Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
On 22.01.2025 00:19 Uhr 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
Maybe they restrict posting to avoid abuse.
Ask the admin of it.
On 1/22/25 3:00 PM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 22.01.2025 00:19 Uhr 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
Maybe they restrict posting to avoid abuse.
Ask the admin of it.
Yep, they don't allow posting anymore - too
many spammers. None of the other freebies
seem to work at all any more or want you
to "register". Some ISPs block port 119.
This is not good.
My provider finally did fix it. Alas they
may only have one old guy who knows how
the NNTP server works. Don't think they
even offer it to newbies anymore.
By modern standards, usenet is kinda small
data-wise - and mostly just text. Would not
take a super-box. Maybe some people are
worried about liability - lots of weird
stuff here ? Perhaps someone in a kinda
off-the-map country can start a new free
service. (hmmm ... Belize maybe?)
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 1/22/25 3:00 PM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 22.01.2025 00:19 Uhr 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
Maybe they restrict posting to avoid abuse.
Ask the admin of it.
Yep, they don't allow posting anymore - too
many spammers. None of the other freebies
seem to work at all any more or want you
to "register". Some ISPs block port 119.
This is not good.
My provider finally did fix it. Alas they
may only have one old guy who knows how
the NNTP server works. Don't think they
even offer it to newbies anymore.
By modern standards, usenet is kinda small
data-wise - and mostly just text. Would not
take a super-box. Maybe some people are
worried about liability - lots of weird
stuff here ? Perhaps someone in a kinda
off-the-map country can start a new free
service. (hmmm ... Belize maybe?)
I think it should be entirely feasible, and fairly cheap, to start your
own usenet provider on a few hetzner VM:s. The only thing you'd need is
a few peers, inn (or equivalent) and off you go.
I've toyed with the idea myself from time to time, but so far haven't
had the time to do something about it since other projects have priority.
On 23/01/2025 15:44, D wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 1/22/25 3:00 PM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 22.01.2025 00:19 Uhr 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
Maybe they restrict posting to avoid abuse.
Ask the admin of it.
Yep, they don't allow posting anymore - too
many spammers. None of the other freebies
seem to work at all any more or want you
to "register". Some ISPs block port 119.
This is not good.
My provider finally did fix it. Alas they
may only have one old guy who knows how
the NNTP server works. Don't think they
even offer it to newbies anymore.
By modern standards, usenet is kinda small
data-wise - and mostly just text. Would not
take a super-box. Maybe some people are
worried about liability - lots of weird
stuff here ? Perhaps someone in a kinda
off-the-map country can start a new free
service. (hmmm ... Belize maybe?)
I think it should be entirely feasible, and fairly cheap, to start your own >> usenet provider on a few hetzner VM:s. The only thing you'd need is a few
peers, inn (or equivalent) and off you go.
I've toyed with the idea myself from time to time, but so far haven't had
the time to do something about it since other projects have priority.
Yep.
I have set up a few INN servers. The problem back in the day was the binary newsgroups - people uploading pirate images of massive size..
It does take a bit of looking after. If you let everyone access it before you know it there is a huge amount of illegal shit being transferred on legitimate newsgroups, ratware is smashing against every door it can find and people are trying to DOS it just because someone called them out for being a doofus.
But technically its not hard to do for a small community of users
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/01/2025 15:44, D wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 1/22/25 3:00 PM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 22.01.2025 00:19 Uhr 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
Maybe they restrict posting to avoid abuse.
Ask the admin of it.
Yep, they don't allow posting anymore - too
many spammers. None of the other freebies
seem to work at all any more or want you
to "register". Some ISPs block port 119.
This is not good.
My provider finally did fix it. Alas they
may only have one old guy who knows how
the NNTP server works. Don't think they
even offer it to newbies anymore.
By modern standards, usenet is kinda small
data-wise - and mostly just text. Would not
take a super-box. Maybe some people are
worried about liability - lots of weird
stuff here ? Perhaps someone in a kinda
off-the-map country can start a new free
service. (hmmm ... Belize maybe?)
I think it should be entirely feasible, and fairly cheap, to start
your own usenet provider on a few hetzner VM:s. The only thing you'd
need is a few peers, inn (or equivalent) and off you go.
I've toyed with the idea myself from time to time, but so far haven't
had the time to do something about it since other projects have
priority.
Yep.
I have set up a few INN servers. The problem back in the day was the
binary newsgroups - people uploading pirate images of massive size..
Isn't it very easy to just not offer the binary crap? There are way
better methods today to get your hands on binaries than trawling through newsgroups downloading and integrating small compressed files.
It does take a bit of looking after. If you let everyone access it
before you know it there is a huge amount of illegal shit being
transferred on legitimate newsgroups, ratware is smashing against
every door it can find and people are trying to DOS it just because
someone called them out for being a doofus.
It is very interesting! How long before someone would try and destroy
your publicly available free news server? ;)
On the other hand, one could always hope that the nr of people who even
know what it is is so small that it could live happily unmoderated!
On the other hand, if spam increases too much or the complaints keep
piling up, maybe the peers will drop you?
But technically its not hard to do for a small community of users
A hobby project for you? =)
On 1/23/25 4:05 PM, D wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/01/2025 15:44, D wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 1/22/25 3:00 PM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 22.01.2025 00:19 Uhr 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
Maybe they restrict posting to avoid abuse.
Ask the admin of it.
Yep, they don't allow posting anymore - too
many spammers. None of the other freebies
seem to work at all any more or want you
to "register". Some ISPs block port 119.
This is not good.
My provider finally did fix it. Alas they
may only have one old guy who knows how
the NNTP server works. Don't think they
even offer it to newbies anymore.
By modern standards, usenet is kinda small
data-wise - and mostly just text. Would not
take a super-box. Maybe some people are
worried about liability - lots of weird
stuff here ? Perhaps someone in a kinda
off-the-map country can start a new free
service. (hmmm ... Belize maybe?)
I think it should be entirely feasible, and fairly cheap, to start your >>>> own usenet provider on a few hetzner VM:s. The only thing you'd need is a >>>> few peers, inn (or equivalent) and off you go.
I've toyed with the idea myself from time to time, but so far haven't had >>>> the time to do something about it since other projects have priority.
Yep.
I have set up a few INN servers. The problem back in the day was the
binary newsgroups - people uploading pirate images of massive size..
Isn't it very easy to just not offer the binary crap? There are way better >> methods today to get your hands on binaries than trawling through
newsgroups downloading and integrating small compressed files.
It does take a bit of looking after. If you let everyone access it before >>> you know it there is a huge amount of illegal shit being transferred on
legitimate newsgroups, ratware is smashing against every door it can find >>> and people are trying to DOS it just because someone called them out for >>> being a doofus.
It is very interesting! How long before someone would try and destroy your >> publicly available free news server? ;)
On the other hand, one could always hope that the nr of people who even
know what it is is so small that it could live happily unmoderated!
On the other hand, if spam increases too much or the complaints keep piling >> up, maybe the peers will drop you?
But technically its not hard to do for a small community of users
A hobby project for you? =)
There must be something in-between usenet and 'X' - http
rather than p119. Simple interface but hooks for better
alternative reader apps.
Remember BBS's ? The trick was that there was usually only
ONE server holding all the messages. Depending, this is not
necessarily terrible. The spreads-it-around nature of usenet
is interesting, good redundancy, but the number of feed servers
seems to be decreasing, fewer and fewer sources for the articles.
As for binaries ... you just set a reasonable limit for msg size,
and forbid .part's. A detector for ascii-encoded bin will work too.
As such, a modern BBS - prob with one or two fail-over servers -
would be the middle path. Structure everything like usenet,
just NOT usenet. Could even pipe in actual usenet articles,
for as long as they last.
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's
sort of a prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU
and beyond. As said, such a system needs to be located in
a who-knows/cares-country where it's hard to get at legally.
There must be something in-between usenet and 'X' - http
rather than p119. Simple interface but hooks for better
alternative reader apps.
Remember BBS's ? The trick was that there was usually only ONE
server holding all the messages. Depending, this is not necessarily
terrible. The spreads-it-around nature of usenet is interesting,
good redundancy, but the number of feed servers seems to be
decreasing, fewer and fewer sources for the articles.
As for binaries ... you just set a reasonable limit for msg size,
and forbid .part's. A detector for ascii-encoded bin will work too.
As such, a modern BBS - prob with one or two fail-over servers -
would be the middle path. Structure everything like usenet,
just NOT usenet. Could even pipe in actual usenet articles,
for as long as they last.
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's sort of a
prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU and beyond. As
said, such a system needs to be located in a who-knows/cares-country
where it's hard to get at legally.
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/01/2025 15:44, D wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 1/22/25 3:00 PM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 22.01.2025 00:19 Uhr 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
Maybe they restrict posting to avoid abuse.
Ask the admin of it.
Yep, they don't allow posting anymore - too
many spammers. None of the other freebies
seem to work at all any more or want you
to "register". Some ISPs block port 119.
This is not good.
My provider finally did fix it. Alas they
may only have one old guy who knows how
the NNTP server works. Don't think they
even offer it to newbies anymore.
By modern standards, usenet is kinda small
data-wise - and mostly just text. Would not
take a super-box. Maybe some people are
worried about liability - lots of weird
stuff here ? Perhaps someone in a kinda
off-the-map country can start a new free
service. (hmmm ... Belize maybe?)
I think it should be entirely feasible, and fairly cheap, to start
your own usenet provider on a few hetzner VM:s. The only thing you'd
need is a few peers, inn (or equivalent) and off you go.
I've toyed with the idea myself from time to time, but so far haven't
had the time to do something about it since other projects have
priority.
Yep.
I have set up a few INN servers. The problem back in the day was the
binary newsgroups - people uploading pirate images of massive size..
Isn't it very easy to just not offer the binary crap? There are way
better methods today to get your hands on binaries than trawling through newsgroups downloading and integrating small compressed files.
It does take a bit of looking after. If you let everyone access it
before you know it there is a huge amount of illegal shit being
transferred on legitimate newsgroups, ratware is smashing against
every door it can find and people are trying to DOS it just because
someone called them out for being a doofus.
It is very interesting! How long before someone would try and destroy
your publicly available free news server? ;)
On the other hand, one could always hope that the nr of people who even
know what it is is so small that it could live happily unmoderated!
On the other hand, if spam increases too much or the complaints keep
piling up, maybe the peers will drop you?
But technically its not hard to do for a small community of users
A hobby project for you? =)
I’m pretty sure most of my Usenet peers are essentially hobbyists. It’s not hard to carry a text feed, a cheap Linux VPS is more than adequate.
But hobbyists generally don’t often want the hassle of a nontrivial userbase.
methods today to get your hands on binaries than trawling through
newsgroups downloading and integrating small compressed files.
Most servers have dropped the binaries, but that doesn't stop someone ouplading a load of crap to a text NG
These days a month or two.It does take a bit of looking after. If you let everyone access it before >>> you know it there is a huge amount of illegal shit being transferred on
legitimate newsgroups, ratware is smashing against every door it can find >>> and people are trying to DOS it just because someone called them out for >>> being a doofus.
It is very interesting! How long before someone would try and destroy your >> publicly available free news server? ;)
I play and online MPORPG - apperenly someone who got thrown off it for breaking the rules flooded it with gigabits per second to trash it.
I mean its only a game FFS!
On the other hand, one could always hope that the nr of people who evenThere is ratware out there that probes all well known ports on any IP address there is and publishes what they find.
know what it is is so small that it could live happily unmoderated!
My two online servers are bombarded with ssh requests to log as root or any other name.
The SMTP port is also subject to random attempts to authenticate as is the POP3 port.
In ten + years they never have cracked it.
On the other hand, if spam increases too much or the complaints keep piling >> up, maybe the peers will drop you?I doubt it. 70% of usenet is spam or eejits anyway.
But technically its not hard to do for a small community of users
A hobby project for you? =)
Got too many already. I'll let eternal September take the strain :-)
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/01/2025 15:44, D wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 1/22/25 3:00 PM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 22.01.2025 00:19 Uhr 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
Maybe they restrict posting to avoid abuse.
Ask the admin of it.
Yep, they don't allow posting anymore - too
many spammers. None of the other freebies
seem to work at all any more or want you
to "register". Some ISPs block port 119.
This is not good.
My provider finally did fix it. Alas they
may only have one old guy who knows how
the NNTP server works. Don't think they
even offer it to newbies anymore.
By modern standards, usenet is kinda small
data-wise - and mostly just text. Would not
take a super-box. Maybe some people are
worried about liability - lots of weird
stuff here ? Perhaps someone in a kinda
off-the-map country can start a new free
service. (hmmm ... Belize maybe?)
I think it should be entirely feasible, and fairly cheap, to start
your own usenet provider on a few hetzner VM:s. The only thing
you'd need is a few peers, inn (or equivalent) and off you go.
I've toyed with the idea myself from time to time, but so far
haven't had the time to do something about it since other projects
have priority.
Yep.
I have set up a few INN servers. The problem back in the day was
the binary newsgroups - people uploading pirate images of massive
size..
Isn't it very easy to just not offer the binary crap?
There are way better methods today to get your hands on binaries than trawling through newsgroups downloading and integrating small
compressed files.
It does take a bit of looking after. If you let everyone access it
before you know it there is a huge amount of illegal shit being
transferred on legitimate newsgroups, ratware is smashing against
every door it can find and people are trying to DOS it just because
someone called them out for being a doofus.
It is very interesting! How long before someone would try and
destroy your publicly available free news server? ;)
On the other hand, if spam increases too much or the complaints keep
piling up, maybe the peers will drop you?
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's sort of
a prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU and beyond. As
said, such a system needs to be located in a
who-knows/cares-country where it's hard to get at legally.
In europe I would not worry about it at all.
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look.
Third, the responsibility of the post is the posters and not yours
(at least in my jurisdiction).
At _worst_ your responsibility is to remove the content from your
servers, if asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's sort of
a prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU and beyond. As
said, such a system needs to be located in a
who-knows/cares-country where it's hard to get at legally.
In europe I would not worry about it at all.
Europe is, sadly, one place where if you are in the wrong locality, you
*very much* have to worry about it.
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look.
No, but the 'busybodies', should they every notice (or be told about
it) *will* go running to the ones in power in order to tattle on you.
Third, the responsibility of the post is the posters and not yours
(at least in my jurisdiction).
That is not a common legal framework everywhere. It is the US
framework due to the DMCA, but other world governments do not have such liability exclusions for the site operator.
At _worst_ your responsibility is to remove the content from your
servers, if asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
Not in all countries. In some countries, the mere fact that your
server had it, for even a millisecond, available for someone to see is enouogh to get you, the site operator, a trip to the gulag.
Try setting up a webserver in Thiland or Indonesia and insulting the
royal family of each respective country.
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I play and online MPORPG - apperenly someone who got thrown off it for
breaking the rules flooded it with gigabits per second to trash it.
I mean its only a game FFS!
This is very sad. I bet if they met many beautiful women, they would stop wasting time on trying to take down gaming servers. ;)
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's sort of
a prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU and beyond. As
said, such a system needs to be located in a
who-knows/cares-country where it's hard to get at legally.
In europe I would not worry about it at all.
Europe is, sadly, one place where if you are in the wrong locality, you
*very much* have to worry about it.
In which locality in europe would you have to worry about posts on usenet?
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
There must be something in-between usenet and 'X' - http
rather than p119. Simple interface but hooks for better
alternative reader apps.
There’s multiple options out there. However by now Usenet users for the most part have either found alternatives that suit them, or are so stuck
in their ways that nothing other than Usenet will do...
Remember BBS's ? The trick was that there was usually only ONE
server holding all the messages. Depending, this is not necessarily
terrible. The spreads-it-around nature of usenet is interesting,
good redundancy, but the number of feed servers seems to be
decreasing, fewer and fewer sources for the articles.
I’m pretty sure most of my Usenet peers are essentially hobbyists. It’s not hard to carry a text feed, a cheap Linux VPS is more than adequate.
But hobbyists generally don’t often want the hassle of a nontrivial userbase.
As for binaries ... you just set a reasonable limit for msg size,
and forbid .part's. A detector for ascii-encoded bin will work too.
Yes, it’s a few lines of config in my filter.
As such, a modern BBS - prob with one or two fail-over servers -
would be the middle path. Structure everything like usenet,
just NOT usenet. Could even pipe in actual usenet articles,
for as long as they last.
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's sort of a
prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU and beyond. As
said, such a system needs to be located in a who-knows/cares-country
where it's hard to get at legally.
Sites that can’t be reached legally get blocked (at least when they’re big enough to matter). Not completely insurmountable (VPNs, proxies,
etc) but certainly a barrier to widespread adoption.
An advantage of a distributed system (Usenet, ActivityPub, etc) is that
each node can deal with its prevailing legal environment without much impacting the rest of the network. UK Usenet hosts were taking down CSAM since the 1990s, with zero impact on anyone else (no doubt the UK wasn’t the only jurisidiction doing it but I had no visibility of that).
A closely related disadvantage is that there’s not always much you can
do about certain kinds of misbehavior originating on other nodes short
of blocking entire nodes, if their operators aren’t cooperative. On
Usenet, Google was the worst recent offender: huge amounts of spam, and operators who didn’t care at all, but also huge numbers of legitimate
users who would be lost if you blocked the whole site.
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 1/23/25 4:05 PM, D wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/01/2025 15:44, D wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 1/22/25 3:00 PM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 22.01.2025 00:19 Uhr 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, I can see - by posting with my normal ISP and
then reading from NeoDome (but can't POST from Neo).
Maybe they restrict posting to avoid abuse.
Ask the admin of it.
Yep, they don't allow posting anymore - too
many spammers. None of the other freebies
seem to work at all any more or want you
to "register". Some ISPs block port 119.
This is not good.
My provider finally did fix it. Alas they
may only have one old guy who knows how
the NNTP server works. Don't think they
even offer it to newbies anymore.
By modern standards, usenet is kinda small
data-wise - and mostly just text. Would not
take a super-box. Maybe some people are
worried about liability - lots of weird
stuff here ? Perhaps someone in a kinda
off-the-map country can start a new free
service. (hmmm ... Belize maybe?)
I think it should be entirely feasible, and fairly cheap, to start
your own usenet provider on a few hetzner VM:s. The only thing
you'd need is a few peers, inn (or equivalent) and off you go.
I've toyed with the idea myself from time to time, but so far
haven't had the time to do something about it since other projects
have priority.
Yep.
I have set up a few INN servers. The problem back in the day was the
binary newsgroups - people uploading pirate images of massive size..
Isn't it very easy to just not offer the binary crap? There are way
better methods today to get your hands on binaries than trawling
through newsgroups downloading and integrating small compressed files.
It does take a bit of looking after. If you let everyone access it
before you know it there is a huge amount of illegal shit being
transferred on legitimate newsgroups, ratware is smashing against
every door it can find and people are trying to DOS it just because
someone called them out for being a doofus.
It is very interesting! How long before someone would try and destroy
your publicly available free news server? ;)
On the other hand, one could always hope that the nr of people who
even know what it is is so small that it could live happily unmoderated! >>>
On the other hand, if spam increases too much or the complaints keep
piling up, maybe the peers will drop you?
But technically its not hard to do for a small community of users
A hobby project for you? =)
There must be something in-between usenet and 'X' - http
rather than p119. Simple interface but hooks for better
alternative reader apps.
Remember BBS's ? The trick was that there was usually only
Yes! Those were the days!
ONE server holding all the messages. Depending, this is not
necessarily terrible. The spreads-it-around nature of usenet
is interesting, good redundancy, but the number of feed servers
seems to be decreasing, fewer and fewer sources for the articles.
As for binaries ... you just set a reasonable limit for msg size,
and forbid .part's. A detector for ascii-encoded bin will work too.
I imagine that existing, hobby usenet providers would be happy share
their spam tools and lists which I am sure gets rid of a lot of stuff.
As such, a modern BBS - prob with one or two fail-over servers -
would be the middle path. Structure everything like usenet,
just NOT usenet. Could even pipe in actual usenet articles,
for as long as they last.
If you want to go global you can always join Fidonet. Still around, kind
of like a less known usenet. I do think it is more of a hassle to become
a Fidonet member though. It seems to me that peering with a usenet
provider is easier to setup than fidonet which is a bit more
administrative and cumbersome.
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's
sort of a prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU
and beyond. As said, such a system needs to be located in
a who-knows/cares-country where it's hard to get at legally.
In europe I would not worry about it at all.
First of all, no one in
power even knows what usenet is, so no one will ever look. Second, most
of the nasty stuff can easily be blocked or filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the posters and not yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_ your responsibility is to remove the content
from your servers, if asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's sort of >>>>> a prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU and beyond. As >>>>> said, such a system needs to be located in a
who-knows/cares-country where it's hard to get at legally.
In europe I would not worry about it at all.
Europe is, sadly, one place where if you are in the wrong locality, you
*very much* have to worry about it.
In which locality in europe would you have to worry about posts on usenet?
There are several for which I've seen recent articles on HN about their pushing the "big social platforms" [1] for ever varing amounts of
censorship (notably, censoring "things they don't like"). I only tangentially read much of the linked articles (being in the US myself
it did not impact me in any way) and did not bother to even commit to
any short term memory the specific localities. But it is not a far
reach to go from "thou shal censor what I say to censor" to
"thou shal do said censoring under penalty X in my new statute Y" (esp.
if "big social platform" fail to bend over and take it).
The fact that Usenet is all but unknown today, save for us few
die-hards, provides a large form of "protection" (that which is unknown
to the enforcers goes unpunished). At the same time, should a locality
have a "site owner responsible for content X" statute, obscurity is not
a blanket protection, it just reduces the risk of being noticed. But,
if noticed, then the punishment would show up.
[1] the meta/facebook's and twitter/x's and the like
On 2025-01-24, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I play and online MPORPG - apperenly someone who got thrown off it for
breaking the rules flooded it with gigabits per second to trash it.
I mean its only a game FFS!
This is very sad. I bet if they met many beautiful women, they would stop
wasting time on trying to take down gaming servers. ;)
I doubt it. The result would probably be like in that _Big Bang Theory_ episode where Howard and Raj are in a bar, and Howard goes up to a
beautiful woman, puts on a fake Indian accent, and says, "I'm Sanjay
Wolowitz from Bombay."
If you want to go global you can always join Fidonet. Still around, kind of >> like a less known usenet. I do think it is more of a hassle to become a
Fidonet member though. It seems to me that peering with a usenet provider
is easier to setup than fidonet which is a bit more administrative and
cumbersome.
Ahh - I remember FIDOnet ! It's kinda like usenet ... keeps
a local copy and then forwards to all peers. Haven't looked
at it for ages though. Not even sure how to get at it ...
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's
sort of a prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU
and beyond. As said, such a system needs to be located in
a who-knows/cares-country where it's hard to get at legally.
In europe I would not worry about it at all.
Huh ??? LOOK at their pogroms against Musk and Goog
and a bunch of others for "un-PC" material !!!
The Thought Police have a comfy home and real police
powers in the EU. You can be ARRESTED for wrong-thinking.
You'd think Russia took over the whole place in 1945.
It's a horrible embarrassment for the 'free world'.
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one will
ever look. Second, most of the nasty stuff can easily be blocked or
filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the posters and not
yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_ your responsibility is to
remove the content from your servers, if asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry >> about.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but
sometimes doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-
hunter looking for a promotion to expose a dreaded
case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
A closely related disadvantage is that there’s not always much you can
do about certain kinds of misbehavior originating on other nodes short
of blocking entire nodes, if their operators aren’t cooperative. On
Usenet, Google was the worst recent offender: huge amounts of spam, and
operators who didn’t care at all, but also huge numbers of legitimate
users who would be lost if you blocked the whole site.
Oh, I remember the GG spam blizzards ... give people
a chance to be total assholes and they WILL. It's not
even political - it's a 'domination'/'status' thing
kinda hardwired into many species.
As such, ANY kinda free system IS gonna get the same.
Only 'obscurity' saves you - but that also means less
or no PROFIT in providing.
No really great solutions here. Such is life.
On 1/24/25 11:24 PM, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
There are several for which I've seen recent articles on HN about their
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Again though the "liability" issue for un-PC content. It's sort of >>>>>> a prob in the USA but a much bigger prob in the EU and beyond. As >>>>>> said, such a system needs to be located in a
who-knows/cares-country where it's hard to get at legally.
In europe I would not worry about it at all.
Europe is, sadly, one place where if you are in the wrong locality, you >>>> *very much* have to worry about it.
In which locality in europe would you have to worry about posts on usenet? >>
pushing the "big social platforms" [1] for ever varing amounts of
censorship (notably, censoring "things they don't like"). I only
tangentially read much of the linked articles (being in the US myself
it did not impact me in any way) and did not bother to even commit to
any short term memory the specific localities. But it is not a far
reach to go from "thou shal censor what I say to censor" to
"thou shal do said censoring under penalty X in my new statute Y" (esp.
if "big social platform" fail to bend over and take it).
The fact that Usenet is all but unknown today, save for us few
die-hards, provides a large form of "protection" (that which is unknown
to the enforcers goes unpunished). At the same time, should a locality
have a "site owner responsible for content X" statute, obscurity is not
a blanket protection, it just reduces the risk of being noticed. But,
if noticed, then the punishment would show up.
[1] the meta/facebook's and twitter/x's and the like
Who Are The Brain Police ?
NOT hard to find 'em in the EU. You can be ARRESTED
for un-PC thinking .....
Very sad. Very embarrassing for the 'free world' concept.
Apart from a few years in the UK, europe was never about the free world. Europe has always been about socialism, high taxes, and
authoritarianism. I suspect that this is due to its history with kings
n' stuff.
The small pockets of liberty are, some parts of eastern europe (fiscal liberty), switzerland, monaco, andorra, the channel islands,
liechtenstein. I think that's about it. Oh, if you dive below the first
level of legal paragraphs you could add cyprus and malta to the list as
well.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but
sometimes doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-
hunter looking for a promotion to expose a dreaded
case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
On 1/24/25 4:33 AM, D wrote:
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look. Second, most of the nasty stuff can easily be
blocked or filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the
posters and not yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_
your responsibility is to remove the content from your servers, if
asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but sometimes
doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-hunter looking for a
promotion to expose a dreaded case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
You should wiki read 'the iron law of Oligarchy'
The greatest political power we still have is defined by how we use our credit cards. Cf Elon Musk or Bill Gates
The small pockets of liberty are, some parts of eastern europe (fiscal
liberty), switzerland, monaco, andorra, the channel islands, liechtenstein. >> I think that's about it. Oh, if you dive below the first level of legal
paragraphs you could add cyprus and malta to the list as well.
I think it is all changing. The old 19th century empire building mentality of the EU and its minions, and Russia, is not supported by rather too many people who are rather too well informed via the internet.
I think a more sane arrangement will be NATO style voluntary associations of smaller entities, into trade agreements, defence agreements, but not agreements that pass their sovereignty to a centralised anti-democratic bureaucracy.
It's the very reason why HOA's are so awful in the US. The busy-bodies (i.e., the witch-hunter's who want to control everyone's lives) are the
only ones who are attracted to the job of "HOA board member", and once
they worm their way in, then things like "your trashcan, when stored,
must be no more than 4 inches and no less than two inches from the left
edge of your garage door" (a US HOA has rules almost this ludicrous,
and they actually hire "snitches" to do nothing more than drive around
the association property all day looking for any 'rules violations' to
cite people for).
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You should wiki read 'the iron law of Oligarchy'
I think you mentioned this before.
The greatest political power we still have is defined by how we use
our credit cards. Cf Elon Musk or Bill Gates
There is an overlap between financial power and political power, but
they are
not the same.
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 1/24/25 4:33 AM, D wrote:
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look. Second, most of the nasty stuff can easily be
blocked or filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the
posters and not yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_
your responsibility is to remove the content from your servers, if
asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but sometimes
doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-hunter looking for a
promotion to expose a dreaded case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
Indeed, and the witch-hunter's are incentivised to go looking for those
to expose because that's their collateral they use to measure their
value among the other witch-hunters in their social group.
It's the very reason why HOA's are so awful in the US. The busy-bodies (i.e., the witch-hunter's who want to control everyone's lives) are the
only ones who are attracted to the job of "HOA board member", and once
they worm their way in, then things like "your trashcan, when stored,
must be no more than 4 inches and no less than two inches from the left
edge of your garage door" (a US HOA has rules almost this ludicrous,
and they actually hire "snitches" to do nothing more than drive around
the association property all day looking for any 'rules violations' to
cite people for).
On 25/01/2025 17:38, D wrote:
Ultimately they are interchangeable. The man with deep pockets buys the politicians.
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You should wiki read 'the iron law of Oligarchy'
I think you mentioned this before.
The greatest political power we still have is defined by how we use our
credit cards. Cf Elon Musk or Bill Gates
There is an overlap between financial power and political power, but they
are
not the same.
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite horrible,
and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltWVmsbJxc DEI must DIE.
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 1/24/25 4:33 AM, D wrote:
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look. Second, most of the nasty stuff can easily be
blocked or filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the
posters and not yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_
your responsibility is to remove the content from your servers, if
asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but sometimes
doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-hunter looking for a
promotion to expose a dreaded case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
Indeed, and the witch-hunter's are incentivised to go looking for those
to expose because that's their collateral they use to measure their
value among the other witch-hunters in their social group.
It's the very reason why HOA's are so awful in the US. The busy-bodies
(i.e., the witch-hunter's who want to control everyone's lives) are the
only ones who are attracted to the job of "HOA board member", and once
they worm their way in, then things like "your trashcan, when stored,
must be no more than 4 inches and no less than two inches from the left
edge of your garage door" (a US HOA has rules almost this ludicrous,
and they actually hire "snitches" to do nothing more than drive around
the association property all day looking for any 'rules violations' to
cite people for).
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite horrible,
and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltWVmsbJxc DEI must DIE.
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 1/24/25 4:33 AM, D wrote:
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look. Second, most of the nasty stuff can easily be
blocked or filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the
posters and not yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_
your responsibility is to remove the content from your servers, if
asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but sometimes
doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-hunter looking for a
promotion to expose a dreaded case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
Indeed, and the witch-hunter's are incentivised to go looking for those
to expose because that's their collateral they use to measure their
value among the other witch-hunters in their social group.
It's the very reason why HOA's are so awful in the US. The busy-bodies
(i.e., the witch-hunter's who want to control everyone's lives) are the
only ones who are attracted to the job of "HOA board member", and once
they worm their way in, then things like "your trashcan, when stored,
must be no more than 4 inches and no less than two inches from the left
edge of your garage door" (a US HOA has rules almost this ludicrous,
and they actually hire "snitches" to do nothing more than drive around
the association property all day looking for any 'rules violations' to
cite people for).
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite horrible, and
at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltWVmsbJxc DEI must DIE.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 1/24/25 4:33 AM, D wrote:
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look. Second, most of the nasty stuff can easily be
blocked or filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the
posters and not yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_
your responsibility is to remove the content from your servers, if
asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but sometimes
doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-hunter looking for a
promotion to expose a dreaded case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
Indeed, and the witch-hunter's are incentivised to go looking for those
to expose because that's their collateral they use to measure their
value among the other witch-hunters in their social group.
It's the very reason why HOA's are so awful in the US. The busy-bodies
(i.e., the witch-hunter's who want to control everyone's lives) are the
only ones who are attracted to the job of "HOA board member", and once
they worm their way in, then things like "your trashcan, when stored,
must be no more than 4 inches and no less than two inches from the left
edge of your garage door" (a US HOA has rules almost this ludicrous,
and they actually hire "snitches" to do nothing more than drive around
the association property all day looking for any 'rules violations' to
cite people for).
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite horrible, and
at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltWVmsbJxc DEI must DIE.
Home Owners Association
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeowner_association)
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 1/24/25 4:33 AM, D wrote:
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look. Second, most of the nasty stuff can easily be
blocked or filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the
posters and not yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_
your responsibility is to remove the content from your servers, if
asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but sometimes
doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-hunter looking for a
promotion to expose a dreaded case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
Indeed, and the witch-hunter's are incentivised to go looking for those
to expose because that's their collateral they use to measure their
value among the other witch-hunters in their social group.
It's the very reason why HOA's are so awful in the US. The busy-bodies
(i.e., the witch-hunter's who want to control everyone's lives) are the
only ones who are attracted to the job of "HOA board member", and once
they worm their way in, then things like "your trashcan, when stored,
must be no more than 4 inches and no less than two inches from the left
edge of your garage door" (a US HOA has rules almost this ludicrous,
and they actually hire "snitches" to do nothing more than drive around
the association property all day looking for any 'rules violations' to
cite people for).
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite horrible,
and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltWVmsbJxc DEI must DIE.
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025 23:31:55 +0100, D wrote:
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite horrible,
and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
Homeowners Association. They're usually implemented in subdivisions or
gated communities. They are mini-KGBs with block wardens to enforce vital regulations on the length of grass, color of trim, acceptable hours for outdoor barbecues, number of vehicles, and so forth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltWVmsbJxc DEI must DIE.
They have a valid point. There were a lot of sewers, knitters, and embroiderers in my family. Each new arrival was gifted with a handmade
doll sort of like a golliwog. I don't think it impugns on my sexual
identity to say that when I was 2 or so I loved my little 'Nigger Doll'. Yeah, that was the official title for the design.
In much later years Karine Jean-Pierre's curly black locks and head
stuffed with cotton batting reminded me of that childhood toy.
On 1/25/25 5:31 PM, D wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 1/24/25 4:33 AM, D wrote:
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look. Second, most of the nasty stuff can easily be
blocked or filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the
posters and not yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_
your responsibility is to remove the content from your servers, if
asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but sometimes
doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-hunter looking for a
promotion to expose a dreaded case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
Indeed, and the witch-hunter's are incentivised to go looking for those
to expose because that's their collateral they use to measure their
value among the other witch-hunters in their social group.
It's the very reason why HOA's are so awful in the US. The busy-bodies
(i.e., the witch-hunter's who want to control everyone's lives) are the
only ones who are attracted to the job of "HOA board member", and once
they worm their way in, then things like "your trashcan, when stored,
must be no more than 4 inches and no less than two inches from the left
edge of your garage door" (a US HOA has rules almost this ludicrous,
and they actually hire "snitches" to do nothing more than drive around
the association property all day looking for any 'rules violations' to
cite people for).
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite horrible, and
at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltWVmsbJxc DEI must DIE.
HOAs are what the wannabe NAZIs join so they can
sub-micro-manage and persecute their neighbors
all legal like ....
Never EVER buy a home in the USA somewhere there's
a HOA. You're better off in some converted cow barn
five miles out of town.
HOAs should be illegal ... but supplication to them
is often in small-print on the purchase/lease papers.
On 25/01/2025 22:31, D wrote:
Karen factories. Home Owners Associations.
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 1/24/25 4:33 AM, D wrote:
First of all, no one in power even knows what usenet is, so no one
will ever look. Second, most of the nasty stuff can easily be
blocked or filtered. Third, the responsibility of the post is the
posters and not yours (at least in my jurisdiction). At _worst_
your responsibility is to remove the content from your servers, if
asked. Otherwise, nothing to worry about.
"Survival through obscurity" sometimes works - but sometimes
doesn't. Just takes ONE little witch-hunter looking for a
promotion to expose a dreaded case of Unregulated Thoughts .......
Indeed, and the witch-hunter's are incentivised to go looking for those
to expose because that's their collateral they use to measure their
value among the other witch-hunters in their social group.
It's the very reason why HOA's are so awful in the US. The busy-bodies >>> (i.e., the witch-hunter's who want to control everyone's lives) are the
only ones who are attracted to the job of "HOA board member", and once
they worm their way in, then things like "your trashcan, when stored,
must be no more than 4 inches and no less than two inches from the left
edge of your garage door" (a US HOA has rules almost this ludicrous,
and they actually hire "snitches" to do nothing more than drive around
the association property all day looking for any 'rules violations' to
cite people for).
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite horrible, and
at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltWVmsbJxc DEI must DIE.
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/01/2025 22:31, D wrote:
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite
horrible, and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
Karen factories. Home Owners Associations.
Beautiful description. I will shamelessly steal it!
On 2025-01-26, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/01/2025 22:31, D wrote:
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite
horrible, and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
Karen factories. Home Owners Associations.
Beautiful description. I will shamelessly steal it!
That is a nice one.
Around here, they're known as "strata councils".
On 2025-01-26, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/01/2025 22:31, D wrote:
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite
horrible, and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
Karen factories. Home Owners Associations.
Beautiful description. I will shamelessly steal it!
That is a nice one.
Around here, they're known as "strata councils".
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-01-26, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/01/2025 22:31, D wrote:
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite
horrible, and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
Karen factories. Home Owners Associations.
Beautiful description. I will shamelessly steal it!
That is a nice one.
Around here, they're known as "strata councils".
I've always referred to them as "Gestapos" myself, but "Karen
Factories" fits better with more modern usage and understanding.
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-01-26, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/01/2025 22:31, D wrote:
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quite
horrible, and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes.
Karen factories. Home Owners Associations.
Beautiful description. I will shamelessly steal it!
That is a nice one.
Around here, they're known as "strata councils".
I've always referred to them as "Gestapos" myself, but "Karen
Factories" fits better with more modern usage and understanding.
See, this is what fills me with hope for the US! Karen Factories
should be loathed and hated instinctively!
In sweden, most people like the concept. Yuck! =(
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-01-26, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/01/2025 22:31, D wrote:
What's a HOA? On this theme, I found this video to be quiteKaren factories. Home Owners Associations.
horrible, and at the same time, inspiring. It is about 5 minutes. >>>>>>
Beautiful description. I will shamelessly steal it!
That is a nice one.
Around here, they're known as "strata councils".
I've always referred to them as "Gestapos" myself, but "Karen
Factories" fits better with more modern usage and understanding.
See, this is what fills me with hope for the US! Karen Factories
should be loathed and hated instinctively!
Indeed, yes.
In sweden, most people like the concept. Yuck! =(
You'll find that the 'Karens' who live in neigborhoods who are covered
by Karen Factories also tend to like Karen Factories.
You'll also find a fair number of folks who have not had to endure the trouble that a Karen Factory will create that think they also like the concept. Of course, they are thinking of it as "my neighbor won't be
able to start a lard rendering plant or glue factory next door". Once
they buy in, and get trapped, they learn that reality is that the
Karens are measuring the length of their grass blades with a ruler and
fining them $862.00 for the blades being 0.020 inch longer than the
"approved length".
Logically I can only conclude that all of sweden is a Karen Factory. ;)
On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Apparently Karen is a DANISH name...
On 28/01/2025 09:21, D wrote:
Logically I can only conclude that all of sweden is a Karen Factory. ;)
No, that would be Denmark
You do have a point! ;)
On 28/01/2025 09:21, D wrote:
Logically I can only conclude that all of sweden is a Karen Factory. ;)
No, that would be Denmark
On 28/01/2025 15:23, D wrote:
Apparently Karen is a DANISH name...
On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/01/2025 09:21, D wrote:
Logically I can only conclude that all of sweden is a Karen Factory. ;) >>>>
No, that would be Denmark
You do have a point! ;)
"Karen is a female name of Danish origin. It originated with the Danes and the Greeks and is a diminutive of the more formal Katherine. Karen means "pure," which points to the wonderful innocence of childhood and the loving, pure nature baby embodies."
Yah well, no, fine!
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