Seems like Microsoft’s attempt to fight back against Google’s
Chromebooks in the education market has been a failure, and it is
giving up <https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/microsoft-ending-windows-11-se-support-october-2026-chrome-os-competitor-also-wont-get-version-25h2-update-coming-later-this-year>.
Put the blame on trying to squeeze the Windows quart into the pint-pot
of low-cost, purpose-built educational machines:
Microsoft hasn't given a formal reason as to why they are ending
Windows 11 SE. Presumably, one of the biggest challenges was that
despite being a version meant for classrooms, it was fundamentally
based on the full version of Windows 11. This meant it struggled
to run well on the low-cost devices that schools often buy, a
space where Chrome OS thrives. Google’s offering continues to be a
truly lightweight cloud-based operating system designed from the
ground up for this purpose.
Does this mean we stop including Chromebooks as part of the “desktop” market that Windows is supposedly king of?
Seems like Microsoft’s attempt to fight back against Google’s
Chromebooks in the education market has been a failure, and it is
giving up <https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/microsoft-ending-windows-11-se-support-october-2026-chrome-os-competitor-also-wont-get-version-25h2-update-coming-later-this-year>.
Put the blame on trying to squeeze the Windows quart into the pint-pot
of low-cost, purpose-built educational machines:
Microsoft hasn't given a formal reason as to why they are ending
Windows 11 SE. Presumably, one of the biggest challenges was that
despite being a version meant for classrooms, it was fundamentally
based on the full version of Windows 11. This meant it struggled
to run well on the low-cost devices that schools often buy, a
space where Chrome OS thrives. Google’s offering continues to be a
truly lightweight cloud-based operating system designed from the
ground up for this purpose.
Does this mean we stop including Chromebooks as part of the “desktop” market that Windows is supposedly king of?
On 06/08/2025 12:57, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 6/8/2025 5:11 pm, Marc Haber wrote:
I heard that some banks' ATM machines ARE still using Win95.... :)
And what is the problem with that? Those machines run in a segregated
network and it is very much controlled what is installed on them.
Sometimes old products are more dependable... :)
What was that place that booted up a PDP 11 off a floppy every day? Some railway control system?
On 2025-08-06 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/08/2025 12:57, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 6/8/2025 5:11 pm, Marc Haber wrote:
I heard that some banks' ATM machines ARE still using Win95.... 🙂
And what is the problem with that? Those machines run in a segregated
network and it is very much controlled what is installed on them.
Sometimes old products are more dependable... 🙂
What was that place that booted up a PDP 11 off a floppy every day?
Some railway control system?
Yes, I read about it. A city railway system.
On 6/8/2025 9:30 pm, Marc Haber wrote:
Sometimes old products are more dependable... :)
In this case, probably "the hardware is still okay and it would just
cost money to upgrade the software".
Well, serial and parallel ports are still common among banking gadgets?? :)
On 2025-08-06 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/08/2025 12:57, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 6/8/2025 5:11 pm, Marc Haber wrote:
I heard that some banks' ATM machines ARE still using Win95.... :)
And what is the problem with that? Those machines run in a segregated
network and it is very much controlled what is installed on them.
Sometimes old products are more dependable... :)
What was that place that booted up a PDP 11 off a floppy every day? Some railway control system?
Yes, I read about it. A city railway system.
I asked chatgpt to find it for me. It is quite good for those searches with incomplete data.
ChatGPT:
The San Francisco Muni Metro system **does use internal hard disks**, but the system **must be booted from floppies** each day, probably due to legacy software architecture and startup routines.
"Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6/8/2025 9:30 pm, Marc Haber wrote:
Sometimes old products are more dependable... :)
In this case, probably "the hardware is still okay and it would just
cost money to upgrade the software".
Well, serial and parallel ports are still common among banking gadgets?? :)
Probably. Those things have printers and card readers.
And while the year 1998 suggests Pentium II, the equipment design likely predates
delivery of it, by quite a bit. The processor in it, could be from before Pentium II.
I still have a floppy drive... but it is a USB floppy drive which allows >sharing a floppy with whatever computer "needs it". It's a good thing
I bought that before it was too late. None of the current batch of >motherboards have floppy controllers.
On 7/8/2025 2:30 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I had it in my mind it was a PDP 11. DOS is even worse..
The plain-simple DOS can be very efficient! But by default, it
canNOT multi-tasking!
On 7/8/2025 2:30 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I had it in my mind it was a PDP 11.
DOS is even worse..
The plain-simple DOS can be very efficient! But by default, it canNOT multi-tasking!
On 7/8/2025 2:30 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I had it in my mind it was a PDP 11.
DOS is even worse..
The plain-simple DOS can be very efficient! But by default, it canNOT multi-tasking!
On 07/08/2025 07:33, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 7/8/2025 2:30 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I had it in my mind it was a PDP 11.
DOS is even worse..
The plain-simple DOS can be very efficient! But by default, it canNOT
multi-tasking!
That is a huge advantage in many industrial applications
And its not hard to make an application that IS multitasking to run on it. BTDTGTTS
Remember DOS is not really an 'operating system'
It is a program loader and a series of hardware interface libraries that
you may or may not care to use.
It's actually simpler as an environment than - say - the Raspberry PI
PICO microcontroller.
It'd be nice to have a Linux/Unix proxy for
olde-tyme DOS - tiny, minimal. Don't THINK
it can happen alas. -IX has always been
kind of 'big'.
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
And while the year 1998 suggests Pentium II, the equipment design likely predates
delivery of it, by quite a bit. The processor in it, could be from before Pentium II.
In the 1990ies, electronic switchboxes ("ESTW") used in Germany
employed 8086 and 80186 CPUs because those were simple enough to have
their correctness proven.
Don't expect current hardware in safety relevant IT systems, ever.
If that thing about the metro in san francisco is true (which I
doubt), I woud love to have known that five years ago when everybody
in Germany was still making fun of Deutsche Bahn using Floppies to
bring seat reservation data into the actual train sets. In the mean
time they have switched to Wifi and Cellular, wisely leaving out the
entire USB stick and memory card era.
I still have a floppy drive... but it is a USB floppy drive which allows
sharing a floppy with whatever computer "needs it". It's a good thing
I bought that before it was too late. None of the current batch of
motherboards have floppy controllers.
A USB floppy drive wouldnt need a floppy controller.
Greetings
Marc
On 07/08/2025 07:33, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 7/8/2025 2:30 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I had it in my mind it was a PDP 11.
DOS is even worse..
The plain-simple DOS can be very efficient! But by default, it canNOT
multi-tasking!
That is a huge advantage in many industrial applications
And its not hard to make an application that IS multitasking to run on it. BTDTGTTS
Remember DOS is not really an 'operating system'
It is a program loader and a series of hardware interface libraries that
you may or may not care to use.
It's actually simpler as an environment than - say - the Raspberry PI
PICO microcontroller.
On 7/8/2025 2:56 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:33:06 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Ironic, isn’t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS, supposedly an
improvement on the older product, never did.
You cannot do much with only 640K RAM in IBM/PC and compatibles. Once
PCs got more memory, we got Double DOS and DesqView!!
On Wed, 8/6/2025 1:55 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-06 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
That's one of the problems with documentation of operations, every article written
insists on discussions of minutia. But not the goofy info we are after.
And while the year 1998 suggests Pentium II, the equipment design likely predates
delivery of it, by quite a bit. The processor in it, could be from before Pentium II.
Since their floppies were produced in relatively recent times, they haven't lost control of things. The fact the floppy plants for those have all shut down,
is not a problem. As long as they bought a box of 50 floppies at the time :-) At
one time, 3.5" were so common, we had a polishing plant in town making the 3.5" ones, and at work, we were actually buying our floppies for Macs, from that plant, and not from elsewhere. I suppose it was the novelty that made us do it :-)
Surprisingly, the floppies were good quality, and there was no reason to switch.
My box of fifty, was bought from the local plant too. Their products were sold
in local computer stores (if the polishing plant had not existed, some other brand would have been purchased instead).
I still have a floppy drive... but it is a USB floppy drive which allows sharing a floppy with whatever computer "needs it". It's a good thing
I bought that before it was too late. None of the current batch of motherboards have floppy controllers.
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
And while the year 1998 suggests Pentium II, the equipment design likely predates
delivery of it, by quite a bit. The processor in it, could be from before Pentium II.
In the 1990ies, electronic switchboxes ("ESTW") used in Germany
employed 8086 and 80186 CPUs because those were simple enough to have
their correctness proven.
Don't expect current hardware in safety relevant IT systems, ever.
If that thing about the metro in san francisco is true (which I
doubt), I woud love to have known that five years ago when everybody
in Germany was still making fun of Deutsche Bahn using Floppies to
bring seat reservation data into the actual train sets. In the mean
time they have switched to Wifi and Cellular, wisely leaving out the
entire USB stick and memory card era.
I still have a floppy drive... but it is a USB floppy drive which allows
sharing a floppy with whatever computer "needs it". It's a good thing
I bought that before it was too late. None of the current batch of
motherboards have floppy controllers.
A USB floppy drive wouldnt need a floppy controller.
On 7/8/2025 3:55 pm, c186282 wrote:
It'd be nice to have a Linux/Unix proxy for
olde-tyme DOS - tiny, minimal. Don't THINK
it can happen alas. -IX has always been
kind of 'big'.
Minix!! ;)
There is an RPi 5 released, which would run Windows 11. But at
the price point, for a bit more money you could acquire something
that works a bit smoother. Some of the refurb machines might have
more horsepower.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/01/new-120-16gb-raspberry-pi-5-is-for-the-people-who-use-it-like-an-everyday-pc/
On 2025-08-06 22:09, Paul wrote:[...]
I still have a floppy drive... but it is a USB floppy drive which allows sharing a floppy with whatever computer "needs it". It's a good thing
I bought that before it was too late. None of the current batch of motherboards have floppy controllers.
Ah... I don't have that, but I do have a computer that works and has a
floppy drive.
On 7/08/2025 9:06 pm, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 7/8/2025 2:56 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:33:06 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Ironic, isn’t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS, supposedly an >>> improvement on the older product, never did.
You cannot do much with only 640K RAM in IBM/PC and compatibles. Once
PCs got more memory, we got Double DOS and DesqView!!
Might this be a case of "If people have 1GB of RAM, WE (the programmers) might as well make use of it (and not worry to much about being 'tidy'
with 'our' programming)??
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 19:06:23 +0800
"Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
You cannot do much with only 640K RAM in IBM/PC and compatibles. Once
PCs got more memory, we got Double DOS and DesqView!!
You can do plenty, depending on what it is you're trying to do. 640 KB
won't get you far in, say, 3D modeling/rendering, but you could fit a
whole novella in Markdown syntax in that space without even breaking it
up into chapters.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 22:18:56 +1000
Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
Might this be a case of "If people have 1GB of RAM, WE (the
programmers) might as well make use of it (and not worry to much
about being 'tidy' with 'our' programming)??
And yes, definitely this. MS-DOS EDIT is "only" ~192 KB, and that's
because it's really QBASIC with the BASIC parts stowed in the cupboard.
A dedicated text editor in the DOS days was generally far less (I've
got a couple bare-bones ones that fit in 4-8 KB, somewhere.) Compare
that to even a lightweight modern text editor like Programmer's
Notepad, which is ~3 MB on disk and has a working set of like 28 MB
with nothing open...!
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-06 22:09, Paul wrote:[...]
I still have a floppy drive... but it is a USB floppy drive which allows >>> sharing a floppy with whatever computer "needs it". It's a good thing
I bought that before it was too late. None of the current batch of
motherboards have floppy controllers.
Ah... I don't have that, but I do have a computer that works and has a
floppy drive.
I have a (XP) *laptop* with *two* 3.5" diskette drives. One slide-in/ slide-out internal one (can be swapped with the DVD drive (read-only))
and an external one connected to the parallel port.
And of course loads of diskettes with stuff I probably will never use/ look_at! :-)
I don't know about those, but "real" floppy drives did not have an
actual controller, rather an interface. Nothing smart. The CPU had to
time all operations itself. Notice when the hole marking start of track passes, read, count sectors, time the write operation... everything.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 21:38:42 +0200
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
And yes, definitely this. MS-DOS EDIT is "only" ~192 KB, and that's
because it's really QBASIC with the BASIC parts stowed in the
cupboard. A dedicated text editor in the DOS days was generally far
less (I've got a couple bare-bones ones that fit in 4-8 KB,
somewhere.) Compare
ted.com was less than 3 KiB :-)
At lest the original version, they improved it on a later version and
got somewhat bigger. It was published as assembler example in PC
Magazine, I think it was. I typed it all by hand, no way I could
connect by modem across the pond to download it!
Ah yeah, that was one of 'em. Snappy enough even on an XT, as I recall,
but it's been a hot minute since I used it.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 06:56:14 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Ironic, isn’t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS, supposedly
an improvement on the older product, never did.
By the time MS-DOS had established itself as the de facto standard for
the office, the model of small-business computing based around multiple
dumb terminals connected to a single computer was on the wane; it stuck around in larger enterprise for another 10-15 years and in call centers
for longer, but general office computing was already moving towards
either sharing access to a single machine (if demand was low) or just
giving people or departments their own dedicated machines. Wouldn't
truly take off 'til hardware costs made small-office networking
affordable and the software evolved to match, but nobody needed time-
shared DOS like they needed MP/M.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:40:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't know about those, but "real" floppy drives did not have an
actual controller, rather an interface. Nothing smart. The CPU had to
time all operations itself. Notice when the hole marking start of track
passes, read, count sectors, time the write operation... everything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Digital_FD1771
I don't know what you consider a 'real' floppy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Woz_Machine#History
almost all contemporary CP/M machines and others used some variant of the
WD chip. It could be programmed with a number of options so many
incompatible formats sprung up. I had a utility that could read most of
them except the hard sector schemes.
Years later Woz admitted he more or less didn't have a clue what he was
doing but eventually got it to work. In the best Apple tradition nothing
but an Apple could read the floppies.
he only problem with a Pi PICO for a simple industrial app is that it
doesn't drive a screen directly. You could probably bit twiddle a VGA
screen though
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
[...]
There is an RPi 5 released, which would run Windows 11. But at the
price point, for a bit more money you could acquire something that
works a bit smoother. Some of the refurb machines might have more
horsepower.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/01/new-120-16gb-raspberry-pi-5-is- for-the-people-who-use-it-like-an-everyday-pc/
If I understand the article correctly, 'you could acquire something
that works a bit smoother', for a bit *less* money. For the $120 you get
only the board. Add case, power supply and mass storage and you probably easily get into the price range of NUC-like Mini-PCs, i.e. some $200.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-06 22:09, Paul wrote:[...]
I still have a floppy drive... but it is a USB floppy drive which allows >>> sharing a floppy with whatever computer "needs it". It's a good thing
I bought that before it was too late. None of the current batch of
motherboards have floppy controllers.
Ah... I don't have that, but I do have a computer that works and has a
floppy drive.
I have a (XP) *laptop* with *two* 3.5" diskette drives. One slide-in/ slide-out internal one (can be swapped with the DVD drive (read-only))
and an external one connected to the parallel port.
And of course loads of diskettes with stuff I probably will never use/ look_at! :-)
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 08:59:08 -0700, John Ames wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 06:56:14 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Ironic, isn’t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS, supposedly
an improvement on the older product, never did.
By the time MS-DOS had established itself as the de facto standard for
the office, the model of small-business computing based around multiple
dumb terminals connected to a single computer was on the wane; it stuck
around in larger enterprise for another 10-15 years and in call centers
for longer, but general office computing was already moving towards
either sharing access to a single machine (if demand was low) or just
giving people or departments their own dedicated machines. Wouldn't
truly take off 'til hardware costs made small-office networking
affordable and the software evolved to match, but nobody needed time-
shared DOS like they needed MP/M.
Until Windows for Workgroups (3.11) Microsoft never considered people
might want to network computers. I worked on a project that used an AT supervising a number of XTs that were controlling environmental test
chambers but the network was proprietary.
For plain vanilla 3.1 you needed the third party Trumpet Winsock to get a TCP/IP stack. When MS finally got around to it they based WSA on BSD
Sockets with their own weird little touches that exist to this day.
It's actually simpler as an environment than - say - the Raspberry PI
PICO microcontroller.
I want to one day back up my floppies to hard disk, to see what is
there.
On 7/8/2025 2:56 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:33:06 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Ironic, isn’t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS, supposedly
an improvement on the older product, never did.
You cannot do much with only 640K RAM in IBM/PC and compatibles.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 19:06:23 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 7/8/2025 2:56 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:33:06 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Ironic, isn’t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS, supposedly
an improvement on the older product, never did.
You cannot do much with only 640K RAM in IBM/PC and compatibles.
I wonder why not. Remember, 1970s-vintage minicomputers from DEC and other vendors were running multiuser, multitasking systems in maybe only a few hundred K of RAM
The only problem with a Pi PICO for a simple industrial app is that it doesn't drive a screen directly
On 07/08/2025 07:33, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
The plain-simple DOS can be very efficient! But by default, it canNOT
multi-tasking!
That is a huge advantage in many industrial applications
On 8/8/2025 1:45 am, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/7/25 04:06, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Minix!! ;)
FreeDOS and a number of stripped down GNU/Linux Core programs.
meant for embedding are available.
Just from a few glances at Distrowatch.com.
Never written an OS myself. I dunno how far you can go with 640K memory ...
RTKernel - Real-Time Multitasking System for DOS <http://www.on-time.com/rtkernel-dos.htm>
On 8/8/2025 6:03 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Never written an OS myself. I dunno how far you can go with 640K
memory ...
RTKernel - Real-Time Multitasking System for DOS
<http://www.on-time.com/rtkernel-dos.htm>
Digital made an attempt.
Minix is the origin of Linux! ;)
The Birth of Linux: A Journey from Minix to the Open-Source Revolution -
DEV Community <https://dev.to/romanburdiuzha/the-birth-of-linux-a-journey-from-minix- to-the-open-source-revolution-3meo>
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 19:06:23 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 7/8/2025 2:56 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:33:06 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Ironic, isn?t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS, supposedly
an improvement on the older product, never did.
You cannot do much with only 640K RAM in IBM/PC and compatibles.
I wonder why not. Remember, 1970s-vintage minicomputers from DEC and other vendors were running multiuser, multitasking systems in maybe only a few hundred K of RAM.
On 8/8/2025 1:45 am, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/7/25 04:06, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Minix!! ;)
FreeDOS and a number of stripped down GNU/Linux Core programs.
meant for embedding are available.
Just from a few glances at Distrowatch.com.
Never written an OS myself. I dunno how far you can go with 640K memory ...
RTKernel - Real-Time Multitasking System for DOS <http://www.on-time.com/rtkernel-dos.htm>
Minix was unobtainable.
It was in one of the courses I did at uni. The book had the source code printed, but there was no way to get it for a student here.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 08:59:08 -0700, John Ames wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 06:56:14 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Ironic, isn’t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS, supposedly
an improvement on the older product, never did.
By the time MS-DOS had established itself as the de facto standard for
the office, the model of small-business computing based around multiple
dumb terminals connected to a single computer was on the wane; it stuck
around in larger enterprise for another 10-15 years and in call centers
for longer, but general office computing was already moving towards
either sharing access to a single machine (if demand was low) or just
giving people or departments their own dedicated machines. Wouldn't
truly take off 'til hardware costs made small-office networking
affordable and the software evolved to match, but nobody needed time-
shared DOS like they needed MP/M.
Until Windows for Workgroups (3.11) Microsoft never considered people
might want to network computers. I worked on a project that used an AT supervising a number of XTs that were controlling environmental test
chambers but the network was proprietary.
For plain vanilla 3.1 you needed the third party Trumpet Winsock to get a TCP/IP stack. When MS finally got around to it they based WSA on BSD
Sockets with their own weird little touches that exist to this day.
On 8/8/2025 1:45 am, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/7/25 04:06, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Minix!! ;)
FreeDOS and a number of stripped down GNU/Linux Core programs.
meant for embedding are available.
Just from a few glances at Distrowatch.com.
Never written an OS myself. I dunno how far you can go with 640K memory ...
RTKernel - Real-Time Multitasking System for DOS <http://www.on-time.com/rtkernel-dos.htm>
On 7 Aug 2025 18:22:18 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:for-the-people-who-use-it-like-an-everyday-pc/
[...]
There is an RPi 5 released, which would run Windows 11. But at the
price point, for a bit more money you could acquire something that
works a bit smoother. Some of the refurb machines might have more
horsepower.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/01/new-120-16gb-raspberry-pi-5-is-
If I understand the article correctly, 'you could acquire something
that works a bit smoother', for a bit *less* money. For the $120 you get
only the board. Add case, power supply and mass storage and you probably
easily get into the price range of NUC-like Mini-PCs, i.e. some $200.
amazon.com/dp/B0CRSNCJ6Y
The 8GB Canakit is $160.
Raspberry Pi OS, a Debian derivative, comes with Chromium and Firefox and
can run quite a few applications. However using it as a everyday PC is missing the point. Conversely if you expect to grab a few Dupont wires and add a I2C temperature/humidity/barometer module and a couple of PWM controlled servos to your NUC mini-PC, good luck. Your best be would be to hang a Raspberry Pi Pico W off the USB port and program it separately.
On 8/8/2025 6:43 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Minix was unobtainable.
It was in one of the courses I did at uni. The book had the source code
printed, but there was no way to get it for a student here.
No diskette nor CD-ROM? I didn't buy the book, I dunno what happened!
Back then there was no GitHub!
GitHub - Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix: Official MINIX
sources - Automatically replicated from gerrit.minix3.org <https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix>
github minix - Google Search
<https://www.google.com/search?q=github+minix>
On 2025-08-08 17:40, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 8/8/2025 6:43 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Minix was unobtainable.
It was in one of the courses I did at uni. The book had the source code
printed, but there was no way to get it for a student here.
No diskette nor CD-ROM? I didn't buy the book, I dunno what happened!
Much later I learnt that the next edition of the book had a cd.
Back then there was no GitHub!
A modem call across the pond would be prohibitive back then.
At least three other stacks come to mind. PC NFS from Sun, FTP TCP by
ftp software and there was one other really lightweight NFS that ran in
about 40K RAM
These are all DOS capable, never mind windows ...
But MS was losing out to Netware as well as all these other stacks so
they banged TCP/IP and netbeui onto Windows for Workgroups, as far as I
can remember. For NetBios file sharing purposes.
Internet was a niche thing back then
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:37:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
At least three other stacks come to mind. PC NFS from Sun, FTP TCP by
ftp software and there was one other really lightweight NFS that ran in
about 40K RAM
These are all DOS capable, never mind windows ...
But MS was losing out to Netware as well as all these other stacks so
they banged TCP/IP and netbeui onto Windows for Workgroups, as far as I
can remember. For NetBios file sharing purposes.
Internet was a niche thing back then
Not all that niche. My first Windows box was a Compaq Concerto, which was interesting in its own right. So close but Compaq killed it after a short while. I only had one because I had a friend that worked in a computer / plumbing supply firm. I was looking for a laptop and she said "Come into
the back room and see what just came in!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Concerto
My ISP provided a Unix shell account and a diskette with Trumpet Winsock, TIA, and iirc a very early Netscape, and wished me good luck.
You could argue it was still a niche thing but that was the era when
people were using the AOL CDs that flooded their mailboxes as drinks coasters. I'd previously used Delphi, which was just starting to bridge
out into the internet from being mostly a message board.
You *could* do a crazily fault-tolerant RTOS for, say, a CNC rig
making parts according to a fixed design N hours a day, but do you
really *need* to?
Never written an OS myself. I dunno how far you can go with 640K memory
...
Internet was a niche thing back then
Minix is the origin of Linux! ;)
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 10:59:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The only problem with a Pi PICO for a simple industrial app is that it
doesn't drive a screen directly
Yes it can <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnDjgHQR_io>.
On 8/8/2025 6:43 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Minix was unobtainable.
It was in one of the courses I did at uni. The book had the source code
printed, but there was no way to get it for a student here.
No diskette nor CD-ROM? I didn't buy the book, I dunno what happened!
Back then there was no GitHub!
GitHub - Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix: Official MINIX
sources - Automatically replicated from gerrit.minix3.org <https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix>
github minix - Google Search
<https://www.google.com/search?q=github+minix>
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:19:38 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
You *could* do a crazily fault-tolerant RTOS for, say, a CNC rig
making parts according to a fixed design N hours a day, but do you
really *need* to?
I can imagine, for safety reasons, yes.
Yeah, could've phrased that to better reflect my meaning: what is it
that makes you think a multitasking RTOS is better for the purpose of
running a simple fixed-function industrial device than a dead-simple single-tasking OS, aside from your assessment that the one is "more
advanced" than the other?
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:47:15 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Never written an OS myself. I dunno how far you can go with 640K memory
...
Early Unix made do with less than that.
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:37:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Internet was a niche thing back then
Microsoft may have considered it so, but anybody connected to it (e.g. Universities, research institutions, certain forward-looking companies,
my employer) knew it was the best thing since sliced bread.
Remember Bill Gates brought out that book “The Way Ahead”, for which he got some obscene advance before he’d even written a word? That came out
in 1995, and didn’t even talk about the Internet -- except in a hastily- tacked-on afterword, inserted at just about the last minute before publication.
On 08/08/2025 19:53, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-08 17:40, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:Did it for hours at a time
On 8/8/2025 6:43 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Minix was unobtainable.
It was in one of the courses I did at uni. The book had the source
code printed, but there was no way to get it for a student here.
No diskette nor CD-ROM? I didn't buy the book, I dunno what happened!
Much later I learnt that the next edition of the book had a cd.
Back then there was no GitHub!
A modem call across the pond would be prohibitive back then.
Does anyone make serial terminals anymore ? The Pico can surely be
set up create a compatible serial port even if it's just
old-fashioned bit-banging.
The next step were V90 modems and a phone number that did not charge by
the minute. It took perhaps a decade before we got ADSL.
On 2025-08-08, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 8/8/2025 6:43 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Minix was unobtainable.
It was in one of the courses I did at uni. The book had the source code
printed, but there was no way to get it for a student here.
No diskette nor CD-ROM? I didn't buy the book, I dunno what happened!
Back then there was no GitHub!
Github surely is a footnote in this all. What'd matter would be internet access and some service hosting the code. Be it web, gopher, ftp or
something else.
GitHub - Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix: Official MINIX
sources - Automatically replicated from gerrit.minix3.org
<https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix>
github minix - Google Search
<https://www.google.com/search?q=github+minix>
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:02:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The next step were V90 modems and a phone number that did not charge by
the minute. It took perhaps a decade before we got ADSL.
At one point in the early '90s when I used Delphi you could use a local
toll free number to tie into the 2400 baud backbone. High tech. AOL used
the same scheme except their app or whatever you want to call it was a lot fancier than Delphi's. People would connect, get a message that AOL was updating, and take the dog for a long walk.
On 8/8/25 8:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:02:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The next step were V90 modems and a phone number that did not charge
by the minute. It took perhaps a decade before we got ADSL.
At one point in the early '90s when I used Delphi you could use a local
toll free number to tie into the 2400 baud backbone. High tech. AOL
used the same scheme except their app or whatever you want to call it
was a lot fancier than Delphi's. People would connect, get a message
that AOL was updating, and take the dog for a long walk.
There were local numbers for BBS back in the 300/1200 baud days. Alas
the range was mostly like two or three counties.
Toll-free came a bit later - but it meant the sites HAD to earn at
least a little profit somehow.
300 baud was fun - you could actually read the incoming text in real
time :-)
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:23:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:37:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Internet was a niche thing back then
Microsoft may have considered it so, but anybody connected to it (e.g.
Universities, research institutions, certain forward-looking companies,
my employer) knew it was the best thing since sliced bread.
Remember Bill Gates brought out that book “The Way Ahead”, for which he >> got some obscene advance before he’d even written a word? That came out
in 1995, and didn’t even talk about the Internet -- except in a hastily- >> tacked-on afterword, inserted at just about the last minute before
publication.
The irony is in the early days of MSDN while you got a bunch of CDs with various Windows versions, SDKs, the CompuServe forum was where the real action was, sort of an early Experts-Exchage.
We had an IT moron that tried to implement a policy to prevent
questionable URLS from being accessed. One casualty of his sophisticated filter was 'expert S-EX change'.
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:19:38 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
You *could* do a crazily fault-tolerant RTOS for, say, a CNC rig
making parts according to a fixed design N hours a day, but do you
really *need* to?
I can imagine, for safety reasons, yes.
Yeah, could've phrased that to better reflect my meaning: what is it
that makes you think a multitasking RTOS is better for the purpose of
running a simple fixed-function industrial device than a dead-simple single-tasking OS, aside from your assessment that the one is "more
advanced" than the other?
On 2025-08-08, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:19:38 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
You *could* do a crazily fault-tolerant RTOS for, say, a CNC rig
making parts according to a fixed design N hours a day, but do you
really *need* to?
I can imagine, for safety reasons, yes.
Yeah, could've phrased that to better reflect my meaning: what is it
that makes you think a multitasking RTOS is better for the purpose of
running a simple fixed-function industrial device than a dead-simple
single-tasking OS, aside from your assessment that the one is "more
advanced" than the other?
Well, in this case, one benefit I see is being real-time. Unless the rig
does all the critical timing-sensitive operations?
On 8/8/25 2:49 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 10:59:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The only problem with a Pi PICO for a simple industrial app is that it
doesn't drive a screen directly
Yes it can <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnDjgHQR_io>.
But that's a cheat - using the Demo Board which
has all the Pi peripherial chips on it :-)
Does anyone make serial terminals anymore ? The Pico
can surely be set up create a compatible serial port
even if it's just old-fashioned bit-banging.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 19:06:23 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 7/8/2025 2:56 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:33:06 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Ironic, isn’t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS, supposedly
an improvement on the older product, never did.
You cannot do much with only 640K RAM in IBM/PC and compatibles.
I wonder why not. Remember, 1970s-vintage minicomputers from DEC and other vendors were running multiuser, multitasking systems in maybe only a few hundred K of RAM.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 08:07:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/08/2025 07:33, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
The plain-simple DOS can be very efficient! But by default, it canNOT
multi-tasking!
That is a huge advantage in many industrial applications
I would like to see examples of that. After all, even the Apollo Guidance Computer, that brought the Lunar Modules safely down to their landings on
the Moon and took them back to the Command/Service Module for the return
to Earth, ran a real-time multitasking operating system, with built-in safeguards to protect against rogue tasks hogging more resources than they were supposed to. Remember, these things were in operation in the latter 1960s!
We don’t want some supposedly “modern” (for its time) piece of 1980s technology to be considered a step backwards, do we?
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:58:39 -0400, c186282 wrote:+1.
Does anyone make serial terminals anymore ? The Pico can surely be
set up create a compatible serial port even if it's just
old-fashioned bit-banging.
https://datasheets.raspberrypi.com/pico/Pico-R3-A4-Pinout.pdf
Note pins 1 & 2.
https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/microcontrollers/debug-
probe.html
You can make a debug probe using another Pico but I haven't bothered. So
far I've gotten by with print() statements. In CMakeLists.txt
pico_enable_stdio_usb(foobar 1)
pico_enable_stdio_uart(foobar 0)
uses the USB connection rather than the uart and the print statements show
up in the VS Code serial terminal. The board mounts as /dev/ttyACM0.
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:20:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:47:15 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Never written an OS myself. I dunno how far you can go with 640K memory
...
Early Unix made do with less than that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_30
You could argue DOS/360 wasn't much of an OS but it got along with 32k of real live hand-knitted core.
Le 08-08-2025, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 19:06:23 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 7/8/2025 2:56 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:33:06 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Ironic, isn’t it, that its CP/M predecessor moved on to multiuser/
multitasking operation (MP/M, Concurrent CP/M), but MS-DOS,
supposedly an improvement on the older product, never did.
You cannot do much with only 640K RAM in IBM/PC and compatibles.
I wonder why not. Remember, 1970s-vintage minicomputers from DEC and
other vendors were running multiuser, multitasking systems in maybe
only a few hundred K of RAM.
The expectation of today's computers is not the same as the 70's
computers. Today, one expect to be able to display images, to see
videos, to read formatted text and to hear music. For example.
Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/8/2025 1:45 am, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/7/25 04:06, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Minix!! ;)
FreeDOS and a number of stripped down GNU/Linux Core programs.
meant for embedding are available.
Just from a few glances at Distrowatch.com.
Never written an OS myself. I dunno how far you can go with 640K memory ...
See my recent (today) response to Lawrence' post. 640KB memory is more
than enough, actually ten times too much! :-)
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 22:58:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/8/25 8:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:02:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The next step were V90 modems and a phone number that did not charge
by the minute. It took perhaps a decade before we got ADSL.
At one point in the early '90s when I used Delphi you could use a local
toll free number to tie into the 2400 baud backbone. High tech. AOL
used the same scheme except their app or whatever you want to call it
was a lot fancier than Delphi's. People would connect, get a message
that AOL was updating, and take the dog for a long walk.
There were local numbers for BBS back in the 300/1200 baud days. Alas
the range was mostly like two or three counties.
Toll-free came a bit later - but it meant the sites HAD to earn at
least a little profit somehow.
300 baud was fun - you could actually read the incoming text in real
time :-)
That was my first exposure to BBSs via a 300 baud acoustic coupler. iirc
it was a toll call from NH to the BBS in the North Shore (MA). The box in question was a no-name PC clone with a turbo switch on the front panel if
you wanted to live dangerously. Like a certain troll in this neighborhood running with an open case wasn't uncommon. The clone makers were winging
it with the cooling capacity when they overclocked.
useful programs.
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:02:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The next step were V90 modems and a phone number that did not charge by
the minute. It took perhaps a decade before we got ADSL.
At one point in the early '90s when I used Delphi you could use a local
toll free number to tie into the 2400 baud backbone. High tech. AOL used
the same scheme except their app or whatever you want to call it was a lot fancier than Delphi's. People would connect, get a message that AOL was updating, and take the dog for a long walk.
At least three other stacks come to mind. PC NFS from Sun, FTP TCP by
ftp software and there was one other really lightweight NFS that ran in
about 40K RAM
These are all DOS capable, never mind windows ...
But MS was losing out to Netware as well as all these other stacks so
they banged TCP/IP and netbeui onto Windows for Workgroups, as far as I
can remember. For NetBios file sharing purposes.
Internet was a niche thing back then
The expectation of today's computers is not the same as the 70's
computers. Today, one expect to be able to display images, to see
videos, to read formatted text and to hear music. For example.
Yes, I did love to hear the dulcet strains playing from my Pi-controlled sprinkler controller.
On 09/08/2025 00:30, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-08, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:19:38 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
You *could* do a crazily fault-tolerant RTOS for, say, a CNC rig
making parts according to a fixed design N hours a day, but do you
really *need* to?
I can imagine, for safety reasons, yes.
Yeah, could've phrased that to better reflect my meaning: what is it
that makes you think a multitasking RTOS is better for the purpose of
running a simple fixed-function industrial device than a dead-simple
single-tasking OS, aside from your assessment that the one is "more
advanced" than the other?
Well, in this case, one benefit I see is being real-time. Unless the rig
does all the critical timing-sensitive operations?
Real time is always a bit of a piece of string.
In any case you need to respond to interrupts and do some processing,
even if that process is no more than to set a flag to resume a
particular task. And even on pre-emptive schedulers that may need to
wait for a clock tick.
Which is why you do the really time critical shit under interrupt anyway.
On 09/08/2025 11:38, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
The purpose of an OS is to run
useful programs.
I am not sure you need an OS to do that.
All you need is a boot loader of some sort. And that could be no more
than the Z80s hardware feature than on rest it reads address 0000H and executes the instruction it finds there....
A real time OS only really needs to be able to operate a multi tasking scheduler.
In essence the operating system seems to provides stuff that is
commonly required enough that people do not want to write it fresh every time.
You could almost certainly have a fully functional CPM-like computer
running on a Pi Pico.
On most machines I saw, the turbo button "on" actually let the machine
run at its normal design speed. When "off", it slowed the machine significantly, so that games and some apps would behave as if running in
the original IBM PC. No overclocking involved.
OTOH if a simple round robin foreground scheduler works why on earth not
use it?
I just wrote some pico code that sits in a loop waiting for a transition
on a pin, then waits till it goes back, checks the time it was high,
does some simple stuff to set some outputs, and then goes back to
waiting. I could have done it under interrupts, but since that is all
the CPU has to do, it seemed a bit excessive.
On 08/08/2025 22:49, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:19:38 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
You *could* do a crazily fault-tolerant RTOS for, say, a CNC rig
making parts according to a fixed design N hours a day, but do you
really *need* to?
I can imagine, for safety reasons, yes.
Yeah, could've phrased that to better reflect my meaning: what is it
that makes you think a multitasking RTOS is better for the purpose of
running a simple fixed-function industrial device than a dead-simple
single-tasking OS, aside from your assessment that the one is "more
advanced" than the other?
Having done both, there comes a point where invisible task switching
between an application not built for multitasking and a background
daemon that is, becomes easier if you build some interrupt drive
preemptive multitasking rather than try and pussyfoot around modifying a
main app you don't have source code access to...
OTOH if a simple round robin foreground scheduler works why on earth not
use it?
I just wrote some pico code that sits in a loop waiting for a transition
on a pin, then waits till it goes back, checks the time it was high,
does some simple stuff to set some outputs, and then goes back to
waiting. I could have done it under interrupts, but since that is all
the CPU has to do, it seemed a bit excessive.
No religion. Juts cost benefit analysis. Which gets you there with
minimal effort
The purpose of an OS is to run useful programs.
Le 08-08-2025, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 08:07:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/08/2025 07:33, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
The plain-simple DOS can be very efficient! But by default, it
canNOT multi-tasking!
That is a huge advantage in many industrial applications
I would like to see examples of that. After all, even the Apollo
Guidance Computer, that brought the Lunar Modules safely down to
their landings on the Moon and took them back to the
Command/Service Module for the return to Earth, ran a real-time
multitasking operating system, with built-in safeguards to protect
against rogue tasks hogging more resources than they were supposed
to. Remember, these things were in operation in the latter 1960s!
You provide the advantage yourself and you can't see it? Read again
your sentence. They had to put efforts to develop safeguards. With a mono-task system, they wouldn't have to. So like it or not, it's an
exemple of an advantage.
On 09/08/2025 11:38, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> The purpose of an OS is to run
useful programs.Mmm. Interesting philosophical question.
I am not sure you need an OS to do that.
All you need is a boot loader of some sort. And that could be no more
than the Z80s hardware feature than on rest it reads address 0000H and executes the instruction it finds there....
Le 08-08-2025, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 19:06:23 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
You cannot do much with only 640K RAM in IBM/PC and compatibles.
I wonder why not. Remember, 1970s-vintage minicomputers from DEC and
other vendors were running multiuser, multitasking systems in maybe
only a few hundred K of RAM.
The expectation of today's computers is not the same as the 70's
computers. Today, one expect to be able to display images, to see
videos, to read formatted text and to hear music. For example.
On most machines I saw, the turbo button "on" actually let the machine
run at its normal design speed. When "off", it slowed the machine significantly, so that games and some apps would behave as if running in
the original IBM PC. No overclocking involved.
On 09 Aug 2025 10:28:46 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
The expectation of today's computers is not the same as the 70's
computers. Today, one expect to be able to display images, to see
videos, to read formatted text and to hear music. For example.
And that's the trivial stuff. With the mid-'60s System 360/30 doing FFTs required writing partial products to tape, rewinding, and taking another pass. In the '80s neural networks fizzled more from lack of computing
power than the concept. It was like early aircraft experiments waiting for
a lightweight engine.
Now we have generative AI that is an endless sink of power.
We're being held hostage, by video card manufacturers avoiding the
placement of more generous amounts of RAM on expensive video cards.
Real time does not mean instant response, but response under a
predefined time.
Le 09-08-2025, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
In essence the operating system seems to provides stuff that is
commonly required enough that people do not want to write it fresh every
time.
For a mono task system, yes, exactly. For a multi task system, no, it's
only a part of its requirements.
hat leads to the question of whether Forth is an OS in some cases. Gforth isn't but I built Z-80 Forth systems where the boot vector went directly
to the Forth interpreter.
Is Mbed a OS? There was some consternation when Arm announced its end and people scrambled to replace it with Zephyr or FreeRTOS.
On 2025-08-09 12:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/08/2025 22:49, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:19:38 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
You *could* do a crazily fault-tolerant RTOS for, say, a CNC rig
making parts according to a fixed design N hours a day, but do you
really *need* to?
I can imagine, for safety reasons, yes.
Yeah, could've phrased that to better reflect my meaning: what is it
that makes you think a multitasking RTOS is better for the purpose of
running a simple fixed-function industrial device than a dead-simple
single-tasking OS, aside from your assessment that the one is "more
advanced" than the other?
Having done both, there comes a point where invisible task switching
between an application not built for multitasking and a background
daemon that is, becomes easier if you build some interrupt drive
preemptive multitasking rather than try and pussyfoot around modifying
a main app you don't have source code access to...
OTOH if a simple round robin foreground scheduler works why on earth
not use it?
I just wrote some pico code that sits in a loop waiting for a
transition on a pin, then waits till it goes back, checks the time it
was high, does some simple stuff to set some outputs, and then goes
back to waiting. I could have done it under interrupts, but since that
is all the CPU has to do, it seemed a bit excessive.
No religion. Juts cost benefit analysis. Which gets you there with
minimal effort
Mmm. Waiting in a loop uses more electricity than waiting for an interrupt.
On 09/08/2025 22:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Real time does not mean instant response, but response under aLike a decade?
predefined time.
I think not.
On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:06:08 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most machines I saw, the turbo button "on" actually let the machine
run at its normal design speed. When "off", it slowed the machine
significantly, so that games and some apps would behave as if running in
the original IBM PC. No overclocking involved.
You may be correct. It's been a long time.
Many apps were designed around the 55 msec 'tick' that was generated when
the 8253 PIT rolled over at 64K. A fun project was twiddling with the PIT
to generate, say, a 5 msec interrupt grabbing the interrupt for your nefarious purposes, but keeping track so the original ISR would still run
at 55 msec.
I sort of miss the old boxes where you could mess around with the
hardware. I build a EPROM programmer that plugged into the parallel
printer port. It had plenty of I/O for bit banging.
On 2025-08-10 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/08/2025 22:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Real time does not mean instant response, but response under aLike a decade?
predefined time.
I think not.
No, milliseconds.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-10 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/08/2025 22:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Real time does not mean instant response, but response under aLike a decade?
predefined time.
I think not.
No, milliseconds.
The Natural Philosopher is clearly being flippant.
Your point is the right one, response within a predefined time. And
that predefined time can range from microseconds (like in my 'real
time' time) all the way up to seconds and more. For example ('administrative') transaction systems were called real time systems, as opposed to batch processing systems.
On 2025-08-10 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/08/2025 22:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Real time does not mean instant response, but response under aLike a decade?
predefined time.
I think not.
No, milliseconds.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-10 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/08/2025 22:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Real time does not mean instant response, but response under aLike a decade?
predefined time.
I think not.
No, milliseconds.
The Natural Philosopher is clearly being flippant.
Your point is the right one, response within a predefined time. And
that predefined time can range from microseconds (like in my 'real
time' time) all the way up to seconds and more. For example ('administrative') transaction systems were called real time systems, as opposed to batch processing systems.
So, for example *both* HP's RTE (Real Time Executive) systems - with microsecond/millisecond response times - *and* HP 3000 MPE (Multi
Programming Executive) systems - with response times of one or a few
seconds - were/are real time systems.
On 2025-08-10 14:42, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-10 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/08/2025 22:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Real time does not mean instant response, but response under aLike a decade?
predefined time.
I think not.
No, milliseconds.
The Natural Philosopher is clearly being flippant.
Your point is the right one, response within a predefined time. And
that predefined time can range from microseconds (like in my 'real
time' time) all the way up to seconds and more. For example ('administrative') transaction systems were called real time systems, as opposed to batch processing systems.
So, for example *both* HP's RTE (Real Time Executive) systems - with microsecond/millisecond response times - *and* HP 3000 MPE (Multi Programming Executive) systems - with response times of one or a few seconds - were/are real time systems.
I worked with the Lucent Switch 5ESS, running UNIX-RTR (UNIX Real-Time-Reliable). That was the definition of a real time OS they
used, that it would respond within a given interval. But other tasks,
like printing a report, did not run in "real time" and took long,
sometimes more, some time less.
On 09 Aug 2025 10:28:46 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
The expectation of today's computers is not the same as the 70's
computers. Today, one expect to be able to display images, to see
videos, to read formatted text and to hear music. For example.
And that's the trivial stuff. With the mid-'60s System 360/30 doing FFTs required writing partial products to tape, rewinding, and taking another pass. In the '80s neural networks fizzled more from lack of computing
power than the concept. It was like early aircraft experiments waiting for
a lightweight engine.
Now we have generative AI that is an endless sink of power.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-10 14:42, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-10 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/08/2025 22:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Real time does not mean instant response, but response under aLike a decade?
predefined time.
I think not.
No, milliseconds.
The Natural Philosopher is clearly being flippant.
Your point is the right one, response within a predefined time. And
that predefined time can range from microseconds (like in my 'real
time' time) all the way up to seconds and more. For example
('administrative') transaction systems were called real time systems, as >>> opposed to batch processing systems.
So, for example *both* HP's RTE (Real Time Executive) systems - with >>> microsecond/millisecond response times - *and* HP 3000 MPE (Multi
Programming Executive) systems - with response times of one or a few
seconds - were/are real time systems.
I worked with the Lucent Switch 5ESS, running UNIX-RTR (UNIX
Real-Time-Reliable). That was the definition of a real time OS they
used, that it would respond within a given interval. But other tasks,
like printing a report, did not run in "real time" and took long,
sometimes more, some time less.
<aside>
When searching some references for HP's RTE, I found that there is a simulator for the HP 21xx/1000 computers (for Windows, Linux, FreeBSD,
and macOS) and that the RTE software is still available for
non-commercial use by private individuals ('HP Software Collection').
The current release of the simulator is as recent as April, 2022, some four decades after the hardware/software went out of production.
Amazing! (The HP 3000 simulator is even as recent as November, 2024.)
The simulator also simulates a lot of hardware, including some
interfaces ('ports').
Fond memories!
'Hewlett-Packard 21xx/1000 and 3000 Simulators' <https://simh.trailing-edge.com/hp/>
</aside>
On 9 Aug 2025 10:49:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
Yes, I did love to hear the dulcet strains playing from my
Pi-controlled sprinkler controller.
Did it play 'Fur Elise'? It was rumored that was what a early generation
of Windows PCs played on the internal speaker just befor the processor
burst into flames.
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20220316-computer-plays-fur-elise/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgFhNbFvl_s
On 9 Aug 2025 10:49:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
Yes, I did love to hear the dulcet strains playing from my Pi-controlled
sprinkler controller.
Did it play 'Fur Elise'? It was rumored that was what a early generation
of Windows PCs played on the internal speaker just befor the processor
burst into flames.
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20220316-computer-plays-fur-elise/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgFhNbFvl_s
On 9 Aug 2025 21:28:56 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <mfpssoFeecnU13@mid.individual.net>:
On 9 Aug 2025 10:49:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
Yes, I did love to hear the dulcet strains playing from my
Pi-controlled sprinkler controller.
Did it play 'Fur Elise'? It was rumored that was what a early
generation of Windows PCs played on the internal speaker just befor the
processor burst into flames.
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20220316-computer-plays-fur-elise/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgFhNbFvl_s
I was being facetious.
(Sprinkler controllers don't have to play music -- although if they did,
I suspect Handel would be appropriate.)
On 2025-08-09 23:58, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:06:08 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most machines I saw, the turbo button "on" actually let the machine
run at its normal design speed. When "off", it slowed the machine
significantly, so that games and some apps would behave as if running
in the original IBM PC. No overclocking involved.
You may be correct. It's been a long time.
Many apps were designed around the 55 msec 'tick' that was generated
when the 8253 PIT rolled over at 64K. A fun project was twiddling with
the PIT to generate, say, a 5 msec interrupt grabbing the interrupt for
your nefarious purposes, but keeping track so the original ISR would
still run at 55 msec.
That rings a bell, it is familiar. I did not do it, but maybe games used
it.
On 9 Aug 2025 21:28:56 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <mfpssoFeecnU13@mid.individual.net>:
On 9 Aug 2025 10:49:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
Yes, I did love to hear the dulcet strains playing from my
Pi-controlled sprinkler controller.
Did it play 'Fur Elise'? It was rumored that was what a early generation
of Windows PCs played on the internal speaker just befor the processor
burst into flames.
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20220316-computer-plays-fur-elise/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgFhNbFvl_s
I was being facetious.
(Sprinkler controllers don't have to play music -- although if they
did, I suspect Handel would be appropriate.)
Many people feel if interrupts are available they should use them and wind
up with complicated ISRs and unforeseen problems. Start with KISS and if
it can't keep up get fancy.
Quite a few of our daemons have a main loop.
The basic algorithm is "Anything happened lately I need to take care of?
No? Then I'll go off and do my housekeeping chores for a while." The
chores were designed to be incremental; do a couple of things and return rather than vacuum the whole house.
On Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:33:40 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-09 23:58, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:06:08 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most machines I saw, the turbo button "on" actually let the machine >>>> run at its normal design speed. When "off", it slowed the machine
significantly, so that games and some apps would behave as if running
in the original IBM PC. No overclocking involved.
You may be correct. It's been a long time.
Many apps were designed around the 55 msec 'tick' that was generated
when the 8253 PIT rolled over at 64K. A fun project was twiddling with
the PIT to generate, say, a 5 msec interrupt grabbing the interrupt for
your nefarious purposes, but keeping track so the original ISR would
still run at 55 msec.
That rings a bell, it is familiar. I did not do it, but maybe games used
it.
There were a lot of fun things you could do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminate-and-stay-resident_program
On 2025-08-10 21:57, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:33:40 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-09 23:58, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:06:08 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most machines I saw, the turbo button "on" actually let the machine >>>>> run at its normal design speed. When "off", it slowed the machine
significantly, so that games and some apps would behave as if running >>>>> in the original IBM PC. No overclocking involved.
You may be correct. It's been a long time.
Many apps were designed around the 55 msec 'tick' that was generated
when the 8253 PIT rolled over at 64K. A fun project was twiddling with >>>> the PIT to generate, say, a 5 msec interrupt grabbing the interrupt for >>>> your nefarious purposes, but keeping track so the original ISR would
still run at 55 msec.
That rings a bell, it is familiar. I did not do it, but maybe games used >>> it.
There were a lot of fun things you could do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminate-and-stay-resident_program
Certainly, I did that once. In Turbo Pascal :-)
I don't remember what for.
I also wrote a unit that would play the William Tell overture in
background, capturing the timer interrupt.
On 2025-08-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Many people feel if interrupts are available they should use them and
wind up with complicated ISRs and unforeseen problems. Start with KISS
and if it can't keep up get fancy.
Ah yes, another one of the entries on my list of beliefs that will
destroy the world: "If it can be done, it should be done."
On 2025-08-09 23:28, rbowman wrote:
On 9 Aug 2025 10:49:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
Yes, I did love to hear the dulcet strains playing from my
Pi-controlled sprinkler controller.
Did it play 'Fur Elise'? It was rumored that was what a early
generation of Windows PCs played on the internal speaker just befor the
processor burst into flames.
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20220316-computer-plays-fur-elise/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgFhNbFvl_s
Wow. I have never seen this.
On Sun, 10 Aug 2025 20:47:55 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Many people feel if interrupts are available they should use them and
wind up with complicated ISRs and unforeseen problems. Start with KISS
and if it can't keep up get fancy.
Ah yes, another one of the entries on my list of beliefs that will
destroy the world: "If it can be done, it should be done."
Part of the FUD around C++ was caused by books by popular authors. "It
has classes! It has polymorphism! It has inheritance!" It has other
strange and wondrous stuff! We gotta use it all, all the time!"
Then there was the period when everyone came down with lambda envy. It doesn't help that the term is associated with the Lambda Literary Awards
in the junk heap that passes for my mind.
On 2025-08-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Many people feel if interrupts are available they should use them and wind >> up with complicated ISRs and unforeseen problems. Start with KISS and if
it can't keep up get fancy.
Ah yes, another one of the entries on my list of beliefs that will
destroy the world: "If it can be done, it should be done."
On Sun, 10 Aug 2025 21:29:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-09 23:28, rbowman wrote:
On 9 Aug 2025 10:49:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
Yes, I did love to hear the dulcet strains playing from my
Pi-controlled sprinkler controller.
Did it play 'Fur Elise'? It was rumored that was what a early
generation of Windows PCs played on the internal speaker just befor the
processor burst into flames.
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20220316-computer-plays-fur-elise/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgFhNbFvl_s
Wow. I have never seen this.
https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2016/12/10/beyond-beep-boop- mastering-the-pc-speaker/
Sound effects were another fun thing. If classical music didn't float your boat you could do falling bombs, machine guns, and other effects not
exactly intended by the designers.
I worked with the Lucent Switch 5ESS, running UNIX-RTR (UNIX Real-Time-Reliable). That was the definition of a real time OS they
used, that it would respond within a given interval. But other tasks,
like printing a report, did not run in "real time" and took long,
sometimes more, some time less.
Many things fall into that category. I examine the problem and devise a hi-tech solution in my mind and then ask the fatal question, why bother?
On 8/11/25 12:40 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2025 20:47:55 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Many people feel if interrupts are available they should use them and
wind up with complicated ISRs and unforeseen problems. Start with KISS >>>> and if it can't keep up get fancy.
Ah yes, another one of the entries on my list of beliefs that will
destroy the world: "If it can be done, it should be done."
Part of the FUD around C++ was caused by books by popular authors. "It
has classes! It has polymorphism! It has inheritance!" It has other
strange and wondrous stuff! We gotta use it all, all the time!"
Still pref non-'object'. Put together your own
set of sub-functions.
Yes, I use FPC a fair bit, very 'object', but itClean simple and works, and the known issues are like riding a bike, You
seems to be so 'wasteful' so many kinds of vars
and methods and such you DON'T need, 'inherited'
all the way up the line.
Then there was the period when everyone came down with lambda envy. It
doesn't help that the term is associated with the Lambda Literary Awards
in the junk heap that passes for my mind.
If the word "lamba' is in it - I don't :-)
Yea, there are 'lamba' functions in Python now.
Just seem to obfuscate/confuse what's really
going on.
Gimme K&R ... then I'm most happy.
On 2025-08-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Many people feel if interrupts are available they should use them and wind >> up with complicated ISRs and unforeseen problems. Start with KISS and if
it can't keep up get fancy.
Ah yes, another one of the entries on my list of beliefs that will
destroy the world: "If it can be done, it should be done."
Quite a few of our daemons have a main loop.
The basic algorithm is "Anything happened lately I need to take care of?
No? Then I'll go off and do my housekeeping chores for a while." The
chores were designed to be incremental; do a couple of things and return
rather than vacuum the whole house.
I've written stuff like that. Works like a charm.
On 2025-08-10 21:57, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:33:40 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-09 23:58, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:06:08 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There were a lot of fun things you could do.Certainly, I did that once. In Turbo Pascal :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminate-and-stay-resident_program
I don't remember what for.
I also wrote a unit that would play the William Tell overture in
background, capturing the timer interrupt.
On 10/08/2025 20:49, rbowman wrote:
Many things fall into that category. I examine the problem and devise a
hi-tech solution in my mind and then ask the fatal question, why bother?
I have a pad of paper in the kitchen.
Every time I notice I am getting low on somethging I write it on the pad.
My friend yells it to Alexa.
He thinks that's frightfully smart.
On 2025-08-10, vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
On 9 Aug 2025 21:28:56 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <mfpssoFeecnU13@mid.individual.net>:
On 9 Aug 2025 10:49:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
Yes, I did love to hear the dulcet strains playing from my
Pi-controlled sprinkler controller.
Did it play 'Fur Elise'? It was rumored that was what a early generation >> of Windows PCs played on the internal speaker just befor the processor
burst into flames.
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20220316-computer-plays-fur-elise/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgFhNbFvl_s
My watch used to play Fr Elise for its alarm tone. It's long since
gone silent, but aside from the buttons getting hard to press it's
otherwise still working fine after over 40 years. Timex: takes a
licking and keeps on... uh...
On 10/08/2025 20:49, rbowman wrote:
Many things fall into that category. I examine the problem and devise a
hi-tech solution in my mind and then ask the fatal question, why
bother?
I have a pad of paper in the kitchen.
Every time I notice I am getting low on somethging I write it on the
pad.
My friend yells it to Alexa.
He thinks that's frightfully smart.
On 2025-08-11, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 10/08/2025 20:49, rbowman wrote:
Many things fall into that category. I examine the problem and devise
a hi-tech solution in my mind and then ask the fatal question, why
bother?
I have a pad of paper in the kitchen.
Every time I notice I am getting low on somethging I write it on the
pad.
My friend yells it to Alexa.
He thinks that's frightfully smart.
"Alexa, define 'bugging'."
Imagine my shock when I said that at a friend's place, and a smart
speaker lurking in a corner started reeling off a dictionary definition.
Made a bunch of environmental monitors once - nice solar-powered
thingies for The Field. There were a number of instruments attached -
including an electronic wind speed meter. SOME of the devices could
be polled at intervals, the wind-speed thing and a rain-gauge
generated pulses and thus HAD to work with interrupts or it'd use
massive power for nothing.
I HATE operaor overloading.
Linux can't, apparently.
On 2025-08-11, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The search for idealised 'guaranteed' response to asynchronous inputs
is still ongoing.
If its that important you give those tasks their own processor.
Which why your EMU doesn't run your cars air conditioning...
Yet.
I look at that oversized iPad stuck onto the middle of a Tesla's
dashboard (not in front of the driver where it would be more useful)
and a little voice inside me screams, "Single point of failure!"
As soon as you are running real time shit under a multitasking system
even giving high priority to real time tasks cannot guarantee they get
dealt with in exact time frames.
Even with interrupts, those may be disabled by 'higher priority' tasks.
I HATE opera[t]or overloading.
On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 22:26:50 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On 09 Aug 2025 10:35:05 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
You provide the advantage yourself and you can't see it? Read again
your sentence. They had to put efforts to develop safeguards. With a
mono-task system, they wouldn't have to. So like it or not, it's an
exemple of an advantage.
So how do you think the AGC programs could have been run on a
single-tasking system?
You wouldn't - it doesn't suit the problem. But not every problem is
"land on the Moon without going splat, take off again, and dock without having history's most expensive fender-bender."
In the strictest assessment, yes? But it's also a problem where I would
agree that the use of a multitasking RTOS is probably warranted (though
as I understand it automotive embedded systems may be implemented with discrete subsystems instead - like the Voyager probes, if we stick with
the spacecraft comparison - and I'm not sure what they run "under the
hood," so to speak.)
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 12:05:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As soon as you are running real time shit under a multitasking system
even giving high priority to real time tasks cannot guarantee they get
dealt with in exact time frames.
Even with interrupts, those may be disabled by 'higher priority' tasks.
In a hard-real-time system, like those Apollo Guidance Computers, each
task has guaranteed access to its required resources, including CPU time.
If those allocations cannot be met ... you get things like the famous “Twelve-Oh-Two Alarm” and “Twelve-Oh-One Alarm” as the system dumps tasks,
resets, reloads ... and actually continues on from before.
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 15:41:27 -0700, John Ames wrote:
In the strictest assessment, yes? But it's also a problem where I would
agree that the use of a multitasking RTOS is probably warranted (though
as I understand it automotive embedded systems may be implemented with
discrete subsystems instead - like the Voyager probes, if we stick with
the spacecraft comparison - and I'm not sure what they run "under the
hood," so to speak.)
Many subsystems connected by the CAN bus. In the Linux philosophy of do
one thing well you might find a Cortex-M microcontroller whose sole
function in life is adjusting the seats. The automotive industry did it
right for the most part. ucontrollers are cheap; no reason not to offload tasks onto a controller that sends periodic reports of how things are
going.
On 2025-08-11, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 10/08/2025 20:49, rbowman wrote:
Many things fall into that category. I examine the problem and devise a
hi-tech solution in my mind and then ask the fatal question, why bother?
I have a pad of paper in the kitchen.
Every time I notice I am getting low on somethging I write it on the pad.
My friend yells it to Alexa.
He thinks that's frightfully smart.
"Alexa, define 'bugging'."
Imagine my shock when I said that at a friend's place, and a smart
speaker lurking in a corner started reeling off a dictionary definition.
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 18:28:05 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-11, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The search for idealised 'guaranteed' response to asynchronous inputs
is still ongoing.
If its that important you give those tasks their own processor.
Which why your EMU doesn't run your cars air conditioning...
Yet.
I look at that oversized iPad stuck onto the middle of a Tesla's
dashboard (not in front of the driver where it would be more useful)
and a little voice inside me screams, "Single point of failure!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus#Automotive
The climate control and entertainment modules are probably running on
their own little LIN buses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Interconnect_Network
I'm not sure where the one ring to rule them all lives. Sometimes I wish
i still had my '51 Chevy beater.
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 11:45:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux can't, apparently.
Probably not anymore. I don't think newer kernels support the virtual 8086 mode.
On 10/08/2025 14:53, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I worked with the Lucent Switch 5ESS, running UNIX-RTR (UNIX Real-
Time-Reliable). That was the definition of a real time OS they used,
that it would respond within a given interval. But other tasks, like
printing a report, did not run in "real time" and took long, sometimes
more, some time less.
As soon as you are running real time shit under a multitasking system
even giving high priority to real time tasks cannot guarantee they get
dealt with in exact time frames.
Even with interrupts, those may be disabled by 'higher priority' tasks.
The search for idealised 'guaranteed' response to asynchronous inputs is still ongoing.
If its that important you give those tasks their own processor.
Which why your EMU doesn't run your cars air conditioning...
On 2025-08-11, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The search for idealised 'guaranteed' response to asynchronous inputs is
still ongoing.
If its that important you give those tasks their own processor.
Which why your EMU doesn't run your cars air conditioning...
Yet.
I look at that oversized iPad stuck onto the middle of a Tesla's
dashboard (not in front of the driver where it would be more useful)
and a little voice inside me screams, "Single point of failure!"
with <a5lnmlxbd8.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-10 21:57, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:33:40 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-09 23:58, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:06:08 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
*SKIP* [ 12 lines 5 levels deep]
There were a lot of fun things you could do.Certainly, I did that once. In Turbo Pascal :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminate-and-stay-resident_program
Mine was in Borland C++ (in plain C, of course). I mean, that's what I
was familiar with, because that's what I've got, because that wasn't
choice for me to make. Once. And then, nothing else worked (yes, when
I couldn't grab BC++ I've tried anything I could reach; too modern). Horrible times.
I don't remember what for.
I do. Too bad TSR wasn't up to task. TSR itself was working; had to abandon this goal anyway.
I also wrote a unit that would play the William Tell overture in
background, capturing the timer interrupt.
Mine was solver for that puzzle with rectangular grid and rows (and
columns) of numbers but not sudoku (no, I don't care what it is). That
was C++. Such a waste.
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 18:28:05 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-11, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The search for idealised 'guaranteed' response to asynchronous inputs
is still ongoing.
If its that important you give those tasks their own processor.
Which why your EMU doesn't run your cars air conditioning...
Yet.
I look at that oversized iPad stuck onto the middle of a Tesla's
dashboard (not in front of the driver where it would be more useful)
and a little voice inside me screams, "Single point of failure!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus#Automotive
The climate control and entertainment modules are probably running on
their own little LIN buses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Interconnect_Network
I'm not sure where the one ring to rule them all lives. Sometimes I wish
i still had my '51 Chevy beater.
Bad enough I talk to the damn cat; I am not going to talk to Alexa.*applause*
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 15:41:27 -0700, John Ames wrote:
In the strictest assessment, yes? But it's also a problem where I would
agree that the use of a multitasking RTOS is probably warranted (though
as I understand it automotive embedded systems may be implemented with
discrete subsystems instead - like the Voyager probes, if we stick with
the spacecraft comparison - and I'm not sure what they run "under the
hood," so to speak.)
Many subsystems connected by the CAN bus. In the Linux philosophy of do
one thing well you might find a Cortex-M microcontroller whose sole
function in life is adjusting the seats. The automotive industry did it
right for the most part. ucontrollers are cheap; no reason not to offload tasks onto a controller that sends periodic reports of how things are
going.
On 2025-08-11 13:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/08/2025 14:53, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I worked with the Lucent Switch 5ESS, running UNIX-RTR (UNIX Real-
Time-Reliable). That was the definition of a real time OS they used,
that it would respond within a given interval. But other tasks, like
printing a report, did not run in "real time" and took long,
sometimes more, some time less.
As soon as you are running real time shit under a multitasking system
even giving high priority to real time tasks cannot guarantee they get
dealt with in exact time frames.
It did. If it failed, long distance phone calls would not work.
Even with interrupts, those may be disabled by 'higher priority' tasks.
The search for idealised 'guaranteed' response to asynchronous inputs
is still ongoing.
If its that important you give those tasks their own processor.
Which why your EMU doesn't run your cars air conditioning...
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Distributed autonomous units beat a centralised bureaucracy any day.
On 2025-08-11, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-11, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 10/08/2025 20:49, rbowman wrote:
Many things fall into that category. I examine the problem and devise a >>>> hi-tech solution in my mind and then ask the fatal question, why bother? >>>I have a pad of paper in the kitchen.
Every time I notice I am getting low on somethging I write it on the pad. >>> My friend yells it to Alexa.
He thinks that's frightfully smart.
"Alexa, define 'bugging'."
Imagine my shock when I said that at a friend's place, and a smart
speaker lurking in a corner started reeling off a dictionary definition.
For some reason, this URL comes to mind:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1807:_Listening
:-)
On 8/11/25 4:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 18:28:05 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-11, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The search for idealised 'guaranteed' response to asynchronous inputs
is still ongoing.
If its that important you give those tasks their own processor.
Which why your EMU doesn't run your cars air conditioning...
Yet.
I look at that oversized iPad stuck onto the middle of a Tesla's
dashboard (not in front of the driver where it would be more useful)
and a little voice inside me screams, "Single point of failure!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus#Automotive
The climate control and entertainment modules are probably running on
their own little LIN buses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Interconnect_Network
I'm not sure where the one ring to rule them all lives. Sometimes I
wish i still had my '51 Chevy beater.
Check the antique auto sites ... you CAN have 'em :-)
Prices aren't always THAT bad.
On 2025-08-12, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Distributed autonomous units beat a centralised bureaucracy any day.
At least until they start reporting back to a centralized bureaucracy.
Oh ... 'report' ... which will be collected and SOLD to your
automobile insurance companies, maybe your health insurers,
advertisers, maybe to the State in case you were ever extra naughty
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 00:06:17 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Oh ... 'report' ... which will be collected and SOLD to your
automobile insurance companies, maybe your health insurers,
advertisers, maybe to the State in case you were ever extra naughty
State Farm floated out a scheme involving a radio collar on your car years ago. It would reduce rates, they said. I took a hard pass. I haven't seen anything about it lately; maybe the spyware in the car suffices.
On 2025-08-11 13:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As soon as you are running real time shit under a multitasking system
even giving high priority to real time tasks cannot guarantee they get
dealt with in exact time frames.
It did. If it failed, long distance phone calls would not work.
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Even having a script beep or boop at you is not easy. You can echo a
ctrl-G, but that's about it. Doesn't always work, either. Not in a
script running in cron, for instance.
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 22:13:29 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Think of how the ABS brakes work in your car: while you have your foot
flat to the floor, trying to come to a halt, the controller has to
sense when a skid is imminent, overrule your control to *release*
the brakes for a tiny fraction of a second, then apply them again. This
happens over and over, within the time it takes (typically less than a
second) to bring you to a halt.
You think that’s a simpler problem than the P64 program on the AGC that
controlled the descent to the Moon?
In the strictest assessment, yes?
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 18:47:12 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-12, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Distributed autonomous units beat a centralised bureaucracy any day.
At least until they start reporting back to a centralized bureaucracy.
It was all downhill after the crew that was tasked with revising the
Articles of Confederation went off script in camera and created The United States from the united states.
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 10:41:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Socialists are the ones who insist on the safety features.
George Washington in addition to being a plantation owner who
used his own and Martha's slaves on his land, was a land speculator and
had surveyed tracts in tthe Valley of the Ohio. The UK was not down
with that as they did not want to disturb the Occupants who used the
land for agriculture and hunting.
The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like Trump being elected.
MS should abandon all of Windows and hide GNU/Linux under an
appropriate cover and just license the use, not the code.
On 11/08/2025 21:58, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 18:28:05 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-11, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The search for idealised 'guaranteed' response to asynchronous inputs
is still ongoing.
If its that important you give those tasks their own processor.
Which why your EMU doesn't run your cars air conditioning...
Yet.
I look at that oversized iPad stuck onto the middle of a Tesla's
dashboard (not in front of the driver where it would be more useful)
and a little voice inside me screams, "Single point of failure!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus#Automotive
The climate control and entertainment modules are probably running on
their own little LIN buses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Interconnect_Network
I'm not sure where the one ring to rule them all lives. Sometimes I wish >> i still had my '51 Chevy beater.
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Distributed autonomous units beat a centralised bureaucracy any day.
Note that distributed is sometimes "less efficient"
than central management, less coordinated. However distributed is
'stronger', less breakable. If one percent of your control crashes
the other 99% may be enough to compensate.
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a
Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members
of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This seems to
work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much
simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some convoluted “impeachment” process.
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 10:36:40 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Even having a script beep or boop at you is not easy. You can echo a
ctrl-G, but that's about it. Doesn't always work, either. Not in a
script running in cron, for instance.
If there is a GUI session logged in under the same user, it should be possible to detect that from a cron job running under that user, and communicate back through the session notification mechanism.
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 18:47:12 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-12, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Distributed autonomous units beat a centralised bureaucracy any day.
At least until they start reporting back to a centralized bureaucracy.
It was all downhill after the crew that was tasked with revising the
Articles of Confederation went off script in camera and created The United States from the united states.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a
Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members
of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This seems to
work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much
simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some
convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
On 2025-08-12, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Distributed autonomous units beat a centralised bureaucracy any day.
At least until they start reporting back to a centralized bureaucracy.
The Articles of Confederation, unlike the Constitution, was
a suicide pact for a nation. and The States were not properly United
under that document. The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like
Trump being elected. Because rotten exploiters of darker skinned
people and women that they were they never thought that a serial
sexual assaulter could be elected or that that rich people would
have so little respect for the document under which that class
thrived.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a
Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members
of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This seems to
work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much
simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some
convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 23:12:11 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 10:41:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Socialists are the ones who insist on the safety features.
They do love their nanny states. That's understandable since the useful idiots that make up their ranks are dumber than a box of rocks.
On 8/12/25 5:41 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Distributed autonomous units beat a centralised bureaucracy any day.
Fair eval.
Note that distributed is sometimes "less efficient"
than central management, less coordinated. However
distributed is 'stronger', less breakable. If one
percent of your control crashes the other 99% may
be enough to compensate.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 01:00:51 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Note that distributed is sometimes "less efficient"
than central management, less coordinated. However distributed is
'stronger', less breakable. If one percent of your control crashes
the other 99% may be enough to compensate.
https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/06/what-is-distributism.html
On 2025-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 10:36:40 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Even having a script beep or boop at you is not easy. You can echo a
ctrl-G, but that's about it. Doesn't always work, either. Not in a
script running in cron, for instance.
If there is a GUI session logged in under the same user, it should be
possible to detect that from a cron job running under that user, and
communicate back through the session notification mechanism.
That is going to be not only more complicated but also specific to a few graphical environments and configurations.
This in no way compares to being able to just beep the PC speaker.
On 8/13/25 2:16 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a
Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members
of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This seems to >>> work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much
simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some
convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
Someone just as bad or even worse ......
Russia and the EU dislike local autonomy. Which is why they are massive, slow, corrupt and immensely inefficient.
On 2025-08-13 12:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Russia and the EU dislike local autonomy. Which is why they are
massive, slow, corrupt and immensely inefficient.
You know little about the EU. But I'm not going to talk about that here.
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 16:47:20 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
George Washington in addition to being a plantation owner who
used his own and Martha's slaves on his land, was a land speculator and
had surveyed tracts in tthe Valley of the Ohio. The UK was not down
with that as they did not want to disturb the Occupants who used the
land for agriculture and hunting.
George Washington was the only sitting US president to take command of an army in the field. The context: he was trying to collect taxes in western Pennsylvania. Gotta take care of the important stuff.
It's also interesting how after speculators bought up Revolutionary war
debt for pennies on the dollar the US government suddenly decided to pay
the debts in full. The yeomen who paid for the war got screwed by the
money men, as usual.
Funny too is how most of the 'framers of the Constitution' were merchants
and bankers rather than the people who put their lives on the line to sign the Declaration of Independence.
The people who fight wars are generally screwed by the system
and the Revolutionary War was no different. The modern Veterans Administration was an attempt to remedy that problem. The Civil War
Veterans on the Union Side were given pensions and for intractable
pain were given morphine. That was the cause of many respectable
people being narcotics addicts when the Harrison Narcotics Act was
passed about 70 years later. Addiction was poorly understood at the
time of the Civil War and it was less problematic than whisky.
In the UK at least, we now have a new party with a vaguely charismatic leader. Who importantly isn't either of the two 'main parties' and in
fact is doing better than either of them in the polls.
I am sure in time it will all turn out to be 'ino matter who you vote
for, the government always gets in'* but there is a window of
opportunity to try some new stuff out before power will corrupt them too..
On 13/08/2025 03:31, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 23:12:11 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 10:41:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Socialists are the ones who insist on the safety features.
They do love their nanny states. That's understandable since the useful
idiots that make up their ranks are dumber than a box of rocks.
We say a 'box of frogs' especially where the French are concerned
I think a valid observation is that vast quantities of the gene pool are
in fact by their very nature, slaves. They really do want someone else
to *tell them what to think and do*.
Instead of doing what they should have done in the first place, and
improved public education so the average American is at least as well informed as the most ignorant European.
On 8/13/25 2:16 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a
Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members
of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This seems
to work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much
simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some
convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
Someone just as bad or even worse ......
The Army has its brigades and its platoons, all with a degree of
autonomy. The USA has its states and its counties,
On 2025-08-13, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
The people who fight wars are generally screwed by the system
and the Revolutionary War was no different. The modern Veterans
Administration was an attempt to remedy that problem. The Civil War
Veterans on the Union Side were given pensions and for intractable
pain were given morphine. That was the cause of many respectable
people being narcotics addicts when the Harrison Narcotics Act was
passed about 70 years later. Addiction was poorly understood at the
time of the Civil War and it was less problematic than whisky.
As opposed to today, where addiction is well understood and has
been turned into the driving force behind The Economy.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:24:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Instead of doing what they should have done in the first place, and
improved public education so the average American is at least as well
informed as the most ignorant European.
They did not have to 'improve' public education; instead they destroyed
it.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 16:47:20 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like Trump being elected.
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of
a Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the
Members of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President.
This seems to work better, if only because getting rid of the
executive is a much simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among
MPs, rather than some convoluted “impeachment” process.
Downside is that the executive can be brought down by political
gameplay with no input from the voting public. The UK went through
five leaders before Starmer with only one coming in after winning an election.
However, I would much, much rather this system than anything that
can enable an autocrat like in the US currently.
I think a valid observation is that vast quantities of the gene pool
are in fact by their very nature, slaves. They really do want
someone else to *tell them what to think and do*.
Geography
was gone whereas in my 1940s and 1950s curriculum it was a bane
but before the names of certain areas were changed we knew
where they were and what the important products were.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:24:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Instead of doing what they should have done in the first place, and
improved public education so the average American is at least as well
informed as the most ignorant European.
They did not have to 'improve' public education; instead they destroyed
it.
If course they did. The last thing the GOP want is an educated
electorate.
The poorly educated can be easily manipulated.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 05:22:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/13/25 2:16 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a >>>>> Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the
Members of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President.
This seems to work better, if only because getting rid of the
executive is a much simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among
MPs, rather than some convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
Someone just as bad or even worse ......
Is there a Natasha to match Boris? Truss set records of having a
lifespan of a mayfly. From all reports Boris played a large role in the
continuing destruction of the Ukraine.
Incorrect. He was the first to unequivocally stand behind Ukraine.
“Democracy is the worst system in the world ... apart from all the others.”
-- Winston Churchill
On 2025-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 10:36:40 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Even having a script beep or boop at you is not easy. You can echo a
ctrl-G, but that's about it. Doesn't always work, either. Not in a
script running in cron, for instance.
If there is a GUI session logged in under the same user, it should be
possible to detect that from a cron job running under that user, and
communicate back through the session notification mechanism.
That is going to be not only more complicated but also specific to a few graphical environments and configurations.
This in no way compares to being able to just beep the PC speaker.
On 13/08/2025 07:16, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a
Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members
of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This seems to >>> work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much
simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some
convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
Starmer will stagger on till near full term.
On 13/08/2025 00:47, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Articles of Confederation, unlike the Constitution, was
a suicide pact for a nation. and The States were not properly United
under that document. The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like
Trump being elected. Because rotten exploiters of darker skinned
people and women that they were they never thought that a serial
sexual assaulter could be elected or that that rich people would
have so little respect for the document under which that class
thrived.
Well when Trump finally leaves office, willingly or unwillingly, no
doubt those who seek ever closer control of everything will draft laws ensuring that it never happens that way again, and the people never get
to choose again, like it is in the EU.
Instead of doing what they should have done in the first place, and
improved public education so the average American is at least as well informed as the most ignorant European.
And the Common Market turned from a tariff free trading zone into
the European Union, a dictatorial antidemocratic attempt to do the same
or emulate the Soviet Union.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:47:38 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Geography
was gone whereas in my 1940s and 1950s curriculum it was a bane
but before the names of certain areas were changed we knew
where they were and what the important products were.
Ah yes, All that knowledge about 1950's African geography that is utterly useless today. I don't know how much longer it lasted but in my high
school anyone aspiring to college took two years of Latin before choosing
a modern language, German for engineers, French for the artsy crafty
types. That was the public high school. The Catholic high school also
taught Latin of course and we would argue about pronunciations.
I was fortunate. After the 'oh shit' moment when Sputnik was lost they
ramped up science and math in grade school.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 00:35:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
“Democracy is the worst system in the world ... apart from all the
others.”
-- Winston Churchill
Churchill should have taken up basset breeding and never have been heard
from again after his WWI disaster.
On 8/13/25 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 00:47, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Articles of Confederation, unlike the Constitution, was
a suicide pact for a nation. and The States were not properly United
under that document. The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like
Trump being elected. Because rotten exploiters of darker skinned
people and women that they were they never thought that a serial
sexual assaulter could be elected or that that rich people would
have so little respect for the document under which that class
thrived.
Well when Trump finally leaves office, willingly or unwillingly, no
doubt those who seek ever closer control of everything will draft laws
ensuring that it never happens that way again, and the people never
get to choose again, like it is in the EU.
Yep, de-facto totalitarianism "for your own good" ...
Of late, always seems to mean "Thou shalt vote Left
or not at all".
Whatever it is, I hope Trump GETS IT DONE real quick
and undermines lefty vote/info-rigging.
Instead of doing what they should have done in the first place, and
improved public education so the average American is at least as well
informed as the most ignorant European.
'Donations' and 'pressure' ... they corrupted the pols
and bureaucrats. Nothing new. The result tends to be
cumulative alas - look up "Roman Empire".
This seems to be inherent in most ANY human-created
"system".
My parochial high school taught Latin and Spanish, German was noton
the
agenda or I might be a retired chemist today. >
thenI was fortunate. After the 'oh shit' moment when Sputnik was lost they
ramped up science and math in grade school.
Sputnik was lost? Or l aunched? We lost the space race to orbit
won
it to the Moon then nearly forgot about it. Now because of resistance to taxation on the part of the best compensated and most accumulative we contract out to a NAZI who believes that rapid disassembly is a good
outcome.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:20:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And the Common Market turned from a tariff free trading zone into the
European Union, a dictatorial antidemocratic attempt to do the same or
emulate the Soviet Union.
You sound like some of those folks in Hungary, possibly even Poland. If
you hate the EU so much, why don’t you do what the UK did, just leave?
But then you wouldn’t get all that lovely free money from Brussels,
would you?
Basically everything now uses a 'sound chip'. It's
not really the same as the old PC speaker beeps.
On 8/13/25 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 00:47, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Articles of Confederation, unlike the Constitution, was
a suicide pact for a nation. and The States were not properly United
under that document. The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like
Trump being elected. Because rotten exploiters of darker skinned
people and women that they were they never thought that a serial
sexual assaulter could be elected or that that rich people would have
so little respect for the document under which that class
thrived.
Well when Trump finally leaves office, willingly or unwillingly, no
doubt those who seek ever closer control of everything will draft laws
ensuring that it never happens that way again, and the people never get
to choose again, like it is in the EU.
Yep, de-facto totalitarianism "for your own good" ...
Of late, always seems to mean "Thou shalt vote Left or not at all".
Whatever it is, I hope Trump GETS IT DONE real quick and undermines
lefty vote/info-rigging.
That is your opinion of Churchill without whose leadership the UKmight
well have been speaking German by this time.
On 13/08/2025 10:22, c186282 wrote:
On 8/13/25 2:16 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a
Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members >>>> of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This
seems to
work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much
simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some
convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
Someone just as bad or even worse ......
Well I think in this moment, perhaps not.
Starmer is in because the 'other lot' were so excruciatingly incompetent ,patronising and corrupt, that people wanted to kick them in the nuts.
He has of course turned out to be worse.
The same narrative appears to be behind MAGA support
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:51:29 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/13/25 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 00:47, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Articles of Confederation, unlike the Constitution, was >>>> a suicide pact for a nation. and The States were not properly United
under that document. The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like
Trump being elected. Because rotten exploiters of darker skinned
people and women that they were they never thought that a serial
sexual assaulter could be elected or that that rich people would have
so little respect for the document under which that class
thrived.
Well when Trump finally leaves office, willingly or unwillingly, no
doubt those who seek ever closer control of everything will draft laws
ensuring that it never happens that way again, and the people never get
to choose again, like it is in the EU.
Yep, de-facto totalitarianism "for your own good" ...
Of late, always seems to mean "Thou shalt vote Left or not at all".
Whatever it is, I hope Trump GETS IT DONE real quick and undermines
lefty vote/info-rigging.
Trump isn't my ideal choice but some moments I wouldn't mind an Enablng
Act so the Democrats never get control again in my lifetime.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 03:32:29 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:20:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And the Common Market turned from a tariff free trading zone into the
European Union, a dictatorial antidemocratic attempt to do the same or
emulate the Soviet Union.
You sound like some of those folks in Hungary, possibly even Poland. If
you hate the EU so much, why don’t you do what the UK did, just leave?
But then you wouldn’t get all that lovely free money from Brussels,
would you?
It is my impression that the Natural Philosopher lives in the UK.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:44:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Basically everything now uses a 'sound chip'. It's
not really the same as the old PC speaker beeps.
I imagine Linux has one if I looked hard enough but Windows has or had a
text to speech API that worked rather well. I did a proof of concept with
it but having a computer chattering away in a dispatch center didn't sound like a great idea. We do give them the option of configuring .wav files to
be played for alerts and so forth instead of beeping like the Road Runner.
In the early 2000s when QA was testing the beeps it could get annoying and
I threatened to cut the speaker wires only to find there wasn't a speaker only a piezoelectric chip hidden someplace on the mobo.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:51:29 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/13/25 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 00:47, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Articles of Confederation, unlike the Constitution, was >>>> a suicide pact for a nation. and The States were not properly United
under that document. The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like
Trump being elected. Because rotten exploiters of darker skinned
people and women that they were they never thought that a serial
sexual assaulter could be elected or that that rich people would have
so little respect for the document under which that class
thrived.
Well when Trump finally leaves office, willingly or unwillingly, no
doubt those who seek ever closer control of everything will draft laws
ensuring that it never happens that way again, and the people never get
to choose again, like it is in the EU.
Yep, de-facto totalitarianism "for your own good" ...
Of late, always seems to mean "Thou shalt vote Left or not at all".
Whatever it is, I hope Trump GETS IT DONE real quick and undermines
lefty vote/info-rigging.
Trump isn't my ideal choice but some moments I wouldn't mind an Enablng
Act so the Democrats never get control again in my lifetime.
On 8/13/25 21:43, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:51:29 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/13/25 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 00:47, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Articles of Confederation, unlike the Constitution, was >>>>> a suicide pact for a nation. and The States were not properly United >>>>> under that document. The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like >>>>> Trump being elected. Because rotten exploiters of darker skinned
people and women that they were they never thought that a serial
sexual assaulter could be elected or that that rich people would have >>>>> so little respect for the document under which that class
thrived.
Well when Trump finally leaves office, willingly or unwillingly, no
doubt those who seek ever closer control of everything will draft laws >>>> ensuring that it never happens that way again, and the people never get >>>> to choose again, like it is in the EU.
Yep, de-facto totalitarianism "for your own good" ...
Of late, always seems to mean "Thou shalt vote Left or not at all". >>>
Whatever it is, I hope Trump GETS IT DONE real quick and undermines >>> lefty vote/info-rigging.
Trump isn't my ideal choice but some moments I wouldn't mind an Enablng
Act so the Democrats never get control again in my lifetime.
If the Democrats never get control again of the government you will be having
constant inflation and it will be beyond recession.
On 8/13/25 4:14 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 10:36:40 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Even having a script beep or boop at you is not easy. You can echo a
ctrl-G, but that's about it. Doesn't always work, either. Not in a
script running in cron, for instance.
If there is a GUI session logged in under the same user, it should be
possible to detect that from a cron job running under that user, and
communicate back through the session notification mechanism.
That is going to be not only more complicated but also specific to a few
graphical environments and configurations.
This in no way compares to being able to just beep the PC speaker.
Basically everything now uses a 'sound chip'. It's
not really the same as the old PC speaker beeps.
Now if you want to literally tweak the kernel you
could redirect to some port/pin hardwired to a
little speaker - send it pulses from the pin.
All the prohibition of drugs including alcohol would accomplish
was price support for criminal entrepreneurs.
On 8/13/25 12:58, rbowman wrote:
They did not have to 'improve' public education; instead they destroyed
it.
With the consent of the parents who thought they had suffered
from too much homework. They cut out Physical Education as well
with the result we have a couple of generations of fat children.
They cut out art and music appreciation as well since I was in school and Modern Hhistory of WW II and since which opens the minds
of the young to the Fascist corruption we find too often. Geography
was gone whereas in my 1940s and 1950s curriculum it was a bane
but before the names of certain areas were changed we knew
where they were and what the important products were.
bliss
Is there a Natasha to match Boris? Truss set records of having a lifespan
of a mayfly. From all reports Boris played a large role in the continuing destruction of the Ukraine.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:24:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Instead of doing what they should have done in the first place, and
improved public education so the average American is at least as well
informed as the most ignorant European.
They did not have to 'improve' public education; instead they destroyed
it.
If course they did. The last thing the GOP want is an educated electorate. The poorly educated can be easily manipulated.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 05:22:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/13/25 2:16 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a >>>>> Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members >>>>> of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This seems >>>>> to work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much >>>>> simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some >>>>> convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
Someone just as bad or even worse ......
Is there a Natasha to match Boris? Truss set records of having a lifespan
of a mayfly. From all reports Boris played a large role in the continuing
destruction of the Ukraine.
Incorrect. He was the first to unequivocally stand behind Ukraine.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:47:12 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Incorrect. He was the first to unequivocally stand behind Ukraine.
That's what I said :) Britain standing behind the Ukraine was like
Britain standing behind Poland in '39. 'Let's you and him fight'
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 12/08/2025 20:59, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 18:47:12 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-12, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The point is that socialists dont yet design cars
Distributed autonomous units beat a centralised bureaucracy any day.
At least until they start reporting back to a centralized bureaucracy.
It was all downhill after the crew that was tasked with revising the
Articles of Confederation went off script in camera and created The United >>> States from the united states.
Yah. And the Common Market turned from a tariff free trading zone into
the European Union, a dictatorial antidemocratic attempt to do the same
or emulate the Soviet Union.
Lol. Rich coming from an american under trump. A clear advocate for anti-democratic authoritarianism.
The GOP is worthless in taking care of the nation rather than the wealthiest.
bliss>
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:51:29 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/13/25 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 00:47, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Articles of Confederation, unlike the Constitution, was >>>> a suicide pact for a nation. and The States were not properly United
under that document. The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like
Trump being elected. Because rotten exploiters of darker skinned
people and women that they were they never thought that a serial
sexual assaulter could be elected or that that rich people would have
so little respect for the document under which that class
thrived.
Well when Trump finally leaves office, willingly or unwillingly, no
doubt those who seek ever closer control of everything will draft laws
ensuring that it never happens that way again, and the people never get
to choose again, like it is in the EU.
Yep, de-facto totalitarianism "for your own good" ...
Of late, always seems to mean "Thou shalt vote Left or not at all".
Whatever it is, I hope Trump GETS IT DONE real quick and undermines
lefty vote/info-rigging.
Trump isn't my ideal choice but some moments I wouldn't mind an Enablng
Act so the Democrats never get control again in my lifetime.
It HAS become quite clear ... "leftists" MUST be
excluded/crushed or it's total DOOM.
Trump/MAGA may not be "perfect" - but still WAY WAY
ahead of anything "left".
Oh, NYC is about to elect a 'socialist'/commie mayor.
This will DOOM this huge city. Humans are suckers for
propaganda/causes/ideology. NOT great.
Ooooh - FREE MONEY !
Right ........Left....
On 8/13/25 19:51, c186282 wrote:
On 8/13/25 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 00:47, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Articles of Confederation, unlike the Constitution, was
a suicide pact for a nation. and The States were not properly United
under that document. The Constitution never envisaged a idiot like
Trump being elected. Because rotten exploiters of darker skinned
people and women that they were they never thought that a serial
sexual assaulter could be elected or that that rich people would
have so little respect for the document under which that class
thrived.
Well when Trump finally leaves office, willingly or unwillingly, no
doubt those who seek ever closer control of everything will draft
laws ensuring that it never happens that way again, and the people
never get to choose again, like it is in the EU.
Yep, de-facto totalitarianism "for your own good" ...
Of late, always seems to mean "Thou shalt vote Left
or not at all".
Whatever it is, I hope Trump GETS IT DONE real quick
and undermines lefty vote/info-rigging.
Instead of doing what they should have done in the first place, and
improved public education so the average American is at least as well
informed as the most ignorant European.
'Donations' and 'pressure' ... they corrupted the pols
and bureaucrats. Nothing new. The result tends to be
cumulative alas - look up "Roman Empire".
This seems to be inherent in most ANY human-created
"system".
The only left wing vote rigging is in Trump's Mind(if any).
The only attempts to vote illegally were done by Republicans
The Democrats are Left of Center where they belong as the
the Left is the side of the workers who keep things running while
the Right believes his lies such as the present Crime Wave he
talked about today as an excuse to move Troops and FBI into
the District of Columbus to shove the homeless out of visibility.
Trump is out of his mind if he has one. If he has a mind it has
been corrupted by his narcissism to the point he belives his
endless lies.
He lost the 2020 election. He won in 2024 because the
credulous believed that he would help the economy mainly
to cut inflation and lower prices. So far prices of food are
going up and nearly every other commodity and
convenience. So Trump is a windbag as well as a gas
bag with poor bowel control.
Examine the records of the past, every time Tariffs
have been imposed usually by Republicans, they have lost
the next elections. Every time the Democrats have been
elected they have had to clean up the Republican mess
and still they had more employment and higher GDP when
they were running things.
Republicans smother the economy because they
only think of the welfare of the rich and well compensated.
On 8/13/25 5:47 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 07:16, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a
Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members >>>> of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This
seems to
work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much
simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some
convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
Starmer will stagger on till near full term.
Very likely ... and then his replacement will be
even MORE stupid and destructive.
I've just lost faith in the UK - seems to be
rushing towards the proverbial cliff as fast
as it can.
Then it'll want the USA/EU to save it.
Nope.
Oh, and Trump knows *exactly* what he's doing ...
a wheeler-dealer keep-em-guessing kind of tact.
NOT like the typical politician.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 03:32:29 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:20:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And the Common Market turned from a tariff free trading zone into the
European Union, a dictatorial antidemocratic attempt to do the same or
emulate the Soviet Union.
You sound like some of those folks in Hungary, possibly even Poland. If
you hate the EU so much, why don’t you do what the UK did, just leave?
But then you wouldn’t get all that lovely free money from Brussels,
would you?
It is my impression that the Natural Philosopher lives in the UK.
On 8/14/25 12:30 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 03:32:29 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:20:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And the Common Market turned from a tariff free trading zone into the
European Union, a dictatorial antidemocratic attempt to do the same or >>>> emulate the Soviet Union.
You sound like some of those folks in Hungary, possibly even Poland. If
you hate the EU so much, why don’t you do what the UK did, just leave? >>> But then you wouldn’t get all that lovely free money from Brussels,
would you?
It is my impression that the Natural Philosopher lives in the UK.
He does.
The UK is Going Down Hard.
On 8/13/25 6:39 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 10:22, c186282 wrote:
On 8/13/25 2:16 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 03:04:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
UK-style Parliamentary systems put executive power in the hands of a >>>>> Prime Minister and accompanying Cabinet, picked from among the Members >>>>> of Parliament, rather than a separately-elected President. This
seems to
work better, if only because getting rid of the executive is a much
simpler matter of a vote of no confidence among MPs, rather than some >>>>> convoluted “impeachment” process.
How long before Starmer is out on his ass? Who will be next?
Someone just as bad or even worse ......
Well I think in this moment, perhaps not.
Starmer is in because the 'other lot' were so excruciatingly
incompetent ,patronising and corrupt, that people wanted to kick them
in the nuts.
He has of course turned out to be worse.
The same narrative appears to be behind MAGA support
'MAGA' at least expects certain positive RESULTS.
UK (and Oz) ... nobody sees even that - just Worse
and Worse and Worse.
Of late, always seems to mean "Thou shalt vote Left
or not at all".
Whatever it is, I hope Trump GETS IT DONE real quick
and undermines lefty vote/info-rigging.
Instead of doing what they should have done in the first place, and
improved public education so the average American is at least as well
informed as the most ignorant European.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 00:35:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
wrote:
“Democracy is the worst system in the world ... apart from all
the others.” -- Winston Churchill
Churchill should have taken up basset breeding and never have been
heard from again after his WWI disaster.
That is your opinion of Churchill without whose leadership the UK
might well have been speaking German by this time. I loved his
evaluation of the Mauser auto-pistol which all the villains in my SF
comic books seemed to use. Buck Rogers in the 24th Century and the
Lost Planet Airmen stories. He said that the accuracy was such that
it was best pressed into the individual attacking before firing. That
was I believe before WW I as he was shooting from horseback.
bliss
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:47:38 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Geography
was gone whereas in my 1940s and 1950s curriculum it was a bane
but before the names of certain areas were changed we knew
where they were and what the important products were.
Ah yes, All that knowledge about 1950's African geography that is utterly useless today. I don't know how much longer it lasted but in my high
school anyone aspiring to college took two years of Latin before choosing
a modern language, German for engineers, French for the artsy crafty
types. That was the public high school. The Catholic high school also
taught Latin of course and we would argue about pronunciations.
I was fortunate. After the 'oh shit' moment when Sputnik was lost they
ramped up science and math in grade school.
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Of late, always seems to mean "Thou shalt vote Left
or not at all".
gimme a break! The Republicans say "Thou shalt vote right(wing) or
we'll redistrict you into oblivion!"
Whatever it is, I hope Trump GETS IT DONE real quick
and undermines lefty vote/info-rigging.
It's the republicans who are trying to rig the voting system. The blue
states largely have non-partisan commisions to draw districts.
Republicans don't like democracy!
Instead of doing what they should have done in the first place, and
improved public education so the average American is at least as well
informed as the most ignorant European.
Again, you seem to have missed gthat its the right wing idiots who are
trying to destroy public education.
On 14/08/2025 10:54 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:47:38 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Geography
was gone whereas in my 1940s and 1950s curriculum it was a bane
but before the names of certain areas were changed we knew
where they were and what the important products were.
Ah yes, All that knowledge about 1950's African geography that is utterly
useless today. I don't know how much longer it lasted but in my high
school anyone aspiring to college took two years of Latin before choosing
a modern language, German for engineers, French for the artsy crafty
types. That was the public high school. The Catholic high school also
taught Latin of course and we would argue about pronunciations.
Because of the 'population explosion' following WWII, my Catholic
Primary School was over-flowing so for Grade Six, they kicked us boys
across the road to the Marist Brothers (Boys) High School where we
studied French and Latin ... and our results for those two subjects determined if we continued in the "Languages Stream" or went with "Maths/Science Stream".
I was fortunate. After the 'oh shit' moment when Sputnik was lost theyI think I can still count from One to Ten in French .... that's about my limit!!
ramped up science and math in grade school.
The Democrats are Left of Center where they belong as the
the Left is the side of the workers who keep things running while the
Right believes his lies such as the present Crime Wave he talked about
today as an excuse to move Troops and FBI into the District of Columbus
to shove the homeless out of visibility.
Trump is out of his mind if he has one. If he has a mind it has been corrupted by his narcissism to the point he belives his endless lies.
The phrase that applies here is 'two cheeks of the same arse'
I think you underestimate us, we realise that both have a vested
interest in destroying us. The EU especially. We are to the EU as
Ukraine is to Russia. An unwanted rebellion against their dictatorship.
On 14/08/2025 1:43 pm, Bobbie Sellers wrote> On 8/13/25 18:00, rbowman
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 00:35:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
wrote:
“Democracy is the worst system in the world ... apart from all
the others.” -- Winston Churchill
Churchill should have taken up basset breeding and never have been
heard from again after his WWI disaster.
That is your opinion of Churchill without whose leadership the UK
might well have been speaking German by this time. I loved his
evaluation of the Mauser auto-pistol which all the villains in my SF
comic books seemed to use. Buck Rogers in the 24th Century and the
Lost Planet Airmen stories. He said that the accuracy was such that
it was best pressed into the individual attacking before firing. That
was I believe before WW I as he was shooting from horseback.
Hmm! I thought it was "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century" .... or was that
a difference between the Comics and T.V.??
On 14/08/2025 01:57, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:47:12 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Incorrect. He was the first to unequivocally stand behind Ukraine.
That's what I said :) Britain standing behind the Ukraine was like
Britain standing behind Poland in '39. 'Let's you and him fight'
Mmm. I detect some penis envy here.
The whole of Europe is now doing what America lacks the guts to do. Supporting Ukraine 100% *because* they are doing our job for us. If
Ukraine falls, Poland, Estonia Lithuania and Latvia are next. And they
have all the Soviet T shirts to remind then what its like living under
a police state of total corruption.
Swiftly followed by Alaska...
But they decided to instead seduce the moderately intelligent by
providing them with a sense of superiority and the impression that they
were educated, when they were merely indoctrinated.
Wilson ran on 'he kept us out of war'. He lied. Roosevelt floated out the same line. He lied. Maybe Trump can pull it off.
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would switch to
French when they didn't want the kids to know what was going on. Some of
the kids could speak French; that was a ball when they hit the high school French class. Quebec French got a divorce from Parisian French about 300 years ago.
I think I can still count from One to Ten in French .... that's about my limit!!
The UK, a leading trading power and financial center, is the second
largest economy in Europe after Germany.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:06:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 01:57, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:47:12 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Incorrect. He was the first to unequivocally stand behind Ukraine.
That's what I said :) Britain standing behind the Ukraine was like
Britain standing behind Poland in '39. 'Let's you and him fight'
Mmm. I detect some penis envy here.
The whole of Europe is now doing what America lacks the guts to do.
Supporting Ukraine 100% *because* they are doing our job for us. If
Ukraine falls, Poland, Estonia Lithuania and Latvia are next. And they
have all the Soviet T shirts to remind then what its like living under
a police state of total corruption.
Swiftly followed by Alaska...
No penis envy; it's time Europe handles its own problem. Had the US not
stuck its nose in during WWI the 20th century probably would have been
much more pleasant. Had Balfour not paid off Weizmann for his acetone synthesis method the 21st century might be running more smoothly too.
Wilson ran on 'he kept us out of war'. He lied. Roosevelt floated out the same line. He lied. Maybe Trump can pull it off.
And guess why we support Ukraine. The Russian federation DOES have a
military force.
On 14/08/2025 06:20, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The GOP is worthless in taking care of the nation rather thanSo goes the 'Libral' narrative.
the
wealthiest.
But look at who *they* took care of...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:10:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The UK, a leading trading power and financial center, is the second
largest economy in Europe after Germany.
Ironic, isn't it. WWI was an attempt to bottle up a unified Germany that
had finally made it to the industrial revolution. Two wars later after a concerted effort to turn Germany into a backward agrarian state and...
Oh, NYC is about to elect a 'socialist'/commie mayor.
This will DOOM this huge city. Humans are suckers for
propaganda/causes/ideology. NOT great.
Trump and MAGA are an extremely high price to pay to get rid of the
Marxists. :-(
Same as London. London is not worth visiting anymore
The incoming Democrat government will have to be careful not to undo
those things.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 03:05:13 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Oh, NYC is about to elect a 'socialist'/commie mayor.
This will DOOM this huge city. Humans are suckers for
propaganda/causes/ideology. NOT great.
At this point in her life my ex isn't able to leave NYC but I feel bad for her. She supports Sliwa but that's a hopeless cause.
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 23:20:13 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Compare your car’s antiskid braking system: it’s got to respond within >> milliseconds, with no time for human intervention, whether from you the
driver, or anyone else. And it’s got no time to crash with any
“alarms”: it’s got to respond reliably, time and time again,
over the period of a design life measured not in the couple of weeks or
so of an Apollo Moon mission, but in years.
It's definitely a non-trivial application. But you only asked about "simpler," which is vague and hard to quantify, and gave no other
criteria. ABS is certainly time-critical, but it's also a matter of a
couple sensors and fundamentally linear physical forces; is that more or
less "complex" than full 6DOF spacecraft navigation?
The old speaker hardware is there exactly as it was. If they put a chip,
it handles exactly the same, maybe with more features. But in Linux you
don't have access to it from userland.
On 2025-08-15 01:05, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:08:17 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The old speaker hardware is there exactly as it was. If they put a chip, >>> it handles exactly the same, maybe with more features. But in Linux you
don't have access to it from userland.
I don’t think that exists any more. I can remember the Emacs “ding”
function causing a beep on an older machine of mine, but on my current one >> it does nothing.
That's usually because the internal speaker was not installed, boxes "forget" to put it. You have to buy it separately. My boxes have it, and it does beep.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:08:17 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The old speaker hardware is there exactly as it was. If they put a chip,
it handles exactly the same, maybe with more features. But in Linux you
don't have access to it from userland.
I don’t think that exists any more. I can remember the Emacs “ding” function causing a beep on an older machine of mine, but on my current one
it does nothing.
On 14/08/2025 1:43 pm, Bobbie Sellers wrote> On 8/13/25 18:00, rbowman
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 00:35:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
wrote:
“Democracy is the worst system in the world ... apart from all
the others.” -- Winston Churchill
Churchill should have taken up basset breeding and never have been
heard from again after his WWI disaster.
That is your opinion of Churchill without whose leadership the UK
might well have been speaking German by this time. I loved his
evaluation of the Mauser auto-pistol which all the villains in my SF
comic books seemed to use. Buck Rogers in the 24th Century and the
Lost Planet Airmen stories. He said that the accuracy was such that
it was best pressed into the individual attacking before firing. That
was I believe before WW I as he was shooting from horseback.
bliss
Hmm! I thought it was "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century" .... or was that
a difference between the Comics and T.V.??
On 14/08/2025 15:09, Daniel70 wrote:
On 14/08/2025 10:54 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:47:38 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Geography
was gone whereas in my 1940s and 1950s curriculum it was a bane
but before the names of certain areas were changed we knew
where they were and what the important products were.
Ah yes, All that knowledge about 1950's African geography that is
utterly
useless today. I don't know how much longer it lasted but in my high
school anyone aspiring to college took two years of Latin before
choosing
a modern language, German for engineers, French for the artsy crafty
types. That was the public high school. The Catholic high school also
taught Latin of course and we would argue about pronunciations.
Because of the 'population explosion' following WWII, my Catholic
Primary School was over-flowing so for Grade Six, they kicked us boys
across the road to the Marist Brothers (Boys) High School where we
studied French and Latin ... and our results for those two subjects
determined if we continued in the "Languages Stream" or went with
"Maths/Science Stream".
I was fortunate. After the 'oh shit' moment when Sputnik was lost theyI think I can still count from One to Ten in French .... that's about
ramped up science and math in grade school.
my limit!!
Oddly enough I can maintain a basic conversation in French, but I have
lost all my Latin.
If I was in the USA I would learn Spanish
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 20:56:55 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Democrats are Left of Center where they belong as the
the Left is the side of the workers who keep things running while the
Right believes his lies such as the present Crime Wave he talked about
today as an excuse to move Troops and FBI into the District of Columbus
to shove the homeless out of visibility.
Trump is out of his mind if he has one. If he has a mind it has been
corrupted by his narcissism to the point he belives his endless lies.
The Left threw the workers under the bus a long time ago in favor of intersectionality and all that good stuff. I don't agree with him but I respect an old school socialist like Sanders. Of course the Democrats
stabbed him in the back twice. If I were him I would have run as an independent just to return the favor.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:37:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think you underestimate us, we realise that both have a vested
interest in destroying us. The EU especially. We are to the EU as
Ukraine is to Russia. An unwanted rebellion against their dictatorship.
Not quite. You didn't have Rice, Power, Clinton, and Nuland running
Brexit.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:06:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 01:57, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:47:12 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Incorrect. He was the first to unequivocally stand behind Ukraine.
That's what I said :) Britain standing behind the Ukraine was like
Britain standing behind Poland in '39. 'Let's you and him fight'
Mmm. I detect some penis envy here.
The whole of Europe is now doing what America lacks the guts to do.
Supporting Ukraine 100% *because* they are doing our job for us. If
Ukraine falls, Poland, Estonia Lithuania and Latvia are next. And they
have all the Soviet T shirts to remind then what its like living under
a police state of total corruption.
Swiftly followed by Alaska...
No penis envy; it's time Europe handles its own problem. Had the US not
stuck its nose in during WWI the 20th century probably would have been
much more pleasant. Had Balfour not paid off Weizmann for his acetone synthesis method the 21st century might be running more smoothly too.
Wilson ran on 'he kept us out of war'. He lied. Roosevelt floated out the same line. He lied. Maybe Trump can pull it off.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 10:58:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But they decided to instead seduce the moderately intelligent by
providing them with a sense of superiority and the impression that they
were educated, when they were merely indoctrinated.
Their 'arguments' give parrots a bad name.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:10:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The UK, a leading trading power and financial center, is the second
largest economy in Europe after Germany.
Ironic, isn't it. WWI was an attempt to bottle up a unified Germany that
had finally made it to the industrial revolution. Two wars later after a concerted effort to turn Germany into a backward agrarian state and...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:03:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And guess why we support Ukraine. The Russian federation DOES have a
military force.
That would smell better if Orange Revolution wasn't another US project.
Prior to that Russia's biggest beef was somehow all the oil they put into pipelines traversing the Ukraine didn't come out on the other end.
True, Russia is sensitive about the NATO expansion up to its front door
but Kennedy got a little testy about the Soviets setting up house in Cuba too.
I'll have to admit Britain was fairly good at playing what Kipling called
The Great Game. After the US inherited the space at the game board after
WWII it proved to be quite inept.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 03:05:13 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Oh, NYC is about to elect a 'socialist'/commie mayor.
This will DOOM this huge city. Humans are suckers for
propaganda/causes/ideology. NOT great.
At this point in her life my ex isn't able to leave NYC but I feel bad for her. She supports Sliwa but that's a hopeless cause.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:26:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Trump and MAGA are an extremely high price to pay to get rid of the
Marxists. :-(
Getting rid of KPD took extreme measures too. Not too many 'Republicans'
have the balls or we wouldn't be at this point. You don't compromise with rabid wolves. Apologies to the fine, upstanding canines that keep the deer
in check.
Same as London. London is not worth visiting anymore
At one time I thought about visiting Europe but I've always been afraid it would be the same shit, different day. I would probably enjoy the Lakes District and Schwarzwald but I can find scenery close to home without
flying into Heathrow or some other major airport.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:08:17 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The old speaker hardware is there exactly as it was. If they put a chip,
it handles exactly the same, maybe with more features. But in Linux you
don't have access to it from userland.
I don’t think that exists any more. I can remember the Emacs “ding” function causing a beep on an older machine of mine, but on my current one
it does nothing.
On 2025-08-15 01:05, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:08:17 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The old speaker hardware is there exactly as it was. If they put a chip, >>> it handles exactly the same, maybe with more features. But in Linux you
don't have access to it from userland.
I don’t think that exists any more. I can remember the Emacs “ding”
function causing a beep on an older machine of mine, but on my current
one
it does nothing.
That's usually because the internal speaker was not installed, boxes
"forget" to put it. You have to buy it separately. My boxes have it, and
it does beep.
On the East Coast you would likely be speaking German as Hitlerhad
his plans to bomb NYC and DC.white
Plus we would not enjoy all those Jewish and other than strictly
comedians on TV.
On the West Coast we would be speaking Japanese and Englishbecause
the Japanese would have had us.
Maybe the inter-mountain states would be full of gorilla fighters
harassing
the troops trying to move in from the East and West.
Phillip K. Dick "the Man in the High Castle" and other speculative
fiction
stories>
Facts are hard to refute so do not try to soothe me with
lies from the right.
I once had a "Mouser/Luger-type" pistol - suprisingly DELICATE.
LOOK cool, BUT ......
Maybe everyone should learn Mandarin ???
How do you say "Yes master !" ???
On 8/14/25 13:02, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:10:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:To bottle up a unified Germany?
The UK, a leading trading power and financial center, is the second
largest economy in Europe after Germany.
Ironic, isn't it. WWI was an attempt to bottle up a unified Germany
that had finally made it to the industrial revolution. Two wars later
after a concerted effort to turn Germany into a backward agrarian state
and...
On 8/14/25 3:23 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 20:56:55 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The Democrats are Left of Center where they belong as the
the Left is the side of the workers who keep things running while the
Right believes his lies such as the present Crime Wave he talked about
today as an excuse to move Troops and FBI into the District of
Columbus to shove the homeless out of visibility.
Trump is out of his mind if he has one. If he has a mind it has been
corrupted by his narcissism to the point he belives his endless lies.
The Left threw the workers under the bus a long time ago in favor of
intersectionality and all that good stuff. I don't agree with him but I
respect an old school socialist like Sanders. Of course the Democrats
stabbed him in the back twice. If I were him I would have run as an
independent just to return the favor.
Sorry, but you REALLY don't want Govt-By-Bernie ...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:37:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Clinton? Well we had Boris, who is similar.
I think you underestimate us, we realise that both have a vested
interest in destroying us. The EU especially. We are to the EU as
Ukraine is to Russia. An unwanted rebellion against their dictatorship.
Not quite. You didn't have Rice, Power, Clinton, and Nuland running
Brexit.
On 8/14/25 3:26 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:37:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think you underestimate us, we realise that both have a vested
interest in destroying us. The EU especially. We are to the EU as
Ukraine is to Russia. An unwanted rebellion against their dictatorship.
Not quite. You didn't have Rice, Power, Clinton, and Nuland running
Brexit.
I *do* rec that the UK sticks with the Brexit.
The EU had nothing good in mind for the UK.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:06:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 01:57, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:47:12 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Incorrect. He was the first to unequivocally stand behind Ukraine.
That's what I said :) Britain standing behind the Ukraine was like
Britain standing behind Poland in '39. 'Let's you and him fight'
Mmm. I detect some penis envy here.
The whole of Europe is now doing what America lacks the guts to do.
Supporting Ukraine 100% *because* they are doing our job for us. If
Ukraine falls, Poland, Estonia Lithuania and Latvia are next. And they
have all the Soviet T shirts to remind then what its like living under
a police state of total corruption.
Swiftly followed by Alaska...
No penis envy; it's time Europe handles its own problem. Had the US not
stuck its nose in during WWI the 20th century probably would have been
much more pleasant. Had Balfour not paid off Weizmann for his acetone synthesis method the 21st century might be running more smoothly too.
Wilson ran on 'he kept us out of war'. He lied. Roosevelt floated out the same line. He lied. Maybe Trump can pull it off.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 23:26:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I once had a "Mouser/Luger-type" pistol - suprisingly DELICATE.
LOOK cool, BUT ......
That whole hinge design looks problematic and expensive but I guess they worked adequately. The P38 was an excellent replacement for the P08 and
some of the design features live on. The C96 (broomhandle Mauser) probably got copied more than either of the other two.
On 2025-08-14, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Wilson ran on 'he kept us out of war'. He lied. Roosevelt floated out the
same line. He lied. Maybe Trump can pull it off.
If for no other reason than that he'll have the country too busy with
civil war to get involved with anyone else.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 13:04:43 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Facts are hard to refute so do not try to soothe me with
lies from the right.
I'm well beyond trying to soothe anyone. You have your facts and I have
mine.
Clue - never let Germans rule ANYTHING.
Just sayin'
On 8/14/25 12:34, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:06:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 01:57, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 22:47:12 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Incorrect. He was the first to unequivocally stand behind Ukraine.
That's what I said :) Britain standing behind the Ukraine was like
Britain standing behind Poland in '39. 'Let's you and him fight'
Mmm. I detect some penis envy here.
The whole of Europe is now doing what America lacks the guts to do.
Supporting Ukraine 100% *because* they are doing our job for us. If
Ukraine falls, Poland, Estonia Lithuania and Latvia are next. And they
have all the Soviet T shirts to remind then what its like living under >>> a police state of total corruption.
Swiftly followed by Alaska...
No penis envy; it's time Europe handles its own problem. Had the US not
stuck its nose in during WWI the 20th century probably would have been
much more pleasant. Had Balfour not paid off Weizmann for his acetone
synthesis method the 21st century might be running more smoothly too.
On the East Coast you would likely be speaking German as Hitler had his plans to bomb NYC and DC.
Plus we would not enjoy all those Jewish and other than strictly white
comedians on TV.
On the West Coast we would be speaking Japanese and English because the Japanese would have had us.
Maybe the inter-mountain states would be full of gorilla fighters harassing
the troops trying to move in from the East and West.
Phillip K. Dick "the Man in the High Castle" and other speculative fiction
stories>
Wilson ran on 'he kept us out of war'. He lied. Roosevelt floated out the
same line. He lied. Maybe Trump can pull it off.
Sometimes the intent is defeated by the situation.
Roosevelt was forced by the Japanese but I dunno about Wilson's thoughts on the matter. Roosevelt was an Anglophile and wanted to
go to the aid of the UK and the rest of the European states but the
NAZIs financed the America First movement then and held rallies even
at Madison Square Garden in NYC. Their goal was the same as yours absolute isolationism unless they could like old man Kennedy make
a profit dealing with the adversaries and I think a Bush was there
as well. The rich people in the USA wanted a coup to remove
Roosevelt because of the taxes on them he had to impose to help
the nation recover from that really Great Depression which unregulated banking and investment as well as GOP tariffs had landed us in.
The miscalculated and got a retired Marine General to head their
conspiracy and he turned them in. Loyalty to the Constitution
don't you know.
Wilson by the way was an idealist as see the League of Nations
but he was also a rabid racist and fired all the non-whites working
for the Federal Government that he could. Apparently the League
of Nations were contaminated by the same racism as when Japan
asked for the repeal of racist exclusions they were denied. As a
result Japan went home in a huff and returned with warships.
Facts are hard to refute so do not try to soothe me with
lies from the right.
bliss
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:10:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The UK, a leading trading power and financial center, is the second
largest economy in Europe after Germany.
Ironic, isn't it. WWI was an attempt to bottle up a unified Germany that
had finally made it to the industrial revolution. Two wars later after a concerted effort to turn Germany into a backward agrarian state and...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:03:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And guess why we support Ukraine. The Russian federation DOES have a
military force.
That would smell better if Orange Revolution wasn't another US project.
Prior to that Russia's biggest beef was somehow all the oil they put into pipelines traversing the Ukraine didn't come out on the other end.
True, Russia is sensitive about the NATO expansion up to its front door
but Kennedy got a little testy about the Soviets setting up house in Cuba too.
I'll have to admit Britain was fairly good at playing what Kipling called
The Great Game. After the US inherited the space at the game board after
WWII it proved to be quite inept.
Attacking the SU, AH thought we capitalists would get behind him but Lend-Lease which shipped the Soviets a great deal of war material fromOur greatest mistake was in not letting Hitler destroy the Soviet Union
the USA must have disabused him of that idea.
Fortunately he learned nothing from Napoleon's example of defeat
by the Russian Winter. So he enjoyed the same sort of defeat.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:22:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 06:20, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The GOP is worthless in taking care of the nation rather thanSo goes the 'Libral' narrative.
the
wealthiest.
But look at who *they* took care of...
Staying in power by winning elections takes money, lots of money. $5 from
Joe Sixpack doesn't buy much. $5 million from EvilCorp, AIPAC, BigPharma
etc gets you a place of speed dial.
The Supremes have pulled some crap but Citizens United stands out as one
of their worst.
On 8/14/25 3:36 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 10:58:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But they decided to instead seduce the moderately intelligent by
providing them with a sense of superiority and the impression that they
were educated, when they were merely indoctrinated.
Their 'arguments' give parrots a bad name.
:-)
Mr. Natural has it right.
Propaganda efforts are NOT limited to the
2-digit set ...
On 2025-08-14, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would switch to
French when they didn't want the kids to know what was going on. Some of
the kids could speak French; that was a ball when they hit the high school >> French class. Quebec French got a divorce from Parisian French about 300
years ago.
The Canadian schools I went to taught Parisian French.
I guess they didn't want us speaking joual like those
low-lifes in Montreal.
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would switch to
French when they didn't want the kids to know what was going on.
He has characterized himself as a Socialist Democrat. I.E. he
believes in Democracy and a degree of Socialism
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:26:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Trump and MAGA are an extremely high price to pay to get rid of the
Marxists. :-(
Getting rid of KPD took extreme measures too. Not too many 'Republicans'
have the balls or we wouldn't be at this point. You don't compromise with rabid wolves. Apologies to the fine, upstanding canines that keep the deer
in check.
Same as London. London is not worth visiting anymore
At one time I thought about visiting Europe but I've always been afraid it would be the same shit, different day. I would probably enjoy the Lakes District and Schwarzwald but I can find scenery close to home without
flying into Heathrow or some other major airport.
On 8/14/25 4:13 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:03:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And guess why we support Ukraine. The Russian federation DOES have a
military force.
That would smell better if Orange Revolution wasn't another US project.
Prior to that Russia's biggest beef was somehow all the oil they put into
pipelines traversing the Ukraine didn't come out on the other end.
True, Russia is sensitive about the NATO expansion up to its front door
but Kennedy got a little testy about the Soviets setting up house in Cuba
too.
I'll have to admit Britain was fairly good at playing what Kipling called
The Great Game. After the US inherited the space at the game board after
WWII it proved to be quite inept.
The USA is kind of, well, scatterbrained.
Advantage, foes can't really predict future moves.
On 8/14/25 4:02 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:10:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The UK, a leading trading power and financial center, is the second
largest economy in Europe after Germany.
Ironic, isn't it. WWI was an attempt to bottle up a unified Germany that
had finally made it to the industrial revolution. Two wars later after a
concerted effort to turn Germany into a backward agrarian state and...
Sorry, Germans could not be trusted with Too Much Power.
Goes to their heads and .......
On 8/14/25 12:26 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 15:09, Daniel70 wrote:
On 14/08/2025 10:54 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:47:38 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Geography
was gone whereas in my 1940s and 1950s curriculum it was a bane
but before the names of certain areas were changed we knew
where they were and what the important products were.
Ah yes, All that knowledge about 1950's African geography that is
utterly
useless today. I don't know how much longer it lasted but in my high
school anyone aspiring to college took two years of Latin before
choosing
a modern language, German for engineers, French for the artsy crafty
types. That was the public high school. The Catholic high school also
taught Latin of course and we would argue about pronunciations.
Because of the 'population explosion' following WWII, my Catholic
Primary School was over-flowing so for Grade Six, they kicked us boys
across the road to the Marist Brothers (Boys) High School where we
studied French and Latin ... and our results for those two subjects
determined if we continued in the "Languages Stream" or went with
"Maths/Science Stream".
I was fortunate. After the 'oh shit' moment when Sputnik was lost they >>>> ramped up science and math in grade school.I think I can still count from One to Ten in French .... that's about
my limit!!
Oddly enough I can maintain a basic conversation in French, but I have
lost all my Latin.
If I was in the USA I would learn Spanish
Maybe everyone should learn Mandarin ???
How do you say "Yes master !" ???
On 8/14/25 4:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 03:05:13 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Oh, NYC is about to elect a 'socialist'/commie mayor.
This will DOOM this huge city. Humans are suckers for
propaganda/causes/ideology. NOT great.
At this point in her life my ex isn't able to leave NYC but I feel bad
for
her. She supports Sliwa but that's a hopeless cause.
Silwa probably has the most useful perspective - but
he is NOT going to be elected. It'll be the commie
fanatic instead.
Then the whole city implodes ....
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 13:04:43 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On the East Coast you would likely be speaking German as Hitler had
his plans to bomb NYC and DC. Plus we would not enjoy all those
Jewish and other than strictly white comedians on TV.
No Adam Sandler? I would be heartbroken. My German is a bit rusty
but I could get up to speed.
On the West Coast we would be speaking Japanese and English
because the Japanese would have had us. Maybe the inter-mountain
states would be full of gorilla fighters harassing the troops
trying to move in from the East and West.
Phillip K. Dick "the Man in the High Castle" and other speculative
fiction stories>
I read the book and also watched the TV series. Strange ending. I
rather liked John Smith.
On 8/14/25 4:35 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:26:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Trump and MAGA are an extremely high price to pay to get rid of the
Marxists. :-(
Getting rid of KPD took extreme measures too. Not too many 'Republicans'
have the balls or we wouldn't be at this point. You don't compromise with
rabid wolves. Apologies to the fine, upstanding canines that keep the
deer
in check.
Same as London. London is not worth visiting anymore
At one time I thought about visiting Europe but I've always been
afraid it
would be the same shit, different day. I would probably enjoy the Lakes
District and Schwarzwald but I can find scenery close to home without
flying into Heathrow or some other major airport.
I would *never* visit the UK at this time ...
A disaster in quick progress.
The EU isn't much better alas.
Why did they elect leftists/socialists/commies ?
All the "free money" propaganda maybe ... people,
usually ignorant peasants, ALWAYS fall for that.
On 8/14/25 7:05 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:08:17 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The old speaker hardware is there exactly as it was. If they put a chip, >>> it handles exactly the same, maybe with more features. But in Linux you
don't have access to it from userland.
I don’t think that exists any more. I can remember the Emacs “ding”
function causing a beep on an older machine of mine, but on my current
one
it does nothing.
Most older PCs and such - the speaker was run from
a processor pin ... an 8-bit synth/combined sound
from 'pin banging'. It was only meant to go "beep"
after all.
Now, everything is an 'audio chip'. Much more
complex.
In theory you COULD reproduce the old system.
However you'd kinda have to seriously hack the
kernel. Next update the 'fixes' go away.
On 15/08/2025 07:56, c186282 wrote:
Now, everything is an 'audio chip'. Much moreWell no., It's just a DAC that's all. Run by a bit banger.
complex.
More hifi, but not complicated, Just precise.
On 15/08/2025 10:32 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/08/2025 07:56, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
Now, everything is an 'audio chip'. Much moreWell no., It's just a DAC that's all. Run by a bit banger.
complex.
More hifi, but not complicated, Just precise.
DAC == hifi ..... I don't think so!! ;-P
On 8/14/25 7:28 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-15 01:05, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:08:17 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The old speaker hardware is there exactly as it was. If they put a chip, >>>> it handles exactly the same, maybe with more features. But in Linux you >>>> don't have access to it from userland.
I don’t think that exists any more. I can remember the Emacs “ding” >>> function causing a beep on an older machine of mine, but on my current one >>> it does nothing.
That's usually because the internal speaker was not installed, boxes "forget" to put it. You have to buy it separately. My boxes have it, and it does beep.
I've one modern desktop MB ... NO real "speaker"
connection. All goes through a 'sound chip' which
is vastly more complicated.
PI, Ard ... yes you CAN do the old "beep" using
a pin. PC's ... now ... basically NOT unless you
want to hand-wire to the CPU.
If you like a bit of amusing and rather good folk-jazz listen to Al
Stewart's album 'between the wars' and his satirical take on the 'League
of Notions'
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Some of them even care. I do believe Bill Gates actually cares. A little
bit.
Yes, but about what?
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian not that can
be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
On 14/08/2025 20:26, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:37:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Clinton? Well we had Boris, who is similar.
I think you underestimate us, we realise that both have a vested
interest in destroying us. The EU especially. We are to the EU as
Ukraine is to Russia. An unwanted rebellion against their
dictatorship.
Not quite. You didn't have Rice, Power, Clinton, and Nuland running
Brexit.
Nobody was totally innocent in WW-2.Even the Japanese Officer in charge of that attack
That includes the USA - became a major irritant/threat
to Japan and its ambitions. Pearl Harbor was NOT a
fluke, SOMETHING was coming.
The Euros were WAY too forgiving of the NAZIsWell it was its own nation and in those days the
too early on ... "economic miracles" and such.
This let them get WAY too far ahead.
Germans - WAY too gullible to the propagandaThe very hard terms of the WW I peace treaties
of Empire and Superiority.
It seems rare where just ONE party can be held
guilty for a huge war.
On 15/08/2025 19:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Some of them even care. I do believe Bill Gates actually cares. A little >>> bit.
Yes, but about what?
Ordinary peepul.
It's very rare in rich powerful or successful peepul
And if you welsh on them, the whole of Europe will remember forever.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 13:04:43 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On the East Coast you would likely be speaking German as Hitlerhad
his plans to bomb NYC and DC.white
Plus we would not enjoy all those Jewish and other than strictly
comedians on TV.
No Adam Sandler? I would be heartbroken. My German is a bit rusty but I
could get up to speed.
On the West Coast we would be speaking Japanese and Englishbecause
the Japanese would have had us.
Maybe the inter-mountain states would be full of gorilla fighters
harassing
the troops trying to move in from the East and West.
Phillip K. Dick "the Man in the High Castle" and other speculative
fiction
stories>
I read the book and also watched the TV series. Strange ending. I rather liked John Smith.
The thing is, that the Orange revolution was actually supported by the people, CIA funded or not.
Don't think any oil traverses Ukraine, just gas.
True, Russia is sensitive about the NATO expansion up to its front doorIf Russia was sensitive about NATO it wouldn't have started a war that
but Kennedy got a little testy about the Soviets setting up house in
Cuba too.
has forced its neighbours to join NATO.
I'll have to admit Britain was fairly good at playing what Kipling
called The Great Game. After the US inherited the space at the game
board after WWII it proved to be quite inept.
We had an education system that taught it.
I recommend Rudyard Kipling's autobiography of his schooldays. Stalky &
Co, for a fairly accurate if spiced up a bit representation of the
flavour of those times.
Thoroughly illiberal, but effective.
Do a Muslim-at-prayer sort of grovel and you will get by.
The phrase is 'kow tow'.
On 14/08/2025 20:54, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-14, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:Pity the schools in the USA don't teach Oxford English.
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would switch to
French when they didn't want the kids to know what was going on. Some
of the kids could speak French; that was a ball when they hit the high
school French class. Quebec French got a divorce from Parisian French
about 300 years ago.
The Canadian schools I went to taught Parisian French.
I guess they didn't want us speaking joual like those low-lifes in
Montreal.
Things have moved on from the 17th century. Except in Appalachia.
On 15/08/2025 5:54 pm, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 13:04:43 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On the East Coast you would likely be speaking German as Hitler had
his plans to bomb NYC and DC. Plus we would not enjoy all those
Jewish and other than strictly white comedians on TV.
No Adam Sandler? I would be heartbroken. My German is a bit rusty
but I could get up to speed.
On the West Coast we would be speaking Japanese and English because
the Japanese would have had us. Maybe the inter-mountain
states would be full of gorilla fighters harassing the troops
trying to move in from the East and West.
Phillip K. Dick "the Man in the High Castle" and other speculative
fiction stories>
I read the book and also watched the TV series. Strange ending. I
rather liked John Smith.
Hmm!! "John Smith"?? That's Doctor Who's alter-ego!! ;-P
On 14/08/2025 21:02, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:10:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:I don't think anyone really knows what WWI was all about.
The UK, a leading trading power and financial center, is the second
largest economy in Europe after Germany.
Ironic, isn't it. WWI was an attempt to bottle up a unified Germany
that had finally made it to the industrial revolution. Two wars later
after a concerted effort to turn Germany into a backward agrarian state
and...
There was deep distrust of Germany as a European power trying to become
a colonial power, which of course was not on. British French Spanish Portugese and the Dutch had all that sewn up.
As did Austria Hungary in Eastern Europe.
I mean who did the Germans think they were?
I have no idea why the USA got involved in WWI at all. They were in the
main fucking useless.
But rich.
And wanted to play in the big boys games.
My sister is married to an ex Nazi.
He Believes in the EU utterly. He believes that only Germany is
organised and rational enough to Run Europe.
He doesn't understand why Britain can't just accept that and let them.
Like all the other EU countries do.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:00:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The thing is, that the Orange revolution was actually supported by the
people, CIA funded or not.
Fed enough propaganda the people will support anything. To put it into
your context, Trump got elected twice, didn't he?
Don't think any oil traverses Ukraine, just gas.
My bad. It wasn't a major focal point at the timme. I just remembered that the shrinkage tended to piss off Gazprom. Sort of embarrassing but while
the US has plenty of gas the Jones Act makes it impossible to ship it
between US ports and building pipelines, even in the middle of nowhere, triggers endless suits. During a very cold winter a few years back the New England states bought Russian gas, suitably passed through enough hands to remove the Cyrillic labeling.
The same problem is why the US is so eager for Germany to buy US LNG
rather than the cheaper Russian gas.
True, Russia is sensitive about the NATO expansion up to its front doorIf Russia was sensitive about NATO it wouldn't have started a war that
but Kennedy got a little testy about the Soviets setting up house in
Cuba too.
has forced its neighbours to join NATO.
I believe you have the cart before the horse. NATO was expanding before
the current conflict. I'd have to look up the particulars but I think it
was the Obama administration that wanted to put missile bases in Poland to
'protect against the Middle Eastern threat'. Ah, Wikipedia!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ United_States_missile_defense_complex_in_Poland
I'll have to admit Britain was fairly good at playing what Kipling
called The Great Game. After the US inherited the space at the game
board after WWII it proved to be quite inept.
We had an education system that taught it.
I recommend Rudyard Kipling's autobiography of his schooldays. Stalky &
Co, for a fairly accurate if spiced up a bit representation of the
flavour of those times.
Thoroughly illiberal, but effective.
I read it several times in my youth along with 'Kim'. 'Kim' got me
interested in eastern religions and was really about fun and games with Russia in Afghanistan. When the US played the game they wound up with the Taliban.
'Stalky' sort of hinted about it and CS Lewis was slightly more explicit
in his autobiography but the British public school system seemed to teach faggotry along with gamesmanship.
'Public school' completely confuses Americans of course. Some things don't translate well even in English to English.
If you like a bit of amusing and rather good folk-jazz listen to Al
Stewart's album 'between the wars' and his satirical take on the 'League
of Notions'
On 14/08/2025 20:48, rbowman wrote:
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would switch to
French when they didn't want the kids to know what was going on.
"Pas devant les domestiques..."
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 13:04:43 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Facts are hard to refute so do not try to soothe me with
lies from the right.
I'm well beyond trying to soothe anyone. You have your facts and I have
mine.
Forgetting the basic rule of democracy, that if you give the vote to
plebs because its part of your democratic ideology, you cant moan when
they elect someone else.
Parents were unhappy with their kids getting low grades, so they changed
the education system to give them all full Marx...
On 15/08/2025 08:56, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 13:04:43 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Facts are hard to refute so do not try to soothe me with
lies from the right.
I'm well beyond trying to soothe anyone. You have your facts and I have
mine.
But your 'facts' are relative to *your* worldview. Which makes them in
the end little better than opinions.
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian not that
can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
The USA has no history. Europe is the product of 10,000 years of Putins
and Trumps , Mussolinis, Francos and Hitlers, Napoleons and Richard the Lionhearts, Saladins and all the Kings and Barons ...we have *all* the
T shirts.
On 8/15/25 4:09 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 23:26:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I once had a "Mouser/Luger-type" pistol - suprisingly DELICATE.
LOOK cool, BUT ......
That whole hinge design looks problematic and expensive but I guess
they worked adequately. The P38 was an excellent replacement for the
P08 and some of the design features live on. The C96 (broomhandle
Mauser) probably got copied more than either of the other two.
You can crush the mag in one hand like a beer can.
The odd 'hinge' design has a rep for jamming too unless you keep it
in absolutely perfect condition,
kinda difficult on a battlefield. Probably why it was mostly high
officers who carried the things.
Out in the muck ... the .455 Webley was much more sure.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:30:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Parents were unhappy with their kids getting low grades, so they changed
the education system to give them all full Marx...
When I briefly taught the classes used homogeneous groups, A, B, C, D. The kids, their parents, and everyone in the system understood D was Dumb.
They were shuffled through until they were old enough to get working
papers.
The curriculum was the same for all but there wasn't an expectation the
the D kids would really pick up on the Sumerian sexagesimal numeral
system. That didn't do them justice; they should have been taught how to
make change in the decimal system but that would recognize natural inequality.
That was in the '60s; it went downhill from there.
Many gay and other sexual deviate persons come out of all sorts
of schools but the use of fag by the Public Schools was something else
and the title of a upper classman's fag was connected to the task of
fetching firewood. Also check on faggotry as a decoration on clothing.
On 2025-08-15, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:44:35 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Forgetting the basic rule of democracy, that if you give the vote to
plebs because its part of your democratic ideology, you cant moan when
they elect someone else.
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/h-l-mencken-on-democracy-government-and-
politics/
7. Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
9. As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and >> more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day >> the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last and
the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
I really wish a modern day Mencken existed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken
Me too. He's my favourite cynic. Quoting someone else's .sig:
Puritanism: the hunting fear that someone, somewhere,
may be happy.
Our greatest mistake was in not letting Hitler destroy the Soviet Union
as it was then.
WE *paid* Stalin to grab all of eastern Europe,.
Whereas we could have let Hitler strut his stuff and then when
exhhasted, rolled up all of Europe including Ukraine into one more or
less open bloc
Nobody was totally innocent in WW-2.
That includes the USA - became a major irritant/threat to Japan and its ambitions. Pearl Harbor was NOT a fluke, SOMETHING was coming.]
On 15/08/2025 07:33, c186282 wrote:
On 8/14/25 4:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 03:05:13 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Oh, NYC is about to elect a 'socialist'/commie mayor.
This will DOOM this huge city. Humans are suckers for
propaganda/causes/ideology. NOT great.
At this point in her life my ex isn't able to leave NYC but I feel bad
for her. She supports Sliwa but that's a hopeless cause.
Silwa probably has the most useful perspective - but he is NOT
going to be elected. It'll be the commie fanatic instead.
Then the whole city implodes ....
Yup.
Just hope it's not White Flight to Wyoming...
On 8/14/25 4:13 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:03:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And guess why we support Ukraine. The Russian federation DOES have a
military force.
That would smell better if Orange Revolution wasn't another US project.
Prior to that Russia's biggest beef was somehow all the oil they put
into pipelines traversing the Ukraine didn't come out on the other end.
True, Russia is sensitive about the NATO expansion up to its front door
but Kennedy got a little testy about the Soviets setting up house in
Cuba too.
I'll have to admit Britain was fairly good at playing what Kipling
called The Great Game. After the US inherited the space at the game
board after WWII it proved to be quite inept.
The USA is kind of, well, scatterbrained.
Advantage, foes can't really predict future moves.
You guys gotta learn how the game really goes.
Not how the rose tinted snake oil salesmen present it to you.
If there was one thing worse than the Democrats, it is Trump.
Think of it as a valuable learning experience
On 15/08/2025 10:32 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well no., It's just a DAC that's all. Run by a bit banger. More
hifi, but not complicated, Just precise.
DAC == hifi ..... I don't think so!! ;-P
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:11:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You guys gotta learn how the game really goes.
Not how the rose tinted snake oil salesmen present it to you.
If there was one thing worse than the Democrats, it is Trump.
Think of it as a valuable learning experience
Camel Harris? Maybe the Democrats learned something. You don't prop u a living corpse until the last minute and ring in someone so unpopular that
she didn't even make it to the primaries and expect a happy outcome.
They would have had a problem ditching a black/white/Indian/female though. Running Madame Pantsuit wasn't a great idea either. I have nothing against women politicians but in a nation of 330 million there has to be one
without an annoying cackle.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:19:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Indeed and since people come here from all over the world we claim
The USA has no history. Europe is the product of 10,000 years of Putins
and Trumps , Mussolinis, Francos and Hitlers, Napoleons and Richard the
Lionhearts, Saladins and all the Kings and Barons ...we have *all* the
T shirts.
The US has history! Why the first white settlement in this state is right down the road! The Jesuits founded it in 1841!
That is sort of recent but the history of the area where i grew up goesthat
way back. Henry Hudson made it all the way up to my hometown in 1609
before he ran out of water. He was sort of lost since he was looking for China but so it goes.
The exact for the founding of New Netherland is a little vague, but 1624 will do. It is worth noting it was not a English until England took it
over after the Third Anglo-Dutch War treaty in 1674. There was always
low key feeling "We ain't New England".battlefields of
For the US it is a pretty historical area. I've walked the
the French and Indian War (Seven Years War) and the Revolution. Gatesbeat
Burgoyne at the Battle of Saratoga. France had been sitting on the fence
and that victory got them off.
You're right, not too much history here. We did fight England twice and
won so it's puzzling why we kept crawling back.
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure.
The problem comes when they start making them
The USA is kind of, well, scatterbrained.
Nah. It's just very very *young*.
Also also, the Italian name for a bassoon is "fagotto", reflecting its resemblance to a bundle of sticks.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 02:19:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Nobody was totally innocent in WW-2.
That includes the USA - became a major irritant/threat to Japan and its
ambitions. Pearl Harbor was NOT a fluke, SOMETHING was coming.]
Roosevelt wanted in and kept poking at Germany but Hitler wasn't taking
the bait. Japan's buttons were easier to push. Great historical mistakes: instead of honoring the mutual defense treaty Hitler should have told
Japan it was on its own.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 02:27:50 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/14/25 4:13 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:03:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And guess why we support Ukraine. The Russian federation DOES have a
military force.
That would smell better if Orange Revolution wasn't another US project.
Prior to that Russia's biggest beef was somehow all the oil they put
into pipelines traversing the Ukraine didn't come out on the other end.
True, Russia is sensitive about the NATO expansion up to its front door
but Kennedy got a little testy about the Soviets setting up house in
Cuba too.
I'll have to admit Britain was fairly good at playing what Kipling
called The Great Game. After the US inherited the space at the game
board after WWII it proved to be quite inept.
The USA is kind of, well, scatterbrained.
Advantage, foes can't really predict future moves.
When you change administrations more frequently that you change your
socks... It might not have been a good plan but Hitler had a plan. He
even wrote a book about it and unlike most politicians tried to put it
into place. Admittedly it was a little harsh. If he had a passel of piss
ant judges blocking every move he would toss them into a KZ to reconsider.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
One consequence of proportional representation is it truly makes us a
multi-party democracy. Currently we have 6 parties in Parliament (3 of
them in coalition to form the Government), and in the previous term we
had 5. That sounds like a recipe for instability, but it’s not. Parties
know they have to cooperate and compromise to get anything done, and
they do.
Doesn't always work. Italy is notorious for collapsing governments.
Belgium didn't have a government for several months a few years ago.
He doesn't understand why Britain can't just accept that and let them.
Like all the other EU countries do.
Let's face it the French are too busy eating great cheese and brilliant bread, drinking wine and having sex.
The italians just like building fast noisy cars. And having sex.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 22:56:51 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
ABS is certainly time-critical, but it's also a matter of a couple
sensors and fundamentally linear physical forces; is that more or
less "complex" than full 6DOF spacecraft navigation?
Safety-critical systems have to have backups, and backups for those
backups. Particularly with no option for “I’m going to manual”.
That...wasn't really an answer to the question.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure.
The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc).
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 00:43:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Also also, the Italian name for a bassoon is "fagotto", reflecting its
resemblance to a bundle of sticks.
There is also the Latin word “fasces” for such a bundle, is there not, from which we get, via Mussolini, “fascism”.
Interesting the way those two concepts are related via a bundle of sticks,
of all things ...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:35:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He doesn't understand why Britain can't just accept that and let them.
Like all the other EU countries do.
Let's face it the French are too busy eating great cheese and brilliant
bread, drinking wine and having sex.
The italians just like building fast noisy cars. And having sex.
Fun† fact: having sex is an important precursor to having children.
Without children to replenish the population, the future of your country becomes more and more doubtful. Unless you depend on immigrants to make up the shortfall. But those locals with a skin colour different to the most likely sources of migrants seem not to like that idea much. So what are
you going to do?
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 08:38:11 -0700, John Ames wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 22:56:51 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
ABS is certainly time-critical, but it's also a matter of a couple
sensors and fundamentally linear physical forces; is that more or
less "complex" than full 6DOF spacecraft navigation?
Safety-critical systems have to have backups, and backups for those
backups. Particularly with no option for “I’m going to manual”.
That...wasn't really an answer to the question.
Feel free to explain why such system features are irrelevant to the
question of what is “complexity” and what is not.
I recently watched an interview with Melinda. I got the impression that
Bill is less than impressed with what she's doing with her share of his money.
I think Joe made a mistake in choosing her as VP. If she had been Attorney General Trump might be in lockup now.
On the other hand, every American still knows Roman numerals -
so they can tell which Super Bowl game is playing.
Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Lucas makes refrigerators too.
K not only had "limited time" (although a HUGE budget)
she had "limited IQ".
K was the latest Dan Quayle ... picked because she was SO TERRIBLE that NOBODY would dare 25th Joe.
FDR knew we NEEDED to get into it, but the EXCUSE was lacking.
Similar probs for Wilson.
So, you kind of quietly INCITE until Something Happens.
According to the manual that came with my Morris Minor, you raised the
bonnet to adjust the carburetter and clean the sparking plugs. The
spare tyre was in the boot.
On 8/15/25 00:56, rbowman wrote:ascertainable
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 13:04:43 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Facts are hard to refute so do not try to soothe me with
lies from the right.
I'm well beyond trying to soothe anyone. You have your facts and I have
mine.
There are only the facts, not yours and not mine but
technicians and scientists. free of political or economic influences.
On 2025-08-15, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Many gay and other sexual deviate persons come out of all sorts
of schools but the use of fag by the Public Schools was something else
and the title of a upper classman's fag was connected to the task of
fetching firewood. Also check on faggotry as a decoration on clothing.
Also also, the Italian name for a bassoon is "fagotto", reflecting its resemblance to a bundle of sticks. In classical music scores, bassoon
notes when marked as cues for other instruments are labeled "Fag.", regardless of the sexual proclivities of the bassoonist.
Doesn't always work. Italy is notorious for collapsing governments.
Belgium didn't have a government for several months a few years ago.
Admittedly Hitler came to power legitimately - and because the
previous order had totally fucked up everything. It was just
horrible. Hitler had a way out of it. Germany went to scraping the
bottom to kings in just a few years. Everybody loved Hitler.
They calmed the Soviet Union down with a
peace treaty dealing with their mutual interests in taking over Poland
and violated that as soon as possible. Just like Trump wanted to dump
NATO in his first term.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure.
The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc).
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 11:52:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 20:26, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:37:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Clinton? Well we had Boris, who is similar.
I think you underestimate us, we realise that both have a vested
interest in destroying us. The EU especially. We are to the EU as
Ukraine is to Russia. An unwanted rebellion against their
dictatorship.
Not quite. You didn't have Rice, Power, Clinton, and Nuland running
Brexit.
In context I meant that crew's hobby of stage managing color revolutions throughout the world. afaik they didn't play a part in the Brexit
movement. Other than the Ukraine their greatest success was utterly destabilizing Libya. It remains to be seen if Syria falls apart
completely. Netanyahu would like a chunk and I think the Turks want the
north so it might just vanish from the map.
As for isolationism we all live on the same
planet and when Canada burns so do the eyes on
the Eastern Seaboard. Pollution comes from all
the nations using fossil fuels and spreads over
the planet like a thin shroud keeping us warmer
than we should be, pumping heat into the oceans
and atmosphere causing alarming storms as
science predicted.
Given the millions of man-years ordinary peepul have spent
re-booting, re-formatting, and re-installing Windows, as well
as working around bad design decisions and outright bugs,
I think we've had enough of that sort of caring.
I recently watched an interview with Melinda. I got the
impression that Bill is less than impressed with what she's
doing with her share of his money.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 20:57:55 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I recently watched an interview with Melinda. I got the impression that
Bill is less than impressed with what she's doing with her share of his
money.
Yeah, well....
https://www.pivotalventures.org/
Bill is interested in the important stuff;
https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-growth-and- opportunity/water-sanitation-and-hygiene/reinvent-the-toilet-challenge- and-expo
Sarcasm aside getting people to stop shitting in the street is an
important first step in the disease control that seems to be one of his
major focal points.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 00:28:11 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/08/2025 10:32 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well no., It's just a DAC that's all. Run by a bit banger. More
hifi, but not complicated, Just precise.
DAC == hifi ..... I don't think so!! ;-P
Watch out for “oversampling”. At one point it somehow became a selling point on its own. All it really was, was a discovery that, in the
design of a DAC, it was easier (i.e. cheaper) to handle a higher
sample rate than it was to provide more sampling levels. But if you
averaged out a suitable number of samples at the higher rate, you
could produce all the necessary in-between levels at the lower, target
rate.
Taking this to its ultimate conclusion, you have “bitstream” DACs,
which only have two output levels: 0% and 100%. But with a sample rate
of 44100 × 65536 × «additional_factor» Hz, an averaging output
low-pass analog filter produces the full range of CD-quality audio.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 00:43:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Many gay and other sexual deviate persons come out of all sorts
of schools but the use of fag by the Public Schools was something else
and the title of a upper classman's fag was connected to the task of
fetching firewood. Also check on faggotry as a decoration on clothing.
Also also, the Italian name for a bassoon is "fagotto", reflecting its
resemblance to a bundle of sticks. In classical music scores, bassoon
notes when marked as cues for other instruments are labeled "Fag.",
regardless of the sexual proclivities of the bassoonist.
And then there are the fags you smoke to really get some images going.
'Stalky' sort of hinted about it and CS Lewis was slightly more
explicit in his autobiography but the British public school system
seemed to teach faggotry along with gamesmanship.
Many gay and other sexual deviate persons come out of all sorts of
schools but the use of fag by the Public Schools was something else
and the title of a upper classman's fag was connected to the task of
fetching firewood. Also check on faggotry as a decoration on
clothing. Engish is a difficult language with many synonyms for the
same thing especially in slang. Stiil more precise than Japanese with
a shortage of exact words.
One thing that was worked into the ciriculum of many schools those in
the USA. England and other nations in the 19th Century was flogging
of school children which gave up a lot of masochism and sadism in
public figures who of course hid it from the public.
'Public school' completely confuses Americans of course. Some
things don't translate well even in English to English.
Of course not but we Americans speak American and you guys speak
British. If I didn't read books about English people and enjoy
English shows I would not realise the various differences.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:00:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The thing is, that the Orange revolution was actually supported by the
people, CIA funded or not.
Fed enough propaganda the people will support anything. To put it into
your context, Trump got elected twice, didn't he?
Don't think any oil traverses Ukraine, just gas.
My bad. It wasn't a major focal point at the timme. I just remembered that the shrinkage tended to piss off Gazprom. Sort of embarrassing but while
the US has plenty of gas the Jones Act makes it impossible to ship it
between US ports and building pipelines, even in the middle of nowhere, triggers endless suits. During a very cold winter a few years back the New England states bought Russian gas, suitably passed through enough hands to remove the Cyrillic labeling.
The same problem is why the US is so eager for Germany to buy US LNG
rather than the cheaper Russian gas.
True, Russia is sensitive about the NATO expansion up to its front doorIf Russia was sensitive about NATO it wouldn't have started a war that
but Kennedy got a little testy about the Soviets setting up house in
Cuba too.
has forced its neighbours to join NATO.
I believe you have the cart before the horse. NATO was expanding before
the current conflict. I'd have to look up the particulars but I think it
was the Obama administration that wanted to put missile bases in Poland to
'protect against the Middle Eastern threat'. Ah, Wikipedia!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ United_States_missile_defense_complex_in_Poland
I'll have to admit Britain was fairly good at playing what Kipling
called The Great Game. After the US inherited the space at the game
board after WWII it proved to be quite inept.
We had an education system that taught it.
I recommend Rudyard Kipling's autobiography of his schooldays. Stalky &
Co, for a fairly accurate if spiced up a bit representation of the
flavour of those times.
Thoroughly illiberal, but effective.
I read it several times in my youth along with 'Kim'. 'Kim' got me
interested in eastern religions and was really about fun and games with Russia in Afghanistan. When the US played the game they wound up with the Taliban.
'Stalky' sort of hinted about it and CS Lewis was slightly more explicit
in his autobiography but the British public school system seemed to teach faggotry along with gamesmanship.
'Public school' completely confuses Americans of course. Some things don't translate well even in English to English.
“Democracy is the worst system in the world ... apart from all the others.” -- Winston Churchill
What on earth makes you think I am an American?Alcohol.
Or support Trump?You support Farage, don't you? Same thing.
On 2025-08-15, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:47:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 20:54, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-14, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:Pity the schools in the USA don't teach Oxford English.
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would switch to >>>>> French when they didn't want the kids to know what was going on. Some >>>>> of the kids could speak French; that was a ball when they hit the high >>>>> school French class. Quebec French got a divorce from Parisian French >>>>> about 300 years ago.
The Canadian schools I went to taught Parisian French.
I guess they didn't want us speaking joual like those low-lifes in
Montreal.
Things have moved on from the 17th century. Except in Appalachia.
They can't even spell in Oxford. 'Tyre', 'kerb' my ass. A bonnet is
something the local Hutterite women wear.
According to the manual that came with my Morris Minor,
you raised the bonnet to adjust the carburetter and clean
the sparking plugs. The spare tyre was in the boot.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:21:11 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If you like a bit of amusing and rather good folk-jazz listen to Al
Stewart's album 'between the wars' and his satirical take on the 'League
of Notions'
Thanks. Not my genre but he is absolutely spot on. History makes a big
deal about Germany invading Sudetanland but doesn't mention that Hungary
and Poland were quick to annex the chunks they wanted. Poland still has
most of Lower Silesia. It's Russian propaganda but I think that deep in
their hearts if the Poles could grab a little bit of the Ukraine they wouldn't object. There's still that Catholic/Orthodox thing after 800
years or so.
Yeah, I'm isolationist. I've read history and a US minding its own
business would be better for the world. It could approach autarky while maintain neutral relationships with a few trading partners. afaik you
can't grow coffee in the continental US. And, yes, give Hawaii back to the Hawaiians, Japanese, or whoever wants it.
Me too. He's my favourite cynic. Quoting someone else's .sig:...haunting...
Puritanism: the hunting fear that someone, somewhere,
may be happy.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:45:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 20:48, rbowman wrote:
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would switch to
French when they didn't want the kids to know what was going on.
"Pas devant les domestiques..."
The maids are deviants?
On the other hand, every American still knows Roman numerals -
so they can tell which Super Bowl game is playing.
Germany went to scraping the bottom to
kings in just a few years. Everybody loved Hitler.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:26:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian not that
can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
I think I'll make a bowl of popcorn, sit back, and watch. I don''t know if
it will help but I am behind Trump's firing of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. It's not Trump, it's not recent, and it doesn't always seem partisan but the pattern for years has been
June Report: Everything is wonderful!
September, spoken in very quiet tones with no headlines: June's report has been revised upward/downward. Typically the number of new jobs is revised downward, inflation is upward. It's very suspicious the revisions are
always in the wrong direction.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:19:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The USA has no history. Europe is the product of 10,000 years of Putins
and Trumps , Mussolinis, Francos and Hitlers, Napoleons and Richard the
Lionhearts, Saladins and all the Kings and Barons ...we have *all* the
T shirts.
The US has history! Why the first white settlement in this state is right down the road! The Jesuits founded it in 1841!
That is sort of recent but the history of the area where i grew up goes
way back. Henry Hudson made it all the way up to my hometown in 1609
before he ran out of water. He was sort of lost since he was looking for China but so it goes.
The exact for the founding of New Netherland is a little vague, but 1624
will do. It is worth noting it was not a English until England took it
over after the Third Anglo-Dutch War treaty in 1674. There was always that low key feeling "We ain't New England".
For the US it is a pretty historical area. I've walked the battlefields of the French and Indian War (Seven Years War) and the Revolution. Gates beat Burgoyne at the Battle of Saratoga. France had been sitting on the fence
and that victory got them off.
You're right, not too much history here. We did fight England twice and
won so it's puzzling why we kept crawling back.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:11:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You guys gotta learn how the game really goes.
Not how the rose tinted snake oil salesmen present it to you.
If there was one thing worse than the Democrats, it is Trump.
Think of it as a valuable learning experience
Camel Harris? Maybe the Democrats learned something. You don't prop u a living corpse until the last minute and ring in someone so unpopular that
she didn't even make it to the primaries and expect a happy outcome.
They would have had a problem ditching a black/white/Indian/female though. Running Madame Pantsuit wasn't a great idea either. I have nothing against women politicians but in a nation of 330 million there has to be one
without an annoying cackle.
On 8/15/25 18:07, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:11:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Kamala was Vice-President and when Joe had lost credibily with the
You guys gotta learn how the game really goes.
Not how the rose tinted snake oil salesmen present it to you.
If there was one thing worse than the Democrats, it is Trump.
Think of it as a valuable learning experience
Camel Harris? Maybe the Democrats learned something. You don't prop
u a living corpse until the last minute and ring in someone so
unpopular that she didn't even make it to the primaries and expect
a happy outcome.
debate she seemed the logical choice. And she had a very limited
amount of time to run in and DJT had been rallying the MAGAns and
some other foks for 4 years with the lies they had been told about
the Democratic Party members by Trump and QAnon, she had at best an
outside chance.
I think Joe made a mistake in choosing her as VP. If she had been
Attorney General Trump might be in lockup now.
They would have had a problem ditching a black/white/Indian/female
though. Running Madame Pantsuit wasn't a great idea either. I have
nothing against women politicians but in a nation of 330 million
there has to be one without an annoying cackle.
Well it is only half at the best estimate of the citizens are women.
The rest are men with far worse habits than an annoying laugh.
Hillary I did not like but I voted for her because I saw right thru a
man who stiffed the workers he imported to plaster his walls. While i
was hospitalized I met a younger woman who had turned only 80
recently and she has mingled with NYC society in her youth and said
that Trump was an asshole even then. I believed her.
A man who has been convicted of multiple frauds, multiple counts of
slander and sexual abuse which he bragged about on TV is chosen by
the Republican Party and wins the Presidency?
If the MAGAns suffer under Trump especially from his Tariffs they are
the ones to blame. He swore the Oath to the Constitution twice at
least but cannot recall if he is supposed to Defend the Constitution.
I swore it about 70 years ago and remember it very well. Trump is
mentally, morally and physically incompetent. The Secret Service
swore an oath to the Constituion as well and should have gotten the incompetent thief locked up by now. bliss - 88 years from FDR and
Harry Truman to Donald Trump or from the top of the mountain to the
cess pit.
On 8/16/25 12:54 AM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure.
The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc).
Well, that was THEN.
And Rome/HRCC had become kind of insufferable
out in the provinces.
All in all, Germans DO like clear, usually
stick-up-the-ass, rules. It's a "national
character" thing.
If you want more generally 'libertine', try France.
On 16/08/2025 12:19 pm, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 00:28:11 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation of an Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples
On 15/08/2025 10:32 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well no., It's just a DAC that's all. Run by a bit banger. More
hifi, but not complicated, Just precise.
DAC == hifi ..... I don't think so!! ;-P
Watch out for “oversampling”. At one point it somehow became a selling >> point on its own. All it really was, was a discovery that, in the
design of a DAC, it was easier (i.e. cheaper) to handle a higher
sample rate than it was to provide more sampling levels. But if you
averaged out a suitable number of samples at the higher rate, you
could produce all the necessary in-between levels at the lower, target
rate.
Taking this to its ultimate conclusion, you have “bitstream” DACs,
which only have two output levels: 0% and 100%. But with a sample rate
of 44100 × 65536 × «additional_factor» Hz, an averaging output
low-pass analog filter produces the full range of CD-quality audio.
per second.
But, then, after some time, our hearing suffers so listening to a CD is
"Good Enough"!!
I'll let the Democrats figure out how they screwed up but they most
certainly did.
K not only had "limited time" (although a HUGE budget)+1.
she had "limited IQ".
K was the latest Dan Quayle ... picked because she
was SO TERRIBLE that NOBODY would dare 25th Joe.
On 8/14/25 12:26 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 15:09, Daniel70 wrote:
On 14/08/2025 10:54 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 14:47:38 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Geography was gone whereas in my 1940s and 1950s curriculum
it was a bane but before the names of certain areas were
changed we knew where they were and what the important
products were.
Ah yes, All that knowledge about 1950's African geography that
is utterly useless today. I don't know how much longer it
lasted but in my high school anyone aspiring to college took
two years of Latin before choosing a modern language, German
for engineers, French for the artsy crafty types. That was the
public high school. The Catholic high school also taught Latin
of course and we would argue about pronunciations.
Because of the 'population explosion' following WWII, my Catholic
Primary School was over-flowing so for Grade Six, they kicked us
boys across the road to the Marist Brothers (Boys) High School
where we studied French and Latin ... and our results for those
two subjects determined if we continued in the "Languages Stream"
or went with "Maths/Science Stream".
I was fortunate. After the 'oh shit' moment when Sputnik wasI think I can still count from One to Ten in French .... that's
lost they ramped up science and math in grade school.
about my limit!!
Oddly enough I can maintain a basic conversation in French, but I
have lost all my Latin.
If I was in the USA I would learn Spanish
Maybe everyone should learn Mandarin ???
How do you say "Yes master !" ???
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 16:26:41 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/15/25 00:56, rbowman wrote:ascertainable
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 13:04:43 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Facts are hard to refute so do not try to soothe me with
lies from the right.
I'm well beyond trying to soothe anyone. You have your facts and I have
mine.
There are only the facts, not yours and not mine but
by
technicians and scientists. free of political or economic influences.
You have a touching faith in The Science.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:56:20 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
They calmed the Soviet Union down with a
peace treaty dealing with their mutual interests in taking over Poland
and violated that as soon as possible. Just like Trump wanted to dump
NATO in his first term.
That was one of the more cynical treaties in history.
Anyone who read
'Mein Kampf', and I'm sure some Soviets did, knew what the goals were.
Stalin was buying time.
The big looser being Poland which had been stab in the back by Germany,
USSR, UK and France. For the peace at the end of the war, Poland has
only been betrayed by UK because France and Germany hadn't a say.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 16:26:41 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/15/25 00:56, rbowman wrote:ascertainable
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 13:04:43 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Facts are hard to refute so do not try to soothe me with
lies from the right.
I'm well beyond trying to soothe anyone. You have your facts and I have >>>> mine.
There are only the facts, not yours and not mine but
by
technicians and scientists. free of political or economic influences.
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They
believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's not.
The religions are based on things said by others and they accept it or
not. It's a real belief because it's based on nothing but accepting what others said long ago as truth.
Both believers and scientists are cherry-picking the facts to support
their claims. But the way cherry-picking is done by scientist is fundamentally different from the way it's done by believers.
The believers are looking for things that comfort their belief. The scientists are looking for things that invalid their claims.
If you take Popper's example saying that all crows are black. Believers
will find a black crow and say: it's black so I'm right. Another one is black, so I'm more right. When scientists are looking for crows which
aren't black. As long as they found new crows and all of them are black,
they found their theory stand. The day they found a craw which aren't
black they'll have to see their theory again.
Science isn't a belief: it's a method. And it's the method which allows scientists to improve. The fact is the same for scientists and for
religious: they found a crow which isn't black or they don't. But the religious guys will throw it away saying it's unimportant when the
scientists will say they'll have to revise their theory.
And the fact is: science improve in the good way when religions improve
in the bad way. When science help the improvement of understanding the
world, the religious are only using their religion to kill others. When
Jesus said: you must love your enemies, the catholics pretending to
follow Jesus here say: kill them all, not only their ennemies but all
who don't agree them. When Jesus spoke about love the catholics here
throw everything related with love to display only hatred of others.
On 15/08/2025 22:20, rbowman wrote:
'Public school' completely confuses Americans of course. Some things don't >> translate well even in English to English.Well the first schools in the UK were private schools run by monasteries.
Public schools were open to anyone with money. Thay taught what rich
people wanted their kids to learn
State schools were introduced for people without. They taught what the
State wanted you to learn.
On 2025-08-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 15/08/2025 22:20, rbowman wrote:
'Public school' completely confuses Americans of course. Some things don't >>> translate well even in English to English.Well the first schools in the UK were private schools run by monasteries. >>
Public schools were open to anyone with money. Thay taught what rich
people wanted their kids to learn
State schools were introduced for people without. They taught what the
State wanted you to learn.
The Company owned the houses
And the Company owned the grammar school
You'll never see an educated cotton mill man
-- Jim & Jesse
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of aggression.
On 16/08/2025 18:04, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
The Company owned the houses
And the Company owned the grammar school You'll never see anHow very Old Labour of you...
educated cotton mill man
-- Jim & Jesse
Farage doesn't want to be a dictator.
Democracy is not there to represent the will of the people. You were
lied to.
We are to the EU as Ukraine is to Russia. An unwanted rebellion against
their dictatorship.
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation of an Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples
per second.
And no one can hear 22kHz.
Vinyl was the biggest heap of crap until the cassette tape came along.
I know. I put meters on them all.
On 16/08/2025 18:04, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 15/08/2025 22:20, rbowman wrote:
'Public school' completely confuses Americans of course. Some thingsWell the first schools in the UK were private schools run by
don't
translate well even in English to English.
monasteries.
Public schools were open to anyone with money. Thay taught what rich
people wanted their kids to learn
State schools were introduced for people without. They taught what the
State wanted you to learn.
The Company owned the houses
And the Company owned the grammar schoolHow very Old Labour of you...
You'll never see an educated cotton mill man
-- Jim & Jesse
Democracy is about checks and balances; it is about recognizing the
truth of the maxim that “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”, and dealing with the consequences thereof.
No. it wasn't. NATO expanded some at the downfall of the Soviet Union,
but it was never aggressive, only defensive.
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of aggression.
Running your tanks down your neighbours front drive and killing their
kids, is.
On 2025-08-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 15/08/2025 22:20, rbowman wrote:
'Public school' completely confuses Americans of course. Some thingsWell the first schools in the UK were private schools run by
don't translate well even in English to English.
monasteries.
Public schools were open to anyone with money. Thay taught what rich
people wanted their kids to learn
State schools were introduced for people without. They taught what the
State wanted you to learn.
The Company owned the houses And the Company owned the grammar
school You'll never see an educated cotton mill man
-- Jim & Jesse
How very Old Labour of you...
Yup, That was more what I was thinking of. What the African wants was
never the vote - he votes tribal anyway - it was a roof, a toilet, clean water, electricity, healthcare, beer and boom boxes.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:04:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Democracy is not there to represent the will of the people. You were
lied to.
It does work better than the alternatives, though.
Let’s face it, *every* political system has to represent, in some form, “the will of the people”. Even totalitarian dictators cannot govern without the consent of the governed.
Both believers and scientists are cherry-picking the facts to support
their claims. But the way cherry-picking is done by scientist is fundamentally different from the way it's done by believers.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation of an
Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples
per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to prove
that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more complex signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate anywhere
in that waveform.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 13:12:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And no one can hear 22kHz.
Some rare people can.
Vinyl was the biggest heap of crap until the cassette tape came along.
I know. I put meters on them all.
And the cassette tape kept on improving, along with the rest of magnetic- tape technology: new kinds of oxide and even plain-metal depositions, new bonding formulations, new noise-reduction techniques, right into the 1990s
as I recall. It was amazing how much “hi-fi” could be packed into a tape that was less than 4mm wide.
Meanwhile, vinyl remained stuck in the 1970s.
Libya at least stopped being a threat.
What we find hard to believe in Europe, is that Americans *still believe
their politicians*.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:14:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup, That was more what I was thinking of. What the African wants was
never the vote - he votes tribal anyway - it was a roof, a toilet, clean
water, electricity, healthcare, beer and boom boxes.
"What those people want is tight pussy, loose shoes, and a warm place to shit."
Earl Butz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz
That got his cracker ass fired stat.
On 15/08/2025 23:29, rbowman wrote:
Yeah, I'm isolationist. I've read history and a US minding its own
business would be better for the world. It could approach autarky while
maintain neutral relationships with a few trading partners. afaik you
can't grow coffee in the continental US. And, yes, give Hawaii back to
the Hawaiians, Japanese, or whoever wants it.
And Alaska back the the Russians, Texas back to the Spanish, Louisiania
back to the French , New York back to the Dutch and the rest back to the Indians.
As is a hood Kerb is a different word to curb.
Never Mind. It will be miss Dental Treatment herself 'Great news, my IQ
tests cane back negative' Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
No way. Hitler was buying time. And it worked. Stalin killed every one
who warned him against Hitler and Hitler was the great winner of the
pact. When Hitler invaded USSR, Stalin was unprepared and Hitler
benefited from it. The communists in France where able to publish their journal "L'humanité" which praised Hitler in the occupied France. It's
only when Hitler invaded USSR that the French Communists stopped
praising Hitler and switched side to enter the resistance.
The big looser being Poland which had been stab in the back by Germany,
USSR, UK and France. For the peace at the end of the war, Poland has
only been betrayed by UK because France and Germany hadn't a say.
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:49:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Never Mind. It will be miss Dental Treatment herself 'Great news, my IQ
tests cane back negative' Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
The tough Bronx chick who grew up on the mean streets of Yorktown Heights?
I really don't know the English equivalent of that punchline.
It took Churchill another year to convince America of the threat that
the Soviet union posed to Western Europe and Americas interests there,
as well as American democracy itself.
Which people in the USA never did.
On 16/08/2025 07:45, c186282 wrote:
K not only had "limited time" (although a HUGE budget)+1.
she had "limited IQ".
K was the latest Dan Quayle ... picked because she was SO TERRIBLE that
NOBODY would dare 25th Joe.
Just an average lawyer with no business experience whatsoever.
On 2025-08-17, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Democracy is about checks and balances; it is about recognizing the
truth of the maxim that “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts
absolutely”, and dealing with the consequences thereof.
The late John W. Campbell, former editor of Astounding/Analog Science Fact/Fiction, pointed out in one of his editorials that that the maxim
would be more accurate if the word "power" were replaced by "immunity".
This is why the first thing a politician does once he gets into power is
to try to dismantle or bypass those checks and balances.
On 8/16/25 2:48 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 18:04, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:How very Old Labour of you...
On 15/08/2025 22:20, rbowman wrote:
'Public school' completely confuses Americans of course. SomeWell the first schools in the UK were private schools run by
things don't
translate well even in English to English.
monasteries.
Public schools were open to anyone with money. Thay taught what rich
people wanted their kids to learn
State schools were introduced for people without. They taught what the >>>> State wanted you to learn.
The Company owned the houses
And the Company owned the grammar school
You'll never see an educated cotton mill man
-- Jim & Jesse
Well ... he's sort of right there ...
Employees were next-to-slaves well into
20th century USA.
Read up on the battle
between Ford and the unions, coal-mine
owners even more. Big Boss would hire
outright thugs and killers to keep the
workers poor, uneducated and totally
dependent on The Company.
"I was born one morning when the sun didn't shine,
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine ..."
Probably made Ayn Rand cream her panties :-)
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:31:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
No. it wasn't. NATO expanded some at the downfall of the Soviet Union,
but it was never aggressive, only defensive.
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of aggression.
Running your tanks down your neighbours front drive and killing their
kids, is.
Okay. I'll set up a Barrett .50 cal pointed at your front door. It's not
an act of aggression; I'm just getting ready to defend myself if you run amok.
The Russians in Cuba were just defending against a US invasion. No need, actually. The US screwed the invasion up all by themselves.
Do not piss down my back and tell me it's raining. The US may have changed the Department of War to Department of Defense in '47 but I grew up in the country and know what bullshit smells like.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 19:48:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
How very Old Labour of you...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-o3CJytIPE
Once upon a time there was a labor movement in the US. Now the largest
union by far is the NEA, the teachers' union that is saving them from backbreaking labor while setting up drag shows for fifth graders.
On 8/16/25 21:32, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:14:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Nearly total nonsense except for the Earl Butz quote which accurate.
Yup, That was more what I was thinking of. What the African wants was
never the vote - he votes tribal anyway - it was a roof, a toilet, clean >>> water, electricity, healthcare, beer and boom boxes.
"What those people want is tight pussy, loose shoes, and a warm place to
shit."
Earl Butz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz
That got his cracker ass fired stat.
Black people agitated renlentless for the vote in the 1960s and 1970s
and thought they had it with the Voting Rights Act which the Conservative SCOUSA hacked away. Now we have another situation where voting
rights of the poor, non-white, non-straight, non-Christians and even naturalized and citzens born in the USA are threatened.
Voting tribal what the hell does that mean?
White crackers
elect white people who tell them the lies of the racist past that
somehow they are better than any outstanding black people.
They are not and the USA is not the new Jerusalem as
the Puritans believed. It was just a place where diseases both
native and imported killed a lot of the Original Occupants
about the time the Pilgrims and the Puritain Fathers arrived.
bliss
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:14:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup, That was more what I was thinking of. What the African wants was
never the vote - he votes tribal anyway - it was a roof, a toilet, clean
water, electricity, healthcare, beer and boom boxes.
"What those people want is tight pussy, loose shoes, and a warm place to shit."
Earl Butz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz
That got his cracker ass fired stat.
On 8/16/25 9:22 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:04:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Democracy is not there to represent the will of the people. You were
lied to.
It does work better than the alternatives, though.
Let’s face it, *every* political system has to represent, in some form,
“the will of the people”. Even totalitarian dictators cannot govern
without the consent of the governed.
Bullshit - you then rule by TERRORIZING the governed.+1.
Stasi. Vlad The Impaler. Stalin. Pol Pot .......
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:12:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As is a hood Kerb is a different word to curb.
Yes, one must kerb one's desire to curb stomp annoying people. Or do I
have it backwards.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:49:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Never Mind. It will be miss Dental Treatment herself 'Great news, my IQ
tests cane back negative' Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
The tough Bronx chick who grew up on the mean streets of Yorktown Heights?
I really don't know the English equivalent of that punchline.
Cassettes weren't all THAT bad towards the end
of their reign. The noise problem was mostly
gone and signal levels even for high freqs
were improved.
Vinyl ... it's kind of SUPPOSED to be "stuck
in the 70s". IF you got a good pressing by a
good source it could be pretty spectacular.
The best examples were mostly limited pressings
of 'classical' music, not Led Zep for the masses.
At higher speeds, reel-2-reel can also be VERY good.
I kind of hoped for music DVDs ... just music ... at
higher bit resolution. Some promises, but all-electronic
pushed ahead.
Oh well, if you were smokin' Columbian in the back of
a funky van you REALLY didn't care about the tech specs
On 8/17/25 2:01 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:49:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Never Mind. It will be miss Dental Treatment herself 'Great news, my IQ
tests cane back negative' Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
The tough Bronx chick who grew up on the mean streets of Yorktown
Heights?
I really don't know the English equivalent of that punchline.
Hmmm ... may not quite BE one ...
However, UK clones of AOC ... HOPE there
are no equivs :-)
"Tough chik" is fine - but not with a 2-digit
pinhead ...
What the UK needs is QE-1 in her armor, overlooking
the Spanish Armada. THAT'S the kind of 'tough chik'
you want.
The Queen Mum, making sure the kids were trained
in using automatic weapons in case the NAZIs
showed up - THAT'S the kind of 'tough chik'
you want.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:34:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
A new broom... In truth there are a lot of useless timeservers on top of those that are following their own little agenda. Supposedly the Pendleton Act ended the spoils system and replaced it with a nonpolitical civil
service based on merit but that worked as well as most Acts of Congress.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:16:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/08/2025 23:29, rbowman wrote:
Yeah, I'm isolationist. I've read history and a US minding its own
business would be better for the world. It could approach autarky while
maintain neutral relationships with a few trading partners. afaik you
can't grow coffee in the continental US. And, yes, give Hawaii back to
the Hawaiians, Japanese, or whoever wants it.
And Alaska back the the Russians, Texas back to the Spanish, Louisiania
back to the French , New York back to the Dutch and the rest back to the
Indians.
Maybe Louisiana to the Spanish? Historical oddity. When the British
expelled the Acadians from the Maritime Provinces they went looking for a
new home. A few wound up in Maryland which was more or less tolerant of Catholics dependent on who was running England, but most proceeded to Louisiana which had been ceded to Spain. They were in transit and didn't
get the memo. Still, it was a Catholic colony so all was good.
On 8/10/25 7:04 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-10 21:57, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:33:40 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-09 23:58, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:06:08 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most machines I saw, the turbo button "on" actually let the
machine
run at its normal design speed. When "off", it slowed the machine
significantly, so that games and some apps would behave as if running >>>>>> in the original IBM PC. No overclocking involved.
You may be correct. It's been a long time.
Many apps were designed around the 55 msec 'tick' that was generated >>>>> when the 8253 PIT rolled over at 64K. A fun project was twiddling with >>>>> the PIT to generate, say, a 5 msec interrupt grabbing the interrupt
for
your nefarious purposes, but keeping track so the original ISR would >>>>> still run at 55 msec.
That rings a bell, it is familiar. I did not do it, but maybe games
used
it.
There were a lot of fun things you could do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminate-and-stay-resident_program
Certainly, I did that once. In Turbo Pascal :-)
I don't remember what for.
I also wrote a unit that would play the William Tell overture in
background, capturing the timer interrupt.
There was an outfit that sold libs for TP that
would let you do TSR and I think hotkeys. I used
TSRs to probe external devices, to update values,
while still sticking to the main display/control
pgm.
TSR is kinda-sorta 'multi-tasking' - within limits.
You COULD make your own TSRs with TP, but it was
easier to buy the pre-made/debugged.
https://jacobfilipp.com/DrDobbs/articles/DDJ/1989/8905/8905a/8905a.htm
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation of an >>> Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples
per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to prove
that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more complex
signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate anywhere
in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our mechanical-biological sensors have.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation of an
Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples
per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to prove
that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more complex signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate anywhere
in that waveform.
On 17/08/2025 14:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:And since sound waves are the average of a lot of molecules of air
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation of an >>>> Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples
per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to prove >>> that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more complex
signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate anywhere >>> in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our
mechanical-biological sensors have.
hitting your ear drums, and cilia the incoming signal is always digital anyway.
Not much point in sampling to a greater depth than the actual sound wave intrinsically has.
Marketing has turned hifi from 'more then good enough' to 'perfection'.
Which it can never be.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:34:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
A new broom... In truth there are a lot of useless timeservers on top of those that are following their own little agenda. Supposedly the Pendleton Act ended the spoils system and replaced it with a nonpolitical civil
service based on merit but that worked as well as most Acts of Congress.
But its all now digital, because you can get 120dB or more. Simply
betind thehuman abilitry to hear the nois
On 16/08/2025 00:55, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:26:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian not that
can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
I think I'll make a bowl of popcorn, sit back, and watch. I don''t
know if
it will help but I am behind Trump's firing of the Bureau of Labor
Statistics. It's not Trump, it's not recent, and it doesn't always seem
partisan but the pattern for years has been
June Report: Everything is wonderful!
September, spoken in very quiet tones with no headlines: June's report
has
been revised upward/downward. Typically the number of new jobs is revised
downward, inflation is upward. It's very suspicious the revisions are
always in the wrong direction.
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
In 4 years time we should know which ones were in fact vital public
servants and which ones were just pointless fat arsed bureaucrats eating
up public money .
And the next gummint wiill quietly reinstate the vital ones and use the excuse that 'Trump destroyed the economy' to avoid rehiring the rest.,
Libya at least stopped being a threat.
On 2025-08-16 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 00:55, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:26:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian not that >>>>> can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
I think I'll make a bowl of popcorn, sit back, and watch. I don''t
know if
it will help but I am behind Trump's firing of the Bureau of Labor
Statistics. It's not Trump, it's not recent, and it doesn't always seem >>> partisan but the pattern for years has been
June Report: Everything is wonderful!
September, spoken in very quiet tones with no headlines: June's
report has
been revised upward/downward. Typically the number of new jobs is
revised
downward, inflation is upward. It's very suspicious the revisions are
always in the wrong direction.
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
In 4 years time we should know which ones were in fact vital public
servants and which ones were just pointless fat arsed bureaucrats
eating up public money .
And the next gummint wiill quietly reinstate the vital ones and use
the excuse that 'Trump destroyed the economy' to avoid rehiring the
rest.,
<https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/05/weather/nws-rehiring-doge-layoffs- climate>
Weather Service is now hiring back hundreds of positions that got cut
in the DOGE chaos
By Andrew Freedman Aug 5, 2025
As for those of us who are against his rule and that is what he
is trying to do, rule as a dictator or king. And according to his peers
who knew him when young he was just as big an asshole then as
he remains presently. The Republicans made hay out of Biden being
old but refuse to acknowlege the decline of Trump's medical and
mental problems of aging otherwise we would be stuck with Vance.
Personally i always thought that Vance would take him down and
take over but Vance is too pusillanimous.
On 2025-08-17, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
But its all now digital, because you can get 120dB or more. Simply
betind thehuman abilitry to hear the nois
That makes it the perfect medium to store music which has been
compressed down to a 12dB dynamic range. :-p
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
On 2025-08-16 12:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Libya at least stopped being a threat.
Libya is a disaster of our own creation. To themselves and to any one
near enough.
On 17/08/2025 20:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-16 12:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Not any more.
Libya at least stopped being a threat.
Libya is a disaster of our own creation. To themselves and to any one
near enough.
They went very quite after getting missiled
"I was born one morning when the sun didn't shine,
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine ..."
On 17/08/2025 07:01, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:49:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Never Mind. It will be miss Dental Treatment herself 'Great news, my
IQ tests cane back negative' Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
The tough Bronx chick who grew up on the mean streets of Yorktown
Heights?
I really don't know the English equivalent of that punchline.
I get the message.
We have plenty similar.
On 8/17/25 2:01 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:49:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Never Mind. It will be miss Dental Treatment herself 'Great news, my
IQ tests cane back negative' Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
The tough Bronx chick who grew up on the mean streets of Yorktown
Heights?
I really don't know the English equivalent of that punchline.
Hmmm ... may not quite BE one ...
However, UK clones of AOC ... HOPE there are no equivs
But even in the ultimate
repressive dictatorship, “quis custodiet ipsos custodes” still applies: can the guy at the top really trust all of his underlings?
Roll forward another 300 years and the people who are the economy are
not landowners with peasants in the fields - not in Europe anyway -
they are the mill owners - the capitalists, who build industry, and obviously, since there are no robots, workers in those factories who
feel the rural luife to work in factories *because its actually a better life*.
On 17/08/2025 20:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-16 12:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Not any more.
Libya at least stopped being a threat.
Libya is a disaster of our own creation. To themselves and to any one
near enough.
They went very quite after getting missiled
On 8/16/25 9:22 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:04:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Democracy is not there to represent the will of the people. You were
lied to.
It does work better than the alternatives, though.
Let’s face it, *every* political system has to represent, in some form,
“the will of the people”. Even totalitarian dictators cannot govern
without the consent of the governed.
Bullshit - you then rule by TERRORIZING the governed.
Stasi. Vlad The Impaler. Stalin. Pol Pot .......
Cassettes weren't all THAT bad towards the end of their reign. The
noise problem was mostly gone and signal levels even for high freqs
were improved.
And the cassette tape kept on improving, along with the rest of
magnetic- tape technology: new kinds of oxide and even plain-metal depositions, new bonding formulations, new noise-reduction techniques,
right into the 1990s as I recall. It was amazing how much “hi-fi” could be packed into a tape that was less than 4mm wide.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:31:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of aggression.
So why did the US feel so upset about the Soviets basing some missiles
in Cuba, then?
On 17/08/2025 07:59, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:34:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Yeah., After Rudi Dutschkes 'Long March through the Institutions' for
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
A new broom... In truth there are a lot of useless timeservers on top
of those that are following their own little agenda. Supposedly the
Pendleton Act ended the spoils system and replaced it with a
nonpolitical civil service based on merit but that worked as well as
most Acts of Congress.
the Commnuist Left, Trump is having a short exercise is simply defunding
them
Its one of the things that is very damaging short term but will probably
pay off long term, once the babies have bee separated from the bathwater
and reiinstated
On 17/08/2025 05:28, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 19:48:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Well you should have listened to McCarthy
How very Old Labour of you...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-o3CJytIPE
Once upon a time there was a labor movement in the US. Now the largest
union by far is the NEA, the teachers' union that is saving them from
backbreaking labor while setting up drag shows for fifth graders.
On 8/17/25 14:09, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-16 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 00:55, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:26:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian not that >>>>>> can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
I think I'll make a bowl of popcorn, sit back, and watch. I don''t
know if
it will help but I am behind Trump's firing of the Bureau of Labor
Statistics. It's not Trump, it's not recent, and it doesn't always
seem
partisan but the pattern for years has been
June Report: Everything is wonderful!
September, spoken in very quiet tones with no headlines: June's
report has
been revised upward/downward. Typically the number of new jobs is
revised
downward, inflation is upward. It's very suspicious the revisions are
always in the wrong direction.
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
In 4 years time we should know which ones were in fact vital public
servants and which ones were just pointless fat arsed bureaucrats
eating up public money .
And the next gummint wiill quietly reinstate the vital ones and use
the excuse that 'Trump destroyed the economy' to avoid rehiring the
rest.,
<https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/05/weather/nws-rehiring-doge-layoffs-
climate>
Weather Service is now hiring back hundreds of positions that got
cut in the DOGE chaos
By Andrew Freedman Aug 5, 2025
Hmmph. A federal agency that couldn't function with ~10% fewer people.
Any bridges for sale?
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 01:15:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:31:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of aggression.
So why did the US feel so upset about the Soviets basing some missiles
in Cuba, then?
Exactly. Currently the US is also testy about the Chinese in Panama and
they didn't even bring missiles with them afaik.
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 10:03:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 05:28, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 19:48:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
How very Old Labour of you...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-o3CJytIPE
Once upon a time there was a labor movement in the US. Now the largest
union by far is the NEA, the teachers' union that is saving them from
backbreaking labor while setting up drag shows for fifth graders.
Well you should have listened to McCarthy
He was right some of the time. The unions mostly did it to themselves.part in
When the Amalgamated Poultry Pluckers made a good deal with Acme Poultry they didn't care about United Sheep Shearers having to pay more for
chicken dinners.
The IWW proposed One Big Union and the trade unions played a large
destroying it. After all they had their comfortable contracts and the Wobblies were rocking the boat.
Mostly true. However it's the MEDIA that may be the problem.
Oversampling can reduce such errors.
CDs (and DVDs) often have read problems.Which all CDs have
[Cassettes] were *always* dreadful - at least 10dB noisier than
vinyl, usually 20dB.
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection
against the Establishment of Religion.
Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Lucas makes refrigerators too.
But your 'facts' are relative to *your* worldview.
And their governments are *stable*.
On 17/08/2025 05:12, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:31:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
No. it wasn't. NATO expanded some at the downfall of the Soviet Union,
but it was never aggressive, only defensive.
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of aggression.
Running your tanks down your neighbours front drive and killing their
kids, is.
Okay. I'll set up a Barrett .50 cal pointed at your front door. It's not
an act of aggression; I'm just getting ready to defend myself if you run
amok.
Fair enough. Id question your mental state and assume paranoia, but its
fair game
The Russians in Cuba were just defending against a US invasion. No need,
actually. The US screwed the invasion up all by themselves.
Do not piss down my back and tell me it's raining. The US may have
changed
the Department of War to Department of Defense in '47 but I grew up in
the
country and know what bullshit smells like.
Europe is not the USA. Neither is NATO.
But look up Joe Hill who was murdered in real life but lived on in the
hearts and minds of the labor organizers.
On 17/08/2025 06:45, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I am not talking about Americans. I am talking about Africans. In Africa
On 8/16/25 21:32, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:14:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Nearly total nonsense except for the Earl Butz quote which accurate.
Yup, That was more what I was thinking of. What the African wants was
never the vote - he votes tribal anyway - it was a roof, a toilet,
clean
water, electricity, healthcare, beer and boom boxes.
"What those people want is tight pussy, loose shoes, and a warm place to >>> shit."
Earl Butz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz
That got his cracker ass fired stat.
Black people agitated renlentless for the vote in the 1960s and
1970s
and thought they had it with the Voting Rights Act which the Conservative
SCOUSA hacked away. Now we have another situation where voting
rights of the poor, non-white, non-straight, non-Christians and even
naturalized and citzens born in the USA are threatened.
Policticak emancipation comes after all the basics.
You cant eat a vote, nor shelter in it, nor cure diseases with it
Voting tribal what the hell does that mean?
Go to Africa and find out, Google 'Rwanda genocide'
White crackers
elect white people who tell them the lies of the racist past that
somehow they are better than any outstanding black people.
They are not and the USA is not the new Jerusalem as
the Puritans believed. It was just a place where diseases both
native and imported killed a lot of the Original Occupants
about the time the Pilgrims and the Puritain Fathers arrived.
Once again we see the Parochial American Mind which cannot conceive of Africans existing outside America.
On 17/08/2025 05:46, c186282 wrote:
On 8/16/25 9:22 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:+1.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:04:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Democracy is not there to represent the will of the people. You were
lied to.
It does work better than the alternatives, though.
Let’s face it, *every* political system has to represent, in some form, >>> “the will of the people”. Even totalitarian dictators cannot govern
without the consent of the governed.
Bullshit - you then rule by TERRORIZING the governed.
Stasi. Vlad The Impaler. Stalin. Pol Pot .......
I read a very interesting article, in the Financial Times, reviewing a
book whose thesis was that forms of government were what we would call emergent properties of the underlying economic system.
So roll back 1000 years and the basis of European wealth was land. And
the Labour to till it.
Protecting land was the job of the armed knights who owned it (courtesy
of the king). They could be rich enough to have a small army, and
armour. this cadre of Lord and his men-at-arms controlled the peasantry.
But another lord with his men at arms and a bunch of motivated peasants
could invade your land and take it. You had to be nice enough to your peasants so they would fight for you.
The original social contract.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 00:43:13 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Lucas makes refrigerators too.
I believe a nickname for Lucas was “the Prince of darkness” ...
On 17/08/2025 05:49, c186282 wrote:
On 8/16/25 9:31 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:Which all CDs have
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation
of an
Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples
per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to prove >>> that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more complex
signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate
anywhere
in that waveform.
Mostly true. However it's the MEDIA that may
be the problem. Oversampling can reduce such
errors. CDs (and DVDs) often have read problems.
Error-correction techniques plus resampling
are the way to go.
On 17/08/2025 05:59, c186282 wrote:
Cassettes weren't all THAT bad towards the endThet were *always* dreadful - at least 10dB noisier than vinyl, usually 20dB. And without using exactly the same cassette every time Dolby
of their reign. The noise problem was mostly
gone and signal levels even for high freqs
were improved.
simply didnt work
Vinyl ... it's kind of SUPPOSED to be "stuckClimbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle and pop
in the 70s". IF you got a good pressing by a
good source it could be pretty spectacular.
The best examples were mostly limited pressings
of 'classical' music, not Led Zep for the masses.
And rumble flutter and wow.
At higher speeds, reel-2-reel can also be VERY good.Yes. Built to precision standards that's HOW vinyl got to 70dB - 50 ips
BIG inche wide tapes.
But its all now digital, because you can get 120dB or more. Simply
betind thehuman abilitry to hear the noise
I kind of hoped for music DVDs ... just music ... atCDs are perfectly good enough. AQaye better tbhan anything 'analogue'
higher bit resolution. Some promises, but all-electronic
pushed ahead.
Oh well, if you were smokin' Columbian in the back of
a funky van you REALLY didn't care about the tech specs
I am not so sure., dope boosted hearing can be very good.
But pissed up - even a low bitrate MP3 is better than vinyl
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 00:41:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 00:43:13 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Lucas makes refrigerators too.
I believe a nickname for Lucas was “the Prince of darkness” ...
It was. When a little red light on the dashboard of my Sprite came on I
was sure what it meant at first. It was a signal that the Prince had left
the building. Thankfully Lucas didn't make the battery so I managed to get home.
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 15:44:42 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
But look up Joe Hill who was murdered in real life but lived on in the
hearts and minds of the labor organizers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpX8Pg_FTH4
That is not 'I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night...'
I'll see your Joe Hill and raise a Frank Little.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Little_(unionist)
Before he was killed in Butte, he, Gurley FLynn and others took part in
the free speech fight in Missoula in 1909. There was a reenactment in 2009 and later Higgins and Front was added as a historic site. I can't remember but I think there was a marker on the corner before it became an official historic site.
Five degrees of Kevin Bacon Flynn was friends with another IWW organizer, James Connolly. He was from Ireland but lived in Troy, NY for a while,
which is the city closest ot where I grew up. There is a monument to him there.
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/celebrating-the-life-of-james- connolly-in-troy-new-york/
He should have stayed in Troy. He was wounded in the 1916 Easter Rising. Dying and unable to stand, the Brits carried him out of Kilmainham Gaol on
a stretcher, tied him to a chair, and shot him. Brilliant PR move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH6_4VcAzW0
fwiw I even have the t-shirt with the Sabo-Tabby.
https://archive.iww.org/history/icons/black_cat/
and the words "The working class and the employing class have nothing in common". Know where that comes from? Want some more IWW history? How
about Big Bill Haywood?
As I said I have a certain fondness for the socialists of the early 20th century. I have nothing but contempt for the woke 'socialists' of the
early 21st century.
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 10:58:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Can do.
On 17/08/2025 07:01, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:49:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Never Mind. It will be miss Dental Treatment herself 'Great news, my
IQ tests cane back negative' Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
The tough Bronx chick who grew up on the mean streets of Yorktown
Heights?
I really don't know the English equivalent of that punchline.
I get the message.
We have plenty similar.
Do British pols develop Yorkie accents while in Yorkshire?
As I said I have a certain fondness for the socialists of the early 20th century. I have nothing but contempt for the woke 'socialists' of the
early 21st century.
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 10:44:16 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Roll forward another 300 years and the people who are the economy are
not landowners with peasants in the fields - not in Europe anyway -
they are the mill owners - the capitalists, who build industry, and
obviously, since there are no robots, workers in those factories who
feel the rural luife to work in factories *because its actually a better
life*.
You give the peasants a little extra motivation by passing the Inclosure Acts.
Rwanda is STILL going on ... except now it's
backing lethal Congo rebels.
On the whole, "Africa" is still a HUGE mess -
kinda like medieval Europe - petty kings and
warlords and rebels ........
Admittedly modern 'socialists' have little to do
with the Old Socialists. Today's are mindless fanatics
by and large.
But, BOTH, were still Marxo-Lefty SOCIALISTS. There
is the underlying fault, the century-long connection.
Error multiplied by error multiplied by error ....
Despite the romantic BS, the "knights" were rarely
the friend of The People. They were the heavily-
armed guys who'd ride in and chop-up half the pop
of your village if you didn't bow low enough to
the Lord and pay his taxes.
In short, the kings THUGS.
Hey - money is MONEY and the Lords demanded as
much as possible and beyond.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
On 18/08/2025 06:50, c186282 wrote:
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Oh dear. Not for me it wasn't. And isn't
On 2025-08-16 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 00:55, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:26:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian
not that can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
I think I'll make a bowl of popcorn, sit back, and watch. I
don''t know if it will help but I am behind Trump's firing of the
Bureau of Labor Statistics. It's not Trump, it's not recent, and
it doesn't always seem partisan but the pattern for years has
been
June Report: Everything is wonderful!
September, spoken in very quiet tones with no headlines: June's
report has been revised upward/downward. Typically the number of
new jobs is revised downward, inflation is upward. It's very
suspicious the revisions are always in the wrong direction.
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
In 4 years time we should know which ones were in fact vital public
servants and which ones were just pointless fat arsed bureaucrats
eating up public money . And the next gummint wiill quietly
reinstate the vital ones and use the excuse that 'Trump destroyed
the economy' to avoid rehiring the rest.,
<https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/05/weather/nws-rehiring-doge-layoffs-climate>
Weather Service is now hiring back hundreds of positions that got cut
in the DOGE chaos
By Andrew Freedman Aug 5, 2025
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation of an >>> Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples
per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to prove
that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more complex
signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate anywhere
in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our mechanical-biological sensors have.
On 17/08/2025 14:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:And since sound waves are the average of a lot of molecules of air
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital
representation of an Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an
infinite number of samples per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC
to prove that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or
more complex signals) as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the
original sample rate anywhere in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our
mechanical-biological sensors have.
hitting your ear drums, and cilia the incoming signal is always
digital anyway.
Not much point in sampling to a greater depth than the actual sound
wave intrinsically has.
Marketing has turned hifi from 'more then good enough' to
'perfection'. Which it can never be.
On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle and pop
And rumble flutter and wow.
The brain filtered that out pretty well.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
On 8/18/25 5:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/08/2025 06:50, c186282 wrote:
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Oh dear. Not for me it wasn't. And isn't
???
Turn off the spectrum analyzer and just *listen* :-)
On 8/17/25 5:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 05:46, c186282 wrote:
On 8/16/25 9:22 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:+1.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:04:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Democracy is not there to represent the will of the people. You were >>>>> lied to.
It does work better than the alternatives, though.
Let’s face it, *every* political system has to represent, in some form, >>>> “the will of the people”. Even totalitarian dictators cannot govern >>>> without the consent of the governed.
Bullshit - you then rule by TERRORIZING the governed.
Stasi. Vlad The Impaler. Stalin. Pol Pot .......
I read a very interesting article, in the Financial Times, reviewing a
book whose thesis was that forms of government were what we would call
emergent properties of the underlying economic system.
So roll back 1000 years and the basis of European wealth was land. And
the Labour to till it.
Protecting land was the job of the armed knights who owned it
(courtesy of the king). They could be rich enough to have a small
army, and armour. this cadre of Lord and his men-at-arms controlled
the peasantry.
Despite the romantic BS, the "knights" were rarely
the friend of The People. They were the heavily-
armed guys who'd ride in and chop-up half the pop
of your village if you didn't bow low enough to
the Lord and pay his taxes.
In short, the kings THUGS.
Hey - money is MONEY and the Lords demanded as
much as possible and beyond.
But another lord with his men at arms and a bunch of motivated
peasants could invade your land and take it. You had to be nice
enough to your peasants so they would fight for you.
The original social contract.
Nah, rarely THAT nice.
You DID what the King/Lord TOLD you to do - OR ELSE.
Were they abusing you, starving you - didn't MATTER ...
you obeyed OR ELSE.
"Cooperative" is super-nice - but through most of
history/location it was rule BY TERROR.
Obey - OR ELSE.
On 8/18/25 1:05 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 15:44:42 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
But look up Joe Hill who was murdered in real life but lived on in the
hearts and minds of the labor organizers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpX8Pg_FTH4
That is not 'I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night...'
Ok, SUPER weird !
Adjust your meds !!!
I'll see your Joe Hill and raise a Frank Little.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Little_(unionist)
Before he was killed in Butte, he, Gurley FLynn and others took part in
the free speech fight in Missoula in 1909. There was a reenactment in
2009
and later Higgins and Front was added as a historic site. I can't
remember
but I think there was a marker on the corner before it became an official
historic site.
Five degrees of Kevin Bacon Flynn was friends with another IWW organizer,
James Connolly. He was from Ireland but lived in Troy, NY for a while,
which is the city closest ot where I grew up. There is a monument to him
there.
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/celebrating-the-life-of-james-
connolly-in-troy-new-york/
He should have stayed in Troy. He was wounded in the 1916 Easter Rising.
Dying and unable to stand, the Brits carried him out of Kilmainham
Gaol on
a stretcher, tied him to a chair, and shot him. Brilliant PR move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH6_4VcAzW0
fwiw I even have the t-shirt with the Sabo-Tabby.
https://archive.iww.org/history/icons/black_cat/
and the words "The working class and the employing class have nothing in
common". Know where that comes from? Want some more IWW history? How
about Big Bill Haywood?
As I said I have a certain fondness for the socialists of the early 20th
century. I have nothing but contempt for the woke 'socialists' of the
early 21st century.
Admittedly modern 'socialists' have little to do
with the Old Socialists. Today's are mindless fanatics
by and large.
But, BOTH, were still Marxo-Lefty SOCIALISTS. There
is the underlying fault, the century-long connection.
Error multiplied by error multiplied by error ....
Hmmm ... kinda like analog computers ... can only
take chain calx just SO far :-)
On 17/08/2025 11:23 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:"infinite number of samples" .... that's what you get when you listen to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation
of an
Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples
per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to prove >>> that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more complex
signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate
anywhere
in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our
mechanical-biological sensors have.
the REAL Sound!!
On 17/08/2025 11:32 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 14:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:And since sound waves are the average of a lot of molecules of air
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital
representation of an Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an
infinite number of samples per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC
to prove that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or
more complex signals) as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the
original sample rate anywhere in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our
mechanical-biological sensors have.
hitting your ear drums, and cilia the incoming signal is always
digital anyway.
Not much point in sampling to a greater depth than the actual sound
wave intrinsically has.
Marketing has turned hifi from 'more then good enough' to
'perfection'. Which it can never be.
Correct. If you are listening to just one frequency, then I suppose 'sampling' could do a reasonable job, but as voice and music are,
usually, made up of many frequencies and 'sampled' SIMPLIFICATION can
not be as good as the original!!
Sure he is an asshole.
But he is also POTUS. And he is stupid enough to be bold.
That means that stuff is happening. Most of it will be crap. And will be reversed. Some of it unexpectedly will be beneficial,.
Trump is less evil than venal and completely clueless.
On 2025-08-17, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Sure he is an asshole.
But he is also POTUS. And he is stupid enough to be bold.
That means that stuff is happening. Most of it will be crap. And will be
reversed. Some of it unexpectedly will be beneficial,.
Trump is less evil than venal and completely clueless.
However, he's also vengeful.
Most only ask for the regulation of various portions
of Capitalism which has servered only a portion of the
society. Polluting industries are generally established
in poorer communities and a frend on mine years ago
advocated for requiring managers and owners to live
in the same area as their plants.
Old fridges in the USA - "Norge" ... the old ones
had the radiator coil ON TOP in plain sight.
Not TOO long ago went into a Country Store and
they HAD one - it STILL worked ! Owner claimed
he'd NEVER had it serviced.
Wow.
That's how good things CAN be.
On 18/08/2025 5:09 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-16 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:(Not having read the artical ...) Does this mean those 'hundreds' got a
On 16/08/2025 00:55, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:26:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian
not that can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
I think I'll make a bowl of popcorn, sit back, and watch. I
don''t know if it will help but I am behind Trump's firing of the
Bureau of Labor Statistics. It's not Trump, it's not recent, and
it doesn't always seem partisan but the pattern for years has
been
June Report: Everything is wonderful!
September, spoken in very quiet tones with no headlines: June's
report has been revised upward/downward. Typically the number of
new jobs is revised downward, inflation is upward. It's very
suspicious the revisions are always in the wrong direction.
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
In 4 years time we should know which ones were in fact vital public
servants and which ones were just pointless fat arsed bureaucrats
eating up public money . And the next gummint wiill quietly
reinstate the vital ones and use the excuse that 'Trump destroyed
the economy' to avoid rehiring the rest.,
<https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/05/weather/nws-rehiring-doge-layoffs-
climate>
Weather Service is now hiring back hundreds of positions that got cut
in the DOGE chaos
By Andrew Freedman Aug 5, 2025
final separation package .... and are now being re-employed back into
their old positions with old pays??
What a Bargain for the U.S. of A. people!!
«“How much time/money is it going to cost to train a bunch of new people when we had already-trained people in place?” asked another NOAA
official, who requested anonymity because they were not authorized to
talk to the media. It is possible that some of the new hires will have
been previously trained employees who were let go in the DOGE cuts.»
On 18/08/2025 05:53, c186282 wrote:
Rwanda is STILL going on ... except now it's backing lethal CongoRussia and China will be in there somewhere. They always are.
rebels.
On the whole, "Africa" is still a HUGE mess -
kinda like medieval Europe - petty kings and warlords and rebels
........
No, it actually isn't.
Africa is massively corrupt - that goes without saying - but it has
resources and it recognises it needs intelligence and skills and the
level of education and sophistication is rising
Check this out., This is a South African. I can't imagine any African American saying this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsdsK-Am0WY
On 8/18/25 1:13 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 00:41:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 00:43:13 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Lucas makes refrigerators too.
I believe a nickname for Lucas was “the Prince of darkness” ...
It was. When a little red light on the dashboard of my Sprite came on I
was sure what it meant at first. It was a signal that the Prince had
left the building. Thankfully Lucas didn't make the battery so I
managed to get home.
Warm beer is OK. More taste actually.
But was never that fond of beer.
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 10:56:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/08/2025 05:53, c186282 wrote:
Rwanda is STILL going on ... except now it's backing lethal CongoRussia and China will be in there somewhere. They always are.
rebels.
On the whole, "Africa" is still a HUGE mess -
kinda like medieval Europe - petty kings and warlords and rebels
........
No, it actually isn't.
Africa is massively corrupt - that goes without saying - but it has
resources and it recognises it needs intelligence and skills and the
level of education and sophistication is rising
Check this out., This is a South African. I can't imagine any African
American saying this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsdsK-Am0WY
The slavers may not have been able to round up the smart ones.
On 2025-08-17, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Sure he is an asshole.
But he is also POTUS. And he is stupid enough to be bold.
That means that stuff is happening. Most of it will be crap. And will
be reversed. Some of it unexpectedly will be beneficial,.
Trump is less evil than venal and completely clueless.
However, he's also vengeful.
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They
believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's
not.
"infinite number of samples" .... that's what you get when you
listen to the REAL Sound!!
If you are listening to just one frequency, then I suppose
'sampling' could do a reasonable job, but as voice and music are,
usually, made up of many frequencies and 'sampled' SIMPLIFICATION
can not be as good as the original!!
On 17/08/2025 22:39, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 02:35:48 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 2:01 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:49:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Never Mind. It will be miss Dental Treatment herself 'Great news, my >>>>> IQ tests cane back negative' Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
The tough Bronx chick who grew up on the mean streets of Yorktown
Heights?
I really don't know the English equivalent of that punchline.
Hmmm ... may not quite BE one ...
However, UK clones of AOC ... HOPE there are no equivs
I meant I don't know enough about England to pick two communities, one
where you don't want to be (the Bronx) and one that is pleasant
suburbia (Yorktown) that are about 45 miles from each other.
You can do better than that. The tough East End chick who grew up in Hampstead.
On 17/08/2025 11:23 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:"infinite number of samples" .... that's what you get when you listen to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation of
an Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of
samples per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to
prove that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more
complex signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate
anywhere in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our
mechanical-biological sensors have.
the REAL Sound!!
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 22:28:01 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 17/08/2025 11:23 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:"infinite number of samples" .... that's what you get when you listen to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation of >>>>> an Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of
samples per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to
prove that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more
complex signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate
anywhere in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our
mechanical-biological sensors have.
the REAL Sound!!
I feel Zeno is going to step in soon, or maybe Nagarjuna.
On 2025-08-18, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Most only ask for the regulation of various portions
of Capitalism which has servered only a portion of the society.
Polluting industries are generally established in poorer communities
and a frend on mine years ago advocated for requiring managers and
owners to live in the same area as their plants.
Someone once suggested an interesting twist on this:
for plants on a river or stream, require their water intakes to be
downstream of the exhaust.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about
science is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
One of the early experiments with Socialist in the USA
was imported from the UK and it failed miserable because the
participants were not drawn from the working class but from the classes susceptible to taking not to giving or working.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:30:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They
believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's
not.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about science
is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
Same with our natural sampling rate which makes music
recorded or live sound continuous. I once worked on the accounts for an expert audio engineer and I learned a few things including that wealth
does not guarantee a keen ear. And that a listener may believe many
things about cables and other connectors which are not supported by any evidence.
Slaves were taken by many means sometimes betrayed by relatives
who wanted to get people with a claim to power out of the way. Sometimes captured in Tribal wars or taken in the conquest of villages. Then and
now there are still the Arabian slavers who sold across the sea and
North to the Arabian overlords.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 01:03:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:30:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They
believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's
not.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about science
is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
Engineering works. In a technical university with fledgling engineers and scientists that was a hot debate topic.
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 18:00:30 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Slaves were taken by many means sometimes betrayed by relatives
who wanted to get people with a claim to power out of the way. Sometimes
captured in Tribal wars or taken in the conquest of villages. Then and
now there are still the Arabian slavers who sold across the sea and
North to the Arabian overlords.
Then there was the slave market in Dublin. I have no doubt some of the product consisted of inconvenient people the Irish wanted to get rid of.
One thing I find interesting is the Cherokee used slaves that they had captured from neighboring tribes. After the Europeans arrived they sound
it preferable to purchase African slaves and later took them with them on
the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma. They're still squabbling about the status
of the descendants.
The related question is why, with a continent full of potential slaves,
did the colonists choose to import Africans.
On 18/08/2025 3:50 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<Snip>
Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle and pop
And rumble flutter and wow.
The brain filtered that out pretty well.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Correct. And speaking about "perceived" .... I can remember listening to
an album (one of those big black discs) put out by 'Kraftwerk' called 'Autobahn'. I was lying on the Lounge-room floor with headphones on and,
when the 'Autobahn' tune starts, the 'music' (sound of a vehicle) is way
off in the distance in one ear. Slowly the 'music' (vehicle noise) gets louder and louder and LOUDER then crosses to the other ear ..... then
gets softer and softer as the vehicle 'disappears' away back into the distance.
Just about sent me 'Cross-eyed' ever time I listened to it!! NICE!!
Bliss, even.
(Thanks for the memories!! ;-) )
On 17/08/2025 11:32 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 14:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:And since sound waves are the average of a lot of molecules of air
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital
representation of an Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an
infinite number of samples per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC
to prove that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or
more complex signals) as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the
original sample rate anywhere in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our
mechanical-biological sensors have.
hitting your ear drums, and cilia the incoming signal is always
digital anyway.
Not much point in sampling to a greater depth than the actual sound
wave intrinsically has.
Marketing has turned hifi from 'more then good enough' to
'perfection'. Which it can never be.
Correct. If you are listening to just one frequency, then I suppose 'sampling' could do a reasonable job, but as voice and music are,
usually, made up of many frequencies and 'sampled' SIMPLIFICATION can
not be as good as the original!!
On 18/08/2025 5:09 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-16 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:(Not having read the artical ...) Does this mean those 'hundreds' got a
On 16/08/2025 00:55, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:26:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian
not that can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
I think I'll make a bowl of popcorn, sit back, and watch. I
don''t know if it will help but I am behind Trump's firing of the
Bureau of Labor Statistics. It's not Trump, it's not recent, and
it doesn't always seem partisan but the pattern for years has
been
June Report: Everything is wonderful!
September, spoken in very quiet tones with no headlines: June's
report has been revised upward/downward. Typically the number of
new jobs is revised downward, inflation is upward. It's very
suspicious the revisions are always in the wrong direction.
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
In 4 years time we should know which ones were in fact vital public
servants and which ones were just pointless fat arsed bureaucrats
eating up public money . And the next gummint wiill quietly
reinstate the vital ones and use the excuse that 'Trump destroyed
the economy' to avoid rehiring the rest.,
<https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/05/weather/nws-rehiring-doge-layoffs-climate>
Weather Service is now hiring back hundreds of positions that got cut
in the DOGE chaos
By Andrew Freedman Aug 5, 2025
final separation package .... and are now being re-employed back into
their old positions with old pays??
What a Bargain for the U.S. of A. people!!
On 18/08/2025 13:28, Daniel70 wrote:
On 17/08/2025 11:23 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:"infinite number of samples" .... that's what you get when you listen
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital representation
of an
Analogue waveform which, in theory, has an infinite number of samples >>>>> per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a DAC to
prove
that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine waves or more complex
signals)
as cleanly as you like, with no hint of the original sample rate
anywhere
in that waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our
mechanical-biological sensors have.
to the REAL Sound!!
No. it isn't.
Perhaps a trip back to physics classes and 'Brownian motion' will
enlighten you
On 8/17/25 22:09, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 5:44 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 05:46, c186282 wrote:
On 8/16/25 9:22 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:+1.
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:04:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Democracy is not there to represent the will of the people. You were >>>>>> lied to.
It does work better than the alternatives, though.
Let’s face it, *every* political system has to represent, in some
form,
“the will of the people”. Even totalitarian dictators cannot govern >>>>> without the consent of the governed.
Bullshit - you then rule by TERRORIZING the governed.
Stasi. Vlad The Impaler. Stalin. Pol Pot .......
I read a very interesting article, in the Financial Times, reviewing
a book whose thesis was that forms of government were what we would
call emergent properties of the underlying economic system.
So roll back 1000 years and the basis of European wealth was land.
And the Labour to till it.
Protecting land was the job of the armed knights who owned it
(courtesy of the king). They could be rich enough to have a small
army, and armour. this cadre of Lord and his men-at-arms controlled
the peasantry.
Despite the romantic BS, the "knights" were rarely
the friend of The People. They were the heavily-
armed guys who'd ride in and chop-up half the pop
of your village if you didn't bow low enough to
the Lord and pay his taxes.
Surlu was originally Sirly and applied to the behavior
of knights. Many of whom acted like criminal muscle.
On 2025-08-18, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Hey, STILL hear the term "Alien Invasion" kinda often.
Apparently the space people are assumed to think exactly
like WE do. This COULD have bad effects if They ever
do land in Central Park.
Mars Attacks!
Where's Slim Whitman when you need him?
On 2025-08-18, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Old fridges in the USA - "Norge" ... the old ones
had the radiator coil ON TOP in plain sight.
Not TOO long ago went into a Country Store and
they HAD one - it STILL worked ! Owner claimed
he'd NEVER had it serviced.
Wow.
That's how good things CAN be.
Can you remember where that store is? We have to
dispatch an adjustment team out there immediately.
Kindly forget that you read this message.
On 8/18/25 20:22, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 01:03:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:30:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They
believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's
not.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about science >>> is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
Engineering works. In a technical university with fledgling engineers and
scientists that was a hot debate topic.
And bumblebees keep on flying despite analysis to the contrary.
a listener
may believe many things about cables and other connectors which
are not supported by any evidence.
The related question is why, with a continent full of potential slaves,
did the colonists choose to import Africans.
On 8/18/25 20:22, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 01:03:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:30:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They
believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's
not.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about science >>> is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
Engineering works. In a technical university with fledgling engineers and
scientists that was a hot debate topic.
And bumblebees keep on flying despite analysis to the contrary.
bliss
On 8/18/25 8:16 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 3:50 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<Snip>
Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle and pop >>>>
And rumble flutter and wow.
The brain filtered that out pretty well.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Correct. And speaking about "perceived" .... I can remember listening
to an album (one of those big black discs) put out by 'Kraftwerk'
called 'Autobahn'. I was lying on the Lounge-room floor with
headphones on and, when the 'Autobahn' tune starts, the 'music' (sound
of a vehicle) is way off in the distance in one ear. Slowly the
'music' (vehicle noise) gets louder and louder and LOUDER then crosses
to the other ear ..... then gets softer and softer as the vehicle
'disappears' away back into the distance.
Just about sent me 'Cross-eyed' ever time I listened to it!! NICE!!
Bliss, even.
(Thanks for the memories!! ;-) )
Spectral readings and tech specs do NOT define
what "sounds great".
We're "goo-ware" - not hardware.
And then
each brand/model of AMP and PREAMP adds its own
subtle color.
I remember the older quality transistor AB amps.
"Technically" they were probably very good, but
the sound just seemed too "hard".
True. Human senses - audio, visual or whatever - do
not have "infinite resolution".
What IS there is constantly influenced, biased, by a
bunch of other subtle things. There is no such thing
as an 'authentic experience' - it's all dependent,
processes and sub-processed, colored and biased,
compressed and tweaked as best to fit our little brains.
The Buddha was kind of right when he said All Is
Illusion. (note Plato's Allegory Of The Cave ...
similar ultimate conclusion, but, after what
happened to Socrates, he didn't dare finish the
thought).
At very best, well, we're "Goo-Ware" ... evolved to
best fit THIS kind of world.
On 8/18/25 8:16 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 3:50 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<Snip>
Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle and pop >>>>
And rumble flutter and wow.
The brain filtered that out pretty well.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Correct. And speaking about "perceived" .... I can remember listening
to an album (one of those big black discs) put out by 'Kraftwerk'
called 'Autobahn'. I was lying on the Lounge-room floor with
headphones on and, when the 'Autobahn' tune starts, the 'music' (sound
of a vehicle) is way off in the distance in one ear. Slowly the
'music' (vehicle noise) gets louder and louder and LOUDER then crosses
to the other ear ..... then gets softer and softer as the vehicle
'disappears' away back into the distance.
Just about sent me 'Cross-eyed' ever time I listened to it!! NICE!!
Bliss, even.
(Thanks for the memories!! ;-) )
Spectral readings and tech specs do NOT define
what "sounds great".
We're "goo-ware" - not hardware.
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 18:00:30 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Slaves were taken by many means sometimes betrayed by relatives
who wanted to get people with a claim to power out of the way. Sometimes
captured in Tribal wars or taken in the conquest of villages. Then and
now there are still the Arabian slavers who sold across the sea and
North to the Arabian overlords.
Then there was the slave market in Dublin. I have no doubt some of the product consisted of inconvenient people the Irish wanted to get rid of.
One thing I find interesting is the Cherokee used slaves that they had captured from neighboring tribes. After the Europeans arrived they sound
it preferable to purchase African slaves and later took them with them on
the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma. They're still squabbling about the status
of the descendants.
The related question is why, with a continent full of potential slaves,
did the colonists choose to import Africans.
On 2025-08-19 07:33, c186282 wrote:
On 8/18/25 8:16 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 3:50 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<Snip>
Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle and
pop
And rumble flutter and wow.
The brain filtered that out pretty well.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Correct. And speaking about "perceived" .... I can remember listening
to an album (one of those big black discs) put out by 'Kraftwerk'
called 'Autobahn'. I was lying on the Lounge-room floor with
headphones on and, when the 'Autobahn' tune starts, the 'music'
(sound of a vehicle) is way off in the distance in one ear. Slowly
the 'music' (vehicle noise) gets louder and louder and LOUDER then
crosses to the other ear ..... then gets softer and softer as the
vehicle 'disappears' away back into the distance.
Just about sent me 'Cross-eyed' ever time I listened to it!! NICE!!
Bliss, even.
(Thanks for the memories!! ;-) )
Spectral readings and tech specs do NOT define
what "sounds great".
We're "goo-ware" - not hardware.
Surely we can define what should sound great on our measurement
instruments. And once the rules are defined, that's repeatable and
objective.
Surely we can define what should sound great on our measurement
instruments. And once the rules are defined, that's repeatable and
objective.
'Cept your 'rules", Carlos, would probably be different to my "rules"! 😜
Look at "QuickSilver" ... basic, very good, and
semi-affordable. I've got a 40w set out in my
storage shed, but you need high-efficiency
speakers for that and, at my age, it's just
not worth it.
On 8/18/25 12:51 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/08/2025 13:28, Daniel70 wrote:
On 17/08/2025 11:23 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-17 03:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:"infinite number of samples" .... that's what you get when you
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 20:20:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"CD-quality audio", sure, but it is still a digital
representation of an Analogue waveform which, in theory,
has an infinite number of samples per second.
Don’t believe that nonsense.
It is easy enough to put an oscilloscope on the output of a
DAC to prove that it can reproduce pure waves (like sine
waves or more complex signals) as cleanly as you like, with
no hint of the original sample rate anywhere in that
waveform.
To have that "infinite number of samples" you need an infinite
bandwidth, which analog electronics doesn't have, nor our
mechanical-biological sensors have.
listen to the REAL Sound!!
No. it isn't.
Perhaps a trip back to physics classes and 'Brownian motion' will
enlighten you
True. Human senses - audio, visual or whatever - do not have
"infinite resolution".
What IS there is constantly influenced, biased, by a bunch of other
subtle things. There is no such thing as an 'authentic experience' -
it's all dependent, processes and sub-processed, colored and biased, compressed and tweaked as best to fit our little brains.
On 2025-08-19 07:33, c186282 wrote:
On 8/18/25 8:16 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 3:50 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<Snip>
Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle and
pop
And rumble flutter and wow.
The brain filtered that out pretty well.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Correct. And speaking about "perceived" .... I can remember listening
to an album (one of those big black discs) put out by 'Kraftwerk'
called 'Autobahn'. I was lying on the Lounge-room floor with
headphones on and, when the 'Autobahn' tune starts, the 'music'
(sound of a vehicle) is way off in the distance in one ear. Slowly
the 'music' (vehicle noise) gets louder and louder and LOUDER then
crosses to the other ear ..... then gets softer and softer as the
vehicle 'disappears' away back into the distance.
Just about sent me 'Cross-eyed' ever time I listened to it!! NICE!!
Bliss, even.
(Thanks for the memories!! ;-) )
Spectral readings and tech specs do NOT define
what "sounds great".
We're "goo-ware" - not hardware.
Surely we can define what should sound great on our measurement
instruments. And once the rules are defined, that's repeatable and
objective.
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 22:28:01 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"infinite number of samples" .... that's what you get when you
listen to the REAL Sound!!
But you don’t have an infinite number of audio-sensitive cells in your ears, or an infinite bandwidth of neural connection to your brain, or
an infinite number of processing cells in your auditory cortex ...
what you hear in your head is nowhere near the full reality of sound.
That’s why “lossy” audio compression algorithms work: they throw away the stuff your brain is incapable of noticing anyway.--
On 2025-08-18 14:54, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 5:09 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-16 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
(Not having read the artical ...) Does this mean those 'hundreds' got aTrump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
In 4 years time we should know which ones were in fact vital public
servants and which ones were just pointless fat arsed bureaucrats
eating up public money . And the next gummint wiill quietly
reinstate the vital ones and use the excuse that 'Trump destroyed
the economy' to avoid rehiring the rest.,
<https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/05/weather/nws-rehiring-doge-layoffs- climate>
Weather Service is now hiring back hundreds of positions that got cut
in the DOGE chaos
By Andrew Freedman Aug 5, 2025
final separation package .... and are now being re-employed back into
their old positions with old pays??
What a Bargain for the U.S. of A. people!!
The article says they have to be trained for the job, so they are new
people, which is more expensive than rehiring the old people, I guess.
Maybe the new people are cheaper, but they will not be effective till trained.
«“How much time/money is it going to cost to train a bunch of new people when we had already-trained people in place?” asked another NOAA
official, who requested anonymity because they were not authorized to
talk to the media. It is possible that some of the new hires will have
been previously trained employees who were let go in the DOGE cuts.»
On 19/08/2025 11:10 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 22:28:01 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"infinite number of samples" .... that's what you get when you
listen to the REAL Sound!!
But you don’t have an infinite number of audio-sensitive cells in your
ears, or an infinite bandwidth of neural connection to your brain, or
an infinite number of processing cells in your auditory cortex ...
what you hear in your head is nowhere near the full reality of sound.
But what I hear IS what I hear .... and it's either RIGHT or it's not!!
That’s why “lossy” audio compression algorithms work: they throw away >> the stuff your brain is incapable of noticing anyway.
On 19/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-19 07:33, c186282 wrote:I spent 15 years designing audio.
On 8/18/25 8:16 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 3:50 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<Snip>
Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle
and pop
And rumble flutter and wow.
The brain filtered that out pretty well.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Correct. And speaking about "perceived" .... I can remember
listening to an album (one of those big black discs) put out by
'Kraftwerk' called 'Autobahn'. I was lying on the Lounge-room floor
with headphones on and, when the 'Autobahn' tune starts, the
'music' (sound of a vehicle) is way off in the distance in one ear.
Slowly the 'music' (vehicle noise) gets louder and louder and LOUDER
then crosses to the other ear ..... then gets softer and softer as
the vehicle 'disappears' away back into the distance.
Just about sent me 'Cross-eyed' ever time I listened to it!! NICE!!
Bliss, even.
(Thanks for the memories!! ;-) )
Spectral readings and tech specs do NOT define
what "sounds great".
We're "goo-ware" - not hardware.
Surely we can define what should sound great on our measurement
instruments. And once the rules are defined, that's repeatable and
objective.
In the end I could identify issues just by listening
- If the sound is gritty or edgy, you have crossover distortion or a
failing loudspeaker.
- if the sound is muddy and you hear the music, but not the individual instruments, you have intermodulation distortion. This is what happens
in your ears as you get older making it hard to pick out one
conversation in a noisy place. In general there isn't much of that in
modern electronics: It's likely to be a shitty loudspeaker.
- if the cymbals and triangles and hi hats smash, but don't ring, your
cloth eared sound engineer has overloaded the recording medium. Very
easy to do with old tape machines, and VU meters, not so with digital
- If your FM stereo sounds slightly weird right at the extreme treble,
you don't have enough bandwidth in the IF strip. Most FM is in fact like this. I built a really good wideband FM receiver, but it suffered from
co channel interference in continental Europe..
-if your bass is boxy, the loudspeaker is trying to sound like it has
bass when it doesn't.
- if the sound sounds like cardboard, that's because it is. You are
hearing the loudspeaker cone, not the music.
In short real hifi is that you can hear every instrument clearly and separately, and especially every single voice in a choral work. Top end loudspeakers designed for classical are designed like that. Very flat frequency response, very low resonances in the cabinet and loudspeakers
and very low intermodulation distortions, You hear te instruments, not
the music and absolutely not the loudspeaker
Loudspeakers for country jazz rock and pop concentrate more on
delivering a good bass, and since there aren't many instruments, tend to generate a 'sound' which will depend on the compromises they made. Cheap loudspeakers you hear the loudspeakers, not the music, and absolutely
not the instruments.
It two loudspeakers 'sound different', at least one of them is shit. At
the top end yiou cant tell them apart really.
As far as amplifiers go, I stopped designing them when it became clear
that there were in all cases indistinguishable and way more than good
enough. Around the mid 1980s transistor technology was so advanced that
you could really design essentially 'perfect' amplifiers.
Vinyl disc amps were what they were, and we pushed the limits of low
noise transistors till they were in the end quieter than the hiss on the records. FM radio in the end we were limited by the conflicting
requirements of adjacent channel reception and high bandwidth with
smooth phase response to get HF stereo to an acceptable quality.
AM radio was as good as it could be made, which was never, in Europe, Hi
fi.
Digital sound pushed the available quality up massively. In particular digital mastering made a huge difference to recorded quality- even the
best 1" tape at 30IPS is nowhere near a 12 bit, let alone 16 bit
recording at 44 or 48Khz sampling rate.
The maximum dynamic range between the needle jumping out of the groove
and chattering, and the hiss on the electronics and the vinyl itself was about 75dB on a vinyl record
CD will do 96dB, and with clever processing sound even better. up to 120dB.
CDs had one flaw initially - crossover distortion, due to the design of
the DACS, And sometimes a bit of weirdness in the high treble due to the
need to filter out the sampling frequency with cheap filters.Today
that's all gone. They too, are essentially perfect.
Unfortunately the quality of music is rubbish today. Crudely constructed
pop songs featuring nubile singers in skimpy clothing, done on a
shoestring and compressed down to be listened to on an earbud via a
massively compressed MP3 stream is nothing whatever to do with hi
fidelity audio.
The final message is, trust your ears, not the advertising, listen to choral music as the absolute best test, and forget about vinyl, pre amps
and power amps, gold plated cables and spend all the money you have on
the very best loudspeakers you can afford.
The test instruments confirm what you can hear, but no one has access to
test instruments and what they put in magazines is just the most basic
shit.
On 8/18/25 8:54 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 5:09 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-16 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:(Not having read the artical ...) Does this mean those 'hundreds' got a
On 16/08/2025 00:55, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:26:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian
not that can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
I think I'll make a bowl of popcorn, sit back, and watch. I
don''t know if it will help but I am behind Trump's firing of the
Bureau of Labor Statistics. It's not Trump, it's not recent, and
it doesn't always seem partisan but the pattern for years has
been
June Report: Everything is wonderful!
September, spoken in very quiet tones with no headlines: June's
report has been revised upward/downward. Typically the number of
new jobs is revised downward, inflation is upward. It's very
suspicious the revisions are always in the wrong direction.
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
In 4 years time we should know which ones were in fact vital public
servants and which ones were just pointless fat arsed bureaucrats
eating up public money . And the next gummint wiill quietly
reinstate the vital ones and use the excuse that 'Trump destroyed
the economy' to avoid rehiring the rest.,
<https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/05/weather/nws-rehiring-doge-layoffs-climate>
Weather Service is now hiring back hundreds of positions that got cut
in the DOGE chaos
By Andrew Freedman Aug 5, 2025
final separation package .... and are now being re-employed back into
their old positions with old pays??
What a Bargain for the U.S. of A. people!!
Well, 'return to old job at old salary' ... kind
of an even break IMHO.
DOGE was kind of OVER-enthusiastic. Had to be, that
was its mission. Retrospect SENSE will un-do some
of that. Not ALL of course, a lot of 'govt' WAS
redundant, useless, money-leeching, just for the
empowerment of the bureaucracy ...
And then the higher b-crats answered to very PARTISAN
masters ..........
Not so great.
Now HOW do we fit Linux into all this ? :-)
On 18/08/2025 06:09, c186282 wrote:
Despite the romantic BS, the "knights" were rarely
the friend of The People. They were the heavily-
armed guys who'd ride in and chop-up half the pop
of your village if you didn't bow low enough to
the Lord and pay his taxes.
In short, the kings THUGS.
Not exactly.
In the end they were the defenders of the people and knights alone could
not do that.
On 18/08/2025 7:58 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Nah. Knights didn't have navies. Only the king was rich enough for that
On 18/08/2025 06:09, c186282 wrote:
Despite the romantic BS, the "knights" were rarely
the friend of The People. They were the heavily-
armed guys who'd ride in and chop-up half the pop
of your village if you didn't bow low enough to
the Lord and pay his taxes.
In short, the kings THUGS.
Not exactly.
In the end they were the defenders of the people and knights alone
could not do that.
The Kings were the "Lords" that were rich enough to not only have
solders to 'defend' the people PLUS rich enough to have a fleet of Ships (i.e. a Navy) and the peasants/sailors to sail those ships.
On 17/08/2025 06:51, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:12:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As is a hood Kerb is a different word to curb.
Yes, one must kerb one's desire to curb stomp annoying people. Or
do I have it backwards.
Totally correct. A Curb is something you control a horse with
"The word "curb" has its origins in the Latin word "curvus," meaning
"bent" or "curved."
This root is the basis for the word's meaning of restraint or
control,
as it was first used to describe the curved part of a horse's bridle
that provides control."
Kerb shares the same roots. But has evolved to mean the thing that
holds the pavements (sidewalks) in place.
Same as we have sill and cill. Same thing, different context. Cars
have sills (rockers) Windows have cills.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:45:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 20:48, rbowman wrote:
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would
switch to French when they didn't want the kids to know what was
going on.
"Pas devant les domestiques..."
The maids are deviants? The other problem in my extended family was
the frogs drinking their beer warm,
which the krauts thought that was beyond the pale. They would put--
their differences aside to agree beer was a Sacrament.
William Jennings Bryan had a pretty good run but whispering
'prohibition' in the heavily German Midwest scuttled his last
attempt.
On 16/08/2025 9:13 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:45:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 20:48, rbowman wrote:
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would
switch to French when they didn't want the kids to know what was
going on.
"Pas devant les domestiques..."
The maids are deviants? The other problem in my extended family was
the frogs drinking their beer warm,
WHAT!! I thought it was the Pomms that liked warm beer! Do the Pomms AND
the Frogs actually agree on something?? ;-P
On 19/08/2025 06:52, c186282 wrote:
And then
each brand/model of AMP and PREAMP adds its own
subtle color.
No, it doesn't
Unless its shite
All 'good' amplifiers are indistinguishable
On 19/08/2025 4:12 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/18/25 8:54 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 5:09 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-16 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:(Not having read the artical ...) Does this mean those 'hundreds' got a
On 16/08/2025 00:55, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:26:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Geopolitics is fiendishly complicated and its not a Gordian
not that can be solved with one slice of a sword.
Even if that sword is called "tariffs"? Aw, damn.
I think I'll make a bowl of popcorn, sit back, and watch. I
don''t know if it will help but I am behind Trump's firing of the
Bureau of Labor Statistics. It's not Trump, it's not recent, and >>>>>> it doesn't always seem partisan but the pattern for years has
been
June Report: Everything is wonderful!
September, spoken in very quiet tones with no headlines: June's
report has been revised upward/downward. Typically the number of
new jobs is revised downward, inflation is upward. It's very
suspicious the revisions are always in the wrong direction.
Trump is firing everyone he doesn't like. He has the witchfinder
general's nose for 'wokery' .
In 4 years time we should know which ones were in fact vital public
servants and which ones were just pointless fat arsed bureaucrats
eating up public money . And the next gummint wiill quietly
reinstate the vital ones and use the excuse that 'Trump destroyed
the economy' to avoid rehiring the rest.,
<https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/05/weather/nws-rehiring-doge-
layoffs-climate>
Weather Service is now hiring back hundreds of positions that got cut
in the DOGE chaos
By Andrew Freedman Aug 5, 2025
final separation package .... and are now being re-employed back into
their old positions with old pays??
What a Bargain for the U.S. of A. people!!
Well, 'return to old job at old salary' ... kind
of an even break IMHO.
Sorry! My last was supposed to be sarcastic. I should have included some 'smileys' or something. ;-) Maybe ....
What a Bargain for the U.S. of A. people!! .... NOT!!
DOGE was kind of OVER-enthusiastic. Had to be, that
was its mission. Retrospect SENSE will un-do some
of that. Not ALL of course, a lot of 'govt' WAS
redundant, useless, money-leeching, just for the
empowerment of the bureaucracy ...
And then the higher b-crats answered to very PARTISAN
masters ..........
Not so great.
Now HOW do we fit Linux into all this ? :-)
Umm!! Well several FREE varieties of Linux ARE available. Save heaps of money.
When CDs came out, a local station made a big point of indicating when
they were playing a CD as opposed to vinyl - completely disregarding the
fact that the limitations of the FM signal was what limited the quality
you'd hear. And I got a big laugh the day one of their "indestructible"
CDs skipped.
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
On 8/18/25 20:22, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 01:03:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:30:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They
believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's
not.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about
science is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
Engineering works. In a technical university with fledgling engineers
and scientists that was a hot debate topic.
And bumblebees keep on flying despite analysis to the contrary.
On 19/08/2025 04:32, rbowman wrote:
The related question is why, with a continent full of potential slaves,
did the colonists choose to import Africans.
They had nowhere to escape to.
On 19/08/2025 15:29, Daniel70 wrote:
On 16/08/2025 9:13 am, rbowman wrote:Frogs do not normally drink beer. beer is Germanic. The Latin nations
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:45:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 20:48, rbowman wrote:
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would
switch to French when they didn't want the kids to know what was
going on.
"Pas devant les domestiques..."
The maids are deviants? The other problem in my extended family was
the frogs drinking their beer warm,
WHAT!! I thought it was the Pomms that liked warm beer! Do the Pomms AND
the Frogs actually agree on something?? ;-P
drink wine..
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
In any case, there were a lot of marriages between the Spaniards and the natives.
On 16/08/2025 9:13 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:45:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 20:48, rbowman wrote:
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would switch to
French when they didn't want the kids to know what was going on.
"Pas devant les domestiques..."
The maids are deviants? The other problem in my extended family was the
frogs drinking their beer warm,
WHAT!! I thought it was the Pomms that liked warm beer! Do the Pomms AND
the Frogs actually agree on something?? ;-P
Maybe a significant portion of the SACKED will be of a age that they
will not bother coming back, just continue into retirement .... so
Newbies will be employed .... decreasing the Unemployed numbers!!
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 13:15:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
The mission system in Spanish America was presented as improving the
natives' lot. Whether it did or not is a good question.
In any case, there were a lot of marriages between the Spaniards and the
natives.
The Spanish and French in America tended to have much more cordial
relations with the natives, so to speak, than the Anglos.
On 2025-08-19 16:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/08/2025 15:29, Daniel70 wrote:
On 16/08/2025 9:13 am, rbowman wrote:Frogs do not normally drink beer. beer is Germanic. The Latin nations
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:45:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 20:48, rbowman wrote:
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would
switch to French when they didn't want the kids to know what was
going on.
"Pas devant les domestiques..."
The maids are deviants? The other problem in my extended family was
the frogs drinking their beer warm,
WHAT!! I thought it was the Pomms that liked warm beer! Do the Pomms AND >>> the Frogs actually agree on something?? ;-P
drink wine..
Hum. Egyptians had beer. So did the Romans, albeit the higher classes preferred wine.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 13:15:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
The mission system in Spanish America was presented as improving the
natives' lot. Whether it did or not is a good question.
In any case, there were a lot of marriages between the Spaniards and the
natives.
The Spanish and French in America tended to have much more cordial
relations with the natives, so to speak, than the Anglos.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among the oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 21:02:04 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/18/25 20:22, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 01:03:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:30:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They >>>>>> believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's >>>>>> not.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about
science is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
Engineering works. In a technical university with fledgling engineers
and scientists that was a hot debate topic.
And bumblebees keep on flying despite analysis to the contrary.
We used Resnick & Halliday as the physics text. That was an obvious choice since Resnick worked at RPI. One of the classic problems was calculating terminal velocity using the coefficient of friction between the wheels and surface. The Cf couldn't exceed 1 obviously.
Not so obviously when the AA fuel dragsters started going through the
traps faster than they should have. High speed photography showed the
slicks doing very strange things.
Then there are the current flow conventions...
On 19/08/2025 03:10, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
a listener
may believe many things about cables and other connectors which
are not supported by any evidence.
It's very hard to sell a new audio component based on facts when in
reality pretty much all the electronics is so perfect that listening to
it will never show a difference
So they sell em based on lies.
On 19/08/2025 06:52, c186282 wrote:
I remember the older quality transistor AB amps.
"Technically" they were probably very good, but
the sound just seemed too "hard".
Put em on test equipment and you find crossover distortion
Swap to valves and get intermodulation distortion instead.
On 19/08/2025 06:52, c186282 wrote:
And then
each brand/model of AMP and PREAMP adds its own
subtle color.
No, it doesn't
Unless its shite
All 'good' amplifiers are indistinguishable
I believe that somewhere in a box in my garage I still have a copy of my Resnick & Halliday physics textbook from 1964. Gotta clean out that
garage some day....
The UK was all for good relations with the Original Occupants but that
was one reason for the colonials rebelling. A lot of the founders spoke
of Empire from the beginning and the idea that they would take the
continent from East to West. That happened in a relatively short time
due to gunpowder and improvement in long and short guns as well as an insatiable lust for land.
On 19/08/2025 07:38, c186282 wrote:
True. Human senses - audio, visual or whatever - doEven in a world based on material realism, there are only a limited
not have "infinite resolution".
number of photons available in seeing, and a limited number of molecules
in hearing.
Ultimately sight and sound are both digital.
What IS there is constantly influenced, biased, by aWell exactl,. 'authentic' is eh sort of word the Left uses,. Its cosy, uplifting morallu pure and essentially meaningless.
bunch of other subtle things. There is no such thing
as an 'authentic experience' - it's all dependent,
processes and sub-processed, colored and biased,
compressed and tweaked as best to fit our little brains.
The Buddha was kind of right when he said All Is
Illusion. (note Plato's Allegory Of The Cave ...
similar ultimate conclusion, but, after what
happened to Socrates, he didn't dare finish the
thought).
See Kant Shopenhauer and latterly Popper
At very best, well, we're "Goo-Ware" ... evolved to
best fit THIS kind of world.
Or is this world merely the only way we can see a reality that is way
beyond us anyway?
On 2025-08-19 07:33, c186282 wrote:
On 8/18/25 8:16 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 3:50 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<Snip>
Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle and
pop
And rumble flutter and wow.
The brain filtered that out pretty well.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Correct. And speaking about "perceived" .... I can remember listening
to an album (one of those big black discs) put out by 'Kraftwerk'
called 'Autobahn'. I was lying on the Lounge-room floor with
headphones on and, when the 'Autobahn' tune starts, the 'music'
(sound of a vehicle) is way off in the distance in one ear. Slowly
the 'music' (vehicle noise) gets louder and louder and LOUDER then
crosses to the other ear ..... then gets softer and softer as the
vehicle 'disappears' away back into the distance.
Just about sent me 'Cross-eyed' ever time I listened to it!! NICE!!
Bliss, even.
(Thanks for the memories!! ;-) )
Spectral readings and tech specs do NOT define
what "sounds great".
We're "goo-ware" - not hardware.
Surely we can define what should sound great on our measurement
instruments.
objective.
On 2025-08-19 05:32, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 18:00:30 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Slaves were taken by many means sometimes betrayed by relatives
who wanted to get people with a claim to power out of the way. Sometimes >>> captured in Tribal wars or taken in the conquest of villages. Then and
now there are still the Arabian slavers who sold across the sea and
North to the Arabian overlords.
Then there was the slave market in Dublin. I have no doubt some of the
product consisted of inconvenient people the Irish wanted to get rid of.
One thing I find interesting is the Cherokee used slaves that they had
captured from neighboring tribes. After the Europeans arrived they sound
it preferable to purchase African slaves and later took them with them on
the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma. They're still squabbling about the status
of the descendants.
The related question is why, with a continent full of potential slaves,
did the colonists choose to import Africans.
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
In any case, there were a lot of marriages between the Spaniards and the natives.
And, frankly, Led Zep sounded better on CHEAP
systems. Once bought a 're-mastered' set ...
listened to a few tracks ... been on the shelf
ever since. The relatives can deal with it once
I'm dead.
On 19/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-19 07:33, c186282 wrote:I spent 15 years designing audio.
On 8/18/25 8:16 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 3:50 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<Snip>
Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle
and pop
And rumble flutter and wow.
The brain filtered that out pretty well.
Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
Correct. And speaking about "perceived" .... I can remember
listening to an album (one of those big black discs) put out by
'Kraftwerk' called 'Autobahn'. I was lying on the Lounge-room floor
with headphones on and, when the 'Autobahn' tune starts, the 'music'
(sound of a vehicle) is way off in the distance in one ear. Slowly
the 'music' (vehicle noise) gets louder and louder and LOUDER then
crosses to the other ear ..... then gets softer and softer as the
vehicle 'disappears' away back into the distance.
Just about sent me 'Cross-eyed' ever time I listened to it!! NICE!!
Bliss, even.
(Thanks for the memories!! ;-) )
Spectral readings and tech specs do NOT define
what "sounds great".
We're "goo-ware" - not hardware.
Surely we can define what should sound great on our measurement
instruments. And once the rules are defined, that's repeatable and
objective.
In the end I could identify issues just by listening
On 2025-08-20, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
And, frankly, Led Zep sounded better on CHEAP
systems. Once bought a 're-mastered' set ...
listened to a few tracks ... been on the shelf
ever since. The relatives can deal with it once
I'm dead.
Records produced by the Warner/Elektra/Atlantic triumvirate
varied consistently in dynamic range. Turn up the volume
on a Warner recording and the sound came out and surrounded
you. Do the same on an Atlantic recording and it just got
loud. Elektra was somewhere in the middle.
Led Zeppelin and Yes were on Atlantic. Christopher Cross's
first album was on Warner Bros. - and it is beautiful.
On 8/19/25 12:02 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/18/25 20:22, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 01:03:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:30:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They >>>>>> believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's >>>>>> not.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about science >>>> is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
Engineering works. In a technical university with fledgling engineers
and
scientists that was a hot debate topic.
And bumblebees keep on flying despite analysis to the contrary.
Well, there's been Better Analysis since the 50s :-)
As for "The Science" these days - indeed post-WW2 -
BEWARE of political/military agendas.
Remember "Sunshine Units" ??? I do !
DUCK AND COVER !!!!!!!!
On 2025-08-19, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 19/08/2025 06:52, c186282 wrote:
And then
each brand/model of AMP and PREAMP adds its own
subtle color.
No, it doesn't
Unless its shite
All 'good' amplifiers are indistinguishable
Someone once put things into perspective by holding up
a piece of wire and claiming its frequency response was
superior to that of any preamp.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 17:57:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
When CDs came out, a local station made a big point of indicating when
they were playing a CD as opposed to vinyl - completely disregarding the
fact that the limitations of the FM signal was what limited the quality
you'd hear. And I got a big laugh the day one of their "indestructible"
CDs skipped.
The car radio (entertainment center?) has a CD player that I have very
rarely used. Mp3s don't skip on bad roads and it has a USB port.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among the oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
On 2025-08-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among the
oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
Maybe Trump and Putin can come up with similar hype,
except they'll carve Ukraine. (Turkey may come later.)
Not so obviously when the AA fuel dragsters started going through the
traps faster than they should have. High speed photography showed the
slicks doing very strange things.
Then there are the current flow conventions...
On 8/19/25 00:14, c186282 wrote:
On 8/19/25 12:02 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/18/25 20:22, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 01:03:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>>>
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:30:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They >>>>>>> believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's >>>>>>> not.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about
science
is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
Engineering works. In a technical university with fledgling
engineers and
scientists that was a hot debate topic.
And bumblebees keep on flying despite analysis to the contrary. >>
Well, there's been Better Analysis since the 50s :-)
As for "The Science" these days - indeed post-WW2 -
BEWARE of political/military agendas.
Remember "Sunshine Units" ??? I do !
I never heard of it before you mentioned it so I looked it up.
I was taught in roentgens and rads. The names and the limits have
been changed since I was in training in my 20s. At least that is what
I hear but I stay away from radiation and radioactive stuff as much
as possible. I avoid X rays.
DUCK AND COVER !!!!!!!!
Indeed it was taught in School and taught in the Military.
It was good advice if you were lucky enough to survive.
If you want to know about the horror of atomic attack read "Last Train to Nagasaki" or if that is too strenous look up the 12 volume
manga "Barefoot Gen"
as it is by a survivor who was quite young at the time. It was also an
amime
and maybe a Live Action movie. But the 12 volumes follow from the early horror to near adulthood and a move to Tokyo completes it.
I think Hershey's Hiroshima is not so effective as these two books.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 09:29:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/08/2025 04:32, rbowman wrote:
The related question is why, with a continent full of potential slaves,
did the colonists choose to import Africans.
They had nowhere to escape to.
They could have and some did. Presumably they were skilled at living off
the land in Africa
and could have quietly slipped away and went west.
Instead there were religious nuts like Nat Turner whose rebellion started
by killing all the whites they could find. That's not a good tactic when you're outnumbered and the whites repaid the favor twofold or more.
I don't know if they would have been welcomed by the indigenous peoples.
At least the Cherokee were much more stringent about miscegenation than
the whites and may have considered them somewhat less than human. In fact what most of the tribes called themselves translated to The Real People rather than the names the whites or other tribes called them. Not too many tribes would choose to name themselves Sankes, Headbashers, Big Bellies, Flatheads, or Pierced Noses.
The tactic was more successful in Haiti, leading to the festering shithole that it still is.
On 19/08/2025 19:21, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 17:57:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
When CDs came out, a local station made a big point of indicating when
they were playing a CD as opposed to vinyl - completely disregarding the >>> fact that the limitations of the FM signal was what limited the quality
you'd hear. And I got a big laugh the day one of their "indestructible" >>> CDs skipped.
The car radio (entertainment center?) has a CD player that I have very
rarely used. Mp3s don't skip on bad roads and it has a USB port.
I have to agree. I have a USB sick with almost all my music on it set to
play randomly.
On 2025-08-19 16:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/08/2025 15:29, Daniel70 wrote:
On 16/08/2025 9:13 am, rbowman wrote:Frogs do not normally drink beer. beer is Germanic. The Latin nations
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:45:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 20:48, rbowman wrote:
There were some Canadiens in my extended family. They would
switch to French when they didn't want the kids to know what was
going on.
"Pas devant les domestiques..."
The maids are deviants? The other problem in my extended family was
the frogs drinking their beer warm,
WHAT!! I thought it was the Pomms that liked warm beer! Do the Pomms AND >>> the Frogs actually agree on something?? ;-P
drink wine..
Hum. Egyptians had beer. So did the Romans, albeit the higher classes preferred wine.
On 19/08/2025 19:26, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS' >>> troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among the
oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
It is however the first time that the Norman French nobility challenged
the absolute authority of the King.
And therefore is celebrated as a milestone on the long road to
approximate democracy.
Along with parliament beheading the king...
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 13:15:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
The mission system in Spanish America was presented as improving the
natives' lot. Whether it did or not is a good question.
In any case, there were a lot of marriages between the Spaniards and the
natives.
The Spanish and French in America tended to have much more cordial
relations with the natives, so to speak, than the Anglos.
On 20/08/2025 00:10, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS' >>>> troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among the >>> oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
Maybe Trump and Putin can come up with similar hype,
except they'll carve Ukraine. (Turkey may come later.)
Hah. What is apparent that the USA has abrogated its responsibility to European security, and has no cards left to play.
It's down to Europe, including Ukraine, to settle this one.
Trump can't have his cake and eat it too. Either he is in Europe's
security or he aint. And if he isn't prepared to up the ante, he cant
sit at the table.
On 19/08/2025 19:41, rbowman wrote:
Not so obviously when the AA fuel dragsters started going through the
traps faster than they should have. High speed photography showed the
slicks doing very strange things.
Then there are the current flow conventions...
When you learn engineering, you learn that most derived 'laws' are not
laws at all. They are handy approximations to limited cases.
Coefficient of friction is just one of them. Coefficient of elasticity
is another one.
Enormous mistakes are made by people *believing* in (limited) *models*
of reality, rather than reality itself.
Well ... brands/series CAN have tonal 'flavors'
that are a bit different. All good, just a little
'different'.
Note the "McIntosh Sound" in higher-end equipment.
It IS distinctive. It's not 'wrong' or 'bad', just
a little 'different' from the others. Using cone
or planar or electostatic or plasma speakers ...
again each is a little 'different'.
Quote tech specs all you will ... it's ALL feeding
into US, goo-ware, a 4+ billion year old evolutionary
product. So, what "sounds great" is what sounds great
to US ... not a bank of instrumentation.
Heh, heh ... just tried to look at a McIntosh reseller,
"Crutchfield". The site wanted me to Prove I'm Human.
Nope. NO SALE assholes.
DO note that we're talking $5000-$25000 amps here ...
Besides the groovy looks, are they THAT much better
than something from Best Buy ???
Only to the people you're trying to impress 🙂
Me, I like cones + tube/valve amps - best was
class-A, but it ran HOT all the time. Maybe
not the best for hard-2-get valves. IMHO, go
with Vandersteen 2C(x) series while your ears
are still young enough to really tell the diff.
Magneplanars ARE the 'clearest', most 'transparent',
but they DO need a lot of watts AND some sub-woofs
to cover the low end.
I once saw some place trying to make 'fake valves',
literal vacuum tech but instead of the hot filament
they substituted nano-etched emitter 'spines' for
the hot cathode. Otherwise typical pentode layout.
In THEORY vastly longer life but with valve
'characteristics', esp for audio. Not sure what
became of this tech. Sort of a merger of olde-tyme
and modern micro-engineering.
Hmmm ... my spell-checker doesn't RECOGNIZE the
word "pentode" .....
"Real" ??? Likely some kind of 10-dimensional
temporally/causally-indistinct sub-quantum sort
of thing. We CAN'T really grasp it - and even if
we could it wouldn't usefully inform our daily
lives.
And that seems to be "reality". Sucks eh ?
Surely we can define what should sound great on our measurement
instruments.
You would THINK so ... but it's not that simple
Extreme objective distortion and such, yea, you
can make a good call. But the finer stuff .....
And, frankly, Led Zep sounded better on CHEAP
systems. Once bought a 're-mastered' set ...
listened to a few tracks ... been on the shelf
ever since. The relatives can deal with it once
I'm dead.
That's kind of the point in this discussion - "by listening".
What "sounds best' to goo-ware things like us is NOT
easily resolved by mere instrumentation/figures/stats.
I stay away from radiation and radioactive stuff as much
as possible. I avoid X rays.
On 8/20/25 4:55 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/08/2025 19:26, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS' >>>> troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among the >>> oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
It is however the first time that the Norman French nobility
challenged the absolute authority of the King.
"Magna" WAS unique in Europe at the time.
But, in NO way, anything to do with Power
To The People.
And therefore is celebrated as a milestone on the long road to
approximate democracy.
Along with parliament beheading the king...
Took more than one rolling head ...
On 8/20/25 4:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/08/2025 00:10, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS' >>>>> troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among
the
oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
Maybe Trump and Putin can come up with similar hype,
except they'll carve Ukraine. (Turkey may come later.)
Hah. What is apparent that the USA has abrogated its responsibility to
European security, and has no cards left to play.
It's down to Europe, including Ukraine, to settle this one.
Don't expect anything THAT good ...
Trump can't have his cake and eat it too. Either he is in Europe's
security or he aint. And if he isn't prepared to up the ante, he cant
sit at the table.
Trump has to Look Good. Putin has to Look Good.
A few of the crap EU leaders have to vaguely
SEEM to Look Good.
That's how it works...
On 8/20/25 5:04 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/08/2025 19:41, rbowman wrote:
Not so obviously when the AA fuel dragsters started going through the
traps faster than they should have. High speed photography showed the
slicks doing very strange things.
Then there are the current flow conventions...
When you learn engineering, you learn that most derived 'laws' are not
laws at all. They are handy approximations to limited cases.
Coefficient of friction is just one of them. Coefficient of elasticity
is another one.
Enormous mistakes are made by people *believing* in (limited) *models*
of reality, rather than reality itself.
HEY - You're GETTING it ! :-)
Anyone who believes 'The Science' and it's
recent 'models' define what is/will-be -
just IDIOTS.
Alas, esp since Al Gore, you just can't
entirely trust "The Science" - TOO much
politics/propaganda mixed in. Bummer.
Mid 50s and most of the 60s ... The State did all
it could to HIDE what a nukewar would DO.
Hey, no problem, hide in a CD shelter overnight and
it'd be All Ok !
On 19/08/2025 15:07, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 7:58 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Nah. Knights didn't have navies. Only the king was rich enough for that
On 18/08/2025 06:09, c186282 wrote:
Despite the romantic BS, the "knights" were rarely
the friend of The People. They were the heavily-
armed guys who'd ride in and chop-up half the pop
of your village if you didn't bow low enough to
the Lord and pay his taxes.
In short, the kings THUGS.
Not exactly.
In the end they were the defenders of the people and knights alone
could not do that.
The Kings were the "Lords" that were rich enough to not only have
solders to 'defend' the people PLUS rich enough to have a fleet of
Ships (i.e. a Navy) and the peasants/sailors to sail those ships.
Point is it was relatively stable until the Black Death killed off everyone--
On 8/20/25 3:15 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/19/25 00:14, c186282 wrote:
On 8/19/25 12:02 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/18/25 20:22, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 01:03:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>>>>
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:30:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>
On 16/08/2025 14:47, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Unfortunately, for very many people it is exactly that.
Le 16-08-2025, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> a écrit :
You have a touching faith in The Science.
That's the misunderstood answer to scientists from believers. They >>>>>>>> believe that science is a belief like any other religion, when it's >>>>>>>> not.
Doesn’t matter what people believe. The interesting thing about
science
is, it works whether you believe in it or not.
Engineering works. In a technical university with fledgling
engineers and
scientists that was a hot debate topic.
And bumblebees keep on flying despite analysis to the contrary. >>>
Well, there's been Better Analysis since the 50s :-)
As for "The Science" these days - indeed post-WW2 -
BEWARE of political/military agendas.
Remember "Sunshine Units" ??? I do !
I never heard of it before you mentioned it so I looked it up.
I was taught in roentgens and rads. The names and the limits have
been changed since I was in training in my 20s. At least that is what
I hear but I stay away from radiation and radioactive stuff as much
as possible. I avoid X rays.
A massive euph - so "friendly sounding"
Been there. Heard it.
DUCK AND COVER !!!!!!!!
Indeed it was taught in School and taught in the Military.
It was good advice if you were lucky enough to survive.
Clue - you WOULD NOT .......
You'd be horribly burnt and irradiated. Yer little
kiddies SCREAMING as they died.
If you want to know about the horror of atomic attack read "Last >> Train to Nagasaki" or if that is too strenous look up the 12 volume
manga "Barefoot Gen"
as it is by a survivor who was quite young at the time. It was also an
amime
and maybe a Live Action movie. But the 12 volumes follow from the early
horror to near adulthood and a move to Tokyo completes it.
I think Hershey's Hiroshima is not so effective as these two books.
Mid 50s and most of the 60s ... The State did all
it could to HIDE what a nukewar would DO.
Hey, no problem, hide in a CD shelter overnight andGen's head was exposed to the radiation and for a while he
it'd be All Ok !
I think he tried to tell the Japanese that there was no need to evacuate around Fukushima and he was completely right. The evacuation killed more people than radiation ever could have.
One of the more amusing things coming out of the Fukushima accident, was
the Italian embassy evacuating its staff from Tokyo to Rome, where
someone pointed out that Rome itself is and always has been, more
radioactive than Fukushima ever was..let alone Tokyo!
My car is Too Old .... CD/Casette ... NO USB.
'
Kinda like it that way ... the car doesn't
SPY on me. Better to put thousands into
keeping it going than to accept the
Horrible Future Paradigm.
Kinda LOOKING for a mid 60s restored car.
Doesn't have to be anything spectacular.
A Falcon maybe.
An old (deceased) bud of mine had a '64
Mercury ... straight-6, NO BS. It was a
Really Good Car.
Admittedly Hitler came to power legitimately - and
because the previous order had totally fucked up
everything. It was just horrible. Hitler had a way
out of it. Germany went to scraping the bottom to
kings in just a few years. Everybody loved Hitler.
But, megalomania ... power corrupts and absolute power .....
No Idea what McIntosh is.,..
The smallpox thing ... accident.
Kinda LOOKING for a mid 60s restored car.
Doesn't have to be anything spectacular.
A Falcon maybe.
An old (deceased) bud of mine had a '64 Mercury ... straight-6, NO
BS. It was a Really Good Car.
I'm with you. I don't know what I'm going to do when our cars (2007
Honda Civic and 1998 Suzuki Esteem) finally give up the ghost. I'll
probably be loking for older cars myself. Unless I can find some sort
of "how to hack your car" tutorial...
I'm a sequence freak (shuffle doesn't work too well on concept albums or podcasts where you want the episodes in sequence), so that's not an
option for me. I have an MP3 player which I can coax to play albums in sequence; I plug it into the car radio's analog input (which is more
than good enough given road noise, etc.).
I've heard that the real reason a nuclear power plant couldn't be built
in Grand Central Station is that the background radiation from its
granite blocks exceeds the limits set for power plants.
On 20/08/2025 00:10, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:Hah. What is apparent that the USA has abrogated its responsibility to European security, and has no cards left to play.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the
'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among
the oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
Maybe Trump and Putin can come up with similar hype, except they'll
carve Ukraine. (Turkey may come later.)
It's down to Europe, including Ukraine, to settle this one.
I had a long conversation with a Mexican guy who rented me a car whilst
in the Yucatan, He said that there is a class system in Mexico which is pretty much identified by how Spanish you are. As opposed to Indian.
A couple of years later the Falcons morphed into the Mustang and it was
also the basis for the Ranchero for a while. A lot of people associate 'cowboy Cadillac' with the El Camino but Ford got there first with the
full sized Ranchero in the late '50s. Then it shrunk in the Falcon based years and got bigger again.
On 19/08/2025 19:26, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among
the oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
It is however the first time that the Norman French nobility challenged
the absolute authority of the King.
And therefore is celebrated as a milestone on the long road to
approximate democracy.
Along with parliament beheading the king...
What we have evolved is a reasonable balance of political power
reflecting the underlying reality of who does have (financial) power in
our society.
On 19/08/2025 19:41, rbowman wrote:
Not so obviously when the AA fuel dragsters started going through the
traps faster than they should have. High speed photography showed the
slicks doing very strange things.
Then there are the current flow conventions...
When you learn engineering, you learn that most derived 'laws' are not
laws at all. They are handy approximations to limited cases.
Coefficient of friction is just one of them. Coefficient of elasticity
is another one.
Enormous mistakes are made by people *believing* in (limited) *models*
of reality, rather than reality itself.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 11:18:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What we have evolved is a reasonable balance of political power
reflecting the underlying reality of who does have (financial) power in
our society.
We have the best government money can buy.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 01:13:44 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The smallpox thing ... accident.
The Europeans traded smallpox for syphilis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphilis#Origin,_spread_and_discovery
Oh and I think we have the Worst Government you
can buy. Sadly tax money contracts are for sale to the people who need
it least. Just donate to Trump's Presidential Library or other Trumpian Function.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 05:15:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Kinda LOOKING for a mid 60s restored car.
Doesn't have to be anything spectacular.
A Falcon maybe.
An old (deceased) bud of mine had a '64 Mercury ... straight-6, NO
BS. It was a Really Good Car.
I had a '62 Falcon Futura with a 170 ci straight six. White with a black vinyl roof it looked like a shrunken T-Bird so I referred to it as the Thunder Chicken. It was a great winter car; I think it had some Jeep DNA.
https://falconclub.com/falcons-pages/the-ford-falcon/1962-ford-falcon/ 1962-falcon-futura/
A couple of years later the Falcons morphed into the Mustang and it was
also the basis for the Ranchero for a while. A lot of people associate 'cowboy Cadillac' with the El Camino but Ford got there first with the
full sized Ranchero in the late '50s. Then it shrunk in the Falcon based years and got bigger again.
I think today cowboy Cadillac is used for luxury mega-pickups than the
sedan based versions of that era.
On 2025-08-20, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
A couple of years later the Falcons morphed into the Mustang and it was
also the basis for the Ranchero for a while. A lot of people associate
'cowboy Cadillac' with the El Camino but Ford got there first with the
full sized Ranchero in the late '50s. Then it shrunk in the Falcon based
years and got bigger again.
I referred to the El Camino as a "city slicker's pickup truck".
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 11:18:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What we have evolved is a reasonable balance of political power
reflecting the underlying reality of who does have (financial) power in
our society.
We have the best government money can buy.
On 8/20/25 22:08, c186282 wrote:
On 8/20/25 4:28 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 11:18:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What we have evolved is a reasonable balance of political power
reflecting the underlying reality of who does have (financial) power in >>>> our society.
We have the best government money can buy.
Absolutely ! Nothing better !
Apparently the UK couldn't keep up with
the concept - NOW look at it ...
In any case, read yer Machiavelli. This is
how it's been done for a VERY long time.
There's the "public" govt, then the REAL
govt just behind the scenes that does the
actual work of making things work well,
keeps the money-tree alive.
Maybe too it had something to do with the people
writing the Coonstitution. All property owners many of
them owning human property. What a vile concept.
Early USA ... they wanted only PROPERTY OWNERS
to vote. Property gave you a stake, some
permanence, tangible worth with future
possibilities. As such, property owners
were considered more reliable, more 'vested',
and thus more thoughtful voters.
That went away pretty soon, but the CONCEPT
wasn't insane.
No but it was selfish. A lot of the people who served
under GW were without property. The owners of property
have set up the laws so that people without property can
scarcely afford to get property or even much portable
wealth.
On 8/20/25 4:28 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 11:18:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What we have evolved is a reasonable balance of political power
reflecting the underlying reality of who does have (financial) power in
our society.
We have the best government money can buy.
Absolutely ! Nothing better !
Apparently the UK couldn't keep up with
the concept - NOW look at it ...
In any case, read yer Machiavelli. This is
how it's been done for a VERY long time.
There's the "public" govt, then the REAL
govt just behind the scenes that does the
actual work of making things work well,
keeps the money-tree alive.
Early USA ... they wanted only PROPERTY OWNERS
to vote. Property gave you a stake, some
permanence, tangible worth with future
possibilities. As such, property owners
were considered more reliable, more 'vested',
and thus more thoughtful voters.
That went away pretty soon, but the CONCEPT
wasn't insane.
On 8/20/25 12:05, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 01:13:44 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The smallpox thing ... accident.
The Europeans traded smallpox for syphilis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphilis#Origin,_spread_and_discovery
It was a skin disease in Calfornia's Original Occupants but but the time
it got to Europe it gained all the horrific symptoms that marked it for
many
years.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 09:59:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/08/2025 00:10, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:Hah. What is apparent that the USA has abrogated its responsibility to
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the
'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among
the oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
Maybe Trump and Putin can come up with similar hype, except they'll
carve Ukraine. (Turkey may come later.)
European security, and has no cards left to play.
It's down to Europe, including Ukraine, to settle this one.
As it always should have been. Nuland & Crew should have never been
involved in the first place.
On 2025-08-20, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I think he tried to tell the Japanese that there was no need to evacuate
around Fukushima and he was completely right. The evacuation killed more
people than radiation ever could have.
Funny how selective people are when counting deaths. When protesting
nuclear power in favour of good old coal, few people mention the number
of miners who died of black lung. For that matter, there were probably
more people killed at railroad crossings by coal trains than ever died
as a result of a nuclear power plant.
One of the more amusing things coming out of the Fukushima accident, was
the Italian embassy evacuating its staff from Tokyo to Rome, where
someone pointed out that Rome itself is and always has been, more
radioactive than Fukushima ever was..let alone Tokyo!
I've heard that the real reason a nuclear power plant couldn't be built
in Grand Central Station is that the background radiation from its granite blocks exceeds the limits set for power plants.
I consider Three Mile Island an advertisement for how safe nuclear
power really is when done right.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 09:59:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It's down to Europe, including Ukraine, to settle this one.
As it always should have been. Nuland & Crew should have never been
involved in the first place.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 10:17:28 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I had a long conversation with a Mexican guy who rented me a car whilst
in the Yucatan, He said that there is a class system in Mexico which is
pretty much identified by how Spanish you are. As opposed to Indian.
That is also the case in the US. Until recently lighter skin was also
favored by blacks.
Sheinbaum, the current president of Mexico, doesn't fit the Spanish
template. Both parents are European Jews.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 17:21:39 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I've heard that the real reason a nuclear power plant couldn't be built
in Grand Central Station is that the background radiation from its
granite blocks exceeds the limits set for power plants.
https://merrywidowhealthmine.com/
It's good for you. Radon testing was a flourishing cottage industry in New Hampshire (The Granite State).
The USA should HAVE NEVER adopted a 'responsibility' for
European security. We soon would up subsidizing all the
'socialist' free-money crap over there. So, now, let
the EU watch it's own ass. They CAN afford it, IF
they quit with the luxury housing for Islamists and
a few other things.
USA provided HEAVY support to Ukraine for YEARS. It
is why the Russians couldn't just walk over the
entire country in a month. However the COST was very
extreme, and the EU didn't want to spend a penny.
Again, now, let Europe watch it's own ass. USA
will help, a little, but ....
Seems like every trick and variation has been
tried over the past century. Now if somebody
has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap V-twin
cycle engine spliced in I might be interested
in buying 🙂
On 8/20/25 4:00 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 09:59:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/08/2025 00:10, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:Hah. What is apparent that the USA has abrogated its responsibility to
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the >>>>>> 'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among >>>>> the oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
Maybe Trump and Putin can come up with similar hype, except they'll
carve Ukraine. (Turkey may come later.)
European security, and has no cards left to play.
It's down to Europe, including Ukraine, to settle this one.
As it always should have been. Nuland & Crew should have never been
involved in the first place.
The USA should HAVE NEVER adopted a 'responsibility' for
European security. We soon would up subsidizing all the
'socialist' free-money crap over there. So, now, let
the EU watch it's own ass. They CAN afford it, IF
they quit with the luxury housing for Islamists and
a few other things.
USA provided HEAVY support to Ukraine for YEARS. It
is why the Russians couldn't just walk over the
entire country in a month. However the COST was very
extreme, and the EU didn't want to spend a penny.
Again, now, let Europe watch it's own ass. USA
will help, a little, but ....
On 8/19/25 7:15 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-19 05:32, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 18:00:30 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Slaves were taken by many means sometimes betrayed by relatives >>>> who wanted to get people with a claim to power out of the way.
Sometimes
captured in Tribal wars or taken in the conquest of villages. Then and >>>> now there are still the Arabian slavers who sold across the sea and
North to the Arabian overlords.
Then there was the slave market in Dublin. I have no doubt some of the
product consisted of inconvenient people the Irish wanted to get rid of. >>>
One thing I find interesting is the Cherokee used slaves that they had
captured from neighboring tribes. After the Europeans arrived they sound >>> it preferable to purchase African slaves and later took them with
them on
the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma. They're still squabbling about the
status
of the descendants.
The related question is why, with a continent full of potential slaves,
did the colonists choose to import Africans.
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
In any case, there were a lot of marriages between the Spaniards and
the natives.
Sex slaves have always been popular.
Find the "Code Of Ur-Nammu" ... 5000+ year old
laws writ on tablets. Plenty of stuff about
slaves ... and it wasn't so great.
Ah :
https://www.worldhistory.org/Code_of_Ur-Nammu/
I can only fault Spain to a certain extent.
Their view of power/conquest really wasn't
THAT much different from the S.American
cultures. It was the tech/organization that
let them become Top Dog ... not anything
ethically/morally/intellectually inferior
or superior. The locals could have all
kicked Spanish ass - but the native pols
all saw them as useful allies against
their own local enemies/rivals.
The smallpox thing ... accident.
Owned a later-model Falcon for awhile ... 200 engine.
Very good car, and there was enough space under the bonnet to
basically climb in to do maint.
Mustang people don't want to ADMIT they were just Falcons with a
sexier bod bolted on
1960s to mid 70s ... standard "station wagons" were in almost every
driveway. Not as much room as today's SUVs, but Good Enough - and
lower-profile. Some had very big engines too. Neighbor had one with a
440 + 4-barrel. It'd MOVE (and the fuel gauge moved almost as
quickly).
A place I worked had a heavy flatbed truck with a straight-8 ... dual
water pumps as I recall ... and ran on six volts. NON-sync
transmission -
you had to shift it JUST RIGHT or the lever would snap back hard
enough to crack a bone.
Seems like every trick and variation has been tried over the past
century. Now if somebody has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap V-twin
cycle engine spliced in I might be interested in buying
Shortly after the revolution, western-land restrictions gone, a LOT
of people became property owners.
Maybe too it had something to do with the people
writing the Coonstitution. All property owners many of them owning human property. What a vile concept.
On 20/08/2025 21:00, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 09:59:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Well the USA did sign a guarantee of Ukraine's sovereignty in return for
It's down to Europe, including Ukraine, to settle this one.
As it always should have been. Nuland & Crew should have never been
involved in the first place.
them giving up their nukes.,
But sure. America always rats out on its promises
It did fill that role ... but was also very popular
out in the burbs and beyond. It was sort of a truck,
sort of a car, not sure WHY it has such appeal but yet it DOES.
The Tesla truck is a sort of rip-off of the design principle - but
I'd never buy one, too weird.
I do as well, As they say, more people died at Chappaquiddick Bridge
than at three mile island...
On 20/08/2025 21:21, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 10:17:28 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I had a long conversation with a Mexican guy who rented me a car
whilst in the Yucatan, He said that there is a class system in Mexico
which is pretty much identified by how Spanish you are. As opposed to
Indian.
That is also the case in the US. Until recently lighter skin was also
favored by blacks.
Sheinbaum, the current president of Mexico, doesn't fit the Spanish
template. Both parents are European Jews.
Unnecessary detail
On 2025-08-07 22:09, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:40:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't know about those, but "real" floppy drives did not have an
actual controller, rather an interface. Nothing smart. The CPU had to
time all operations itself. Notice when the hole marking start of track
passes, read, count sectors, time the write operation... everything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Digital_FD1771
I don't know what you consider a 'real' floppy.
Not an USB connected floppy driver, but any of the ones we bough in the 80's or 80's to install on our PCs.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 22:46:31 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Maybe too it had something to do with the people
writing the Coonstitution. All property owners many of them owning human
property. What a vile concept.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays's_Rebellion
Can't have farmers and such getting uppity. Funny how Sam Adams decided
there were good rebellions and bad rebellions. One man's freedom
fighter...
Somehow the speculators who had bought up the debt incurred during the war for pennies on the dollar were made whole by the new government while the yeomen who had financed the war were screwed. So it goes.
On Thu, 8/7/2025 4:23 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-07 22:09, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:40:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't know about those, but "real" floppy drives did not have an
actual controller, rather an interface. Nothing smart. The CPU had to
time all operations itself. Notice when the hole marking start of track >>>> passes, read, count sectors, time the write operation... everything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Digital_FD1771
I don't know what you consider a 'real' floppy.
Not an USB connected floppy driver, but any of the ones we bough in the 80's or 80's to install on our PCs.
The ones in the early days, used the main CPU as an IOP and
the CPU was required to respond in real time (NOPs to adjust the
timing), when writing after seeing an index mark. If you were
smart (not many people were smart back then), you would use an
IOP to control a thing like this and hide the details.
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/765_FDC
Even though our OS was multitasking, and most I/O was async,
the floppy was the exception, as the management felt (of all things),
they would not bother doing a separate IOP for the floppy and
they would drive it directly. Other functions, used a 6809 as an
IOP. One of the funny/ironic parts, is the PCB with the '765 on it,
had scads of room for an IOP, the PCB was only 25% used. It's likely
the hardest part of such a design, would be finding someone to write
firmware for such crusty materials (not as easy as you would think).
The person who tweaked the assembler for that dumb floppy chip,
he used to use a 465 oscilloscope, to check that his timing was
correct at the hardware level. That is what a pain in the ass
this particular interface is. Oscilloscope material, and needs
scoping every time something changes elsewhere in the system.
If the main CPU changed from 8MHz to 12MHz, the source has to be
opened up again and tuned. (The 465 was preferred for this, because
you could wheel the scope cart into a cubicle and it would fit.)
When you did any I/O on the (direct-drive) floppy, the entire OS would stop, the code would enter the floppy assembler and "do stuff".
There were other companies doing this too. When AppleTalk (on a
serial port at perhaps 224Kbit/sec) wanted to send packets, I
think that took assembler code to keep up, and any kind of
tasking went out the window during network operations. At a comparable
time where I worked, we considered it a "victory" when a serial
port ran at 9600 :-)
On 2025-08-21, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 22:46:31 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Maybe too it had something to do with the people
writing the Coonstitution. All property owners many of them owning
human property. What a vile concept.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays's_Rebellion
Can't have farmers and such getting uppity. Funny how Sam Adams decided
there were good rebellions and bad rebellions. One man's freedom
fighter...
Somehow the speculators who had bought up the debt incurred during the
war for pennies on the dollar were made whole by the new government
while the yeomen who had financed the war were screwed. So it goes.
Sounds like an early version of "too big to fail".
I know of this because back then I read an article in a computer magazine where they wrote a "driver" or something that multiplied the capacity of floppies, playing with the timings. The article went into all the gory details.
I wonder how Linux implemented the floppy routines, though. At some point, someone had to write floppy handling code that worked on any PC, CPU and speed.
Linux may have handled "better" floppy controller blocks than the one in
the example. Did Linux ever work with 8" floppy drives ?
I think the hardware had advanced a bit past that point.
On Thu, 8/7/2025 4:23 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-07 22:09, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 14:40:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't know about those, but "real" floppy drives did not have an
actual controller, rather an interface. Nothing smart. The CPU had to
time all operations itself. Notice when the hole marking start of track >>>> passes, read, count sectors, time the write operation... everything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Digital_FD1771
I don't know what you consider a 'real' floppy.
Not an USB connected floppy driver, but any of the ones we bough in the 80's or 80's to install on our PCs.
The ones in the early days, used the main CPU as an IOP and
the CPU was required to respond in real time (NOPs to adjust the
timing), when writing after seeing an index mark. If you were
smart (not many people were smart back then), you would use an
IOP to control a thing like this and hide the details.
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/765_FDC
Even though our OS was multitasking, and most I/O was async,
the floppy was the exception, as the management felt (of all things),
they would not bother doing a separate IOP for the floppy and
they would drive it directly. Other functions, used a 6809 as an
IOP. One of the funny/ironic parts, is the PCB with the '765 on it,
had scads of room for an IOP, the PCB was only 25% used. It's likely
the hardest part of such a design, would be finding someone to write
firmware for such crusty materials (not as easy as you would think).
The person who tweaked the assembler for that dumb floppy chip,
he used to use a 465 oscilloscope, to check that his timing was
correct at the hardware level. That is what a pain in the ass
this particular interface is. Oscilloscope material, and needs
scoping every time something changes elsewhere in the system.
If the main CPU changed from 8MHz to 12MHz, the source has to be
opened up again and tuned. (The 465 was preferred for this, because
you could wheel the scope cart into a cubicle and it would fit.)
When you did any I/O on the (direct-drive) floppy, the entire OS would stop, the code would enter the floppy assembler and "do stuff".
There were other companies doing this too. When AppleTalk (on a
serial port at perhaps 224Kbit/sec) wanted to send packets, I
think that took assembler code to keep up, and any kind of
tasking went out the window during network operations. At a comparable
time where I worked, we considered it a "victory" when a serial
port ran at 9600 :-)
Paul
On Thu, 8/21/2025 6:43 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I know of this because back then I read an article in a computer magazine where they wrote a "driver" or something that multiplied the capacity of floppies, playing with the timings. The article went into all the gory details.
I wonder how Linux implemented the floppy routines, though. At some point, someone had to write floppy handling code that worked on any PC, CPU and speed.
Linux may have handled "better" floppy controller blocks than
the one in the example. Did Linux ever work with 8" floppy drives ?
I think the hardware had advanced a bit past that point.
Even our last machine with 8" floppy in it, the staff were basically
ignoring the floppy. Back when the only thing you owned was a floppy,
it was much more important that it work. Some of our server configurations, seemed to boot off the floppy :-) I think the print server worked that way. You'd boot the floppy and you had a print server.
On Thu, 8/21/2025 6:43 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I know of this because back then I read an article in a computer magazine where they wrote a "driver" or something that multiplied the capacity of floppies, playing with the timings. The article went into all the gory details.
I wonder how Linux implemented the floppy routines, though. At some point, someone had to write floppy handling code that worked on any PC, CPU and speed.
Linux may have handled "better" floppy controller blocks than
the one in the example. Did Linux ever work with 8" floppy drives ?
I think the hardware had advanced a bit past that point.
Even our last machine with 8" floppy in it, the staff were basically
ignoring the floppy. Back when the only thing you owned was a floppy,
it was much more important that it work. Some of our server configurations, seemed to boot off the floppy :-) I think the print server worked that way. You'd boot the floppy and you had a print server.
I wonder how Linux implemented the floppy routines, though. At some
point, someone had to write floppy handling code that worked on any PC,
CPU and speed.
Mil systems tend to be specced
like ten or twelve years before you see actual product.
On Thu, 21 Aug 2025 10:36:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I do as well, As they say, more people died at Chappaquiddick Bridge
than at three mile island...
Unfortunately Fat Teddy wasn't one of them. Teddy was against illegal immigration until someone mentioned his favorite Irish bartender was a wet back. That' and being Teddy, I'm sure they had even juicier stuff to
convince him to join Celler's team of shabbas goys. Of course Kennedy
swore the Immigration Act wasn't going to change the US's demographics.
I regret I left the east coast 20 years to early and didn't get a chance
to piss on his grave.
On 21/08/2025 23:43, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I wonder how Linux implemented the floppy routines, though. At someI am not sure that linux supports any more than the obvious 5 1/4" and
point, someone had to write floppy handling code that worked on any PC,
CPU and speed.
3.5" media. Maybe 8" as well.
On 8/20/25 4:28 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 11:18:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What we have evolved is a reasonable balance of political power
reflecting the underlying reality of who does have (financial) power in
our society.
We have the best government money can buy.
Absolutely ! Nothing better !
Apparently the UK couldn't keep up with
the concept - NOW look at it ...
In any case, read yer Machiavelli. This is
how it's been done for a VERY long time.
There's the "public" govt, then the REAL
govt just behind the scenes that does the
actual work of making things work well,
keeps the money-tree alive.
Early USA ... they wanted only PROPERTY OWNERS
to vote. Property gave you a stake, some--
permanence, tangible worth with future
possibilities. As such, property owners
were considered more reliable, more 'vested',
and thus more thoughtful voters.
That went away pretty soon, but the CONCEPT
wasn't insane.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among the oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
On 2025-08-21 06:51, c186282 wrote:
Seems like every trick and variation has been
tried over the past century. Now if somebody
has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap V-twin
cycle engine spliced in I might be interested
in buying 🙂
An electric 2CV is planned for 2028 :-p
<https://2cev.co.uk/>
<https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/citron-2cv-electric-revival>
On 22/08/2025 08:30, c186282 wrote:
Mil systems tend to be specced
like ten or twelve years before you see actual product.
I worked on an anti-missile missile system in 1968 that actually ended
up working in the Falklands war in 1982...
I wonder if any of the hardware I designed was ever in it....
On 21/08/2025 3:08 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/20/25 4:28 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2025 11:18:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What we have evolved is a reasonable balance of political power
reflecting the underlying reality of who does have (financial) power in >>>> our society.
We have the best government money can buy.
Absolutely ! Nothing better !
Apparently the UK couldn't keep up with
the concept - NOW look at it ...
In any case, read yer Machiavelli. This is
how it's been done for a VERY long time.
There's the "public" govt, then the REAL
govt just behind the scenes that does the
actual work of making things work well,
keeps the money-tree alive.
Early USA ... they wanted only PROPERTY OWNERS
Or did they only want *MALE* PROPERTY OWNERS??
to vote. Property gave you a stake, some
permanence, tangible worth with future
possibilities. As such, property owners
were considered more reliable, more 'vested',
and thus more thoughtful voters.
That went away pretty soon, but the CONCEPT
wasn't insane.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 11:22:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <1089ge2$1fvl9$8@dont-email.me>:
On 21/08/2025 23:43, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I wonder how Linux implemented the floppy routines, though. At someI am not sure that linux supports any more than the obvious 5 1/4" and
point, someone had to write floppy handling code that worked on any PC,
CPU and speed.
3.5" media. Maybe 8" as well.
I looked at the relevant table in drivers/block/floppy.c, and it
appears to not support 8", just 3.5" and 5 1/4".
On 8/22/25 6:26 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/08/2025 08:30, c186282 wrote:
Mil systems tend to be specced
like ten or twelve years before you see actual product.
I worked on an anti-missile missile system in 1968 that actually ended
up working in the Falklands war in 1982...
I wonder if any of the hardware I designed was ever in it....
They will de-classify that in about another 50 years :-)
On 8/21/25 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-21 06:51, c186282 wrote:
Seems like every trick and variation has been
tried over the past century. Now if somebody
has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap V-twin
cycle engine spliced in I might be interested
in buying 🙂
An electric 2CV is planned for 2028 :-p
<https://2cev.co.uk/>
<https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/citron-2cv-electric-revival>
GAK !!!
No, never EVER !
Now an old one with a GoldWing, VMax or VTX-1800
engine spliced in :-)
On 2025-08-22 15:49, c186282 wrote:
On 8/21/25 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-21 06:51, c186282 wrote:
Seems like every trick and variation has been
tried over the past century. Now if somebody
has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap V-twin
cycle engine spliced in I might be interested
in buying 🙂
An electric 2CV is planned for 2028 :-p
<https://2cev.co.uk/>
<https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/citron-2cv-electric-revival>
GAK !!!
No, never EVER !
LOL :-D
I wonder what kind of suspension they are planning. The classic?
Personally before his mind ran away, I think Reagan was actually a
pretty smart operator, for an actor.
And Bush senior too.
On 20/08/2025 4:26 am, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:In what year was The Magna Carta signed?? 1215 Why do I recall this
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS'
troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among
the oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
fact?? 12:15 was when History Period started in Grade Six!! ;-P
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 11:22:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <1089ge2$1fvl9$8@dont-email.me>:
On 21/08/2025 23:43, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I wonder how Linux implemented the floppy routines, though. At someI am not sure that linux supports any more than the obvious 5 1/4" and
point, someone had to write floppy handling code that worked on any
PC,
CPU and speed.
3.5" media. Maybe 8" as well.
I looked at the relevant table in drivers/block/floppy.c, and it appears
to not support 8", just 3.5" and 5 1/4".
Depended on the state apparently. A few allowed widows to vote, esp
if they owned property. NOT sure if women could vote for federal
positions however.
On 2025-08-22 15:49, c186282 wrote:
On 8/21/25 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-21 06:51, c186282 wrote:
Seems like every trick and variation has been
tried over the past century. Now if somebody
has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap V-twin
cycle engine spliced in I might be interested
in buying 🙂
An electric 2CV is planned for 2028 :-p
<https://2cev.co.uk/>
<https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/citron-2cv-electric-revival>
GAK !!!
No, never EVER !
LOL :-D
I wonder what kind of suspension they are planning. The classic?
On 2025-08-22 15:49, c186282 wrote:
On 8/21/25 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-21 06:51, c186282 wrote:
Seems like every trick and variation has been tried over the
past century. Now if somebody has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap
V-twin cycle engine spliced in I might be interested in buying
🙂
An electric 2CV is planned for 2028 :-p
<https://2cev.co.uk/>
<https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/citron-2cv-electric-revival>
GAK !!!
No, never EVER !
LOL :-D
I wonder what kind of suspension they are planning. The classic?
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 11:19:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Personally before his mind ran away, I think Reagan was actually a
pretty smart operator, for an actor.
In one of his campaign speeches he said something to the effect of I don't know how to do all this stuff but I know people who do. That sold me. He
took the 'executive' part of the job seriously. Some of his picks weren't
the best but so it goes. He did a lot better than Trump's first go.
I read this morning the FBI raided Bolton's home and offices looking for secure documents that shouldn't be there. Hopefully they find a treasure trove.
And Bush senior too.
I didn't like the man or his father. Nelson Rockefeller was a popular governor from my home state and Prescott Bush torpedoed his presidential ambitions. Rockefeller had divorced his wife and remarried. The feeling in NYS was Happy, the second wife, was a better catch. He was re-elected two times after that. It offended Bush's WASP sensitivity; prior to that they
had been BFFs.
GHWB was a little to smarmy for me, let alone his 'Read my lips' bullshit.
I did vote for the idiot son in 2000, but when the choice is Fat Albert
what are you going to do? Then he attacked the wrong country over daddy issues. Or I should say that evil dwarf Cheney and his neo-con buddies. i
did not vote for him the second time. Or McSame. Or Romney.
On 22/08/2025 19:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-22 15:49, c186282 wrote:Why not? It worked. A lot better than any US truck with a solid axle and
On 8/21/25 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-21 06:51, c186282 wrote:
Seems like every trick and variation has been
tried over the past century. Now if somebody
has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap V-twin
cycle engine spliced in I might be interested
in buying 🙂
An electric 2CV is planned for 2028 :-p
<https://2cev.co.uk/>
<https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/citron-2cv-electric-revival>
GAK !!!
No, never EVER !
LOL :-D
I wonder what kind of suspension they are planning. The classic?
cart springs
On 22 Aug 2025 19:21:42 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
That turned me off history until my later years. I love looking at the
big picture and how it all comes together but elementary school
teachers favored tests they could easily grade and dates were as black
and white as it gets. They also had a very tight focus. What else was
happening in the world in 1215? What was Frederick II up to?
How about the Danes?
History is one of those subjects that's immensely fascinating, but gets taught in exactly the way that's most likely to turn students off ever
taking an interest in it - much like reading, where even if the method
for teaching *how* to read isn't faulty (which it all too often is,) the actual *reading a book* part is treated as nothing more than the
preamble to the hell that is book reports and dull-ass were-you-paying- the-barest-minimum-of-attention quizzes.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 22:18:49 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 20/08/2025 4:26 am, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 02:20:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:In what year was The Magna Carta signed?? 1215 Why do I recall this
IGNORE the King Arthur crap ... 'knights' were most often the 'SS' >>>> troopers of the old Lords.
Control and Taxes ... deliver OR ELSE.
I am amused by the hype given to the Magna Carta, an agreement among
the oligarch on how the turkey would be carved.
fact?? 12:15 was when History Period started in Grade Six!! ;-P
That turned me off history until my later years. I love looking at the big picture and how it all comes together but elementary school teachers
favored tests they could easily grade and dates were as black and white as
it gets. They also had a very tight focus. What else was happening in the world in 1215? What was Frederick II up to? How about the Danes?
On 22 Aug 2025 10:47:13 GMT, vallor wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 11:22:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <1089ge2$1fvl9$8@dont-email.me>:
On 21/08/2025 23:43, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I wonder how Linux implemented the floppy routines, though. At someI am not sure that linux supports any more than the obvious 5 1/4" and
point, someone had to write floppy handling code that worked on any
PC,
CPU and speed.
3.5" media. Maybe 8" as well.
I looked at the relevant table in drivers/block/floppy.c, and it appears
to not support 8", just 3.5" and 5 1/4".
The 50 pin cable rather than the later 34 pin might be the real killer.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 10:05:39 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Depended on the state apparently. A few allowed widows to vote, esp
if they owned property. NOT sure if women could vote for federal
positions however.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannette_Rankin
Local hero of sorts. She was elected to Congress before she could vote for herself in a national election. She also voted against the US entry into
WWI and WWII -- the only one with balls enough to do so for WWII.
She's another one liberals have to gloss over a bit. She was interested
with the vote for white women. Blacks weren't her problem.
On 22 Aug 2025 19:21:42 GMT
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
That turned me off history until my later years. I love looking at
the big picture and how it all comes together but elementary school
teachers favored tests they could easily grade and dates were as
black and white as it gets. They also had a very tight focus. What
else was happening in the world in 1215? What was Frederick II up to?
How about the Danes?
History is one of those subjects that's immensely fascinating, but gets taught in exactly the way that's most likely to turn students off ever
taking an interest in it
- much like reading, where even if the method
for teaching *how* to read isn't faulty (which it all too often is,)
the actual *reading a book* part is treated as nothing more than the
preamble to the hell that is book reports and dull-ass were-you-paying- the-barest-minimum-of-attention quizzes.
In any case, Magna Carta DID have one useful function -
it decided that The King was not the alpha/omega of
everything. Other (lords) had rights/powers too.
It was a break from the old all-powerful of-gawd
monarchy idea.
Took quite AWHILE to filter down to the peasants though.
Probably even WORSE now - Gen Z/A2 thinks that anything that didn't
happen last week isn't worth knowing.
In any case, Magna Carta DID have one useful function -
it decided that The King was not the alpha/omega of everything. Other
(lords) had rights/powers too.
It was a break from the old all-powerful of-gawd monarchy idea.
On 8/22/25 3:32 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 10:05:39 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Depended on the state apparently. A few allowed widows to vote,
esp if they owned property. NOT sure if women could vote for
federal positions however.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannette_Rankin
Local hero of sorts. She was elected to Congress before she could vote
for herself in a national election. She also voted against the US entry
into WWI and WWII -- the only one with balls enough to do so for WWII.
Would have DOOMED us all - given the NAZIs the extra time to make
working nukes.
The FUN bit is how the Dems - who STARTED all the lawfare/
retribution stuff - were screaming
OLDER US trucks ... maybe '63 and older ... they used to put the gas
tank IN the passenger compartment, just behind the seat. NOT a good
plan. Restorations generally split that open and install a nearly
indestructible plastic/rubber fuel cell inside.
On 2025-08-23, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
In any case, Magna Carta DID have one useful function -
it decided that The King was not the alpha/omega of
everything. Other (lords) had rights/powers too.
It was a break from the old all-powerful of-gawd
monarchy idea.
Took quite AWHILE to filter down to the peasants though.
Still, the old "divine right" principle is making a comeback.
Consider "too big to fail".
On 2025-08-23, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
"Standards" were NOT coveted back in the 70s and
early 80s. Makers INTENTIONALLY made their HW
incompatible so you'd be STUCK with their stuff.
IBM was doing it in the '60s, Microsoft has been doing
it ever since, and others are eagerly following suit.
HTML is becoming a proprietary language, for instance.
On 2025-08-23, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
"History", at the grade-school level - is nothing
but a handful of names/dates you're suppose to
remember so they can claim you were 'educated'. Most
EVERYBODY hated it. Now I did stay awake, one of
the few, but it was still pretty dull material
without much context. What a waste.
It was pretty dry. Too bad - now that I see what is
really there I wonder why so few people tried to make
it more interesting. Historical fiction helps, though.
Probably even WORSE now - Gen Z/A2 thinks that
anything that didn't happen last week isn't
worth knowing.
Sad but true - and promoted and exploited by megacorps
looking for more sales driven by short-sightedness.
If you don't know where it CAME from you cannot
predict/affect where it's GOING. Makes you into
a kind of slave.
The one thing that we learn from history
is that we don't learn from history.
-- Hegel, etc.
A generation which ignores history
has no past - and no future.
-- Heinlein: The Notebooks of Lazarus Long
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 01:32:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:
In any case, Magna Carta DID have one useful function -
it decided that The King was not the alpha/omega of everything. Other
(lords) had rights/powers too.
It was a break from the old all-powerful of-gawd monarchy idea.
Still you had Javes VI and I arguing for the divine right of kings
centuries later.
I'm sure the people working on the new translation had complete
intellectual freedom.
"Remember, remember, the 5th of November"
To bad Fawkes failed.
To bad Fawkes failed.
Bad luck ! 🙂
NO idea of what would have come elsewise.
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 01:44:37 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/22/25 3:32 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 10:05:39 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Depended on the state apparently. A few allowed widows to vote,
esp if they owned property. NOT sure if women could vote for
federal positions however.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannette_Rankin
Local hero of sorts. She was elected to Congress before she could vote
for herself in a national election. She also voted against the US entry
into WWI and WWII -- the only one with balls enough to do so for WWII.
Would have DOOMED us all - given the NAZIs the extra time to make
working nukes.
Yeah, better that the US developed working nukes and gave the recipe to
the Soviets and Jews.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 13:00:56 -0700, John Ames wrote:
On 22 Aug 2025 19:21:42 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
That turned me off history until my later years. I love looking at the
big picture and how it all comes together but elementary school
teachers favored tests they could easily grade and dates were as black
and white as it gets. They also had a very tight focus. What else was
happening in the world in 1215? What was Frederick II up to?
How about the Danes?
History is one of those subjects that's immensely fascinating, but gets
taught in exactly the way that's most likely to turn students off ever
taking an interest in it - much like reading, where even if the method
for teaching *how* to read isn't faulty (which it all too often is,) the
actual *reading a book* part is treated as nothing more than the
preamble to the hell that is book reports and dull-ass were-you-paying-
the-barest-minimum-of-attention quizzes.
I was a reader at a young age. My father would read the comics and my favorite books to me while I was sitting on his lap. I loved Thornton Burgess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_W._Burgess
One day nobody was available to read to me and I needed my Jerry Muskrat
fix so I read it. They thought I was faking it until I read it aloud to
prove I wasn't.
I don't know how well that skill worked out in the long run. I skipped kindergarten and started 1st grade at 4 so I was always about two years younger than my classmates. That really sucked in high school when I
wasn't old enough for driver's ed, let alone driving.
I liked the books, the reports not so much. They expanded my vocabulary.
My 7th grade English teacher didn't know what a octoroon was, let alone
where I picked it up. My mother had left Frank Yerby's 'The Foxes of
Harrow' lying around. I read it several times in fact. Set in the
Antebellum South with a lot of action including duels, exploding
steamboats, and the Civil War, what was not to like? Some of the more complex race relations more or less went over my head.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 20:45:15 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-22 15:49, c186282 wrote:
On 8/21/25 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-21 06:51, c186282 wrote:
Seems like every trick and variation has been tried over the
past century. Now if somebody has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap >>>>> V-twin cycle engine spliced in I might be interested in buying >>>>> 🙂
An electric 2CV is planned for 2028 :-p
<https://2cev.co.uk/>
<https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/citron-2cv-electric-revival>
GAK !!!
No, never EVER !
LOL :-D
I wonder what kind of suspension they are planning. The classic?
The one you could drive across a field without spilling a drop of wine?
I
don't think I've seen one outside of a museum. The closest I came was
looking at a used DS. I was young and stupid but not that stupid. I'd
worked on enough cars by then to recognized a nightmare waiting to happen.
At some point the teacher found out she could read. I don't remember how
that happened, maybe she was finally allowed in, or she grew into the
proper age.
On 23/08/2025 21:40, rbowman wrote:
Yeah, better that the US developed working nukes and gave the recipe to
the Soviets and Jews.
Jews quite capable of working it out. They designed the first one IIRC
Also Britain and France designed ones that worked too
On 8/23/25 2:02 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-23, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
In any case, Magna Carta DID have one useful function -
it decided that The King was not the alpha/omega of
everything. Other (lords) had rights/powers too.
It was a break from the old all-powerful of-gawd
monarchy idea.
Took quite AWHILE to filter down to the peasants though.
Still, the old "divine right" principle is making a comeback.
Consider "too big to fail".
DO, at least partially, agree.
But, today, not as 'religious' as in the Old Days.
Back then they really DID think their god directly
intervened/directed/empowered at every level/moment.
On 24/08/2025 13:53, Carlos E.R. wrote:
At some point the teacher found out she could read. I don't remember
how that happened, maybe she was finally allowed in, or she grew into
the proper age.
I honestly cannot remeber where I learnt to read, but I don't think it
was at school. I read everything I could find
I had to google that word. Yes, reading a lot expands your vocabulary
beyond your age. Happened to me, both in Spanish and later in English.
But now my memory is not as good as it was.
"History" IS very "relative" ... and open to very broad
interpretation.
On 8/23/25 4:36 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 01:32:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:
In any case, Magna Carta DID have one useful function -
it decided that The King was not the alpha/omega of everything.
Other (lords) had rights/powers too.
It was a break from the old all-powerful of-gawd monarchy idea.
Still you had Javes VI and I arguing for the divine right of kings
centuries later.
But not so successfully.
The DROK slowly, surely, declined after Magna Carta. A question had
been introduced into the old equation ... more and more long-term
effects.
Good/Bad/Whatever - argue as you will.
The bible says so. Of course, he sort of wrote the book.
I'm sure the people working on the new translation had complete
intellectual freedom.
"Remember, remember, the 5th of November"
To bad Fawkes failed.
Bad luck ! :-)
NO idea of what would have come elsewise.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkMTE55v2o0>
This Quirky French Car Has The BEST Ride In The World: Here's Why Nobody
Can Match It
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 14:53:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I had to google that word. Yes, reading a lot expands your vocabulary
beyond your age. Happened to me, both in Spanish and later in English.
But now my memory is not as good as it was.
Octoroon and quadroon were obscure terms in the 20th century but Yerby was writing a period novel. Mulatto lingered on. The terms were more accurate than current usage. Harris would be a quadroon, I think, although Indian ethnicity wasn't considered back then. Obama would be a mulatto.
The other reason I capitalize "The Economy" is that it's a convention in
many societies to capitalize the names of one's deities. And when you
hear the religious zeal with which people go on about the sacrifices we should be willing to make in Its Holy Name, it's hard not to see it as a religion -
the new golden calf, as it were.
On 2025-08-24, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 23/08/2025 21:40, rbowman wrote:
Yeah, better that the US developed working nukes and gave the recipe
to the Soviets and Jews.
Jews quite capable of working it out. They designed the first one IIRC
Also Britain and France designed ones that worked too
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 19:19:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
The other reason I capitalize "The Economy" is that it's a convention in
many societies to capitalize the names of one's deities. And when you
hear the religious zeal with which people go on about the sacrifices we
should be willing to make in Its Holy Name, it's hard not to see it as a
religion -
the new golden calf, as it were.
The Economy is much like The Science. Its high priests are as big a bullshitters as those in The Religion.
The economy has many theorists but few people like Piketty working
on the basis of observation. A real economy would be based on the energy available without pollution and a better distribution of real resources throughout the population. But I don't think that Economics is a science. However observations of past national economies showed that accumulation
of massive fortunes by the fortunate or the enterprising has never been
good for the nations in which it happened.
The economy has many theorists but few people like Piketty working
on the basis of observation. A real economy would be based on the energy available without pollution and a better distribution of real resources throughout the population. But I don't think that Economics is a
science.
However observations of past national economies showed that accumulation
of massive fortunes by the fortunate or the enterprising has never been
good for the nations in which it happened.
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 20:52:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The economy has many theorists but few people like Piketty working
on the basis of observation. A real economy would be based on the energy
available without pollution and a better distribution of real resources
throughout the population. But I don't think that Economics is a
science.
However observations of past national economies showed that accumulation
of massive fortunes by the fortunate or the enterprising has never been
good for the nations in which it happened.
I read 'Capital in the Twenty-First Century'. It wasn't exactly a page
turner and I had no way of verifying his data. While he makes some good points I was disappointed by his conclusion which came down to 'tax the
rich bastards!' while accepting the capitalist system.
On 2025-08-25, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
The economy has many theorists but few people like Piketty working
on the basis of observation. A real economy would be based on the energy
available without pollution and a better distribution of real resources
throughout the population. But I don't think that Economics is a science.
However observations of past national economies showed that accumulation
of massive fortunes by the fortunate or the enterprising has never been
good for the nations in which it happened.
In both science and economics there are people working hard to figure
things out, and then there are charlatans. (Whether this also applies
to religion is another topic.) I try to temper my judgement by
remembering Hanlon's Razor: "Never ascribe to malice that which
can adequately be explained by stupidity." To which a little
voice in my mind replies, "But Microsoft isn't stupid!"
(Replace Microsoft with the oligarch of your choice.)
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 19:19:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
The other reason I capitalize "The Economy" is that it's a convention in
many societies to capitalize the names of one's deities. And when you
hear the religious zeal with which people go on about the sacrifices we
should be willing to make in Its Holy Name, it's hard not to see it as a
religion -
the new golden calf, as it were.
The Economy is much like The Science. Its high priests are as big a bullshitters as those in The Religion.
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 20:52:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The economy has many theorists but few people like Piketty working
on the basis of observation. A real economy would be based on the energy
available without pollution and a better distribution of real resources
throughout the population. But I don't think that Economics is a
science.
However observations of past national economies showed that accumulation
of massive fortunes by the fortunate or the enterprising has never been
good for the nations in which it happened.
I read 'Capital in the Twenty-First Century'. It wasn't exactly a page
turner and I had no way of verifying his data. While he makes some good points I was disappointed by his conclusion which came down to 'tax the
rich bastards!' while accepting the capitalist system.
All I can say is you had to be there. He spends time on groups that
consisted of three members and a post office box that no one ever heard of and misses the big picture. For that matter James Mason was obscure in his day and only resurfaced linked to the Atomwaffen Division.
It isn't often you get to see history written from document research
versus the history you saw on the ground. Of course personal history is highly subjective too.
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 04:07:06 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 8/23/25 4:36 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2025 01:32:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:
In any case, Magna Carta DID have one useful function -
it decided that The King was not the alpha/omega of everything.
Other (lords) had rights/powers too.
It was a break from the old all-powerful of-gawd monarchy idea.
Still you had Javes VI and I arguing for the divine right of kings
centuries later.
But not so successfully.
The DROK slowly, surely, declined after Magna Carta. A question had
been introduced into the old equation ... more and more long-term
effects.
Good/Bad/Whatever - argue as you will.
The bible says so. Of course, he sort of wrote the book.
I'm sure the people working on the new translation had complete
intellectual freedom.
"Remember, remember, the 5th of November"
To bad Fawkes failed.
Bad luck ! :-)
NO idea of what would have come elsewise.
The Catholics wouldn't have been banned for a few centuries. I don't know
if it still is the case but a few years back I read there were more church attending Catholics in the UK than COE. Seems some of the former COE parishoners didn't care for the antics of the Anglicans and their American cousins and there wasn't much doctrinal difference in the first place.
The economy has many theorists but few people like Piketty working
on the basis of observation.
A real economy would be based on the energy available without
pollution and a better distribution of real resources throughout the population.
But I don't think that Economics is a science.
However observations of past national economies showed that
accumulation of massive fortunes by the fortunate or the enterprising
has never been good for the nations in which it happened.
In both science and economics there are people working hard to figure
things out, and then there are charlatans. (Whether this also applies
to religion is another topic.) I try to temper my judgement by
remembering Hanlon's Razor: "Never ascribe to malice that which
can adequately be explained by stupidity." To which a little
voice in my mind replies, "But Microsoft isn't stupid!"
(Replace Microsoft with the oligarch of your choice.)
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 20:52:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The economy has many theorists but few people like Piketty working
on the basis of observation. A real economy would be based on the energy
available without pollution and a better distribution of real resources
throughout the population. But I don't think that Economics is a
science.
However observations of past national economies showed that accumulation
of massive fortunes by the fortunate or the enterprising has never been
good for the nations in which it happened.
I read 'Capital in the Twenty-First Century'. It wasn't exactly a page
turner and I had no way of verifying his data. While he makes some good points I was disappointed by his conclusion which came down to 'tax the
rich bastards!' while accepting the capitalist system.
"The Economy" is FAR too big, complex and interwoven
to make any good predictions ... it's closer to chaos
theory territory.
But that doesn't keep the bullshitters quiet.
The commies used to go into 3rd-world countries and claim
The Rich had basements full of gold. Just TAKE it and you
can all live well forever !
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 19:19:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
The other reason I capitalize "The Economy" is that it's a
convention in many societies to capitalize the names of one's
deities. And when you hear the religious zeal with which people
go on about the sacrifices we should be willing to make in Its
Holy Name, it's hard not to see it as a religion - the new golden
calf, as it were.
The Economy is much like The Science. Its high priests are as big
a bullshitters as those in The Religion.
There is no "the Science". There are multiple sciences, each
valuable for what we learn from the investigations, observations and experiments they undertake. Personally I like most the stuff we learn
from science but especially in archeology, astronomy, and geology.
Personally the other day I was fascinated by the idea of the
Murchinson Meteor, the oldest rock found on Planet Earth so far at
7.5 Billion years old. A rock older than our earth. It landed in
1969 in Australia.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murchison_meteorite>
Stars that seem to be older than the theory of a Big Bang seem to
allow. Massive black holes early in the evolution of the present
universe based only on hydrogen and helium.
On 25/08/2025 04:52, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The economy has many theorists but few people like Piketty working on
the basis of observation.
My school friend was the son of the economic adviser to the UK
government.
He was appalled at te economics course at Cambridge 'They are teaching
this stuff as fact, its not even theory - its rough rules of thumb that sometimes fit particyular cases' .
Back in (??) 2007, I attended a talk by Prof Brian Cox and, at the end
of the lecturer, there was a "Q & A" session where someone asked a
question along the lines of "What was there before The Big Bang" and
Prof Cox answered that one of the current theories was that Two other Universes, in other dimensions/planes, had banged together and that some
of the Matter from each of these Universes had bled through into our Dimension/Universe.
The capitalist system is a good system in the hands of ethicalpeople
but when the need for profit outpaces social responsibility then we need regulation of many aspects of capitalism. Without it we have rampant pollution and ooisonous emmissions into the atmosphere, in the water and soil.
On 25/08/2025 06:41, c186282 wrote:
The commies used to go into 3rd-world countries and claim
The Rich had basements full of gold. Just TAKE it and you can all
live well forever !
"Come the Revolution and the End of Apartheid, you will *all* own a
Mercedes and have a swimming pool"
Cuban communist agitator in Soweto.
On 25/08/2025 04:52, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
But I don't think that Economics is a science.
It isn't. It's more engineering with far far 'softer' components. And is
too complicated to model accurately
On 25/08/2025 06:31, c186282 wrote:
"The Economy" is FAR too big, complex and interwoven
to make any good predictions ... it's closer to chaos
theory territory.
But that doesn't keep the bullshitters quiet.
+1. I ran my companies the only way I knew how. Like big electronic
circuits with multiple feedback paths between the major components - the people. I designed the systems, the people ran them. I tried not to run
the components beyond breaking point, too.
I didn't care how the individual cells worked, I only cared that they produced the correct output.
I judged my employees solely on ability to add value. I ran everything
on strict cost benefit analysis. No politics, office or societal.
It worked,
On 25/08/2025 1:52 pm, Bobbie Sellers wrote:> On 8/24/25 18:50, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 19:19:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
The other reason I capitalize "The Economy" is that it's a
convention in many societies to capitalize the names of one's
deities. And when you hear the religious zeal with which people
go on about the sacrifices we should be willing to make in Its
Holy Name, it's hard not to see it as a religion - the new golden
calf, as it were.
The Economy is much like The Science. Its high priests are as big
a bullshitters as those in The Religion.
There is no "the Science". There are multiple sciences, each
valuable for what we learn from the investigations, observations and
experiments they undertake. Personally I like most the stuff we learn
from science but especially in archeology, astronomy, and geology.
Personally the other day I was fascinated by the idea of the
Murchinson Meteor, the oldest rock found on Planet Earth so far at
7.5 Billion years old. A rock older than our earth. It landed in
1969 in Australia. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murchison_meteorite>
Stars that seem to be older than the theory of a Big Bang seem to
allow. Massive black holes early in the evolution of the present
universe based only on hydrogen and helium.
Back in (??) 2007, I attended a talk by Prof Brian Cox and, at the end
of the lecturer, there was a "Q & A" session where someone asked a
question along the lines of "What was there before The Big Bang" and
Prof Cox answered that one of the current theories was that Two other Universes, in other dimensions/planes, had banged together and that some
of the Matter from each of these Universes had bled through into our Dimension/Universe.
Maybe that's where these Old Stars came from. ;-P
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 22:27:36 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The capitalist system is a good system in the hands of ethicalpeople
but when the need for profit outpaces social responsibility then we need
regulation of many aspects of capitalism. Without it we have rampant
pollution and ooisonous emmissions into the atmosphere, in the water and
soil.
Eternal growth and 'progress' are hard wired into capitalism.
On 8/25/25 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/08/2025 06:31, c186282 wrote:
"The Economy" is FAR too big, complex and interwoven
to make any good predictions ... it's closer to chaos
theory territory.
But that doesn't keep the bullshitters quiet.
+1. I ran my companies the only way I knew how. Like big electronic
circuits with multiple feedback paths between the major components -
the people. I designed the systems, the people ran them. I tried not
to run the components beyond breaking point, too.
I didn't care how the individual cells worked, I only cared that they
produced the correct output.
I judged my employees solely on ability to add value. I ran everything
on strict cost benefit analysis. No politics, office or societal.
It worked,
I'm sure it did, Mr. Scrooge :-)
More likey the universe is a little older/larger than
we initially thought it was. We do projections, but
some of the benchmarks are now suspected of being a
little unreliable.
On 26/08/2025 08:27, c186282 wrote:
On 8/25/25 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:It is extremely difficult to grow a business in the UK
On 25/08/2025 06:31, c186282 wrote:
"The Economy" is FAR too big, complex and interwoven
to make any good predictions ... it's closer to chaos
theory territory.
But that doesn't keep the bullshitters quiet.
+1. I ran my companies the only way I knew how. Like big electronic
circuits with multiple feedback paths between the major components -
the people. I designed the systems, the people ran them. I tried not
to run the components beyond breaking point, too.
I didn't care how the individual cells worked, I only cared that they
produced the correct output.
I judged my employees solely on ability to add value. I ran
everything on strict cost benefit analysis. No politics, office or
societal.
It worked,
I'm sure it did, Mr. Scrooge :-)
At least my employees had a job and got paid.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 13:15:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
The mission system in Spanish America was presented as improving the
natives' lot. Whether it did or not is a good question.
On 26/08/2025 08:53, c186282 wrote:
More likey the universe is a little older/larger than
we initially thought it was. We do projections, but
some of the benchmarks are now suspected of being a
little unreliable.
Astrophysics is a massive edifice based on some fairly shaky
assumptions. Star distance is held to be a function of relative
velocity. Star age is held to be a function of distance and or luminosity.
On 8/26/25 5:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/08/2025 08:27, c186282 wrote:
On 8/25/25 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:It is extremely difficult to grow a business in the UK
On 25/08/2025 06:31, c186282 wrote:
"The Economy" is FAR too big, complex and interwoven
to make any good predictions ... it's closer to chaos
theory territory.
But that doesn't keep the bullshitters quiet.
+1. I ran my companies the only way I knew how. Like big electronic
circuits with multiple feedback paths between the major components -
the people. I designed the systems, the people ran them. I tried not
to run the components beyond breaking point, too.
I didn't care how the individual cells worked, I only cared that
they produced the correct output.
I judged my employees solely on ability to add value. I ran
everything on strict cost benefit analysis. No politics, office or
societal.
It worked,
I'm sure it did, Mr. Scrooge :-)
At least my employees had a job and got paid.
Interesting ... so there's still slave labor
in the UK ? :-)
Anyway, given the whole 'socialist' thing I can seeLarge companies lobby governments to impose regulations which large
WHY it would be very difficult to start/run a smaller
biz in the UK. The State mostly just wants your MONEY,
not your success.
On 20/08/2025 5:02 am, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 13:15:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
The mission system in Spanish America was presented as improving the
natives' lot. Whether it did or not is a good question.
Same Same can be asked of The British and the Australian Aborigine ...
or The British and the Native Indian .... or The British and The Chinese.
Hmm!! Seems to be a constant factor here!! ;-P
On 17/08/2025 07:35, c186282 wrote:
The Queen Mum, making sure the kids were trained in using automatic
weapons in case the NAZIs showed up - THAT'S the kind of 'tough
chik' you want.
Hmm. They all are, in fact. Charles served in the forces,
so did Harry, but sadly he is as thick as his mum.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:30:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Parents were unhappy with their kids getting low grades, so they changed
the education system to give them all full Marx...
When I briefly taught the classes used homogeneous groups, A, B, C, D. The kids, their parents, and everyone in the system understood D was Dumb.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection
against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to throw
all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
On 18/08/2025 10:39 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:When someone is sworn in as President of The U.S. of A. aren't they
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection
against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to throw
all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
required to swear on The Bible?? Or is that a copy of The Constitution??
On 20/08/2025 5:02 am, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 13:15:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
The mission system in Spanish America was presented as improving the
natives' lot. Whether it did or not is a good question.
Same Same can be asked of The British and the Australian Aborigine ...
or The British and the Native Indian .... or The British and The Chinese.
Hmm!! Seems to be a constant factor here!! ;-P
On 8/26/25 5:39 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/08/2025 08:53, c186282 wrote:
More likey the universe is a little older/larger than
we initially thought it was. We do projections, but
some of the benchmarks are now suspected of being a
little unreliable.
Astrophysics is a massive edifice based on some fairly shaky
assumptions. Star distance is held to be a function of relative
velocity. Star age is held to be a function of distance and or
luminosity.
Recently I heard that cephid variables - THE yardstick -
may not be as reliable as imagined.
In any case ... figure 20 billion instead of 13.6 and
those 'impossible galaxies' aren't impossible anymore.
Doesn't require entire galaxies to have somehow
survived from before The Bang.
A new scope - a bit bigger and deeper into the IR -
might find even MORE way out there. Alas as the
wavelength increases resolution becomes, well,
fuzzier. Far also means small angle. Interferometry
can help, but now we're talking some LARGE structure
in space subject to every mini gravity variance and
uneven heating.
We MAY just not be able to see The Edge anymore.
On 17/08/2025 8:01 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 07:35, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
The Queen Mum, making sure the kids were trained in using automatic
weapons in case the NAZIs showed up - THAT'S the kind of 'tough
chik' you want.
Hmm. They all are, in fact. Charles served in the forces,
Did HRH ever make it to a Two-Way Rifle Range?? You know the ones where
the other guys are shooting back.
Oh, hang on, he was a Pilot, wasn't he!
so did Harry, but sadly he is as thick as his mum.Same question might apply.
We never could have seen the edge because we evolved orActually, we can see the edge, because the Universe is [allegedly] so
were created too late for that.
The Edge would be the Big Bang, if it really happened but that
is too far away in time and space and hidden behind the period
when the Universe was not transmitting light at all. Aso when the
energy and matter expanded into this spece it did so along
vectors which seem to have been pre-existing.
On 25/08/2025 20:08, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 22:27:36 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The capitalist system is a good system in the hands of ethicalpeople
but when the need for profit outpaces social responsibility then we
need regulation of many aspects of capitalism. Without it we have
rampant pollution and ooisonous emmissions into the atmosphere, in the
water and soil.
Eternal growth and 'progress' are hard wired into capitalism.
No, they are wired into post war consumerism. And 'Libral' sociology.
On 18/08/2025 10:39 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:When someone is sworn in as President of The U.S. of A. aren't they
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection
against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to
throw all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
required to swear on The Bible?? Or is that a copy of The Constitution??
On 20/08/2025 5:02 am, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 13:15:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the Spanish land, they did because it was the law, which protected
the natives somewhat. Also I read they did not work well. Also because
many got ill and died, so not enough natives.
The mission system in Spanish America was presented as improving the
natives' lot. Whether it did or not is a good question.
Same Same can be asked of The British and the Australian Aborigine ...
or The British and the Native Indian .... or The British and The
Chinese.
Hmm!! Seems to be a constant factor here!! ;-P
But the Puritans and the Catholic did agree on one thing and that
was that Chrisianity must be brought to the people of foreign lands
whether they wanted it or not.
On 16/08/2025 9:46 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:30:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Parents were unhappy with their kids getting low grades, so they
changed the education system to give them all full Marx...
When I briefly taught the classes used homogeneous groups, A, B, C, D.
The kids, their parents, and everyone in the system understood D was
Dumb.
My High School had A, B, C, D, E, and F results. F was Fail!!
Yep. Unlike the Americans, we didnt kill all the Indians, Africans, Aboriginal Australians etc etc
Oh Harry was definitely in a hot war. He rather stupidly let it be known
how many Islamic hostiles he had bagged with his 50 cal.
On 17/08/2025 8:01 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 07:35, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
The Queen Mum, making sure the kids were trained in using automatic
weapons in case the NAZIs showed up - THAT'S the kind of 'tough chik'
you want.
Hmm. They all are, in fact. Charles served in the forces,
Did HRH ever make it to a Two-Way Rifle Range?? You know the ones where
the other guys are shooting back.
Oh, hang on, he was a Pilot, wasn't he!
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:32:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/08/2025 20:08, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 22:27:36 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The capitalist system is a good system in the hands of ethicalpeople
but when the need for profit outpaces social responsibility then we
need regulation of many aspects of capitalism. Without it we have
rampant pollution and ooisonous emmissions into the atmosphere, in the >>>> water and soil.
Eternal growth and 'progress' are hard wired into capitalism.
No, they are wired into post war consumerism. And 'Libral' sociology.
Most of that goes back to the Enlightenment. Condorcet wrote the book and
got honorable mention by Malthus. Every time a new rabbit is pulled out of the hat it's proclaimed 'See! Mathus was wrong!. I don't think there are
many more bunnies in the bottom of the had.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 13:11:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yep. Unlike the Americans, we didnt kill all the Indians, Africans,
Aboriginal Australians etc etc
'All' being the critical word. iirc the Zulus got their licks in.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:34:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Oh Harry was definitely in a hot war. He rather stupidly let it be known
how many Islamic hostiles he had bagged with his 50 cal.
Is he the one with a SS uniform in the closet?
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 13:11:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yep. Unlike the Americans, we didnt kill all the Indians, Africans,
Aboriginal Australians etc etc
'All' being the critical word. iirc the Zulus got their licks in.
On 26/08/2025 21:11, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:32:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Ah yes. Cornucopianism
On 25/08/2025 20:08, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 22:27:36 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The capitalist system is a good system in the hands of ethicalpeople
but when the need for profit outpaces social responsibility then we
need regulation of many aspects of capitalism. Without it we have
rampant pollution and ooisonous emmissions into the atmosphere, in
the water and soil.
Eternal growth and 'progress' are hard wired into capitalism.
No, they are wired into post war consumerism. And 'Libral' sociology.
Most of that goes back to the Enlightenment. Condorcet wrote the book
and got honorable mention by Malthus. Every time a new rabbit is pulled
out of the hat it's proclaimed 'See! Mathus was wrong!. I don't think
there are many more bunnies in the bottom of the had.
Somehow, somewhere, there is always MoreToCome™
On 26/08/2025 21:13, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:50:42 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 10:39 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:When someone is sworn in as President of The U.S. of A. aren't they
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection
against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to
throw all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
required to swear on The Bible?? Or is that a copy of The
Constitution??
Not as President but Tulsi Gabbard used the Bhagavad Gita. Given the
choice of the two I'd take the Gita.
Would I be allowed Aleister Crowley's 'Book of Lies' ?
The USA did not kill all the Native Americans though at somepoints
that was clearly the intention. Many were left alive and are organizing politically.
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is
as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Poor sod. He would have been far happier growing up in a council estate
and snorting crack.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is
as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
Poor sod. He would have been far happier growing up in a council estate
and snorting crack.
That might explain his taste in gold diggers. At least she can almost
pass and doesn't have a thing for lip plates.As I said I don't follow the royals but I gather the family doesn't really want them back.
So it goes when you have a long tradition of inbreeding.
On 26/08/2025 21:13, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:50:42 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 10:39 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:When someone is sworn in as President of The U.S. of A. aren't they
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection
against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to
throw all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
required to swear on The Bible?? Or is that a copy of The Constitution??
Not as President but Tulsi Gabbard used the Bhagavad Gita. Given the
choice of the two I'd take the Gita.
Would I be allowed Aleister Crowley's 'Book of Lies' ?
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is
as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
Poor sod. He would have been far happier growing up in a council estate
and snorting crack.
That might explain his taste in gold diggers. At least she can almost
pass and doesn't have a thing for lip plates.As I said I don't follow the royals but I gather the family doesn't really want them back.
So it goes when you have a long tradition of inbreeding.
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is
as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
QE2 once compared her to a house plant ...
Poor sod. He would have been far happier growing up in a council estate
and snorting crack.
That might explain his taste in gold diggers. At least she can almost
pass and doesn't have a thing for lip plates.As I said I don't follow the
royals but I gather the family doesn't really want them back.
So it goes when you have a long tradition of inbreeding.
Hey, keeps the 'divine right/power' concentrated
in the blood of course !
Now it you want SERIOUS inbreeding, try the Egyptians.
On 8/26/25 4:55 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/08/2025 21:13, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:50:42 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 10:39 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:When someone is sworn in as President of The U.S. of A. aren't they
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection >>>>>> against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to
throw all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
required to swear on The Bible?? Or is that a copy of The
Constitution??
Not as President but Tulsi Gabbard used the Bhagavad Gita. Given the
choice of the two I'd take the Gita.
Would I be allowed Aleister Crowley's 'Book of Lies' ?
Sure !
Bring a coven of nekked witches to chant the
words along with you.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:34:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Oh Harry was definitely in a hot war. He rather stupidly let it be known
how many Islamic hostiles he had bagged with his 50 cal.
Is he the one with a SS uniform in the closet?
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is
as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
QE2 once compared her to a house plant ...
On 26/08/2025 14:14, Daniel70 wrote:
On 17/08/2025 8:01 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 07:35, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
The Queen Mum, making sure the kids were trained in using automatic
weapons in case the NAZIs showed up - THAT'S the kind of 'tough
chik' you want.
Hmm. They all are, in fact. Charles served in the forces,
Did HRH ever make it to a Two-Way Rifle Range?? You know the ones where
the other guys are shooting back.
Oh, hang on, he was a Pilot, wasn't he!
Chopper pilot. I think he also served as a rescue chopper pilot
so did Harry, but sadly he is as thick as his mum.Same question might apply.
Oh Harry was definitely in a hot war. He rather stupidly let it be known
how many Islamic hostiles he had bagged with his 50 cal.
He was hauled off te front lone after his presence became known - too
much a risk for his fellow squaddies to be around the guy with a target
on his back
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:37:41 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 16/08/2025 9:46 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:30:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Parents were unhappy with their kids getting low grades, so they
changed the education system to give them all full Marx...
When I briefly taught the classes used homogeneous groups, A, B, C, D.
The kids, their parents, and everyone in the system understood D was
Dumb.
My High School had A, B, C, D, E, and F results. F was Fail!!
I don't think we had a E. Go directly to F. However I wasn't talking about grades. Even at the tail end of the Baby Boom classes were large. In the school where I taught, there were 4 separate groups and they were sorted
by potential.
The D kids would probably be high school dropouts. C would take shop or business courses and graduate. A were college bound. B was a crap shoot, maybe community college.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:50:42 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/08/2025 10:39 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:When someone is sworn in as President of The U.S. of A. aren't they
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection
against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to
throw all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
required to swear on The Bible?? Or is that a copy of The Constitution??
Not as President but Tulsi Gabbard used the Bhagavad Gita. Given the
choice of the two I'd take the Gita.
On 27/08/2025 6:01 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is >>>> as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
QE2 once compared her to a house plant ...
but, maybe, Diana might have blossomed (to keep the plant theme going)
into a very nice Queen when/if she had grown up.
On 27/08/2025 09:01, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry
is as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
QE2 once compared her to a house plant ...
Poor sod. He would have been far happier growing up in a council
estate and snorting crack.
That might explain his taste in gold diggers. At least she can almost
pass and doesn't have a thing for lip plates.As I said I don't follow
the royals but I gather the family doesn't really want them back.
So it goes when you have a long tradition of inbreeding.
Hey, keeps the 'divine right/power' concentrated in the blood of
course !
Now it you want SERIOUS inbreeding, try the Egyptians.
I thought it was Appalachia...?
In my case, in Grade Six everyone did an introduction type course into
French and Latin.
If, in the end of year Exams, you did alright in those two courses, you continued in that "Languages" stream.
Otherwise you went the "Mathematics/Science" stream. Pick me!!
On 27/08/2025 6:13 am, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:50:42 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:So a Hindu "Bible" sort of, more or less! ;-P
On 18/08/2025 10:39 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:When someone is sworn in as President of The U.S. of A. aren't they
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection
against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to
throw all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
required to swear on The Bible?? Or is that a copy of The
Constitution??
Not as President but Tulsi Gabbard used the Bhagavad Gita. Given the
choice of the two I'd take the Gita.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 23:47:14 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 6:13 am, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:50:42 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:So a Hindu "Bible" sort of, more or less! ;-P
On 18/08/2025 10:39 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:When someone is sworn in as President of The U.S. of A. aren't they
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection >>>>>> against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to
throw all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
required to swear on The Bible?? Or is that a copy of The
Constitution??
Not as President but Tulsi Gabbard used the Bhagavad Gita. Given the
choice of the two I'd take the Gita.
Yeah, more or less. It gets into metaphysics but starts with Arjuna, a prince, and Krishna acting as his charioteer on a battlefield. Arjuna is a Kshatriya, the warrior and administrator caste, but is waffling since some
of his friends and relatives are on the other side. Krishna tells he is a warrior, and his duty (dharma) is to go to war. Quit whining and get to
it.
It's usually dated after the rise of Buddhism. Buddha was also a Kshatriya
as were as many of his followers and they went off to gaze at their navels rather than performing the role of their caste.
Most of the politicians swearing on a bible think their only duty is enriching themselves. They definitely aren't Kshatriya.
On 27/08/2025 05:29, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is
as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
Poor sod. He would have been far happier growing up in a council estate
and snorting crack.
That might explain his taste in gold diggers. At least she can almost
pass and doesn't have a thing for lip plates.As I said I don't follow the
royals but I gather the family doesn't really want them back.
So it goes when you have a long tradition of inbreeding.
Well Diana was fairly far from the Royals...she was a Spencer.
But then so was Camilla.Far from the Royals
And Kate Middleton is anything but. Solid middle class with a sane head
on her shoulders - the *real* 'peoples princess'...
On 27/08/2025 09:01, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is >>>> as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
QE2 once compared her to a house plant ...
Poor sod. He would have been far happier growing up in a council estate >>>> and snorting crack.
That might explain his taste in gold diggers. At least she can almost
pass and doesn't have a thing for lip plates.As I said I don't follow
the
royals but I gather the family doesn't really want them back.
So it goes when you have a long tradition of inbreeding.
Hey, keeps the 'divine right/power' concentrated
in the blood of course !
Now it you want SERIOUS inbreeding, try the Egyptians.
I thought it was Appalachia...?
That gave rise to multiple versions of Buddhism.,
On 27/08/2025 4:34 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/08/2025 14:14, Daniel70 wrote:
On 17/08/2025 8:01 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 07:35, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
The Queen Mum, making sure the kids were trained in using automatic
weapons in case the NAZIs showed up - THAT'S the kind of 'tough
chik' you want.
Hmm. They all are, in fact. Charles served in the forces,
Did HRH ever make it to a Two-Way Rifle Range?? You know the ones where
the other guys are shooting back.
Oh, hang on, he was a Pilot, wasn't he!
Chopper pilot. I think he also served as a rescue chopper pilot
Ah. O.K.
On 27/08/2025 6:01 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is >>>> as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
QE2 once compared her to a house plant ...
but, maybe, Diana might have blossomed (to keep the plant theme going)
into a very nice Queen when/if she had grown up.
On 27/08/2025 6:19 am, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:37:41 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:In my case, in Grade Six everyone did an introduction type course into
On 16/08/2025 9:46 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:30:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Parents were unhappy with their kids getting low grades, so they
changed the education system to give them all full Marx...
When I briefly taught the classes used homogeneous groups, A, B, C, D. >>>> The kids, their parents, and everyone in the system understood D was
Dumb.
My High School had A, B, C, D, E, and F results. F was Fail!!
I don't think we had a E. Go directly to F. However I wasn't talking
about
grades. Even at the tail end of the Baby Boom classes were large. In the
school where I taught, there were 4 separate groups and they were sorted
by potential.
The D kids would probably be high school dropouts. C would take shop or
business courses and graduate. A were college bound. B was a crap shoot,
maybe community college.
French and Latin.
If, in the end of year Exams, you did alright in those two courses, you continued in that "Languages" stream.
Otherwise you went the "Mathematics/Science" stream. Pick me!!
On 27/08/2025 6:13 am, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:50:42 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:So a Hindu "Bible" sort of, more or less! ;-P
On 18/08/2025 10:39 am, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:36:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:When someone is sworn in as President of The U.S. of A. aren't they
It was the religious wars and the Anglican Church been forced on
everyone in the Colonies which lead to our Constitution protection
against the Establishment of Religion.
Whatever happened to that? Seems the current crowd in power want to
throw all that out ... in favour of their own religion, of course.
required to swear on The Bible?? Or is that a copy of The Constitution??
Not as President but Tulsi Gabbard used the Bhagavad Gita. Given the
choice of the two I'd take the Gita.
On 27/08/2025 14:35, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 6:01 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is >>>>> as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
QE2 once compared her to a house plant ...
but, maybe, Diana might have blossomed (to keep the plant theme going)
into a very nice Queen when/if she had grown up.
She wouldn't have grown up. Harry has married his mum....
Wonder why so many are just HOMELY ?
REALLY should deliberately interbreed with
like Thai and African royals ....
I don't know if the term 'Scots-Irish' exists outside of the US but they
were Scots pure and simple.
On 8/27/25 9:35 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 6:01 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but Harry is >>>>> as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
QE2 once compared her to a house plant ...
but, maybe, Diana might have blossomed (to keep the plant theme going)
into a very nice Queen when/if she had grown up.
Ummmmmmm ... probably not. She really WAS kinda thick.
Doesn't mean she was evil, just Not Very Smart.
Diana was basically some teen acid-head who was
informed that it'd been arranged to marry Chuckie.
She was good looking, press important, but NOT
really 'royal material'. The main idea was to put
Chuckie off Cammie ... inconvenient ! Bad optics !
Politics is mostly Image/Perception, little to do
with 'reality' - just the "right impression".
Read yer Machiavelli ... nothing's changed.
Gossip gave way to Press gave way to Net - but
political necessity remains constant.
On 8/27/25 11:38 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/2025 14:35, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 6:01 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:01:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
None of the Royals are especially gifted with grey cells, but
Harry is
as thick as his mum, which is pushing the boat out.
Diana? I thought she was okay but I don't keep track of the royalty.
QE2 once compared her to a house plant ...
but, maybe, Diana might have blossomed (to keep the plant theme
going) into a very nice Queen when/if she had grown up.
She wouldn't have grown up. Harry has married his mum....
Ummmmm ... kind of .........
Harry is a MESS on many levels.
He can blame PTSD or whatever, but I think
it's All Harry.
On 28/08/2025 04:29, c186282 wrote:
Wonder why so many are just HOMELY ?
REALLY should deliberately interbreed with
like Thai and African royals ....
Lol.
I think in the UK case Indian is more likely
On 8/28/25 5:28 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 04:29, c186282 wrote:
Wonder why so many are just HOMELY ?
REALLY should deliberately interbreed with
like Thai and African royals ....
Lol.
I think in the UK case Indian is more likely
Agreed, "more likely" ... but maybe Not Enough
to fix centuries of inbreeding.
Heh heh ... grades 1-5 I was deemed an idiot. If I did anything good
the teachers would accuse me of cheating. Very much remember.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 02:59:48 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Heh heh ... grades 1-5 I was deemed an idiot. If I did anything good
the teachers would accuse me of cheating. Very much remember.
I was a sleeper in high school. Then came the SATs, the National Merit Scholarship exam, the NYS Regents scholarship exam and all of a sudden I
was being inducted into the National Honor Society. True to form, I had a pint in my locker and showed up half in the bag.
There was a prize for the highest biology score and I snagged that. Bad
move. A girl I thought was pretty hot who went on to become a surgeon had
her heart set on it.
Politics is mostly Image/Perception, little to do
with 'reality' - just the "right impression".
Read yer Machiavelli ... nothing's changed.
Gossip gave way to Press gave way to Net - but
political necessity remains constant.
More people! More consumers! More profit!
I tend to agree with Pentti Linkola.
For a long time after The World wasn't INTERESTED in
this ... demanded paper-bearing dweeb "specialists"
because it "looked prestigious", or nothing. Their
loss, no wonder so much went to SHIT ........
"Wide" makes it a lot easier to detect BULLSHIT
and FRAUD. Not all employers WANT that ... pref
to go after Illusions instead and where it's easy
to threaten anybody who Knows Better.
Horrible. Dangerous. Destructive.
My idols ... the 50s/60s NASA people - the kind who
can turn notebooks and duct tape into lifesaving
solutions on short notice. THAT'S the sweet spot,
where you Get It Done.
On 2025-08-28, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
For a long time after The World wasn't INTERESTED in
this ... demanded paper-bearing dweeb "specialists"
because it "looked prestigious", or nothing. Their
loss, no wonder so much went to SHIT ........
"Wide" makes it a lot easier to detect BULLSHIT
and FRAUD. Not all employers WANT that ... pref
to go after Illusions instead and where it's easy
to threaten anybody who Knows Better.
Horrible. Dangerous. Destructive.
My idols ... the 50s/60s NASA people - the kind who
can turn notebooks and duct tape into lifesaving
solutions on short notice. THAT'S the sweet spot,
where you Get It Done.
+1
The saddest epiphany of my life was when I realized
that the goal in modern society isn't Getting It Done
but playing the political games. I've been avoiding
success ever since, and done a pretty good job of it.
Don't make yourself indispensible - that scares the hell
out of managers. But it works out well if you happen to
be handy to have around, especially when the excrement
strikes the rotating ventilation device.
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 10:42:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:01, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
Now it you want SERIOUS inbreeding, try the Egyptians.
I thought it was Appalachia...?
They learned it in the old country.
Rumour has it that it was inbreeding that made Charles II of Spain
a lantern-jawed idiot whose balls fell off.
["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.]
Politics is mostly Image/Perception, little to do
with 'reality' - just the "right impression".
Read yer Machiavelli ... nothing's changed.
Gossip gave way to Press gave way to Net - but
political necessity remains constant.
Politicians may come and go, but greed goes on forever.
-- Nicholas van Rijn (a charater in Poul Anderson stories)
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 10:42:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:01, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
Now it you want SERIOUS inbreeding, try the Egyptians.
I thought it was Appalachia...?
They learned it in the old country.
Rumour has it that it was inbreeding that made Charles II of Spain
a lantern-jawed idiot whose balls fell off.
Frankly, a little inbreeding doesn't hurt much. Only
gets bad over a few generations. THEN you start to
get the "Deliverance" kind of folks. (cue banjos)
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 23:43:20 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
In my case, in Grade Six everyone did an introduction type course into
French and Latin.
If, in the end of year Exams, you did alright in those two courses, you
continued in that "Languages" stream.
Otherwise you went the "Mathematics/Science" stream. Pick me!!
British Grade 6?
I don't know about today but when I was a student
languages other than English didn't happen until the Grade 10 equivalent. There wasn't a Middle or Jr. High School only K-8 and then off to High
School (Grade 10) Kindergarten wasn't a 'grade'.
On 29/08/2025 4:50 pm, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:"lantern-jawed"??
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 10:42:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:01, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
Now it you want SERIOUS inbreeding, try the Egyptians.
I thought it was Appalachia...?
They learned it in the old country.
Rumour has it that it was inbreeding that made Charles II of Spain
a lantern-jawed idiot whose balls fell off.
On 28/08/2025 1:42 pm, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
Frankly, a little inbreeding doesn't hurt much. Only
gets bad over a few generations. THEN you start to
get the "Deliverance" kind of folks. (cue banjos)
Wellllll, if you believe The Bible, WE all came from just Adam and Eve
and their son Cain (or was it Able that killed Cain??)!!
Inbreeding anyone!
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 02:59:48 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Heh heh ... grades 1-5 I was deemed an idiot. If I did anything good
the teachers would accuse me of cheating. Very much remember.
I was a sleeper in high school. Then came the SATs, the National Merit Scholarship exam, the NYS Regents scholarship exam and all of a sudden I
was being inducted into the National Honor Society. True to form, I had a pint in my locker and showed up half in the bag.
There was a prize for the highest biology score and I snagged that. Bad
move. A girl I thought was pretty hot who went on to become a surgeon had
her heart set on it.
On 28/08/2025 8:04 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 23:43:20 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
In my case, in Grade Six everyone did an introduction type course into
French and Latin.
If, in the end of year Exams, you did alright in those two courses, you
continued in that "Languages" stream.
Otherwise you went the "Mathematics/Science" stream. Pick me!!
British Grade 6?
Australian Grade 6.
I don't know about today but when I was a studentAustralia
languages other than English didn't happen until the Grade 10 equivalent.
There wasn't a Middle or Jr. High School only K-8 and then off to High
School (Grade 10) Kindergarten wasn't a 'grade'.
Primary Grades 1 through 6. Grade 0/Prep/Bubs at some schools >Secondary Grades 7 through 12 (or Forms 1 through 6) although Grade 10 >is known as Leaving ... because by that time kids should be 15y.o. or
more so could legally leave school.
Tertiary University/Trade School.
--
Daniel70
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 10:42:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:01, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
Now it you want SERIOUS inbreeding, try the Egyptians.
I thought it was Appalachia...?
They learned it in the old country.
Rumour has it that it was inbreeding that made Charles II of Spain
a lantern-jawed idiot whose balls fell off.
On 29/08/2025 12:33, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:50 pm, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:"lantern-jawed"??
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 10:42:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/2025 09:01, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 12:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
Now it you want SERIOUS inbreeding, try the Egyptians.
I thought it was Appalachia...?
They learned it in the old country.
Rumour has it that it was inbreeding that made Charles II of Spain
a lantern-jawed idiot whose balls fell off.
Look it up. Or Think 'woody'
On 29/08/2025 12:46, Daniel70 wrote:
On 28/08/2025 1:42 pm, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
Frankly, a little inbreeding doesn't hurt much. Only
gets bad over a few generations. THEN you start to
get the "Deliverance" kind of folks. (cue banjos)
Wellllll, if you believe The Bible, WE all came from just Adam and Eve
and their son Cain (or was it Able that killed Cain??)!!
Inbreeding anyone!
If you believe DNA we shrank to a little over 1000 individuals at one
time in the past
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 04:54:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure.
The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc).
Sort of. The Lutherans are one step removed from Catholicism. A few years back when ecumenism was popular the Catholics asked the Lutherans what the doctrinal sticking points were, figuring that was a good place to start.
The Lutherans said "we'll have to get back to you on that."
It took John Calvin to really bring out the weirdness. 'You're predestined--
to heaven or hell and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. If
your rich and successful it's a good indicator you're going to heaven. If you're poor, there's nothing we can do for you since you're gong to hell anyway.'
On 16/08/2025 7:21 pm, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 04:54:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure.
The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc).
Sort of. The Lutherans are one step removed from Catholicism. A few
years back when ecumenism was popular the Catholics asked the Lutherans
what the doctrinal sticking points were, figuring that was a good place
to start. The Lutherans said "we'll have to get back to you on that."
I think one of my Uncles said back in the 80/90's "They (the Lutherans)
were the first out. They'll be the first back in."
Waiting!! Waiting!!
On 29/08/2025 10:25 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/08/2025 12:46, Daniel70 wrote:Is that right?? Who would'a'thunk??
On 28/08/2025 1:42 pm, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
Frankly, a little inbreeding doesn't hurt much. Only
gets bad over a few generations. THEN you start to
get the "Deliverance" kind of folks. (cue banjos)
Wellllll, if you believe The Bible, WE all came from just Adam and
Eve and their son Cain (or was it Able that killed Cain??)!!
Inbreeding anyone!
If you believe DNA we shrank to a little over 1000 individuals at one
time in the past
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 00:12:10 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 16/08/2025 7:21 pm, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 04:54:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure.
The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc).
Sort of. The Lutherans are one step removed from Catholicism. A few
years back when ecumenism was popular the Catholics asked the Lutherans
what the doctrinal sticking points were, figuring that was a good place
to start. The Lutherans said "we'll have to get back to you on that."
I think one of my Uncles said back in the 80/90's "They (the Lutherans)
were the first out. They'll be the first back in."
Waiting!! Waiting!!
At least in the US the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (screaming liberals) is too busy fighting with the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod (traditional) to present a common front to the Catholics. The Catholics
have their own little civil war going on too.
On 31/08/2025 6:41 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 00:12:10 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:Oh!! What about??
On 16/08/2025 7:21 pm, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 04:54:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure. >>>>>> The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc).
Sort of. The Lutherans are one step removed from Catholicism. A few
years back when ecumenism was popular the Catholics asked the Lutherans >>>> what the doctrinal sticking points were, figuring that was a good place >>>> to start. The Lutherans said "we'll have to get back to you on that."
I think one of my Uncles said back in the 80/90's "They (the Lutherans)
were the first out. They'll be the first back in."
Waiting!! Waiting!!
At least in the US the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (screaming
liberals) is too busy fighting with the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod
(traditional) to present a common front to the Catholics. The Catholics
have their own little civil war going on too.
On 2025-08-31 13:48, Daniel70 wrote:
On 31/08/2025 6:41 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 00:12:10 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:Oh!! What about??
On 16/08/2025 7:21 pm, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 04:54:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro
wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them
feel secure. The problem comes when they start making
them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin
Luther etc).
Sort of. The Lutherans are one step removed from Catholicism.
A few years back when ecumenism was popular the Catholics
asked the Lutherans what the doctrinal sticking points were,
figuring that was a good place to start. The Lutherans said
"we'll have to get back to you on that."
I think one of my Uncles said back in the 80/90's "They (the
Lutherans) were the first out. They'll be the first back in."
Waiting!! Waiting!!
At least in the US the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
(screaming liberals) is too busy fighting with the Lutheran
Church -- Missouri Synod (traditional) to present a common front
to the Catholics. The Catholics have their own little civil war
going on too.
I'm not aware of any particular war :-?
Maybe traditionalism vs intense change.
On 31/08/2025 6:41 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 00:12:10 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:Oh!! What about??
On 16/08/2025 7:21 pm, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 04:54:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure. >>>>>> The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc).
Sort of. The Lutherans are one step removed from Catholicism. A few
years back when ecumenism was popular the Catholics asked the
Lutherans what the doctrinal sticking points were, figuring that was
a good place to start. The Lutherans said "we'll have to get back to
you on that."
I think one of my Uncles said back in the 80/90's "They (the
Lutherans)
were the first out. They'll be the first back in."
Waiting!! Waiting!!
At least in the US the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
(screaming liberals) is too busy fighting with the Lutheran Church --
Missouri Synod (traditional) to present a common front to the
Catholics. The Catholics have their own little civil war going on too.
On 31/08/2025 6:41 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 00:12:10 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:Oh!! What about??
On 16/08/2025 7:21 pm, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 04:54:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Germans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure. >>>>>> The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc).
Sort of. The Lutherans are one step removed from Catholicism. A few
years back when ecumenism was popular the Catholics asked the Lutherans >>>> what the doctrinal sticking points were, figuring that was a good place >>>> to start. The Lutherans said "we'll have to get back to you on that."
I think one of my Uncles said back in the 80/90's "They (the Lutherans)
were the first out. They'll be the first back in."
Waiting!! Waiting!!
At least in the US the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (screaming
liberals) is too busy fighting with the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod
(traditional) to present a common front to the Catholics. The Catholics
have their own little civil war going on too.
On 31/08/2025 10:42 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-31 13:48, Daniel70 wrote:
On 31/08/2025 6:41 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 00:12:10 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 16/08/2025 7:21 pm, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 04:54:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro
wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
I'd guess ..... Either Women Priests or Married Priests.At least in the US the Evangelical Lutheran Church in AmericaOh!! What about??
(screaming liberals) is too busy fighting with the Lutheran
Church -- Missouri Synod (traditional) to present a common front
to the Catholics. The Catholics have their own little civil war
going on too.
I'm not aware of any particular war :-?
Maybe traditionalism vs intense change.
It gets me that the Catholic Church Administration would prefer Men
giving "Communion Services" rather than allowing either Married Male
Priests and/or Married/Unmarried Women Priests.
Admittedly, the Congregations I've seen recently are so small just
having fewer Mass' said by "flying squad" Priests is still a possibility!!
Admittedly, the Congregations I've seen recently are so small just
having fewer Mass' said by "flying squad" Priests is still a
possibility!!
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 23:38:56 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
Admittedly, the Congregations I've seen recently are so small just
having fewer Mass' said by "flying squad" Priests is still a
possibility!!
There is a flying SSPV priest squad that comes here on the 2nd, 4th, and
5th Sundays to hold a traditional Latin Mass. They go to Billings on the
1st, 3rd, and 5th Sundays.
First there was the Society of Saint Pius X that was formed by the traditionalists after Vatican II. I'm not sure about their current status.
I think they're sort of recognized by the Vatican. The Society of Saint
Pius V was formed by a group of priests who broke away over the use of the 1962 liturgy. They're straight sedevacantist and don't think there has
been a legitimate Pope since Pius XII died in '58.
I've never been to their services since a suit, or at least a sport coat,
and tie is required. There's tradition and then there's going to far. A friend mentioned there is a church that sneaks in a Latin Mass although I don't think it's the full Tridentine version.
It leaves the lay Catholics with a confusing situation. Is a Mass
celebrated by one of the canonically irregular groups valid?
Society here is tending towards voting right, with some increasing
percent extreme right, which means conservative thinking is on the rise.
With that background, I don't expect "progress" in the Church.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 21:53:26 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Society here is tending towards voting right, with some increasing
percent extreme right, which means conservative thinking is on the rise.
With that background, I don't expect "progress" in the Church.
We'll see. I had hopes for Benedict but he realized the Jesuit Mafia was beyond control and decided to spend his remaining years in peace. Leo
would have done better to stop talking before he got to "Let us plead God
to stop the pandemic of arms, large and small, which infects our world.”
Wonder, what WERE they worshiping at Gobekli Tepe
and related places, 12,000+ years ago
Catholic heretics who do not accept the liberalization of the Church since the Vatican II conference, who reject the authority of the Liberal Popes and believe much as do the Protestant RWNC that women are to
be led by their husbands and that their proper sphere is the home with emphasis on cooking, cleaning and child-bearing, anti-abortion and
anti-birth control. No votes for the women while homosexuals are worse
than other varieties of what they call "sinners". They may even be so-called White Christian Dominionists bent on instituting a theocracy
in the USA. Certainly they believe that witchcraft was real and that
in the anti-abortion decision they reached back to Old England and
a witch*finder to find precedent.
Those are the sort of Catholics that DJT got appointed to the SCOUSA.
On 01/09/2025 07:32, c186282 wrote:
Wonder, what WERE they worshiping at Gobekli Tepe
and related places, 12,000+ years ago
I don't think they did 'worship'...
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 23:38:56 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
Admittedly, the Congregations I've seen recently are so small just
having fewer Mass' said by "flying squad" Priests is still a
possibility!!
There is a flying SSPV priest squad that comes here on the 2nd, 4th, and
5th Sundays to hold a traditional Latin Mass. They go to Billings on the
1st, 3rd, and 5th Sundays.
First there was the Society of Saint Pius X that was formed by the traditionalists after Vatican II. I'm not sure about their current status.
I think they're sort of recognized by the Vatican. The Society of Saint
Pius V was formed by a group of priests who broke away over the use of the 1962 liturgy. They're straight sedevacantist and don't think there has
been a legitimate Pope since Pius XII died in '58.
I've never been to their services since a suit, or at least a sport coat,
and tie is required. There's tradition and then there's going to far. A friend mentioned there is a church that sneaks in a Latin Mass although I don't think it's the full Tridentine version.
It leaves the lay Catholics with a confusing situation. Is a Mass
celebrated by one of the canonically irregular groups valid?
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 21:48:51 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 31/08/2025 6:41 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 00:12:10 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:Oh!! What about??
On 16/08/2025 7:21 pm, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 04:54:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:24:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>
Sort of. The Lutherans are one step removed from Catholicism. A fewGermans like Following Rules very much. It makes them feel secure. >>>>>>> The problem comes when they start making them
Didn’t they pretty much invent Protestantism? (Martin Luther etc). >>>>>
years back when ecumenism was popular the Catholics asked the
Lutherans what the doctrinal sticking points were, figuring that was >>>>> a good place to start. The Lutherans said "we'll have to get back to >>>>> you on that."
I think one of my Uncles said back in the 80/90's "They (the
Lutherans)
were the first out. They'll be the first back in."
Waiting!! Waiting!!
At least in the US the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
(screaming liberals) is too busy fighting with the Lutheran Church --
Missouri Synod (traditional) to present a common front to the
Catholics. The Catholics have their own little civil war going on too.
The Lutherans or the Catholics? There is some similarity. For the
Lutherans the doctrinal disagreement starts with the 'Book of Concord'.
For the Missouri Synod it's the word of god and a complete statement of
the doctrine. For the ELCA, there is wiggle room leading to:
The ECLA
has LGBQ++ clergy, with the L implying they have female clergy of
any orientation. In the Missouri Synod women may serve in administrative functions created by Man; they don't get to do those things created by
God.
Homosexuality is inherently sinful, abnormal, and an abomination.
Pray for the critters if you must but don't get too close. You probably
can fill in the blanks on abortion, euthanasia, DEI, same sex marriage, inclusive language in the liturgy, etc. The ECLA tends to collect flaming liberals. There's another synod that I think is to the right of the
Missouri Synod but I forget its name.
The Catholics are similar. There are no female priests -- yet. There are
a few married clergy, mainly Anglicans priests that converted. Homosexuals and same sex marriage? Francis muddied that pond pretty well and then
there's the very high profile James Martin SJ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_J._Martin_(priest)
He's either seen as the wave of the future or someone who should be defrocked, excommunicated, and nailed to a cross upside down.
Then there is the Mass. I was indoctrinated pre-Vatican II. The Mass was
said in Latin, the priest faced the altar (preferably East), the altar servers were male,
there was a rail separating the sacred space from the
mundane
and you kneeled at that rail for the priest personally to put the
consecrated Host on your tongue. You did not chew it like a biscuit.
A local church live streams the Mass.
On 1/09/2025 7:28 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 07:32, c186282 wrote:What were they drawing pictures of those animals on the cave wall for,
Wonder, what WERE they worshiping at Gobekli Tepe
and related places, 12,000+ years ago
I don't think they did 'worship'...
then??
"Please, mystical figure, give us more of these to catch, kill and eat."
On 1/09/2025 6:24 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 23:38:56 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:*LATIN* .... Any wonder the numbers are falling .... but, then again,
Admittedly, the Congregations I've seen recently are so small just
having fewer Mass' said by "flying squad" Priests is still a
possibility!!
There is a flying SSPV priest squad that comes here on the 2nd, 4th, and
5th Sundays to hold a traditional Latin Mass. They go to Billings on the
1st, 3rd, and 5th Sundays.
First there was the Society of Saint Pius X that was formed by the
traditionalists after Vatican II. I'm not sure about their current
status.
I think they're sort of recognized by the Vatican. The Society of Saint
Pius V was formed by a group of priests who broke away over the use of
the
1962 liturgy. They're straight sedevacantist and don't think there has
been a legitimate Pope since Pius XII died in '58.
I've never been to their services since a suit, or at least a sport coat,
and tie is required. There's tradition and then there's going to far. A
friend mentioned there is a church that sneaks in a Latin Mass although I
don't think it's the full Tridentine version.
It leaves the lay Catholics with a confusing situation. Is a Mass
celebrated by one of the canonically irregular groups valid?
we've had English Masses since about mid-60's and the numbers have
fallen here as well!!
On 8/2/25 11:18 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
<SNIP>
This thread is absolutely ... I don't know what.
There are 1,138 (+1 for mine) postings here. Me thinks there's a few OT:
LOL
There is a flying SSPV priest squad that comes here on the 2nd, 4th, and
5th Sundays to hold a traditional Latin Mass. They go to Billings on the
1st, 3rd, and 5th Sundays.
...
I've never been to their services since a suit, or at least a sport coat,
and tie is required. There's tradition and then there's going to far. A
friend mentioned there is a church that sneaks in a Latin Mass although I
don't think it's the full Tridentine version.
*LATIN* .... Any wonder the numbers are falling .... but, then again,
we've had English Masses since about mid-60's and the numbers have
fallen here as well!!
Those are the sort of Catholics that DJT got appointed to the
SCOUSA.
There were actually enough?
The Bible, James version esp, was broadly published and more and more
people could READ. THAT became the new Pope, THE reference point.
Popes weren't needed so much anymore.
Ok ... it's super vague/'interpretable' in a lot of places - ergo SO
many brands of Xians (and Moslems/Jews too). BUT, an improvement over
the older times.
Yeap ... and not yet having learnt Latin, I had bugger idea what was
being said AND I WAS AN ALTER SERVER!!
On 1/09/2025 7:28 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 07:32, c186282 wrote:What were they drawing pictures of those animals on the cave wall for,
Wonder, what WERE they worshiping at Gobekli Tepe
and related places, 12,000+ years ago
I don't think they did 'worship'...
then??
"Please, mystical figure, give us more of these to catch, kill and eat."
On 1/09/2025 6:24 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 23:38:56 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:*LATIN* .... Any wonder the numbers are falling .... but, then again,
Admittedly, the Congregations I've seen recently are so small just
having fewer Mass' said by "flying squad" Priests is still a
possibility!!
There is a flying SSPV priest squad that comes here on the 2nd, 4th, and
5th Sundays to hold a traditional Latin Mass. They go to Billings on the
1st, 3rd, and 5th Sundays.
First there was the Society of Saint Pius X that was formed by the
traditionalists after Vatican II. I'm not sure about their current
status.
I think they're sort of recognized by the Vatican. The Society of Saint
Pius V was formed by a group of priests who broke away over the use of
the
1962 liturgy. They're straight sedevacantist and don't think there has
been a legitimate Pope since Pius XII died in '58.
I've never been to their services since a suit, or at least a sport coat,
and tie is required. There's tradition and then there's going to far. A
friend mentioned there is a church that sneaks in a Latin Mass although I
don't think it's the full Tridentine version.
It leaves the lay Catholics with a confusing situation. Is a Mass
celebrated by one of the canonically irregular groups valid?
we've had English Masses since about mid-60's and the numbers have
fallen here as well!!
<https://dailynews.0tnews.com/quantum-ai-just-decoded-gobekli-tepes-symbols-and-what-it-found-was-godlike/>
More like exploitation of the unconscious mind thru symbolic
archetypes.
Very early religion.
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 02:32:23 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The Bible, James version esp, was broadly published and more and more
people could READ. THAT became the new Pope, THE reference point.
Popes weren't needed so much anymore.
Ok ... it's super vague/'interpretable' in a lot of places - ergo SO
many brands of Xians (and Moslems/Jews too). BUT, an improvement over
the older times.
Considering the cherry picked evil semi-literate storefront preachers have come up with it would be better if they couldn't read it. Christian
Zionism runs deep in the Protestant DNA but finding Darby, Schofield, et
al guilty of heresey and burning them at the stake would have been a good thing.
On 1/09/2025 6:24 am, rbowman wrote:
There is a flying SSPV priest squad that comes here on the 2nd, 4th,
and 5th Sundays to hold a traditional Latin Mass. They go to Billings
on the 1st, 3rd, and 5th Sundays.
...
I've never been to their services since a suit, or at least a sport
coat,
and tie is required. There's tradition and then there's going to far.
A friend mentioned there is a church that sneaks in a Latin Mass
although I don't think it's the full Tridentine version.
In my (UU) congregation, we do not dress up to go to church. "When we
are in Church, we are with family".
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 19:26:40 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
<https://dailynews.0tnews.com/quantum-ai-just-decoded-gobekli-tepes-symbols-and-what-it-found-was-godlike/>
More like exploitation of the unconscious mind thru symbolic
archetypes.
Very early religion.
I've visited quite a few of the petroglyph sites in the US southwest. Archaeologists have theories about what the symbols mean, perhaps records
of astronomical events and so forth.
After noticing many of the sites have a good view of the surrounding territory I came up with my own theory. The tribe sent a couple of bored teenagers up as overwatch to make sure the tribe on the other side of the ridge wasn't sneaking up on them. Not having Gameboys the kids passed the time chipping away at rocks. I'm surprised more of the glyphs do not
resemble genitalia.
There are a few pictographs in sheltered locations that show a little more talent but there are the all time favorite hand tracings too.
On Mon, 8/4/2025 5:38 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/4/25 13:20, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 04 Aug 2025 22:00:15 +0200
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"AI" doesn't understand anything about anything; you might as well
ask a parrot.
That is, if the parrot can do probabilities. (-;
Parrots are, in fact, famed for their ability to make statistical
associations between specific vocalizations and cracker delivery.
They also can dance very well for a bird. Can AI do that yet?
A parrot can add to its movement repertory over time finding
new moves. Will AI do that?
bliss - who is somewhat naturally intelligent but cannot dance much >> any longer.
They're making progress. This is the electric Atlas, the follow on to the hydraulic Atlas that fell off the plank it was walking on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I44_zbEwz_w
That's not path planning from first principles (AI thinking
up things to do). That's still a transfer process using software
and a visual simulator on the screen, so they can tweak the things
it is doing.
But in terms of mechanical details, that thing is miles ahead of
the competition. The competition have motors that kind of glitch
several times a second, and that's because they are attempting to use
closed loop feedback and "correct the movement towards an objective",
by "recomputing the solution" maybe 3-10 times a second. The end result,
is the competitors movements are not "smooth".
At some point, they will meld the various technical bits, and
maybe some day Atlas will bolt itself to one of the AI companies
for higher level functions.
When Atlas lands, after performing a stunt, it will move its foot
backwards an inch or two, or incline its foot to restore its balance,
all without using an excess of the other motors on the limbs. It is
applying feedback, but it is not apparent how it is doing that.
So while at some level, the software is coordinating a flip (as a
kind of set piece), some part of the software is computing custom
feedback so the poor thing does not fall over. And you can tell from
the fluidity of the movement, that the package is pretty well tuned.
That's the robot Musk wishes he had.
Boston Dynamics is owned by SoftBank, and has signed some kind of
pledge about not weaponizing it. So while their equipment will haul
military packs around, the devices (like that Atlas), will not be picking
up a rifle or machine gun.
"In October 2022, the company signed a pledge saying it
would not support any weaponization of its robotic creations."
The robot would be only too happy to hand you your gun :-)
Paul
The robot would be only too *happy* to hand you your gun :-)
Paul
On 5/08/2025 9:34 am, Paul wrote:
<Snip>
The robot would be only too *happy* to hand you your gun :-)WHAT?? Have 'they' given robots feeling now?? ;-)
Paul
On 2025-08-05 01:34, Paul wrote:
On Mon, 8/4/2025 5:38 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/4/25 13:20, John Ames wrote:
On Mon, 04 Aug 2025 22:00:15 +0200
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"AI" doesn't understand anything about anything; you might as well >>>>>> ask a parrot.
That is, if the parrot can do probabilities. (-;
Parrots are, in fact, famed for their ability to make statistical
associations between specific vocalizations and cracker delivery.
They also can dance very well for a bird. Can AI do that yet? >>>
A parrot can add to its movement repertory over time finding
new moves. Will AI do that?
bliss - who is somewhat naturally intelligent but cannot dance much
any longer.
They're making progress. This is the electric Atlas, the follow on to the
hydraulic Atlas that fell off the plank it was walking on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I44_zbEwz_w
Impressive.
That's not path planning from first principles (AI thinking
up things to do). That's still a transfer process using software
and a visual simulator on the screen, so they can tweak the things
it is doing.
But in terms of mechanical details, that thing is miles ahead of
the competition. The competition have motors that kind of glitch
several times a second, and that's because they are attempting to use
closed loop feedback and "correct the movement towards an objective",
by "recomputing the solution" maybe 3-10 times a second. The end result,
is the competitors movements are not "smooth".
At some point, they will meld the various technical bits, and
maybe some day Atlas will bolt itself to one of the AI companies
for higher level functions.
When Atlas lands, after performing a stunt, it will move its foot
backwards an inch or two, or incline its foot to restore its balance,
all without using an excess of the other motors on the limbs. It is
applying feedback, but it is not apparent how it is doing that.
So while at some level, the software is coordinating a flip (as a
kind of set piece), some part of the software is computing custom
feedback so the poor thing does not fall over. And you can tell from
the fluidity of the movement, that the package is pretty well tuned.
That's the robot Musk wishes he had.
Boston Dynamics is owned by SoftBank, and has signed some kind of
pledge about not weaponizing it. So while their equipment will haul
military packs around, the devices (like that Atlas), will not be picking
up a rifle or machine gun.
"In October 2022, the company signed a pledge saying it
would not support any weaponization of its robotic creations."
If the robot ends being flexible, someone will teach them to shoot as aftermarket addon.
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 01:15:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:31:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of
aggression.
So why did the US feel so upset about the Soviets basing some
missiles in Cuba, then?
Exactly. Currently the US is also testy about the Chinese in Panama
and they didn't even bring missiles with them afaik.
Missiles in Cuba were the older shorter range missiles but put DC in
range of attack.
The Chinese in Panama deliberately avoided bringing missiles with
them.
They will wait until Trump or another imbecile is making more
threats then the Panamanian elite will want some for defense along
with the experts to train the locals in their effective use of
anti-missile misseles and/or drones...
bliss
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 01:15:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:31:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of
aggression.
So why did the US feel so upset about the Soviets basing some
missiles in Cuba, then?
Exactly. Currently the US is also testy about the Chinese in Panama
and they didn't even bring missiles with them afaik.
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 23:56:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
Yeap ... and not yet having learnt Latin, I had bugger idea what was
being said AND I WAS AN ALTER SERVER!!
The important part was 'p: Ite missa est. R: Deo gratias!' ('Go, the Mass
is ended. Thank God!'
I think that was a feature rather than a bug.' The pomp, ceremony, Latin, vestments, candle, incense, bells, and so on established a sense of the sacred and mysterious different from every day life. The rite was
centered around the Transubstantiation, a sacred mystery.
Subtract too much of that awe and mystery and you tend to slip into the memorialism of most of the Protestant denominations. The Lutherans sit on
the fence with consubstantiation.
The same goes for the physical design of a church. One church in town is modern, or was at least modern when it was built 30? years ago. The pews
are in a semicircular arrangement. It feels like a bus station.
I'm probably wrong but I think tradition plays a larger role in people's lives than they will admit.
On 18/08/2025 8:15 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 01:15:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:"the Chinese in Panama"?? But I though the Yanks were in Panama??
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:31:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of aggression.
So why did the US feel so upset about the Soviets basing some missiles
in Cuba, then?
Exactly. Currently the US is also testy about the Chinese in Panama and
they didn't even bring missiles with them afaik.
If the robot ends being flexible, someone will teach them to shoot as aftermarket addon.
Tend to agree. Most of that stuff is archaic "graphitti"
and probably done by kids. Not much "profound meaning".
My childhood Church was crucifix shaped, High Alter in the Head portion, Nun's 'chapel' in one 'arm', Priests dressing-room in other 'arm', a big 'open space' between those three and the 'congregation down the 'body'
of the church.
Religious are OF humans, BY humans and ultimately bent
to serve the wants and needs of humans.
On 2/09/2025 6:29 am, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 23:56:37 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:My childhood Church was crucifix shaped, High Alter in the Head portion, Nun's 'chapel' in one 'arm', Priests dressing-room in other 'arm', a big 'open space' between those three and the 'congregation down the 'body'
Yeap ... and not yet having learnt Latin, I had bugger idea what was
being said AND I WAS AN ALTER SERVER!!
The important part was 'p: Ite missa est. R: Deo gratias!' ('Go, the
Mass
is ended. Thank God!'
I think that was a feature rather than a bug.' The pomp, ceremony,
Latin,
vestments, candle, incense, bells, and so on established a sense of the
sacred and mysterious different from every day life. The rite was
centered around the Transubstantiation, a sacred mystery.
Subtract too much of that awe and mystery and you tend to slip into the
memorialism of most of the Protestant denominations. The Lutherans sit on
the fence with consubstantiation.
The same goes for the physical design of a church. One church in town is
modern, or was at least modern when it was built 30? years ago. The pews
are in a semicircular arrangement. It feels like a bus station.
I'm probably wrong but I think tradition plays a larger role in people's
lives than they will admit.
of the church.
Everybody knew where they were supposed to be!!
When the Priest was turned around to face the congregation, a new table
was placed in the middle of the 'open space'.
On 18/08/2025 8:15 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 01:15:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:"the Chinese in Panama"?? But I though the Yanks were in Panama??
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:31:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of
aggression.
So why did the US feel so upset about the Soviets basing some
missiles in Cuba, then?
Exactly. Currently the US is also testy about the Chinese in Panama
and they didn't even bring missiles with them afaik.
On 18/08/2025 8:32 am, Bobbie Sellers wrote:> On 8/17/25 15:15, rbowman wrote:
.... and the "duck and cover"!! ;-)On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 01:15:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 11:31:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Putting missiles somewhere to defend, isn't an act of
aggression.
So why did the US feel so upset about the Soviets basing some
missiles in Cuba, then?
Exactly. Currently the US is also testy about the Chinese in Panama
and they didn't even bring missiles with them afaik.
Missiles in Cuba were the older shorter range missiles but put DC in
range of attack.
The Chinese in Panama deliberately avoided bringing missiles with them.
They will wait until Trump or another imbecile is making more
threats then the Panamanian elite will want some for defense along
with the experts to train the locals in their effective use of
anti-missile misseles and/or drones...
bliss
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