciousness, is more
flexible and useful..
Regardless, it is still part of an expanding material world. When I say material, you need to stop thinking "material" and start thinking about reality as a totality, that we get to know better and better.
Quantum mechanics can progress, we are all energy, or strings, I really
do not care, because that is just part of our material world, that we
explore through the method and process of science.
It doesn't matter how hard one twists or turns, or looks to quantum theorists, what ever they find out, will just enlarge our understanding
of the material world, or the universe, or the totality or what ever you
want to call it.
I don't 'believe it to be 'true' because I cant believe *anything* to
be true.
That is a self refuting position. Because that statement in itself,
would be a truth you do subscribe to.
It's models, not turtles, all the way down. Models whose sole
justification is that they work well enough for us to think them and
not die prematurely.
True. But a model does not imply that there is no material world. In
fact, the success of our models is a strong proof of a material world.
That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying... quantum, arguments we've been through before...
externality
I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your
thinking.
I think that is insulting. Stop ascribing motivations or putting words
in my mouth. If you do not, I will reverse the process, and we will end
up killfiling each other or angrily ignoring each other. I would not
like for that to happen.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:20:51 +0100, D wrote:
I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although
it was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that original
buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.
Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the
techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that
is why it started to diverge over the millennia.
There are many flavors. The original Theravada wasn't speculative.
https://sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits013.htm
Mahayana picked up a lot of Hindu metaphysics and became more ornate. The Tibetan branch really gets into it. But then it circles back with Ch'an
and Zen to become more stripped down.
Of course in common practice you get the usual mythology and rituals.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:43:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in
that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or
meaningless event.
The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
reality of words to a reality beyond them.
The koans are criticized and being meaningless riddles. otoh you have Heidegger trying to talk about things that can't be talked about with neologisms.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near deathThe ultimate trauma...
experiences as well.
Yes, and boy is it fascinating!
That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushroomsDepends on the person. Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or
are now starting to become so common, if there's something to be
gained by doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind
with external drugs?
revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact...
True. I would very much like to try, but I have madness in the distant
family
and I do not want to take any risk of jarring the good, old brain since
it might
be latent in me.
There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then
unable to cope with daily life.
This is another interesting thought experiment. We tend to sanctify saints, saying they are the paragon of humanity. But would all of us becoing saints really be a good end station for humanity?
If I look at monks and monasteries, they decide (for the love of
humanity) to
move away and pray. If you look at saintly figures among the monks (the
"rock
stars" of spirituality) they tend to withdraw even more, and the
brothers take
care of them.
Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human
species would
just slowly fade away.
"Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After
enlightenment chopping wood, fetching water"
:-)
True. From where is that quote?
The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about undergroundBliss junkies.
trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again.
It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out
with that for my last operation. Wow!
Yes, it does sound like junkies. They are only there for the instant
effects,
and not for the goal (to find god). I think, but am not sure, that buddha strongly warned against blissful states, spiritual experiences, esp and
so on,
and said "just keep on meditating and do not let yourself be distracted by that".
It would make a lot of sense if that is what he said, and it would also
make me
think that in fact, bliss junkies is exactly what they are, and that it
might
actually be harmful for them in the long run, even though they run around feeling bliss all day.
Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation forIndeed.
decades, and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving
man, with enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and
helping people.
The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get hisOr down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.
dose of spirituality.
There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't
guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad
one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.
I think transpersonal psychology and psychedelic therapy are trying to mitigate
that, and make it for "everyone" by carefully monitoring the process and
the
doseages.
Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or theDepends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive
other method?
any drug. But weak people are attracted.
Only one way to find out! ;)
I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to anPsychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find
underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards
he felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even
hesitated to kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect
started to wear off as life came back.
alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution,
but your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they
are a tool to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the
modification will hold.
I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering
your ego,
jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like the gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug, might
shake it
a bit so it becomes unstuck?
This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely
permanently 'enlightened'
True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
life
was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they would
go to
heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the church didn't forbid
that way of "hacking the system"! ;)
I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.
For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)
"In my life, I have travelled many paths,
into the bush and out of it
But I am not anywhere.
For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart
On any path with heart
And their I travel looking breathlessly"
"But how can one know a path with heart?"
"Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question"
From where is this quote?
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 17:57:36 +0100, D wrote:
For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)
Try Nagarjuna's tetralemma. His Mūlamadhyamakakārikā[ is good for a little mind bending.
On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to >>>> me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
knee operations fail.
Sometimes fatally
Sepsis is always bad news. But there are a lot of measures being
taken to avoid this.
I think things are a lot better nowadays. Our local hospital seems
to have it down to a science, and I've heard far more success stories
than failures.
As for me, I'm on my second day after the procedure. I'm kicking back
and relaxing, and doing those stretching exercises to get things back
to normal. It'll take a while. Painkillers help.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on >>>>>>> seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And
unbeknownst to
me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative, >>>>>> at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no
idea they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.
I went to her funeral.
Other people end up with amputations.
Hip replacements are very successful though.
Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver
antibiotics to the wound site
Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of
life, my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having
struggled with very painful cancer treatment for several years.
Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic
incurable conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and
keep going. Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.
I will pray for that they might chance from incurable to curable with
some great scientific leaps in the future!
On 2024-12-07, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE students,
I hear that there are now additional certifications beyond MSCE and MSCD:
MSCC - Microsoft Certified Crashers
MSCB - Microsoft Certified Buyers
On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some
experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.
But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?
Because democracy is also ending in failure.
There's probably a good essay someone could write around the concept
of the Final Vote. That's when a democratic society decides to vote
away their freedom and install a dictator.
I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering
your ego,
jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like
the gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug,
might shake it a bit so it becomes unstuck?
True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
life was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they
would go to heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the
church didn't forbid that way of "hacking the system"!
Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human
species would just slowly fade away.
On 2024-12-07, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.
I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about
humans.
Sounds like 21st-century oligarchs.
How come? Is it like a thing you feel constantly? Doesn't that get
annoying or is it more that you feel it if you consciously look for it,
but you otherwise forget it?
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)
Yes. Slackware is the nearest to just being Linux of all the
distros (that install Linux, some of the FreeBSD's may be similar).
If your preference is to edit /etc/resolv.conf to adjust your
default name server, and edit /etc/init.d to change the default
bootup, and so forth, it is more what you may be looking for than
the others (all of which add varing levels a "you are an idiot, here
let me hold your hand via this custom GUI" system on top).
Sounds great! =)
Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my
machines! =D
Tis free to download, and you can install it into a VM if you wish
to 'test out' at first (and don't have a spare machine to devote to
'testout').
It also is one of the few left that is systemd free. And instead of
the SYSV infinite field of symlinks for init, Slackware uses BSD
style rc.d scripts (actual scripts you can edit). The provenance of
SYSV sysmlink fields means it also will support those if you want,
but the default is actual scripts that execute other scripts.
Oh my... it just keeps getting better and better!! How come it
hasn't gotten any attention at all??
I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to slckware to escape their systemd problems?
I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the
config file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that
the teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to
manage linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing
them to miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how
it was design to work. =(
And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE
students, who only "know Ubuntu" (assuming they used Ubuntu) and the
"Ubuntu way" and if tossed into a "non Ubuntu" system, become lost,
because they really did not learn how things worked behind the
"lipstick on a pig GUI".
Yep, this is the sad truth. I, together with 2 colleagues, give a
cloud course that's after the linux course, and we do hard core
terminal work in that course. We've discovered that since they have
a monkey as the linux teacher, we have to start from scratch in that
course, thus losing valuable time. =(
I will pray hard, that I manage to get back the linux course next
autumn. That way I can prepare them properly and teach them what the terminal, files, scripting, and text files is all about! =)
I saw a documentary where an abbott said that she uses (abbess?) the
students answer to the koan to gauge the students spiritual progress.
Somehow that feels so strange to me, since enlightenment is an
individual phenomenon, so how can you build a "scale" based on the
answer to nonsensical questions? On the other hand, I'm not a student of
zen.
...
I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to slckware to escape their systemd problems?
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I think things are a lot better nowadays. Our local hospital seems
to have it down to a science, and I've heard far more success stories
than failures.
As for me, I'm on my second day after the procedure. I'm kicking back
and relaxing, and doing those stretching exercises to get things back
to normal. It'll take a while. Painkillers help.
I hope you will have a speedy, good and pain free recovery! =)
On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.
And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary foundation of thinking.
All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or
not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the
way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand them.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him >>>>>>> so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give >>>>>>> an outlet for all that aggression.
Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
Science does not include them
The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
entirely our own inventions.
And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
More Kant-ian.
His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the
'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the
objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete
entities, they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to
others.
Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a
ship doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of
rotting bits of wood.
(The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox
and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same
object after having all of its original components replaced over
time, typically one after the other.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of
Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying
the Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year,
the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a
pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by
ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of
maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus were
replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship? )
Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this.
If you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a
problem because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus'
Ship' in reality.
I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem
with this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then
make up labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal
heavens, concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an
sich is an absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which
can never be known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as
god, or a postulated first mover etc.
Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that
it refers to. Meta data. A pointer.
Kant ?
Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.
OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......
BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
humming along with simple interaction rules -
cellular automata math.
Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.
But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...
If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in scientific circles?
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
This is not so good. I hope IBM won't kill redhat in the end.
Alas I think they will. As said, you are now IBMs
beta tester. This is valuable for working out a
number of kinks - but eventually the kinks will
be kinda dealt with. Then RH and its downstream
parasites will Go Away.
This is very sad. I know a guy who is an EMEA level manager at Redhat,
so he
benefited from the acquisition with a nice promotion. According to him,
what IBM
is currently doing to destroy it is to mess around with licensing, to
make it
more draconian and more expensive. Ceph has moved to IBM, so that will probably
go downhill, since IBM will always push GPFS over ceph.
At redhat, the only things that is focused on is Openshift, as the ultimate lock-in tool, so the OS just lives to the side in its own world.
What is sad is that SUSE is doing the excat same thing. Their strategy
seems to
be to copy everything Redhat does, and do it worse. They now only focus on rancher, and are leaving the OS to the side. They closed down their
openstack
and their ceph.
What they sadly don't realize is that the OS is their jewel. I would
focus on
that in the embedded space, they had a hueg lead in the SAP space, and
see if I
could grow up. But no... rancher and containers it is, and there redhat is blocking them well with openshift.
Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
a bunch of Canonical rejects .....
Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble
musl will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about
actually going back to some of my earliest experiments and try
FreeBSD for day to day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I
only need some basics, which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages,
so if they fixed their wifi problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to
run a small linux VM for a working wifi driver) it could definitely
be a serious option. Oh, and that would mean it doesn't drain the
battery as well. But let's see. I think I can stick with opensuse
15.6 for at least another 2-3 years, and then they might kill the
project in favuor of some container based crap.
Deb WAS the Solid Foundation ... until now. It became
just another 'Buntu IMHO. Tragic !
The BSDs are "usable" - really Not Bad. However remember
they are Unix, not Linux, so a lot of little stuff is
different. They also tend to be a few years behind when
it comes to drivers. The real target is SERVERS, not
desktops.
True. BSDs are a bit behind, but since my main use case is office + light scripting + some light servers stuff (backup, web server, etc.) BSDs
should be
fine I think. We will see in about 1-2 years when the time comes to leave opensuse 15.6 behind.
OpenSUSE/Tumbleweed ... DID get it to run on a Pi-4,
albeit a bit clunky sometimes because it isn't a
"light" distro. Pi-5s are WEIRD ... can't even get
a Fedora for those even a year on. Apparently the
boot-up chain of events is a huge kludge. HAVE
found instructions - pages and pages and pages
of them - WAY too old for that shit and half of
it would probably disappear on the next update.
I have a radxa zero for my kodi/tv use, and I tried to get opensuse to
run on it
and it was not possible. The radxa zero, being some kind of chinese
raspberry
copy had horrible documentation, so in the end, the only thing I managed
to get
working was some kind of dev snapshot of debian in their git repository.
I would loooose for raspberry to develop an updated version of the pi
zero. That
is what the radxa is. I have 4 GB ram and 16 GB built in flash storage
on the
tiniest board. It was wifi and bluetooth, and kodi and 1080p runs well
on it.
If raspberry updated their zero to those specs (or beyond) I would drop the radxa in a second since I expect that the git repository will become unmaintained in a year or two.
If you really want an alt, consider Arch and
derivs. Endeavour is nice. Manjaro works well
(but, like Tumbleweed, kinda updates the ENTIRE
system at the slightest change).
Thank you for the pointers. Have made a note of this.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 23:33:14 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I'm fine with Apache. You DO need to tweak more than one config file
these days alas - and HTTPS should be just a DEFAULT alongside HTTP.
Do it with macros. I have a setup for a client involving running about
half a dozen virtual hosts on a single machine. Each site definition is
only two lines in the Apache config: one for HTTP, the other for HTTPS.
The macro for HTTP adds an automatic redirect to HTTPS if enabled by a
single parameter setting.
Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
changes, and they are lost again.
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack, >>>>>> but,
who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
floppies.
When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
with Slackware 3.5. I continued with it for several years (and
upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
application builds from source, which grew tiresome.
Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot
of bad, in that. You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...
But I'm not 16 anymore.
Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind _some_ tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16 anymore and I have
a business to run, so this I will remove from the list of my opensuse replacements.
I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
to move on. I finally settled on Debian.
Well, you COULD get past Unity ...
My biggest objections were the 'services' they kept
pushing hard - indeed could barely install it anymore
without signing up (shades of M$ !). They also changed
and/or moved around a LOT of config stuff for NO real
gain IMHO.
Deb - WAS the Solid Foundation - but suddenly became
just another 'Buntu.
So now it's Fedora and Arch derivs.
I've heard GenToo is kinda interesting ... and
there are always the BSDs.
I was very impressed with FreeBSD when I tried it out 1 year ago. The
only thing missing for me was that in order to get anything faster that G-wifi, you had to run a small alpine VM with passthrough, since native drivers did not exist for FreeBSD.
I tried to run a snapshot version, and faster than G-wifi did work, but something else was unstable, so I had to leave it for the moment.
The laptop I tested it on was a (then) 1 year old Asus ExpertBook B5,
and everything except the wifi worked flawlessly.
The Freebsd handbook was absolutely amazing. The documentation is in my opinion, far, far ahead of linux. Suse does have some good guides
actually, but I feel BSD is better.
Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least with the
existing physics
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:27:09 +0100, D wrote:
Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatment/total-knee-replacement/
Pretty common. I know a couple of people who have had it.
On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms >>>> to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a bunch >>>> of nice stories.
Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position
here.
What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the
material world.
Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?
die prematurely.
True. But a model does not imply that there is no material world. In fact, >> the success of our models is a strong proof of a material world.
I never said there wasn't a material world, juts that is nothing like what you think of as 'the material world' which is a figment of the imagination
No. the need for security exists in almost everyone. People want simple truths. Certainties. The certainty of God, The certainty of a 'material world'. The certainty of 'social justice'That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying... quantum, arguments we've been through before...
externality
I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your thinking. >>
I think that is insulting. Stop ascribing motivations or putting words in
my mouth. If you do not, I will reverse the process, and we will end up
killfiling each other or angrily ignoring each other. I would not like for >> that to happen.
:-)
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:
Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human
species would just slowly fade away.
The dating of the Bhagavad Gita us controversial. One theory is it is not
as old as claimed and was written after Buddhism became established.
Gautama was a Kshatria, the warrior and administrator varna. As such, he attracted men from the same varna to lead lives as monks.
The Gita gets more philosophical but in the beginning Arjuna is on a battlefield and is getting cold feet. His mentor, Krishna, tells him he is
a warrior and that's what warriors do. Get with the program.
The thought is the Gita was addressed to young Kshatriya to remind them of their role in society and not to abandon it to follow some monk.
It will never happen but I'd really like to see Gabbard taking the Presidential oath of office with her hand on the Gita.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:23:24 +0100, D wrote:
How come? Is it like a thing you feel constantly? Doesn't that get
annoying or is it more that you feel it if you consciously look for it,
but you otherwise forget it?
https://www.stryker.com/us/en/trauma-and-extremities/products/gamma3.html
It's mostly at night if I lie on that side. The head of the lag screw
creates a pressure point. During the day it's rarely noticeable. For
example I put the studded winter tires on today and had no problems wuth
all the kneeling to position the jack, sitting to guide the tire on the studs, standing to torque the nuts, carrying the summer tires to in back
of the shed, etc. Over the summer I was putting on 25 to 30 miles a week, mostly on mountain trails with no problem.
The operation itself only requires two small incisions so it's minimally intrusive. I was up with a walker the next day. I took a Tylenol before
the excursion but didn't notice any effect so I didn't bother after that.
It took several months to get back to normal. I spent the time in rehab researching trike conversions or sidecars for the bikes j.i.c. I started
with a push bike to get the required range of motion. The first few
outings weren't very graceful on the dismount but I got the hang of it.
Both the V-Strom and DR650 are pretty tall but with the Sportster I can
step over the saddle.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:
I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering
your ego,
jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like
the gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug,
might shake it a bit so it becomes unstuck?
Back in the day I did acid of dubious quality twice. The first was a bad experience, the second was better. I was alone for the second attempt.
True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
life was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they
would go to heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the
church didn't forbid that way of "hacking the system"!
I don't think it was all that bad. People raised families and carried on obviously or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I'm reading a series by James L. Nelson set in 852 A.D. when Dubh Linn was
a Norse settlement. It follows a small band whose leader only wants to
grab some Irish loot, go home to Norway, and spend his golden years
farming. It doesn't work out that was of course.
One of the band is a berserker. He gets morose after battles when he
survives since he wants a heroic death in battle to attract the Valkyries
to take him to Valhalla.
The Christians had to make a few edits to sell their goods to a warrior culture. I think I've mentioned Russell's 'The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity' and the Heliand, a Saxon poem that had Jesus as the drighten of a war band heading to the hill fort of Jerusalem. The massacre
of the Saxons didn't get the job done so they had to come up with a better spin. We still honer Woden's Day and turning the other cheek never got
very popular.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:36:46 +0100, D wrote:
I saw a documentary where an abbott said that she uses (abbess?) the
students answer to the koan to gauge the students spiritual progress.
Somehow that feels so strange to me, since enlightenment is an
individual phenomenon, so how can you build a "scale" based on the
answer to nonsensical questions? On the other hand, I'm not a student of
zen.
Rinzai Zen is often criticized for the koan system. It might have worked
at one point before it became formalized.
https://www.amazon.com/Sound-One-Hand-Answers-Classics/dp/1681370220
For only $11.99 in the Kindle edition you can get the teacher's edition.
Soto Zen is more into just sitting (zazen).
And then there is the Western spin. It can be traced back to Alan Watts,
and alcoholic British expat, and through him to Christmas Humphreys, the founder of the London Buddhist Society. Then you get to Bennett, the Order
of the Golden Dawn, Crowley, Annie Besant of the Theosophical Society, and other assorted nutters. D.T. Suzuki was also from that group and threw in
his own spin.
Filter it through a generation or two and you have Tricycle. Personally I prefer Rahula's take although he is often criticized as being too Western.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Buddha_Taught
On 07/12/2024 22:20, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>
I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on >>>>>>>> seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst >>>>>>>> to
me Natures best laxative...
Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative, >>>>>>> at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no >>>>>> idea they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.
I went to her funeral.
Other people end up with amputations.
Hip replacements are very successful though.
Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver antibiotics >>>>> to the wound site
Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of
life, my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having
struggled with very painful cancer treatment for several years.
Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic
incurable conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and
keep going. Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.
I will pray for that they might chance from incurable to curable with some >> great scientific leaps in the future!
Well a major transplant of 3-4 organs and a massive break through in cancer might fixe them all.
But I am not holding my breath,.
My body is simply worn out.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)
Yes. Slackware is the nearest to just being Linux of all the
distros (that install Linux, some of the FreeBSD's may be similar).
If your preference is to edit /etc/resolv.conf to adjust your
default name server, and edit /etc/init.d to change the default
bootup, and so forth, it is more what you may be looking for than
the others (all of which add varing levels a "you are an idiot, here
let me hold your hand via this custom GUI" system on top).
Sounds great! =)
Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my
machines! =D
Tis free to download, and you can install it into a VM if you wish
to 'test out' at first (and don't have a spare machine to devote to
'testout').
It also is one of the few left that is systemd free. And instead of
the SYSV infinite field of symlinks for init, Slackware uses BSD
style rc.d scripts (actual scripts you can edit). The provenance of
SYSV sysmlink fields means it also will support those if you want,
but the default is actual scripts that execute other scripts.
Oh my... it just keeps getting better and better!! How come it
hasn't gotten any attention at all??
Likely because 99% of the "computer using public" is *lost* without the "handholding GUI".
I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to >> slckware to escape their systemd problems?
I can't answer that one. You'd have to ask them. I don't dabble in
either. First installed Slackware back when it was the "new and
improved SLS" (Soft Landing Systems). Have stuck with it since.
I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the
config file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that
the teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to
manage linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing
them to miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how
it was design to work. =(
And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE
students, who only "know Ubuntu" (assuming they used Ubuntu) and the
"Ubuntu way" and if tossed into a "non Ubuntu" system, become lost,
because they really did not learn how things worked behind the
"lipstick on a pig GUI".
Yep, this is the sad truth. I, together with 2 colleagues, give a
cloud course that's after the linux course, and we do hard core
terminal work in that course. We've discovered that since they have
a monkey as the linux teacher, we have to start from scratch in that
course, thus losing valuable time. =(
Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
changes, and they are lost again.
I will pray hard, that I manage to get back the linux course next
autumn. That way I can prepare them properly and teach them what the
terminal, files, scripting, and text files is all about! =)
That will reduce the lost time in the 'cloud' course just to bring them
up to speed to begin to operate.
On 07/12/2024 22:07, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near deathThe ultimate trauma...
experiences as well.
Yes, and boy is it fascinating!
True. I would very much like to try, but I have madness in the distantThat brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms are >>>> now starting to become so common, if there's something to be gained by >>>> doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind with externalDepends on the person. Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or
drugs?
revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact... >>
family
and I do not want to take any risk of jarring the good, old brain since it >> might
be latent in me.
There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then unable >>> to cope with daily life.
This is another interesting thought experiment. We tend to sanctify saints, >> saying they are the paragon of humanity. But would all of us becoing saints >> really be a good end station for humanity?
If I look at monks and monasteries, they decide (for the love of humanity) >> to
move away and pray. If you look at saintly figures among the monks (the
"rock
stars" of spirituality) they tend to withdraw even more, and the brothers
take
care of them.
Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human species >> would
just slowly fade away.
"Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After enlightenment >>> chopping wood, fetching water"
:-)
True. From where is that quote?
Standard Zen shit I think
Yes. Very much so.
The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about undergroundBliss junkies.
trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again. >>>>
It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out
with that for my last operation. Wow!
Yes, it does sound like junkies. They are only there for the instant
effects,
and not for the goal (to find god). I think, but am not sure, that buddha
strongly warned against blissful states, spiritual experiences, esp and so >> on,
and said "just keep on meditating and do not let yourself be distracted by >> that".
It would make a lot of sense if that is what he said, and it would also
make me
think that in fact, bliss junkies is exactly what they are, and that it
might
actually be harmful for them in the long run, even though they run around
feeling bliss all day.
Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for decades, >>>> and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving man, withIndeed.
enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and helping people. >>>>
The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his dose >>>> of spirituality.Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.
There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't
guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad
one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.
I think transpersonal psychology and psychedelic therapy are trying to
mitigate
that, and make it for "everyone" by carefully monitoring the process and
the
doseages.
Well good luck with that. I come from a rougher and less sympathetic age. If you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen.
Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the other >>>> method?Depends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive any >>> drug. But weak people are attracted.
Only one way to find out! ;)
I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to anPsychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find
underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards he >>>> felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even hesitated to >>>> kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect started to wear >>>> off as life came back.
alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution, but >>> your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they are a tool >>> to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the modification will >>> hold.
I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering your >> ego,
jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like the >> gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug, might
shake it
a bit so it becomes unstuck?
Mental illness from the psychedelic perspective is simply a bad metaphysical choice.
People choose to believe something, perhaps not even consciously, that makes them dysfunctional and unhappy. But in some sense secure in their belief.
"everyone is out to get me because i am in fact superior in every way, so I don't need to change my views at all, I am right, and they are simply wrong"
Lol. Hacking the christian system
This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely permanently >>> 'enlightened'
True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
life
was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they would go >> to
heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the church didn't
forbid
that way of "hacking the system"! ;)
I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.
For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)
"In my life, I have travelled many paths,
into the bush and out of it
But I am not anywhere.
For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart
On any path with heart
And their I travel looking breathlessly"
"But how can one know a path with heart?"
"Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question"
From where is this quote?
The teachings of Don Juan - Carlos Castenada. A mixture of truth and fiction IMHO.
On 2024-12-07, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
...
I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to >> slckware to escape their systemd problems?
I might not be one of "those guys", but this is my journey as a
refugee from systemd:
- Based on notes and potentially fallible memory from 2013, I had
been on Mageia 2. IIRC, it was the next version of Mageia that
switched to systemd. I use RAIDs for main storage. My test VM
installed fine, but when I tried to boot the test VM via
systemd, it hung for several minutes and then booted into a
very broken state. Some stuff (including filesystems) had
timed out and not booted, while other stuff (including
filesystems) had not. The tools to decipher systemd's binary
journal (rather than plain-text logs) were not installed by
default. The system was in "I've fallen and can't get up"
condition. At that point, I decided I would be one of the last
people on the planet to be using something other than systemd
on my main machine(s).
- I ran Debian 7 from late 2013 to mid-2018. It was great, but
then Debian was overcome by the systemd virus, so my journey
continued.
- I ran Slackware 14.2 from mid-2018 to late 2018. Updates to
the kernel were a royal pain, because the tools to generate an
initrd with drivers for RAID are not even in IKEA-like state.
I got tired of having to troubleshoot the manual initrd
generation process on every kernel update. Every time,
something else had gone wrong and needed to be figured out and
solved. Fatigue set in.
- In late 2018, I switched to Devuan ascii, then went to beowulf,
then chimaera, and now daedalus.
Along the way, I think I tried a couple of other non-systemd
distributions. IIRC, one of them was too much like a toy, and
another set up hardware in such a way that disks kept detaching
and spamming system logs with messages about a disk going offline
and being recovered, rinsing, and repeating endlessly.
If Devuan continues to be viable, I'll probably stay here for as
long as possible. If/when Devuan becomes non-viable, I'll try to
find a viable Linux distribution with a variant of BSD as
fallback.
How's that for a long answer to a short question? :-)
On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.
And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the
necessary foundation of thinking.
All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do
or not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it
not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the
way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we
understand them.
Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
with the existing physics :-)
I suspect 'dark matter' will occupy a similar position.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 00:31:44 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least with the
existing physics
When Galileo was doing his best to piss off the pope Ptolemy's geocentric model gave more accurate predictions than the Copernican heliocentric
model. Yes, it was complcated but it WORKED.
At redhat, the only things that is focused on is Openshift, as the ultimate >> lock-in tool, so the OS just lives to the side in its own world.
IBM has "different motives" when it comes to Linux.
They will use what they want to use and then trash
the rest.
We're in the middle of that.
What is sad is that SUSE is doing the excat same thing. Their strategy
seems to
be to copy everything Redhat does, and do it worse. They now only focus on >> rancher, and are leaving the OS to the side. They closed down their
openstack
and their ceph.
Yea, (real)SUSE isn't worth it anymore.
Ever tried OpenIndiana - formerly Solaris ? It's
not really Linux or Unix but "familiar". Really
not so bad.
And there's always Plan-9 :-)
What they sadly don't realize is that the OS is their jewel. I would focus >> on
that in the embedded space, they had a hueg lead in the SAP space, and see >> if I
could grow up. But no... rancher and containers it is, and there redhat is >> blocking them well with openshift.
The pointy-haired bosses are only interested
in quick PROFITS and CONTROL. No sense of 'mission'
beyond that.
I greatly fear when Linus drops out of the picture.
Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
a bunch of Canonical rejects .....
Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble musl >>>> will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about actually >>>> going back to some of my earliest experiments and try FreeBSD for day to >>>> day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I only need some basics, >>>> which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages, so if they fixed their
wifi problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to run a small linux VM for a >>>> working wifi driver) it could definitely be a serious option. Oh, and
that would mean it doesn't drain the battery as well. But let's see. I >>>> think I can stick with opensuse 15.6 for at least another 2-3 years, and >>>> then they might kill the project in favuor of some container based crap. >>>
Deb WAS the Solid Foundation ... until now. It became
just another 'Buntu IMHO. Tragic !
The BSDs are "usable" - really Not Bad. However remember
they are Unix, not Linux, so a lot of little stuff is
different. They also tend to be a few years behind when
it comes to drivers. The real target is SERVERS, not
desktops.
True. BSDs are a bit behind, but since my main use case is office + light
scripting + some light servers stuff (backup, web server, etc.) BSDs should >> be
fine I think. We will see in about 1-2 years when the time comes to leave
opensuse 15.6 behind.
The BSDs might be just perfect for your needs. They
are NOT so perfect for other people's needs - esp
the gigantic 'desktop' users segment who expect tons
of eye candy, GUI everything and anything plugged-in
to Just Work.
I've got FreeBSD in a VM right now - to refine the
'how to do it' trivia. DID get X and XCFE installed.
Next step is to install on an N95 BMax mini-box and
attach an external HD box. I'd like to use SAMBA but
something weird CHANGED with that in the last year
or two and I can't seem to bring up the shares -
always permissions errors regardless. NFS works,
but it's got less security and far fewer options.
Hmmm ... is it possible to 'dd' a VM into a usable
bootable image on a real machine ? I've seen various
'answers'. MX has a utility for cloning the running
install, it works well, but haven't seen that elsewhere.
OpenSUSE/Tumbleweed ... DID get it to run on a Pi-4,
albeit a bit clunky sometimes because it isn't a
"light" distro. Pi-5s are WEIRD ... can't even get
a Fedora for those even a year on. Apparently the
boot-up chain of events is a huge kludge. HAVE
found instructions - pages and pages and pages
of them - WAY too old for that shit and half of
it would probably disappear on the next update.
I have a radxa zero for my kodi/tv use, and I tried to get opensuse to run >> on it
and it was not possible. The radxa zero, being some kind of chinese
raspberry
copy had horrible documentation, so in the end, the only thing I managed to >> get
working was some kind of dev snapshot of debian in their git repository.
Well, not all PI clones are equal. DID try an Orange PI
and Banana PI. Close ... but not QUITE the same. It'd
depend on your exact purpose. If you NEED all the I/O
pins then stick to PIs, esp genuine PIs. If not then
shop BMax/BeeLink mini-boxes. Did buy another Pi just
a few weeks ago - but it's a Pi4, not Pi5. The pre-
BookWORM distros will run on it.
I would loooose for raspberry to develop an updated version of the pi zero. >> That
is what the radxa is. I have 4 GB ram and 16 GB built in flash storage on
the
tiniest board. It was wifi and bluetooth, and kodi and 1080p runs well on
it.
The P0 is an interesting variant. You could do a lot of
useful stuff with the old Pi-1/2 boards and P0 seems to
encapsulate that capability without much more BS.
WiFi/BT/etc ... MIGHT take a bigger board - but the
parts ARE getting smaller and better all the time.
Expect a Pi0.1 eventually.
When I retired I still had an original Pi - the one
with fewer I/O pins - doing a simple job in the
server room (inside an old drill-bit box). It'd been
working since forever. DID finally update the system
near the end, new SD card - and it still worked great.
The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.
If raspberry updated their zero to those specs (or beyond) I would drop the >> radxa in a second since I expect that the git repository will become
unmaintained in a year or two.
If you really want an alt, consider Arch and
derivs. Endeavour is nice. Manjaro works well
(but, like Tumbleweed, kinda updates the ENTIRE
system at the slightest change).
Thank you for the pointers. Have made a note of this.
Just trying to predict the near future ... it's
not ALL so rosy.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought
forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's
just a bunch of nice stories.
Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical
position here.
What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from
the material world.
Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?
There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know is
just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. They
don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 03:02:20 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact
handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
changes, and they are lost again.
Then they are very poor at generalization. My various machines have
Ubuntu, Fedora KDE spin, Lubuntu, Debian with Xfce, the Raspberry Pi OS derivative of Debian, and Windows 11. They're all different and they are
all the same.
A huge number of folks get by via little more than rote memorization
for computer usage, and seemingly have zero ability to generalize.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 00:31:44 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least with the
existing physics
When Galileo was doing his best to piss off the pope Ptolemy's geocentric model gave more accurate predictions than the Copernican heliocentric
model. Yes, it was complcated but it WORKED.
On 08/12/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
A huge number of folks get by via little more than rote memorization
for computer usage, and seemingly have zero ability to generalize.
I was always amazed at the database entry and access staff who could
touch type and absolutely had only one set of menus and no GUI on an
80x25 screen.
The speed they achieved because everything was the same every day was amazing.
I wouldn't want someone moving the brake pedal on my car, either.
Gui crap is built by coders for coders.
Most people just want to click on Button A and get to their bank, key in
the security shit and pay their bills etc.
The GUI is actually a distraction
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.
This is indeed tragic! It will be fun to see the IT budget explode.
It will also be fun to watch them when Microsoft cloud services go
down from time to time, and all they can do is to have a coffee and wait.
You must not have had much experience with helping out 'typical users'
(i.e., often those who "just want to get their job X done on this dang computer").
Move a button 40 pixels in any cardinal direction on their GUI, but
otherwise leave the label unchanged, and 40% of those users will be
unable to function until someone else shows them the new location of
the button.
A huge number of folks get by via little more than rote memorization
for computer usage, and seemingly have zero ability to generalize.
On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms >>>>>> to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a >>>>>> bunch of nice stories.
Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position >>>>> here.
What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the >>>> material world.
Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?
There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know is
just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. They
don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.
Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the laws, we actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.
On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.
And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary >>> foundation of thinking.
All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or >>> not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not >>> because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the way >>> we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand them. >>
with the existing physics :-)
Mickelson-Morley rather gave the lie to a physically meaningful aether, so it was dropped.
#
I suspect 'dark matter' will occupy a similar position.:-) Probably
Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol, but
I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15. I've had
a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything close to the strength of it since.
Got it! Glad to hear it worked and isn't causing you any serious
trouble! =) I am starting to get a bit worried about my old father when there's too much ice on the pavement. He did slip last winter on his way
home from the grocery store, but nothing serious. He's only a child
though (73) so plenty of more year to go!
But there is this wonderful inflection point, where christianity went
from a personal mystic method to find enlightenment, to become a tool to control and build society.
I wonder if the mystics lost because of 1. being more interested in the "within" and personal experience than power and 2. the other guys being
more interested in power and cared nothing for god, but saw the
opportunity. I guess the 3. is St Paul fearing that christianity would
split into a 1000 pieces if the mystics with their own individual
experiences were allowed to continue.
You must not have had much experience with helping out 'typical users'
(i.e., often those who "just want to get their job X done on this dang computer").
Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
I'm no expert, but I'd say the sitting version sounds more "original".
As for Watts, I'm always skeptical of those kind of new ages guys, but
very often people seem to be huge fans.
On 2024-12-08, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.
s/blame/shovel more money at/
Your typical luser now just shrugs his shoulders and re-boots,
re-formats, and re-installs, while meekly accepting that this is
The Way Things Are.
This is indeed tragic! It will be fun to see the IT budget explode.
It will also be fun to watch them when Microsoft cloud services go
down from time to time, and all they can do is to have a coffee and wait.
Given that M$'s quality critera can be summed up as
"sort of works, most of the time
plenty of this - although there will probably be a
higher-priced option that goes down slightly less often.
On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the laws, we actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.
On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.
And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the
necessary foundation of thinking.
All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do
or not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use
it not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in
the way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we
understand them.
Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
with the existing physics :-)
Mickelson-Morley rather gave the lie to a physically meaningful aether,
so it was dropped.
#
I suspect 'dark matter' will occupy a similar position.:-) Probably
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:
Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol, but
I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15. I've had
a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything close to the
strength of it since.
No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
paranoid experience like the first one.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:06:38 +0100, D wrote:
Got it! Glad to hear it worked and isn't causing you any serious
trouble! =) I am starting to get a bit worried about my old father when
there's too much ice on the pavement. He did slip last winter on his way
home from the grocery store, but nothing serious. He's only a child
though (73) so plenty of more year to go!
Child? That makes me feel better since I have a few years on him.
The irony is I have a collection of YakTraks and micro-spikes that I use
when hiking. I was walking two blocks to the grocery store on mostly dry pavement. There was a frozen puddle at the end of the company driveway
that I navigated around but missed an icy patch on the other side. I went down fast and hard. Another pedestrian had seen me fall and asked if I was okay. I said yes as I scrambled back up. Then I realized that wasn't going
to work. They called 911 since my phone was safely on my desk.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:10:55 +0100, D wrote:
I'm no expert, but I'd say the sitting version sounds more "original".
As for Watts, I'm always skeptical of those kind of new ages guys, but
very often people seem to be huge fans.
The story has several variations but the general theme is Gautama spent 6 years trying the various New Age techniques with no success until he
decided to plant himself under the Bodhi tree until he figured it out.
Then came the systemizers and the immense body of Abhidharma literature, followed by the different schools arguing over interpretation.
I always had problems with some of those texts. Those people would have
loved LibreOffice since everything is enumerated lists. I can't reliably remember the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Twelve Links of Dependent Origination let alone the subgroupings like the Five Skahndas.
That's probably why I like Nietzsche; sprawling, self-contradictory, spur
of the moment aphorisms with no attempt to build a system. That's better
than Schopenhauer's 'On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason' which he claims is the key to understanding The World as Will.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 11:59:17 +0100, D wrote:
But there is this wonderful inflection point, where christianity went
from a personal mystic method to find enlightenment, to become a tool to
control and build society.
I wonder if the mystics lost because of 1. being more interested in the
"within" and personal experience than power and 2. the other guys being
more interested in power and cared nothing for god, but saw the
opportunity. I guess the 3. is St Paul fearing that christianity would
split into a 1000 pieces if the mystics with their own individual
experiences were allowed to continue.
Other than the Gnostics I don't see much mysticism in early Christianity rather than sort of a consoling belief for the lumpen proletariat. Constantine was the start of the control.
Mystics like Ecckhart, John of the Cross, Tauler, Teresa of Avila, and so forth were a problem for the hierarchy and treated with suspicion if not outright condemned as heretics.
Even in recent times Teilhard de Chardin was ordered not to publish or
teach his ideas. That's no different than Eckhart who would have been
ignored if he hadn't tried to teach.
t drive me nuts when I watch J. Random Luser pointing and clicking and pointing and clicking and dragging and dropping and... oops, where did I
drop that icon? Hold on a minute... And all the time they're proudly proclaiming how_easy_ the system is to use, when I could get the job
done in a dozen keystrokes on a properly-designed system.
--
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the laws, we
On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind ofAnd yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the
useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc. >>>>
necessary foundation of thinking.
All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we
do or not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and
use it not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works*
for us.
We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in
the way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we
understand them.
Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
with the existing physics :-)
actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.
If you are interested, Bas van Fraassen probably has some interesting
things to add as well. There was also a german guy who wrote something interesting in the 1920s I think on that theme, but for the moment the
name does not come back to me.
Ahh, here we go!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_%27As_if%27 .
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:
Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol, but
I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15. I've had
a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything close to the
strength of it since.
No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
paranoid experience like the first one.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought >>>>>>> forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case
it's just a bunch of nice stories.
Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical
position here.
What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from
the material world.
Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?
There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know
is just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events.
They don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.
Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
Nope. It resides safely and securely in the real world and does not have
its own dimension where ideal and laws live.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 11:59:17 +0100, D wrote:
But there is this wonderful inflection point, where christianity went
from a personal mystic method to find enlightenment, to become a tool to
control and build society.
I wonder if the mystics lost because of 1. being more interested in the
"within" and personal experience than power and 2. the other guys being
more interested in power and cared nothing for god, but saw the
opportunity. I guess the 3. is St Paul fearing that christianity would
split into a 1000 pieces if the mystics with their own individual
experiences were allowed to continue.
Other than the Gnostics I don't see much mysticism in early Christianity rather than sort of a consoling belief for the lumpen proletariat. Constantine was the start of the control.
Mystics like Ecckhart, John of the Cross, Tauler, Teresa of Avila, and so forth were a problem for the hierarchy and treated with suspicion if not outright condemned as heretics.
Even in recent times Teilhard de Chardin was ordered not to publish or
teach his ideas. That's no different than Eckhart who would have been
ignored if he hadn't tried to teach.
I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core", and
that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to using his teachings as a way to power starts.
Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified, formalized remains
left.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension.
There ain't no there there.
Seems like every time the instruments have a 10x improvement
we have to create a whole new physics/cosmology.
Are these 'ancient
galaxies' real, or just the ass-end view of nearer
galaxies ? 🙂
I can't reliably
remember the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Twelve Links of Dependent Origination let alone the subgroupings like the Five Skahndas.
That's probably why I like Nietzsche; sprawling, self-contradictory, spur
of the moment aphorisms with no attempt to build a system. That's better
than Schopenhauer's 'On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason' which he claims is the key to understanding The World as Will.
On 12/8/24 2:50 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-08, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.
s/blame/shovel more money at/
Your typical luser now just shrugs his shoulders and re-boots,
re-formats, and re-installs, while meekly accepting that this is
The Way Things Are.
It's not just "users" anymore ... they aren't expected
to know much. It's also a very large segment of IT. The
goal is to Blame Someone Else - not deal, not fix, not
defend, not innovate.
ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
shit hits the fan".
On 08/12/2024 20:49, D wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the laws, we
On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of >>>>>> useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc. >>>>>And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary >>>>> foundation of thinking.
All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or >>>>> not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not >>>>> because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the >>>>> way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand >>>>> them.
Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
with the existing physics :-)
actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.
If you are interested, Bas van Fraassen probably has some interesting
things to add as well. There was also a german guy who wrote something
interesting in the 1920s I think on that theme, but for the moment the name >> does not come back to me.
Ahh, here we go!Yes. That is exactly what I meant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_%27As_if%27 .
Except more so, He argues that if it works, even if its wrong, its OK.
My point goes further. We can never know for sure if its *right* so the *only* criteria we can have is that it works.
Which was where Karl Popper came in. He arrived at that point and wanted to clarify what separated good science from bullshit.
And pseudo scientists have been trying to shout him down ever since
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 13:39:51 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I've heard about it, but I do not think they supported a laptop last
time I checked it out, and was VM-only, but perhaps things have moved
in the right direction!
This is the truth! As long as I can have some basic tools, vim, xfce,
wifi and decent battery life (oh, and suspend), I'm a happy camper!
It remains mind-boggling to me how poor power-management/laptop support
is in the FOSS world, outside of Linux (which gets it mostly by virtue
of being the proverbial 800-lb. gorilla, relative to the other players.) OpenBSD I can understand, those people *exclusively* care about server environments, but it's surprising how spotty NetBSD is with it, and
even moreso something like Haiku which is intended specifically for use
in a desktop personal-computer context...
On 08/12/2024 20:50, D wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought >>>>>>>> forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's >>>>>>>> just a bunch of nice stories.
Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position >>>>>>> here.
What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the >>>>>> material world.
Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?
There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know is >>>> just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. They >>>> don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.
Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
Nope. It resides safely and securely in the real world and does not have
its own dimension where ideal and laws live.
So where does a computer program reside?
On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core", and
that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to using his
teachings as a way to power starts.
Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and personal
experiences get lost and you just get the ossified, formalized remains
left.
Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes 'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed laws to be divine rather than man made?
My knowledge of friends of the Hebrew persuasion suggest to me the latter. :-)
On 08/12/2024 22:38, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Well there you are starting with that assumption, so its circular reasoning.
Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension.
There ain't no there there.
'There ain't no there, there', is pure metaphysical faith.
I am simply not so sure...
On 09/12/2024 08:02, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Seems like every time the instruments have a 10x improvement
we have to create a whole new physics/cosmology.
You should see what all these latest telescopes in space are revealing!.
I think you have never been exposed to the Indian art of story telling.
Read Salman Rushdies 'Haroun and the Sea of Stories'...
He arrived at an Eastern view of the world from first principles Quite a feat.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 20:50, D wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:Nope. It resides safely and securely in the real world and does not
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as
thought forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which >>>>>>>>> case it's just a bunch of nice stories.
Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical
position here.
What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate
from the material world.
Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?
There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know >>>>> is just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. >>>>> They don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.
Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
have its own dimension where ideal and laws live.
So where does a computer program reside?
In a simple case, it resides in a computer.
On 09/12/2024 08:02, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Are these 'ancient
galaxies' real, or just the ass-end view of nearer galaxies ? 🙂
They are just pixels on a CCD.🙂
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 22:38, rbowman wrote:Well, note the unless. So my interpretation is that the answer is "no"
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Well there you are starting with that assumption, so its circular
Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension.
There ain't no there there.
reasoning.
'There ain't no there, there', is pure metaphysical faith.
I am simply not so sure...
on rbowmans behalf. But I'll let the expert talk, and we'll see. ;)
On 08/12/2024 21:13, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:
Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol,
but I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15.
I've had a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything
close to the strength of it since.
No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
paranoid experience like the first one.
Many people 'don't remember' . Its cognitive dissonance. The ones that
do, tell an interestng story.
On 09/12/2024 15:28, Rich wrote:
ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
shit hits the fan".
LOL.
Most support contracts are not worth wiping your bottom on.
They are just designed to make money out of.
The sub prime mortgage crisis was typical of such.
"We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
"Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1 guaranteed debt then"
"But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
"Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"
http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/story.jpg
On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core",
and that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to
using his teachings as a way to power starts.
Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and
personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified,
formalized remains left.
Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and
wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes
'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed
laws to be divine rather than man made?
In autumn, the leaves on the ground are out to get you, and in winter,
the ice, in spring, it's the stubborn treacherous remains. In summer at least,
we are safe!
I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.
Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
shit hits the fan".
"We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
"Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1 guaranteed debt then"
"But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
"Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"
Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very knowledgeable!
I agree completely! I do like Schopenhauers short philosophical texts
about everyday life (Parerga und paralipomena). Some of them make
perfect sense and are quite approachable.
But his magnum opus I don't agree with at all.
Nietzsche on the other hand, is much better at writing, and although I
do not think that it is just a bunch of random aphorisms, I do believe
there is a theme, they are quite a puzzle to fit together.
Add to that, that his views changed. My favourite is the middle period Nietzsche who does see the promise in science and rationality.
But another thing I like about Nietzsche, at least for me, is that his
short aphorisms serve as a spring board for me for my own reflections
and philosophy. I find it very inspirational. The anti-christ I also
like with its critique of institutionalized christianity and how
damaging it has been to society.
On 08/12/2024 20:49, D wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the laws, we
On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of >>>>>> useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc. >>>>>And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary >>>>> foundation of thinking.
All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or >>>>> not - is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not >>>>> because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
We don't and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the >>>>> way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand >>>>> them.
Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
with the existing physics :-)
actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.
If you are interested, Bas van Fraassen probably has some interesting
things to add as well. There was also a german guy who wrote something
interesting in the 1920s I think on that theme, but for the moment the name >> does not come back to me.
Ahh, here we go!Yes. That is exactly what I meant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_%27As_if%27 .
Except more so, He argues that if it works, even if its wrong, its OK.
My point goes further. We can never know for sure if its *right* so the *only* criteria we can have is that it works.
Which was where Karl Popper came in. He arrived at that point and wanted to clarify what separated good science from bullshit.
And pseudo scientists have been trying to shout him down ever since
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
shit hits the fan".
An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 13:39:51 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I've heard about it, but I do not think they supported a laptop last
time I checked it out, and was VM-only, but perhaps things have moved
in the right direction!
This is the truth! As long as I can have some basic tools, vim, xfce,
wifi and decent battery life (oh, and suspend), I'm a happy camper!
It remains mind-boggling to me how poor power-management/laptop support
is in the FOSS world, outside of Linux (which gets it mostly by virtue
of being the proverbial 800-lb. gorilla, relative to the other players.) OpenBSD I can understand, those people *exclusively* care about server environments, but it's surprising how spotty NetBSD is with it, and
even moreso something like Haiku which is intended specifically for use
in a desktop personal-computer context...
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 21:44:32 +0100, D wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 22:38, rbowman wrote:Well, note the unless. So my interpretation is that the answer is "no"
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Well there you are starting with that assumption, so its circular
Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension. >>>> There ain't no there there.
reasoning.
'There ain't no there, there', is pure metaphysical faith.
I am simply not so sure...
on rbowmans behalf. But I'll let the expert talk, and we'll see. ;)
Not going down the rabbit, or maybe turtle, hole. Poking around in brains hasn't found anything but basic neurophysiology, electrochemical
interaction between the dendrites and axons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ A_logical_calculus_of_the_ideas_immanent_in_nervous_activity
We've come a long way from that model.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:56:56 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 21:13, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:
Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol,
but I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15.
I've had a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything
close to the strength of it since.
No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
paranoid experience like the first one.
Many people 'don't remember' . Its cognitive dissonance. The ones that
do, tell an interestng story.
Some are better story tellers. Those who use psychedelics in search of a transformative may be predisposed to finding it.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core",
and that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to
using his teachings as a way to power starts.
Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and
personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified,
formalized remains left.
Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and
wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes
'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed
laws to be divine rather than man made?
What better way is there to get the "tribe" to not question the "moral
laws" than to convince them that their God explicitly deemed these so.
Who are you, lowly tribe member, to question the "word of God".....
One just have to be successful in the process of selling of the 'laws'
as "divine from God" to the tribe members.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:29:58 +0100, D wrote:
In autumn, the leaves on the ground are out to get you, and in winter,
the ice, in spring, it's the stubborn treacherous remains. In summer at
least,
we are safe!
I'm not a very good passenger. One fall a friend was driving and I didn't feel comfortable. Rather than yelling 'Slow down!' I mentioned that wet leaves on the road were as treacherous as ice. The hint didn't work and we were soon going down the road backwards at about 70 mph before becoming airborne. Alfa Romeos don't do well upside down. I still have scars from
that one.
It hasn't snowed yet but we're in a fairly typical winter pattern, high
30s or low 40s in the day and 20s at night. Perfect conditions to reflow
the ice every day. The trails get icy and stay that way and the less
traveled roads can have all sorts of surprises.
There aren't many hardwood species but Ponderosa pines loose a percentage
of their needles in the fall. The long shed needles form a thatch that's
good for skiing if you're not careful. Larch loose their needles
completely but they're short enough to not be hazardous.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0100, D wrote:
I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you
mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.
Prophet in his own land... iirc Thomas Merton, who was well versed in
Zen, pointed out the similarities to Christian mysticism and suggested you didn't really need to make the 'journey to the east'.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
shit hits the fan".
An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:58:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
"We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
"Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1
guaranteed debt then"
"But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
"Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"
I remember an article in the WSJ about the great new idea of creating a tranche of mortgages likely to fail, peddle the derivatives, and wait for
the failure and subsequent insurance payout.
I'm not interested in the stock market or economics in general but I
thought 'this isn't going to end well.' I thought the same about the 1999 'Financial Services Modernization Act' that removed the Glass-Steagal controls with the financiers promising they weren't going to do anything stupid this time.
I'm not prescient nor do I claim any expertise in economics, foreign
policy, and so forth but it's depressing how often my personal analysis proves to be correct versus the 'experts'.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:
Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
knowledgeable!
I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though parallels my understanding of the world.
However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
contra Nietzsche.
I agree completely! I do like Schopenhauers short philosophical texts
about everyday life (Parerga und paralipomena). Some of them make
perfect sense and are quite approachable.
I've got Hollingdale's 'Essays and Aphorisms' that is a selection. I don't know how complete it is. I have read that during his service in WWI Hitler carried a copy of Schopenhauer's writings in his knapsack. I assume it was Parerga and not the two volumes of The World.
But his magnum opus I don't agree with at all.
For me that's back to his pessimism. I think the real person of the 'obit anus, abit onus' quote would have been more interesting than the intellectual. He probably had a few good rants on Hegel too.
Nietzsche on the other hand, is much better at writing, and although I
do not think that it is just a bunch of random aphorisms, I do believe
there is a theme, they are quite a puzzle to fit together.
Add to that, that his views changed. My favourite is the middle period
Nietzsche who does see the promise in science and rationality.
That is more interesting than Schopenhauer. He may have done a little polishing but he was a one trick pony, unlike Nietzsche. I'm currently re- reading the unfinished 'Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks' that's quite linear. Prior to that I'd reread the late works, Twilight,
Antichrist, and Ecce Homo. Next I'll redo the middle. It's been some time since I've read 'Untimely Meditations', the others I've hit more recently. TBH Zarathustra is my least favorite of the while corpus.
But another thing I like about Nietzsche, at least for me, is that his
short aphorisms serve as a spring board for me for my own reflections
and philosophy. I find it very inspirational. The anti-christ I also
like with its critique of institutionalized christianity and how
damaging it has been to society.
'The Will to Power' is one my bathroom book pile. I read random selections like some people do with the bible. I don't trust the llama as an editor
but I'm glad she undertook the project.
Antichrist reminds me of the Jefferson Bible and some of the newer
projects. Pauline Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus. I think by
then Nietzsche felt bad about sniping at poor old Strauss.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 12:37:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think you have never been exposed to the Indian art of story telling.
Read Salman Rushdies 'Haroun and the Sea of Stories'...
iirc I took a run at 'The Satanic Verses' but couldn't get any traction. while I can understand the endless repetitions as an aid to verbal transmission it does get old in the sutras.
He arrived at an Eastern view of the world from first principles Quite a
feat.
I think he remarked that when he finally encountered Buddhism it looked a
lot like home.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:56:56 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/12/2024 21:13, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:
Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol,
but I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15.
I've had a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything
close to the strength of it since.
No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
paranoid experience like the first one.
Many people 'don't remember' . Its cognitive dissonance. The ones that
do, tell an interestng story.
Some are better story tellers. Those who use psychedelics in search of a transformative may be predisposed to finding it.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0100, D wrote:
I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you
mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.
Prophet in his own land... iirc Thomas Merton, who was well versed in
Zen, pointed out the similarities to Christian mysticism and suggested you didn't really need to make the 'journey to the east'.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core",
and that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to
using his teachings as a way to power starts.
Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and
personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified,
formalized remains left.
Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and
wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes
'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed
laws to be divine rather than man made?
What better way is there to get the "tribe" to not question the "moral
laws" than to convince them that their God explicitly deemed these so.
Who are you, lowly tribe member, to question the "word of God".....
One just have to be successful in the process of selling of the 'laws'
as "divine from God" to the tribe members.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/12/2024 15:28, Rich wrote:
ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
shit hits the fan".
LOL.
Most support contracts are not worth wiping your bottom on.
They are just designed to make money out of.
The sub prime mortgage crisis was typical of such.
"We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
"Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1
guaranteed debt then"
"But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
"Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"
http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/story.jpg
Nice...
Although I doubt that anyone actually asked the "what if" question
about the insurance companies in the run-up to the explosion.
'm not interested in the stock market or economics in general but I
thought 'this isn't going to end well.' I thought the same about the 1999 'Financial Services Modernization Act' that removed the Glass-Steagal controls with the financiers promising they weren't going to do anything stupid this time.
I'm not prescient nor do I claim any expertise in economics, foreign
policy, and so forth but it's depressing how often my personal analysis proves to be correct versus the 'experts'.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:
Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
knowledgeable!
I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though parallels my understanding of the world.
However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
contra Nietzsche.
On 2024-12-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
shit hits the fan".
An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if
they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.
Several years ago Microsoft's buzzphrase against Linux was "total cost
of ownership" (TCO). In other words, M$ products cost money, but the
support more than makes up for it. It was amazing how fast evidence
to the contrary piled up. "TCO" disappeared from the M$ marketing
lexicon pretty fast.
I would _love_ to do that kind of experiment, tring out some psylocybin
on hard core atheists, or even better, not even telling them what the
test is about, and see the reaction and what they experience.
Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is
about finding god, to compare.
I think you might enjoy the book The Shaky Game - Einstein, Realism and
the Quantum Theory.
An excerpt...
"Realism is dead. Its death was announced by the neopositivists who
realized that they could accept all the results of science, including
all the members of the scientific zoo, and still declare that the
questions raised by the existence claims of realism were mere pseudo- questions. Its death was hastened by the debates over the inter-
pretation of quantum theory, where Bohr's nonrealist philosophy was seen
to win out over Einstein's passionate realism. Its death was certified, finally, as the last two generations of physical scientists turned their backs on realism and have managed, nevertheless, to do science
successfully without it. To be sure, some recent philo- sophical
literature has appeared to pump up the ghostly shell and to give it new
life. I think these efforts will eventually be seen and understood as
the first stage in the process of mourning, the stage of denial. But I
think we shall pass through this first stage and into that of
acceptance, for realism is well and truly dead, and we have work to get
on with, in identifying a suitable successor."
Let me know if you would like to read more, and I can get you the book
in electronic format (unless you haven't read it already).
some guy tried to merge marxism and buddhism in the same "modern" spirit.
On 09/12/2024 21:53, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/12/2024 15:28, Rich wrote:
ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the >>>> shit hits the fan".
LOL.
Most support contracts are not worth wiping your bottom on.
They are just designed to make money out of.
The sub prime mortgage crisis was typical of such.
"We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
"Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1
guaranteed debt then"
"But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
"Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"
http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/story.jpg
Nice...
Although I doubt that anyone actually asked the "what if" question
about the insurance companies in the run-up to the explosion.
Oh they did. My then BiL was deep into finance and banking at the time and was literally shaking his head in disbelief. The financial times had grave doubts.
Cambridge city council bunged 8 million into Icelandic banks which was stupid. I asked whether the bursar had ever read the FT. The reply came back 'no, he is too busy'
My jaw has never actually returned to the correct place. A man in charge of investing millions of pounds of public money is 'too busy' to read the most important financial paper in the world?
Apparently the job consist in random picking of half a dozen investments from an apprioved list. On that list were several banks that needed rescuing ultimately..
How someone with no apparent experience in finance or accounting got that job I cannot say.
It was the same with GM bonds. GM bonds were - or should have been - junk. GM was essentially bankrupt.
And yet they were trading on the basis that the political fallout from letting GM crash and burn was such that the government would always bail them out
Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers
in WW1? Hmm, maybe not.
How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?
Neither of those grow here. All the needletrees keep their needles all
year long. The larch must be so... naked.
This is a very interesting theory! I would _love_ to do that kind of experiment, tring out some psylocybin on hard core atheists, or even
better, not even telling them what the test is about, and see the
reaction and what they experience.
Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is
about finding god, to compare.
Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this
old trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very pro-windows,
and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not
the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd
take care of everything and that they would never have to see a
terminal, and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.
The guy who wrote Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is a committed
Christian., IN one of his books he likens sin, to stalling an aeroplane. Them's the rules, break than and shit results
On 09/12/2024 22:12, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0100, D wrote:
I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you
mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.
Prophet in his own land... iirc Thomas Merton, who was well versed in
Zen, pointed out the similarities to Christian mysticism and suggested you >> didn't really need to make the 'journey to the east'.
Mysticism is pretty much the same the world over. As I said some consider its the relics of a global shamanism that permeated the dawn of time.
It all deals with non-ordinary states of mind. What differs, is how it is described and tge means by which you obtain them.
On 09/12/2024 23:15, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:
Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
knowledgeable!
I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll >> admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though >> parallels my understanding of the world.
However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't
think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
contra Nietzsche.
The guy who wrote Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is a committed Christian., IN one of his books he likens sin, to stalling an aeroplane. Them's the rules, break than and shit results
"He who shits in the road, will meet flies in his return"
On 10/12/2024 08:58, D wrote:
I would _love_ to do that kind of experiment, tring out some psylocybin on >> hard core atheists, or even better, not even telling them what the test is >> about, and see the reaction and what they experience.
Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is about
finding god, to compare.
My research suggest that everybody ends up in the same place, but some use the language of religion to describe it and some do not.
It is difficult to describe a state of mind in which language and internal verbalisation has broken down.
It is in an utterly prosaic and un 'gosh wow' way 'beyond our comprehension'. To look at something and not recognise it.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:20:41 +0100, D wrote:
Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers
in WW1? Hmm, maybe not.
Wikipedia claims about 150,000 copies of Zarathustra were given out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#cite_note-300
The Kaufmann citation is from 'Nietzsche Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist' and says
"Feelings ran high both in Germany, where Zarathustra was pushed to a new sales record as a "must" for the soldier's knapsack, and in England and
the United States, where Nietzsche began to be considered as the apostle
of German ruthlessness and barbarism."
In his notes on his translation of Zarathustra Kaufmann says there are a
few gems in the mire, a lot of very poor writing, and difficulties translating the puns and so forth. He also trashes Thomas Common's 1909 translation, saying at one point he wasn't sure if Common spoke either English or German very well.
I wouldn't call Kaufmann a hostile translator but he wasn't a real fan.
Being a Jew who fled Germany in 1939 he really hated Foerster-Nietzsche.
He became the Nietzsche expert for a generation but he needs to be taken
with a grain of salt.
How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?
He had left a few notes for a future work but never followed through. Foerster-Nietzsche used the rough outline sort the section headings and collected notes and jottings that seemed to fit. She may have edited some
of those but the real argument is she promoted the collection as
Nietzsche's final magnum opus, rather than Ecce Homo. I have Common's translation of Zarathustra which has a foreword by her. She throws in a
few snippets from 'Ecce Homo' but tried to downplay it since some of it doesn't support her agenda.
fwiw, while Kaudmann might have been full of himself when criticizing
Common, Common's translation reads like the King James bible with all the archaic thee's and thou's.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:58:17 +0100, D wrote:
This is a very interesting theory! I would _love_ to do that kind of
experiment, tring out some psylocybin on hard core atheists, or even
better, not even telling them what the test is about, and see the
reaction and what they experience.
Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is
about finding god, to compare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
"The Army was subject to the testing of LSD which occurred in three
phases. The first phase included over 1,000 American soldiers who
willingly volunteered for testing of chemical warfare experiments. Phase
two had 96 volunteers who were induced with LSD in evaluation of the possibility of intelligence uses of the drug. The third phase included Projects THIRD CHANCE and DERBY HAT which conducted experiments on 16 unwitting nonvolunteer subjects that after receiving LSD were interrogated
as a part of operation field tests.[1]"
"At the invitation of Stanford psychology graduate student Vik Lovell, an acquaintance of Allen Ginsberg, Ken Kesey volunteered to take part in what turned out to be a CIA-financed study under the aegis of MKUltra,[60] at
the Menlo Park Veterans' Hospital[61][62] where he worked as a night aide. [63] The project studied the effects of psychoactive drugs, particularly
LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, cocaine, AMT and DMT on people.[64]"
Kesey said to himself "Man, this is some REALLY good shit!"
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:07:36 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this
old trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very
pro-windows,
and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not
the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd
take care of everything and that they would never have to see a
terminal, and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.
We had two sites that used Linux on the servers although the workstations were Windows. In both cases the administrator was a Linux fan. When they
left or moved up the ladder the servers were moved to Windows.
The guy who wrote Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is a committed
Christian., IN one of his books he likens sin, to stalling an aeroplane.
Them's the rules, break than and shit results
"He who shits in the road, will meet flies in his return"
Kesey said to himself "Man, this is some REALLY good shit!"
I think that fits percetly with the drugs affecting the speech centers! 😉
archaic thee's and thou's.
Interesting. When the times is right, I think I'll have to see for
myself!
On 10/12/2024 21:04, D wrote:
Kesey said to himself "Man, this is some REALLY good shit!"
I think that fits percetly with the drugs affecting the speech centers! 😉
I have somewhere a very old book detailing some of the early research in that area.
In one case the subject was subjected to Rohrsach (Ink blot) tests.
In one case he was shown the blot and asked what it resembled. After a very long pause he said 'squirrels'
After the test was complete his answers were reviewed and he was asked by he had said 'squirrels'.
"Well" he said "I had a lot of trouble understanding the question, but then I did and I looked, and really it don't look like anything. But I thought 'these guys have gone to a lot of trouble, and I don't want to disappoint them', so I looked again. and I thought it looked vaguely like bears, but I couldn't remember the word for bears' so I said 'squirrels' instead"
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:03:06 +0100, D wrote:
archaic thee's and thou's.
Interesting. When the times is right, I think I'll have to see for
myself!
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1998/1998-h/1998-h.htm
That's the Commmon translation with Foedster-Nietzsche's introduction.
Amazon has Hollingdale's translation for the staggering sum of $0.29 on Kindle. There are quite a few other translations of Zarathustra as well as other works that are very inexpensive on Kindle.
A good way to start a fight in a barroom full of Nietzsche scholars is to
ask which is the best English translation. Kaufmann is the usual answer
but he disagreed with much of Nietzsche's thought, hated Common, who was conveniently dead when Kaufmann did his translation, and didn't think much
of Zarathustra. Others like Common, followed by Hollingdale.
The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can really
be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he questions
if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and associations the words had in the original.
Haha. Yes, Kaufmann is the name I've seen pop up the most when I checked Nietzsche translations. On the other hand, I am fairly fluent in german
when it comes to reading, so maybe I should aim higher and actually read
the original? =)
The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can
really be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he
questions if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and
associations the words had in the original.
This is very commonly thought and communicated in russian and chinese culture. The conclusion is of course, the russiand and/or chinese
culture is so sublime it can never be translated or understood by
western barbarians.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 13:39:51 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I've heard about it, but I do not think they supported a laptop last
time I checked it out, and was VM-only, but perhaps things have moved
in the right direction!
This is the truth! As long as I can have some basic tools, vim, xfce,
wifi and decent battery life (oh, and suspend), I'm a happy camper!
It remains mind-boggling to me how poor power-management/laptop support
is in the FOSS world, outside of Linux (which gets it mostly by virtue
of being the proverbial 800-lb. gorilla, relative to the other players.)
OpenBSD I can understand, those people *exclusively* care about server
environments, but it's surprising how spotty NetBSD is with it, and
even moreso something like Haiku which is intended specifically for use
in a desktop personal-computer context...
This is the truth! I get about 14 hours or so out of my 1 year old Asus
with linux if I really make an effort. FreeBSD when I tested it 1 year
ago looked very promising, but since I did not have a lot of time for testing, I never maxed it out.
I followed this guide:
https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2018/11/28/the-power-to-serve-freebsd-power-management/
Had an EEEpc ... great little unit ! Then I dropped it off a ladder
while aligning a security camera :-(
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:07:36 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this
old trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very
pro-windows,
and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not >>> the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd >>> take care of everything and that they would never have to see a
terminal, and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.
We had two sites that used Linux on the servers although the workstations
were Windows. In both cases the administrator was a Linux fan. When they
left or moved up the ladder the servers were moved to Windows.
Yep... a story that is sadly waaaaay too common! And todays story...
some of the students a colleague of mine is currently teaching
networking thought the exam was too difficult, so they told the school
they will refuse taking it, until it is made easier. ;)
The key here is that each students brings the school a nice profit of
8000 EUR per year, so the threat of a student dropping out very often
softens the heart of the school, to the great frustration of the
teachers. =/
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:03:28 +0100, D wrote:
Haha. Yes, Kaufmann is the name I've seen pop up the most when I checked
Nietzsche translations. On the other hand, I am fairly fluent in german
when it comes to reading, so maybe I should aim higher and actually read
the original? =)
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7205/pg7205-images.html
Du grosses Gestirn! Was wäre dein Glück, wenn du nicht Die hättest, welchen du leuchtest!
Common has
"Thou great star! What would be thy happiness if thou hadst not those for whom thou shinest!"
Kaufmann has
"You great star, what would your happiness be had you not those for whom
you shine?"
One criticism of Kaufmann is he rearranges Nietzsche's idiosyncratic punctuation. The newer translations mostly follow Kaufmann, some with slightly different sentence structure or wording. After all when you're
doing the 15th translation you need to do something differently.
The real question is what effect was Nietzsche striving for? His father
was a Lutheran minister so he had plenty of exposure to Luther's bible translation. Was he trying to adopt the tone or parody it?
While the archaic language can put people off Common does capture the feel
of du/sie and behind that the attempt by bible translators to capture the original singular/plural pronoun distinctions.
Personally, I'll go for the readable versions. I'd never read the New Testament due to the traditional two column layout and the somewhat
stilted language. Oddly one of the things issued in boot camp was "Good
News for Modern Man", and I finally got around to reading it. Bible people will argue about the dynamic translation but at least I read it. Of course there wasn't much else to read besides the green book with its wisdom
about which side of a Claymore gets pointed to whoever you're trying to
kill.
The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can
really be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he
questions if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and
associations the words had in the original.
This is very commonly thought and communicated in russian and chinese
culture. The conclusion is of course, the russiand and/or chinese
culture is so sublime it can never be translated or understood by
western barbarians.
On 12/10/24 4:06 PM, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:07:36 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this
old trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very
pro-windows,
Then not worth suffering for ....
and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not >>>> the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd >>>> take care of everything and that they would never have to see a
terminal, and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.
We had two sites that used Linux on the servers although the workstations >>> were Windows. In both cases the administrator was a Linux fan. When they >>> left or moved up the ladder the servers were moved to Windows.
Yep... a story that is sadly waaaaay too common! And todays story... some
of the students a colleague of mine is currently teaching networking
thought the exam was too difficult, so they told the school they will
refuse taking it, until it is made easier. ;)
Then FAIL them all ... no mercy.
The key here is that each students brings the school a nice profit of 8000 >> EUR per year, so the threat of a student dropping out very often softens
the heart of the school, to the great frustration of the teachers. =/
Ah ... Gen-X/A2 ... it it ain't easy/zero-IQ then it's
not worth attempting :-)
Look up the US term "DEI" .....
The SCHOOL - well - the the profit per-student likely
dictates its sympathies .....
Somewhere, at least for now, there WILL be some who
actually want to learn/practice the Black Arts of
Linux/Unix and do-it-yourself programming. HIRE THEM !
Kinda worried about BEYOND Now .....
As some point the "AI" will be called upon to do
it all. Then, for people, it's all MAGIC afterwards.
NO comprehension of what/why/how.
I speak as an oracle here ... just watch ......
SOON NOW - the "AI" will be giving advice/code on
how to improve the "AI". Humans won't Get It - and
will just sign-off on the upgrades in hope of
more $$$. THAT ought to be interesting :-)
A little bit of advice ... while you can ... get
a fairly good general-purpose PC and install one
of the BSDs. OpenIndiana/Solaris is maybe an
offbeat alt (it's OK) and even the odd Plan-9
can be useful (though intended for distributed
systems). This will give you fair access while
kinda circumventing the "AI"s and spy apps and
such for awhile.
In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one
of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
philosophy texts can be bone dry.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:21:18 +0100, D wrote:
In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one
of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern
analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
philosophy texts can be bone dry.
While he ultimately disagreed with him, Nietzsche learned a lot from Schopenhauer. They both are readable. Kant's answer to Hume isn't and
Hegel, well...
It's been a long time since I've read Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein, etc. I chewed on Principia in high school and tried to read some of the others
later in life.
Part of the problem is I realized my brain doesn't work that way. I've
made a living employing logic all my life but it just 'happens'.
I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.
It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and has
the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad. However...
when we look at if the students get jobs after their education, your
program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your students get salaries
above the average for their age group. This is so strange!
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 03:07:45 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Had an EEEpc ... great little unit ! Then I dropped it off a ladder
while aligning a security camera :-(
I've still got mine. The OEM OS wouldn't handle WPA2 so I sidelined it. Earlier this year I got it up and running with Q4OS after a couple of
failed installs when it ran out of room. The Trinity desktop is
lightweight and being a KDE derivative has the Windows XP feel the
original Linux had.
I jumped on it when it first came out as something small and cheap enough
to stuff into a motorcycle saddlebag.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and has
the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad. However...
when we look at if the students get jobs after their education, your
program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your students get salaries
above the average for their age group. This is so strange!
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something
This is why college success measures should be based upon how
employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
employable graduates.
Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover out
of each student during the student's time on campus. And by that
measure they are all resounding successes.
Wow ... he understood this SO far back !
I think I made a VM out of Q4OS but never really did much with it.
Desktops - LXDE if possible, XFCE if not. Like them lean and mean
without 'eye candy' and such crap.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:31:39 +0100, D wrote:
I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones
history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.
Schopenhauer is the original Debbie Downer. In Hollingdale's introduction
to the 'Essays and Aphorisms' selection he theorizes the philosophy
reflects the personality which was molded by events. The family business
went bankrupt and it was a struggle for him to get his money. However he
was stubborn and persistent, making out better than the other creditors.
Then there was his fling at teaching when he scheduled his class in the
same time slot as Hegel's. Nobody came. He could have rescheduled but
chose to resign.
'Will' didn't fly off the shelves. His mother was an author in her own
right. He said that his works would be around long after hers were gone.
She replied with something like, 'Yeah the entire first edition will still
be unsold.' They didn't get along well.
It's been years but iirc Hume's 'An Enquiry Concerning Human
Understanding' was quite readable. His first attempt 'Treatise of Human Nature' was stillborn so he tried again.
Hume triggered Kant's rebuttal and Schopenhauer thought highly of him. I think he gets mentioned once by Nietzsche lumped with the 'English physiologists'.
I don't think I made it through Copleston's entire History but I
definitely remember the cheap paperback volumes. I did make it as far a
Zeno, that's for sure.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and has
the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad. However...
when we look at if the students get jobs after their education, your
program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your students get salaries
above the average for their age group. This is so strange!
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something
This is why college success measures should be based upon how
employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
employable graduates.
Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover out
of each student during the student's time on campus. And by that
measure they are all resounding successes.
On 12/12/24 3:22 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 03:07:45 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Had an EEEpc ... great little unit ! Then I dropped it off a ladder
while aligning a security camera :-(
I've still got mine. The OEM OS wouldn't handle WPA2 so I sidelined it.
Earlier this year I got it up and running with Q4OS after a couple of
failed installs when it ran out of room. The Trinity desktop is
lightweight and being a KDE derivative has the Windows XP feel the
original Linux had.
I jumped on it when it first came out as something small and cheap enough
to stuff into a motorcycle saddlebag.
Exactly - and I've had many motorcycles.
Don't/won't own a 'smartphone' - and at my age it's
hard to focus on tiny text. Small laptops are ideal.
Sometimes people tell me to just use Their App for
some kind of online services ... I pull out my
cheapo flip phone, end of discussion :-)
I see flips have made a COMEBACK. There's an increasing
segment who wants 'simple' and to-the-point without all
the BS. The lid over the main screen is a big plus too.
The EEEpc was affordable and JUST big enough and the
performance was 'ok'. Used it for many years. Linux made
it MUCH better and faster. Alas did not make it immune
to gravity .......
I think I made a VM out of Q4OS but never really did much
with it. Desktops - LXDE if possible, XFCE if not. Like
them lean and mean without 'eye candy' and such crap.
Anyway, today, there are a number of lower-end Dells and
HPs that are fair replacements for the EEEpc. With Win
they suck, with Lin they LIVE. Had to replace the batt
in one of my Dells recently though - the thing was
getting WAY too hot during charging and would never
quite fully charge. However the batt was fairly cheap,
WITH the Dell name, and EZ to replace.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:21:18 +0100, D wrote:
In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one
of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern
analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
philosophy texts can be bone dry.
While he ultimately disagreed with him, Nietzsche learned a lot from
Schopenhauer. They both are readable. Kant's answer to Hume isn't and
Hegel, well...
I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.
It's been a long time since I've read Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein,
etc. I
chewed on Principia in high school and tried to read some of the others
later in life.
Russell is not too bad. He has some nice essays. But his technical work
is not my cup of tea.
Part of the problem is I realized my brain doesn't work that way. I've
made a living employing logic all my life but it just 'happens'.
On 12/12/24 11:56 PM, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and has
the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad. However...
when we look at if the students get jobs after their education, your
program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your students get salaries
above the average for their age group. This is so strange!
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary
depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something
Wow ... he understood this SO far back !
But then there have been bureaucracies, and pointy-haired
bosses, since antiquity ...
This is why college success measures should be based upon how
employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
employable graduates.
Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover out
of each student during the student's time on campus. And by that
measure they are all resounding successes.
MONEY, rather than MERIT, has always been important - but
I think it's become SO much the over-riding factor now
that The Future is seriously endangered.
Read back to the early universities. MOST students were
just fops, kids of Rich Guys. They were sent there for
'prestige' reasons, NOT to actually LEARN anything.
Indeed it was considered pedestrian for 'gentlemen' TO
learn anything. We're talking 1300s/1400s here ... the
pattern was set .......
As for the know-nothing kiddies getting high salaries ...
maybe think of it in 'evolutionary' terms. They will
destroy their employers, then move on and destroy even
more employers. In the end, moronic employers will
be selected-against :-)
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 02:20:53 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Wow ... he understood this SO far back !
Sinclair definitely got it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brass_Check
He was an old school socialist but the fake news stories, suppression of events, and so forth accurately describes today's journalism. He also
wrote 'Oil' about the Teapot Dome scandal, some of which was used in the movie 'There Will Be Blood'.
Have a business partner who thinks exactly the same. He announced a
linux sys admin job a few weeks back, and got 100 replies.
1/3 he threw away because those were indians without swedish knowledge.
1/3 were people about to retire who just want to wait until they are 65,
and he wants someone long term, and not someone who disappear after 1 or
2 years, and 1/3 were from vocational schools, that he by default throws away. The search continues!
One guy couldn't really code, so he searched the internet and asked
questions and arrived at working solutions that way. Respect.
I'm not even your age, but I agree completely. I have a nokia 110 4g,
and it is perfect! Lasts me about 1.5 weeks without charging it.
The only drawback is that I cannot use Uber so I pay 3-4x for a taxi the regular way. =(
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
of 12! My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
[-- text/plain, encoding 8bit, charset: UTF-8, 37 lines --]
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and
has the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad.
However... when we look at if the students get jobs after their
education, your program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your
students get salaries above the average for their age group. This
is so strange!
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary
depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something
This is why college success measures should be based upon how
employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
employable graduates.
Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover
out of each student during the student's time on campus. And by
that measure they are all resounding successes.
Amen!
It is sad that the elite universities have a monopoly on networking.
That's basically the only value you get out of those programs.
If it weren't for the networking part, any smart young man could get
a really good education with all the free books and course material
that's out on the internet, except (I guess) for practical
disciplines that requires extensive labs.
But computer science should be perfectly possible to reach a very
high level by yourself using only your laptop and the internet. But
you won't get the networking and connections though.
On 12/12/2024 20:31, D wrote:
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:21:18 +0100, D wrote:
In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one >>>> of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern
analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
philosophy texts can be bone dry.
While he ultimately disagreed with him, Nietzsche learned a lot from
Schopenhauer. They both are readable. Kant's answer to Hume isn't and
Hegel, well...
I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones
history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.
It's been a long time since I've read Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein, etc. I >>> chewed on Principia in high school and tried to read some of the others
later in life.
Russell is not too bad. He has some nice essays. But his technical work is >> not my cup of tea.
Part of the problem is I realized my brain doesn't work that way. I've
made a living employing logic all my life but it just 'happens'.
On 13/12/2024 10:41, D wrote:
Have a business partner who thinks exactly the same. He announced a linux
sys admin job a few weeks back, and got 100 replies.
1/3 he threw away because those were indians without swedish knowledge. 1/3 >> were people about to retire who just want to wait until they are 65, and he >> wants someone long term, and not someone who disappear after 1 or 2 years, >> and 1/3 were from vocational schools, that he by default throws away. The
search continues!
In my day the vocational schools produced very high quality people who took practical approaches to problem solving.
One guy couldn't really code, so he searched the internet and asked questions and arrived at working solutions that way. Respect.
Another set were bright people with any degree in STEM except computer science.
And a final set were wannabe computer geeks who read all the manuals and explored every single drop down menu entry and ended up rebuilding windows every week.
Very useful at rebuilding customers wrecked windows installs...
On 13 Dec 2024 08:30:53 GMT
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Also I need it for 2FA. The company VPN uses Windows
Authenticator.
FWIW, it looks like WinAuth will run under WINE; that's been my go-to
for any MS Authenticator nonsense. There's probably a native *nix GUI application for this out there somewhere, as well.
https://winauth.github.io/winauth/download.html
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:32:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
One guy couldn't really code, so he searched the internet and asked
questions and arrived at working solutions that way. Respect.
That is one of the qualities I looked for in interviews. Not an entirely accurate example but I knew they didn't have any experience with rust
because it was invented last week. Can they figure it out?
I'm biased because that reflects my personal experience. While RPI was a
top ranked engineering college they didn't even have a computer science degree. We learned FORTRAN as a tool that might be useful in our career.
Over the years I sometimes felt like I was trying to drink from a fire
hose but I figured it out.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:38:03 +0100, D wrote:
I'm not even your age, but I agree completely. I have a nokia 110 4g,
and it is perfect! Lasts me about 1.5 weeks without charging it.
I've got a Nokia 4.2 that's served me well but the battery is starting to degrade. I'll probably go with another Nokia since they seem to have recovered with the HMD partnership.
The only drawback is that I cannot use Uber so I pay 3-4x for a taxi the
regular way. =(
Last winter I had an eye operation where they insisted someone drive you home. I said I would call a cab. The nurse broke the news to me that there weren't any cabs left. I went home and set up an Uber account in
preparation.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that one. In general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
of 12! My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:38:03 +0100, D wrote:
I'm not even your age, but I agree completely. I have a nokia 110 4g,
and it is perfect! Lasts me about 1.5 weeks without charging it.
I've got a Nokia 4.2 that's served me well but the battery is starting to degrade. I'll probably go with another Nokia since they seem to have recovered with the HMD partnership.
The only drawback is that I cannot use Uber so I pay 3-4x for a taxi the
regular way. =(
Last winter I had an eye operation where they insisted someone drive you home. I said I would call a cab. The nurse broke the news to me that there weren't any cabs left. I went home and set up an Uber account in
preparation.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that one. In general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that
one. In
general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.
For me, to exagerate a bit, anglo-american seems more technical and dry, while continentals (incontinentals) seem more like poetry, or chicken
soup for the soul.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
[-- text/plain, encoding 8bit, charset: UTF-8, 37 lines --]
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
It is so strange. Your program fails the most nr of people, and
has the most nr of people leave the program. This is bad.
However... when we look at if the students get jobs after their
education, your program has a 100% job ratio, and all of your
students get salaries above the average for their age group. This
is so strange!
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary >>> depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something
This is why college success measures should be based upon how
employable their graduates are. Gone (or seriously reduced in size)
would be all the degree programs that don't produce gainfully
employable graduates.
Instead the measure is how much student loan money they can hoover
out of each student during the student's time on campus. And by
that measure they are all resounding successes.
Amen!
It is sad that the elite universities have a monopoly on networking.
That's basically the only value you get out of those programs.
If it weren't for the networking part, any smart young man could get
a really good education with all the free books and course material
that's out on the internet, except (I guess) for practical
disciplines that requires extensive labs.
But computer science should be perfectly possible to reach a very
high level by yourself using only your laptop and the internet. But
you won't get the networking and connections though.
Nor get the "magic sheet of paper" that says you passed all the rote memorization tests.
And with so many jobs requiring the "magic sheet of paper" to even
quallify to apply, it would be hard for that 'self taught' CS person to
get their foot in the door to show that they were as good (or, from
what I've seen, likely better) as many of the H1B's the company is
otherwise hiring.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out >>> of 12! My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in
thought.
Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
Ah... he taught me well! ;) Any suggestions about a similar book about
them, but with a more loving touch?
It is a nice feeling that I was able to give them a good start with
their IT careers.
s that really so important in the tech-sector? When I was young I'd meet
many people in IT with very diverse backgrounds. But maybe it has become worse the past decade? =(
On 14/12/2024 10:54, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that one. In >>> general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.
For me, to exagerate a bit, anglo-american seems more technical and dry,
while continentals (incontinentals) seem more like poetry, or chicken soup >> for the soul.
Yes. . To the extent that you have the Kierkegaard...couldn't get beyond chapter one...
On 14/12/2024 10:40, D wrote:
It is a nice feeling that I was able to give them a good start with their
IT careers.
My company was never able to pay the people what they were worth, but yes, I have great hopes that some of the people we employed went on to better [paid] things, with my small help
On 14/12/2024 10:28, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
Ah... he taught me well! ;) Any suggestions about a similar book about
them, but with a more loving touch?
There was a series of interviews on BBC television back in the day when it had intelligent content where Bryan Magee talks with various philosophers about other philosophers.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhP9EhPApKE8B-g03RivIMt7llh1cyEGV
I really recommend these.
Copplestone is adamant that 'this is what they said, but of course I don't agree'
Hilary Putnam is my idea of the greatest philosopher of the 20th century, along with Sir Roger Scruton.
If you don't like woke leftism, Scruton is your man. He tore the New Left to pieces beautifully, but being in some sense a Christian, he didn't twist the knife in afterwards.
"Fools, Frauds and Firebrands: Thinkers of the New Left" is a hoot. Unless you are one of them...
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/12/2024 10:54, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that
one. In
general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.
For me, to exagerate a bit, anglo-american seems more technical and
dry, while continentals (incontinentals) seem more like poetry, or
chicken soup for the soul.
Yes. . To the extent that you have the Kierkegaard...couldn't get
beyond chapter one...
I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl
Jaspers, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out >>>> of 12! My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and >>>> the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very >>>> uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until >>>> the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought. >>>
Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!
Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it clearly separates the term, from the reality it describes.
Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.
The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in that he regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.
As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid model in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not - was to be distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....
The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science of the Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.
The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths and Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to Materialism and Laws of Nature.
"Maps of consciousness" as Ralph Metzner put it.
On 14/12/2024 10:40, D wrote:
It is a nice feeling that I was able to give them a good start with
their IT careers.
My company was never able to pay the people what they were worth, but
yes, I have great hopes that some of the people we employed went on to
better [paid] things, with my small help
I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl
Jaspers,
but haven't gotten around to it yet.
On 14/12/2024 12:08, D wrote:
s that really so important in the tech-sector? When I was young I'd meet
many people in IT with very diverse backgrounds. But maybe it has become
worse the past decade? =(
I ended work as a programmer because all the new kids on the block wanted someone who spoke the same compSci gobbledygook as they did:
'must have experience of Blatweiler's functional decomposition techniques' and 'be fluent in the formal prototyping language Z'.
Which was immediately understood that a compSci had got given a project, had tried to use some thing he had learnt at Uni, fucked it up completely and needed someone to get him out of a self inflicted disaster.
Not tell him to throw that shit down the toilet and learn how to run a software project.
I always drive home and don't tell them
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first
book out
of 12! My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and >>>>> the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very,
very
uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until >>>>> the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in
thought.
Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!
Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it
clearly separates the term, from the reality it describes.
Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.
The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in
that he regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.
As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid
model in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not
- was to be distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....
What is your opinion on the transcendental error?
The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is
what has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s tendency to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of
reality itself.
According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant
correctly seeks to explore what we can understand about our experiences,
he mistakenly concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive faculties on a reality that could be structured differently.
This leads
to an incoherent position where one cannot meaningfully consider a
reality devoid of these structures because such a consideration relies
on the very cognitive faculties that Kant claims impose those
structures. Thus, this misunderstanding undermines the objective status
of knowledge and reality.
In The Bounds of Sense, P. F. Strawson suggests a reading of Kant's
first Critique that, once accepted, forces rejection of most of the
original arguments, including transcendental idealism. Strawson contends that, had Kant followed out the implications of all that he said, he
would have seen that there were many self-contradictions implicit in the whole.[12]: 403
Strawson views the analytic argument of the transcendental deduction as
the most valuable idea in the text, and regards transcendental idealism
as an unavoidable error in Kant's greatly productive system.
In
Strawson's traditional reading (also favored in the work of Paul Guyer
and Rae Langton), the Kantian term phenomena (literally, things that can
be seen—from Greek: phainomenon, "observable") refers to the world of appearances, or the world of "things" sensed.[13]: 99–101 They are tagged as "phenomena" to remind the reader that humans confuse these derivative appearances with whatever may be the forever unavailable
"things in themselves" behind our perceptions.
The necessary
preconditions of experience, the components that humans bring to their apprehending of the world, the forms of perception such as space and
time, are what make a priori judgments possible, but all of this process
of comprehending what lies fundamental to human experience fails to
bring anyone beyond the inherent limits of human sensibility.
Kant's
system requires the existence of noumena to prevent a rejection of
external reality altogether, and it is this concept (senseless objects
of which we can have no real understanding) to which Strawson objects in
his book.
The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish
mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science
of the Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.
The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a
fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths
and Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to
Materialism and Laws of Nature.
A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe?
It is very interesting!
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:02:23 +0100, D wrote:
I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl
Jaspers,
but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Another golden oldie. Existentialism was the cool thing in my youth and Jaspers was often thrown into that bag along with Buber, Tillich, Sartre, Camus and the rest of the usual suspects.
head or under my feet, I'm not sure which. The offshoots like the theater
of the absurd were absurd. Sitting through 'The Bald Soprano' was a once
in a lifetime experience, I hope.
On 14/12/2024 18:02, D wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/12/2024 10:54, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:42:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Copplestone hated Kant and schopenhauer
I've got to hunt down his volume on the Germans. I never read that one. >>>>> In
general Anglo-American and Continental philosophy go in separate
directions. I feel more comfortable with the continentals.
For me, to exagerate a bit, anglo-american seems more technical and dry, >>>> while continentals (incontinentals) seem more like poetry, or chicken
soup for the soul.
Yes. . To the extent that you have the Kierkegaard...couldn't get beyond >>> chapter one...
I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl Jaspers,
but haven't gotten around to it yet.
I am not sure it was worth buying the book frankly.
Enormous quantities of philosophy can safely be ignored by most people and a fair chunk by everybody.
An awful lot is trying to keep Christianity alive against the onslaught of rational materialism.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:02:23 +0100, D wrote:
I thought about looking into Kierkegaard after reading some Karl
Jaspers,
but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Another golden oldie. Existentialism was the cool thing in my youth and Jaspers was often thrown into that bag along with Buber, Tillich, Sartre, Camus and the rest of the usual suspects. Most of it either went over my
head or under my feet, I'm not sure which. The offshoots like the theater
of the absurd were absurd. Sitting through 'The Bald Soprano' was a once
in a lifetime experience, I hope.
Alternatively, move up a generation and
see how is/was inspired by Jaspers.
ArtStudents™ all...
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:59:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
ArtStudents™ all...
Definitely. Keeping with the times the oldest technological institute in
the US was trying to reinvent itself as a university and wanted to broaden the horizons of STEM philistines so they would bring speakers and performances on campus.
Long after I graduated they completely jumped the shark.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Experimental_Media_and_Performing_Arts_Center
That would be fine but their rating slipped from the top 3 to somewhere in the middle of the pack. They're putting a lot of emphasis on a degree
program in video gaming and hope to revitalize the local economy with
gaming companies.
I'm not much of a gamer but I do realize the industry rakes in money like porn sites so maybe they're on to something. At least the DEI president
who was once the highest paid private school president is gone. They
didn't get their money's worth. She checked off the black and female boxes but afaik she wasn't a lesbian.
Alumni association emails go directly to the junk folder.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:05:48 +0100, D wrote:
Alternatively, move up a generation and
see how is/was inspired by Jaspers.
Jaspers was sort of a dead end and his work on psychopathology may have
had more of an impact than his philosophy. He was Arendt's thesis advisor
and did have some influence on her.
Postwar German philosophy was a food fight with a lot of personalities involved. The Frankfurt School captured a lot of attention.
What is your opinion on the transcendental error?
The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is what >> has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s tendency
to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of reality
itself.
I never thought that at all. He was in fact completely distinct in his thinking between 'the world in itself' and 'the world of our perceptions., as being utterly different - though related.
Many materialist simply cannot understand it - to them the world is what they think it is and see it as, and therefore Kant is simply nonsense.
According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly seeks to
explore what we can understand about our experiences, he mistakenly
concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive faculties on a
reality that could be structured differently.
That is exactly right, and to my certain knowledge it can be: Because Strawson cant do it doesn't mean it cant be done.
Strawson seems to be a Beleiver. He wants there to be a simple objective reality that we can grasp. Kant says 'its there, but we cannot grasp it: It has to go through our processes of categorisation before it is intelligible to us'.
Kant's system requires the existence of noumena to prevent a rejection ofWell there ya go. If you are creating a real metaphysical system you end up with awkward bits that many people don't like.
external reality altogether, and it is this concept (senseless objects of
which we can have no real understanding) to which Strawson objects in his
book.
Strawson presumably didn't like quantum physics either :-)
I shuffled this all around in my head and came to various conclusions and people said 'you sound like Schopenhauer' and a friend who is a philosophy professor threw Kant at me and he was right. I had arrived in the same ballpark as Kant. And more so Schopenhauer, at least in the context of the best model of what 'external reality' was.
But I disagreed with both of them on the moral and life choice conclusions they drew, as far as I can remember.
The 'problem' of transcendental idealism is it must needs introduce an element that is anathema to materialist and realist alike , and that is the necessary postulating of an independent entity that takes 'whatever is the case' - the 'world-in-itself' - the 'noumenal world' and turns it into [maps it, performs a 'transform' on it] the 'phenomenal world' that everybody casually takes as 'real'.
Dyed in the wool materialists don't want consciousness and choice to be independent. They have already decided to make them emergent properties of *matter*, and so they think Kant is a cunt, trying possibly to reintroduce the supernatural by the back door.
My own thought is that right or wrong, the answers that that model gives, solve a huge amount of subjectivity in the human experience.
A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe? It >> is very interesting!I spent many years looking at religions, magical systems, cults and so on. And the paranormal and unexplained 'weird shit'. It is even more peppered with total bullshit than philosophy, but it does give a clue as to how weird some peoples minds are.
And now and again I glimpsed something that might have made sense, if it hadn't been reported by complete idiots who couldn't think clearly.
Some one said once I should invent a new religion. I did a test. I invented the Church of the Yo-yo. Believe in the Yo-yo and be saved. I had a great little electric yo-yo . Mesmerising. Some twit from the 'children of God' even believed me.
I stopped there. I don't lust for power over peoples minds, and their purses.
Funnily enough, I was very familiar with UFO cults and the like and the 'men in black meme' and when the film came out I was super amused when one of my employees insisted in explaining what 'men in black' were.
I didn't think admitting I probably knew ten times more than they did was consistent with running an orderly business.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Many materialist simply cannot understand it - to them the world is
what they think it is and see it as, and therefore Kant is simply
nonsense.
Yes, I think we've established that this is why we keep talking past
each other on this subject. Were you at one point in the materialist
camp, and then you reached enlightenment, or did you always feel that
the materialist camp was unsatisfactory, and after Kant everything sort
of clicked into place for you?
According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly seeks
to explore what we can understand about our experiences, he
mistakenly concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive
faculties on a reality that could be structured differently.
That is exactly right, and to my certain knowledge it can be: Because
Strawson cant do it doesn't mean it cant be done.
This is true. I was curious about what you would say about Strawsons argument.
Strawson seems to be a Beleiver. He wants there to be a simple
objective reality that we can grasp. Kant says 'its there, but we
cannot grasp it: It has to go through our processes of categorisation
before it is intelligible to us'.
I think the point is that, if we can never grasp it, we can never say it
is or anything about it, and I think that is why he argues it collapses
into idealism, or potentially, solipsism.
Kant's system requires the existence of noumena to prevent aWell there ya go. If you are creating a real metaphysical system you
rejection of external reality altogether, and it is this concept
(senseless objects of which we can have no real understanding) to
which Strawson objects in his book.
end up with awkward bits that many people don't like.
Strawson presumably didn't like quantum physics either :-)
This is another very interesting topic. Which interpretation is true, is anyone
of them true? Or should we adopt the stance and "shut up and calculate"?
The 'problem' of transcendental idealism is it must needs introduce an
element that is anathema to materialist and realist alike , and that
is the necessary postulating of an independent entity that takes
'whatever is the case' - the 'world-in-itself' - the 'noumenal world'
and turns it into [maps it, performs a 'transform' on it] the
'phenomenal world' that everybody casually takes as 'real'.
I think this is the fundamental disagreement and what Strawson feels is the fundamental error that collapses it into idealism.
Dyed in the wool materialists don't want consciousness and choice to
be independent. They have already decided to make them emergent
properties of *matter*, and so they think Kant is a cunt, trying
possibly to reintroduce the supernatural by the back door.
This makes a lot of sense to me.
My own thought is that right or wrong, the answers that that model
gives, solve a huge amount of subjectivity in the human experience.
Each answer has its own pros and cons. Since it's philosophy, there is
always the risk that the conversation will still be going on in a 1000
years. ;)
Thank you for your comments and explanation. I think I understand you
better
now, and where the key-disagreement is.
A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of scienceI spent many years looking at religions, magical systems, cults and so
maybe? It is very interesting!
on. And the paranormal and unexplained 'weird shit'. It is even more
peppered with total bullshit than philosophy, but it does give a clue
as to how weird some peoples minds are.
This is the truth! It seems to me that "magic" has collapsed into pop-psychology
in our current day and age. I am very interested in the subject, from that angle. I think magic dovetails nicely with the philosophy of Feyerabend and perhaps you can add a pinch of pragmatism as well.
At least that seems to be the justification I get when talking to "occultists" and wiccans.
Funnily enough, I was very familiar with UFO cults and the like and
the 'men in black meme' and when the film came out I was super amused
when one of my employees insisted in explaining what 'men in black' were.
I didn't think admitting I probably knew ten times more than they did
was consistent with running an orderly business.
Maybe you stopped too soon? If not, you would have had a nice old age,
with many
young women to support you! ;)
On 15/12/2024 11:11, D wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Many materialist simply cannot understand it - to them the world is what >>> they think it is and see it as, and therefore Kant is simply nonsense.
Yes, I think we've established that this is why we keep talking past each
other on this subject. Were you at one point in the materialist camp, and
then you reached enlightenment, or did you always feel that the materialist >> camp was unsatisfactory, and after Kant everything sort of clicked into
place for you?
I was firmly in the materialist camp. Id been taught science and that was the way I understood the world.
Having to reluctantly dump that model in the face of the evidence was very hard.
Id never seen it before, but it was very comprehensible once I looked up the meaning of some of t he terms he is using.According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly seeks to >>>> explore what we can understand about our experiences, he mistakenly
concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive faculties on a >>>> reality that could be structured differently.
That is exactly right, and to my certain knowledge it can be: Because
Strawson cant do it doesn't mean it cant be done.
This is true. I was curious about what you would say about Strawsons
argument.
He4 sort of buys part of the argument but rejects the conclusions mainly on the grounds as far as I can tell that it doesn't get him where he wants to go.
Which seems to me to be the certainty of the materialist's credo.
He wants to know 'what's really there' and Kant says 'we cant ever know that'
Strawson seems to be a Beleiver. He wants there to be a simple objective >>> reality that we can grasp. Kant says 'its there, but we cannot grasp it: >>> It has to go through our processes of categorisation before it is
intelligible to us'.
I think the point is that, if we can never grasp it, we can never say it is >> or anything about it, and I think that is why he argues it collapses into
idealism, or potentially, solipsism.
That is his mistake. He is unable to grasps the difference between 'realism-materialness, Idealism and Transcendental Idealism, which is a hybrid
To put it it a bastardised mathematical notation materialism is:
P,C=f(R) - what we Perceive is ONLY a function of what's really there. Ans so is consciousness.
Whereas Idealism is :
P,R=f(C) - What we Perceive as Reality is simply an emergent property of Consciousness or Mind.
Thank you for your comments and explanation. I think I understand you better >> now, and where the key-disagreement is.
Ultimately there is no real disagreement, in that in your world view you places things in a certain pattern. The transcendental deduction invalidates that pattern perhaps, but you - and Strawson do not want to take the leap to the logical conclusion because it is profoundly uncomfortable and deeply humiliating.
As a species, we don't know jack shit about anything.
We discover we have metaphysical choices that are life changing., Religious conversion perhaps - but we have no idea why we ought to make those choices.
This is the truth! It seems to me that "magic" has collapsed into
pop-psychology
It always was.
Yesterdays black magicians are today's politicians, marketing executives and creatives. Weaving spells to enslave you, take your money, and control your behaviour.
At least that seems to be the justification I get when talking to
"occultists" and wiccans.
I gave up on them both., They didn't understand what they were doing.
I remember popping into a little bookshop in my local town and meeting a girl who used to run an occult bookshop in London. I said hi and she said 'who sent you?'
I mean look at Putin. Classic psychopath in a society ruled by fellow...
He needs to be put down like a rabid dog.
Nietzsche says 'be strong' I say 'fuck that, I want some peace'. I will be more or less invisible instead. :-)
But realism doesn't allow for this subjectivity. A realist believes in the truth of his ideas. That is supremely dangerous.
The idealist magician believes his ideas form other peoples reality.
Equally dangerous.
Maybe you stopped too soon? If not, you would have had a nice old age, with >> many young women to support you! ;)
Christ! One was bad enough. No support whatsoever. The only thing I agree with Nietzsche on is that 'all women's problems are solved by pregnancy'
The Zulu says 'women are strange cattle'
They are dominated by hormones - more so than even men are. And they can sublimate them but never eliminate them.
The current pretence is that we are all free and enlightened, but no, we are not. We are, just underneath, animals trying to mate, in a blind sort of urge.
And no amount of lipstick turns that pig into an angel
The best people are those who accept that as a truth and do not go into denial.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 02:20:58 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:BeOS and Haiku with the Hey command disagree.
On 11/20/24 10:46 AM, Rich wrote:
If JS or Perl are your yardstick for "never liked" you must never have
attempted to write an AutoHotKey script to automate something on a
windows machine.
Tried a hotkey daemon once, DOS-era, but eventually bought one writ
by better programmers. Automated Winders ... again a real pain in the
ass.
GUIs were never designed to be automated. Which is why trying to do so is fiddly, fragile and just plain unreliable.
DOS was better at that.
Command line, of course -- naturally better for automation purposes.
Though the DOS one was a pitiful toy reimplementation of what was, and
still is, available on *nix systems.
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