(yes, Elon is weird too - but I don't hold it
against him)
On 21/08/2025 2:57 pm, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
(yes, Elon is weird too - but I don't hold it
against him)
Last I heard of Elon, there was talk of him setting up his own U.S.
Political Party.
If he did, would it achieve anything (apart from wasting money)??
On 21/08/2025 2:57 pm, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
(yes, Elon is weird too - but I don't hold it against him)
Last I heard of Elon, there was talk of him setting up his own U.S.
Political Party.
If he did, would it achieve anything (apart from wasting money)??
The car radio (entertainment center?) has a CD player that I have very
rarely used. Mp3s don't skip on bad roads and it has a USB port.
I have to agree. I have a USB sick with almost all my music on it set to
play randomly.
My car is Too Old .... CD/Casette ... NO USB.
Before that I had a Mustang, whose CD/Cassette/AM/FM Radio developed mechanical problems in the CD and cassette mechanisms, but a visit to
BestBuy Electronics got me a great CD/Radio/USB player that fit nicely
in the dashboard, thanks to modular mounting standards. Cost me about
USD 150 including installation.
On 8/20/25 4:50 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The car radio (entertainment center?) has a CD player that I have very >>>> rarely used. Mp3s don't skip on bad roads and it has a USB port.
On 19/08/2025 19:21, rbowman wrote:
I have to agree. I have a USB sick with almost all my music on it set to >>> play randomly.
On 2025-08-20, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
My car is Too Old .... CD/Casette ... NO USB.
My current car is a 2011 Prius with an OK audio/navigation package
(though recently there is some instability in connecting to my iPhone -
I'm blaming it on a bug in the phone's BlueTooth driver).
It has a 5-disc changer with can play audio or MP3 CDs.
Before that I had a Mustang, whose CD/Cassette/AM/FM Radio developed mechanical problems in the CD and cassette mechanisms, but a visit to
BestBuy Electronics got me a great CD/Radio/USB player that fit nicely
in the dashboard, thanks to modular mounting standards. Cost me about
USD 150 including installation.
The new stuff locks you in to the original manufacturer, but pre-2005 or
so, the radio is a separate unit that can be easily replaced/upgraded. I think the aftermarket radios are even still on the store shelves.
The new stuff locks you in to the original manufacturer, but pre-2005 or
so, the radio is a separate unit that can be easily replaced/upgraded. I
think the aftermarket radios are even still on the store shelves.
I can not imagine how I could change the "radio" on my car if I wanted
to do so, that I don't, but I'm curious. The "radio" has a display and
it also does things like configure several options for the car system,
or connect to my smartphone and display the navigation data. I don't
think this kind of thing is standard anymore.
On 2025-08-20, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
A couple of years later the Falcons morphed into the Mustang and it was
also the basis for the Ranchero for a while. A lot of people associate
'cowboy Cadillac' with the El Camino but Ford got there first with the
full sized Ranchero in the late '50s. Then it shrunk in the Falcon based
years and got bigger again.
I referred to the El Camino as a "city slicker's pickup truck".
On 2025-08-20, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-20, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
A couple of years later the Falcons morphed into the Mustang and it
was also the basis for the Ranchero for a while. A lot of people
associate 'cowboy Cadillac' with the El Camino but Ford got there
first with the full sized Ranchero in the late '50s. Then it shrunk in
the Falcon based years and got bigger again.
I referred to the El Camino as a "city slicker's pickup truck".
Before the EU harmonizations, Denamrk had a 180% tax on firt time registration of new cars (because there was no local auto industry, and
they wanted to preserve currency by repairing old cars instead of
importing new ones). But there was no tax on heavy trucks. So they
brought in El Caminos and added a 500 lb steel plate on the truck bed. Presto: It was a heavy truck for tax purposes (above 2 tons unloaded
weight). Pretty useless for hauling goods, but a nice airconditioned
Cadillac ride.
On 2025-08-22 00:51, Lars Poulsen wrote:
The new stuff locks you in to the original manufacturer, but pre-2005 or >>> so, the radio is a separate unit that can be easily replaced/upgraded. I >>> think the aftermarket radios are even still on the store shelves.
On 2025-08-22, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
I can not imagine how I could change the "radio" on my car if I wanted
to do so, that I don't, but I'm curious. The "radio" has a display and
it also does things like configure several options for the car system,
or connect to my smartphone and display the navigation data. I don't
think this kind of thing is standard anymore.
As I said ... what model year is your car? When the "radio" became a computer, aftermarket upgrades went out the window(s)!
The EPA imposed fleet fuel economy regulations on vehicles
but exempted light trucks from many of the requirements. Put a shiny body
on a pickup chassis and, voila, the SUV was born. Of course there always
were vans built on light truck chassis but without rather expensive conversions they were noisy, uncomfortable, and almost impossible to heat
in the winter.
On 2025-08-22 00:51, Lars Poulsen wrote:
The new stuff locks you in to the original manufacturer, but pre-2005
or so, the radio is a separate unit that can be easily
replaced/upgraded. I think the aftermarket radios are even still on
the store shelves.
On 2025-08-22, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
I can not imagine how I could change the "radio" on my car if I wanted
to do so, that I don't, but I'm curious. The "radio" has a display and
it also does things like configure several options for the car system,
or connect to my smartphone and display the navigation data. I don't
think this kind of thing is standard anymore.
As I said ... what model year is your car? When the "radio" became a computer, aftermarket upgrades went out the window(s)!
I can not imagine how I could change the "radio" on my car if I wanted
to do so, that I don't, but I'm curious. The "radio" has a display and
it also does things like configure several options for the car system,
or connect to my smartphone and display the navigation data. I don't
think this kind of thing is standard anymore.
On 22/08/2025 19:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-22 15:49, c186282 wrote:Why not? It worked. A lot better than any US truck with a solid axle and
On 8/21/25 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-21 06:51, c186282 wrote:
Seems like every trick and variation has been
tried over the past century. Now if somebody
has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap V-twin
cycle engine spliced in I might be interested
in buying 🙂
An electric 2CV is planned for 2028 :-p
<https://2cev.co.uk/>
<https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/citron-2cv-electric-revival>
GAK !!!
No, never EVER !
LOL :-D
I wonder what kind of suspension they are planning. The classic?
cart springs
I don't know. When they made the modern version of the Volkswagen
beetle I hated it. It was no longer a car for the people, but a
luxury thing.
On the other hand, an electric 2CV will be heavy, so it needs a
serious redesign. The original had thin walls, the tiniest bump with
a modern car and it is wreck.
On 22/08/2025 19:19, rbowman wrote:
The EPA imposed fleet fuel economy regulations on vehicles
but exempted light trucks from many of the requirements. Put a shiny body
on a pickup chassis and, voila, the SUV was born. Of course there always
were vans built on light truck chassis but without rather expensive
conversions they were noisy, uncomfortable, and almost impossible to heat
in the winter.
Over Here it was the other way around. Small cars didn't have enough
storage capacity or visibility so they put bigger bodies on them 4WD and bigger tyres.
Over Here it was the other way around. Small cars didn't have enough
storage capacity or visibility so they put bigger bodies on them 4WD and bigger tyres.
I don't know. When they made the modern version of the Volkswagen beetle
I hated it. It was no longer a car for the people, but a luxury thing.
IIRC it had a two cylinder wasted spark engine up front driving the
front wheels and trailing arm rear suspension with I think coil-over
shocks.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 11:58:16 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I can not imagine how I could change the "radio" on my car if I wanted
to do so, that I don't, but I'm curious. The "radio" has a display and
it also does things like configure several options for the car system,
or connect to my smartphone and display the navigation data. I don't
think this kind of thing is standard anymore.
The 'radio' in my 2018 Toyota also show fuel economy and other stuff. The volume and mode can be controlled for rocker switches on the steering
wheel. There are also switches for phone stuff on the other side of the
wheel that I wandered into by mistake. Never used the phone as a phone in
the car and have no idea how it works. I have used the phone with jango through Bluetooth for music. It's also a convenient way to determine phone coverage -- when the music stops playing there isn't any.
The 2007 Toyota did not have a radio. I was happy to find it had speakers
and a harness anyway so adding the aftermarket radio was easy. I doubt you could buy a new car without a 'infotainment' device. Some of the car
reviews spend more time on that than handling and performance.
On 2025-08-22 20:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/08/2025 19:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-22 15:49, c186282 wrote:Why not? It worked. A lot better than any US truck with a solid axle
On 8/21/25 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-21 06:51, c186282 wrote:
Seems like every trick and variation has been
tried over the past century. Now if somebody
has a Citroen 2cv with a big Jap V-twin
cycle engine spliced in I might be interested
in buying 🙂
An electric 2CV is planned for 2028 :-p
<https://2cev.co.uk/>
<https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/citron-2cv-electric-revival>
GAK !!!
No, never EVER !
LOL :-D
I wonder what kind of suspension they are planning. The classic?
and cart springs
I don't know. When they made the modern version of the Volkswagen beetle
I hated it. It was no longer a car for the people, but a luxury thing.
On the other hand, an electric 2CV will be heavy, so it needs a serious redesign. The original had thin walls, the tiniest bump with a modern
car and it is wreck.
On 22/08/2025 21:46, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't know. When they made the modern version of the Volkswagen
beetle I hated it. It was no longer a car for the people, but a
luxury thing.
On the other hand, an electric 2CV will be heavy, so it needs a
serious redesign. The original had thin walls, the tiniest bump with
a modern car and it is wreck.
Well maybe not so much, if its limited range only
IIRC it had a two cylinder wasted spark engine up front driving the
front wheels and trailing arm rear suspension with I think coil-over
shocks.
I had a German girlfriend who had one all painted up psychedelic called 'obelix'
On 8/22/25 5:03 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/08/2025 21:46, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't know. When they made the modern version of the Volkswagen
beetle I hated it. It was no longer a car for the people, but a
luxury thing.
On the other hand, an electric 2CV will be heavy, so it needs a
serious redesign. The original had thin walls, the tiniest bump with
a modern car and it is wreck.
Well maybe not so much, if its limited range only
IIRC it had a two cylinder wasted spark engine up front driving the
front wheels and trailing arm rear suspension with I think coil-over
shocks.
I had a German girlfriend who had one all painted up psychedelic
called 'obelix'
That was The Problem ... it was a hippie-dippy
retro idea, NOT a real vehicle. Total CRAP.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 22:03:16 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
IIRC it had a two cylinder wasted spark engine up front driving the
front wheels and trailing arm rear suspension with I think coil-over
shocks.
Did it have that characteristic Harley sound where the engine is misfiring about 10% of the time at idle due to poor scavenging and the wasted spark.
The mid 60s Cougars - so nice - Mustang competitor - soon turned into
a gigantic land-yacht. No longer a 'cougar' - more an over-fed cow.
More recently Toyota did the same to their very popular Rav-4 ... now
a "full-sized" SUV instead of the nimble convenient original version.
Still want one with a 100-hp motorcycle engine
On 23/08/2025 09:11, c186282 wrote:
On 8/22/25 5:03 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/08/2025 21:46, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't know. When they made the modern version of the Volkswagen
beetle I hated it. It was no longer a car for the people, but a
luxury thing.
On the other hand, an electric 2CV will be heavy, so it needs a
serious redesign. The original had thin walls, the tiniest bump with
a modern car and it is wreck.
Well maybe not so much, if its limited range only
IIRC it had a two cylinder wasted spark engine up front driving the
front wheels and trailing arm rear suspension with I think coil-over
shocks.
I had a German girlfriend who had one all painted up psychedelic
called 'obelix'
That was The Problem ... it was a hippie-dippy
retro idea, NOT a real vehicle. Total CRAP.
Well it was then, because second hand ones were cheap as chips. Same as
the Beetle back in the 'surfer' days, where you could steal someone's
engine and subframe in a car park in under three hours
I drove a hired beetle in Mexico about 1999. It had aircon. Amazing.
On 8/22/25 2:55 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/08/2025 19:19, rbowman wrote:
The EPA imposed fleet fuel economy regulations on vehicles
but exempted light trucks from many of the requirements. Put a shiny
body
on a pickup chassis and, voila, the SUV was born. Of course there always >>> were vans built on light truck chassis but without rather expensive
conversions they were noisy, uncomfortable, and almost impossible to
heat
in the winter.
Over Here it was the other way around. Small cars didn't have enough
storage capacity or visibility so they put bigger bodies on them 4WD
and bigger tyres.
USA ... models always get BIGGER AND BIGGER.
On 2025-08-23 06:42, c186282 wrote:
On 8/22/25 2:55 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/08/2025 19:19, rbowman wrote:
The EPA imposed fleet fuel economy regulations on vehicles
but exempted light trucks from many of the requirements. Put a shiny
body
on a pickup chassis and, voila, the SUV was born. Of course there
always
were vans built on light truck chassis but without rather expensive
conversions they were noisy, uncomfortable, and almost impossible to
heat
in the winter.
Over Here it was the other way around. Small cars didn't have enough
storage capacity or visibility so they put bigger bodies on them 4WD
and bigger tyres.
USA ... models always get BIGGER AND BIGGER.
The Tesla Cybertruck is so big that it is not road worthy in the EU.
Can't be certified, can't be insured.
The Tesla Cybertruck is so big that it is not road worthy in the EU.
Can't be certified, can't be insured.
On 2025-08-23 06:42, c186282 wrote:
On 8/22/25 2:55 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/08/2025 19:19, rbowman wrote:
The EPA imposed fleet fuel economy regulations on vehicles but
exempted light trucks from many of the requirements. Put a shiny body
on a pickup chassis and, voila, the SUV was born. Of course there
always were vans built on light truck chassis but without rather
expensive conversions they were noisy, uncomfortable, and almost
impossible to heat in the winter.
Over Here it was the other way around. Small cars didn't have enough
storage capacity or visibility so they put bigger bodies on them 4WD
and bigger tyres.
USA ... models always get BIGGER AND BIGGER.
The Tesla Cybertruck is so big that it is not road worthy in the EU.
Can't be certified, can't be insured.
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 14:15:19 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-23 06:42, c186282 wrote:
On 8/22/25 2:55 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/08/2025 19:19, rbowman wrote:
The EPA imposed fleet fuel economy regulations on vehicles but
exempted light trucks from many of the requirements. Put a shiny body >>>>> on a pickup chassis and, voila, the SUV was born. Of course there
always were vans built on light truck chassis but without rather
expensive conversions they were noisy, uncomfortable, and almost
impossible to heat in the winter.
Over Here it was the other way around. Small cars didn't have enough
storage capacity or visibility so they put bigger bodies on them 4WD
and bigger tyres.
USA ... models always get BIGGER AND BIGGER.
The Tesla Cybertruck is so big that it is not road worthy in the EU.
Can't be certified, can't be insured.
It isn't that big compared to a F-250 Super Duty Crew Cab. The Ford is almost 4 feet longer overall, a little less that a 3 foot longer
wheelbase, The curb weight is almost the same but you have to consider the battery weight in the Tesla. The Tesla turning radius is smaller.
Perhaps the EU doesn't have the selection of large US pickups. Around here the Cybertruck is only remarkable because it looks so weird not because it
is big.
On 24/08/2025 13:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-23 06:42, c186282 wrote:I am nor sure its the size. I think it has sharp edges that might slice pedestrians in half.
On 8/22/25 2:55 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/08/2025 19:19, rbowman wrote:
The EPA imposed fleet fuel economy regulations on vehicles
but exempted light trucks from many of the requirements. Put a
shiny body
on a pickup chassis and, voila, the SUV was born. Of course there
always
were vans built on light truck chassis but without rather expensive
conversions they were noisy, uncomfortable, and almost impossible
to heat
in the winter.
Over Here it was the other way around. Small cars didn't have enough
storage capacity or visibility so they put bigger bodies on them 4WD
and bigger tyres.
USA ... models always get BIGGER AND BIGGER.
The Tesla Cybertruck is so big that it is not road worthy in the EU.
Can't be certified, can't be insured.
The front bumper and (hood) are closely specified to hurt peds as little
as possible
On 2025-08-24, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
The Tesla Cybertruck is so big that it is not road worthy in the EU.
Can't be certified, can't be insured.
I heard that the Austin Mini, when it first came out, wasn't considered roadworthy in the U.S. because it was too small. Too short a wheelbase
or something.
Yes, but Tesla and its owner are so proud of it that they want to sell
it everywhere. And of course, it is a remarkable car; I mean, it gets a stare.
The other big pickups, I know nothing about them.
On 2025-08-24, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
The Tesla Cybertruck is so big that it is not road worthy in the EU.
Can't be certified, can't be insured.
I heard that the Austin Mini, when it first came out, wasn't
considered roadworthy in the U.S. because it was too small.
Too short a wheelbase or something.
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 23:04:21 +0200
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
Yes, but Tesla and its owner are so proud of it that they want to
sell it everywhere. And of course, it is a remarkable car; I mean, it
gets a stare.
The other big pickups, I know nothing about them.
That whole class of vehicles could be called "compensators" - things
designed less because anyone *needs* them as because there's a whole population of desperately insecure not-so-young men trying to prove something, and the only way they can think of to do it is with a
Freudian display of expensive, ugly status symbols.
On 24/08/2025 20:19, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-24, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:I wouldn't be surprised.
The Tesla Cybertruck is so big that it is not road worthy in the EU.
Can't be certified, can't be insured.
I heard that the Austin Mini, when it first came out, wasn't
considered roadworthy in the U.S. because it was too small.
Too short a wheelbase or something.
I do recall with massive amusement that some UK cars for export were
fitted with air pumps to pump air into the exhaust so that the *concentration* - but not the total amount - of unburnt fuels would meet (probably California) regulations
On 2025-08-25 12:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/08/2025 20:19, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-24, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:I wouldn't be surprised.
The Tesla Cybertruck is so big that it is not road worthy in the EU.
Can't be certified, can't be insured.
I heard that the Austin Mini, when it first came out, wasn't
considered roadworthy in the U.S. because it was too small.
Too short a wheelbase or something.
I do recall with massive amusement that some UK cars for export were
fitted with air pumps to pump air into the exhaust so that the
*concentration* - but not the total amount - of unburnt fuels would
meet (probably California) regulations
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
Unless it is during starting up a cold engine, with a very rich mixture.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 04:23:03 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately mis-
tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of getting
stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but sometimes
white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that it's ever been off
road or hauled a work load. Sort of like the pimped-out Hummer in the closing credits of the movie _Cars_.
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.
I somewhat sympathise
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of
getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clevel by being obnoxious to everyone around
you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report straight to the Soylent plant.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 21:53:27 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
My oh my. A Libral environmentalist!
No, just someone who has to deal with assholes dumping smoke on me
during the commute because it makes them feel better about their
crippling insecurity.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 21:53:27 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
My oh my. A Libral environmentalist!
No, just someone who has to deal with assholes dumping smoke on me
during the commute because it makes them feel better about their
crippling insecurity.
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was
about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an
environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to
that a fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with
the excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Then you have a full battery to travel to the next refueling
station or charging station.
As for pickups for City Boys my driver used to have a Toyota
but now drives a Prius. He also used to operate a ic scooter in
downtown San Francisco. He gave up the scooter despite the
ease of parking.
bliss
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to that a
fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with the
excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been
more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was
about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an
environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to
that a fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with
the excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Then you have a full battery to travel to the next refueling
station or charging station.
As for pickups for City Boys my driver used to have a Toyota
but now drives a Prius. He also used to operate a ic scooter in
downtown San Francisco. He gave up the scooter despite the
ease of parking.
bliss
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to that a
fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with the
excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Hydrogen bomb? One of the companies I worked for produced aircraft strobe lights among other products. They were quartz glass which requires a
hydrogen flame for blowing where soda glass only needs oxyacetylene.
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Ironically if anything was going to blow the place up due to a leak it
would be the acetylene.
The tube composition has improved since the early '70s and the allowable pressure for transport has increased but the actual weight of the hydrogen was a fraction of the weight of the tube trailer. That's the problem for hydrogen,
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences still have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection...
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences still have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
We have three phase on the power poles on the four lane road
near my residential street. This does NOT mean the utility agrees
to EVER run those three phases, up one of our side streets.
Not going to happen. They can barely keep our power tipped upright
right now as it is. They only have a limited budget for capacity
expansion (they've improved the main feed coming into the city,
but not any local facilities at all).
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW so
no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of
getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clevel by being obnoxious to everyone around
you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report straight to the Soylent plant.
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
On 27/08/2025 13:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:They have centre tapped transformers to give two possible voltages -
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or
do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
outside to middle =110V or across the pair =220V
Not sure where the grounding is, though
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
US elexctrical installations scare me.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
On 2025-08-27 17:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/2025 13:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:They have centre tapped transformers to give two possible voltages -
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.
Is that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker ....
or do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
outside to middle =110V or across the pair =220V
Not sure where the grounding is, though
Centre.
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
US elexctrical installations scare me.
It is different.
On 2025-08-27 20:18, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
...
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house >>> are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
Ah, I had doubts about the exact voltage. 110, 115, 120? I never
remember it.
On 27/08/2025 19:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 20:18, Char Jackson wrote:It's been all three AFAICR., Like the UK used to be 240V and really
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
...
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for >>>> big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different >>>> and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
Ah, I had doubts about the exact voltage. 110, 115, 120? I never
remember it.
mostly still is but to 'harmonise' with the EU it's quoted as 230V ±5%
which mainly covers the range...
On 2025-08-27 05:38, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to that a >>> fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with the
excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Hydrogen bomb? One of the companies I worked for produced aircraft strobe
lights among other products. They were quartz glass which requires a
hydrogen flame for blowing where soda glass only needs oxyacetylene.
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents
but we
needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the
premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
:-}
Ironically if anything was going to blow the place up due to a leak it
would be the acetylene.
The tube composition has improved since the early '70s and the allowable
pressure for transport has increased but the actual weight of the
hydrogen
was a fraction of the weight of the tube trailer. That's the problem for
hydrogen,
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences
still
have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very
expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive as gasoline.
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
On 8/27/25 02:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 05:38, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences
still
have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very
expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive
as gasoline.
As expensive as Gasoline in California? I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the
Midwest. But the point is that electrical cars produce less
pollution not that they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why
gasoline is more expensive in California because we demand less
polluting fuel formulations. It only helps a little but every
little bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run
in front of it.
As expensive as Gasoline in California? I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the
Midwest. But the point is that electrical cars produce less
pollution not that they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why
gasoline is more expensive in California because we demand less
polluting fuel formulations. It only helps a little but every little
bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run in front
of it.
"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading upwards, maybe.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive as gasoline.
We have three phase on the power poles on the four lane road near my residential street. This does NOT mean the utility agrees to EVER run
those three phases, up one of our side streets.
Not going to happen. They can barely keep our power tipped upright right
now as it is. They only have a limited budget for capacity expansion
(they've improved the main feed coming into the city, but not any local facilities at all).
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
Which third-world country is this?
On 2025-08-27 20:18, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
...
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are
different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
Ah, I had doubts about the exact voltage. 110, 115, 120? I never
remember it.
They have centre tapped transformers to give two possible voltages -
outside to middle =110V or across the pair =220V Not sure where the
grounding is, though
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
US elexctrical installations scare me.
On 2025-08-27 22:04, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/27/25 02:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 05:38, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences
still
have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very
expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive
as gasoline.
As expensive as Gasoline in California? I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the
Midwest. But the point is that electrical cars produce less
pollution not that they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why
gasoline is more expensive in California because we demand less
polluting fuel formulations. It only helps a little but every
little bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run
in front of it.
I have not investigated.
Gasoline in Europe is heavily taxed. Google says the litre of gasoline
in California is about €1.15/litre, while here it is about €1.50/litre. We still win.
Public EV charging spots are installed by companies that want a profit,You know the environment is where people and everything people
so they charge a lot; the maximum they can charge is bound by the price
of gasoline. Reducing the pollution is nice, but I also want to reduce
the costs to me.
How about the costs of destroying the environment?
On 8/27/25 13:19, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 22:04, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/27/25 02:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 05:38, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:07:57 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
veryThe problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences
still
have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be
thatexpensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes
only have on street parking.
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive
as gasoline.
As expensive as Gasoline in California? I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the
Midwest. But the point is that electrical cars produce less
pollution not that they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why
gasoline is more expensive in California because we demand less
polluting fuel formulations. It only helps a little but every
little bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run
in front of it.
I have not investigated.
Gasoline in Europe is heavily taxed. Google says the litre of gasoline
in California is about €1.15/litre, while here it is about €1.50/litre.
We still win.
I really doubt it is a contest. The contest is to get rid of pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer. Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere. Our gas in California
is taxed as well. A problem with electrically powered vehicles not using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which are
derived from the Gas taxes.
Public EV charging spots are installed by companies that want a profit,You know the environment is where people and everything people depend upon can live?
so they charge a lot; the maximum they can charge is bound by the price
of gasoline. Reducing the pollution is nice, but I also want to reduce
the costs to me.
How about the costs of destroying the environment?
Like the foolish living creature put into a pot of cold water
thinks it
is fine as the pot begins to heat up and then it is too late, people living in a warming climate think it is ok until the heat is too much, first for
the crops they depend upon. then for the animals both the ones they
eat and the animals they love and finally for the people whether or
not they wanted to reduce their particular cost of living.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 20:42:43 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-27 20:18, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 16:20:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
...
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the >>>> house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are
different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
All correct, but it's most commonly referred to as 120/240.
Ah, I had doubts about the exact voltage. 110, 115, 120? I never
remember it.
119.4 today :)
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2023/03/standard-voltage-levels-in- us.html
"Good to Know: Beginning in the 1920s, 110V was the standard. This
gradually increased to 115V in the 1930s and then 117V in the 1950s, but
was rapidly replaced by 120V in the 1960s. The National Electrical Code
(NEC) officially declared 120V as the standard voltage in the 1968 and
1984 editions."
The generating plants didn't increase the voltage uniformly and what
people called it changed even slower. I'm old enough that it was called
110. If you really want to know what it is, stick a meter on the socket.
If they fiddle with the voltage too much you have a brownout. Most things
can handle 110 - 125.
You do not transport it to the refueling station but generatehydrogen
at the refueling station using clean electricity to hydrolize water.
On 2025-08-27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been >>>> more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was >>> about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an
environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to
that a fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with
the excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Then you have a full battery to travel to the next refueling
station or charging station.
As for pickups for City Boys my driver used to have a Toyota
but now drives a Prius. He also used to operate a ic scooter in
downtown San Francisco. He gave up the scooter despite the
ease of parking.
bliss
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd go for electric engines and transformers to feed these from 25 kV 50 Hz...
Public EV charging spots are installed by companies that want a profit,
so they charge a lot; the maximum the can charge is bound by the price
of gasoline. Reducing the pollution is nice, but I also want to reduce
the costs to me.
I really doubt it is a contest. The contest is to get rid ofpollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer. Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere. Our gas in California
is taxed as well. A problem with electrically powered vehicles not
using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which
are derived from the Gas taxes.
On 27/08/2025 21:04, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
As expensive as Gasoline in California? I beg leave to doubt that.
Maybe more expensive than gasoline on the East Coast or in the Midwest.
But the point is that electrical cars produce less pollution not that
they are cheaper to buy or operate. That is why gasoline is more
expensive in California because we demand less polluting fuel
formulations. It only helps a little but every little
bit counts in the long run if the human race has a long run in front
of it.
bless! A born aqain Green!
And in the San Francisco Bay Area we have some commutes that are
80-100 miles each way. Back in the 1960s we had people who rode the bus
from Sacramento to San Francisco then had a rented room until the end of their work week when they commuted via bus again back to the Sacramento
area. Now a days they are driving or riding commuter trains from other
places in the Central Valley.
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally 240v,
so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide over 3kW
so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains. Is
that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or do
they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
On 27/08/2025 5:59 am, John Ames wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading upwards, maybe.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of
getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clever by being obnoxious to everyone around
you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report
straight to the Soylent plant.
Love the "Soylent Green" reference. ;-)
On 27/08/2025 13:40, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:They have centre tapped transformers to give two possible voltages -
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or
do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
outside to middle =110V or across the pair =220V
Not sure where the grounding is, though
In either case THAT's Weird!!No, just shit.
US elexctrical installations scare me.
On 8/27/25 5:20 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Unburnt fuel? Shouldn't that not happen? In Europe fuel has always been >>>>> more expensive than in the USA. A design wasting fuel is not good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
Volkswagen finally came up with a decent diesel with the TDI. True it was >>>> about nitrogen oxide but you can have a efficient engine or an
environmentally friendly engine. Pick one.
Or you can go electrical and have more of both efficiency and
environmental protection... You can also go to hydrogen and some
Japanese company has a very efficient engine. I would prefer to
that a fuel cell producing electricity to keep the battery charged with
the excess going to the electrical motors that drive the vehicle.
Then you have a full battery to travel to the next refueling
station or charging station.
As for pickups for City Boys my driver used to have a Toyota
but now drives a Prius. He also used to operate a ic scooter in
downtown San Francisco. He gave up the scooter despite the
ease of parking.
bliss
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd go for electric engines and
transformers to feed these from 25 kV 50 Hz...
The batteries still just SUCK. You'll spend most
of your trip re-charging. Then they'll set your
house on fire.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 22:19:05 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Public EV charging spots are installed by companies that want a profit,
so they charge a lot; the maximum the can charge is bound by the price
of gasoline. Reducing the pollution is nice, but I also want to reduce
the costs to me.
The green industries in the US have been heavily subsidized by the federal and state governments so it's difficult to unravel the true costs although some are being phased out.
https://www.cpr.org/2023/08/04/colorado-electric-vehicle-discounts-guide/
In other words, the state picks Smith's pocket and gives the money to
Jones to promote their vision. No surprise, since that's how government
works in all cases.
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
the batteries
This seems to really just be a made up talking point from the far-right because they want to attack anything that they see as
environmental-friendly.
On 28/08/2025 10:19, Nuno Silva wrote:
This seems to really just be a made up talking point from the far-right
because they want to attack anything that they see as
environmental-friendly.
No, not because its seen as environment friendly, but because it
actually isn't. It's all part of a Great Libral Green Boondoggle where everyone signals their virtue, and fills their boots, everything gets
more expensive and CO2 emissions keep rising, regardless
On 28/08/2025 03:22, c186282 wrote:
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
the batteries
It is almost impossible for that to happen.
They have pushed lithium to very close to its theoretical limits, and
its the best metal there is
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:47:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive as
gasoline.
I have no reason to seek them out and have only seen one public charging station at the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson TN. I've no idea what the
cost was. I think you plug in your credit card and car, hoping for the
best.
This state has a $.33 per gallon tax to maintain the highways. e-vehicles
are getting a free ride so to speak. The schemes to charge for miles
driven means radio collaring them, collecting the data, and then trying to collect the money.
On 2025-08-28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 10:19, Nuno Silva wrote:
This seems to really just be a made up talking point from the far-right
because they want to attack anything that they see as
environmental-friendly.
No, not because its seen as environment friendly, but because it
actually isn't. It's all part of a Great Libral Green Boondoggle where
everyone signals their virtue, and fills their boots, everything gets
more expensive and CO2 emissions keep rising, regardless
I could have worded it better because you just proved the point I wanted
to make. I meant things far-right puts under that umbrella, even if they themselves say it's not environmental-friendly. It suffices that they
see it as something they claim *someone else* is pushing because of environmental-friendliness.
It doesn't need to be considered environmental-friendly by any of the
parts.
Sorry for the bad wording.
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if, when
you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government Agency could
then compare THAT figure with what it was last service and the Vehicle
Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance traveled.
Would, sort of, work .... but how then to distinguish between Rural Road Usage, Metro Road Usage or National Highway Usage??
On 2025-08-27 14:40, Daniel70 wrote:split??
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or
do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are
different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting. Is
that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker .... or
do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
USA - and by considerable personal/professional experience -
the electric comes in as 240v/200a service ... two hot
wires and a neutral. Ground is also a wire but does not
come in from the utility, gotta drive a rod 20' into the
literal ground nearby.
Both hots to neutral = 120v
Between the hots, 240v
MOST things in US homes run on 120v. 15-20 amp breakers
on most circuits. "Large Appliances" like electric stoves
and A/C units run on 240v. Own one of those cheap welder
units, that's 240v/50a.
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
120vAC was a close aprox of the old Edison 90vDC services.
I remember a lot of "universal motors" in old appliances,
worked on 120vac or 90vdc. Put out a lot of ozone though,
really sparky armature contacts. Hey, where do you think
AC/DC got its name - a sister of one of the group saw
that on an appliance. NOT quite the same meaning it came
to have in the USA however :-)
USA, "3-phase" has THREE hot wires ... typically 230v,
240v or 480v between each, plus a neutral. Voltage to
the neutral from any hot wire is half the hot voltage.
Wired up a lot of industrial-sized panels with that.
(hey, since I was the computer/electronics guy I also
became the electric-service guy, gotta love smaller
orgs !). SOMETIMES they leave out the neutral and
ground, naught but hots, so beware.
Do NOT use 'ground' as the neutral - the quality of that
connection tends to be 'variable', 'ground' is only a
'safety' feature, not meant to channel a lot of amps.
SOME home systems, ground gets tied to neutral. NOT the
best practice IMHO, they really have somewhat different
purposes. Both 'neutral' and 'ground' are kind of RELATIVE.
'Neutral' is a center tap from a transformer, NOT always
guarenteed to be zero volts except RELATIVE to the
hot wires.
Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
thought that might be exploited somehow.
Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
On 8/27/25 5:20 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd go for electric engines and
transformers to feed these from 25 kV 50 Hz...
The batteries still just SUCK. You'll spend most
of your trip re-charging. Then they'll set your
house on fire. Also quasi-wars now over the rare
earths needed for the motors - why do you think
Trump wants Greenland ? Why China is willing to
smash the world tech economy over those minerals ?
On 8/27/25 8:46 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 5:59 am, John Ames wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of
getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clever by being obnoxious to everyone around
you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report
straight to the Soylent plant.
upwards, maybe.
Typically it literally means "upside the head" - a
blow to the general left/right side, often with a
heavy object - ball/cricket bat or similar.
Love the "Soylent Green" reference. ;-)
Too many forget Soylent Green ...
Like the prophetic "Clockwork Orange" it's too
often forgotten.
But, after AI replaces almost all, what DOES become
of the obsolete billions hmm ? :-)
"Now with SPICY SAUCE pack !" ...
Hey, just follow the logic, how it will, MUST, go.
On 28/08/2025 12:28, Daniel70 wrote:
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in
the house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets
are different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply
and 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we
also have an Earth lead as well.
That is normal for UK ex colonies etc. With 3 pin or 4 pin plugs
In practice the earth is tied to the neutral at some point.
On 8/28/25 5:26 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 03:22, c186282 wrote:
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
the batteries
It is almost impossible for that to happen.
They have pushed lithium to very close to its theoretical limits, and
its the best metal there is
Zinc, magnesium, aluminum ... POTENTIALLY far
better tech. BUT, can they get 'em off the lab
bench and into real production ? That's been
the prob for 20 years now.
On 28/08/2025 11:15, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 5:26 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 03:22, c186282 wrote:
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
the batteries
It is almost impossible for that to happen.
They have pushed lithium to very close to its theoretical limits, and
its the best metal there is
Zinc, magnesium, aluminum ... POTENTIALLY far
better tech. BUT, can they get 'em off the lab
bench and into real production ? That's been
the prob for 20 years now.
All heavier than lithium...
..do your inorganic chemistry homework...if they were so fucking great
we would all be using them already
On 28/08/2025 6:49 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:47:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if, when
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as expensive as >>> gasoline.
I have no reason to seek them out and have only seen one public charging
station at the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson TN. I've no idea what the
cost was. I think you plug in your credit card and car, hoping for the
best.
This state has a $.33 per gallon tax to maintain the highways. e-vehicles
are getting a free ride so to speak. The schemes to charge for miles
driven means radio collaring them, collecting the data, and then
trying to
collect the money.
you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government Agency could
then compare THAT figure with what it was last service and the Vehicle
Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance traveled.
Would, sort of, work .... but how then to distinguish between Rural Road Usage, Metro Road Usage or National Highway Usage??
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle, you
can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets
provide over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for
lighting. Is that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v
Mains. Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the
Cooker .... or do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run
Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
USA - and by considerable personal/professional experience - the
electric comes in as 240v/200a service ... two hot wires and a
neutral.
Ground is also a wire but does not come in from the utility,
gotta drive a rod 20' into the literal ground nearby.
Both hots to neutral = 120v
Between the hots, 240v
MOST things in US homes run on 120v. 15-20 amp breakers on most
circuits. "Large Appliances" like electric stoves and A/C units run
on 240v. Own one of those cheap welder units, that's 240v/50a.
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but beware
cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga to save a few bucks.
On the plus, 120v is less dangerous than 240v.
120vAC was a close aprox of the old Edison 90vDC services.
I remember a lot of "universal motors" in old appliances, worked on
120vac or 90vdc. Put out a lot of ozone though, really sparky
armature contacts. Hey, where do you think AC/DC got its name
- a sister of one of the group saw that on an appliance. NOT quite
the same meaning it came to have in the USA however :-)
USA, "3-phase" has THREE hot wires ... typically 230v, 240v or 480v
between each, plus a neutral. Voltage to the neutral from any hot
wire is half the hot voltage. Wired up a lot of industrial-sized
panels with that. (hey, since I was the computer/electronics guy I
also became the electric-service guy, gotta love smaller orgs !).
SOMETIMES they leave out the neutral and ground, naught but hots, so
beware.
Do NOT use 'ground' as the neutral - the quality of that connection
tends to be 'variable', 'ground' is only a 'safety' feature, not
meant to channel a lot of amps.
SOME home systems, ground gets tied to neutral. NOT the best practice
IMHO, they really have somewhat different purposes. Both 'neutral'
and 'ground' are kind of RELATIVE. 'Neutral' is a center tap from a transformer, NOT always guarenteed to be zero volts except RELATIVE
to the hot wires.
Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you only connect the
ground on ONE end because over some hundreds or thousands of feet the
value of 'ground' is DIFFERENT.
Large, albeit low voltage, currents can be obtained from separated--
grounds. Always thought that might be exploited somehow.
Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 22:46:34 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading upwards,
maybe.
Generic blow to whichever part of the head is convenient.
"Yo doan shut yo mouf Ima gonna hit you upside the haid'
On 2025-08-28 07:16, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:46 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 5:59 am, John Ames wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that
it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately
mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of >>>>>> getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clever by being obnoxious to everyone around >>>> you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and report >>>> straight to the Soylent plant.
upwards, maybe.
Typically it literally means "upside the head" - a
blow to the general left/right side, often with a
heavy object - ball/cricket bat or similar.
Love the "Soylent Green" reference. ;-)
Too many forget Soylent Green ...
I don't. Although for many years I did not know how to write it.
Like the prophetic "Clockwork Orange" it's too
often forgotten.
But, after AI replaces almost all, what DOES become
of the obsolete billions hmm ? :-)
"Now with SPICY SAUCE pack !" ...
Uuuck.
On 28/08/2025 12:28, Daniel70 wrote:
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in
the house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets
are different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply
and 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we
also have an Earth lead as well.
That is normal for UK ex colonies etc. With 3 pin or 4 pin plugs
In practice the earth is tied to the neutral at some point.
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
If your commute Mon-Fri is 20 miles in to work, 20 miles home,
that is 40*241Wh or 9.6KWh. Using an 8 hour recharge cycle,
you can put that mileage back at 1200 watts charging. Can you
manage a 115V charger at 1200 watts on a 60 amp panel ?
Here in the real world our old panels are also 60A but nominally
240v, so 1200W is no problem at all. Standard 13A outlets provide
over 3kW so no need for special wiring.
But I've read that in the USA most houses have a 230v supply for
electric cookers and the 115v supply is really only for lighting.
Is that in fact true?
You're joking, aren't you?? I had heard that US of A had 115v Mains.
Is that the case and they double the voltage to run the Cooker ....
or do they have 230v Mains and step it down to run Lighting??
In either case THAT's Weird!!
USA - and by considerable personal/professional experience -
the electric comes in as 240v/200a service ... two hot
wires and a neutral. Ground is also a wire but does not
come in from the utility, gotta drive a rod 20' into the
literal ground nearby.
Both hots to neutral = 120v
Between the hots, 240v
MOST things in US homes run on 120v. 15-20 amp breakers
on most circuits. "Large Appliances" like electric stoves
and A/C units run on 240v. Own one of those cheap welder
units, that's 240v/50a.
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
120vAC was a close aprox of the old Edison 90vDC services.
I remember a lot of "universal motors" in old appliances,
worked on 120vac or 90vdc. Put out a lot of ozone though,
really sparky armature contacts. Hey, where do you think
AC/DC got its name - a sister of one of the group saw
that on an appliance. NOT quite the same meaning it came
to have in the USA however :-)
USA, "3-phase" has THREE hot wires ... typically 230v,
240v or 480v between each, plus a neutral. Voltage to
the neutral from any hot wire is half the hot voltage.
Wired up a lot of industrial-sized panels with that.
(hey, since I was the computer/electronics guy I also
became the electric-service guy, gotta love smaller
orgs !). SOMETIMES they leave out the neutral and
ground, naught but hots, so beware.
Do NOT use 'ground' as the neutral - the quality of that
connection tends to be 'variable', 'ground' is only a
'safety' feature, not meant to channel a lot of amps.
SOME home systems, ground gets tied to neutral. NOT the
best practice IMHO, they really have somewhat different
purposes. Both 'neutral' and 'ground' are kind of RELATIVE.
'Neutral' is a center tap from a transformer, NOT always
guarenteed to be zero volts except RELATIVE to the
hot wires.
Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss connected a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny spark. Sure enough,
the printer port on the computer was fried. I measured the voltage at
the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains voltage. A subproduct of the
PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
On 2025-08-28 04:22, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 5:20 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-27, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/26/25 12:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:37:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
...
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd go for electric engines and
transformers to feed these from 25 kV 50 Hz...
The batteries still just SUCK. You'll spend most
of your trip re-charging. Then they'll set your
house on fire. Also quasi-wars now over the rare
earths needed for the motors - why do you think
Trump wants Greenland ? Why China is willing to
smash the world tech economy over those minerals ?
Depends on your distances.
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
There are truckers in the EU with battery powered trucks, and they make
do just fine.
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells
the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!!
Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!! >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
On 28/08/2025 9:35 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 12:28, Daniel70 wrote:
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in
the house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets
are different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street
giving 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial
supply and 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral.
Then we also have an Earth lead as well.
That is normal for UK ex colonies etc. With 3 pin or 4 pin plugs
In practice the earth is tied to the neutral at some point.
SSSSSHHH!! Nobodies supposed to know that, are they??
(Usually the main Power Fuse board, I think)
On 2025-08-28 13:16, Daniel70 wrote:
On 28/08/2025 6:49 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:47:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as
expensive as
gasoline.
I have no reason to seek them out and have only seen one public charging >>> station at the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson TN. I've no idea what the
cost was. I think you plug in your credit card and car, hoping for the
best.
This state has a $.33 per gallon tax to maintain the highways.
e-vehicles
are getting a free ride so to speak. The schemes to charge for miles
driven means radio collaring them, collecting the data, and then
trying to
collect the money.
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the
State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government
Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was last service
and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance
traveled.
Would, sort of, work .... but how then to distinguish between Rural
Road Usage, Metro Road Usage or National Highway Usage??
With a GPS.
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
On 28/08/2025 9:35 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 12:28, Daniel70 wrote:
split??
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in
the house are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets
are different and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street
giving 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial
supply and 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral.
Then we also have an Earth lead as well.
That is normal for UK ex colonies etc. With 3 pin or 4 pin plugs
In practice the earth is tied to the neutral at some point.
SSSSSHHH!! Nobodies supposed to know that, are they??
(Usually the main Power Fuse board, I think)
On 8/28/25 7:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 11:15, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 5:26 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 03:22, c186282 wrote:
IF there's an order of magnitude improvement in
the batteries
It is almost impossible for that to happen.
They have pushed lithium to very close to its theoretical limits,
and its the best metal there is
Zinc, magnesium, aluminum ... POTENTIALLY far
better tech. BUT, can they get 'em off the lab
bench and into real production ? That's been
the prob for 20 years now.
All heavier than lithium...
..do your inorganic chemistry homework...if they were so fucking great
we would all be using them already
Don't think the weight is the big factor here, if
"better" you could have FEWER - same or less weight.
The problems mostly seem to revolve around the chemistry
and electrode erosion. SOME recent reports say that may
have been fixed. However, as said, "lab bench" results
do NOT necessarily equate to "production line". THAT
has been a repeating story for 20+ years.
On 28/08/2025 9:38 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 07:16, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:46 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 5:59 am, John Ames wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 19:40:31 +0100"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah Rollin' Coal. A Redneck finger to Libral environmentalists.You know the kind: the huge pickup truck - usually black but
sometimes white - which is immaculate. Not a single sign that >>>>>>>> it's ever been off road or hauled a work load.
Ohhh yes. Extra points if it's a diesel that's been deliberately >>>>>>> mis- tuned to belch smoke upon everybody who has the misfortune of >>>>>>> getting stuck in traffic with the choad at the wheel.
I somewhat sympathise
If you think you're being clever by being obnoxious to everyone around >>>>> you, you deserve a slap upside the head. And if you think you're
proving some kind of idiot point by driving with a shittily-tuned
engine, you really ought to do the rest of the world a favor and
report
straight to the Soylent plant.
upwards, maybe.
Typically it literally means "upside the head" - a
blow to the general left/right side, often with a
heavy object - ball/cricket bat or similar.
Love the "Soylent Green" reference. ;-)
Too many forget Soylent Green ...
I don't. Although for many years I did not know how to write it.
Like the prophetic "Clockwork Orange" it's too
often forgotten.
But, after AI replaces almost all, what DOES become
of the obsolete billions hmm ? :-)
"Now with SPICY SAUCE pack !" ...
Uuuck.
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells
the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!!
Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of water
and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the spike and surrounding Ground.
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if, when
you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government Agency could
then compare THAT figure with what it was last service and the Vehicle
Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance traveled.
On 28/08/2025 6:57 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 22:46:34 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:Is that Rocky talking now?? ;-P
"upside the head"?? What's that mean?? Hitting the Jaw heading
upwards,
maybe.
Generic blow to whichever part of the head is convenient.
"Yo doan shut yo mouf Ima gonna hit you upside the haid'
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
On 8/28/25 8:25 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 13:16, Daniel70 wrote:
On 28/08/2025 6:49 am, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:47:24 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
Around here, I read that public charging turns out to be as
expensive as
gasoline.
I have no reason to seek them out and have only seen one public
charging
station at the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson TN. I've no idea what the >>>> cost was. I think you plug in your credit card and car, hoping for the >>>> best.
This state has a $.33 per gallon tax to maintain the highways. e-
vehicles
are getting a free ride so to speak. The schemes to charge for miles
driven means radio collaring them, collecting the data, and then
trying to
collect the money.
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the
State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The
Government Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was
last service and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based
on Distance traveled.
Would, sort of, work .... but how then to distinguish between Rural
Road Usage, Metro Road Usage or National Highway Usage??
With a GPS.
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
How Orwellian !
Buy an antique car or build yourself a custom !
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat belts, airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
envelopes full of cash too.
My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
and did live there for a few years.
Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-
speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables
without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss connected
a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny spark. Sure
enough, the printer port on the computer was fried. I measured the
voltage at the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains voltage. A
subproduct of the PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
Differing ground potential IS an issue - esp with
communication circuits. Can burn those tiny wires.
Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
Got a copy of "Ugly's" ? :-)
There are a few other good field guides, but
DO love the name "Ugly's".
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you better have a map and plan accordingly.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you better have a map and plan accordingly.
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat belts, >> airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to easy 7 >> year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've paid for it. >>
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They keep
starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000€ in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've
paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They
keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be
writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000€ in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage tosplit??
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up after
some years.
That is a good long drive and with the meal break, a safer one.On
motorcycle BMW 1972 R75 I used to drive with a stop for gas
on the same route in about the same time, a day's trip. Had to give up
that from my fatigue syndrome as pain in my right arm from throttle
twisting was too much.
On 2025-08-28 21:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second
largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as
Spain but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there
are a little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a
feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you
better have a map and plan accordingly.
Sure, I know that :-)
So what works here will not work over there.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and Earth
doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric car and tries
charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:33:15 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 21:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km. >>>> That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second
largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as
Spain but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there
are a little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a
feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you
better have a map and plan accordingly.
Sure, I know that :-)
So what works here will not work over there.
There is a problem in the US that might also occur in Australia and
Canada. Obviously a stereotype but the people pushing for EVs tend to live
in the heavily populated strips along the east and west coasts. They refer
to the 2500 miles or so in between as 'flyover country'. If they see it at all it's because they flew in to visit Yellowstone and pet a buffalo.
Okay, a bison, but the idiots do try to pet them. This ain't Disney Land.
The phenomenon applies to a lot more than EVs.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:17:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least >>>> warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've
paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They
keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be
writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000€ in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
A cash withdrawal over $10,000 gets scrutiny in the US. I was using cash
as opposed to credit in this case. The largest US bill is $100 so even $10,000 would be quite a wad. I think a car salesman would have a heart attack confronted with US currency and have visions of 'Breaking Bad'.
There was a $500 bill at one time but it was discontinued. They were still around in the '60s but the banks had to take them out of circulation if
they showed up. There has been talk of bringing them back. $100 doesn't go very far these days. I use real cash for day to day transactions, usually $20s since that's what the ATM spits out but I usually have a few $100
bills. Most places take them as a matter of course.
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still illegal
on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Some cannabis dispensaries in California take plastic. I don'tknow the
exact details since as you do I use cash for the cannabis I consume.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least
warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat belts, airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for the density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you better have a map and plan accordingly.
There is a problem in the US that might also occur in Australia and
Canada. Obviously a stereotype but the people pushing for EVs tend to live
in the heavily populated strips along the east and west coasts.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you better >have a map and plan accordingly.
The Plan had better include the TOWING FEES for when
you don't QUITE make it to the next charging station.
Oh, as slow as many EVs charge ... figure in extra
hotel stays.
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Ironically if anything was going to blow the place up due to a leak it
would be the acetylene.
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences still have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
Too many forget Soylent Green ...
Like the prophetic "Clockwork Orange" it's too
often forgotten.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 15:08:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I really doubt it is a contest. The contest is to get rid of
pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer. Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere. Our gas in California
is taxed as well. A problem with electrically powered vehicles not
using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which
are derived from the Gas taxes.
There is another solution but it isn't very popular. If I remember my
grade school statistics correctly the US population was about 160 million
in the '50s. It's now more than 341 million. It may be the nostalgia of
old age but I remember things being a hell of a lot better before the population doubled.
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up after
some years.
My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some points
when they go into some device.
...
Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-
speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables
without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss connected
a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny spark. Sure
enough, the printer port on the computer was fried. I measured the
voltage at the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains voltage. A
subproduct of the PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
Differing ground potential IS an issue - esp with
communication circuits. Can burn those tiny wires.
Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
Got a copy of "Ugly's" ? :-)
Oops, I was smiling at the previous sentence actually :-)
There are a few other good field guides, but
DO love the name "Ugly's".
On 8/28/25 12:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second
largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for
the
density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you
better
have a map and plan accordingly.
I have a very well off friend who owns a home in San Francisco and who
drives a Tesla to visit his sister in Los Angeles and he make it there
with a meal
break while the car is brought up to a higher rate of charge. He takes
along
friends and relatives of them both. He bought the Tesla before Elmo's insanity was manifested in the 2023 campaign for Trump.
That is a good long drive and with the meal break, a safer one.
On a motorcycle BMW 1972 R75 I used to drive with a stop for gas
on the same route in about the same time, a day's trip. Had to give up
that from my fatigue syndrome as pain in my right arm from throttle
twisting was too much.
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of water >>> and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the spike and
surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
I heard a story (possibly an urban legend) about a dog that would
bark before the telephone rang. It turns out its leash was attached
to a ground wire, and when it was dry the 90-volt pulses on the phone
line would give him a shock that made him both bark and pee. The
urine enabled the phone circuit to complete and the call went through.
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but we >> needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the
premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
Ironically if anything was going to blow the place up due to a leak it
would be the acetylene.
The problem for straight electric is charging. Many older residences still >> have 60A panels and bringing them up to modern standards would be very
expensive. Then there are the renters or even single family homes that
only have on street parking.
"Let them eat cake."
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
The Plan had better include the TOWING FEES for when
you don't QUITE make it to the next charging station.
Oh, as slow as many EVs charge ... figure in extra
hotel stays.
In Germany, you would be the prototype of what we call
"Diesel-Dieter". Judging by the amount of insane drivel you write when on-topic, I am not surprised.
They keepCheck?
starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
Obviously a stereotype but the people pushing for EVs tend to live
in the heavily populated strips along the east and west coasts. They refer
to the 2500 miles or so in between as 'flyover country'.
Acetylene is NEVER quite 'stable'.
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage tosplit??
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house >>> are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
On 29 Aug 2025 08:52:38 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:Got to agree, and yet, as Galileo said, "It works".
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and Earth
doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do wonder what
would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric car and tries
charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to pump through the
ground, and if the voltage drops would it all start oscillating as the
charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
The 'roos toes will be tingling. I can understand the cost benefits but I shudder at basing the scheme on soil conductivity unless you live in a
swamp.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of water
and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the spike and
surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage tosplit??
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the house >>> are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:16:31 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if, when
you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle maintained, the
maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the State/Federal
Government a document stating the Milage. The Government Agency could
then compare THAT figure with what it was last service and the Vehicle
Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance traveled.
It wouldn't work for people like myself. I am the maintaining agent. The
only exception I can think of was bringing the Toyota in for the airbag recall in 2020 after many nagging postcards. That wound up costing me
money since I saw a leftover 2018 on the lot and knew that was the last
year for the Toyota Yaris in the US. They were sick of looking at it and
were willing to deal, even overlooking the bodywork by deer on the trade
in.
Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells
the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!!
Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
Don't know anything about Red Dwarf, but that schtick comes from
Douglas Adam's book "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe", part
of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" series. Hysterical!
On 2025-08-28 21:03, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 13:36:14 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There are many cars that claim to have batteries that last over 500Km.
That is enough to cross my country from the capital city to anywhere.
You can charge, to be sure, at mid trip when stopping for coffee.
It's 555 km from the largest city in this state (121,483) to the second
largest (78,204). The state (380,800 km2) isn't quite as large as Spain
but there are 49 more where that came from. More important there are a
little over 1 million people, not 49 million so you can get a feel for
the
density.
I assume there are charging stations between here and there but you
better
have a map and plan accordingly.
Sure, I know that :-)
So what works here will not work over there.
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:Probably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric car
On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage tosplit??
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for >>>> big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different >>>> and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in rural Australia.
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keepCheck?
starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be writing
a check.
What's a check?
On 29/08/2025 8:14 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:WHAT?? Another "Rural Australian"!! Or do you also go by the Nym
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>> On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:Probably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house
for
big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are
different
and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets >>>> split??
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving >>>> 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and >>>> 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also >>>> have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
car in rural Australia.
"Computer Nerd Kev"??
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 15:08:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I really doubt it is a contest. The contest is to get rid of
pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer. Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere. Our gas in California >>> is taxed as well. A problem with electrically powered vehicles not
using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which
are derived from the Gas taxes.
There is another solution but it isn't very popular. If I remember my
grade school statistics correctly the US population was about 160 million
in the '50s. It's now more than 341 million. It may be the nostalgia of
old age but I remember things being a hell of a lot better before the
population doubled.
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth. (See my .sig.) That's why I don't get too excited
about conservation: cut your consumption and/or emissions in half
while doubling population, and you're right back where you started.
Remember, the planet doesn't care about per-capita consumption,
only total consumption.
So buckle up, folks - we're in for a wild ride.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:27:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is a
possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up after
some years.
A soldered connection in residential wiring would be rare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector
Applications where there is vibration would use insulated butt connectors although the crimpless type are popular. They use a low melting point
alloy so its more or less back to a soldered connection.
https://powerwerx.com/heat-shrink-solder-sleeve-crimpless-connectors
For large industrial transformers or motors I used crimped ring tongue terminals. Those were fastened together with a screw and nut, wrapped with rubber tape, and then with vinyl electrical tape for abrasion resistance. Overkill but you really didn't want sparks from a 460 VAC junction box.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:17:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at least >>>> warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future feature is
that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've
paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They
keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll be
writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000€ in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
A cash withdrawal over $10,000 gets scrutiny in the US. I was using cash
as opposed to credit in this case. The largest US bill is $100 so even $10,000 would be quite a wad. I think a car salesman would have a heart attack confronted with US currency and have visions of 'Breaking Bad'.
There was a $500 bill at one time but it was discontinued. They were still around in the '60s but the banks had to take them out of circulation if
they showed up. There has been talk of bringing them back. $100 doesn't go very far these days. I use real cash for day to day transactions, usually $20s since that's what the ATM spits out but I usually have a few $100
bills. Most places take them as a matter of course.
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still illegal
on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Just chanced on an article here that is related. I mentioned somewhere
that public electric chargers are charging (in the bill) way too much.
<https://www.hibridosyelectricos.com/camiones/pesan-mas-40-toneladas-pero-ceo-man-tiene-claro-camion-electrico-se-amortiza-en-dos-anos-medio_81949_102.html>
They weigh more than 40 tonnes, but MAN's CEO is clear: ‘An electric
lorry pays for itself in two and a half years.’
The executive is calling for political action to sustain
electromobility. The aim is to set an industrial price for electricity
for transport that places the kWh between €0.20 and €0.30 (compared to the usual €0.45–0.50 at public charging points). With this
combination, he argues that electric trucks ‘pay for themselves in
2.5–3 years’ compared to equivalent diesel trucks. In buses, MAN is already in a different league: more than 2,500 electric city buses are
in operation in Europe, covering more than 100 million kilometres.
On 29/08/2025 8:14 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:WHAT?? Another "Rural Australian"!! Or do you also go by the Nym
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>> On 28/08/2025 12:20 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:Probably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric car
They use step down transformers from the distribution voltage to
secondaries with a connection in the middle:
115 \/\/\ /\/\/ 115
|
0
Ie, two opposite 115 volts lines. So yes, there is 230 in the house for >>>>> big appliances, like the cooker or the laundry. All sockets in the
house
are 115, from one or the other line. The 230 volt sockets are different >>>>> and only in the rooms for those appliances.
Ah!! So does each House/Building get a 230V Mains feed .... that gets >>>> split??
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving >>>> 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and >>>> 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also >>>> have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in rural Australia.
"Computer Nerd Kev"??
--
Daniel70
On 8/28/25 3:27 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
There are two enemies of electrical connections ... oxidation
and the tendency of copper to keep compressing under load.
Either can lead to overheating/fire eventually.
Had an odd problem in an out-building. The lights would
come on BUT if you flipped on the little welder unit
everything would go black. An electrician finally found
that the 40 year old connection to the out-building in
the main panel had 'compressed' and was nearly just LOOSE.
A quick re-tighten fixed all ... but that sort of thing
CAN sneak up on you.
Worst problem ever, USA, was when aluminum electrical
wire was first introduced. Especially in coastal areas
the stuff would corrode - every plug socket. Five or
ten years and the flames would start.
Soldered connections, they just don't DO that anymore.
It's twist (maybe) and one of those screw-over caps.
NOT really good. Short-term cheap, longer-term DOOM.
My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some points
when they go into some device.
Then you're in luck !
Really DO want those soldered connections esp for stuff
in the ceiling and walls where you can't see or get to it.
Otherwise ... do you REALLY want connections in the attic
getting red hot ? Breakers/fuses won't SEE that.
But, they don't DO that anymore.
The guy who built his/my house had access to true 50s
'industrial' Romex. Insulated wires, HEAVY outer cover
plus HEAVY fiberglas-reinforced 2nd jacket. Should be
used everywhere IMHO, but, of course, they won't.
...
Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-
speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables
without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss
connected a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny
spark. Sure enough, the printer port on the computer was fried. I
measured the voltage at the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains
voltage. A subproduct of the PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
Differing ground potential IS an issue - esp with
communication circuits. Can burn those tiny wires.
Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
Got a copy of "Ugly's" ? :-)
Oops, I was smiling at the previous sentence actually :-)
The 45 years ??? Hey, they DID pay me for this stuff.
Dad was a master electrician, industrial/mil. Sometimes
I paid attention.
My fave was 50-100hp pump control panels. You could
wait three months, pay $9000, OR build them yourself
from parts on Grainger/McMasters. 3-phase main breaker
feeds phase/voltage monitor which feeds restart delay
timer which feeds the actual motor-starter. Fuses in
between each stage. Not too difficult. In case of
a power blink you do NOT want a large pump immediately
restarting because there'll be a back-surge - and you
will either shear off your impeller or overload the
motor or both. A simple 60sec delay timer fixes that.
Reversible pumps double the complexity, but not the
logic. Never had complaints from any 'real' electricians
who came along after.
Anyway, you could build them in a day for WAY WAY
less than $9000.
Also interesting are '3-phase converters' - 1ph to 3ph.
MOST of them are CRAP, really NO power to the 3rd leg
except right at start-up to get it going in the right
direction. Can't always get 3-ph alas but you NEED it
to run larger motors.
"Rotary" converters work well - BUT if in like a
sea-side environment they'll CORRODE. "Static" is
best there. Strongly rec "RONK" static converters.
You DO have to "tune them in" - adjust transformer
and cap-bank jumpers - but if you do it right you
can get almost perfect power on all 3 phases.
DO remember the 'yellow wire' ... important :-)
There are a few other good field guides, but
DO love the name "Ugly's".
On 2025-08-29 08:50, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 15:08:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I really doubt it is a contest. The contest is to get rid of >>>> pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the
future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer. Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the
amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere. Our gas in
California
is taxed as well. A problem with electrically powered vehicles not
using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which
are derived from the Gas taxes.
There is another solution but it isn't very popular. If I remember my
grade school statistics correctly the US population was about 160
million
in the '50s. It's now more than 341 million. It may be the nostalgia of
old age but I remember things being a hell of a lot better before the
population doubled.
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth. (See my .sig.) That's why I don't get too excited
about conservation: cut your consumption and/or emissions in half
while doubling population, and you're right back where you started.
Remember, the planet doesn't care about per-capita consumption,
only total consumption.
So buckle up, folks - we're in for a wild ride.
Nobody seems to aim for a stable, non growth, population. :-(
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:27:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is a
possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up after
some years.
A soldered connection in residential wiring would be rare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector
Applications where there is vibration would use insulated butt connectors although the crimpless type are popular. They use a low melting point
alloy so its more or less back to a soldered connection.
https://powerwerx.com/heat-shrink-solder-sleeve-crimpless-connectors
For large industrial transformers or motors I used crimped ring tongue terminals. Those were fastened together with a screw and nut, wrapped with rubber tape, and then with vinyl electrical tape for abrasion resistance. Overkill but you really didn't want sparks from a 460 VAC junction box.
On 2025-08-29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Just chanced on an article here that is related. I mentioned somewhere
that public electric chargers are charging (in the bill) way too much.
<https://www.hibridosyelectricos.com/camiones/pesan-mas-40-toneladas-pero-ceo-man-tiene-claro-camion-electrico-se-amortiza-en-dos-anos-medio_81949_102.html>
They weigh more than 40 tonnes, but MAN's CEO is clear: ‘An electric
lorry pays for itself in two and a half years.’
The executive is calling for political action to sustain
electromobility. The aim is to set an industrial price for electricity
for transport that places the kWh between €0.20 and €0.30 (compared to >> the usual €0.45–0.50 at public charging points). With this
Are these prices the exact ones that are effectively paid or have these
been adapted to be comparable? Or is this fully VAT-exempt for everyone?
On 2025-08-29 09:13, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 3:27 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
There are two enemies of electrical connections ... oxidation
and the tendency of copper to keep compressing under load.
Either can lead to overheating/fire eventually.
Had an odd problem in an out-building. The lights would
come on BUT if you flipped on the little welder unit
everything would go black. An electrician finally found
that the 40 year old connection to the out-building in
the main panel had 'compressed' and was nearly just LOOSE.
A quick re-tighten fixed all ... but that sort of thing
CAN sneak up on you.
Worst problem ever, USA, was when aluminum electrical
wire was first introduced. Especially in coastal areas
the stuff would corrode - every plug socket. Five or
ten years and the flames would start.
Soldered connections, they just don't DO that anymore.
It's twist (maybe) and one of those screw-over caps.
NOT really good. Short-term cheap, longer-term DOOM.
My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some
points when they go into some device.
Then you're in luck !
Really DO want those soldered connections esp for stuff
in the ceiling and walls where you can't see or get to it.
Otherwise ... do you REALLY want connections in the attic
getting red hot ? Breakers/fuses won't SEE that.
But, they don't DO that anymore.
The guy who built his/my house had access to true 50s
'industrial' Romex. Insulated wires, HEAVY outer cover
plus HEAVY fiberglas-reinforced 2nd jacket. Should be
used everywhere IMHO, but, of course, they won't.
...
Oh, for DATA wiring - like RS-485 and friends - you
only connect the ground on ONE end because over some
hundreds or thousands of feet the value of 'ground'
is DIFFERENT. Large, albeit low voltage, currents
can be obtained from separated grounds. Always
thought that might be exploited somehow.
Oh, I know that one, learned early. I did that trick on the loud-
speaker system of a student venue. I managed long microphone cables
without hum.
On my first job, I experienced a related one. Me or my boss
connected a printer (parallel cable) to a computer, saw a tiny
spark. Sure enough, the printer port on the computer was fried. I
measured the voltage at the computer chasis: 110ac, half the mains
voltage. A subproduct of the PSU filtering.
The computer was not grounded. Taught my boss the importance of
grounding the computers from then on.
Differing ground potential IS an issue - esp with
communication circuits. Can burn those tiny wires.
Anyway, that's my 45+ years of paycheck experience.
Suggest "Ugly's" handbook for the short and sweet.
:-)
Got a copy of "Ugly's" ? :-)
Oops, I was smiling at the previous sentence actually :-)
The 45 years ??? Hey, they DID pay me for this stuff.
Dad was a master electrician, industrial/mil. Sometimes
I paid attention.
My fave was 50-100hp pump control panels. You could
wait three months, pay $9000, OR build them yourself
from parts on Grainger/McMasters. 3-phase main breaker
feeds phase/voltage monitor which feeds restart delay
timer which feeds the actual motor-starter. Fuses in
between each stage. Not too difficult. In case of
a power blink you do NOT want a large pump immediately
restarting because there'll be a back-surge - and you
will either shear off your impeller or overload the
motor or both. A simple 60sec delay timer fixes that.
Reversible pumps double the complexity, but not the
logic. Never had complaints from any 'real' electricians
who came along after.
Anyway, you could build them in a day for WAY WAY
less than $9000.
Also interesting are '3-phase converters' - 1ph to 3ph.
MOST of them are CRAP, really NO power to the 3rd leg
except right at start-up to get it going in the right
direction. Can't always get 3-ph alas but you NEED it
to run larger motors.
I did not know that. In the 90's we used inverters to drive three phased motors, some quite big, and it was actually three phases. And some were
"four quadrants", meaning you could use it as a brake and feed
electricity to the network. Sometimes we used DC motors.
My boss said that for small powers it was better three phase motor and inverters and for big powers DC was better (aka cheaper). Or the other
way round, I don't remember.
Now days my AC says it is inverter driven. All I know is that it runs
very smooth, I have seen the compressor draw under 200Watts when the
temp is stable at night. My fridge is also inverter driven.
"Rotary" converters work well - BUT if in like a
sea-side environment they'll CORRODE. "Static" is
best there. Strongly rec "RONK" static converters.
You DO have to "tune them in" - adjust transformer
and cap-bank jumpers - but if you do it right you
can get almost perfect power on all 3 phases.
DO remember the 'yellow wire' ... important :-)
There are a few other good field guides, but
DO love the name "Ugly's".
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
In other words, the state picks Smith's pocket and gives the money to
Jones to promote their vision. No surprise, since that's how government
works in all cases.
A government that robs Peter to pay Paul
can always depend on the support of Paul.
-- George Bernard Shaw
Nobody seems to aim for a stable, non growth, population. :-(
I have never seen these. How do you use them? Solder in the centre? But
the plastic either melts or shrinks, no?
Nobody seems to aim for a stable, non growth, population. 🙁
Not SURE you can make an economy with "stable", much
less "shrinking". Doesn't matter which -ism you're
into.
I did not know that. In the 90's we used inverters to drive three phased motors, some quite big, and it was actually three phases. And some were
"four quadrants", meaning you could use it as a brake and feed
electricity to the network. Sometimes we used DC motors.
My boss said that for small powers it was better three phase motor and inverters and for big powers DC was better (aka cheaper). Or the other
way round, I don't remember.
Now days my AC says it is inverter driven. All I know is that it runs
very smooth, I have seen the compressor draw under 200Watts when the
temp is stable at night. My fridge is also inverter driven.
On 2025-08-29 01:13, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:27:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
A soldered connection in residential wiring would be rare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector
Applications where there is vibration would use insulated butt
connectors although the crimpless type are popular. They use a low
melting point alloy so its more or less back to a soldered connection.
https://powerwerx.com/heat-shrink-solder-sleeve-crimpless-connectors
I have never seen these. How do you use them? Solder in the centre? But
the plastic either melts or shrinks, no?
Why do Poor Peters vote for Rich Idiot Donald?Because he is more amusing than Rich Biden/Hillary ...
Depends on what you mean by "inverter". There are now
all-electronic units that will make 3ph out of single.
A bit pricey but relatively small and reliable. Most
want the input voltage to be twice the output voltage.
Most will do 'soft starts' also - which can be good
if you need to get a big mass moving rather than
just 'snap' start everything. The 'snap' can sometimes
include drive belts or even shafts 🙂
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but
we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on
the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit with 60
amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
By contrast, oxygen in cylinders for welding applications is stored at a
very high pressure, typically 2000 psi. It is this storage pressure
which makes it dangerous: if the container is damaged it can explode violently. A cylinder falling over can strike the control valve on an obstruction which breaks it off; the cylinder itself is then fired off
like a rocket! I heard of one incidence comparing the damage to the
storage facility as comparable with that caused by a 16-inch shell.
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On Duty"!!
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of
water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
On 29/08/2025 4:45 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:16:31 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:"bodywork by deer".... I like the idea!
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the
State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government
Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was last service
and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance
traveled.
It wouldn't work for people like myself. I am the maintaining agent.
The only exception I can think of was bringing the Toyota in for the
airbag recall in 2020 after many nagging postcards. That wound up
costing me money since I saw a leftover 2018 on the lot and knew that
was the last year for the Toyota Yaris in the US. They were sick of
looking at it and were willing to deal, even overlooking the bodywork
by deer on the trade in.
Does that put it in the "Super-modified" category??
Yep - DOES confuse them. I think the dealers get a kick-back from the
finance entity as well.
If at ALL possible, NEVER finance a vehicle. You'll spend two, three,
maybe four times as much for it over time. A Corolla isn't worth
$150,000.
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of
water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
I heard a story (possibly an urban legend) about a dog that would bark
before the telephone rang. It turns out its leash was attached to a
ground wire, and when it was dry the 90-volt pulses on the phone line
would give him a shock that made him both bark and pee. The urine
enabled the phone circuit to complete and the call went through.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
However standard crimp connectors, wire nuts, and the push in connections used with solid wire use no solder at all.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:54 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but
we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on
the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
Ah yes... The designers of the Hindenburg were well aware of the dangers
of hydrogen but the US had cornered the market on helium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925
Now extra-dry soil, not sure HOW you get a proper ground.
There's an area near my town that's essentially a sand dune - gotta
put a water well down nearly 100' to get anything. It'd also be so
with a ground rod.
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:17:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at
least warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future
feature is that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've
paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They
keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll
be writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000€ in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
A cash withdrawal over $10,000 gets scrutiny in the US. I was using
cash as opposed to credit in this case. The largest US bill is $100 so
even $10,000 would be quite a wad. I think a car salesman would have a
heart attack confronted with US currency and have visions of 'Breaking
Bad'.
There was a $500 bill at one time but it was discontinued. They were
still around in the '60s but the banks had to take them out of
circulation if they showed up. There has been talk of bringing them
back. $100 doesn't go very far these days. I use real cash for day to
day transactions, usually $20s since that's what the ATM spits out but
I usually have a few $100 bills. Most places take them as a matter of
course.
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
(See my .sig.) That's why I don't get too excited--
about conservation: cut your consumption and/or emissions in half
while doubling population, and you're right back where you started.
Remember, the planet doesn't care about per-capita consumption,
only total consumption.
So buckle up, folks - we're in for a wild ride.
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
On 8/29/25 11:19, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:54 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents but >>>> we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on
the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
Ah yes... The designers of the Hindenburg were well aware of the dangers >> of hydrogen but the US had cornered the market on helium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925
If you check the records it was not the hydrogen on the Hindenbery that
was the problem but the doped fabric of the airship that was the cause of
the horrific disaster.
bliss
On 8/29/25 8:55 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 08:50, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 15:08:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
I really doubt it is a contest. The contest is to get rid of >>>>> pollution
by fossil fuels and we all have to do that or we will smother in the >>>>> future.
I won't though because at 88 I don't expect to be around that much
longer. Everyday some optimistic news comes out about reducing the >>>>> amount of heat retaining gases in the atmosphere. Our gas in
California
is taxed as well. A problem with electrically powered vehicles not >>>>> using gasoline is replacing the taxes used for road maintenance which >>>>> are derived from the Gas taxes.
There is another solution but it isn't very popular. If I remember my
grade school statistics correctly the US population was about 160
million
in the '50s. It's now more than 341 million. It may be the nostalgia of >>>> old age but I remember things being a hell of a lot better before the
population doubled.
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth. (See my .sig.) That's why I don't get too excited
about conservation: cut your consumption and/or emissions in half
while doubling population, and you're right back where you started.
Remember, the planet doesn't care about per-capita consumption,
only total consumption.
So buckle up, folks - we're in for a wild ride.
Nobody seems to aim for a stable, non growth, population. :-(
Not SURE you can make an economy with "stable", much
less "shrinking". Doesn't matter which -ism you're
into.
Western civ and friends, we're into 'shrinking' now -
like half the replacement rate or even worse in Japan
and S.Korea.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 15:06:42 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 01:13, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:27:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
A soldered connection in residential wiring would be rare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector
Applications where there is vibration would use insulated butt
connectors although the crimpless type are popular. They use a low
melting point alloy so its more or less back to a soldered connection.
https://powerwerx.com/heat-shrink-solder-sleeve-crimpless-connectors
I have never seen these. How do you use them? Solder in the centre? But
the plastic either melts or shrinks, no?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unxEdyW8RP8
The shrinking is part of the design. He uses a heat gun but in the field without electricity a butane micro torch works well. You just need a deft touch. A BIC lighter works too in a pinch but the metal part gets pretty
hot.
Whether flooding the join with solder is better is a good question.
However standard crimp connectors, wire nuts, and the push in connections used with solid wire use no solder at all.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:17:51 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 14:25:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
In the EU all new cars have a GPS, because it is mandatory to at
least warn the driver that they are speeding. A possibly future
feature is that the car will refuse to speed.
I don't think the US has gotten to mandatory yet for GPS, just seat
belts,
airbags, backup cameras, yadayada. No problem, they've also went to
easy 7 year payment plans. Of course you're underwater before you've >>>>> paid for it.
I pay cash for my vehicles which usually confuses the salesman. They >>>>> keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told them you'll
be writing a check.
It is forbidden to pay more than 1000€ in cash in Spain :-p
(a check is not cash, the bank intervenes, there is a paper trail)
A cash withdrawal over $10,000 gets scrutiny in the US. I was using
cash as opposed to credit in this case. The largest US bill is $100 so
even $10,000 would be quite a wad. I think a car salesman would have a
heart attack confronted with US currency and have visions of 'Breaking
Bad'.
There was a $500 bill at one time but it was discontinued. They were
still around in the '60s but the banks had to take them out of
circulation if they showed up. There has been talk of bringing them
back. $100 doesn't go very far these days. I use real cash for day to
day transactions, usually $20s since that's what the ATM spits out but
I usually have a few $100 bills. Most places take them as a matter of
course.
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot of cash in hand.
It's a very strange situation that the Feds have been trying to ignore.
Too many states have legalized marijuana, either medical or recreational, that a crack down might start a states rights war.
Then there is the tax. In this state recreational is 22% tax. If the
person has a medical card the tax is much less but it is revenue.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On Duty"!!
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of
water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-piss-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary arrangements
and the ground rods.
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 8/29/25 9:16 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 09:13, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 3:27 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
Anyway, you could build them in a day for WAY WAY
less than $9000.
Also interesting are '3-phase converters' - 1ph to 3ph.
MOST of them are CRAP, really NO power to the 3rd leg
except right at start-up to get it going in the right
direction. Can't always get 3-ph alas but you NEED it
to run larger motors.
I did not know that. In the 90's we used inverters to drive three
phased motors, some quite big, and it was actually three phases. And
some were "four quadrants", meaning you could use it as a brake and
feed electricity to the network. Sometimes we used DC motors.
My boss said that for small powers it was better three phase motor and
inverters and for big powers DC was better (aka cheaper). Or the other
way round, I don't remember.
Now days my AC says it is inverter driven. All I know is that it runs
very smooth, I have seen the compressor draw under 200Watts when the
temp is stable at night. My fridge is also inverter driven.
Depends on what you mean by "inverter". There are now
all-electronic units that will make 3ph out of single.
A bit pricey but relatively small and reliable. Most
want the input voltage to be twice the output voltage.
Most will do 'soft starts' also - which can be good
if you need to get a big mass moving rather than
just 'snap' start everything. The 'snap' can sometimes
include drive belts or even shafts :-)
A proper "static inverter" has a big transformer and a
bank of caps. Between those you can create a fairly well
timed 3rd phase.
DID price out DC motors once ... for 20hp or more
they were more expensive and you also had to buy
an AC->DC rectifier unit. Easier to fine-control
There's also a funky new kind of motor called
"written pole". Didn't look into them too much,
the price was like double and 20hp was the largest
size I saw.
SOUNDS like your fridge actually uses a DC motor,
so the "inverter" is a rectifier unit, possibly
capable of PWM.
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly we
were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we found out
about the Rule of 78s.
c186282 wrote:
[snip]
Acetylene is NEVER quite 'stable'.
For transport, acetylene is normally dissolved in a solvent, either
acetone or N,N-dimethylformamide (DMF). It's only held at a moderate pressure, probably no more than 275 psi. (A car tyre might be 30 to 50
psi.)
By contrast, oxygen in cylinders for welding applications is stored at a
very high pressure, typically 2000 psi. It is this storage pressure
which makes it dangerous: if the container is damaged it can explode violently. A cylinder falling over can strike the control valve on an obstruction which breaks it off; the cylinder itself is then fired off
like a rocket! I heard of one incidence comparing the damage to the
storage facility as comparable with that caused by a 16-inch shell.
On 29/08/2025 12:06 am, Tim Slattery wrote:
Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells
the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!!
Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
Don't know anything about Red Dwarf, but that schtick comes from
Douglas Adam's book "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe", part
of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" series. Hysterical!
Ofcourse it does!! Why the hell did I suggest "Red Dwarf" but then
mention "Restaurant at the end of the Universe".
Book Three of the Six Book Trilogy, I think.
On 29/08/2025 00:56, rbowman wrote:
On 29 Aug 2025 08:52:38 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:Got to agree, and yet, as Galileo said, "It works".
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and Earth
doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do wonder what
would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric car and tries
charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to pump through the
ground, and if the voltage drops would it all start oscillating as the
charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
The 'roos toes will be tingling. I can understand the cost benefits but I
shudder at basing the scheme on soil conductivity unless you live in a
swamp.
Not sure if they use that ground for the low voltage circuit though
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole andProbably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric car
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in rural Australia.
On 29/08/2025 8:52 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! Where
Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving
415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and
240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also
have an Earth lead as well.
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly we
were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we found out
about the Rule of 78s.
We bought our Honda CR-V on a lease-to-own plan.
Looking back on it we realized we had been screwed.
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of
water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-piss-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with a sphere for?
On 2025-08-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly
we were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we found
out about the Rule of 78s.
We bought our Honda CR-V on a lease-to-own plan. Looking back on it we realized we had been screwed.
Western Victoria. Wooden power poles out here - mine's at the end of the
line and they strained the support wire so hard to avoid adding one more
pole in the middle of the last span that if you look at it from some
angles the pole actually looks bent back like a spring.
On 8/29/25 11:19, rbowman wrote:Hindenbery
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:54 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:If you check the records it was not the hydrogen on the
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solvents
but we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted
on the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'.
Either that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
Ah yes... The designers of the Hindenburg were well aware of the
dangers of hydrogen but the US had cornered the market on helium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925
was the problem but the doped fabric of the airship that was the cause
of the horrific disaster.
bliss
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of >>>>>> water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-piss-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with a
sphere for?
That's only the lighting. The tubes with the 'spheres' are angled away so you're seeing the back of the funnel. If you look closely at the one on
the right you can see the funnel transition. Those are the deluxe design.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/violinsoldier/191846328
They must have thought the PVC was too small a diameter for accuracy and
had something that could be used as a funnel. As one of the comments say 'don't eat the yellow snow'. I worked with a guy who had 4 years in the service, the Navy iirc. We were driving from Minneapolis to the job site
in the hinterlands, and there was a billboard with that slogan. Jimmy
asked what it meant. Nice guy but I don't know how he could be so
clueless. He wasn't dumb by any means just incredibly naive.
Fate had more in store for him. He'd planned for some recreation in his
spare time since we went out for two weeks at a time and brought his
bowling ball. The rest of his luggage wound up in Timbuktu or some other undisclosed location, but the bowling ball, shoes, and so forth arrived safely on the luggage carousel at Minneapolis–Saint Paul International.
Buying cars - or even telephones - with dealer financing is almost
always a bad deal. You are commingling negotiations on two transactions:
a purchase and a loan. If you have a trade-in it's even worse: Then
there are three transactions mixed together.
I don't intend to ever make use of it, even if we get those places in
Spain, but I'm happy for them.
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 29/08/2025 8:52 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>> Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving >>>> 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and >>>> 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also >>>> have an Earth lead as well.AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! Where
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Western Victoria. Wooden power poles out here - mine's at the end
of the line and they strained the support wire so hard to avoid
adding one more pole in the middle of the last span that if you
look at it from some angles the pole actually looks bent back like
a spring.
On 29/08/2025 16:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Why do Poor Peters vote for Rich Idiot Donald?Because he is more amusing than Rich Biden/Hillary ...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 23:51:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly
we were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we found
out about the Rule of 78s.
We bought our Honda CR-V on a lease-to-own plan. Looking back on it we
realized we had been screwed.
After the Audi I only bought one car on time, a 1980 Camaro. I was riding
by the dealership on my bicycle and saw a sign '$99 Down 0% Financing' through GMAC. I approached it like petting a rattlesnake but concluded it would work for me. The important word above is '1980'. The wheels were starting to come off the wagon and both the dealer and GM had an interest
in disappearing 1980 vehicles before the 1981 model year.
Good car but when the 3rd gen Firebird came out with a hatchback in '82 I
was sold.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 12:15:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/29/25 11:19, rbowman wrote:Hindenbery
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:54 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:If you check the records it was not the hydrogen on the
On 2025-08-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had industrial LOX tanks, acetylene tanks, all sorts of solventsEither that or "Hindenburg" (if they're old enough).
but we needed to get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted >>>>> on the premises. You could see the bureaucrat silently adding 'bomb'. >>>>
Ah yes... The designers of the Hindenburg were well aware of the
dangers of hydrogen but the US had cornered the market on helium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925
that
was the problem but the doped fabric of the airship that was the cause
of the horrific disaster.
https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/myths/
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 21:47:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't intend to ever make use of it, even if we get those places in
Spain, but I'm happy for them.
They are a source of local amusement and amazement.
https://www.cannabisindustrydata.com/how-many-cannabis-dispensaries-are- located-in-missoula-montana/
The refer to themselves as dispensaries, going back to the time when you needed a medical card. Some still are medical only but most also sell recreational. Same weed, different taxing.
There is a law about how close together they can be or there would
probably be more. The population of the city and surrounding areas is
about 125,000 if you count the mules. Even the most zoned out stoner does
the math, scratches his head, and says 'How are they all making a
living?'. It's not like people are driving in from adjoining states to
stock up. It's illegal in Idaho, but Spokane Washington where it is legal
is a lot closer. Still, every time a business leaves because they can't afford the rent a dispensary pops up.
The state is making money and 28% of the haul goes to FWP (Fish, Wildlife
& Parks), the state parks, and trails so I'm not complaining.
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I have AC.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 21:47:41 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't intend to ever make use of it, even if we get those places in
Spain, but I'm happy for them.
They are a source of local amusement and amazement.
https://www.cannabisindustrydata.com/how-many-cannabis-dispensaries-are- located-in-missoula-montana/
The refer to themselves as dispensaries, going back to the time when you needed a medical card. Some still are medical only but most also sell recreational. Same weed, different taxing.
There is a law about how close together they can be or there would
probably be more. The population of the city and surrounding areas is
about 125,000 if you count the mules. Even the most zoned out stoner does
the math, scratches his head, and says 'How are they all making a
living?'. It's not like people are driving in from adjoining states to
stock up. It's illegal in Idaho, but Spokane Washington where it is legal
is a lot closer. Still, every time a business leaves because they can't afford the rent a dispensary pops up.
The state is making money and 28% of the haul goes to FWP (Fish, Wildlife
& Parks), the state parks, and trails so I'm not complaining.
The ground does get very dry and cracked around here, but no
issues with the power. Actually I find it surprising that SWER
hasn't been more widely adopted overseas.
Not sure if they use that ground for the low voltage circuit thoughThere's a ground stake at the house and I believe under the pole
they burried wires parallel to the surface in different directions,
but I'm not entirely sure about that, it just gives me something to
think about when digging a hole. But I'm sure both sides of the
transformer connect to Earth.
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! WhereWestern Victoria.
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! WhereWestern Victoria.
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that. More stuck in the middle of the
Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot of cash in hand.
On 30/08/2025 5:00 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
<Snip>
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the
mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot of
cash in hand.
Back in the Roaring 20's, how did the Bootleggers get their ill-gotten
gains back into the mainstream??
Where there's a will, there's a way!! ;-P
Fave ride, one of the wire-wheel smaller
Ferraris ... delivery after body work.
Impressive ! Was doing 150 down the rural
roads and barely even noticed.
That's MPH, not KPH.
The Italians do GOOD WORK.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
On 30/08/2025 4:29 pm, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
Fave ride, one of the wire-wheel smaller
Ferraris ... delivery after body work.
Impressive ! Was doing 150 down the rural
roads and barely even noticed.
That's MPH, not KPH.
The Italians do GOOD WORK.
1977, Mazda Capella Rotary RX2 (Wankel 12A Rotary Engine (1146cc)),
couple of miles straight Country road, floored it.
135MPH/215KPH ... before I lifted my foot!!
Japanese do GOOD WORK, too!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Capella
Unfortunately, I wrote it off at 'normal' road speeds about six months
later.
In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 28/08/2025 23:52, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole andProbably, but I cant think of anything more useless than an electric car
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in rural Australia.
Some (not many) have them, although as a second (etc.) vehicle with
something petrol-powered. If the range gets you to the nearest town
and back, then it'll cover most of many rural Australian's driving
(I wonder of many think about the range reduction after the
batteries start wearing out though). The petrol station on a highway
through one of the nearest towns has a charging station. But that's
a bit crazy, it's well away from any other stores or sights, so
you'd spend much of an hour walking into town and back, although I
guess at least that's something to do. Anyway unsurprisingly I've
never seen an electric car there.
The fact that the two petrol stations in that town have been built
in just the last few years suggests that some people sure aren't
expecting electric cars to take over out here.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:17:29 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:--
On 29/08/2025 4:45 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:16:31 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:"bodywork by deer".... I like the idea!
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the
State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government >>>> Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was last service
and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance
traveled.
It wouldn't work for people like myself. I am the maintaining agent.
The only exception I can think of was bringing the Toyota in for the
airbag recall in 2020 after many nagging postcards. That wound up
costing me money since I saw a leftover 2018 on the lot and knew that
was the last year for the Toyota Yaris in the US. They were sick of
looking at it and were willing to deal, even overlooking the bodywork
by deer on the trade in.
Does that put it in the "Super-modified" category??
A bit. The hood still closed although it was a bit more sculpted. In one
of those moments where time slows down I noted the deer was riding on the hood for a bit. I stopped and he left the scene of the accident.
In this state if you kill the deer you can take it with you -- the whole deer. No butchering it by the side of the road and leaving a gut pile to attract bears, coyotes, and so forth. One should make sure the deer is
really dead and not just stunned before loading it into the hatchback.
"into the hatchback" ... Yuck!! Better with a Ute! (A Pick-up for our OS cousins!)
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English?? ;-P
On 30/08/2025 4:32 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:17:29 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:cousins!)
On 29/08/2025 4:45 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:16:31 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:"bodywork by deer".... I like the idea!
Don't know if it would work or not .... but I've been thinking if,
when you got your (Petrol or Electric or Combination) vehicle
maintained, the maintaining agent (mechanic/whatever) had to send the >>>>> State/Federal Government a document stating the Milage. The Government >>>>> Agency could then compare THAT figure with what it was last service
and the Vehicle Owner then get a Bill for Road Tax based on Distance >>>>> traveled.
It wouldn't work for people like myself. I am the maintaining agent.
The only exception I can think of was bringing the Toyota in for the
airbag recall in 2020 after many nagging postcards. That wound up
costing me money since I saw a leftover 2018 on the lot and knew that
was the last year for the Toyota Yaris in the US. They were sick of
looking at it and were willing to deal, even overlooking the bodywork
by deer on the trade in.
Does that put it in the "Super-modified" category??
A bit. The hood still closed although it was a bit more sculpted. In one
of those moments where time slows down I noted the deer was riding on the
hood for a bit. I stopped and he left the scene of the accident.
In this state if you kill the deer you can take it with you -- the whole
deer. No butchering it by the side of the road and leaving a gut pile to
attract bears, coyotes, and so forth. One should make sure the deer is
really dead and not just stunned before loading it into the hatchback.
"into the hatchback" ... Yuck!! Better with a Ute! (A Pick-up for our OS
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 29/08/2025 8:52 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>> Here in Australia, we have a Three Phase Supply down the Street giving >>>> 415V between any two of the Phases for heavy duty Industrial supply and >>>> 240V between any individual Phase and the Central Neutral. Then we also >>>> have an Earth lead as well.AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! Where
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and
Earth doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do
wonder what would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric
car and tries charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to
pump through the ground, and if the voltage drops would it all
start oscillating as the charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Western Victoria. Wooden power poles out here - mine's at the end
of the line and they strained the support wire so hard to avoid
adding one more pole in the middle of the last span that if you
look at it from some angles the pole actually looks bent back like
a spring.
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! WhereWestern Victoria.
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that. More stuck in the middle of the Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
On 2025-08-29, Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
On 29/08/2025 12:06 am, Tim Slattery wrote:
Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote:
Oh! Picky! Picky! (Trying to think of the show/film where the Cow tells >>>> the customers what their best cut would be and how to prepare it!! Ah!! >>>> Red Dwarf, of Course, Restaurant at the end of the Universe!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU )
Don't know anything about Red Dwarf, but that schtick comes from
Douglas Adam's book "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe", part
of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" series. Hysterical!
Ofcourse it does!! Why the hell did I suggest "Red Dwarf" but then
mention "Restaurant at the end of the Universe".
Book Three of the Six Book Trilogy, I think.
Six? I must be forgetting one. I did love the way the fifth was
described as "the fifth book in the increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhiker's Trilogy".
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English?? ;-P
On 29/08/2025 20:16, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
That's not the problem. The problem is the amount of debt that everyone
has incurred.
On 30/08/2025 5:00 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
<Snip>
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the
mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot of
cash in hand.
Back in the Roaring 20's, how did the Bootleggers get their ill-gotten
gains back into the mainstream??
Where there's a will, there's a way!! ;-P
On 30/08/2025 5:10 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!!Western Victoria.
Where in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that. More stuck in the middle of the
Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
"Western Victoria" is just about 'Down Town" compared to lots of
Australia.
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!! WhereWestern Victoria.
in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that. More stuck in the middle of the
Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
On 8/30/25 05:33, Daniel70 wrote:
"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
I mean who should know The English Language better than the
English?? ;-P
Anyone speaking the English lanuage who paid attention in
history classes. William the Bastard, aka the Conqueror of England in
1066 AD whcih led eventualy to the United Kingdom. Allegedly the son
of a butcher but ambitious and capable. His daddy could carve up a
carcass and William carved up England into estates for his
followers. He was responsible for the creation of the Domesday Book
which was information on which to base taxes.
Before the Conquest England was divided into smaller states
which were too fiercely independent to mount a unified response to the
latest continental invasion.
For several hundred years the languages in use were for aristocrats, Norman French. For the clergy Latin and for the peasants depending on
what they had spoken before the Conquest, various tongues but were
gradually forced to learn enough Norman French to avoid frequent beatings
by their Overlords or the Overlords minions.
Now English emerged from this stew and was not planned by anyone
which is why it has so many deviations from what would appear to be
logical usage and spelling.
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
On 30/08/2025 5:00 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 00:43, rbowman wrote:
<Snip>
afaik the marijuana stores here are cash only. Since it is still
illegal on the federal level I don't think credit card companies will
touch it. I don't know about paper checks.
Can't they create estate only banks? Or would that still not be legal?
No idea. I assume they have some way to get the money into the
mainstream.
It hasn't been a problem here but in some places the weed shops are
targeted by robbers since they're one of the few businesses with a lot
of cash in hand.
Back in the Roaring 20's, how did the Bootleggers get their ill-gotten
gains back into the mainstream??
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English??
;-P
On 8/30/25 3:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit
with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 30/08/2025 4:29 pm, c186282 wrote:
<Snip>
Fave ride, one of the wire-wheel smaller Ferraris ... delivery
after body work. Impressive ! Was doing 150 down the rural roads
and barely even noticed.
That's MPH, not KPH.
The Italians do GOOD WORK.
1977, Mazda Capella Rotary RX2 (Wankel 12A Rotary Engine (1146cc)),
couple of miles straight Country road, floored it.
135MPH/215KPH ... before I lifted my foot!!
On 8/30/25 1:02 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 23:51:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2025-08-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
When we were first married we bought an Audi on time in a misguided
attempt to beef up our credit score. Went home, figured out how badly
we were getting screwed, and paid it off in full. That's when we
found out about the Rule of 78s.
We bought our Honda CR-V on a lease-to-own plan. Looking back on it we
realized we had been screwed.
After the Audi I only bought one car on time, a 1980 Camaro. I was
riding by the dealership on my bicycle and saw a sign '$99 Down 0%
Financing' through GMAC. I approached it like petting a rattlesnake but
concluded it would work for me. The important word above is '1980'.
The wheels were starting to come off the wagon and both the dealer and
GM had an interest in disappearing 1980 vehicles before the 1981 model
year.
Good car but when the 3rd gen Firebird came out with a hatchback in '82
I was sold.
Hey, "cool looking" just CALLS
DROVE a hopped-up Corvette a few times ... impressive ... but I
wouldn't BUY one.
SOME creosote wood poles still ARE good however.
Mine is over 60 years and still solid.
Regardless, those kind of machines were NOT a great idea. Too LARGE,
too subject to WIND influences. LOOKED really cool though ...
Anyway, eastern USA especially, deer have become a PEST SPECIES and
public-safety threat. 'Conservation'
and "Bambi lovers" were responsible. LARGE numbers of impacts now.
Alas the product is 10-100 times stronger than the old 60s/70s weed.
Now you get Thor's Hammer.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 02:59:44 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Alas the product is 10-100 times stronger than the old 60s/70s weed.
Now you get Thor's Hammer.
If I went that route I'd get some of the 'edibles' and cut them into
little pieces rather than jumping right in. 'dabs' all that stuff is Greek
to me. All I ever knew was a baggie of ditchweed and a pack of 'zags.
i did score some hash a couple of times. That was good stuff but I think
it still was near beer in comparison to the modern stuff.
Anyway, I've found I prefer reality without chemical assistance. Well,
there is my caffeine consumption...
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit
with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
I remember when the Wankels started showing up at SCCA races. They would
go down the straight very rapidly making a polite little humming noise.
On 8/30/25 8:33 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English?? ;-P
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more
about English history than actual Brits these days :-)
Anyway, 'check' or 'cheque' ... convenient paper instrument
for transferring funds. Best for larger transfers.
Sorry, anyone with SENSE doesn't have a $95,000 limit
on their credit cards and does NOT do wire/routing
transfers because Vlad's boyz will be ON that within
five minutes.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 08:47:47 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
'Brits' is flexible these days. I read an article this morning about how
one of UKIP's talking points about Brexit was decreasing immigration. How
did that work out?
On 8/30/25 05:33, Daniel70 wrote:
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really say
chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to rhyme with
hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English?? ;-P
Anyone speaking the English lanuage who paid attention in history classes.
William the Bastard, aka the Conqueror of England in 1066 AD whcih led eventualy
to the United Kingdom. Allegedly the son of a butcher but ambitious and capable.
His daddy could carve up a carcass and William carved up England into
estates
for his followers. He was responsible for the creation of the Domesday Book which was information on which to base taxes.
Before the Conquest England was divided into smaller states which were
too fiercely independent to mount a unified response to the latest continental
invasion.
For several hundred years the languages in use were for aristocrats, Norman French. For the clergy Latin and for the peasants depending on
what they had spoken before the Conquest, various tongues but were
gradually forced to learn enough Norman French to avoid frequent beatings
by their Overlords or the Overlords minions.
Now English emerged from this stew and was not planned by anyone which is why it has so many deviations from what would appear to be
logical usage and spelling.
bliss
Today it's the Department of Ecological Equity' or some such. Good bet
Hochul doesn't want rednecks shooting Bambi.
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit
with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025
20:23:14 +0100 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
On 29/08/2025 20:16, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
Hmm, like in the PRC's One Child Policy? Speaking of which hows
that working out?
That's not the problem. The problem is the amount of debt that everyone
has incurred.
That too is not a new phenomena.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 23:03:34 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 30/08/2025 5:10 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/2025 01:28, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
AH!! "SWER" "Single Wire, Earth Return". Forgot all about them!!Western Victoria.
Where in 'Regional Australia' are you??
Can't get much more 'rural' than that. More stuck in the middle of the
Great Australian Bugger All, I'd say.
"Western Victoria" is just about 'Down Town" compared to lots of
Australia.
Considering Montana is 60,000 square miles larger than Victoria and has 4 million fewer people than Melbourne alone, I'm having little problem with 'rural' too.
I realize that the population density isn't uniform, but...
Even Bendigo is a big city compared to where I live.
And sugar which produces the same reaction in the CNS as many
narcotics.
On 30/08/2025 20:21, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 08:47:47 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
'Brits' is flexible these days. I read an article this morning about
how one of UKIP's talking points about Brexit was decreasing
immigration. How did that work out?
We never got the brexit we voted for, which is why Nigel is now going
back into politics
On 30/08/2025 21:29, rbowman wrote:
Today it's the Department of Ecological Equity' or some such. Good bet
Hochul doesn't want rednecks shooting Bambi.
I just heard that a friend of a friend is going to - or has - potted a fallow deer, and half is coming my way. Yum!.
I think that's christmas sorted
Yes I smirk when big (to me) cities like Bendigo and Geelong are labeled "regional Victoria" in the media. Anyway where I live there are more
roos per square Km than humans, so that's a metric.
On 30/08/2025 13:47, c186282 wrote:
On 8/30/25 8:33 AM, Daniel70 wrote:Golly. I remember those. Haven't used one in years
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've told themCheck?
you'll be writing a check.
What's a check?
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you really
say chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say whinging to
rhyme with hinge. William the Bastard really did screw the language
up.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the English??
;-P
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
Anyway, 'check' or 'cheque' ... convenient paper instrument for
transferring funds. Best for larger transfers.
It get's worse, because at the time when printing started to become
normal, the printers would decide how to spell words and sometimes they
made a godawful mess.
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to >upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of
rewiring.
On 30/08/2025 18:37, pyotr filipivich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025
20:23:14 +0100 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
On 29/08/2025 20:16, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans >>>> had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where >>>> are the next generation going to live? Work?
Hmm, like in the PRC's One Child Policy? Speaking of which hows
that working out?
Well. thereby hangs a tale.
Official CCP story. The populations has stabilised at 1.4billion.
Unofficial careful estimates made using proxies., China fell to less
than a billion - 900million and then covid came along and *half the
people died* and China is now only 450 million or thereabouts
And the economy is in collapse
Feel free to do your own research.--
That's not the problem. The problem is the amount of debt that everyone
has incurred.
That too is not a new phenomena.
Well is sorta is.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025
20:23:14 +0100 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
On 29/08/2025 20:16, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> on Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:50:56They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
GMT typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
Hmm, like in the PRC's One Child Policy? Speaking of which hows
that working out?
--That's not the problem. The problem is the amount of debt that everyone
has incurred.
That too is not a new phenomena.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 23:45:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/2025 20:21, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 08:47:47 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
'Brits' is flexible these days. I read an article this morning about
how one of UKIP's talking points about Brexit was decreasing
immigration. How did that work out?
We never got the brexit we voted for, which is why Nigel is now going
back into politics
Funny how you never quite get what you voted for, isn't it? You get what
the people who own the pols want. I've been rereading Spengler's
'Prussianism and Socialism' from 1919 where he mentions the same problem
with the Tories and Whigs of his day.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 22:33:04 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
wrote:
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've toldCheck? What's a check?
them you'll be writing a check.
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you
really say chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say
whinging to rhyme with hinge. William the Bastard really did
screw the language up.
I think there was some discussion about Clinton's parentage
but I had in mind the Frenchy who brought some Romanized mishmash to
the island to blend in with the existing mishmash.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the
English?? ;-P
Now if they could learn to speak it. I've enjoyed several Australian
shows like 'Mystery Road'. I don't have a problem understanding the
dialogue which is more than I can say for some British police
procedurals.
I will admit I thought the kid's name was Molly before I say it
spelled Marley on a poster. Otherwise WA looked very familiar
although I've never been there.
But such honest trade seems to be rare in that line of business.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 02:19:18 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Regardless, those kind of machines were NOT a great idea. Too LARGE,
too subject to WIND influences. LOOKED really cool though ...
After WWI the US copied a captured Zepplin. Unfortunately it was a height climber, designed for one thing only -- getting higher than the ceiling of the Brit aeroplanes, not durability.
https://sped2work.tripod.com/zeppelins.html
'Hell's Angels' is well worth watching if you've never seen it.
On 8/30/25 12:10 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
Big 6-beer piss ... better go 3/4" minimum on the funnel :-)
Anyway, if you WANT the side of your house to smell like
a Parisian alleyway .........
Where I live the water table is typically only two or
three feet down. "Grounding" is fairly easy. Not the
same everywhere though ... worst case you may need to
go down 20-30 feet - and even then don't expect to
continually channel lots of amps down there.
Actual 'ground' is best coupled with Ground-Fault
breakers. "Ground" is your last-ditch SAFETY, not
a common functional wiring item.
USA, most 'ground rods' you buy these days are just
copper-plated steel. They WILL rot after a time
from electrolytic action. 1940s/50s some 60s ...
the rods were kinda pure hammer-hardened copper.
Unaffordable now.
On 8/30/25 3:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit
on 10 amps.
In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 29/08/2025 00:56, rbowman wrote:
On 29 Aug 2025 08:52:38 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:Got to agree, and yet, as Galileo said, "It works".
Except for me, with a SWER line. Just one wire to the pole and Earth
doubles as Neutral. Very common in rural Australia. I do wonder what
would/will happen if everyone on SWER buys an electric car and tries
charging it on the same night, it's a lot of juice to pump through the >>>> ground, and if the voltage drops would it all start oscillating as the >>>> charging circuits in the cars cut in/out?
The 'roos toes will be tingling. I can understand the cost benefits but I >>> shudder at basing the scheme on soil conductivity unless you live in a
swamp.
Indeed, I don't even get hot feet while using a welder. :)
The ground does get very dry and cracked around here, but no
issues with the power. Actually I find it surprising that SWER
hasn't been more widely adopted overseas.
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function
sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of >>>>>> water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the
spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-piss-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with a
sphere for?
That's only the lighting. The tubes with the 'spheres' are angled away so you're seeing the back of the funnel. If you look closely at the one on
the right you can see the funnel transition. Those are the deluxe design.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/violinsoldier/191846328
They must have thought the PVC was too small a diameter for accuracy and
had something that could be used as a funnel. As one of the comments say 'don't eat the yellow snow'. I worked with a guy who had 4 years in the service, the Navy iirc. We were driving from Minneapolis to the job site
in the hinterlands, and there was a billboard with that slogan. Jimmy
asked what it meant. Nice guy but I don't know how he could be so
clueless. He wasn't dumb by any means just incredibly naive.
Fate had more in store for him. He'd planned for some recreation in his
spare time since we went out for two weeks at a time and brought his
bowling ball. The rest of his luggage wound up in Timbuktu or some other undisclosed location, but the bowling ball, shoes, and so forth arrived safely on the luggage carousel at Minneapolis–Saint Paul International.
On 2025-08-30 10:52, c186282 wrote:
On 8/30/25 3:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a
decent A/C unit with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit
on 10 amps.
I do. :-P
It is rated at 1200Wats, I think. Inverter, at night runs as low as
180watts. I measured it.
Unfortunately, we now live under an economic model that depends on
perpetual growth.
Pretty much that has been the model for millennium. The Romans
had to keep expanding to bring in the wealth to the capital.
Unless one is willing to limit the size of the population, where
are the next generation going to live? Work?
They probably aren't going to live, one way or another.
Hmm, like in the PRC's One Child Policy? Speaking of which hows
that working out?
Hmm! I was going to post that PRC had cancelled that some time ago but checking .... https://duckduckgo.com/?kl=us-en&q=%22PRC%27s+One+Child+Policy%22&t=seamonkey&ia=web
... seems not.
Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> wrote:
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to >>upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of >>rewiring.
That sounds like they don't want you to have solar power. Or are we
talking about a single phase at 100 ?
I think we use bronze. No, Google says copper-plated steel too.
Maybe in the past.
'Mystery Road' is a nice little Aussie Crime Drama .... set in the
absolutely gorgeous Outback.
Sort of "Doctor Who"'ish .... The first series featured a 40'ish Main character, later series featured a 20s Main character .... which is
about to reappear on Aussie T.V. in a couple of weeks.
On 31/08/2025 6:20 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 02:19:18 -0400, c186282 wrote:'Hell's Angels'?? Is that spelled correctly?? ;-P
Regardless, those kind of machines were NOT a great idea. Too
LARGE,
too subject to WIND influences. LOOKED really cool though ...
After WWI the US copied a captured Zepplin. Unfortunately it was a
height climber, designed for one thing only -- getting higher than the
ceiling of the Brit aeroplanes, not durability.
https://sped2work.tripod.com/zeppelins.html
'Hell's Angels' is well worth watching if you've never seen it.
On 2025-08-30 06:10, rbowman wrote:piss-
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function >>>>>>> sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of >>>>>>> water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the >>>>>>> spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with
a sphere for?
That's only the lighting. The tubes with the 'spheres' are angled away
so you're seeing the back of the funnel. If you look closely at the one
on the right you can see the funnel transition. Those are the deluxe
design.
I see :-D
And ladies?
On 2025-08-31, Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> wrote:
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to >>>upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of >>>rewiring.
That sounds like they don't want you to have solar power. Or are we
talking about a single phase at 100 ?
Not sure how they specify it. The fact that the other company had no
qualms about putting a 14kW generator into the same system probably
means he was BSing me; on the other hand, he was a SOLAR installer. But
I wanted to add batteries at the same time, and that may have spooked
him. On the other hand, the generator is only running when the house is >disconnected from the grid.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 14:24:56 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-30 06:10, rbowman wrote:piss-
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:26:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-29 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:49:06 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 29/08/2025 4:31 am, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 23:07:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:But that might have required us to be "out of Uniform whilst On
During Summer, when the Ground dried out, this transfer function >>>>>>>> sometimes didn't work so the Correcting Action was to get a Jug of >>>>>>>> water and go outside to the Earth spike and pour the Water on the >>>>>>>> spike and surrounding Ground.
Pissing on the ground rod works too. More conductive.
Duty"!!
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/military-equalizer-iraq-
tubes/
You just need some planning on the placement of the sanitary
arrangements and the ground rods.
Ok, I understand the tubes with a funnel, but what are the tubes with
a sphere for?
That's only the lighting. The tubes with the 'spheres' are angled away
so you're seeing the back of the funnel. If you look closely at the one
on the right you can see the funnel transition. Those are the deluxe
design.
I see :-D
And ladies?
https://dmna.ny.gov/foodservice/docs/ Field_Sanitation_Team_Certification_Course/Instructor_Manual/ L006LP_Waste_Disposal_LP.pdf
Presumably they use the latrine although I'm sure some will try to use the tubes to prove they are equal.
On 2025-08-30 04:31, Lars Poulsen wrote:
But such honest trade seems to be rare in that line of business.
When I bought my cars, I think I always got a straight figure. There was
a list of extras I wanted, got a quote instantly. I don't remember if
the leaflet hand a list of extras and prices. Probably, but not in the
full colour leaflet, but another paper.
Wow. Yes, you need an officer dedicated to all this stuff. One doesn't
think of it.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 23:45:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/2025 20:21, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 08:47:47 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Saw recent news story - seems the Yanks know more about English
history than actual Brits these days
'Brits' is flexible these days. I read an article this morning about
how one of UKIP's talking points about Brexit was decreasing
immigration. How did that work out?
We never got the brexit we voted for, which is why Nigel is now going
back into politics
Funny how you never quite get what you voted for, isn't it? You get what
the people who own the pols want. I've been rereading Spengler's
'Prussianism and Socialism' from 1919 where he mentions the same problem
with the Tories and Whigs of his day.
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit >>>>>> with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I
have AC.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of
rewiring. With a 100 amp service, the copde would only allow me to
have 5kW of solar generation power. So that option was cost prohibitive.
So I put in a 14kW natiural gas powered generator to use when wildfires
take the grid down. Comes on in 10 seconds when the power drops.
At work, we have a couple of window A/C units. Each of them shares
a 10 amp circuit (1200 W) with some other minor things such as lamps
desktop computers. I doubt they draw more than 800W. I.e. similar to a microwave oven.
An yes, we also have a central HVAC system at that house. No problem.
On 8/30/25 5:30 PM, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit
with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes,
I have AC.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have
to upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot
of rewiring. With a 100 amp service, the copde would only allow me to
have 5kW of solar generation power. So that option was cost
prohibitive. So I put in a 14kW natiural gas powered generator to use
when wildfires take the grid down. Comes on in 10 seconds when the
power drops.
At work, we have a couple of window A/C units. Each of them shares
a 10 amp circuit (1200 W) with some other minor things such as lamps
desktop computers. I doubt they draw more than 800W. I.e. similar to
a microwave oven.
An yes, we also have a central HVAC system at that house. No problem.
Ya know ..... I think you were being conned by those
hoping for a huge profit from re-working your whole
system.
So long as your inverter didn't deliver more than 100a
regardless, your existing service would have been fine.
100a should usually be enough for an 'average home', so
you could have put the extra money into more batteries.
Now if you ran out and just HAD to buy a nine room "McMansion"
in 90s ... well. Probably takes 100a just to juice the hot tub
and mini-Olympic pool ! :-)
Note there are several contributors to this thread. Some
are USA, some are UK or Oz. The USA home systems are always
240/120v while the UK is 240v-all. 100a at 240 is the same
amount of *energy* as 200a at 120.
Look up a schematic for common home breaker boxes - "Square-D"
is typical for the USA. There are various vertical 'rails' the
breakers plug into. The 120v breakers plug into the left or
right side 'hots' and then to the neutral. 240v stuff, stoves,
A/C units, are always 'double-size' breakers and plug into
rails that reach across the 240 rails. Your electrician is
SUPPOSED to kind of balance the predicted loads so you
don't have too many breakers of a given kind on one rail
and 'side'. If the A/C is on the right, put the stove
on the left.
Now what I've never heard a good reason for are the HUGE
ugly appliance plugs used in the UK. Somehow I don't see
a table lamp using 100 amps at 240v nor have I seen any
24,000w light bulbs at the hardware store :-)
c186282 wrote:
On 8/30/25 5:30 PM, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit >>>>>>>> with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, >>>>>>> I have AC.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have
to upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot
of rewiring. With a 100 amp service, the copde would only allow me to
have 5kW of solar generation power. So that option was cost
prohibitive. So I put in a 14kW natiural gas powered generator to use
when wildfires take the grid down. Comes on in 10 seconds when the
power drops.
At work, we have a couple of window A/C units. Each of them shares
a 10 amp circuit (1200 W) with some other minor things such as lamps
desktop computers. I doubt they draw more than 800W. I.e. similar to
a microwave oven.
An yes, we also have a central HVAC system at that house. No problem.
Ya know ..... I think you were being conned by those
hoping for a huge profit from re-working your whole
system.
So long as your inverter didn't deliver more than 100a
regardless, your existing service would have been fine.
100a should usually be enough for an 'average home', so
you could have put the extra money into more batteries.
Now if you ran out and just HAD to buy a nine room "McMansion"
in 90s ... well. Probably takes 100a just to juice the hot tub
and mini-Olympic pool ! :-)
Note there are several contributors to this thread. Some
are USA, some are UK or Oz. The USA home systems are always
240/120v while the UK is 240v-all. 100a at 240 is the same
amount of *energy* as 200a at 120.
Look up a schematic for common home breaker boxes - "Square-D"
is typical for the USA. There are various vertical 'rails' the
breakers plug into. The 120v breakers plug into the left or
right side 'hots' and then to the neutral. 240v stuff, stoves,
A/C units, are always 'double-size' breakers and plug into
rails that reach across the 240 rails. Your electrician is
SUPPOSED to kind of balance the predicted loads so you
don't have too many breakers of a given kind on one rail
and 'side'. If the A/C is on the right, put the stove
on the left.
Now what I've never heard a good reason for are the HUGE
ugly appliance plugs used in the UK. Somehow I don't see
a table lamp using 100 amps at 240v nor have I seen any
24,000w light bulbs at the hardware store :-)
They used to have 3 kinds of ugly plugs, for circuits of different
current capacities, 2, 13 and 15a if I remember correctly. Then they standardized on 13a, but kept the ugly.
They used to have 3 kinds of ugly plugs, for circuits of different
current capacities, 2, 13 and 15a if I remember correctly. Then they standardized on 13a, but kept the ugly.
Ian wrote:
[snip]
They used to have 3 kinds of ugly plugs, for circuits of different
current capacities, 2, 13 and 15a if I remember correctly. Then they
standardized on 13a, but kept the ugly.
In the UK the main reason for the ugly 13A plugs with rectangular pins
was to include a fuse - a feature which as far as I know is only present
in UK plugs. These are BS 1363. They have shutters in the sockets,
opened by the longer earth pin.
There was a variant installed in houses in the Wakefield area (and
elsewhere, perhaps) in the 1950s was to make the "live" pin a removable fuse. Of course what actually happened was that the fuse came unscrewed
by itself and was left in the socket when the plug was removed. Hey
presto a live contact in the wall for anybody to touch!
So the 13A plugs were pushed country-wide. Given that by 1950 most
existing rubber-insulated domestic wiring was failing (the rubber
perished) it all had to be replaced anyway.
The 13A rectangular pins are fairly inefficient at carrying large
currents, despite their size, because the sockets only touch one or two
faces with springy metal. By contrast the earlier plugs (generally to
BS 546) had round pins. These were made in four sizes with current capacities from 2A to 30A. Each receptacle was a cylinder split to
provide some elasticity which thus made contact all round the pin and
over a significant part of its length.
The round-pin style rated at 15A is widely used in theatre lighting installations specifically because it does not contain a fuse. In
principle each circuit is protected at a central point (usually the
dimmer panel) so that a fuse can be replaced or a breaker reset without having to (get a ladder to) reach the distribution socket near the lamp itself.
Only consolation ... at least the UK will go to hell
in it's own hand-basket instead of a Made In EU
hand-basket. It may be able to chart its own course,
something "more British", as opposed to Other People's
dictates.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 14:00:18 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-30 04:31, Lars Poulsen wrote:
But such honest trade seems to be rare in that line of business.
When I bought my cars, I think I always got a straight figure. There was
a list of extras I wanted, got a quote instantly. I don't remember if
the leaflet hand a list of extras and prices. Probably, but not in the
full colour leaflet, but another paper.
https://www.wrtv.com/lifestyle/history/1992-saturns-no-dicker-sticker- proves-popular-among-hoosier-car-buyers
GM spun off the Saturn label that was supposed to work that way. It hit economic headwinds and went from an independent design to a Frankencar assembled from bits and pieces from the other GM divisions before being
shut down in 2009.
Interesting concept. It may have been swimming against the American
psyche. 'I beat that salesman down and got a really great deal!'
I don't know if I ever got a great deal but I got a deal that was
acceptable to me. I don't have the proper genetics to enjoy haggling. I go through the motions with 'Will you take..' but my heart isn't in it.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 21:46:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Wow. Yes, you need an officer dedicated to all this stuff. One doesn't
think of it.
REMFs need something to do.
They used to have 3 kinds of ugly plugs, for circuits of differentYou nissed 3A and 5A....
current capacities, 2, 13 and 15a if I remember correctly. Then they]
standardized on 13a, but kept the ugly.
Sometimes I wonder how much of this kind of stuff is REAL
and how much is INVENTED to profit various commercial
entities.
Why ... we'll just have to replace EVERY outlet, maybe
every inch of wire, in your house ! What's THAT cost ?
What percent is profit ?
On 01/09/2025 09:30, c186282 wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how much of this kind of stuff is REAL
and how much is INVENTED to profit various commercial
entities.
Why ... we'll just have to replace EVERY outlet, maybe
every inch of wire, in your house ! What's THAT cost ?
What percent is profit ?
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in 1953
had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
Around about 1970 that was obsolete and the rubber used was starting to crumble. Still safe in steel conduit though.
Then extra wiring was needed for more power more machines and more sockets,. That was extended in the modern style and a new fusebox fitted.
UK building regulations are *not* retrospective, houses built to old standards are allowed to exist, but not modernised extended or rebuilt
to old standards.
Modern wiring with Twin and earth PVC cable is only to be installed *if*
the old wiring constitutes a danger, and its typically the insurance
company who will kick up a fuss.
Rewiring a house is not that expensive. Normally it's done every 60
years or so when major refurbishment happens when a house is sold.
Profit for whom? The sockets are dirt cheap - less than $2 in USA terms, unless you want them gold plated...or made of brass..
Wire is cheap too. The biggest cost is simply labour - to pull the wires
and connect them up. It's about 1/2 hr per socket. Pulling wires may
take weeks if the paths are long and contorted
Fuse boxes (consumer units) are quite cheap but modern MCBS are a tad
pricey.
So an electricity upgrade is in the thousands of dollars range, but
seldom in the tens of thousands.
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up after
some years.
My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some points
when they go into some device.
On 2025-09-01 11:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 09:30, c186282 wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how much of this kind of stuff is REAL
and how much is INVENTED to profit various commercial
entities.
Why ... we'll just have to replace EVERY outlet, maybe
every inch of wire, in your house ! What's THAT cost ?
What percent is profit ?
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in
1953 had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
Around about 1970 that was obsolete and the rubber used was starting
to crumble. Still safe in steel conduit though.
Then extra wiring was needed for more power more machines and more
sockets,. That was extended in the modern style and a new fusebox fitted.
UK building regulations are *not* retrospective, houses built to old
standards are allowed to exist, but not modernised extended or rebuilt
to old standards.
Modern wiring with Twin and earth PVC cable is only to be installed
*if* the old wiring constitutes a danger, and its typically the
insurance company who will kick up a fuss.
Rewiring a house is not that expensive. Normally it's done every 60
years or so when major refurbishment happens when a house is sold.
Profit for whom? The sockets are dirt cheap - less than $2 in USA
terms, unless you want them gold plated...or made of brass..
Wire is cheap too. The biggest cost is simply labour - to pull the
wires and connect them up. It's about 1/2 hr per socket. Pulling wires
may take weeks if the paths are long and contorted
Fuse boxes (consumer units) are quite cheap but modern MCBS are a tad
pricey.
So an electricity upgrade is in the thousands of dollars range, but
seldom in the tens of thousands.
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to replace
the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow thicker
cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means digging a
small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and paint the
walls back.
So I'm not doing it. Aiming instead to move to a flat, then the buyer
will probably demolish the house.
On 2025-08-28 21:27, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some points
when they go into some device.
And now I have learned that soldered connections are prohibited by the
code in most of the EU. It is considered dangerous.
For an explanation, I had to ask chatgpt. I asked again (the original
answer is gone from my browser), the answer is slightly different:
Q: Could you explain why the electric code in the EU prohibits soldered connections? English, please.
Yes, absolutely. In the **EU**, soldered connections are **not
completely prohibited**, but their use is **restricted or discouraged**
in **certain permanent wiring installations**, especially in fixed
electrical systems like household or commercial building wiring.
Here’s **why**:
---
### 🔧 **Soldered Connections Can Be Mechanically Weak**
* **Solder alone doesn't provide strong mechanical strength.**
If a wire is only soldered (without a mechanical connector like a terminal block or screw clamp), the connection can **break or loosen**
under stress, vibration, or heat cycles.
* **Solder can deform over time.**
It softens at relatively low temperatures. If the connection heats up (even slightly under normal use), the solder may **creep** or **change shape**, causing a loose or unreliable connection.
---
### 🔥 **Fire Safety & Overheating Risks**
* A **loose connection** increases electrical resistance, which can
generate heat.
* Over time, this can cause **overheating**, **insulation damage**, or
even **fire**.
* Because soldered joints are more likely to loosen, they are
**considered less safe** in fixed installations where ongoing
maintenance isn’t practical.
---
### 📘 **EU Wiring Standards – Specifically EN 60364 / IEC 60364**
* These are the European and international standards for electrical installations.
* They require that connections be **"durable, mechanically secure, and protected against stress."**
* **Screw terminals, spring clamps, crimp connectors,** and other
mechanical fasteners are **approved methods** because they ensure
strong, reliable connections.
---
### ✔️ OK in Electronics, Not in Fixed Wiring
* **Soldering is perfectly fine** and standard in **circuit boards**, electronics, and small appliances.
* But in **fixed electrical wiring** (e.g. behind your walls),
**soldering is discouraged or banned** as the sole method of connection.
---
### ✅ Bottom Line:
The EU restricts soldered connections in permanent wiring **becausethey are not mechanically reliable on their own**. Safe connections must
be both **electrically sound** and **mechanically strong**, which solder alone doesn’t guarantee.
Let me know if you'd like references from the standards or help with
specific national codes like the UK’s BS 7671 (IET Wiring Regulations).
Ian wrote:
[snip]
They used to have 3 kinds of ugly plugs, for circuits of different
current capacities, 2, 13 and 15a if I remember correctly. Then they
standardized on 13a, but kept the ugly.
In the UK the main reason for the ugly 13A plugs with rectangular pins
was to include a fuse - a feature which as far as I know is only present
in UK plugs. These are BS 1363. They have shutters in the sockets,
opened by the longer earth pin.
There was a variant installed in houses in the Wakefield area (and
elsewhere, perhaps) in the 1950s was to make the "live" pin a removable fuse. Of course what actually happened was that the fuse came unscrewed
by itself and was left in the socket when the plug was removed. Hey
presto a live contact in the wall for anybody to touch!
So the 13A plugs were pushed country-wide. Given that by 1950 most
existing rubber-insulated domestic wiring was failing (the rubber
perished) it all had to be replaced anyway.
The 13A rectangular pins are fairly inefficient at carrying large
currents, despite their size, because the sockets only touch one or two
faces with springy metal. By contrast the earlier plugs (generally to
BS 546) had round pins. These were made in four sizes with current capacities from 2A to 30A. Each receptacle was a cylinder split to
provide some elasticity which thus made contact all round the pin and
over a significant part of its length.
The round-pin style rated at 15A is widely used in theatre lighting installations specifically because it does not contain a fuse. In
principle each circuit is protected at a central point (usually the
dimmer panel) so that a fuse can be replaced or a breaker reset without having to (get a ladder to) reach the distribution socket near the lamp itself.
On 01/09/2025 09:30, c186282 wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how much of this kind of stuff is REAL
and how much is INVENTED to profit various commercial
entities.
Why ... we'll just have to replace EVERY outlet, maybe
every inch of wire, in your house ! What's THAT cost ?
What percent is profit ?
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in 1953
had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
Around about 1970 that was obsolete and the rubber used was starting to crumble. Still safe in steel conduit though.
Then extra wiring was needed for more power more machines and more sockets,. That was extended in the modern style and a new fusebox fitted.
UK building regulations are *not* retrospective, houses built to old standards are allowed to exist, but not modernised extended or rebuilt
to old standards.
Modern wiring with Twin and earth PVC cable is only to be installed *if*
the old wiring constitutes a danger, and its typically the insurance
company who will kick up a fuss.
Rewiring a house is not that expensive. Normally it's done every 60
years or so when major refurbishment happens when a house is sold.
Profit for whom? The sockets are dirt cheap - less than $2 in USA terms, unless you want them gold plated...or made of brass..
Wire is cheap too. The biggest cost is simply labour - to pull the wires
and connect them up. It's about 1/2 hr per socket. Pulling wires may
take weeks if the paths are long and contorted
Fuse boxes (consumer units) are quite cheap but modern MCBS are a tad
pricey.
So an electricity upgrade is in the thousands of dollars range, but
seldom in the tens of thousands.
The EU restricts soldered connections in permanent wiring **because they
are not mechanically reliable on their own**. Safe connections must be
both **electrically sound** and **mechanically strong**, which solder
alone doesn’t guarantee.
Let me know if you'd like references from the standards or help with
specific national codes like the UK’s BS 7671 (IET Wiring Regulations).
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to replace
the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow thicker
cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means digging a
small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and paint the
walls back.
So I'm not doing it. Aiming instead to move to a flat, then the buyer
will probably demolish the house.
On 9/1/25 5:55 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 09:30, c186282 wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how much of this kind of stuff is REAL
and how much is INVENTED to profit various commercial
entities.
Why ... we'll just have to replace EVERY outlet, maybe
every inch of wire, in your house ! What's THAT cost ?
What percent is profit ?
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in
1953 had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
Super common in the USA until at least mid 60s.
Usually worked ... but if in a damp climate the
steel conduit would eventually rust.
Around about 1970 that was obsolete and the rubber used was starting
to crumble. Still safe in steel conduit though.
Then extra wiring was needed for more power more machines and more
sockets,. That was extended in the modern style and a new fusebox fitted.
UK building regulations are *not* retrospective, houses built to old
standards are allowed to exist, but not modernised extended or rebuilt
to old standards.
Modern wiring with Twin and earth PVC cable is only to be installed
*if* the old wiring constitutes a danger, and its typically the
insurance company who will kick up a fuss.
Rewiring a house is not that expensive. Normally it's done every 60
years or so when major refurbishment happens when a house is sold.
Ummm ... CHECK ... IS super-expensive these days,
especially if you want it done RIGHT.
Older houses don't have drop ceilings either - solid
wood and brick/concrete. Can't GET to anything. Weird
angles, can't pull new wires.
Profit for whom? The sockets are dirt cheap - less than $2 in USA
terms, unless you want them gold plated...or made of brass..
Profit for commercial electricians of course ... plus
the govt will find SOME way to get a little money out
of mandates.
Wire is cheap too. The biggest cost is simply labour - to pull the
wires and connect them up. It's about 1/2 hr per socket. Pulling wires
may take weeks if the paths are long and contorted
Which is COMMON. Houses are not made like shopping malls.
Fuse boxes (consumer units) are quite cheap but modern MCBS are a tad
pricey.
So an electricity upgrade is in the thousands of dollars range, but
seldom in the tens of thousands.
Well, glad you have the money/time to throw at it all ...
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
On 01/09/2025 11:20, c186282 wrote:
On 9/1/25 5:55 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 09:30, c186282 wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how much of this kind of stuff is REAL
and how much is INVENTED to profit various commercial
entities.
Why ... we'll just have to replace EVERY outlet, maybe
every inch of wire, in your house ! What's THAT cost ?
What percent is profit ?
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in
1953 had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
Super common in the USA until at least mid 60s.
Usually worked ... but if in a damp climate the
steel conduit would eventually rust.
Around about 1970 that was obsolete and the rubber used was starting
to crumble. Still safe in steel conduit though.
Then extra wiring was needed for more power more machines and more
sockets,. That was extended in the modern style and a new fusebox
fitted.
UK building regulations are *not* retrospective, houses built to old
standards are allowed to exist, but not modernised extended or
rebuilt to old standards.
Modern wiring with Twin and earth PVC cable is only to be installed
*if* the old wiring constitutes a danger, and its typically the
insurance company who will kick up a fuss.
Rewiring a house is not that expensive. Normally it's done every 60
years or so when major refurbishment happens when a house is sold.
Ummm ... CHECK ... IS super-expensive these days,
especially if you want it done RIGHT.
Older houses don't have drop ceilings either - solid
wood and brick/concrete. Can't GET to anything. Weird
angles, can't pull new wires.
Profit for whom? The sockets are dirt cheap - less than $2 in USA
terms, unless you want them gold plated...or made of brass..
Profit for commercial electricians of course ... plus
the govt will find SOME way to get a little money out
of mandates.
Wire is cheap too. The biggest cost is simply labour - to pull the
wires and connect them up. It's about 1/2 hr per socket. Pulling
wires may take weeks if the paths are long and contorted
Which is COMMON. Houses are not made like shopping malls.
Fuse boxes (consumer units) are quite cheap but modern MCBS are a tad
pricey.
So an electricity upgrade is in the thousands of dollars range, but
seldom in the tens of thousands.
Well, glad you have the money/time to throw at it all ...
In terms of a total house build it's not that great
And usually people have it done as part of an upgrade which cots a huge amount anyway - case in point my friend ditched his gas range in favour
of an induction hob. Expensive upgrade but well worth it - but that
involved a whole new dedicated circuit, breaker and wires being inserted
into a solid brick wall and concrete ceiling.
But it was still less than the hob itself cost
On 9/1/25 5:58 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 21:27, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some
points when they go into some device.
And now I have learned that soldered connections are prohibited by the
code in most of the EU. It is considered dangerous.
For an explanation, I had to ask chatgpt. I asked again (the original
answer is gone from my browser), the answer is slightly different:
Q: Could you explain why the electric code in the EU prohibits
soldered connections? English, please.
Yes, absolutely. In the **EU**, soldered connections are **not
completely prohibited**, but their use is **restricted or
discouraged** in **certain permanent wiring installations**,
especially in fixed electrical systems like household or commercial
building wiring.
Here’s **why**:
---
### 🔧 **Soldered Connections Can Be Mechanically Weak**
* **Solder alone doesn't provide strong mechanical strength.**
If a wire is only soldered (without a mechanical connector like a
terminal block or screw clamp), the connection can **break or loosen**
under stress, vibration, or heat cycles.
* **Solder can deform over time.**
It softens at relatively low temperatures. If the connection heats
up (even slightly under normal use), the solder may **creep** or
**change shape**, causing a loose or unreliable connection.
---
### 🔥 **Fire Safety & Overheating Risks**
* A **loose connection** increases electrical resistance, which can
generate heat.
* Over time, this can cause **overheating**, **insulation damage**, or
even **fire**.
* Because soldered joints are more likely to loosen, they are
**considered less safe** in fixed installations where ongoing
maintenance isn’t practical.
---
### 📘 **EU Wiring Standards – Specifically EN 60364 / IEC 60364**
* These are the European and international standards for electrical
installations.
* They require that connections be **"durable, mechanically secure,
and protected against stress."**
* **Screw terminals, spring clamps, crimp connectors,** and other
mechanical fasteners are **approved methods** because they ensure
strong, reliable connections.
---
### ✔️ OK in Electronics, Not in Fixed Wiring
* **Soldering is perfectly fine** and standard in **circuit boards**,
electronics, and small appliances.
* But in **fixed electrical wiring** (e.g. behind your walls),
**soldering is discouraged or banned** as the sole method of connection.
---
### ✅ Bottom Line:
The EU restricts soldered connections in permanent wiring **becausethey are not mechanically reliable on their own**. Safe connections
must be both **electrically sound** and **mechanically strong**, which
solder alone doesn’t guarantee.
Let me know if you'd like references from the standards or help with
specific national codes like the UK’s BS 7671 (IET Wiring Regulations).
Ok ... first, you're not supposed to rely on the solder
for mechanical strength - hence the TWIST+solder dictum.
And THEN you put a twistie over it all ... and a little
tape wrap ain't bad either in case the plastic twistie
ever cracks.
Second, skip the marginal wiring - solder may add a
zillionth of an ohm. On the PLUS though it excludes
oxygen and corrosives that WILL, later, cause bad
connections and fatal overheating.
Fuses/breakers will NOT see those overheating connections.
Sorry, don't know what "truths" UK regulators were
using here - maybe WORST POSSIBLE construction cases ?
On 01/09/2025 11:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to replace
the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow thicker
cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means digging a
small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and paint the
walls back.
So I'm not doing it. Aiming instead to move to a flat, then the buyer
will probably demolish the house.
Lol. That reminds me of my experience in Johannesburg. My boss has moved
into a brand new factory unit owned by a fellow German. Apart from the uninsulated tin roof, everything else was concrete.
And the lights didn't work, Switches switched nothing. Sockets had no
power.
So I was informed that a 'electrical firm' would be coming in to fix it
all po.
Imagine my surprise when I hear a south london accent and "come on you
lazy black bastards, let's get to work, and a British ex-pat wandered in
with two black Africans grinning from ear to ear ...
He tackled me as soon as he heard me speak "what works?" he said.
"Nothing" I said, "No one knows where the cables run", "Who built it?" "German company"
"Fucking Krauts - cant handle the black buggers. Still think they are
the fucking master race. OK - the secret is they are better bastards
than I used to work in in England, but you have to treat them right.
Shout and yell to keep them moving, but always play fair, and they love
you and call you 'Baas' and they are happy and will die for you.. "
"OK fuck this for a gameof soldiers SOLOMON! - go to the bakky and get
the Kanga - we are going to have to chip out all this concrete and lay
new conduit and that will be quicker than working out where the existing stuff goes."
And they did. Only took a couple of days of shouting swearing, hurling
of racial insults cajoling, bribing with cool drinks and that happy crew
had all the concrete chipped out and new pipes installed ready to lay
the new circuits.
A lesson in cost benefit analysis for electrical wiring AND a lesson in racial politics in that country.
The point was, he *liked* his boys, and they *liked* him. So the insults meant nothing. What counted was kindness and looking out for them and
paying them decent money and not patronising them.
A lesson that is worth knowing whenever you gave to employ people who
know less than you...
My house is too old now, and too low to the ground.
Only logical would be to literally tear it down and
rebuild fresh up on piers. Alas it's also full of
STUFF.
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
On 2025-09-01 12:56, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 11:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to
replace the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow
thicker cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means
digging a small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and
paint the walls back.
So I'm not doing it. Aiming instead to move to a flat, then the buyer
will probably demolish the house.
Lol. That reminds me of my experience in Johannesburg. My boss has
moved into a brand new factory unit owned by a fellow German. Apart
from the uninsulated tin roof, everything else was concrete.
And the lights didn't work, Switches switched nothing. Sockets had no
power.
So I was informed that a 'electrical firm' would be coming in to fix
it all po.
Imagine my surprise when I hear a south london accent and "come on you
lazy black bastards, let's get to work, and a British ex-pat wandered
in with two black Africans grinning from ear to ear ...
He tackled me as soon as he heard me speak "what works?" he said.
"Nothing" I said, "No one knows where the cables run", "Who built it?"
"German company"
"Fucking Krauts - cant handle the black buggers. Still think they are
the fucking master race. OK - the secret is they are better bastards
than I used to work in in England, but you have to treat them right.
Shout and yell to keep them moving, but always play fair, and they
love you and call you 'Baas' and they are happy and will die for you.. "
"OK fuck this for a gameof soldiers SOLOMON! - go to the bakky and get
the Kanga - we are going to have to chip out all this concrete and lay
new conduit and that will be quicker than working out where the
existing stuff goes."
And they did. Only took a couple of days of shouting swearing, hurling
of racial insults cajoling, bribing with cool drinks and that happy
crew had all the concrete chipped out and new pipes installed ready to
lay the new circuits.
A lesson in cost benefit analysis for electrical wiring AND a lesson
in racial politics in that country.
The point was, he *liked* his boys, and they *liked* him. So the
insults meant nothing. What counted was kindness and looking out for
them and paying them decent money and not patronising them.
A lesson that is worth knowing whenever you gave to employ people who
know less than you...
Heh. Here electricians don't do the conduits. You need to call a
contractor, who first call bricklayers, then the painters. When done,
call the electricians.
Ok, it is very possible that an electrician firm has some bricklayers on their phone book or speeddial.
On 9/1/25 5:58 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 21:27, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust is
a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat up
after some years.
My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some
points when they go into some device.
And now I have learned that soldered connections are prohibited by the
code in most of the EU. It is considered dangerous.
For an explanation, I had to ask chatgpt. I asked again (the original
answer is gone from my browser), the answer is slightly different:
Q: Could you explain why the electric code in the EU prohibits
soldered connections? English, please.
Yes, absolutely. In the **EU**, soldered connections are **not
completely prohibited**, but their use is **restricted or
discouraged** in **certain permanent wiring installations**,
especially in fixed electrical systems like household or commercial
building wiring.
Here’s **why**:
---
### 🔧 **Soldered Connections Can Be Mechanically Weak**
* **Solder alone doesn't provide strong mechanical strength.**
If a wire is only soldered (without a mechanical connector like a
terminal block or screw clamp), the connection can **break or loosen**
under stress, vibration, or heat cycles.
* **Solder can deform over time.**
It softens at relatively low temperatures. If the connection heats
up (even slightly under normal use), the solder may **creep** or
**change shape**, causing a loose or unreliable connection.
---
### 🔥 **Fire Safety & Overheating Risks**
* A **loose connection** increases electrical resistance, which can
generate heat.
* Over time, this can cause **overheating**, **insulation damage**, or
even **fire**.
* Because soldered joints are more likely to loosen, they are
**considered less safe** in fixed installations where ongoing
maintenance isn’t practical.
---
### 📘 **EU Wiring Standards – Specifically EN 60364 / IEC 60364**
* These are the European and international standards for electrical
installations.
* They require that connections be **"durable, mechanically secure,
and protected against stress."**
* **Screw terminals, spring clamps, crimp connectors,** and other
mechanical fasteners are **approved methods** because they ensure
strong, reliable connections.
---
### ✔️ OK in Electronics, Not in Fixed Wiring
* **Soldering is perfectly fine** and standard in **circuit boards**,
electronics, and small appliances.
* But in **fixed electrical wiring** (e.g. behind your walls),
**soldering is discouraged or banned** as the sole method of connection.
---
### ✅ Bottom Line:
The EU restricts soldered connections in permanent wiring **becausethey are not mechanically reliable on their own**. Safe connections
must be both **electrically sound** and **mechanically strong**, which
solder alone doesn’t guarantee.
Let me know if you'd like references from the standards or help with
specific national codes like the UK’s BS 7671 (IET Wiring Regulations).
Ok ... first, you're not supposed to rely on the solder
for mechanical strength - hence the TWIST+solder dictum.
And THEN you put a twistie over it all ... and a little
tape wrap ain't bad either in case the plastic twistie
ever cracks.
Second, skip the marginal wiring - solder may add a
zillionth of an ohm. On the PLUS though it excludes
oxygen and corrosives that WILL, later, cause bad
connections and fatal overheating.
Fuses/breakers will NOT see those overheating connections.
Sorry, don't know what "truths" UK regulators were
using here - maybe WORST POSSIBLE construction cases ?
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
It is a century old house with outer walls of stone and mortar/concrete,
and inner walls of brick (some of them solid brick), built on what was a swamp, so there is humidity creeping from the soil. Quite cold in
winter, unheatable, despite the mild Mediterranean climate. Oh, and I
have cracked walls, too.
The entire district is "protected". If you tear down the house, you have
to rebuild with the same outside aspect.
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.
I believe well done soldered joints reduce the resistance.
On 01/09/2025 12:24, c186282 wrote:
My house is too old now, and too low to the ground.
Only logical would be to literally tear it down and
rebuild fresh up on piers. Alas it's also full of
STUFF.
That's what I ended up doing. Tear down and start again
STUFF went into steel shipping containers...or the skip
On 01/09/2025 10:58, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The EU restricts soldered connections in permanent wiring **because
they are not mechanically reliable on their own**. Safe connections
must be both **electrically sound** and **mechanically strong**, which
solder alone doesn’t guarantee.
Let me know if you'd like references from the standards or help with
specific national codes like the UK’s BS 7671 (IET Wiring Regulations).
Yes. Rules are made for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men...
Soldering works, Arguably a solder joint that melts before the wires do
is no worse than the wire itself fusing. Just it may happen at a lower current.
The real issue is of course the mechanical support of a soldered
connection., It stiffens stranded wire and makes it easy to fatigue it
under flexing.
BUT, consider a fully supported solder joint, inside heat shrink...it
doesn't matter if the solder melts. It's still conductive isn't it? It
can't fall apart...
The real problem is the badly made solder joint by an amateur, and
believe me the average electrician sits only two steps above Neanderthal.*
*labourers and navvies who can just about dig trenches *are*
Neanderthals, A bricklayer who can lay a straight course of bricks is a
step above. As are plumbers and plasterers.
Carpenters who can do framing are two steps above along with electricians. But they are all sub human.
On 9/1/25 6:05 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 11:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 09:30, c186282 wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how much of this kind of stuff is REAL
and how much is INVENTED to profit various commercial
entities.
Why ... we'll just have to replace EVERY outlet, maybe
every inch of wire, in your house ! What's THAT cost ?
What percent is profit ?
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in
1953 had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
Around about 1970 that was obsolete and the rubber used was starting
to crumble. Still safe in steel conduit though.
Then extra wiring was needed for more power more machines and more
sockets,. That was extended in the modern style and a new fusebox
fitted.
UK building regulations are *not* retrospective, houses built to old
standards are allowed to exist, but not modernised extended or
rebuilt to old standards.
Modern wiring with Twin and earth PVC cable is only to be installed
*if* the old wiring constitutes a danger, and its typically the
insurance company who will kick up a fuss.
Rewiring a house is not that expensive. Normally it's done every 60
years or so when major refurbishment happens when a house is sold.
Profit for whom? The sockets are dirt cheap - less than $2 in USA
terms, unless you want them gold plated...or made of brass..
Wire is cheap too. The biggest cost is simply labour - to pull the
wires and connect them up. It's about 1/2 hr per socket. Pulling
wires may take weeks if the paths are long and contorted
Fuse boxes (consumer units) are quite cheap but modern MCBS are a tad
pricey.
So an electricity upgrade is in the thousands of dollars range, but
seldom in the tens of thousands.
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to replace
the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow thicker
cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means digging a
small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and paint the
walls back.
So I'm not doing it. Aiming instead to move to a flat, then the buyer
will probably demolish the house.
Steel/aluminum flex conduit MAY save you here. However
getting it down what's left of the existing conduits,
probably half-inch, may not work.
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
It is a century old house with outer walls of stone and mortar/concrete,
and inner walls of brick (some of them solid brick), built on what was a swamp, so there is humidity creeping from the soil. Quite cold in
winter, unheatable, despite the mild Mediterranean climate. Oh, and I
have cracked walls, too.
The entire district is "protected". If you tear down the house, you have
to rebuild with the same outside aspect.
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.
On 01/09/2025 12:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 12:56, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Well its the same here sort of. But electricians need to be able to lay conduit and that means use a kango...in concrete
On 01/09/2025 11:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to
replace the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow
thicker cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means
digging a small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and
paint the walls back.
So I'm not doing it. Aiming instead to move to a flat, then the
buyer will probably demolish the house.
Lol. That reminds me of my experience in Johannesburg. My boss has
moved into a brand new factory unit owned by a fellow German. Apart
from the uninsulated tin roof, everything else was concrete.
And the lights didn't work, Switches switched nothing. Sockets had no
power.
So I was informed that a 'electrical firm' would be coming in to fix
it all po.
Imagine my surprise when I hear a south london accent and "come on
you lazy black bastards, let's get to work, and a British ex-pat
wandered in with two black Africans grinning from ear to ear ...
He tackled me as soon as he heard me speak "what works?" he said.
"Nothing" I said, "No one knows where the cables run", "Who built
it?" "German company"
"Fucking Krauts - cant handle the black buggers. Still think they are
the fucking master race. OK - the secret is they are better bastards
than I used to work in in England, but you have to treat them right.
Shout and yell to keep them moving, but always play fair, and they
love you and call you 'Baas' and they are happy and will die for you.. " >>>
"OK fuck this for a gameof soldiers SOLOMON! - go to the bakky and
get the Kanga - we are going to have to chip out all this concrete
and lay new conduit and that will be quicker than working out where
the existing stuff goes."
And they did. Only took a couple of days of shouting swearing,
hurling of racial insults cajoling, bribing with cool drinks and that
happy crew had all the concrete chipped out and new pipes installed
ready to lay the new circuits.
A lesson in cost benefit analysis for electrical wiring AND a lesson
in racial politics in that country.
The point was, he *liked* his boys, and they *liked* him. So the
insults meant nothing. What counted was kindness and looking out for
them and paying them decent money and not patronising them.
A lesson that is worth knowing whenever you gave to employ people
who know less than you...
Heh. Here electricians don't do the conduits. You need to call a
contractor, who first call bricklayers, then the painters. When done,
call the electricians.
Ok, it is very possible that an electrician firm has some bricklayers
on their phone book or speeddial.
I mean anyone can use a kango, unless some safety regulation prohibits
it...
On 9/1/25 7:31 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
It is a century old house with outer walls of stone and mortar/
concrete, and inner walls of brick (some of them solid brick), built
on what was a swamp, so there is humidity creeping from the soil.
Quite cold in winter, unheatable, despite the mild Mediterranean
climate. Oh, and I have cracked walls, too.
The entire district is "protected". If you tear down the house, you
have to rebuild with the same outside aspect.
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.
Brick/stone/humidity ... sounds like my place - except
it's HEAT, not cold, that's the usual problem :-)
Last, probably final, big investment was in a metal-
sheathed roof. That ought to hold for awhile.
On 9/1/25 7:28 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 12:24, c186282 wrote:
My house is too old now, and too low to the ground.
Only logical would be to literally tear it down and
rebuild fresh up on piers. Alas it's also full of
STUFF.
That's what I ended up doing. Tear down and start again
STUFF went into steel shipping containers...or the skip
I'm kind of the last relative ... meaning all
the OTHER relatives precious stuff wound up HERE :-)
No, not into e-bay.
On 01/09/2025 12:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Wonderful;. I'd love to take that on, given the money.
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
It is a century old house with outer walls of stone and mortar/
concrete, and inner walls of brick (some of them solid brick), built
on what was a swamp, so there is humidity creeping from the soil.
Quite cold in winter, unheatable, despite the mild Mediterranean
climate. Oh, and I have cracked walls, too.
The entire district is "protected". If you tear down the house, you
have to rebuild with the same outside aspect.
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.
Reminds me of someone I knew who bought a 'listed' (protected) building.
But it was the outside appearance that was 'listed' the builder built a
new house inside the outer structure, insulated and cosy. Complete with
a second layer of window glazing.
And the damp is in the original walls, but they have a layer of
waterproofing and insulation over them before the inner house is reached..,
On 2025-09-01 12:30, c186282 wrote:
On 9/1/25 5:58 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 21:27, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/27/25 8:40 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 27/08/2025 9:06 pm, Graham J wrote:
Paul wrote:
[snip useful figures]
...
120v requires slightly larger wires. You WANT 12ga but
beware cheap-ass contractors who try to sneak in 14ga
to save a few bucks. On the plus, 120v is less dangerous
than 240v.
Except fire-wise :-)
Only if you let the contractor fudge it :-)
If building a brand new house now I'd insist
on 10ga for 20a breakers - a fair safety margin.
Very worth the slight extra expense.
A guy I know CAUGHT the contractor putting 14ga
on 20a circuits - made him tear it all out and
do-over. NEVER count on 'inspectors' - they
don't WANT to see anything and some get brown
envelopes full of cash too.
Good.
On most places, I guess the connections are not soldered, and rust
is a possibility. Then there are sockets and switches. They can heat
up after some years.
My existing house is OLD - early '50s. Most of
the original wiring was twist+SOLDER splices
and industrial Romex and most is also in metal
conduit. Don't know HOW they did solder in the
old days - giant iron, pot ? DOES bar oxygen and
corrosion though. The builder built it for HIMSELF
and did live there for a few years.
I re-wired part of my house, cables are soldered except at some
points when they go into some device.
And now I have learned that soldered connections are prohibited by
the code in most of the EU. It is considered dangerous.
For an explanation, I had to ask chatgpt. I asked again (the original
answer is gone from my browser), the answer is slightly different:
Q: Could you explain why the electric code in the EU prohibits
soldered connections? English, please.
Yes, absolutely. In the **EU**, soldered connections are **not
completely prohibited**, but their use is **restricted or
discouraged** in **certain permanent wiring installations**,
especially in fixed electrical systems like household or commercial
building wiring.
Here’s **why**:
---
### 🔧 **Soldered Connections Can Be Mechanically Weak**
* **Solder alone doesn't provide strong mechanical strength.**
If a wire is only soldered (without a mechanical connector like a
terminal block or screw clamp), the connection can **break or
loosen** under stress, vibration, or heat cycles.
* **Solder can deform over time.**
It softens at relatively low temperatures. If the connection heats
up (even slightly under normal use), the solder may **creep** or
**change shape**, causing a loose or unreliable connection.
---
### 🔥 **Fire Safety & Overheating Risks**
* A **loose connection** increases electrical resistance, which can
generate heat.
* Over time, this can cause **overheating**, **insulation damage**,
or even **fire**.
* Because soldered joints are more likely to loosen, they are
**considered less safe** in fixed installations where ongoing
maintenance isn’t practical.
---
### 📘 **EU Wiring Standards – Specifically EN 60364 / IEC 60364**
* These are the European and international standards for electrical
installations.
* They require that connections be **"durable, mechanically secure,
and protected against stress."**
* **Screw terminals, spring clamps, crimp connectors,** and other
mechanical fasteners are **approved methods** because they ensure
strong, reliable connections.
---
### ✔️ OK in Electronics, Not in Fixed Wiring
* **Soldering is perfectly fine** and standard in **circuit boards**,
electronics, and small appliances.
* But in **fixed electrical wiring** (e.g. behind your walls),
**soldering is discouraged or banned** as the sole method of connection. >>>
---
### ✅ Bottom Line:
The EU restricts soldered connections in permanent wiring**because they are not mechanically reliable on their own**. Safe
connections must be both **electrically sound** and **mechanically
strong**, which solder alone doesn’t guarantee.
Let me know if you'd like references from the standards or help with
specific national codes like the UK’s BS 7671 (IET Wiring Regulations). >>
Ok ... first, you're not supposed to rely on the solder
for mechanical strength - hence the TWIST+solder dictum.
Indeed.
And THEN you put a twistie over it all ... and a little
tape wrap ain't bad either in case the plastic twistie
ever cracks.
Second, skip the marginal wiring - solder may add a
zillionth of an ohm. On the PLUS though it excludes
oxygen and corrosives that WILL, later, cause bad
connections and fatal overheating.
I believe well done soldered joints reduce the resistance.
Fuses/breakers will NOT see those overheating connections.
Sorry, don't know what "truths" UK regulators were
using here - maybe WORST POSSIBLE construction cases ?
On 9/1/25 7:34 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 12:30, c186282 wrote:
On 9/1/25 5:58 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 21:27, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 15:24, c186282 wrote:
On 8/28/25 7:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-28 06:53, c186282 wrote:
And THEN you put a twistie over it all ... and a little
tape wrap ain't bad either in case the plastic twistie
ever cracks.
Second, skip the marginal wiring - solder may add a
zillionth of an ohm. On the PLUS though it excludes
oxygen and corrosives that WILL, later, cause bad
connections and fatal overheating.
I believe well done soldered joints reduce the resistance.
Well, maybe depends. It does add a a very thin layer
of lead/tin which is a bit less conductive. On the
plus it fills gaps, increasing contact area. The
anti-oxidation feature does seem worth it, esp in
more hostile climes. Really don't want to wake up
to the ceiling being on fire.
Fuses/breakers will NOT see those overheating connections.
Sorry, don't know what "truths" UK regulators were
using here - maybe WORST POSSIBLE construction cases ?
Read somewhere that there now MAY be breakers, or at
least add-ons, that will detect voltage drop from
deteriorating connections. This seems a good thing.
On 01/09/2025 12:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I believe well done soldered joints reduce the resistance.
It depends. Solder is more resistive than copper, but if you use plenty
of it.
Apropos of nothing I once connected a Shottky diode across a brushed DC
motor to clamp RF spikes, and accidentally soldered it the wrong way round...it got very hot, smoked and *melted all the solder*.
To my surprise, it survived...
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have
to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
entirely. And unless I certify, the electricity company refuses to
increase the Amps, which is why my house is limited to 10A.
Instead, I'll move house.
On 2025-09-01 13:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 12:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Wonderful;. I'd love to take that on, given the money.
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
It is a century old house with outer walls of stone and mortar/
concrete, and inner walls of brick (some of them solid brick), built
on what was a swamp, so there is humidity creeping from the soil.
Quite cold in winter, unheatable, despite the mild Mediterranean
climate. Oh, and I have cracked walls, too.
The entire district is "protected". If you tear down the house, you
have to rebuild with the same outside aspect.
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.
:-)
Reminds me of someone I knew who bought a 'listed' (protected)
building. But it was the outside appearance that was 'listed' the
builder built a new house inside the outer structure, insulated and
cosy. Complete with a second layer of window glazing.
Yes, that is what they do. I think it is possible to also tear down the
outer walls and rebuild with the same aspect, but I have not seen that
done.
It is an entire district which is listed (was built by the same architect).
And the damp is in the original walls, but they have a layer of
waterproofing and insulation over them before the inner house is
reached..,
The outer walls of stone don't draw water, but the main inner wall is
built of solid bricks, and it does. Also some of the separation walls
between houses. My father removed the floor, dug the filling dirt, and
poured stones. This cured a lot of the humidity, but the walls go down
to the foundations, so he could not touch them much.
On 31/08/2025 5:18 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 22:33:04 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 30/08/2025 4:36 am, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher"William the Bastard"?? Is/was he a Yank President or something??
wrote:
On 28/08/2025 19:51, rbowman wrote:
They keep starting the financing spiel even when you've toldCheck? What's a check?
them you'll be writing a check.
American English sees no need to spell it cheque. Or do you
really say chay cue? I was surprised that you really do say
whinging to rhyme with hinge. William the Bastard really did
screw the language up.
I think there was some discussion about Clinton's parentage
Clinton hadn't even entered my train of thought!! I had thought you
might have been referring to an 1800's Pres.
but I had in mind the Frenchy who brought some Romanized mishmash to
the island to blend in with the existing mishmash.
I mean who should know The English Language better than the
English?? ;-P
Now if they could learn to speak it. I've enjoyed several Australian
shows like 'Mystery Road'. I don't have a problem understanding the
dialogue which is more than I can say for some British police
procedurals.
'Mystery Road' is a nice little Aussie Crime Drama .... set in the
absolutely gorgeous Outback.
Sort of "Doctor Who"'ish .... The first series featured a 40'ish Main character, later series featured a 20s Main character .... which is
about to reappear on Aussie T.V. in a couple of weeks.
--I will admit I thought the kid's name was Molly before I say it'Molly' was the guy who presented Australia's main Pop Video Show
spelled Marley on a poster. Otherwise WA looked very familiar
although I've never been there.
"Countdown" back in the 70's/80's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Meldrum
On 8/30/25 5:30 PM, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit >>>>>>> with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I >>>>>> have AC.
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to
upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of
rewiring. With a 100 amp service, the copde would only allow me to
have 5kW of solar generation power. So that option was cost prohibitive.
So I put in a 14kW natiural gas powered generator to use when wildfires
take the grid down. Comes on in 10 seconds when the power drops.
At work, we have a couple of window A/C units. Each of them shares
a 10 amp circuit (1200 W) with some other minor things such as lamps
desktop computers. I doubt they draw more than 800W. I.e. similar to a
microwave oven.
An yes, we also have a central HVAC system at that house. No problem.
Ya know ..... I think you were being conned by those
hoping for a huge profit from re-working your whole
system.
So long as your inverter didn't deliver more than 100a
regardless, your existing service would have been fine.
100a should usually be enough for an 'average home', so
you could have put the extra money into more batteries.
Now if you ran out and just HAD to buy a nine room "McMansion"
in 90s ... well. Probably takes 100a just to juice the hot tub
and mini-Olympic pool ! :-)
Note there are several contributors to this thread. Some
are USA, some are UK or Oz. The USA home systems are always
240/120v while the UK is 240v-all. 100a at 240 is the same
amount of *energy* as 200a at 120.
On Sun, 31 Aug 2025 21:45:00 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 31/08/2025 6:20 am, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 02:19:18 -0400, c186282 wrote:'Hell's Angels'?? Is that spelled correctly?? ;-P
Regardless, those kind of machines were NOT a great idea. Too
LARGE,
too subject to WIND influences. LOOKED really cool though ...
After WWI the US copied a captured Zepplin. Unfortunately it was a
height climber, designed for one thing only -- getting higher than the
ceiling of the Brit aeroplanes, not durability.
https://sped2work.tripod.com/zeppelins.html
'Hell's Angels' is well worth watching if you've never seen it.
For Hughes' movie, yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell's_Angels_(film)
For the bikers, no.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hells_Angels
"According to the Hells Angels' website, they are aware that there is an apostrophe missing in "Hells", but "... it is you who miss it. We don't"."
If you want to argue punctuation with an Angel, feel free.
On 31/08/2025 9:09 pm, Daniel70 wrote:
'Mystery Road' is a nice little Aussie Crime Drama .... set in the
absolutely gorgeous Outback.
Sort of "Doctor Who"'ish .... The first series featured a 40'ish Main
character, later series featured a 20s Main character .... which is
about to reappear on Aussie T.V. in a couple of weeks.
Hmm!! Looking up IMDB, it shows 2hr film in 2013 followed by a series in
2018 then what I refered to as 'later series' in 2022.
So it seems these people take their time!!
On 1/09/2025 12:51 pm, c186282 wrote:
On 8/30/25 5:30 PM, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit >>>>>>>> with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation. Yes, I >>>>>>> have AC.
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10 amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have to
upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot of
rewiring. With a 100 amp service, the copde would only allow me to
have 5kW of solar generation power. So that option was cost prohibitive. >>> So I put in a 14kW natiural gas powered generator to use when wildfires
take the grid down. Comes on in 10 seconds when the power drops.
At work, we have a couple of window A/C units. Each of them shares
a 10 amp circuit (1200 W) with some other minor things such as lamps
desktop computers. I doubt they draw more than 800W. I.e. similar to a
microwave oven.
An yes, we also have a central HVAC system at that house. No problem.
Ya know ..... I think you were being conned by those
hoping for a huge profit from re-working your whole
system.
So long as your inverter didn't deliver more than 100a
regardless, your existing service would have been fine.
100a should usually be enough for an 'average home', so
you could have put the extra money into more batteries.
Now if you ran out and just HAD to buy a nine room "McMansion"
in 90s ... well. Probably takes 100a just to juice the hot tub
and mini-Olympic pool ! :-)
Note there are several contributors to this thread. Some
are USA, some are UK or Oz. The USA home systems are always
240/120v while the UK is 240v-all. 100a at 240 is the same
amount of *energy* as 200a at 120.
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is 240V
RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
On 9/1/25 1:31 AM, Ian wrote:
c186282 wrote:
On 8/30/25 5:30 PM, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit >>>>>>>>> with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation.
Yes, I have AC.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10
amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have
to upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot
of rewiring. With a 100 amp service, the copde would only allow me
to have 5kW of solar generation power. So that option was cost
prohibitive. So I put in a 14kW natiural gas powered generator to
use when wildfires take the grid down. Comes on in 10 seconds when
the power drops.
At work, we have a couple of window A/C units. Each of them shares
a 10 amp circuit (1200 W) with some other minor things such as
lamps desktop computers. I doubt they draw more than 800W. I.e.
similar to a microwave oven.
An yes, we also have a central HVAC system at that house. No
problem.
Ya know ..... I think you were being conned by those
hoping for a huge profit from re-working your whole
system.
So long as your inverter didn't deliver more than 100a
regardless, your existing service would have been fine.
100a should usually be enough for an 'average home', so
you could have put the extra money into more batteries.
Now if you ran out and just HAD to buy a nine room "McMansion"
in 90s ... well. Probably takes 100a just to juice the hot tub
and mini-Olympic pool ! :-)
Note there are several contributors to this thread. Some
are USA, some are UK or Oz. The USA home systems are always
240/120v while the UK is 240v-all. 100a at 240 is the same
amount of *energy* as 200a at 120.
Look up a schematic for common home breaker boxes - "Square-D"
is typical for the USA. There are various vertical 'rails' the
breakers plug into. The 120v breakers plug into the left or
right side 'hots' and then to the neutral. 240v stuff, stoves,
A/C units, are always 'double-size' breakers and plug into
rails that reach across the 240 rails. Your electrician is
SUPPOSED to kind of balance the predicted loads so you
don't have too many breakers of a given kind on one rail
and 'side'. If the A/C is on the right, put the stove
on the left.
Now what I've never heard a good reason for are the HUGE
ugly appliance plugs used in the UK. Somehow I don't see
a table lamp using 100 amps at 240v nor have I seen any
24,000w light bulbs at the hardware store :-)
They used to have 3 kinds of ugly plugs, for circuits of different
current capacities, 2, 13 and 15a if I remember correctly. Then they
standardized on 13a, but kept the ugly.
Any idea WHY ???
USA, the plugs are just good/big enough and pretty
aesthetic. Even for an electric stove the bigger 50a
plugs are still fairly compact and aesthetic. There
are SOME 30a plugs too - kind of mid-sized, typically
one of the poles is 'sideways'. See 'em on small
generators a lot.
Oh, 13a at 240v ... over 2700 watts. Wow !
Guess your clock-radio won't overload THOSE ! :-)
We MAY just be looking at "first-ness" here - the
UK coming to a very early, maybe premature, standard
back when materials were still crap. NOW they
cannot change .......
USA ... dedicated neutrals were slowly introduced
in the 60s/70s. Had to trim the 'fatter' neutrals
more than once because it was easier than replacing
the old socket. Old - usually metal-cased - tools
and appliances COULD shock the shit out of you
before the new standard. Ya didn't know WHICH
prong was neutral unless you had a meter. Have
an old mechanical calculator - "Marchant" - a
zillion gears and cogs and at least two motors.
Super-fun to watch it work - BUT even the cord
just had two blacks, and if you plugged it in
wrong it WOULD shock the shit out of you.
So, kind of happy for the dedicated neutral now
AND the addition of the round ground prong. Got
shocked more than enough ! Fortunately, old US
wall plug design had enough space for the new
ground prongs without changing the old geometry.
Can STILL buy adapters though - a 2-prong thing
with a loose ground wire hanging out. Generally
you attach it to the outlet cover-screw. Not
perfect but better than nothing.
c186282 wrote:
On 9/1/25 1:31 AM, Ian wrote:
c186282 wrote:
On 8/30/25 5:30 PM, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2025-08-29 10:35, c186282 wrote:
*60* amps ??????????????? Can't even start a decent A/C unit >>>>>>>>>> with 60 amps.
The USA standard is *200* amps.
On 29/08/2025 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My entire house is 10 amps, at 230 volts. Old installation.
Yes, I have AC.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 04:52:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
You can't even start the smallest window A/C unit on 10
amps.
On 2025-08-30, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Lucky me, I've never had a window A/C unit.
Bull...!
My 1950's house has a 100 amp service. I wanted to add a few more
solar panels, but was told that to add more than 5 panels, I'd have
to upgrade to a 200 amp service, replace the meter box and do a lot
of rewiring. With a 100 amp service, the copde would only allow me
to have 5kW of solar generation power. So that option was cost
prohibitive. So I put in a 14kW natiural gas powered generator to
use when wildfires take the grid down. Comes on in 10 seconds when
the power drops.
At work, we have a couple of window A/C units. Each of them shares
a 10 amp circuit (1200 W) with some other minor things such as
lamps desktop computers. I doubt they draw more than 800W. I.e.
similar to a microwave oven.
An yes, we also have a central HVAC system at that house. No
problem.
Ya know ..... I think you were being conned by those
hoping for a huge profit from re-working your whole
system.
So long as your inverter didn't deliver more than 100a
regardless, your existing service would have been fine.
100a should usually be enough for an 'average home', so
you could have put the extra money into more batteries.
Now if you ran out and just HAD to buy a nine room "McMansion"
in 90s ... well. Probably takes 100a just to juice the hot tub
and mini-Olympic pool ! :-)
Note there are several contributors to this thread. Some
are USA, some are UK or Oz. The USA home systems are always
240/120v while the UK is 240v-all. 100a at 240 is the same
amount of *energy* as 200a at 120.
Look up a schematic for common home breaker boxes - "Square-D"
is typical for the USA. There are various vertical 'rails' the
breakers plug into. The 120v breakers plug into the left or
right side 'hots' and then to the neutral. 240v stuff, stoves,
A/C units, are always 'double-size' breakers and plug into
rails that reach across the 240 rails. Your electrician is
SUPPOSED to kind of balance the predicted loads so you
don't have too many breakers of a given kind on one rail
and 'side'. If the A/C is on the right, put the stove
on the left.
Now what I've never heard a good reason for are the HUGE
ugly appliance plugs used in the UK. Somehow I don't see
a table lamp using 100 amps at 240v nor have I seen any
24,000w light bulbs at the hardware store :-)
They used to have 3 kinds of ugly plugs, for circuits of different
current capacities, 2, 13 and 15a if I remember correctly. Then they
standardized on 13a, but kept the ugly.
Any idea WHY ???
USA, the plugs are just good/big enough and pretty
aesthetic. Even for an electric stove the bigger 50a
plugs are still fairly compact and aesthetic. There
are SOME 30a plugs too - kind of mid-sized, typically
one of the poles is 'sideways'. See 'em on small
generators a lot.
Oh, 13a at 240v ... over 2700 watts. Wow !
Guess your clock-radio won't overload THOSE ! :-)
We MAY just be looking at "first-ness" here - the
UK coming to a very early, maybe premature, standard
back when materials were still crap. NOW they
cannot change .......
USA ... dedicated neutrals were slowly introduced
in the 60s/70s. Had to trim the 'fatter' neutrals
more than once because it was easier than replacing
the old socket. Old - usually metal-cased - tools
and appliances COULD shock the shit out of you
before the new standard. Ya didn't know WHICH
prong was neutral unless you had a meter. Have
an old mechanical calculator - "Marchant" - a
zillion gears and cogs and at least two motors.
Super-fun to watch it work - BUT even the cord
just had two blacks, and if you plugged it in
wrong it WOULD shock the shit out of you.
So, kind of happy for the dedicated neutral now
AND the addition of the round ground prong. Got
shocked more than enough ! Fortunately, old US
wall plug design had enough space for the new
ground prongs without changing the old geometry.
Can STILL buy adapters though - a 2-prong thing
with a loose ground wire hanging out. Generally
you attach it to the outlet cover-screw. Not
perfect but better than nothing.
The UK 13a standard plug has a (replaceable) fuse inside. In theory you
can have each appliance with an appropriate fuse, so a fault in one
doesn't take down the whole circuit. In practice, I think most people
have a stock of 15a fuses that they use as replacements....
* **Solder alone doesn't provide strong mechanical strength.**
If a wire is only soldered (without a mechanical connector like a
terminal block or screw clamp), the connection can **break or loosen**
under stress, vibration, or heat cycles.
I believe well done soldered joints reduce the resistance.
Apart from lead free solder being an abomination that almost never works outside a mass production environment and lead being somewhat worse that Satan Himself in modern eco politics
On 2025-09-01, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
I believe well done soldered joints reduce the resistance.
It seems to me, that anywhere you can legally use a connection of
metallic ends that are twisted together, adding solder makes it better.
And from what has been quoted here, it seems to me, that if the soldered joint would be illegal, the twisted joint without solder would be
equally illegal. So iof you are up to it, put solder on it, and don't
worry.
Anyway, USA, almost everything except heavy appliances are 120v,
typically 15a outlets but you can get 20a easily enough. 2-prong
plugs have been standard for a hell of a long time, no dimensional
changes. They DID add a slightly wider 'neutral' prong in the 60s/70s
which was mostly a good thing. Still you can buy adapters ... two
standard prongs and loose ground wire you're supposed to stick behind
the outlet cover screw (USUALLY ground or at least neutral).
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in 1953
had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to replace
the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow thicker
cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means digging a
small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and paint the
walls back.
I just remembered an anecdote. My second car, the first one I bought
myself, the dealer talked my out of installing airbags. This was maybe
1998.
That it was not needed or not safe or that it would delay the sale a
month.
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 12:05:55 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to replace
the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow thicker
cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means digging a
small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and paint the
walls back.
Wiremold? (metallic raceway). It's surface mount and there are elbows
and compatible boxes. It's sort of beige and doesn't look too bad.
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 11:35:07 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I just remembered an anecdote. My second car, the first one I bought
myself, the dealer talked my out of installing airbags. This was maybe
1998.
That it was not needed or not safe or that it would delay the sale a
month.
I don't think that was an option in the US. Seat belts might have been
back in the day. I remember my father getting irate over the charges for 'optional' accessories like a heater. It might have been optional in
Florida but not so much in the north.
In '82 the A/C in the Firebird I bought was an option. I didn't want it
and whined enough that they knocked a few bucks off.
The last three Toyotas came with A/C standard. Parts of other systems are also installed. I don't have remote entry but the door locks are setup for it. I get a collision alert beep but the brakes aren't applied. There is a display for wandering out of my lane but it doesn't correct. The first one did not have a radio but it did have speakers and the harness installed.
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 04:30:44 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Anyway, USA, almost everything except heavy appliances are 120v,
typically 15a outlets but you can get 20a easily enough. 2-prong
plugs have been standard for a hell of a long time, no dimensional
changes. They DID add a slightly wider 'neutral' prong in the 60s/70s
which was mostly a good thing. Still you can buy adapters ... two
standard prongs and loose ground wire you're supposed to stick behind
the outlet cover screw (USUALLY ground or at least neutral).
I've got to get a cheap power strip if I resurrect the old Compaq in the shed. The computer and monitor power cords are 3-prong. In my more
impulsive moments I've been know to cut off the ground prong. That's no different than using and adapter and not bothering with grounding the
little tab.
Oddly the AC weed whacker only has two prongs but I did add a GFI socket
and approved external receptacle for it. I use the same for the heated cat bowl in the winter. I'd rather not fry the little nuisances.
On 01/09/2025 12:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Wonderful;. I'd love to take that on, given the money.
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
It is a century old house with outer walls of stone and
mortar/concrete, and inner walls of brick (some of them solid brick),
built on what was a swamp, so there is humidity creeping from the
soil. Quite cold in winter, unheatable, despite the mild Mediterranean
climate. Oh, and I have cracked walls, too.
The entire district is "protected". If you tear down the house, you
have to rebuild with the same outside aspect.
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.
Reminds me of someone I knew who bought a 'listed' (protected) building.
But it was the outside appearance that was 'listed' the builder built a
new house inside the outer structure, insulated and cosy. Complete with
a second layer of window glazing.
And the damp is in the original walls, but they have a layer of
waterproofing and insulation over them before the inner house is reached..,
On 2025-09-01 12:35, c186282 wrote:
On 9/1/25 6:05 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 11:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 09:30, c186282 wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how much of this kind of stuff is REAL
and how much is INVENTED to profit various commercial
entities.
Why ... we'll just have to replace EVERY outlet, maybe
every inch of wire, in your house ! What's THAT cost ?
What percent is profit ?
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in
1953 had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
Around about 1970 that was obsolete and the rubber used was starting
to crumble. Still safe in steel conduit though.
Then extra wiring was needed for more power more machines and more
sockets,. That was extended in the modern style and a new fusebox
fitted.
UK building regulations are *not* retrospective, houses built to old
standards are allowed to exist, but not modernised extended or
rebuilt to old standards.
Modern wiring with Twin and earth PVC cable is only to be installed
*if* the old wiring constitutes a danger, and its typically the
insurance company who will kick up a fuss.
Rewiring a house is not that expensive. Normally it's done every 60
years or so when major refurbishment happens when a house is sold.
Profit for whom? The sockets are dirt cheap - less than $2 in USA
terms, unless you want them gold plated...or made of brass..
Wire is cheap too. The biggest cost is simply labour - to pull the
wires and connect them up. It's about 1/2 hr per socket. Pulling
wires may take weeks if the paths are long and contorted
Fuse boxes (consumer units) are quite cheap but modern MCBS are a
tad pricey.
So an electricity upgrade is in the thousands of dollars range, but
seldom in the tens of thousands.
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to
replace the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow
thicker cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means
digging a small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and
paint the walls back.
So I'm not doing it. Aiming instead to move to a flat, then the buyer
will probably demolish the house.
Steel/aluminum flex conduit MAY save you here. However
getting it down what's left of the existing conduits,
probably half-inch, may not work.
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yeah, but it's not worth it. I'm getting older. I may not be able to
handle the stairs in the future, I need to move to a flat now that I can handle the moving.
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 04:30:44 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Anyway, USA, almost everything except heavy appliances are 120v,
typically 15a outlets but you can get 20a easily enough. 2-prong
plugs have been standard for a hell of a long time, no dimensional
changes. They DID add a slightly wider 'neutral' prong in the 60s/70s
which was mostly a good thing. Still you can buy adapters ... two
standard prongs and loose ground wire you're supposed to stick behind
the outlet cover screw (USUALLY ground or at least neutral).
I've got to get a cheap power strip if I resurrect the old Compaq in the shed. The computer and monitor power cords are 3-prong. In my more
impulsive moments I've been know to cut off the ground prong. That's no different than using and adapter and not bothering with grounding the
little tab.
Oddly the AC weed whacker only has two prongs but I did add a GFI socket
and approved external receptacle for it. I use the same for the heated cat bowl in the winter. I'd rather not fry the little nuisances.
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 10:55:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in 1953
had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
BX?
https://www.thespruce.com/bx-wire-guide-to-armored-electrical-
cable-1821519
At my first job, first month perhaps, we killed a PC. I don't remember
if it was me or my boss that plugged the centronics connector of a
printer into the PC, and I saw a tiny spark. Sure enough, the printer
port was dead.
As I commented elsewhere, there are so many things "bad", that I'm going
to move to a flat instead, otherwise, yes, surface mount if they allow
it, dunno. I'm aging, so while I still can, before I can't manage the
stairs, I must do the big effort of moving to a flat.
On 9/1/25 7:40 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 12:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Wonderful;. I'd love to take that on, given the money.
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:It is a century old house with outer walls of stone and
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to hide or
some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
mortar/concrete, and inner walls of brick (some of them solid brick),
built on what was a swamp, so there is humidity creeping from the
soil. Quite cold in winter, unheatable, despite the mild Mediterranean
climate. Oh, and I have cracked walls, too.
The entire district is "protected". If you tear down the house, you
have to rebuild with the same outside aspect.
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.
Reminds me of someone I knew who bought a 'listed' (protected)
building. But it was the outside appearance that was 'listed' the
builder built a new house inside the outer structure, insulated and
cosy. Complete with a second layer of window glazing.
Now that's clever - and a smart way to circumvent 'historical' regs
:-)
I once wanted a 2/3 floor house ... but now that I'm old I'm glad I
never bought one. Know a number of old people who've had to basically
abandon the top floor of their homes because it's not safe to climb
stairs anymore and they can't get a 'chair-lift' for various reasons.
At the time they talked me out of the airbag, they were optional. I
wanted them, but the delay for getting them was long. The AC was
optional, but I was absolutely certain I wanted it: driving with 40°C is
not nice in a metal box. Of course, now the airbag is not optional. And nobody chooses no AC: the choice is actually plain AC or "climatization"
(AC with automatic temperature control).
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 12:05:55 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
My house needs an electrical upgrade, but the first task is to replace
the tubing, the current one is too narrow and will not allow thicker
cables (and more cables). And to replace the tubing means digging a
small trench in the brick walls, then close the trench and paint the
walls back.
Wiremold? (metallic raceway). It's surface mount and there are elbows
and compatible boxes. It's sort of beige and doesn't look too bad.
LABOR (and SKILL) involved with rigid conduit these days seems to be
more and more rare. It takes special skill to get all the bends right
and not many seem to have that skill anymore. It's also just a lot
more (expensive) WORK. My old man, mil/industrial electric, was a
whiz at bends, but TODAY .....
So, IMHO, EMBRACE the concept of 'exposed' wiring and plumbing. Find
ways to make it look good. When something DOES - always will - go
wrong then it's EASY to cope.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 02:30:59 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
At my first job, first month perhaps, we killed a PC. I don't remember
if it was me or my boss that plugged the centronics connector of a
printer into the PC, and I saw a tiny spark. Sure enough, the printer
port was dead.
I killed the Centronics port on one machine but I had plugged in a
homegrown EPROM burner and screwed something up. You could do many things with the parallel port that didn't involve a printer. Some used it for dongles. I may have an external Iomega Zip drive around here that used it. 100 MB of removable storage. What more would you ever need?
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 02:21:59 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
At the time they talked me out of the airbag, they were optional. I
wanted them, but the delay for getting them was long. The AC was
optional, but I was absolutely certain I wanted it: driving with 40°C is
not nice in a metal box. Of course, now the airbag is not optional. And
nobody chooses no AC: the choice is actually plain AC or "climatization"
(AC with automatic temperature control).
I've lived most of my life north of 45 degrees. I realize many European cities are further north but on the North American continent 40 C would be very unusual.
I think it hit 35 today and it seldom gets higher. I was reading outside
and at about 2030 I was getting a little chilly and came inside. It's a semi-arid climate so when the sun goes down so does the temperature. It's
be about 12 tonight. 'It's a dry heat' as they say.
When I lived back east there were times when I wished I had A/C when I had
to go south. Even if the temperature isn't extreme the humidity make you
wish you had gills. With one trip in a company van that had vinyl seats I more or less came down with diaper rash. No fun.
Other than a recall for the Toyota exploding air bag model I've never had them deploy. A snowplow turned into my lane an totaled the car but it was only about 20 mph and the glancing blow wasn't sufficient to trigger them.
I think the first family car with seat belts was in '65. Seat belts just like a race car! Considering they were only lap belts they may have been worse than no belt. The best thing they were good for was keeping you
from sliding across the bench seat during spirited cornering. My
girlfriend knew what was coming when I told her to buckle up.
On 9/1/25 7:40 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 12:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Wonderful;. I'd love to take that on, given the money.
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
It is a century old house with outer walls of stone and mortar/
concrete, and inner walls of brick (some of them solid brick), built
on what was a swamp, so there is humidity creeping from the soil.
Quite cold in winter, unheatable, despite the mild Mediterranean
climate. Oh, and I have cracked walls, too.
The entire district is "protected". If you tear down the house, you
have to rebuild with the same outside aspect.
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.
Reminds me of someone I knew who bought a 'listed' (protected)
building. But it was the outside appearance that was 'listed' the
builder built a new house inside the outer structure, insulated and
cosy. Complete with a second layer of window glazing.
Now that's clever - and a smart way to circumvent
'historical' regs :-)
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 22:36:30 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 9/1/25 7:40 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 12:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.Wonderful;. I'd love to take that on, given the money.
Reminds me of someone I knew who bought a 'listed' (protected)
building. But it was the outside appearance that was 'listed' the
builder built a new house inside the outer structure, insulated and
cosy. Complete with a second layer of window glazing.
Now that's clever - and a smart way to circumvent 'historical' regs
:-)
That works. I knew a carpenter that specialized in restoring Victorians.
He wasn't getting rich since nobody could really afford the true costs but
he loved the old craftsmanship, Some of those towers had curved glass.
They don't give that away down at the local glass shop.
https://www.clearywindowrestoration.com/curved_glass_windows
The towers are fun. There isn't much room in them and they're usually accessed via a ladder and through a trap door but if you're at a party and want a quiet space for some reason or the other...
On 9/1/25 7:41 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 12:35, c186282 wrote:
On 9/1/25 6:05 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 11:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 09:30, c186282 wrote:
So I'm not doing it. Aiming instead to move to a flat, then the
buyer will probably demolish the house.
Steel/aluminum flex conduit MAY save you here. However
getting it down what's left of the existing conduits,
probably half-inch, may not work.
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to
hide or some other method.
Yeah, but it's not worth it. I'm getting older. I may not be able to
handle the stairs in the future, I need to move to a flat now that I
can handle the moving.
I once wanted a 2/3 floor house ... but now that I'm
old I'm glad I never bought one. Know a number of old
people who've had to basically abandon the top floor
of their homes because it's not safe to climb stairs
anymore and they can't get a 'chair-lift' for various
reasons.
In any case, fully exposed conduits are the cheapest way
to new circuits. Many decorative options to kind of hide
their nastiness, or maybe you can make them into an
'artistic statement'.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 02:25:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
As I commented elsewhere, there are so many things "bad", that I'm going
to move to a flat instead, otherwise, yes, surface mount if they allow
it, dunno. I'm aging, so while I still can, before I can't manage the
stairs, I must do the big effort of moving to a flat.
I dread ever having to move. More than 3 decades in one place and the crap accumulates. I really have to get into Swedish death cleaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_death_cleaning
c186282 wrote:[...]
Oh, 13a at 240v ... over 2700 watts. Wow !
Guess your clock-radio won't overload THOSE ! :-)
USA ... dedicated neutrals were slowly introduced
in the 60s/70s. Had to trim the 'fatter' neutrals
more than once because it was easier than replacing
the old socket. Old - usually metal-cased - tools
and appliances COULD shock the shit out of you
before the new standard. Ya didn't know WHICH
prong was neutral unless you had a meter. Have
an old mechanical calculator - "Marchant" - a
zillion gears and cogs and at least two motors.
Super-fun to watch it work - BUT even the cord
just had two blacks, and if you plugged it in
wrong it WOULD shock the shit out of you.
So, kind of happy for the dedicated neutral now
AND the addition of the round ground prong. Got
shocked more than enough ! Fortunately, old US
wall plug design had enough space for the new
ground prongs without changing the old geometry.
Can STILL buy adapters though - a 2-prong thing
with a loose ground wire hanging out. Generally
you attach it to the outlet cover-screw. Not
perfect but better than nothing.
The UK 13a standard plug has a (replaceable) fuse inside. In theory you
can have each appliance with an appropriate fuse, so a fault in one
doesn't take down the whole circuit. In practice, I think most people
have a stock of 15a fuses that they use as replacements....
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 02:25:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
As I commented elsewhere, there are so many things "bad", that I'm going
to move to a flat instead, otherwise, yes, surface mount if they allow
it, dunno. I'm aging, so while I still can, before I can't manage the
stairs, I must do the big effort of moving to a flat.
I dread ever having to move. More than 3 decades in one place and the crap accumulates. I really have to get into Swedish death cleaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_death_cleaning
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 02:30:59 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
At my first job, first month perhaps, we killed a PC. I don't remember
if it was me or my boss that plugged the centronics connector of a
printer into the PC, and I saw a tiny spark. Sure enough, the printer
port was dead.
I killed the Centronics port on one machine but I had plugged in a
homegrown EPROM burner and screwed something up. You could do many things with the parallel port that didn't involve a printer. Some used it for dongles. I may have an external Iomega Zip drive around here that used it. 100 MB of removable storage. What more would you ever need?
RATS ... some day I'll describe the joy of prizing
an electrocuted rat out a motor-starter enclosure
in a little pill-box type building in high summer.
They'd also eaten all the exposed wiring - replaced
with steel BX. We intentionally re-located some
rat-eating snakes to and around the structure after ...
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 22:45:29 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I once wanted a 2/3 floor house ... but now that I'm old I'm glad I
never bought one. Know a number of old people who've had to basically
abandon the top floor of their homes because it's not safe to climb
stairs anymore and they can't get a 'chair-lift' for various reasons.
When we were married we had a two floor house. The second floor was terra incognita. There was a stoner couple next door in a house of about the
same age. You could see a little flex in the upstairs bedroom floor as you walked across it. That was the waterbed era and they were thinking about getting one. 'Uh, Dave, not a good idea. Put the pipe down for a while and rethink the plan'.
I've seen the future. There are three steps up to the deck and the old arthritic cat with house privileges takes them very slowly, one at a time.
I trust her indoors since her days of jumping up on anything are a fond memory.
So far so good though. I managed to put in 5.5 miles including 1200' of elevation gain today without dying. A young girl running up the trail
passed me and I realized like the cat running through the woods ain't happening again in this lifetime.
On 9/1/25 5:24 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 04:30:44 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Oddly the AC weed whacker only has two prongs but I did add a GFI socket
and approved external receptacle for it. I use the same for the heated
cat
bowl in the winter. I'd rather not fry the little nuisances.
GFI is good - recommended - for 'damp' locations. If you
have outlets in a bathroom then DO use GFI.
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have
to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
entirely. And unless I certify, the electricity company refuses to
increase the Amps, which is why my house is limited to 10A.
On 2025-09-01, Ian wrote:
c186282 wrote:[...]
Oh, 13a at 240v ... over 2700 watts. Wow !
Guess your clock-radio won't overload THOSE ! :-)
I think one notorious difference that I've seen mentioned a couple times
on the web is that water kettles will boil water more quickly. And that
in the US stovetop kettles were more often seen because such electric
kettles wouldn't be as fast as in ~240V. Now I've got no idea of how
precise such assessments are.
The UK 13a standard plug has a (replaceable) fuse inside. In theory you
can have each appliance with an appropriate fuse, so a fault in one
doesn't take down the whole circuit. In practice, I think most people
have a stock of 15a fuses that they use as replacements....
How does that compare to having e.g. RCD breakers and similar devices
that do not require replacing a fuse?
Is it just a matter of the electrical wiring/installation being new
enough to feature these, or are there other trade-offs?
On 2025-09-01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have
to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
(I don't think floor numbering is uniform across the EU? At least .fi
has the street level as the first floor. Now I wonder if there's a wiki article with some neat map of this...
Oh, it *is* called '"European" scheme'? Now that's perhaps a bit
confusing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_numbering_floors.svg )
On 9/2/25 12:49 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 02:25:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
As I commented elsewhere, there are so many things "bad", that I'm going >>> to move to a flat instead, otherwise, yes, surface mount if they allow
it, dunno. I'm aging, so while I still can, before I can't manage the
stairs, I must do the big effort of moving to a flat.
I dread ever having to move. More than 3 decades in one place and the
crap
accumulates. I really have to get into Swedish death cleaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_death_cleaning
SIX+ decades basically in one place ... and kinda
the end of the near family line. All THEIR good
stuff wound up HERE - not counting all my own junk.
Need a 12" video disk machine (with some movies) ?
GOT one. Apple II with drive unit ? GOT one. Have
a ZX-81 )with printer) under the heap somewhere ....
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 22:36:30 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 9/1/25 7:40 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 12:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-01 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Wonderful;. I'd love to take that on, given the money.
On 01/09/2025 11:35, c186282 wrote:It is a century old house with outer walls of stone and
Oh, alt to grooving walls ... just do like they do in
the old British castles/landmarks - fully exposed tubes,
usually tucked in the top corner of the wall. Paint to hide or >>>>>> some other method.
Yes. Chipping away at 1000 year old stone walls is not ideal...
Make me wonder what cabin Carlos lives in...
mortar/concrete, and inner walls of brick (some of them solid brick),
built on what was a swamp, so there is humidity creeping from the
soil. Quite cold in winter, unheatable, despite the mild Mediterranean >>>> climate. Oh, and I have cracked walls, too.
The entire district is "protected". If you tear down the house, you
have to rebuild with the same outside aspect.
Was the outer edge of the city when built, now it is centric.
Reminds me of someone I knew who bought a 'listed' (protected)
building. But it was the outside appearance that was 'listed' the
builder built a new house inside the outer structure, insulated and
cosy. Complete with a second layer of window glazing.
Now that's clever - and a smart way to circumvent 'historical' regs
:-)
That works. I knew a carpenter that specialized in restoring Victorians.
He wasn't getting rich since nobody could really afford the true costs but
he loved the old craftsmanship, Some of those towers had curved glass.
They don't give that away down at the local glass shop.
https://www.clearywindowrestoration.com/curved_glass_windows
The towers are fun. There isn't much room in them and they're usually accessed via a ladder and through a trap door but if you're at a party and want a quiet space for some reason or the other...
On 2025-09-02 12:04, c186282 wrote:
On 9/2/25 12:49 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 02:25:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
As I commented elsewhere, there are so many things "bad", that I'm
going
to move to a flat instead, otherwise, yes, surface mount if they allow >>>> it, dunno. I'm aging, so while I still can, before I can't manage the
stairs, I must do the big effort of moving to a flat.
I dread ever having to move. More than 3 decades in one place and the
crap
accumulates. I really have to get into Swedish death cleaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_death_cleaning
SIX+ decades basically in one place ... and kinda
the end of the near family line. All THEIR good
stuff wound up HERE - not counting all my own junk.
Sounds familiar ;-)
Need a 12" video disk machine (with some movies) ?
GOT one. Apple II with drive unit ? GOT one. Have
a ZX-81 )with printer) under the heap somewhere ....
I had an electric gramophone. Managed to sell it. :-)
They were intended to be connected to the valve radio in a socket named "phone", IIRC.
With a fuse on the cable of the appliance, the fuse can be precisely >calibrated to the actual load.
But you also need an RCD to protect the
wiring.
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
With a fuse on the cable of the appliance, the fuse can be precisely
calibrated to the actual load.
This is in fact a shortcoming of continental European installations,
where you can connect euro socket devices with 0,75 mm² cables to a
16A circuit. We trust that our wiring is sane enough that such a cable
will still allow enough Amps to flow to trip the breaker before it
ignites the environment. That's why we measure the loop resistance
before the installation is allowed to be used.
But you also need an RCD to protect the
wiring.
An RCD protects people, not the wiring.
I find it interesting that US hair dryers have the RCD in the plug.
On 2025-09-01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have
to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
(I don't think floor numbering is uniform across the EU? At least .fi
has the street level as the first floor. Now I wonder if there's a wiki article with some neat map of this...
Oh, it *is* called '"European" scheme'? Now that's perhaps a bit
confusing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_numbering_floors.svg )
entirely. And unless I certify, the electricity company refuses to
increase the Amps, which is why my house is limited to 10A.
On 01/09/2025 13:47, Daniel70 wrote:
On 31/08/2025 9:09 pm, Daniel70 wrote:
'Mystery Road' is a nice little Aussie Crime Drama .... set in the
absolutely gorgeous Outback.
Sort of "Doctor Who"'ish .... The first series featured a 40'ish Main
character, later series featured a 20s Main character .... which is
about to reappear on Aussie T.V. in a couple of weeks.
Hmm!! Looking up IMDB, it shows 2hr film in 2013 followed by a series
in 2018 then what I refered to as 'later series' in 2022.
So it seems these people take their time!!
I loved it. It really was a dirty gritty account of what it means to be
to be 'aboriginal' in effectively a trailer park/low rent area.
On 1/09/2025 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
<Snip>
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is 240V
RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in an SMPS
are 400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
Somewhere here I read where someone refered to a 120V supplied that they typed was 90V effective. To me, 120V peak would be about 90V RMS (or effective).
On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is 240V
RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in an SMPS are
400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
...even being fed from 240V A.C--
On 1/09/2025 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
<Snip>
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is 240V
RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in an SMPS
are 400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
Somewhere here I read where someone refered to a 120V supplied that they typed was 90V effective. To me, 120V peak would be about 90V RMS (or effective).
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 10:55:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in 1953
had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
BX?
https://www.thespruce.com/bx-wire-guide-to-armored-electrical-No.
cable-1821519
I think one notorious difference that I've seen mentioned a couple times
on the web is that water kettles will boil water more quickly. And that
in the US stovetop kettles were more often seen because such electric
kettles wouldn't be as fast as in ~240V. Now I've got no idea of how
precise such assessments are.
With a fuse on the cable of the appliance, the fuse can be precisely calibrated to the actual load. But you also need an RCD to protect the wiring.The fuse is to protect the wiring FROM the wall to the appliance
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
On 2025-09-02 13:09, Marc Haber wrote:
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
With a fuse on the cable of the appliance, the fuse can be precisely
calibrated to the actual load.
This is in fact a shortcoming of continental European installations,
where you can connect euro socket devices with 0,75 mm² cables to a
16A circuit. We trust that our wiring is sane enough that such a cable
will still allow enough Amps to flow to trip the breaker before it
ignites the environment. That's why we measure the loop resistance
before the installation is allowed to be used.
But you also need an RCD to protect the
wiring.
An RCD protects people, not the wiring.
Oh, sorry, translation issue. I meant a current limiter switch, or
whatever they are called in English.
I find it interesting that US hair dryers have the RCD in the plug.
Oh.
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
On 1/09/2025 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
<Snip>
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is 240V
RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in an SMPS
are 400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
Daniel70 wrote:
On 1/09/2025 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
<Snip>
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is
240V RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in an SMPS
are 400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
Normally the diodes are specified to tolerate the Peak Inverse Voltage,
which could be nearer 700v for the nominal 240v rms supply. Hence many diodes have a PIV of about 1kV - e.g. 1N4007.
I think the first family car with seat belts was in '65. Seat belts just like a race car! Considering they were only lap belts they may have been worse than no belt. The best thing they were good for was keeping you
from sliding across the bench seat during spirited cornering. My
girlfriend knew what was coming when I told her to buckle up.
Daniel70 wrote:
[snip]
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
This is indeed the English convention. I suspect the same is true in
France: "premier etage". So probably Europe-wide.
The Americans can achieve the same result by numbering their ground
floor as zero.
Daniel70 wrote:But, but... when I walk in to a building at the ground level, the floor
[snip]
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
This is indeed the English convention. I suspect the same is true in
France: "premier etage". So probably Europe-wide.
The Americans can achieve the same result by numbering their ground
floor as zero.
Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> writes:
Daniel70 wrote:But, but... when I walk in to a building at the ground level, the floor
[snip]
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
This is indeed the English convention. I suspect the same is true in
France: "premier etage". So probably Europe-wide.
The Americans can achieve the same result by numbering their ground
floor as zero.
I encounter there is surely the "first" floor you get to. So the one
above that must be the "second" floor, and so forth. Seems clear to me!
Daniel70 wrote:
[snip]
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
This is indeed the English convention. I suspect the same is true in France: "premier etage". So probably Europe-wide.
The Americans can achieve the same result by numbering their ground
floor as zero.
On 02/09/2025 11:03, Nuno Silva wrote:
I think one notorious difference that I've seen mentioned a couple times
on the web is that water kettles will boil water more quickly. And that
in the US stovetop kettles were more often seen because such electric
kettles wouldn't be as fast as in ~240V. Now I've got no idea of how
precise such assessments are.
Most kettles are now not 2kW or 3KW any more but 1.5kW due to some
stupid EU green initiative who don't realise it takes more energy to
boil a kettle if it takes longer to do it.
But I think you can still get more powerful ones as it never got to be
'law'
On 9/2/25 8:07 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 1/09/2025 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
<Snip>
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is
240V RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in an SMPS
are 400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
Somewhere here I read where someone refered to a 120V supplied that
they typed was 90V effective. To me, 120V peak would be about 90V RMS
(or effective).
Roughly, yes. It's sort of the REASON for 120vac - because
the effective energy is about the same as Edison's old 90vcd
service.
"AC/DC" appliances, "universal motors", work because 120vac
and 90vdc are very similar in some important ways.
USA had to support competing systems for quite awhile.
On 2025-09-02 15:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/09/2025 11:03, Nuno Silva wrote:
I think one notorious difference that I've seen mentioned a couple times >>> on the web is that water kettles will boil water more quickly. And that
in the US stovetop kettles were more often seen because such electric
kettles wouldn't be as fast as in ~240V. Now I've got no idea of how
precise such assessments are.
Most kettles are now not 2kW or 3KW any more but 1.5kW due to some
stupid EU green initiative who don't realise it takes more energy to
boil a kettle if it takes longer to do it.
But I think you can still get more powerful ones as it never got to be
'law'
I don't know if green, but I remember that there were problems when half
the country plugs in the kettle at the same minute there is an interlude
in Coronation Street ;-)
There is something wrong with that. 120ac rms aka 170ac ptp has the same thermal effect as 120 dc.
On 2025-09-02 18:39, Don_from_AZ wrote:
Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> writes:
Daniel70 wrote:But, but... when I walk in to a building at the ground level, the floor
[snip]
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
This is indeed the English convention. I suspect the same is true in
France: "premier etage". So probably Europe-wide.
The Americans can achieve the same result by numbering their ground
floor as zero.
I encounter there is surely the "first" floor you get to. So the one
above that must be the "second" floor, and so forth. Seems clear to me!
It is equally clear to me that it is the zero floor, as I did not have
to climb the stairs or the elevator :-)
On 2025-09-01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have
to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
(I don't think floor numbering is uniform across the EU? At least .fi
has the street level as the first floor. Now I wonder if there's a wiki article with some neat map of this...
Oh, it *is* called '"European" scheme'? Now that's perhaps a bit
confusing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_numbering_floors.svg )
entirely. And unless I certify, the electricity company refuses to
increase the Amps, which is why my house is limited to 10A.
On 2/09/2025 8:15 pm, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-01, Carlos E.R. wrote:When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have
to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
(I don't think floor numbering is uniform across the EU? At least .fi
has the street level as the first floor. Now I wonder if there's a wiki
article with some neat map of this...
Oh, it *is* called '"European" scheme'? Now that's perhaps a bit
confusing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_numbering_floors.svg )
entirely. And unless I certify, the electricity company refuses to
increase the Amps, which is why my house is limited to 10A.
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
On 2025-09-02 18:39, Don_from_AZ wrote:
Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> writes:
Daniel70 wrote:But, but... when I walk in to a building at the ground level, the floor
[snip]
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
This is indeed the English convention. I suspect the same is true in
France: "premier etage". So probably Europe-wide.
The Americans can achieve the same result by numbering their ground
floor as zero.
I encounter there is surely the "first" floor you get to. So the one
above that must be the "second" floor, and so forth. Seems clear to me!
It is equally clear to me that it is the zero floor, as I did not have
to climb the stairs or the elevator :-)
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 21:59:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 2/09/2025 8:15 pm, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-01, Carlos E.R. wrote:When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have >>>> to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
(I don't think floor numbering is uniform across the EU? At least .fi
has the street level as the first floor. Now I wonder if there's a wiki
article with some neat map of this...
Oh, it *is* called '"European" scheme'? Now that's perhaps a bit
confusing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_numbering_floors.svg )
entirely. And unless I certify, the electricity company refuses to
increase the Amps, which is why my house is limited to 10A.
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
I suppose it's to be expected from people who drive on the wrong side of
the road. If you're in an elevator where there is a parking garage or something below ground, is the ground floor 0?
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 21:59:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 2/09/2025 8:15 pm, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-01, Carlos E.R. wrote:When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have >>>> to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
(I don't think floor numbering is uniform across the EU? At least .fi
has the street level as the first floor. Now I wonder if there's a wiki
article with some neat map of this...
Oh, it *is* called '"European" scheme'? Now that's perhaps a bit
confusing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_numbering_floors.svg )
entirely. And unless I certify, the electricity company refuses to
increase the Amps, which is why my house is limited to 10A.
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
I suppose it's to be expected from people who drive on the wrong side of
the road. If you're in an elevator where there is a parking garage or something below ground, is the ground floor 0?
On 02/09/2025 19:11, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There is something wrong with that. 120ac rms aka 170ac ptp has the
same thermal effect as 120 dc.
Exactly, but with people arguing over which floor comes first, do you
really want to explain all of that?
On 2025-09-02 06:40, c186282 wrote:
RATS ... some day I'll describe the joy of prizing an electrocuted
rat out a motor-starter enclosure in a little pill-box type
building in high summer. They'd also eaten all the exposed wiring -
replaced with steel BX. We intentionally re-located some rat-eating
snakes to and around the structure after ...
I saw a cute sparrow getting inside my kitchen, he had reached the end
when I saw him, or her. He was not scared of me — a previous one tried
to fly away and crashed into the glass of the door to the patio. Not
this one, he just walked slowly to the door and out, small hops. I then
gave it a piece of soft bread which he devoured.
So I bought a feeder for sparrows, and put it among the flower pots
where I saw the bird hide. And pointed an automatic wild life camera to
the area.
Next day I looked at the photos, and saw a rat eating the seeds. No bird
in sight.
Always wondered about the "towers". Clearly mostly 'decorative' - a
homage to the old castles.
On 01/09/2025 12:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I believe well done soldered joints reduce the resistance.
It depends. Solder is more resistive than copper, but if you use plenty
of it.
Apropos of nothing I once connected a Shottky diode across a brushed DC
motor to clamp RF spikes, and accidentally soldered it the wrong way round...it got very hot, smoked and *melted all the solder*.
To my surprise, it survived...
Daniel70 wrote:
On 1/09/2025 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
<Snip>
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is 240V
RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in an SMPS
are 400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
Normally the diodes are specified to tolerate the Peak Inverse Voltage,
which could be nearer 700v for the nominal 240v rms supply. Hence many diodes have a PIV of about 1kV - e.g. 1N4007.
Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> writes:
Daniel70 wrote:
[snip]
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
This is indeed the English convention. I suspect the same is true in
France: "premier etage". So probably Europe-wide.
The Americans can achieve the same result by numbering their ground
floor as zero.
But, but... when I walk in to a building at the ground level, the floor
I encounter there is surely the "first" floor you get to. So the one
above that must be the "second" floor, and so forth. Seems clear to me!
On 30/08/2025 13:47, c186282 wrote:
Anyway, 'check' or 'cheque' ... convenient paper instrument
for transferring funds. Best for larger transfers.
Golly. I remember those. Haven't used one in years
Hey, ZIP-DRIVES were supposed to be The Future !
Hey, it DID work OK in its day.
Bud of mine put a 'gel' bed in his 2nd-floor apartment. HUGE fun
dealing with that when he had to move. Was convinced the floor would
cave in ... and what the hell do you do with "gel" ???
Poor access to "junk men" is also an issue ...
the waste people have become SO picky !
On 9/2/25 6:23 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-02 12:04, c186282 wrote:
On 9/2/25 12:49 AM, rbowman wrote:Sounds familiar ;-)
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 02:25:20 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:SIX+ decades basically in one place ... and kinda the end of the
As I commented elsewhere, there are so many things "bad", that I'm
going to move to a flat instead, otherwise, yes, surface mount if
they allow it, dunno. I'm aging, so while I still can, before I
can't manage the stairs, I must do the big effort of moving to a
flat.
I dread ever having to move. More than 3 decades in one place and the
crap accumulates. I really have to get into Swedish death cleaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_death_cleaning
near family line. All THEIR good stuff wound up HERE - not
counting all my own junk.
I just can't deal with it at this point. It's going to be one hell of
an estate sale
Hmmm ... may need to make some kind of bank instrument for the
nearest relative to cover the costs. My lawyer can just stuff it in
with the will. I do pity the heirs.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 05:13:21 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hey, ZIP-DRIVES were supposed to be The Future !
Hey, it DID work OK in its day.
Right. I think I may have a QIC-80 drive in my personal museum too,
in the bottom of some crate.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
The main advantage of lap belts was that it is easier to find the bodies
I think the first family car with seat belts was in '65. Seat belts
just like a race car! Considering they were only lap belts they may
have been worse than no belt. The best thing they were good for was
keeping you from sliding across the bench seat during spirited
cornering. My girlfriend knew what was coming when I told her to buckle
up.
if they stay with the car during a rollover accident instead of being
thrown willy-nilly out into the countryside.
On Tue, 02 Sep 2025 11:15:09 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have
to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
(I don't think floor numbering is uniform across the EU? At least .fi
has the street level as the first floor. Now I wonder if there's a wiki
article with some neat map of this...
Oh, it *is* called '"European" scheme'? Now that's perhaps a bit
confusing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_numbering_floors.svg )
entirely. And unless I certify, the electricity company refuses to
increase the Amps, which is why my house is limited to 10A.
That's as complex as 'Places Where People Drive on the Wrong Side of the Road'. I'll leave 'wrong' to local convention.
On 2025-09-02 20:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/09/2025 19:11, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There is something wrong with that. 120ac rms aka 170ac ptp has the
same thermal effect as 120 dc.
Exactly, but with people arguing over which floor comes first, do
you really want to explain all of that?
LOL :-D
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 06:10:39 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Bud of mine put a 'gel' bed in his 2nd-floor apartment. HUGE fun
dealing with that when he had to move. Was convinced the floor would
cave in ... and what the hell do you do with "gel" ???
My mother-in-law gave us a king sized bed for a wedding gift. The plan was
to put it in the upstairs bedroom. The layout was three steps up to a
landing from the kitchen, three steps down to the living room, with a
fairly step staircase perpendicular to the landing for upstairs.
The Macy's truck arrived with the bed. I wasn't home but my wife reported that after struggling for a while the crew said 'Lady, that ain't going up there without a chainsaw.''
At least with a water bed all you need is the bag and a hose until
disaster strikes.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 06:04:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Poor access to "junk men" is also an issue ...
the waste people have become SO picky !
BestBuy takes electronic waste -- except for CRTs. Want a vintage VGA terminal? Taking them out into the woods and shooting them up is also frowned on.
On 2025-09-01, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 01/09/2025 12:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I believe well done soldered joints reduce the resistance.
It depends. Solder is more resistive than copper, but if you use plenty
of it.
Apropos of nothing I once connected a Shottky diode across a brushed DC
motor to clamp RF spikes, and accidentally soldered it the wrong way
round...it got very hot, smoked and *melted all the solder*.
To my surprise, it survived...
I've been phasing out the 50-watt PAR20 halogen lamps that are all
over our house, replacing burned-out units with 7-watt LED equivalents.
The halogens produce beautiful light, but they run hot as hell.
A common failure mode is that they unsolder their own bases.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 11:59:45 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-02 06:40, c186282 wrote:
RATS ... some day I'll describe the joy of prizing an electrocuted
rat out a motor-starter enclosure in a little pill-box type
building in high summer. They'd also eaten all the exposed wiring - >>> replaced with steel BX. We intentionally re-located some rat-eating >>> snakes to and around the structure after ...
I saw a cute sparrow getting inside my kitchen, he had reached the end
when I saw him, or her. He was not scared of me — a previous one tried
to fly away and crashed into the glass of the door to the patio. Not
this one, he just walked slowly to the door and out, small hops. I then
gave it a piece of soft bread which he devoured.
So I bought a feeder for sparrows, and put it among the flower pots
where I saw the bird hide. And pointed an automatic wild life camera to
the area.
Next day I looked at the photos, and saw a rat eating the seeds. No bird
in sight.
Welcome to the world of nature. I have an automatic feeder for cat kibble. The cats, which includes most of the neighborhood, have the dispensing schedule down pretty well but if they're late the magpies move in.
Apparently in a cat's brain a magpie is too big to mess with.
I haven't seen the raccoons or skunks lately but I don't have the game
camera set up. In the winter I put up a feeder with sunflower seeds for
the birds. The deer enjoy them. I would mind but they tend to destroy the feeders butting them to shake the seeds out. One year a flock of wild
turkeys were hanging around so I got a seed block for them. The deer liked that too, so I got them a deer block. So far the bears haven't gotten wind
of the cafeteria. The rural bears tend to stay up in the woods doing bear stuff but the urban bears home in on pet food.
Mice and rats aren't a problem The cats seem to do their job despite the welfare program. Sometimes. One of the cats was playing with a mouse but abandoned it and came running to the sound of a Friskies lid being opened.
On 02/09/2025 19:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-02 15:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:That's what Dinorwig is for...
On 02/09/2025 11:03, Nuno Silva wrote:
I think one notorious difference that I've seen mentioned a couple
times
on the web is that water kettles will boil water more quickly. And that >>>> in the US stovetop kettles were more often seen because such electric
kettles wouldn't be as fast as in ~240V. Now I've got no idea of how
precise such assessments are.
Most kettles are now not 2kW or 3KW any more but 1.5kW due to some
stupid EU green initiative who don't realise it takes more energy to
boil a kettle if it takes longer to do it.
But I think you can still get more powerful ones as it never got to
be 'law'
I don't know if green, but I remember that there were problems when
half the country plugs in the kettle at the same minute there is an
interlude in Coronation Street ;-)
On 2025-09-02, rbowman wrote:
That's as complex as 'Places Where People Drive on the Wrong Side of the
Road'. I'll leave 'wrong' to local convention.
To be more comparable, you'd have to call e.g. right-hand driving
"European driving scheme".
On 2025-09-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-02 20:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/09/2025 19:11, Carlos E.R. wrote:
There is something wrong with that. 120ac rms aka 170ac ptp has the
same thermal effect as 120 dc.
Exactly, but with people arguing over which floor comes first, do
you really want to explain all of that?
LOL :-D
This gives me an idea. Let's solve the "which floor gets number one"
problem by introducing a scheme which starts numbering from the
*topmost* floor...
On 01/09/2025 22:26, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 1 Sep 2025 10:55:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No.
That all happened over a period of years. My parents house built in 1953 >>> had rubber wiring *in steel conduit* which was the 'earth'.
BX?
https://www.thespruce.com/bx-wire-guide-to-armored-electrical-
cable-1821519
What I said, Red and black rubber insulated wires in round steel conduit.
USA - black and white ... and green for ground.
Don't put your finger on the black wire(s) !
On 02/09/2025 11:03, Nuno Silva wrote:
I think one notorious difference that I've seen mentioned a couple times
on the web is that water kettles will boil water more quickly. And that
in the US stovetop kettles were more often seen because such electric
kettles wouldn't be as fast as in ~240V. Now I've got no idea of how
precise such assessments are.
Most kettles are now not 2kW or 3KW any more but 1.5kW due to some
stupid EU green initiative who don't realise it takes more energy to
boil a kettle if it takes longer to do it.
But I think you can still get more powerful ones as it never got to be
'law'
On 02/09/2025 11:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
With a fuse on the cable of the appliance, the fuse can be preciselyThe fuse is to protect the wiring FROM the wall to the appliance
calibrated to the actual load. But you also need an RCD to protect the
wiring.
On 02/09/2025 12:59, Daniel70 wrote:
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of aDepends on the slope the house is built on
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
Daniel70 wrote:
[snip]
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
This is indeed the English convention. I suspect the same is true in France: "premier etage". So probably Europe-wide.
The Americans can achieve the same result by numbering their ground
floor as zero.
Daniel70 wrote:
On 1/09/2025 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
<Snip>
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is
240V RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in an SMPS
are 400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
Normally the diodes are specified to tolerate the Peak Inverse Voltage,
which could be nearer 700v for the nominal 240v rms supply. Hence many diodes have a PIV of about 1kV - e.g. 1N4007.
Gosh, this land is civilized, no fauna :-DD
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
The main advantage of lap belts was that it is easier to find the bodies
I think the first family car with seat belts was in '65. Seat belts just
like a race car! Considering they were only lap belts they may have been
worse than no belt. The best thing they were good for was keeping you
from sliding across the bench seat during spirited cornering. My
girlfriend knew what was coming when I told her to buckle up.
if they stay with the car during a rollover accident instead of being
thrown willy-nilly out into the countryside.
On 2025-09-02 16:24, Graham J wrote:
Daniel70 wrote:
[snip]
When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
This is indeed the English convention. I suspect the same is true in
France: "premier etage". So probably Europe-wide.
The Americans can achieve the same result by numbering their ground
floor as zero.
That's what we do in Spain and most of Europe.
On 2025-09-02 23:34, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 06:04:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Poor access to "junk men" is also an issue ...
the waste people have become SO picky !
BestBuy takes electronic waste -- except for CRTs. Want a vintage VGA
terminal? Taking them out into the woods and shooting them up is also
frowned on.
I daresay! :-D
Although I confess to having destroyed one or two myself. No shooting
here, though. Not allowed.
On 2025-09-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 05:13:21 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hey, ZIP-DRIVES were supposed to be The Future !
Hey, it DID work OK in its day.
Right. I think I may have a QIC-80 drive in my personal museum too,
in the bottom of some crate.
I'll see your QIC and raise you a SyQuest removable hard drive (45MB).
On 2025-09-02 14:28, c186282 wrote:
On 9/2/25 8:07 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 1/09/2025 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/09/2025 14:02, Daniel70 wrote:
<Snip>
And, as I've mentioned before, here in Australia, our "Mains" is
240V RMS so peaks out at about 340V between the Active wire and the
Neutral/Earth.
Everywhere it's R.M.S. Which is why mains reservoir caps in an SMPS
are 400V rated as are the diodes feeding them...
Somewhere here I read where someone refered to a 120V supplied that
they typed was 90V effective. To me, 120V peak would be about 90V RMS
(or effective).
Roughly, yes. It's sort of the REASON for 120vac - because
the effective energy is about the same as Edison's old 90vcd
service.
There is something wrong with that. 120ac rms aka 170ac ptp has the same thermal effect as 120 dc.
"AC/DC" appliances, "universal motors", work because 120vac
and 90vdc are very similar in some important ways.
USA had to support competing systems for quite awhile.
On 2025-09-02 23:29, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 06:10:39 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Bud of mine put a 'gel' bed in his 2nd-floor apartment. HUGE fun
dealing with that when he had to move. Was convinced the floor
would cave in ... and what the hell do you do with "gel" ???
My mother-in-law gave us a king sized bed for a wedding gift. The plan
was to put it in the upstairs bedroom. The layout was three steps up to
a landing from the kitchen, three steps down to the living room, with a
fairly step staircase perpendicular to the landing for upstairs.
The Macy's truck arrived with the bed. I wasn't home but my wife
reported that after struggling for a while the crew said 'Lady, that
ain't going up there without a chainsaw.''
Was that bed fully assembled? Here beds are sold disassembled.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 21:59:16 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 2/09/2025 8:15 pm, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-09-01, Carlos E.R. wrote:When I walk in from the Street Footpath through the Front Door of a
However, if I try to certify the electrical installation, I would have >>>> to redo them, meaning rewire the second floor (first floor in EU)
(I don't think floor numbering is uniform across the EU? At least .fi
has the street level as the first floor. Now I wonder if there's a wiki
article with some neat map of this...
Oh, it *is* called '"European" scheme'? Now that's perhaps a bit
confusing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_numbering_floors.svg )
entirely. And unless I certify, the electricity company refuses to
increase the Amps, which is why my house is limited to 10A.
House, I'm still (possibly) AT GROUND LEVEL, so I MUST be on THE
*GROUND* *FLOOR* level, surely!!
If I then go up a set of stairs, that puts me at the *FIRST* *FLOOR*
*ABOVE* Ground level, surely!!
I suppose it's to be expected from people who drive on the wrong side of
the road. If you're in an elevator where there is a parking garage or something below ground, is the ground floor 0?
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 00:47:30 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Gosh, this land is civilized, no fauna :-DD
The joys of civilization. I remember going to the Indiana state museum.
One exhibit claimed almost all non-domestic fauna had been killed off by
the early 20th century. They started reintroducing deer and other species
in the '40s and there was a deer season when I was there in the '80s.
Farmers absolutely hate any animal that they can't send to market.
Some eastern states have reintroduced elk. In this state wolves
reintroduced themselves and that's rather controversial. Grizzly bears
never were eliminated but they've started increasing their range, also controversial. There are a number of bison ranches but the free roaming
bison at Yellowstone are also a problem due to the possibility of
brucellosis transmission.
It keeps life interesting.
On 2025-09-01, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 01/09/2025 12:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I believe well done soldered joints reduce the resistance.
It depends. Solder is more resistive than copper, but if you use plenty
of it.
Apropos of nothing I once connected a Shottky diode across a brushed DC
motor to clamp RF spikes, and accidentally soldered it the wrong way
round...it got very hot, smoked and *melted all the solder*.
To my surprise, it survived...
I've been phasing out the 50-watt PAR20 halogen lamps that are all
over our house, replacing burned-out units with 7-watt LED equivalents.
The halogens produce beautiful light, but they run hot as hell.
A common failure mode is that they unsolder their own bases.
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 00:40:49 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-02 23:29, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 06:10:39 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Bud of mine put a 'gel' bed in his 2nd-floor apartment. HUGE fun
dealing with that when he had to move. Was convinced the floor
would cave in ... and what the hell do you do with "gel" ???
My mother-in-law gave us a king sized bed for a wedding gift. The plan
was to put it in the upstairs bedroom. The layout was three steps up to
a landing from the kitchen, three steps down to the living room, with a
fairly step staircase perpendicular to the landing for upstairs.
The Macy's truck arrived with the bed. I wasn't home but my wife
reported that after struggling for a while the crew said 'Lady, that
ain't going up there without a chainsaw.''
Was that bed fully assembled? Here beds are sold disassembled.
It was disassembled but box springs don't bend in the middle like a
mattress. We probably could have went with the mattress on the floor but
it was the whole deal or nothing.
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