• "DeepSeek" - China AI App Shakes Up Tech Markets

    From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 27 11:46:36 2025
    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cjr85l2e4l4t

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14329549/ai-software-tech-google-openai-deepseek-china-startup.html

    Chinese start-up DeepSeek sent big tech companies into a
    spiral with the release of its Artificial Intelligence chatbot.

    DeepSeek's AI Assistant is said to perform on-par with
    ChatGPT at a fraction of the price.

    After its release in January 2025, it quickly became the
    most-downloaded free app on the Apple Store.

    The US stock market lost $1 trillion overnight as investors
    lost confidence in Western dominance in the AI sector.

    . . .

    Chinese developers are very CLEVER, no more
    dismissing them. Apparently this system/interface
    was built WAY cheaper than possible in the West.

    That our Big AI interests could be so easily
    undercut has punished the stock markets -
    especially NASDAQ - today.

    It remains to be seen if DeepSeek as "as good" as
    Chat and friends - but even if it's just "good
    enough" it represents a PROBLEM.

    Somebody DID try feeding it some questions about
    China politics ... and it hedged its answers :-)

    --
    033-33

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Mon Jan 27 20:53:26 2025
    On Mon, 27 Jan 2025 11:46:36 -0500, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    It remains to be seen if DeepSeek as "as good" as Chat and friends -
    but even if it's just "good enough" it represents a PROBLEM.

    Somebody DID try feeding it some questions about China politics ...
    and it hedged its answers

    https://www.theregister.com/2025/01/26/deepseek_r1_ai_cot

    That article goes into more detail. Biden stopped the export of H800s to
    China but apparently not before the Chinese got their hands on enough. Reportedly the troops at Meta are engaged in a Chinese fire drill.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Mon Jan 27 22:23:06 2025
    On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cjr85l2e4l4t

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14329549/ai-software-tech-google-openai-deepseek-china-startup.html

    Chinese start-up DeepSeek sent big tech companies into a
    spiral with the release of its Artificial Intelligence chatbot.

    DeepSeek's AI Assistant is said to perform on-par with
    ChatGPT at a fraction of the price.

    After its release in January 2025, it quickly became the
    most-downloaded free app on the Apple Store.

    The US stock market lost $1 trillion overnight as investors
    lost confidence in Western dominance in the AI sector.

    . . .

    Chinese developers are very CLEVER, no more
    dismissing them. Apparently this system/interface
    was built WAY cheaper than possible in the West.

    That our Big AI interests could be so easily
    undercut has punished the stock markets -
    especially NASDAQ - today.

    It remains to be seen if DeepSeek as "as good" as
    Chat and friends - but even if it's just "good
    enough" it represents a PROBLEM.

    Somebody DID try feeding it some questions about
    China politics ... and it hedged its answers :-)

    Is it open source? Has anyone compared it fairly? Did china steal the
    teach and this got a cost advantage? Is it even true?

    So many questions!

    Regardless, readers of this newsgroup will not surprised when the AI
    bubble bursts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 27 18:24:33 2025
    On 1/27/25 4:23 PM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cjr85l2e4l4t

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14329549/ai-software-tech-google-openai-deepseek-china-startup.html


    Chinese start-up DeepSeek sent big tech companies into a
    spiral with the release of its Artificial Intelligence chatbot.

    DeepSeek's AI Assistant is said to perform on-par with
    ChatGPT at a fraction of the price.

    After its release in January 2025, it quickly became the
    most-downloaded free app on the Apple Store.

    The US stock market lost $1 trillion overnight as investors
    lost confidence in Western dominance in the AI sector.

    . . .

     Chinese developers are very CLEVER, no more
     dismissing them. Apparently this system/interface
     was built WAY cheaper than possible in the West.

     That our Big AI interests could be so easily
     undercut has punished the stock markets -
     especially NASDAQ - today.

     It remains to be seen if DeepSeek as "as good" as
     Chat and friends - but even if it's just "good
     enough" it represents a PROBLEM.

     Somebody DID try feeding it some questions about
     China politics ... and it hedged its answers  :-)

    Is it open source? Has anyone compared it fairly? Did china steal the
    teach and this got a cost advantage? Is it even true?

    It is, allegedly, open source.

    So many questions!

    Seems they made it work with a lot fewer good chips
    than western developers imagined possible - which
    means some Different Thinking, different ways to
    leverage the hardware. This different thinking was
    why Japan shot to the top of the tech pyramid in
    the 80s ... brought 'perfection thru simplicity'
    to the clunky US/UK designs.

    Regardless, readers of this newsgroup will not surprised when the AI
    bubble bursts.

    "AI" investment/expectations are decidedly a "bubble"
    at this point. It's gonna go bang. Trump wants to throw
    a lot more money at it, but it may just be throwing
    it into the incinerator. The right time for big govt
    investment would be AFTER the incipent crash, AI 2.0
    so to speak.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 28 05:46:52 2025
    On Mon, 27 Jan 2025 22:23:06 +0100, D wrote:


    Is it open source? Has anyone compared it fairly? Did china steal the
    teach and this got a cost advantage? Is it even true?

    https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V3

    Trying to steal OpenAI's tech would have set them back years :)

    https://www.nextplatform.com/2025/01/27/how-did-deepseek-train-its-ai- model-on-a-lot-less-and-crippled-hardware

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jan 28 03:27:04 2025
    On 1/28/25 12:46 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Jan 2025 22:23:06 +0100, D wrote:


    Is it open source? Has anyone compared it fairly? Did china steal the
    teach and this got a cost advantage? Is it even true?

    https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V3

    Trying to steal OpenAI's tech would have set them back years :)

    https://www.nextplatform.com/2025/01/27/how-did-deepseek-train-its-ai- model-on-a-lot-less-and-crippled-hardware


    This cost NVidia 600 BILLION just yesterday.

    Expect more bleeding.

    Whomever these developers are, they've found
    "it" - a far far better way to encapsulate
    the AI paradigm. Genius.

    Reminds of Japan in the 80s - turning $1000 chips
    into $100 chips just by Thinking Differently.

    This is really a MAJOR THING. It's gonna have
    far-ranging impacts.

    Stay tuned.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jan 28 08:53:12 2025
    On 28/01/2025 05:46, rbowman wrote:
    Trying to steal OpenAI's tech would have set them back years 🙂
    Lol!

    --
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
    In practice, there is.
    -- Yogi Berra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Tue Jan 28 10:24:51 2025
    On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Is it open source? Has anyone compared it fairly? Did china steal the teach >> and this got a cost advantage? Is it even true?

    It is, allegedly, open source.

    Interesting! Then we will have the answers to a lot of questions in time. Note also how china is trying to stunt the growth of US AI companies to stop them from becoming too powerful.

    So many questions!

    Seems they made it work with a lot fewer good chips
    than western developers imagined possible - which
    means some Different Thinking, different ways to
    leverage the hardware. This different thinking was
    why Japan shot to the top of the tech pyramid in
    the 80s ... brought 'perfection thru simplicity'
    to the clunky US/UK designs.

    I guess they benefited by being late to the game, and could discard ways and methods that were choosen in the US?

    Regardless, readers of this newsgroup will not surprised when the AI bubble >> bursts.

    "AI" investment/expectations are decidedly a "bubble"
    at this point. It's gonna go bang. Trump wants to throw
    a lot more money at it, but it may just be throwing
    it into the incinerator. The right time for big govt
    investment would be AFTER the incipent crash, AI 2.0
    so to speak.

    This is the truth! The AI hype drives technologies, which after the boom, find their right uses. Image recognition, voice recognition, expert systems, genetic algorithms for medical research... all common and based on the fallout from AI hypes I'm sure. The game changer this time, or at least one of them, is the open
    sourceing of the models, which enables people like you and me to play around with them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Tue Jan 28 10:31:16 2025
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 1/28/25 12:46 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Jan 2025 22:23:06 +0100, D wrote:


    Is it open source? Has anyone compared it fairly? Did china steal the
    teach and this got a cost advantage? Is it even true?

    https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V3

    Trying to steal OpenAI's tech would have set them back years :)

    https://www.nextplatform.com/2025/01/27/how-did-deepseek-train-its-ai-
    model-on-a-lot-less-and-crippled-hardware


    This cost NVidia 600 BILLION just yesterday.

    Expect more bleeding.

    Whomever these developers are, they've found
    "it" - a far far better way to encapsulate
    the AI paradigm. Genius.

    Reminds of Japan in the 80s - turning $1000 chips
    into $100 chips just by Thinking Differently.

    This is really a MAJOR THING. It's gonna have
    far-ranging impacts.

    Well, I mean if the performance isn't better, I don't see it having that
    much of an impact other than balancing the power a bit. But, yes, if it
    means I can run something like openai at home, that would be quite cool.

    I also would love for it to be uncensored, so I would not have to jump
    through hoops to get it to tell me a negro joke.

    Stay tuned.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to John Ames on Tue Jan 28 21:40:42 2025
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, John Ames wrote:

    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 10:24:51 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I guess they benefited by being late to the game, and could discard
    ways and methods that were choosen in the US?

    More like a bunch of sleazoid grifters playing fake-it-'til-you-make-it
    with complex problems in an *extraordinarily* complex field of study
    'cause the Ponzi scheme that was their last big hype bubble has started
    to dry up are, um, maybe not very good at software engineering.

    ...Nah. Couldn't be.

    Interesting! Then we will have the answers to a lot of questions in
    time. Note also how china is trying to stunt the growth of US AI
    companies to stop them from becoming too powerful.

    Hardly "powerful" when the core product is still a glorified party
    trick, Dissociated Press on steroids, which was *never* going to do the
    kind of things OpenAI has been desperately trying to convince everyone
    it will Real Soon Now; even Winnie-the-Pooh's version is not going to magically overcome the fundamental limitations of LLMs.

    The explanation is laughably simple: they saw a way to burn a couple
    months' blood, sweat & tears and a few million bucks and, in exchange,
    they got to humiliate the US tech sector and the political faction that
    crowd has been sucking up to & absolutely *dynamite* a major investment bubble that was getting ready to pop of natural causes months or years
    ahead of schedule. Pooh is probably knocking back honeypots in Beijing
    and giggling to himself like that Muppet gremlin in "Return of the
    Jedi" right now; God knows I'd be.

    I like the humiliation thesis. But I also think it is a little but more
    refined than that. Causing US companies financial damage is very
    attractive to them, and if they can hasten the crash of the AI bubble
    along, they would be happy too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 28 21:29:31 2025
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 21:40:42 +0100, D wrote:

    I like the humiliation thesis. But I also think it is a little but more refined than that. Causing US companies financial damage is very
    attractive to them, and if they can hasten the crash of the AI bubble
    along, they would be happy too.

    The US tried to cripple them by limiting Nvidia exports. They made do with second tier GPUs.

    It's interesting how an awful communist dictatorship open sourced the
    whole thing plus a long paper on how they did it while Microsoft, Meta,
    OpenAI and the others are only interested in their bottom line.

    Mao to the contrary I think China is really a successful national
    socialist country.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Doctor@21:1/5 to commodorejohn@gmail.com on Wed Jan 29 01:15:32 2025
    In article <20250128130321.00002cc9@gmail.com>,
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 21:40:42 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I like the humiliation thesis. But I also think it is a little but
    more refined than that. Causing US companies financial damage is very
    attractive to them, and if they can hasten the crash of the AI bubble
    along, they would be happy too.

    Two great tastes that taste great together, yup.


    Warning - Deepseek found n Github!
    --
    Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
    Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ;
    Birthdate - 29 January 1969 Redhill, Surrey, England, Uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Doctor on Tue Jan 28 22:10:02 2025
    On 1/28/25 8:15 PM, The Doctor wrote:
    In article <20250128130321.00002cc9@gmail.com>,
    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 21:40:42 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I like the humiliation thesis. But I also think it is a little but
    more refined than that. Causing US companies financial damage is very
    attractive to them, and if they can hasten the crash of the AI bubble
    along, they would be happy too.

    Two great tastes that taste great together, yup.


    Warning - Deepseek found n Github!

    It will be *everywhere* inside a week or two.

    In any case, China HAS managed to do serious
    damage to the "AI Bubble". That's gonna COST
    us big-time and undermine future investor
    confidence.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Wed Jan 29 06:11:04 2025
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 22:10:02 -0500, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    In any case, China HAS managed to do serious damage to the "AI
    Bubble". That's gonna COST us big-time and undermine future investor
    confidence.

    Better now than after we bought a $500 billion Stargate to nowhere.
    Someone needs to give some serious thought to the CHIPS program too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jan 29 02:44:11 2025
    On 1/29/25 1:11 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 22:10:02 -0500, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    In any case, China HAS managed to do serious damage to the "AI
    Bubble". That's gonna COST us big-time and undermine future investor
    confidence.

    Better now than after we bought a $500 billion Stargate to nowhere.
    Someone needs to give some serious thought to the CHIPS program too.

    Yep. Use "StarGate" a little LATER. It will be
    money much more better spent.

    The "AI" universe is still in rapid evolution.
    Don't jump on any one branch TOO early.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Wed Jan 29 10:19:21 2025
    On 29/01/2025 03:10, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 1/28/25 8:15 PM, The Doctor wrote:
    In article <20250128130321.00002cc9@gmail.com>,
    John Ames  <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 21:40:42 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I like the humiliation thesis. But I also think it is a little but
    more refined than that. Causing US companies financial damage is very
    attractive to them, and if they can hasten the crash of the AI bubble
    along, they would be happy too.

    Two great tastes that taste great together, yup.


    Warning - Deepseek found n Github!

      It will be *everywhere* inside a week or two.

      In any case, China HAS managed to do serious
      damage to the "AI Bubble". That's gonna COST
      us big-time and undermine future investor
      confidence.

    There was a nice sharp drop in tech prices on the markets. I used it to increase my holding in tech funds. Fund managers dont know as much about
    AI as I do, and that's little enough.

    There are other things going on in tech besides attention grabbing AI.

    --
    The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
    diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
    into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
    what it actually is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Woozy Song@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Wed Jan 29 19:41:44 2025
    WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    . . .

      Chinese developers are very CLEVER, no more
      dismissing them. Apparently this system/interface
      was built WAY cheaper than possible in the West.

    The H800 has 80 GB of VRAM and is half the speed of the best enterprise
    GPU. It was still enough for serious AI it seems. Certainly better than
    48 GB prosumer cards.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to John Ames on Wed Jan 29 15:11:34 2025
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, John Ames wrote:

    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 21:40:42 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I like the humiliation thesis. But I also think it is a little but
    more refined than that. Causing US companies financial damage is very
    attractive to them, and if they can hasten the crash of the AI bubble
    along, they would be happy too.

    Two great tastes that taste great together, yup.

    True! And it is a dish that is best served... ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Jan 29 15:22:08 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Wed, 29 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/01/2025 03:10, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 1/28/25 8:15 PM, The Doctor wrote:
    In article <20250128130321.00002cc9@gmail.com>,
    John Ames  <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 21:40:42 +0100
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    I like the humiliation thesis. But I also think it is a little but
    more refined than that. Causing US companies financial damage is very >>>>> attractive to them, and if they can hasten the crash of the AI bubble >>>>> along, they would be happy too.

    Two great tastes that taste great together, yup.


    Warning - Deepseek found n Github!

      It will be *everywhere* inside a week or two.

      In any case, China HAS managed to do serious
      damage to the "AI Bubble". That's gonna COST
      us big-time and undermine future investor
      confidence.

    There was a nice sharp drop in tech prices on the markets. I used it to increase my holding in tech funds. Fund managers dont know as much about AI as I do, and that's little enough.

    There are other things going on in tech besides attention grabbing AI.

    What is the most interesting tech trend apart from AI?

    I have no tech in my portfolio. Since I work with tech, I tend to like
    what the masses don't. So I stay away from it. ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jan 29 15:18:18 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:

    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 21:40:42 +0100, D wrote:

    I like the humiliation thesis. But I also think it is a little but more
    refined than that. Causing US companies financial damage is very
    attractive to them, and if they can hasten the crash of the AI bubble
    along, they would be happy too.

    The US tried to cripple them by limiting Nvidia exports. They made do with second tier GPUs.

    It's interesting how an awful communist dictatorship open sourced the
    whole thing plus a long paper on how they did it while Microsoft, Meta, OpenAI and the others are only interested in their bottom line.

    Mao to the contrary I think China is really a successful national
    socialist country.


    I'm not so sure. Plenty of stuff is hidden there and never reaches our
    eyes and ears.

    What follows is an article from the swedish mainstream press about how
    things in china might be far worse than we know. Add their demographical situation on top of that, and it does not look so good for them.

    ++++

    svd.se
    China is trying to protect its population – with heavy subsidies
    Johan Carlström
    11–15 minutes
    China's rescue plan could be a disaster – for Europe
    Illustration: Alexander Rauscher
    Illustration: Alexander Rauscher Photo: TT

    The Chinese regime is trying to protect its population from a crisis
    economy, with the help of heavy subsidies. But what happens in Europe if
    we continue to be flooded with cheap goods from the East.

    "2024 has been the worst year in the more than twenty years that I have
    been in this business."

    Hao, owner of a printing and advertising company in the Chinese capital Beijing, told the Financial Times last week. The man did not want to give
    his full name.

    China's economy has been struggling with headwinds recently. According to official statistics, the economy grew by 5 percent last year. But not
    everyone believes the figures. One of them is Tim Rühlig, a China expert
    and analyst at the European Union Institute for Security Studies, the EU's foreign and security policy think tank. He describes an economy in deep
    crisis.

    Rühlig has visited the country for two decades, most recently a few weeks
    ago. During the visit, he spoke to several people with connections to the regime. The conclusion is that politicians have not been this worried
    about the economy in twenty years.
    China expert Tim Rühlig works at the European Union Institute for Security Studies, the EU's foreign and security policy think tank.
    China expert Tim Rühlig works at the European Union Institute for Security Studies, the EU's foreign and security policy think tank. Photo: Andrea
    Vinson

    “China is in an extremely difficult situation. The country is in deep
    shock, optimism is completely gone and many Chinese people do not see the future as bright,” says Tim Rühlig.

    According to official statistics, unemployment has remained essentially
    flat in the country's largest cities in recent years, at around five
    percent. But Rühlig paints a different picture. According to him, there
    are mass layoffs and state-owned companies have cut employee salaries by
    up to 40 percent.

    At the same time, youth unemployment is high. At its peak, more than one
    in five young Chinese between the ages of 16 and 24 was unemployed.
    According to the Financial Times, the country has seen an increase in work-related stress, protests, suicides, crime and random violence in
    various places.

    - In the past, people who lost their jobs found new jobs. But that is no
    longer the case, says Tim Rühlig.

    Chinese prices are falling

    Unemployment has left its mark on inflation. In recent years, consumer
    prices have barely risen at all.

    At the same time, Chinese producer prices have fallen for three years in a
    row. The producer price is the price that companies charge when they sell
    their products to other companies. Last year, they fell by more than 2
    percent. This is unusual. Normally they tend to rise.

    Rühlig explains the development by saying that politicians have actively decided to produce more goods than the country actually needs. This is
    done through government subsidies that, according to Rühlig, are nine
    times larger than the corresponding subsidies in Europe.
    Photo: Eugene Hoshiko/AP

    The idea is that the support will keep goods production going and thus
    prevent unemployment from rising even further. The subsidies have also
    helped China, but have made it more difficult for foreign companies, such
    as Swedish ones, to compete with Chinese companies.

    – Chinese companies are flooding the world market with cheap goods that
    are sometimes sold at a lower price than it costs to produce them. Not the
    US, but India, Latin America and Europe have all seen a massive increase
    in exports from China recently, says Rühlig.

    China continues to win

    In the short term, China's subsidy-related overproduction may benefit
    European consumers because it means cheap goods and low inflation. But
    Chinese policies can also create problems.

    – Consumers may like low prices, but if it also means they lose their
    jobs, they probably won’t like it as much. It’s not discussed much, but it could really be a disaster for Europe if it were to happen, says Tim
    Rühlig.

    In recent years, both the US and Europe have imposed tariffs on Chinese
    goods to protect their own companies and jobs.

    But according to SEB’s Asia economist Eugenia Victorino, China has
    continued to gain ground in the global export market. To compensate for
    lower exports to the US, the country has instead focused on other markets, including Europe.

    Eugenia Victorino works as an economist and Asia strategist at SEB in
    Singapore Photo: SEB

    – Despite the tariffs, China’s trade surplus (exports minus imports; editor’s note) has more than doubled in the last seven years: from $400 billion to $1,000 billion, says Victorino.

    The reason is not only increased exports but also an active policy to get
    more foreign companies to move production to China.

    Victorino recently visited the country and warns of the consequences if US President Donald Trump raises trade tariffs on Chinese goods. Europe then
    risks being flooded with even more goods from

    from China that would otherwise have been shipped to the other side of the Atlantic.

    – If and when Trump raises tariffs, China will probably pursue an even
    more aggressive export policy towards Europe and other parts of the world.

    At the same time, the Chinese regime continues to do what it can to
    support the economy. Among other things, they have lowered the key
    interest rate and given discounts to households that have replaced old appliances with new ones. This year, even more interest rate cuts are
    expected.

    China's trade surplus has more than doubled in the past seven years.
    Photo: AP

    Tim Rühlig has a negative view of China's future. The country's public
    debt has increased sharply in recent years. He believes that subsidies
    have led to China's loans being larger than what is shown in public
    statistics and that perhaps even the regime does not know how big the debt
    is.

    According to him, however, the country's government is quite good at
    resolving crises. The main scenario is that it succeeds this time too. But Rühlig does not rule out a significantly worse scenario: that the economy crashes.

    Tough on – but at a slower pace

    According to Rühlig, a crash could have major consequences for the world economy, including Sweden. China is the world's second-largest economy and importer of goods, and many foreign companies operate in the country.

    The most likely outcome, however, is that the subsidies will cause the
    economy to continue to toughen up, but at a slower pace than we are used
    to.

    - In a way, the politicians can't afford it, but I still think they will continue to subsidize their companies, says Rühlig.

    In January, many Chinese celebrate New Year. Relatives reunite in their hometowns and bring gifts and red envelopes filled with money. But not
    Hao. The income from his company almost halved last year. Profits fell
    even further.

    "At my age, going back means giving red envelopes to the younger
    generation, and I simply don't have the money to do that," he told the Financial Times.
    How the economy in China and Sweden fared China Sweden
    GDP growth 5.0% 0.6%
    Inflation 0.2% 2.8%
    Unemployment 5.1% 8.4%
    Public debt/GDP 84% 34%
    Note: Swedish figures are Nordea's latest forecast. China's figures are a combination of outcome and forecast
    Source: Nordea, IMF

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to John Ames on Wed Jan 29 19:30:50 2025
    On Wed, 29 Jan 2025, John Ames wrote:

    On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 22:10:02 -0500
    "WokieSux282@ud0s4.net" <WokieSux283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    In any case, China HAS managed to do serious damage to the "AI
    Bubble". That's gonna COST us big-time and undermine future investor
    confidence.

    The bubble was due to burst anyway. "Generative AI" is a cocktail of
    snake oil and party tricks, pumped up by vulture capitalists selling a
    dream to corporate ghouls of being able to fire everyone who actually
    makes their business function and replace them with ChatGPT - but LLMs
    are never going to do what Sam Altman flagrantly fibs about them doing,
    and the more they push it as Good For What Ails Ya, the more obvious
    its limitations become (anybody want to try my new wood-glue-and-
    sawdust pizza? It's the talk of the town!)

    This is the truth! The only way to make LLMs perform any job with quality
    and reliability is to hard code rules and off shore to africa job
    checkers.

    Then, what you have is a statistical parrot coupled with yesterdays expert systems.

    I do however give them a passing grade when it comes to generate
    government mandated bullsh*t documentation for businesses that no one ever reads. They excel at that! I've used it to generate all kinds of b.s. on
    behalf of clients, with the clear explanation that they must read it and
    make changes.

    Needless to say, no one ever cared, got the green check mark in the
    process spreadsheet and everyone moved along happily. I think the auditor
    who has to read that b.s. might jump out of a window. On the other hand,
    he choose his own profession. ;)

    We were already seeing the seismic rumblings of an impending bust last
    fall, when Goldman-Sachs put out a report asking "...but wait, what if
    all this money we're burning on AI *doesn't* actually pay off in the
    end?" (And just stop to consider: when the people who were just fine
    with *subprime mortgage bundling* think an investment might be too
    stupid and risky...!) The longer this farce plays out before the
    collapse, the worse the damage will be; far better to put a stake
    through its heart *now.* If anything, we should be thanking them for
    ripping the bandaid off, nevermind that they did it to mess with us.

    This is the truth! Based on my dividends, a small setback would be good to release some nervous energy from the markets. Much preferable to havint
    doped markets for 2-3 years, and then a huge 30%-40% crash.

    (I'd highly encourage anyone trying to wrap their head around this
    whole circus to check out Ed Zitron - https://www.wheresyoured.at/ - who
    has done a ton of good coverage on this over the last couple years.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 30 09:23:40 2025
    On 29/01/2025 14:22, D wrote:


    On Wed, 29 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



    There was a nice sharp drop in tech prices on the markets. I used it
    to increase my holding in tech funds. Fund managers dont know as much
    about AI as I do, and that's little enough.

    There are other things going on in tech besides attention grabbing AI.

    What is the most interesting tech trend apart from AI?

    I have no tech in my portfolio. Since I work with tech, I tend to like
    what the masses don't. So I stay away from it. ;)
    Mr D. I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    Plus a few speculative gambles.

    The fund I bought into is global technology accumulation, BUT they also
    will hedge into cash in falling markets and buy long to amplify market movements.

    No financial adviser would consider them safe, but they have really
    delivered consistent returns. It just so happens that at the height of
    the pandemic tech got a huge boost, and although it sagged later, its
    all very fashionable with the markets, whereas energy has it seemed
    almost peaked out.

    The trick with investing is to follow the herd. You may thereby only see arseholes, but who cares if you can make 10% ROI?


    --
    Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
    name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
    or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
    logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
    the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
    face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

    Ayn Rand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 30 09:17:03 2025
    On 29/01/2025 14:18, D wrote:

    "At my age, going back means giving red envelopes to the younger
    generation, and I simply don't have the money to do that," he told the Financial Times.
    How the economy in China and Sweden fared China Sweden
    GDP growth 5.0% 0.6%
    Inflation 0.2% 2.8%
    Unemployment 5.1% 8.4%
    Public debt/GDP 84% 34%
    Note: Swedish figures are Nordea's latest forecast. China's figures are
    a combination of outcome and forecast
    Source: Nordea, IMF


    The problem is the rise of fairly dictatorial governments everywhere who
    think that:-

    - economists actually understand and can accurately model, economies.
    - economic policy from a centralised authority can make *wealth* appear
    by magic.

    Any fool can create *jobs* by taxing wealth producers and redistributing
    it via make-work public sector jobs.

    But to create *wealth* requires that people can make a living out of
    adding value and selling the product.

    But over regulation strangles this. I would never start a company in
    this country or the UK again, now. One smile at a female employee would
    be 'micro aggression' and if a male employee turned up in a frock I
    wouldn't be able to sack him for being stupid.

    It's all big corporates who can afford the overhead of managing this
    nonsense. Startups cant afford to.

    I think people know this and that is why more conservative political
    forces are gaining ground.

    Postmodern Marxism has jumped the shark.
    --
    “Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
    other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    - John K Galbraith

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 10:44:41 2025
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/01/2025 14:18, D wrote:

    "At my age, going back means giving red envelopes to the younger
    generation, and I simply don't have the money to do that," he told the
    Financial Times.
    How the economy in China and Sweden fared China Sweden
    GDP growth 5.0% 0.6%
    Inflation 0.2% 2.8%
    Unemployment 5.1% 8.4%
    Public debt/GDP 84% 34%
    Note: Swedish figures are Nordea's latest forecast. China's figures are a
    combination of outcome and forecast
    Source: Nordea, IMF


    The problem is the rise of fairly dictatorial governments everywhere who think that:-

    - economists actually understand and can accurately model, economies.

    Haha... good luck with that, apart from the most mega-macro trends. On a
    day to day basis, or even year to year it is very difficult. The economist
    who succeeds would become a billionaire quickly.

    - economic policy from a centralised authority can make *wealth* appear by magic.

    This is why most, if not all, dictatorships quickly turn into banana
    republics. Innovation and companies die quickly, and the leaders ego
    expands to morbid dimensions which makes him unable to take in any
    information that he does nto want to hear.

    His employees also live in constant fear of him, so they will only tell
    him what he wants to hear, thus speeding up the decline.

    Celines law: Real communication can only happen between equals. (The Illuminatus trilogy).

    Any fool can create *jobs* by taxing wealth producers and redistributing it via make-work public sector jobs.

    But to create *wealth* requires that people can make a living out of adding value and selling the product.

    This is the truth!

    But over regulation strangles this. I would never start a company in this country or the UK again, now. One smile at a female employee would be 'micro aggression' and if a male employee turned up in a frock I wouldn't be able to sack him for being stupid.

    It is a sad state of affairs. For _exactly_ this reason I have no
    employees, only sub-contractors. Oh and lest you should think otherwise,
    they are all good, wonderful boys, and very smart and driven. I've offered
    them employment, but being smart, driven and capable of math, they quickly concluded that employment is a losing strategy for them. In fact, anyone actively seeking employment from me, would be a huge warning signal!

    I once had a beautiful woman from Vietnam in my team. She enjoyed
    politically incorrect and sexual jokes very much. At first the boys were
    scared of her, but they got used to it. Sadly she met a boyfriend and
    moved on.

    I would like to spread my teachings of k8s, cloud, operations and linux to
    the UK! Do you think there is a need for it?

    It's all big corporates who can afford the overhead of managing this nonsense. Startups cant afford to.

    True! Corporates can do an amazing amount of things wrong, and still
    survive!

    I think people know this and that is why more conservative political forces are gaining ground.

    Let's hope so! If Trump continues cleaning at the same speed for the next
    4 years, maybe there is a chance of a lasting culture change in the us.

    Postmodern Marxism has jumped the shark.

    Or did the shark eat postmodern marxism?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 10:48:37 2025
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 29/01/2025 14:22, D wrote:


    On Wed, 29 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



    There was a nice sharp drop in tech prices on the markets. I used it to
    increase my holding in tech funds. Fund managers dont know as much about >>> AI as I do, and that's little enough.

    There are other things going on in tech besides attention grabbing AI.

    What is the most interesting tech trend apart from AI?

    I have no tech in my portfolio. Since I work with tech, I tend to like what >> the masses don't. So I stay away from it. ;)
    Mr D. I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*, that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    But past performance is not guarantee of future performance? ;) Jokes
    aside, I think finding a good fund manager is one way of evaluating funds, along with other markers and data points of course.

    Plus a few speculative gambles.

    I had a few small time successful mini-gambles on turn around situations,
    and one major success. Also, naturally, many negative outcomes, but the successes, so far, outnumber the failures with quite a nice factor.

    The fund I bought into is global technology accumulation, BUT they also will hedge into cash in falling markets and buy long to amplify market movements.

    No financial adviser would consider them safe, but they have really delivered consistent returns. It just so happens that at the height of the pandemic tech got a huge boost, and although it sagged later, its all very fashionable with the markets, whereas energy has it seemed almost peaked out.

    My most successful fund ever is a swedish real estate investment fund. For
    at least 2 decades they have delivered outstanding returns. I don't
    advertise, make no grand pronouncements, are owned by a boring insurance company/bank that it not know for their investment funds, and yet, year
    after year, they have done well.

    The trick with investing is to follow the herd. You may thereby only see arseholes, but who cares if you can make 10% ROI?

    Either invest ahead of the hert (difficult) or after the herd at bargain
    prices (much easier in my experience).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lars Poulsen@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 13:44:37 2025
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Mr D. I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?

    And D, what are "k8s"?
    I know about 8-Ks, but in the context, that is not what it is.
    And my sister-in-law signs her mail as "K8"(for Kate), but I don't think
    that's it, either.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Lars Poulsen on Thu Jan 30 15:23:51 2025
    On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Mr D. I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?

    I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and bonds directly.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about
    £80,000 now...

    And D, what are "k8s"?
    I know about 8-Ks, but in the context, that is not what it is.
    And my sister-in-law signs her mail as "K8"(for Kate), but I don't think that's it, either.

    I can't understanbd that either.

    --
    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
    that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

    Jonathan Swift.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 17:39:27 2025
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 29/01/2025 14:18, D wrote:

    "At my age, going back means giving red envelopes to the younger
    generation, and I simply don't have the money to do that," he told the
    Financial Times.
    How the economy in China and Sweden fared China Sweden
    GDP growth 5.0% 0.6%
    Inflation 0.2% 2.8%
    Unemployment 5.1% 8.4%
    Public debt/GDP 84% 34%
    Note: Swedish figures are Nordea's latest forecast. China's figures are
    a combination of outcome and forecast
    Source: Nordea, IMF


    The problem is the rise of fairly dictatorial governments everywhere who think that:-

    - economists actually understand and can accurately model, economies.

    Given that 90+% of "the economy" is built upon how individual members
    of that economy emotionally feel things "are" at the given moment in
    time, this point *should* be readily apparent to everyone. Of course,
    if one begins without the understanding that 90+% of "the economy" is
    based in "emotions" then maybe it is easier to believe that the
    economist's 'predictions' might have some merit.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Lars Poulsen on Thu Jan 30 18:47:32 2025
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, Lars Poulsen wrote:

    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Mr D. I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?

    And D, what are "k8s"?
    I know about 8-Ks, but in the context, that is not what it is.
    And my sister-in-law signs her mail as "K8"(for Kate), but I don't think that's it, either.


    Hello Lars! k8s stands for kubernetes. Googles cloud orchestration
    software their made open source. Somewhat good for large companies,
    useless for most smaller ones, and potentially useless for largerones as
    well. ;)

    I took over an online platform recently, and the creators built it on k8s
    with lasers on top! I got it because it cost them too much to run relative
    to what it generated.

    The first thing I did, when I carefully placed it into the hands of my technical colleague was to tell him to rip out all the k8s stuff with
    violence.

    He did, and we lowered the operating cost with 70% or so. That means it is
    now profitable. This has proven the power of the traditional way over the
    k8s way to my great satisfaction! =D

    Hmm, makes me wonder... I wonder how many more hipster out there are
    running services at a loss, so that I can take over their platforms for
    free, de-k8s them, and then run them at a profit? =D

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lars Poulsen@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 20:19:51 2025
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    ... I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*, >>> that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?

    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and bonds directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with
    most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago.

    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market, wouldn't
    you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of
    other people?

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is
    really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has
    done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably will
    get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about
    £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 30 21:00:13 2025
    On 30/01/2025 17:47, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, Lars Poulsen wrote:

    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Mr D. I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*, >>> that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?

    And D, what are "k8s"?
    I know about 8-Ks, but in the context, that is not what it is.
    And my sister-in-law signs her mail as "K8"(for Kate), but I don't think
    that's it, either.


    Hello Lars! k8s stands for kubernetes. Googles cloud orchestration
    software their made open source. Somewhat good for large companies,
    useless for most smaller ones, and potentially useless for largerones as well. ;)

    I took over an online platform recently, and the creators built it on
    k8s with lasers on top! I got it because it cost them too much to run relative to what it generated.

    The first thing I did, when I carefully placed it into the hands of my technical colleague was to tell him to rip out all the k8s stuff with violence.

    He did, and we lowered the operating cost with 70% or so. That means it
    is now profitable. This has proven the power of the traditional way over
    the k8s way to my great satisfaction! =D

    Hmm, makes me wonder... I wonder how many more hipster out there are
    running services at a loss, so that I can take over their platforms for
    free, de-k8s them, and then run them at a profit? =D

    My business partner wanted us to use Lotus Notes. I refused with extreme prejudice. The business survived
    --
    “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Lars Poulsen on Thu Jan 30 21:05:25 2025
    On 30/01/2025 20:19, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    ... I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*, >>>> that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?

    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and bonds
    directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with
    most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago.

    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market, wouldn't
    you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of
    other people?

    Most of them actually do that exact thing.
    But the results are there. Some managers consistently beat the markets.
    Some funds habitually fail to return anything.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is
    really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has
    done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably will
    get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about
    £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    I aim for 20% but am happy to accept 10..



    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
    wrong.

    H.L.Mencken

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Lars Poulsen on Thu Jan 30 22:23:31 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, Lars Poulsen wrote:

    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    ... I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*, >>>> that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?

    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and bonds
    directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with
    most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago.

    This is the truth! 99% of the people should do this. If you enjoy the
    challenge of managing your own investment by all means do so, but be aware
    that you are at a high risk of not performing as well as the index.

    I realize that that is what I risk, but I enjoy it, and my strategy has
    made the portfolio reach a respectable size, so I will hold fast to my
    strategy regardless.

    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market, wouldn't
    you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of
    other people?

    This is one thing you should look at. How much of his own money does the
    fund manager have invested in his own fund. If 0, avoid the fund. If
    several years worth of salary or more, it is a good sign!

    Superstar fundmanagers have a _lot_ of money invested in their own funds.
    One of swedens richer men, and fund superstar Christer Gardell has most of
    his fortune invested in his fund mgmt companys funds.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is
    really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has
    done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably will
    get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    This is exactly what I would worry about as well as the size. As the size increases the return will get closer to the market at large. Once Warren
    is not there, they'll lose the Warren effect as well, and I am certain the
    one who takes over will not perform better. Enjoy it while it lasts!

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about
    £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    What's the stock market the same time? My bet would be 8% to 12%.

    Checked it: https://dqydj.com/nasdaq-return-calculator/

    12.983% nominal return. Better than gold, but higher variability.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 22:24:22 2025
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 17:47, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, Lars Poulsen wrote:

    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Mr D. I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*, >>>> that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.

    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?

    And D, what are "k8s"?
    I know about 8-Ks, but in the context, that is not what it is.
    And my sister-in-law signs her mail as "K8"(for Kate), but I don't think >>> that's it, either.


    Hello Lars! k8s stands for kubernetes. Googles cloud orchestration software >> their made open source. Somewhat good for large companies, useless for most >> smaller ones, and potentially useless for largerones as well. ;)

    I took over an online platform recently, and the creators built it on k8s
    with lasers on top! I got it because it cost them too much to run relative >> to what it generated.

    The first thing I did, when I carefully placed it into the hands of my
    technical colleague was to tell him to rip out all the k8s stuff with
    violence.

    He did, and we lowered the operating cost with 70% or so. That means it is >> now profitable. This has proven the power of the traditional way over the
    k8s way to my great satisfaction! =D

    Hmm, makes me wonder... I wonder how many more hipster out there are
    running services at a loss, so that I can take over their platforms for
    free, de-k8s them, and then run them at a profit? =D

    My business partner wanted us to use Lotus Notes. I refused with extreme prejudice. The business survived

    You dodged a bullet! The worlst worst software suite. Even worse actually
    than microsoft. I used it while I was consulting for a couple of month at
    the public swedish television taking care of their power-environment.
    Horrible!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 22:25:57 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 20:19, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    ... I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone else*, >>>>> that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.
    On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and bonds >>> directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with
    most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago.

    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market, wouldn't
    you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of
    other people?

    Most of them actually do that exact thing.
    But the results are there. Some managers consistently beat the markets. Some funds habitually fail to return anything.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is
    really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has
    done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably will
    get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against inflation. >>>
    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about
    £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    I aim for 20% but am happy to accept 10..

    You are a high performer! My aim is to get enough RoI to be able to live
    on the dividends alone. Anything beyond that is extra and highly
    appreciated. =)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 30 22:02:37 2025
    On 30/01/2025 21:25, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 20:19, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    ...   I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone >>>>>> else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.
      On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?
      On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and
    bonds
    directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with
    most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago.

    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market, wouldn't >>> you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of
    other people?

    Most of them actually do that exact thing.
    But the results are there. Some managers consistently beat the
    markets. Some funds habitually fail to return anything.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is
    really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has
    done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably will >>> get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against
    inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about
    £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    I aim for 20% but am happy to accept 10..

    You are a high performer! My aim is to get enough RoI to be able to live
    on the dividends alone. Anything beyond that is extra and highly
    appreciated. =)

    Ah. Well my state pension takes me to the tax limit, so I go for capital
    gains with no dividends. I have a lot of capital losses to write off
    from years ago .

    I only need a small top up for the pension., I don't spend a lot of cash
    - its amazing how cheap it all is once you get rid of a crazy wife.

    --
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
    gospel of envy.

    Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

    Winston Churchill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 19:17:54 2025
    On 1/30/25 4:05 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 20:19, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    ...   I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone
    else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.
    On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and bonds >>> directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with
    most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago.

    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market, wouldn't
    you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of
    other people?

    Most of them actually do that exact thing.
    But the results are there. Some managers consistently beat the markets.
    Some funds habitually fail to return anything.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is
    really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has
    done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably will
    get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against
    inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about
    £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    I aim for 20% but am happy to accept 10..


    Now take that gold doubloon to the convenience store
    and try to buy some Twinkies and a beer :-)

    Like many hard assets, gold is only worth what the
    next guy thinks he can sell it for. Frankly I'm not
    even sure where in town I could convert a gold coin
    to paper money or anything else, there's just no
    infrastructure anymore for using gold as 'real money'.

    Hell, the convenience store clerk would have to have
    an x-ray florescence spectrometer to even tell gold
    from gold-plate, or brass, or bismuth. You can take
    a hot air gun and change a USA 25-cent piece to a really
    nice gold color ... but it's not gold.

    So, nothing against having some gold coin, but you
    are gonna be more liquid using some more intangible
    forms of currency. If you want WW3-proof, well, a
    big barn full of whisky, toilet paper, tampons and
    some heavily-preserved food-like stuffs such as
    Twinkies. In some areas you can add antibiotics
    and opium. These are what would be "most valuable".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Fri Jan 31 10:14:04 2025
    On 31/01/2025 00:17, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:
    On 1/30/25 4:05 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 20:19, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    ...   I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone >>>>>> else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.
    On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and
    bonds
    directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with
    most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago.

    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market, wouldn't >>> you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of
    other people?

    Most of them actually do that exact thing.
    But the results are there. Some managers consistently beat the
    markets. Some funds habitually fail to return anything.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is
    really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has
    done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably will >>> get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against
    inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about
    £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    I aim for 20% but am happy to accept 10..


      Now take that gold doubloon to the convenience store
      and try to buy some Twinkies and a beer  :-)

      Like many hard assets, gold is only worth what the
      next guy thinks he can sell it for. Frankly I'm not
      even sure where in town I could convert a gold coin
      to paper money or anything else, there's just no
      infrastructure anymore for using gold as 'real money'.

    You take it to a registered gold trader and swap it for a cheque.

      Hell, the convenience store clerk would have to have
      an x-ray florescence spectrometer to even tell gold
      from gold-plate, or brass, or bismuth. You can take
      a hot air gun and change a USA 25-cent piece to a really
      nice gold color ... but it's not gold.

      So, nothing against having some gold coin, but you
      are gonna be more liquid using some more intangible
      forms of currency. If you want WW3-proof, well, a
      big barn full of whisky, toilet paper, tampons and
      some heavily-preserved food-like stuffs such as
      Twinkies. In some areas you can add antibiotics
      and opium. These are what would be "most valuable".

    People will always buy gold.

    --
    “But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an hypothesis!”

    Mary Wollstonecraft

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Jan 31 13:40:09 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 21:25, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 20:19, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> ...   I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone >>>>>>> else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.
      On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?
      On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>> I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and bonds >>>>> directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with
    most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago. >>>>
    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market, wouldn't >>>> you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of
    other people?

    Most of them actually do that exact thing.
    But the results are there. Some managers consistently beat the markets.
    Some funds habitually fail to return anything.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is
    really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has
    done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably will >>>> get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against
    inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about >>>>> £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    I aim for 20% but am happy to accept 10..

    You are a high performer! My aim is to get enough RoI to be able to live on >> the dividends alone. Anything beyond that is extra and highly appreciated. >> =)

    Ah. Well my state pension takes me to the tax limit, so I go for capital gains with no dividends. I have a lot of capital losses to write off from years ago .

    I only need a small top up for the pension., I don't spend a lot of cash - its amazing how cheap it all is once you get rid of a crazy wife.

    Ahh... that makes sense. You are a lucky man who has a pensionplan that actually pays out something! ;)

    I'm a few decades behind, so my pension will be laughable. That's why I
    have the focus I have, and any eventual pension money will just be pocket change.

    Hmm, come to think of it, it is not entirely impossible that my
    self-managed pension account from when I had regular jobs, might actually
    be equal too or far bigger than my government pension even though it only consisted of 10% of the premiums.

    That would be an enormous show of force for doing it yourself,
    alternatively, how badly the government runs stuff.

    Ahh... and the government wasted about 200 million euro of pensions on Northvolt. They are retards!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Fri Jan 31 13:46:46 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 1/30/25 4:05 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 20:19, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    ...   I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone >>>>>> else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.
    On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and bonds >>>> directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with
    most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago.

    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market, wouldn't >>> you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of
    other people?

    Most of them actually do that exact thing.
    But the results are there. Some managers consistently beat the markets.
    Some funds habitually fail to return anything.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is
    really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has
    done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably will >>> get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against inflation. >>>>
    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about
    £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    I aim for 20% but am happy to accept 10..


    Now take that gold doubloon to the convenience store
    and try to buy some Twinkies and a beer :-)

    Like many hard assets, gold is only worth what the
    next guy thinks he can sell it for. Frankly I'm not
    even sure where in town I could convert a gold coin
    to paper money or anything else, there's just no
    infrastructure anymore for using gold as 'real money'.

    Hell, the convenience store clerk would have to have
    an x-ray florescence spectrometer to even tell gold
    from gold-plate, or brass, or bismuth. You can take
    a hot air gun and change a USA 25-cent piece to a really
    nice gold color ... but it's not gold.

    So, nothing against having some gold coin, but you
    are gonna be more liquid using some more intangible
    forms of currency. If you want WW3-proof, well, a
    big barn full of whisky, toilet paper, tampons and
    some heavily-preserved food-like stuffs such as
    Twinkies. In some areas you can add antibiotics
    and opium. These are what would be "most valuable".


    For WW3 security, add a good, happy and local community as well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 31 13:08:58 2025
    On 31/01/2025 12:40, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 21:25, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 20:19, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>> ...   I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by
    someone else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.
      On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?
      On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and >>>>>> bonds
    directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with >>>>> most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years
    ago.

    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market,
    wouldn't
    you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of >>>>> other people?

    Most of them actually do that exact thing.
    But the results are there. Some managers consistently beat the
    markets. Some funds habitually fail to return anything.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is >>>>> really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has >>>>> done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably
    will
    get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against
    inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about >>>>>> £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    I aim for 20% but am happy to accept 10..

    You are a high performer! My aim is to get enough RoI to be able to
    live on the dividends alone. Anything beyond that is extra and highly
    appreciated. =)

    Ah. Well my state pension takes me to the tax limit, so I go for
    capital gains with no dividends. I have a lot of capital losses to
    write off from years ago .

    I only need a small top up for the pension., I don't spend a lot of
    cash - its amazing how cheap it all is once you get rid of a crazy wife.

    Ahh... that makes sense. You are a lucky man who has a pensionplan that actually pays out something! ;)

    No. That is purely the state pension.
    My other pension I now manage but it doesn't pay out because of tax.
    The third thing is a pure lump of cash invested in the markets. I take
    that as capital gains but never reach any taxable amount


    I'm a few decades behind, so my pension will be laughable. That's why I
    have the focus I have, and any eventual pension money will just be
    pocket change.

    Hmm, come to think of it, it is not entirely impossible that my
    self-managed pension account from when I had regular jobs, might
    actually be equal too or far bigger than my government pension even
    though it only consisted of 10% of the premiums.

    I assumed by the time I got old the government pension schemes would
    have collapsed.

    That would be an enormous show of force for doing it yourself,
    alternatively, how badly the government runs stuff.

    Ahh... and the government wasted about 200 million euro of pensions on Northvolt. They are retards!

    Of course they are. Who else goes into government?


    --
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
    In practice, there is.
    -- Yogi Berra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 31 16:16:38 2025
    On 1/31/25 7:46 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:


     So, nothing against having some gold coin, but you
     are gonna be more liquid using some more intangible
     forms of currency. If you want WW3-proof, well, a
     big barn full of whisky, toilet paper, tampons and
     some heavily-preserved food-like stuffs such as
     Twinkies. In some areas you can add antibiotics
     and opium. These are what would be "most valuable".


    For WW3 security, add a good, happy and local community as well.

    I've mentioned that to some 'prepper' types, but
    they're convinced the should lace their property
    with land mines and fire on anything that moves.

    If it's THAT bad then they likely won't last a week
    before marauders get 'em. Ya gotta sleep sometime.

    A mutually-supportive community is what you need,
    everybody can do their bit and add their skills
    and also kinda be yer Army.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Jan 31 22:56:54 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 31 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 31/01/2025 12:40, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 21:25, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 20:19, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>> ...   I have in my portfolio anything that is *managed by someone >>>>>>>>> else*,
    that has shown consistent growth over the last few years.
      On 30/01/2025 13:44, Lars Poulsen wrote:
    TNP, what do you mean by "managed by someone else"?
    Not managed by you? Not managed by an investor-appointed board?
      On 2025-01-30, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> I mean these days I invest in managed funds, not stocks shares and >>>>>>> bonds
    directly.

    My research says that index funds on the whole perform on a par with >>>>>> most managed funds. Which I learned from Warren Buffett many years ago. >>>>>>
    If you were a funds manager who could reliably beat the market,
    wouldn't
    you spend your time managing your own investments rather than thos of >>>>>> other people?

    Most of them actually do that exact thing.
    But the results are there. Some managers consistently beat the markets. >>>>> Some funds habitually fail to return anything.

    The only "individual stock" I hold is Berkshire Hathaway, but that is >>>>>> really more of an exchange traded managed investment fund. And it has >>>>>> done slightly better than SP500, butt not by a lot, and it probably >>>>>> will
    get worse than that once Warren retires or dies.

    Curiously physical gold is over time a very good hedge against
    inflation.

    £10,000 purchased by someone I know in 2005 seems to be worth about >>>>>>> £80,000 now...

    That's 11% annual yield. Good, but nbot amazing.

    I aim for 20% but am happy to accept 10..

    You are a high performer! My aim is to get enough RoI to be able to live >>>> on the dividends alone. Anything beyond that is extra and highly
    appreciated. =)

    Ah. Well my state pension takes me to the tax limit, so I go for capital >>> gains with no dividends. I have a lot of capital losses to write off from >>> years ago .

    I only need a small top up for the pension., I don't spend a lot of cash - >>> its amazing how cheap it all is once you get rid of a crazy wife.

    Ahh... that makes sense. You are a lucky man who has a pensionplan that
    actually pays out something! ;)

    No. That is purely the state pension.
    My other pension I now manage but it doesn't pay out because of tax.
    The third thing is a pure lump of cash invested in the markets. I take that as capital gains but never reach any taxable amount

    The UK tax system sounds complicated! I fear it will become more socialist
    with Starmer at the helm. =(


    I'm a few decades behind, so my pension will be laughable. That's why I
    have the focus I have, and any eventual pension money will just be pocket
    change.

    Hmm, come to think of it, it is not entirely impossible that my
    self-managed pension account from when I had regular jobs, might actually
    be equal too or far bigger than my government pension even though it only
    consisted of 10% of the premiums.

    I assumed by the time I got old the government pension schemes would have collapsed.

    Ahh... if it didn't happen when you reach retirement age, perhaps it won't happen by the time I'm there! One can always hope. ;)

    I'm part of a huge bump in the demographic pyramid, so I assume once my generation starts to reach retirement age, all of a sudden politics will
    make the pensions of my generation a bit more generous at the expense of
    the next. ;)

    This is the way it was been with every generation since after WW2.

    That would be an enormous show of force for doing it yourself,
    alternatively, how badly the government runs stuff.

    Ahh... and the government wasted about 200 million euro of pensions on
    Northvolt. They are retards!

    Of course they are. Who else goes into government?

    This is the truth! I once knew a partner in a big and mighty law firm. He
    told me that all retarded lawyers go into government work, and that is why
    they never can win against good lawyers in the private sector.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Fri Jan 31 23:48:36 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 31 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 1/31/25 7:46 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:


     So, nothing against having some gold coin, but you
     are gonna be more liquid using some more intangible
     forms of currency. If you want WW3-proof, well, a
     big barn full of whisky, toilet paper, tampons and
     some heavily-preserved food-like stuffs such as
     Twinkies. In some areas you can add antibiotics
     and opium. These are what would be "most valuable".


    For WW3 security, add a good, happy and local community as well.

    I've mentioned that to some 'prepper' types, but
    they're convinced the should lace their property
    with land mines and fire on anything that moves.

    If it's THAT bad then they likely won't last a week
    before marauders get 'em. Ya gotta sleep sometime.

    This is the truth! I always think to myself, how would I attack a man with
    10 AR-15:s and bullet proofs vests hiding in his house? I would burn down
    the house! Worked for the vikings, and I'm sure it would work equally
    well 1000 years later. ;)

    A mutually-supportive community is what you need,
    everybody can do their bit and add their skills
    and also kinda be yer Army.

    This is the truth!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 31 20:26:00 2025
    On 1/31/25 5:48 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 31 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 1/31/25 7:46 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:


     So, nothing against having some gold coin, but you
     are gonna be more liquid using some more intangible
     forms of currency. If you want WW3-proof, well, a
     big barn full of whisky, toilet paper, tampons and
     some heavily-preserved food-like stuffs such as
     Twinkies. In some areas you can add antibiotics
     and opium. These are what would be "most valuable".


    For WW3 security, add a good, happy and local community as well.

     I've mentioned that to some 'prepper' types, but
     they're convinced the should lace their property
     with land mines and fire on anything that moves.

     If it's THAT bad then they likely won't last a week
     before marauders get 'em. Ya gotta sleep sometime.

    This is the truth! I always think to myself, how would I attack a man
    with 10 AR-15:s and bullet proofs vests hiding in his house? I would
    burn down the house! Worked for the vikings, and I'm sure it would work equally well 1000 years later. ;)


    But you might damage the whisky bottles !!!

    Better to just *harass* him for about 10 days
    straight so he can't sleep and goes insane.
    He will use up all his ammo shooting at the
    imaginary pterodactyls in his living room.

     A mutually-supportive community is what you need,
     everybody can do their bit and add their skills
     and also kinda be yer Army.

    This is the truth!

    It's probably all the post-apocalypse books
    and movies since Russia got The Bomb ... it
    predisposes people towards a "stand alone
    against all" mentality.

    Oh well, if Prepper John keeps shooting at
    all passer-by, just doze up a dirt wall
    and check back every few months to see if
    he's finally died.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Sat Feb 1 11:30:49 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Fri, 31 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 1/31/25 5:48 PM, D wrote:


    On Fri, 31 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 1/31/25 7:46 AM, D wrote:


    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:


     So, nothing against having some gold coin, but you
     are gonna be more liquid using some more intangible
     forms of currency. If you want WW3-proof, well, a
     big barn full of whisky, toilet paper, tampons and
     some heavily-preserved food-like stuffs such as
     Twinkies. In some areas you can add antibiotics
     and opium. These are what would be "most valuable".


    For WW3 security, add a good, happy and local community as well.

     I've mentioned that to some 'prepper' types, but
     they're convinced the should lace their property
     with land mines and fire on anything that moves.

     If it's THAT bad then they likely won't last a week
     before marauders get 'em. Ya gotta sleep sometime.

    This is the truth! I always think to myself, how would I attack a man with >> 10 AR-15:s and bullet proofs vests hiding in his house? I would burn down
    the house! Worked for the vikings, and I'm sure it would work equally well >> 1000 years later. ;)


    But you might damage the whisky bottles !!!

    Better to just *harass* him for about 10 days
    straight so he can't sleep and goes insane.
    He will use up all his ammo shooting at the
    imaginary pterodactyls in his living room.

    Brilliant! We'll rig several 1000 watt or more, speakers around his house
    and blast grindcore music at him 24/7. That should be enough do drive him
    mad, unless he is a grind core fan. ;)

    Hmm, didn't the US do that to some south american dictator who sought
    refuge in an embassy in the US in the 70s or 80s?

     A mutually-supportive community is what you need,
     everybody can do their bit and add their skills
     and also kinda be yer Army.

    This is the truth!

    It's probably all the post-apocalypse books
    and movies since Russia got The Bomb ... it
    predisposes people towards a "stand alone
    against all" mentality.

    Oh well, if Prepper John keeps shooting at
    all passer-by, just doze up a dirt wall
    and check back every few months to see if
    he's finally died.

    Once he cuts himself and gets an infected finger, and no one wants to sell
    him anti-biotics, his end will come quickly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Sat Feb 1 19:49:41 2025
    On 2025-02-01, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net <WokieSux283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    It's probably all the post-apocalypse books
    and movies since Russia got The Bomb ... it
    predisposes people towards a "stand alone
    against all" mentality.

    Oh well, if Prepper John keeps shooting at
    all passer-by, just doze up a dirt wall
    and check back every few months to see if
    he's finally died.

    A good contemporary story dealing with it is Cory Doctorow's
    _Masque of the Red Death_, from his anthology _Radicalized_.
    The other three stories in the book are also well worth reading,
    especially _Unauthorized Bread_.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Feb 1 20:10:41 2025
    On 01/02/2025 19:49, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2025-02-01, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net <WokieSux283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    It's probably all the post-apocalypse books
    and movies since Russia got The Bomb ... it
    predisposes people towards a "stand alone
    against all" mentality.

    Oh well, if Prepper John keeps shooting at
    all passer-by, just doze up a dirt wall
    and check back every few months to see if
    he's finally died.

    A good contemporary story dealing with it is Cory Doctorow's
    _Masque of the Red Death_, from his anthology _Radicalized_.
    The other three stories in the book are also well worth reading,
    especially _Unauthorized Bread_.

    Masque of the red death is an edgar allan poe story.

    --
    “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

    —Soren Kierkegaard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Feb 2 00:35:05 2025
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 20:10:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Masque of the red death is an edgar allan poe story.

    Doctorow took the title and theme into the 21st century.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Feb 1 23:10:21 2025
    On 2/1/25 7:35 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 20:10:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Masque of the red death is an edgar allan poe story.

    Doctorow took the title and theme into the 21st century.


    I mostly remember Poe ... and I think there
    was a Brit horror flik with Vincent Price
    that didn't stick very closely to the Poe story.

    As slowly revealed, Poe was a real polymath who
    delved into all sorts of subjects including
    sci/tech and astronomy. The ghoulish stories
    were just a profitable sideline.

    To this day nobody knows what killed him. The
    theory he was a major addict was the invention
    of a hated rival news reporter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Sun Feb 2 08:25:00 2025
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 23:10:21 -0500, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I mostly remember Poe ... and I think there was a Brit horror flik
    with Vincent Price that didn't stick very closely to the Poe story.

    Roger Corman did it twice. Price was in the first one. Netflix has a
    series 'The Fall of the House of Usher' very loosely based on Poe's
    stories.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fall_of_the_House_of_Usher_(miniseries)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Feb 2 10:16:39 2025
    On 02/02/2025 08:25, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 23:10:21 -0500, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I mostly remember Poe ... and I think there was a Brit horror flik
    with Vincent Price that didn't stick very closely to the Poe story.

    Roger Corman did it twice. Price was in the first one. Netflix has a
    series 'The Fall of the House of Usher' very loosely based on Poe's
    stories.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fall_of_the_House_of_Usher_(miniseries)
    Yeah : I read 'the pit and the pendulum' at a pretty young age and had nightmares afterwards. Think the same volume had the masque and the fall
    of the house of usher in it too...

    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Charlie Gibbs on Sun Feb 2 11:43:56 2025
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2025-02-01, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net <WokieSux283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    It's probably all the post-apocalypse books
    and movies since Russia got The Bomb ... it
    predisposes people towards a "stand alone
    against all" mentality.

    Oh well, if Prepper John keeps shooting at
    all passer-by, just doze up a dirt wall
    and check back every few months to see if
    he's finally died.

    A good contemporary story dealing with it is Cory Doctorow's
    _Masque of the Red Death_, from his anthology _Radicalized_.
    The other three stories in the book are also well worth reading,
    especially _Unauthorized Bread_.

    Are they deep? I like the theme of his books, but his writing and stories
    seem a bit shallow to me sometimes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Sun Feb 2 11:46:53 2025
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 2/1/25 7:35 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 20:10:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Masque of the red death is an edgar allan poe story.

    Doctorow took the title and theme into the 21st century.


    I mostly remember Poe ... and I think there
    was a Brit horror flik with Vincent Price
    that didn't stick very closely to the Poe story.

    As slowly revealed, Poe was a real polymath who
    delved into all sorts of subjects including
    sci/tech and astronomy. The ghoulish stories
    were just a profitable sideline.

    To this day nobody knows what killed him. The
    theory he was a major addict was the invention
    of a hated rival news reporter.

    I thought the prevailing theory is that he still walks among us?
    Apparently one of his private projects looking into immortality bore
    fruit, and he became immortal.

    Now what about Lovecraft? Any love for Lovecraft in this group?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 2 11:11:10 2025
    On 02/02/2025 10:46, D wrote:


    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 2/1/25 7:35 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 20:10:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Masque of the red death is an edgar allan poe story.

    Doctorow took the title and theme into the 21st century.


     I mostly remember Poe ... and I think there
     was a Brit horror flik with Vincent Price
     that didn't stick very closely to the Poe story.

     As slowly revealed, Poe was a real polymath who
     delved into all sorts of subjects including
     sci/tech and astronomy. The ghoulish stories
     were just a profitable sideline.

     To this day nobody knows what killed him. The
     theory he was a major addict was the invention
     of a hated rival news reporter.

    I thought the prevailing theory is that he still walks among us?
    Apparently one of his private projects looking into immortality bore
    fruit, and he became immortal.

    Now what about Lovecraft? Any love for Lovecraft in this group?

    Not a lot of Cthulu cultists here I suspect.

    If you have ever read Charles Stross's 'Laundry files' he parodies just
    about every SF/horror author going.

    Highly recommended if you have worked in IT.



    --
    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Sun Feb 2 12:53:22 2025
    On 2025-02-02, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

    On 2025-02-01, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net <WokieSux283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

    It's probably all the post-apocalypse books
    and movies since Russia got The Bomb ... it
    predisposes people towards a "stand alone
    against all" mentality.

    Oh well, if Prepper John keeps shooting at
    all passer-by, just doze up a dirt wall
    and check back every few months to see if
    he's finally died.

    A good contemporary story dealing with it is Cory Doctorow's
    _Masque of the Red Death_, from his anthology _Radicalized_.
    The other three stories in the book are also well worth reading,
    especially _Unauthorized Bread_.

    Are they deep? I like the theme of his books, but his writing and stories seem a bit shallow to me sometimes.

    I found them capable of making me believe that what they describe
    could happen, if not tomorrow, then within a year. The title
    story, in fact, is already coming true.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 2 20:52:23 2025
    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 11:43:56 +0100, D wrote:

    Are they deep? I like the theme of his books, but his writing and
    stories seem a bit shallow to me sometimes.

    I enjoyed his 'Red Team Blues'. He's written another with the Hench
    character but I haven't read it. It seemed well researched although cryptocurrency isn't my thing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Feb 2 21:57:11 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 02/02/2025 10:46, D wrote:


    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 2/1/25 7:35 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 20:10:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Masque of the red death is an edgar allan poe story.

    Doctorow took the title and theme into the 21st century.


     I mostly remember Poe ... and I think there
     was a Brit horror flik with Vincent Price
     that didn't stick very closely to the Poe story.

     As slowly revealed, Poe was a real polymath who
     delved into all sorts of subjects including
     sci/tech and astronomy. The ghoulish stories
     were just a profitable sideline.

     To this day nobody knows what killed him. The
     theory he was a major addict was the invention
     of a hated rival news reporter.

    I thought the prevailing theory is that he still walks among us? Apparently >> one of his private projects looking into immortality bore fruit, and he
    became immortal.

    Now what about Lovecraft? Any love for Lovecraft in this group?

    Not a lot of Cthulu cultists here I suspect.

    If you have ever read Charles Stross's 'Laundry files' he parodies just about every SF/horror author going.

    Highly recommended if you have worked in IT.

    Thank you will have a look. Currently reading More than human. I enjoy it! Nothing beats the golden age of science fiction. Most, if not all, modern science fiction pales in comparison.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 2 21:00:26 2025
    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 11:46:53 +0100, D wrote:

    Now what about Lovecraft? Any love for Lovecraft in this group?

    Lovecraft was an antisemitic racist. He would have a ball with today's US cities as they descend into decadence.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Feb 2 22:02:40 2025
    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 11:43:56 +0100, D wrote:

    Are they deep? I like the theme of his books, but his writing and
    stories seem a bit shallow to me sometimes.

    I enjoyed his 'Red Team Blues'. He's written another with the Hench character but I haven't read it. It seemed well researched although cryptocurrency isn't my thing.


    Well, let's see... I read little brother and I think one other, and
    although there were good points and nice extrapolation from the theme, his writing didn't quite appeal to me. But we'll see.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Feb 2 20:50:15 2025
    On 2/2/25 3:25 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 23:10:21 -0500, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    I mostly remember Poe ... and I think there was a Brit horror flik
    with Vincent Price that didn't stick very closely to the Poe story.

    Roger Corman did it twice. Price was in the first one. Netflix has a
    series 'The Fall of the House of Usher' very loosely based on Poe's
    stories.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fall_of_the_House_of_Usher_(miniseries)


    I'm not very fond of "fixed-up"/"modernized" versions
    of old classics.

    Ok, ok ... if they were writ in middle/old English then
    yea it's a help to 'update' the language a bit - but
    please don't change the plot.

    Some years back there was a 'take off' on War Of
    The Worlds with Tom Cruise. This was less objectionable
    because while they kept the underlying theme the film
    was about the invasion from the Regular Joe's POV.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 3 03:47:11 2025
    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 22:02:40 +0100, D wrote:


    Well, let's see... I read little brother and I think one other, and
    although there were good points and nice extrapolation from the theme,
    his writing didn't quite appeal to me. But we'll see.

    I never read 'Little Brother'. When I go to the library I usually scan
    the shelves for the author. That series is shelved in YA. I don't know
    where that is in the new library but the old one had a separate kids
    section and I felt out of place.

    I can't remember the author or the book but I did make the trek once. I
    was surprised it had been tagged as YA. I asked a librarian and she said
    they go with whatever the publisher calls it. It wasn't obscene but it
    didn't seem to fit the genre.

    I think kids should be able to read whatever they want to but if you have
    a special category there must be some criteria.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Feb 3 22:51:31 2025
    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 11:46:53 +0100, D wrote:

    Now what about Lovecraft? Any love for Lovecraft in this group?

    Lovecraft was an antisemitic racist. He would have a ball with today's US cities as they descend into decadence.


    Many historical persons, artists, scientists etc. were antisemitic
    racists. I do not care at all, and I certainly do not judge them by todays standards. I still enjoy their books and music. But to each his own. ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Feb 3 22:57:39 2025
    On Mon, 3 Feb 2025, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 22:02:40 +0100, D wrote:


    Well, let's see... I read little brother and I think one other, and
    although there were good points and nice extrapolation from the theme,
    his writing didn't quite appeal to me. But we'll see.

    I never read 'Little Brother'. When I go to the library I usually scan
    the shelves for the author. That series is shelved in YA. I don't know
    where that is in the new library but the old one had a separate kids
    section and I felt out of place.

    I can't remember the author or the book but I did make the trek once. I
    was surprised it had been tagged as YA. I asked a librarian and she said
    they go with whatever the publisher calls it. It wasn't obscene but it
    didn't seem to fit the genre.

    I think kids should be able to read whatever they want to but if you have
    a special category there must be some criteria.

    Wasn't there a lot of noise about some states banning certain books in
    school libraries some months ago?

    I think that children should read more. I see how my students are
    struggling with the simplest man pages, and I wish the young of today
    would become ninja readers!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 3 22:24:33 2025
    On 2/3/25 4:57 PM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 3 Feb 2025, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 22:02:40 +0100, D wrote:


    Well, let's see... I read little brother and I think one other, and
    although there were good points and nice extrapolation from the theme,
    his writing didn't quite appeal to me. But we'll see.

    I never read 'Little Brother'.  When I go to the library I usually scan
    the shelves for the author. That series is shelved in YA. I don't know
    where that is in the new library but the old one had a separate kids
    section and I felt out of place.

    I can't remember the author or the book but I did make the trek once. I
    was surprised it had been tagged as YA. I asked a librarian and she said
    they go with whatever the publisher calls it. It wasn't obscene but it
    didn't seem to fit the genre.

    I think kids should be able to read whatever they want to but if you have
    a special category there must be some criteria.

    Wasn't there a lot of noise about some states banning certain books in
    school libraries some months ago?


    There are 'books' - and then there's 'political propaganda'.

    In any case, the books aren't "banned" - you can buy 'em on
    Amazon if you want - it's just that The State isn't gonna
    pay to keep them in public institutions anymore.


    I think that children should read more. I see how my students are
    struggling with the simplest man pages, and I wish the young of today
    would become ninja readers!

    LONG back we were taught intensely and intelligently.
    Rare to find any student going into grade 3 that was
    not a good reader/writer.

    Today however ........ everyone is supposed to let the
    very lowest common denominator set the standard so
    nobody will 'feel bad'.

    Another good reason for Trump to nuke the federal
    Dept Of Ed and every brain-dead Wokie he can find
    in that business.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 4 06:00:47 2025
    On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 22:51:31 +0100, D wrote:

    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 11:46:53 +0100, D wrote:

    Now what about Lovecraft? Any love for Lovecraft in this group?

    Lovecraft was an antisemitic racist. He would have a ball with today's
    US cities as they descend into decadence.


    Many historical persons, artists, scientists etc. were antisemitic
    racists. I do not care at all, and I certainly do not judge them by
    todays standards. I still enjoy their books and music. But to each his
    own. ;)

    I forgot the emoji for 'tongue in cheek'.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Tue Feb 4 06:09:01 2025
    On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 22:24:33 -0500, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    There are 'books' - and then there's 'political propaganda'.

    In any case, the books aren't "banned" - you can buy 'em on Amazon if
    you want - it's just that The State isn't gonna pay to keep them in
    public institutions anymore.

    I must confess to one episode of shoplifting a copy of 'Candy'. I would
    have happily paid for it but they wouldn't sell it to a kid.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_(Southern_and_Hoffenberg_novel)

    Some years later I dated a girl named Candy and I gave her the book. She
    was not amused.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Tue Feb 4 17:33:15 2025
    On Mon, 3 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Wasn't there a lot of noise about some states banning certain books in
    school libraries some months ago?

    There are 'books' - and then there's 'political propaganda'.

    In any case, the books aren't "banned" - you can buy 'em on
    Amazon if you want - it's just that The State isn't gonna
    pay to keep them in public institutions anymore.

    Ahh... not as sinister as projected by the mainstream media then. =)

    I think that children should read more. I see how my students are
    struggling with the simplest man pages, and I wish the young of today would >> become ninja readers!

    LONG back we were taught intensely and intelligently.
    Rare to find any student going into grade 3 that was
    not a good reader/writer.

    Today however ........ everyone is supposed to let the
    very lowest common denominator set the standard so
    nobody will 'feel bad'.

    This is the truth! In sweden, youngsters are no longer allowed to keep the score
    in football games, and no winners are declared in order not to hurt anyones feelings. The result I predict, will be stunted fairies who will break down and cry at the slightest bump in the road in their life.

    Another good reason for Trump to nuke the federal
    Dept Of Ed and every brain-dead Wokie he can find
    in that business.

    Oh... you mean the department of indoctrination?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Feb 4 17:37:52 2025
    On Tue, 4 Feb 2025, rbowman wrote:

    On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 22:51:31 +0100, D wrote:

    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025, rbowman wrote:

    On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 11:46:53 +0100, D wrote:

    Now what about Lovecraft? Any love for Lovecraft in this group?

    Lovecraft was an antisemitic racist. He would have a ball with today's
    US cities as they descend into decadence.


    Many historical persons, artists, scientists etc. were antisemitic
    racists. I do not care at all, and I certainly do not judge them by
    todays standards. I still enjoy their books and music. But to each his
    own. ;)

    I forgot the emoji for 'tongue in cheek'.


    Oh... that explains it! Makes more sense now. =)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 4 15:03:03 2025
    On 2/4/25 11:33 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 3 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Wasn't there a lot of noise about some states banning certain books
    in school libraries some months ago?

     There are 'books' - and then there's 'political propaganda'.

     In any case, the books aren't "banned" - you can buy 'em on
     Amazon if you want - it's just that The State isn't gonna
     pay to keep them in public institutions anymore.

    Ahh... not as sinister as projected by the mainstream media then. =)


    They'd want people to believe the 'Firemen' are going
    door to door and incinerating all gay-themed material :-)


    I think that children should read more. I see how my students are
    struggling with the simplest man pages, and I wish the young of today
    would become ninja readers!

     LONG back we were taught intensely and intelligently.
     Rare to find any student going into grade 3 that was
     not a good reader/writer.

     Today however ........ everyone is supposed to let the
     very lowest common denominator set the standard so
     nobody will 'feel bad'.

    This is the truth! In sweden, youngsters are no longer allowed to keep
    the score
    in football games, and no winners are declared in order not to hurt anyones feelings. The result I predict, will be stunted fairies who will break
    down and
    cry at the slightest bump in the road in their life.


    Good luck when the Russians arrive ......


     Another good reason for Trump to nuke the federal
     Dept Of Ed and every brain-dead Wokie he can find
     in that business.

    Oh... you mean the department of indoctrination?

    Well, truth, it's kinda always been thus.
    My youth was during the Cold War and there
    were efforts to inculcate 'patriotism' and
    pro-militarism and 'Christian values' to
    counter them damned Godless Commies.

    There was one REQUIRED course ... the text book
    was called "Americanism -vs- Communism" and they
    usually had an old mil vet as the teacher.

    But at least that crap kinda left the kiddies
    feeling empowered - instead of mentally crushed
    and confused like today's Wokie garbage. In
    short, 50s-80s they wanted to create 'warriors'
    while 90s on the goal was to create simpering
    weirdo wimps who just LOVE Big (Tranny) Brother.

    It'd be great if they just QUIT with the indoc
    stuff ... but I don't think govts can resist
    the urge. A required course on ETHICS would
    be the far better approach.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Computer Nerd Kev@21:1/5 to nospam@example.net on Wed Feb 5 06:54:56 2025
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    I think that children should read more. I see how my students are
    struggling with the simplest man pages,

    Well some man pages are terribly written too.

    and I wish the young of today would become ninja readers!

    Ninja writers would be even better. What happened to the people who
    used to write HOWTOs on The Linux Documentation Project? It's now
    been ten years since anything was updated there. But it's still an
    excellent source for some info that's tricky to find with web
    searches and skimmed over in man pages.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Tue Feb 4 21:59:37 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Tue, 4 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 2/4/25 11:33 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 3 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Wasn't there a lot of noise about some states banning certain books in >>>> school libraries some months ago?

     There are 'books' - and then there's 'political propaganda'.

     In any case, the books aren't "banned" - you can buy 'em on
     Amazon if you want - it's just that The State isn't gonna
     pay to keep them in public institutions anymore.

    Ahh... not as sinister as projected by the mainstream media then. =)


    They'd want people to believe the 'Firemen' are going
    door to door and incinerating all gay-themed material :-)

    Yes, makes sense. If not drama, it won't catch on with the public. ;)

    I think that children should read more. I see how my students are
    struggling with the simplest man pages, and I wish the young of today
    would become ninja readers!

     LONG back we were taught intensely and intelligently.
     Rare to find any student going into grade 3 that was
     not a good reader/writer.

     Today however ........ everyone is supposed to let the
     very lowest common denominator set the standard so
     nobody will 'feel bad'.

    This is the truth! In sweden, youngsters are no longer allowed to keep the >> score
    in football games, and no winners are declared in order not to hurt anyones >> feelings. The result I predict, will be stunted fairies who will break down >> and
    cry at the slightest bump in the road in their life.


    Good luck when the Russians arrive ......

    Exactly! On the other hand, 10 000 000 against 140 000 000 means there
    would be no chance anyway, so nothing to worry about. ;)

     Another good reason for Trump to nuke the federal
     Dept Of Ed and every brain-dead Wokie he can find
     in that business.

    Oh... you mean the department of indoctrination?

    Well, truth, it's kinda always been thus.
    My youth was during the Cold War and there
    were efforts to inculcate 'patriotism' and
    pro-militarism and 'Christian values' to
    counter them damned Godless Commies.

    Did it work?

    There was one REQUIRED course ... the text book
    was called "Americanism -vs- Communism" and they
    usually had an old mil vet as the teacher.

    Do you know how to... "duck and cover!" ? ;) Hmm, this reminds me of
    starship troopers.

    But at least that crap kinda left the kiddies
    feeling empowered - instead of mentally crushed
    and confused like today's Wokie garbage. In
    short, 50s-80s they wanted to create 'warriors'
    while 90s on the goal was to create simpering
    weirdo wimps who just LOVE Big (Tranny) Brother.

    Are you saying this continued in the 80s? This is very interesting! I
    wonder if Trump is planning on reviving some of that? I mean, the books
    surely are somewhere in a dusty warehouse, so just bring them back, and in
    no time (or maybe a generation) the US will be back on its feet! =)

    It'd be great if they just QUIT with the indoc
    stuff ... but I don't think govts can resist
    the urge. A required course on ETHICS would
    be the far better approach.

    Of course not. In sweden every time there is a change from the left to the right or back, the first thing they do is to redesign the school system.
    You have to start indoctrinating them early for it to stick! ;)

    Oh... what do I spy in todays mainstream meadia... a school shooting in
    sweden with 10 dead. This is a sad high score for sweden. Note that sweden
    has very strict gun laws, so apparently strict gun laws does not solve the problem.

    I expect sweden to outlaw fireworks and eventually require a license on
    tooth picks to show the public that the government is "acting". I expect
    it will achieve very little.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to Computer Nerd Kev on Wed Feb 5 00:58:58 2025
    On 2/4/25 3:54 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    I think that children should read more. I see how my students are
    struggling with the simplest man pages,

    Well some man pages are terribly written too.

    and I wish the young of today would become ninja readers!

    Ninja writers would be even better. What happened to the people who
    used to write HOWTOs on The Linux Documentation Project? It's now
    been ten years since anything was updated there. But it's still an
    excellent source for some info that's tricky to find with web
    searches and skimmed over in man pages.


    Intelligence, literacy ... all POISON to
    the WokieLeft agenda.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WokieSux283@ud0s4.net@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 5 01:16:10 2025
    On 2/4/25 3:59 PM, D wrote:


    On Tue, 4 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    On 2/4/25 11:33 AM, D wrote:


    On Mon, 3 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Wasn't there a lot of noise about some states banning certain books
    in school libraries some months ago?

     There are 'books' - and then there's 'political propaganda'.

     In any case, the books aren't "banned" - you can buy 'em on
     Amazon if you want - it's just that The State isn't gonna
     pay to keep them in public institutions anymore.

    Ahh... not as sinister as projected by the mainstream media then. =)


     They'd want people to believe the 'Firemen' are going
     door to door and incinerating all gay-themed material :-)

    Yes, makes sense. If not drama, it won't catch on with the public. ;)

    I think that children should read more. I see how my students are
    struggling with the simplest man pages, and I wish the young of
    today would become ninja readers!

     LONG back we were taught intensely and intelligently.
     Rare to find any student going into grade 3 that was
     not a good reader/writer.

     Today however ........ everyone is supposed to let the
     very lowest common denominator set the standard so
     nobody will 'feel bad'.

    This is the truth! In sweden, youngsters are no longer allowed to
    keep the score
    in football games, and no winners are declared in order not to hurt
    anyones
    feelings. The result I predict, will be stunted fairies who will
    break down and
    cry at the slightest bump in the road in their life.


     Good luck when the Russians arrive ......

    Exactly! On the other hand, 10 000 000 against 140 000 000 means there
    would be no chance anyway, so nothing to worry about. ;)


    Oh well then, you're doomed. Better learn to
    read Cyrillic :-)


     Another good reason for Trump to nuke the federal
     Dept Of Ed and every brain-dead Wokie he can find
     in that business.

    Oh... you mean the department of indoctrination?

     Well, truth, it's kinda always been thus.
     My youth was during the Cold War and there
     were efforts to inculcate 'patriotism' and
     pro-militarism and 'Christian values' to
     counter them damned Godless Commies.

    Did it work?


    They went overboard ... which kinda provoked,
    inside USA culture anyway, the exact opposite
    reaction. The WokieComs then built on that.

    Unintended consequences ...

    Americans are just kinda naturally "contrary".
    Rebel scum to the end :-)


     There was one REQUIRED course ... the text book
     was called "Americanism -vs- Communism" and they
     usually had an old mil vet as the teacher.

    Do you know how to... "duck and cover!" ? ;) Hmm, this reminds me of
    starship troopers.


    They had D&C drills ...

    ONE teacher would set off an old photoflash
    bulb at random times and see how fast everyone
    would D&C ....

    Yea, THAT bad.

    Those old mangesium+oxygen bulbs were BRIGHT
    and BLINDING ......


     But at least that crap kinda left the kiddies
     feeling empowered - instead of mentally crushed
     and confused like today's Wokie garbage. In
     short, 50s-80s they wanted to create 'warriors'
     while 90s on the goal was to create simpering
     weirdo wimps who just LOVE Big (Tranny) Brother.

    Are you saying this continued in the 80s? This is very interesting! I
    wonder if Trump is planning on reviving some of that? I mean, the books surely are somewhere in a dusty warehouse, so just bring them back, and
    in no time (or maybe a generation) the US will be back on its feet! =)


    The end of the Cold War didn't happen until
    after Reagan.

    Shit, even DURING Reagan the Russian sats THOUGHT
    they saw American missile launches. ONE Russian officer
    called bullshit - against "Launch On Warning" orders -
    and saved the world. He was demoted .....


     It'd be great if they just QUIT with the indoc
     stuff ... but I don't think govts can resist
     the urge. A required course on ETHICS would
     be the far better approach.

    Of course not. In sweden every time there is a change from the left to
    the right or back, the first thing they do is to redesign the school
    system. You have to start indoctrinating them early for it to stick! ;)

    Gullible minds ... you always want to stuff them
    with The Truth (as seen by the current regime)

    Oh... what do I spy in todays mainstream meadia... a school shooting in sweden with 10 dead. This is a sad high score for sweden. Note that
    sweden has very strict gun laws, so apparently strict gun laws does not
    solve the problem.

    Reported that event elsewhere ... SOME claim it only
    happens in the evil USA.

    I guess the UK is "better" ... a gang will surround you
    and stick the knives in. Quieter, cheaper, bigger pool
    of blood .......

    I expect sweden to outlaw fireworks and eventually require a license on
    tooth picks to show the public that the government is "acting". I expect
    it will achieve very little.

    BANANAS ! The ultimate lethal weapon !!!

    As for Sweden ... ummmmmmm ... at this point I just
    don't see a good future. Ya did it to yourselves.
    Best intentions ..........

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Computer Nerd Kev on Wed Feb 5 11:04:03 2025
    On Tue, 5 Feb 2025, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

    D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
    I think that children should read more. I see how my students are
    struggling with the simplest man pages,

    Well some man pages are terribly written too.

    and I wish the young of today would become ninja readers!

    Ninja writers would be even better. What happened to the people who
    used to write HOWTOs on The Linux Documentation Project? It's now
    been ten years since anything was updated there. But it's still an
    excellent source for some info that's tricky to find with web
    searches and skimmed over in man pages.

    This is the truth! I use their bash guide in my teachings!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to WokieSux282@ud0s4.net on Wed Feb 5 11:41:00 2025
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Wed, 5 Feb 2025, WokieSux282@ud0s4.net wrote:

    Exactly! On the other hand, 10 000 000 against 140 000 000 means there
    would be no chance anyway, so nothing to worry about. ;)


    Oh well then, you're doomed. Better learn to
    read Cyrillic :-)

    Exactly! My wifes parents have already been through it once, so I'll rely on their street smarts if it should happen to me. =/

    On a brighter note, they also have as a tradition in their family to be partisans and (now dead) members of the extended family have a history of shooting russians for fun and profit!

    Did it work?


    They went overboard ... which kinda provoked,
    inside USA culture anyway, the exact opposite
    reaction. The WokieComs then built on that.

    I can see how that could happen.

    Unintended consequences ...

    Americans are just kinda naturally "contrary".
    Rebel scum to the end :-)

    ;)

    There was one REQUIRED course ... the text book
    was called "Americanism -vs- Communism" and they
    usually had an old mil vet as the teacher.

    Do you know how to... "duck and cover!" ? ;) Hmm, this reminds me of
    starship troopers.


    They had D&C drills ...

    ONE teacher would set off an old photoflash
    bulb at random times and see how fast everyone
    would D&C ....

    Amazing! Quite a fun teacher! =D

    Yea, THAT bad.

    Those old mangesium+oxygen bulbs were BRIGHT
    and BLINDING ......

    Fascinating, did he do that, and then also tried to simulate leaving the building? ;)


    But at least that crap kinda left the kiddies
    feeling empowered - instead of mentally crushed
    and confused like today's Wokie garbage. In
    short, 50s-80s they wanted to create 'warriors'
    while 90s on the goal was to create simpering
    weirdo wimps who just LOVE Big (Tranny) Brother.

    Are you saying this continued in the 80s? This is very interesting! I
    wonder if Trump is planning on reviving some of that? I mean, the books
    surely are somewhere in a dusty warehouse, so just bring them back, and in >> no time (or maybe a generation) the US will be back on its feet! =)


    The end of the Cold War didn't happen until
    after Reagan.

    Shit, even DURING Reagan the Russian sats THOUGHT
    they saw American missile launches. ONE Russian officer
    called bullshit - against "Launch On Warning" orders -
    and saved the world. He was demoted .....


    It'd be great if they just QUIT with the indoc
    stuff ... but I don't think govts can resist
    the urge. A required course on ETHICS would
    be the far better approach.

    Of course not. In sweden every time there is a change from the left to the >> right or back, the first thing they do is to redesign the school system.
    You have to start indoctrinating them early for it to stick! ;)

    Gullible minds ... you always want to stuff them
    with The Truth (as seen by the current regime)

    Exactly!

    Oh... what do I spy in todays mainstream meadia... a school shooting in
    sweden with 10 dead. This is a sad high score for sweden. Note that sweden >> has very strict gun laws, so apparently strict gun laws does not solve the >> problem.

    Reported that event elsewhere ... SOME claim it only
    happens in the evil USA.

    Hah... they are in for a rude awakening! As sad as it is, seems to happen everywhere in the western world.

    I guess the UK is "better" ... a gang will surround you
    and stick the knives in. Quieter, cheaper, bigger pool
    of blood .......

    Cheaper for sure... but not as efficient! =/ Current death count in sweden 11 as
    of this morning. They say the suspect is also in hospital so I wonder if he tried to kill himself, but was not able to do it? I guess we'll know more in a few days.

    I expect sweden to outlaw fireworks and eventually require a license on
    tooth picks to show the public that the government is "acting". I expect it >> will achieve very little.

    BANANAS ! The ultimate lethal weapon !!!

    Don't under estimate fruit! John Cleese has done a lot of research on that topic
    during his Monty Python time! ;)

    As for Sweden ... ummmmmmm ... at this point I just
    don't see a good future. Ya did it to yourselves.
    Best intentions ..........

    Yep, this is the truth! Sweden historically had a high trust, homogeneous culture which was an enormous benefit when it comes to trade and building the modern nation.

    This naivete completely collided with the arabian culture and the modern world. Add a bit of classic socialism la "everything to everyone" and a pinch of wokeness "everyone is a saint except the white man" and you'll see how sweden got crushed by hordes of arabian taking advantage of said naivete living off the
    government for decade after decade.

    A classic is that some retired arabians living off their government pensions moved back to arabian once they were entitled to the pension, and somehow they aged very well. The pension department started to get suspicious once some arabians started to reach the age of 90 or 100 and only then did they think about maybe questioning things.

    It turned out that the vast majority were long since dead, but their families did not notify the authorities and continued to collect the paychecks for year after year.

    I suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)