On Jul 10, 2025 at 6:51:50 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Once again, it’s not the OS that looks like this, it’s just the
default GUI desktop environment.
Notice that neither Apple nor Microsoft is rushing to release anything
that looks anything remotely like Linux. I wonder why?
Not to mention that Apple has already made Unix easy to use and
gorgeous.
From <https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-linux-distro-combines-the-best-parts-of-windows-and-macos-and-its-gorgeous/>:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 23:38:52 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
On Jul 10, 2025 at 6:51:50 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Once again, it’s not the OS that looks like this, it’s just the
default GUI desktop environment.
Notice that neither Apple nor Microsoft is rushing to release anything
that looks anything remotely like Linux. I wonder why?
Maybe it’s because there is no such thing as “looking anything remotely like Linux”. Linux doesn’t have any particular “look”, as I mentioned in
my posting.
Not to mention that Apple has already made Unix easy to use and
gorgeous.
The only thing “Unix” about Apple is the trademark.
Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
On Jul 10, 2025 at 6:51:50?PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <ldo@nz.invalid>
wrote:
From
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-linux-distro-combines-the-best-parts-of-windows-and-macos-and-its-gorgeous/>:
But it doesn't run Mac software and it might run some Windows software. So if
all you want is a screen that LOOKS like Windows and/or Mac, then its great. >>
Notice that neither Apple nor Microsoft is rushing to release anything that >> looks anything remotely like Linux. I wonder why?
Not to mention that Apple has already made Unix easy to use and gorgeous.
They did that 24 years ago. And artistically speaking, looking like Windows is
nothing to brag about.
Macs suck.
your dick came up for discussion in another group today
From <https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-linux-distro-combines-the-best-parts-of-windows-and-macos-and-its-gorgeous/>:
Such is the case with the latest release of BlueStar Linux: a
distro that essentially takes KDE Plasma and twists it into a
different kind of desktop, one with a highly functional top bar, a
well-designed dock, desktop icons, and more. You're getting the
best of all worlds:
• A Linux-like top bar
• A MacOS dock
• Windows-like desktop icons
You might think of BlueStar Linux as the chimera of operating
systems.
Once again, it’s not the OS that looks like this, it’s just the
default GUI desktop environment.
Given that this distro is Arch-based, presumably it has access to the
regular Arch repos as well (unless they build their own packages with
their own dependencies). If so, you have access to all the usual GUI
(and other) options you get with Arch.
From <https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-linux-distro-combines-the-best-parts-of-windows-and-macos-and-its-gorgeous/>:
Such is the case with the latest release of BlueStar Linux: a
distro that essentially takes KDE Plasma and twists it into a
different kind of desktop, one with a highly functional top bar, a
well-designed dock, desktop icons, and more. You're getting the
best of all worlds:
• A Linux-like top bar
• A MacOS dock
• Windows-like desktop icons
You might think of BlueStar Linux as the chimera of operating
systems.
Once again, it’s not the OS that looks like this, it’s just the
default GUI desktop environment.
Given that this distro is Arch-based, presumably it has access to the
regular Arch repos as well (unless they build their own packages with
their own dependencies). If so, you have access to all the usual GUI
(and other) options you get with Arch.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-07-10 20:27, Joel wrote:
Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
On Jul 10, 2025 at 6:51:50?PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <ldo@nz.invalid> >>>> wrote:
From
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-linux-distro-combines-the-best-parts-of-windows-and-macos-and-its-gorgeous/>:
But it doesn't run Mac software and it might run some Windows software. So if
all you want is a screen that LOOKS like Windows and/or Mac, then its great.
Notice that neither Apple nor Microsoft is rushing to release anything that
looks anything remotely like Linux. I wonder why?
Not to mention that Apple has already made Unix easy to use and gorgeous. >>>> They did that 24 years ago. And artistically speaking, looking like Windows is
nothing to brag about.
Macs suck.
Wow. What a powerful argument.
Tell it to the scientists at JPL.
Macs get low fuel economy, so to speak.An utterly ridiculous analogy.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Macs suck.
Wow. What a powerful argument.
Tell it to the scientists at JPL.
Macs get low fuel economy, so to speak.
An utterly ridiculous analogy.
Let's say a Mac lasts eight years. I could build a box that mightOK. "Could".
last longer for a lot less.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Let's say a Mac lasts eight years. I could build a box that might
last longer for a lot less.
OK. "Could".
So what?
Is the only thing that matters about a personal computer how long it lasts?
No, but the price does matter.
For the record, my computer immediately preceding this one was a 2015
MacBook Pro 13" that I used until December of last year, when I
purchased this M3 MacBook Air.
Nearly a decade of use isn't bad.
You clearly take good care of your gear. Laptops are a challenge, inYup. I'm the sort of person when others are complaining about how their
that regard.
But, why not use Xfce if you like that kind of doc's?
And who said other Linux GUI's desktop icons were
not Windows like.?
On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 01:07:08 -0700, T wrote:
But, why not use Xfce if you like that kind of doc's?
Presumably, being Arch-based, you have that choice.
Once again, it’s not the OS that looks like this, it’s just the
default GUI desktop environment.
And who said other Linux GUI's desktop icons were
not Windows like.?
Just about everybody.
*nix desktop GUIs pioneered scalable vector-based graphics on the desktop while Microsoft was (still is?) confined to bitmap graphics.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Let's say a Mac lasts eight years. I could build a box that might
last longer for a lot less.
OK. "Could".
So what?
Is the only thing that matters about a personal computer how long it lasts?
No, but the price does matter.
So only the price and how long it lasts?
Not what software is available?
Mac software is so-so.
For the record, my computer immediately preceding this one was a 2015
MacBook Pro 13" that I used until December of last year, when I
purchased this M3 MacBook Air.
Nearly a decade of use isn't bad.
You clearly take good care of your gear. Laptops are a challenge, in
that regard.
Yup. I'm the sort of person when others are complaining about how their
cables are dirty and breaking at the strain relief, I don't even really
understand what they're on about. :-)
A laptop is like a car that you can let fall off your lap for it to
crash.
I did do one battery swap, which cost me about $130 about 2 years before
I moved on, but on an actual cost per year basis, I still did very well.
The battery is nothing, I would be more worried about a USB-C slotAnd yet none of those things happened.
failing, faulty keys on the keyboard, damage to display, etc.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Macs suck.
Wow. What a powerful argument.
Tell it to the scientists at JPL.
Macs get low fuel economy, so to speak.
An utterly ridiculous analogy.
Let's say a Mac lasts eight years. I could build a box that might
last longer for a lot less.
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 23:38:52 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
On Jul 10, 2025 at 6:51:50 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Once again, it’s not the OS that looks like this, it’s just the
default GUI desktop environment.
Notice that neither Apple nor Microsoft is rushing to release anything
that looks anything remotely like Linux. I wonder why?
Maybe it’s because there is no such thing as “looking anything remotely like Linux”. Linux doesn’t have any particular “look”, as I mentioned in
my posting.
Not to mention that Apple has already made Unix easy to use and
gorgeous.
The only thing “Unix” about Apple is the trademark.
On Jul 10, 2025 at 7:53:00 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The only thing “Unix” about Apple is the trademark.
You have said this before. Repeating it does not make it true. MacOS IS
Unix.
As far as the user is concerned though, they function and look just
like Windows' icons.
Linux is technically superior to Windows and not by a little, by a lot.
But Linux desktop(s) won't get mass acceptance until Linux comes up with
a way to get the general uses base's "exact" programs to run on Linux.
(Wine is alpha code at best.)
Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
Macs get low fuel economy, so to speak.
An utterly ridiculous analogy.
Let's say a Mac lasts eight years. I could build a box that might
last longer for a lot less.
Let's say Macs last 11 years and counting. I have a 2014 Mac Mini that still
runs fine. Intel i5 and 8GB RAM. I put a 512GB SSD in it about 5 years ago. I
am posting from it right now.
Let's say Macs last 20 years and counting. I have a Dual 2.3 GHz CPU PPC G5 >> Mac that still runs fine. From 2005. 14 GB RAM.
Let's say Macs last 23 years and counting. I have a Dual 1.25 GHz CPU PPC G4 >> Mac that still runs fine. I fixed the power supply a few years ago. From
2002. 2GB RAM, which is the max it can take.
I can post from both of those.
And before you bring up cost, none were bought new. All were bought used on >> eBay.
Being able to run a Usenet newsreader isn't everything. For that I'm
using a Winblows app under Wine.
I have a very functioning setup,Wow. So ONE task.
though, beyond an NNTP reader, even streaming movies to my TV screen
with the sound in my headphones.
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 00:08:56 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
On Jul 10, 2025 at 7:53:00 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The only thing “Unix” about Apple is the trademark.
You have said this before. Repeating it does not make it true. MacOS IS
Unix.
MacOS is a licensee of the “Unix” trademark, nothing more.
It does not conform to what was called the “Unix philosophy” (perhaps now more properly called the “*nix philosophy”, for obvious reasons). I have given examples of this elsewhere.
On Jul 10, 2025 at 7:53:00 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 23:38:52 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
On Jul 10, 2025 at 6:51:50 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Once again, it’s not the OS that looks like this, it’s just the
default GUI desktop environment.
Notice that neither Apple nor Microsoft is rushing to release anything
that looks anything remotely like Linux. I wonder why?
Maybe it’s because there is no such thing as “looking anything remotely >> like Linux”. Linux doesn’t have any particular “look”, as I mentioned
in my posting.
Not to mention that Apple has already made Unix easy to use and
gorgeous.
The only thing “Unix” about Apple is the trademark.
You have said this before. Repeating it does not make it true. MacOS IS
Unix.
MacOS isn't just a Unix, it is UNIX(r).
On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 16:34:36 -0700, T wrote:
As far as the user is concerned though, they function and look just
like Windows' icons.
What is so special about Windows’ icons, that make them different from other icons?
Linux is technically superior to Windows and not by a little, by a lot.
But Linux desktop(s) won't get mass acceptance until Linux comes up with
a way to get the general uses base's "exact" programs to run on Linux.
(Wine is alpha code at best.)
Or by shrinking the definition of “desktop” along with falling sales of Windows machines.
Consider the Steam Deck: it dominates a new market segment we might call “handheld PC gaming”. Or even “handheld Windows gaming” -- because they
are Windows-specific games, after all. Except the Steam Deck doesn’t run Windows, it runs a Linux distro called SteamOS. Using that Wine you called “alpha code” to produce a shipping product that people actually want to buy, in preference to its Windows-based competition.
How’s that for “mass acceptance”?
On 12 Jul 2025 06:45:58 GMT, vallor wrote:
MacOS isn't just a Unix, it is UNIX(r).
The two are no longer the same thing. I mentioned the example of MacOS
not conforming to the *nix philosophy elsewhere.
On 7/11/25 5:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 16:34:36 -0700, T wrote:
As far as the user is concerned though, they function and look just
like Windows' icons.
What is so special about Windows’ icons, that make them different from
other icons?
I was wondering abut that too.
From the OP's link, a selling point was "Windows-like desktop icons".
When have Linux's desktop icons ever been an issue?
Linux is technically superior to Windows and not by a little, by a lot.
But Linux desktop(s) won't get mass acceptance until Linux comes up with >>> a way to get the general uses base's "exact" programs to run on Linux.
(Wine is alpha code at best.)
Or by shrinking the definition of “desktop” along with falling sales of >> Windows machines.
Folks are switching to tables and smart phones.
Consider the Steam Deck: it dominates a new market segment we might call
“handheld PC gaming”. Or even “handheld Windows gaming” -- because they
are Windows-specific games, after all. Except the Steam Deck doesn’t run >> Windows, it runs a Linux distro called SteamOS. Using that Wine you called >> “alpha code” to produce a shipping product that people actually want to >> buy, in preference to its Windows-based competition.
How’s that for “mass acceptance”?
It is not. Gaming is a niche application. Not even
close to “mass acceptance”
If you look at
https://appdb.winehq.org/
it is games that run well.
If you filter on "garbage" https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?bIsQueue=false&bIsRejected=false&sClass=application&sTitle=Browse+Applications&iItemsPerPage=25&iPage=1&sOrderBy=appName&bAscending=true
you get 5324 entries
Wine can not run M$ Office (not 365 on line), Quick Books,
Turbotax, Quicken, any Adobe product, virtually
all CAD programs, virtually all accounting programs,
yada, yada, yada.
I run Lotus Approach, which I wrote my accounting system in,
on Wine. Every time Wine does an upgrade, they screw something
up. If it is not the shimmering graphics, the missing menus,
the missing smart icons bar, the missing splash screen, the
inability to configure printers, the inability to print from
Lotus Script, the global pathing not working, it is something
else. They do (mostly) fix their regressions, but it takes
over a year for them to get to it. Then a new version comes
out and it is bug after bug after bug after bug all over again.
Out of desperation, I have to create a qemu-kvm virtual machine
of a older version of Fedora with an older version of Wine that
will run Approach. Wine is one step forward and three steps
backwards. I stand behind my assertion that Wine is alpha
code at best.
Linux will not have "mass acceptance" until users
can run the exact software they run on Windows. Asking
them to abandon everything they have learned/mastered
and do something differently is seen a doing ridiculous
harm to them. They think you are a charlatan. And
they have a point.
If you figure a way to get their exact application to run
under Linux, I will pitch in to erect a status to you.
Have you tried proton? It's WINE on steroids, and is used to run
games on Steam.
On 12 Jul 2025 06:45:58 GMT, vallor wrote:
MacOS isn't just a Unix, it is UNIX(r).
The two are no longer the same thing. I mentioned the example of MacOS not conforming to the *nix philosophy elsewhere.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Being able to run a Usenet newsreader isn't everything. For that I'm
using a Winblows app under Wine.
So Linux isn't up to the job.
Got it.
Actually, it is. It runs Agent very well.
I have a very functioning setup,
though, beyond an NNTP reader, even streaming movies to my TV screen
with the sound in my headphones.
Wow. So ONE task.
I mean, there could be some "OK boomer" activities applied to a Mac,
today, but it's more interesting to just exist online, Linux is what
allows that.
On Jul 10, 2025 at 7:53:00 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 23:38:52 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
On Jul 10, 2025 at 6:51:50 PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Once again, it’s not the OS that looks like this, it’s just
the default GUI desktop environment.
Notice that neither Apple nor Microsoft is rushing to release
anything that looks anything remotely like Linux. I wonder
why?
Maybe it’s because there is no such thing as “looking anything
remotely like Linux”. Linux doesn’t have any particular “look”,
as I mentioned in my posting.
Not to mention that Apple has already made Unix easy to use
and gorgeous.
The only thing “Unix” about Apple is the trademark.
You have said this before. Repeating it does not make it true.
MacOS IS Unix.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
I have a very functioning setup,
though, beyond an NNTP reader, even streaming movies to my TV screen >>>>> with the sound in my headphones.
Wow. So ONE task.
I mean, there could be some "OK boomer" activities applied to a Mac,
today, but it's more interesting to just exist online, Linux is what
allows that.
What does it allow you to do that the Mac doesn't?
It allows you to do it without having to buy a Mac.So nothing else.
On 7/11/25 3:45 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 01:07:08 -0700, T wrote:
But, why not use Xfce if you like that kind of doc's?
Presumably, being Arch-based, you have that choice.
Once again, it’s not the OS that looks like this, it’s just the
default GUI desktop environment.
Oh ya. No fooling. Linux has a ton of GUI choices. Windows
and Mac only have one.
And who said other Linux GUI's desktop icons were
not Windows like.?
Just about everybody.
*nix desktop GUIs pioneered scalable vector-based graphics on the desktop
while Microsoft was (still is?) confined to bitmap graphics.
I frequently set up icons on Linux desktops. Way,
way more configurable than Windows shortcuts.
As far as the user is concerned though, they function and
look just like Windows' icons.
Linux is technically superior to Windows and not by
a little, by a lot. But Linux desktop(s) won't get
mass acceptance until Linux comes up with a way to
get the general uses base's "exact" programs to run
on Linux. (Wine is alpha code at best.)
I am glad I no longer see that nonsense about Linux
GUI's being difficult to use. Even weird old gnome
is easier to use than Windows 11's rip off of
Chromebooks GUI.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
there could be some "OK boomer" activities applied to a Mac,
today, but it's more interesting to just exist online, Linux is what >>>>> allows that.
What does it allow you to do that the Mac doesn't?
It allows you to do it without having to buy a Mac.
So nothing else.
Got it.
It's also the liberated feeling of not having a commercial operating
system.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
[It feels] liberated not having a commercial operating
system.
So nothing else... ...because that's nothing.
Like always, you have nothing.
Macs have the capacity to do everything I can do.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
[It feels] liberated not having a commercial operating
system.
So nothing else... ...because that's nothing.
Like always, you have nothing.
Macs have the capacity to do everything I can do.
And things you can't.
There is far more professional and polished software written for macOS
than for Linux.
And yet you have to put up with Apple's motif.
Once the vast majority of Users (90% or so, I think) got used to using Windows programs, it was difficult for any other OS to make any great
inroads into the Market.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Macs have the capacity to do everything I can do [using Linux].
And things you can't.
There is far more professional and polished software written for macOS >>>> than for Linux.
And yet you have to put up with Apple's motif.
That's it?
That's your best comeback?
Well, what exactly are you doing with these professional apps that's
so important?
Tyrone wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:[...]
On Jul 10, 2025 at 7:53:00?PM EDT, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 23:38:52 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
Maybe it?s because there is no such thing as ?looking anything
remotely like Linux?. Linux doesn?t have any particular ?look?,
as I mentioned in my posting.
Not to mention that Apple has already made Unix easy to use
and gorgeous.
The only thing ?Unix? about Apple is the trademark.
You have said this before. Repeating it does not make it true.
MacOS IS Unix.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/unix/comments/qwklm4/is_macos_unix/>
MacOS is officially Unix? (as a slew of pedantic nerds will
inevitably point out in every thread like this) so that
clueless managers can tick boxes on forms. Meanwhile, that's
not what the rest of us mean. If you say something is running
on a Unix system, MacOS is obviously not what comes to mind.
Describing Macs as "Unix" is just being unnecessarily obtuse.
The software itself also betrays this reality. It's certified
Unix?, yet, for example, POSIX semaphores don't work. There is
a stub header they added in there that just silently does
nothing, which is apparently okay. There are many things like
that. This is more "Unix" than, say, FreeBSD? Hah. I guess it
is if you care more about bureaucracy than reality...
MacOS is clearly more Unix than Windows, and clearly less Unix
than *BSD. This becomes obvious when you port "Unix" software
across these systems: porting across BSDs and Linux is usually
a "fix up a few minor details" sort of task.
a "fix up a few minor details" sort of task. MacOS and
Windows, on the other hand, both tend to require whole new
portability layers because the systems are significantly
different.
Sometimes Windows is even easier, since if you need to touch
the Mac level stuff, you have to interact with an entirely
different universe that clearly doesn't stem from Unix at all.
The interfaces aren't even in C!
The Open Group can - for a
price - call that Unix? if they like. I don't care.
And yet today in the U.S., Windows is 63%, Macs are 24% and Linux is 5%. Those are some pretty big inroads.
Seems to me that "Everybody uses Windows" because of the "Marketing manoeuver" between Intel and Microsoft ...
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
put[ting] up with Apple's motif [is undoable].
That's it?
That's your best comeback?
Well, what exactly are you doing with these professional apps that's
so important?
Desktop publishing, graphic arts, 3D design... ...my accounting.
In that case, you're engaging in work that justifies the investment.
See: for Mac and Windows users, their computers are tools for doing tasks. >>
Linux users seem to seem them as a hobby unto itself.
I could use Winblows just as easily as Linux in theory, but the
hardware requirements are outlandish.
One important part of the *nix philosophy is “mechanism, not policy”. That
is, the kernel and core userland should be a toolbox of useful
functionality, that the user/developer/sysadmin can customize to solve
their particular problems. The mechanisms themselves do not dictate how
they should be used, that comes from the configuration.
Consider how traditional *nix GUIs all built, previously on X11, and now Wayland: all of these take the form of modular, replaceable toolkits that very much conform to the “mechanism, not policy”, dictum.
But Apple’s GUI, like Microsoft’s, is inextricably bound into the OS kernel. It is mechanism and policy, all rolled into one, with no way to separate them out.
That is contrary to the *nix philosophy.
On 2025-07-12 01:53, Joel wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Being able to run a Usenet newsreader isn't everything. For that I'm
using a Winblows app under Wine.
So Linux isn't up to the job.
Got it.
Actually, it is. It runs Agent very well.
I have a very functioning setup,
though, beyond an NNTP reader, even streaming movies to my TV screen
with the sound in my headphones.
Wow. So ONE task.
I mean, there could be some "OK boomer" activities applied to a Mac,
today, but it's more interesting to just exist online, Linux is what
allows that.
What does it allow you to do that the Mac doesn't?
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
You want to pretend your something special because you use Linux.
No, it's the manner in which I use it.
Gaming is a niche application. Not even close to “mass acceptance”
Wine can not run M$ Office (not 365 on line) ...
Quick Books, Turbotax, Quicken ...
... any Adobe product ...
... virtually all CAD programs ...
Every time Wine does an upgrade, they screw something up.
Anyone remember Windows programs running better on OS2 than Windows?
On 2025-07-12 14:49, Joel wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Macs have the capacity to do everything I can do [using Linux].
And things you can't.
There is far more professional and polished software written for macOS >>>>> than for Linux.
And yet you have to put up with Apple's motif.
That's it?
That's your best comeback?
Well, what exactly are you doing with these professional apps that's
so important?
Desktop publishing, graphic arts, 3D design... ...my accounting.
See: for Mac and Windows users, their computers are tools for doing tasks.
Linux users seem to seem them as a hobby unto itself.
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 02:50:01 -0700, T wrote:
Anyone remember Windows programs running better on OS2 than Windows?
OS/2 was totally controlled by IBM, who made it into a marketing disaster that nobody else could salvage.
The Open Source world is a diverse community of projects going in many different directions, with just a small number of crucial components (e.g. Linux, GNU) at its core. Wine took about 15 years to become stable enough
to be dubbed “version 1.0”; no proprietary company would have been able to
muster the patience to persevere that long.
And now, here we are. Even Microsoft is desperately trying to turn Windows into Linux, before it’s too late.
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 02:50:01 -0700, T wrote:
Anyone remember Windows programs running better on OS2 than Windows?
OS/2 was totally controlled by IBM, who made it into a marketing disaster that nobody else could salvage.
The Open Source world is a diverse community of projects going in many different directions, with just a small number of crucial components (e.g. Linux, GNU) at its core. Wine took about 15 years to become stable enough
to be dubbed “version 1.0”; no proprietary company would have been able to
muster the patience to persevere that long.
And now, here we are. Even Microsoft is desperately trying to turn Windows into Linux, before it’s too late.
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 14:55:56 -0400, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in <104ub3s$2970a$3@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-07-12 14:49, Joel wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Macs have the capacity to do everything I can do [using Linux].
And things you can't.
There is far more professional and polished software written for macOS >>>>>> than for Linux.
And yet you have to put up with Apple's motif.
That's it?
That's your best comeback?
Well, what exactly are you doing with these professional apps that's
so important?
Desktop publishing, graphic arts, 3D design... ...my accounting.
See: for Mac and Windows users, their computers are tools for doing tasks. >>
Linux users seem to seem them as a hobby unto itself.
In advocacy groups? Sure.
(I know you've heard of Blender and Da Vinci Resolve...)
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 21:13:00 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote in <qu167kdf35rdtsmn0q5gdfsbmhe9b4q89i@4ax.com>:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
You want to pretend your something special because you use Linux.
No, it's the manner in which I use it.
Can one even run ForteAgent on a Mac?
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 02:50:01 -0700, T wrote:
Anyone remember Windows programs running better on OS2 than Windows?
OS/2 was totally controlled by IBM, who made it into a marketing disaster that nobody else could salvage.
The Open Source world is a diverse community of projects going in many different directions, with just a small number of crucial components (e.g. Linux, GNU) at its core. Wine took about 15 years to become stable enough
to be dubbed “version 1.0”; no proprietary company would have been able to
muster the patience to persevere that long.
And now, here we are. Even Microsoft is desperately trying to turn Windows into Linux, before it’s too late.
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 01:06:29 -0700, T wrote:
Gaming is a niche application. Not even close to “mass acceptance”
Does Hollywood count as a “niche” market? Because video games have more money spent on them (budgets and sales) than Hollywood movies can manage.
Wine can not run M$ Office (not 365 on line) ...
Nobody cares about on-prem Office any more. Microsoft 365 is where it’s
at, and that is officially supported under Linux.
Quick Books, Turbotax, Quicken ...
Maybe you haven’t noticed that those are being supplanted by cloud-based products too ... which work fine under Linux.
... any Adobe product ...
Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
... virtually all CAD programs ...
We have open-source ones that are at least as good, certainly more
flexible and versatile.
On 2025-07-12 21:16, vallor wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 21:13:00 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote inYes, actually.
<qu167kdf35rdtsmn0q5gdfsbmhe9b4q89i@4ax.com>:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
You want to pretend your something special because you use Linux.
No, it's the manner in which I use it.
Can one even run ForteAgent on a Mac?
In the exact same manner he runs it.
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 22:28:12 -0400, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in <104v5js$2eqv2$1@dont-email.me>:Ah, yes. It is on an Intel processor...
On 2025-07-12 21:16, vallor wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 21:13:00 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote inYes, actually.
<qu167kdf35rdtsmn0q5gdfsbmhe9b4q89i@4ax.com>:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
You want to pretend your something special because you use Linux.
No, it's the manner in which I use it.
Can one even run ForteAgent on a Mac?
In the exact same manner he runs it.
...even on an newer (ARM) processor?
I guess it would work, with WINE running on the Intel
emulator...?
<snip>
Desktop publishing, graphic arts, 3D design... ...my accounting.
See: for Mac and Windows users, their computers are tools for doing tasks. >>>
Linux users seem to seem them as a hobby unto itself.
In advocacy groups? Sure.
(I know you've heard of Blender and Da Vinci Resolve...)
I have indeed.
Linux is now not completely useless.
Of course, I've got Blender and a whole raft of other options.
Same for Resolve.
:-)
Alan wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
<snip>
Desktop publishing, graphic arts, 3D design... ...my accounting.
See: for Mac and Windows users, their computers are tools for doing tasks. >>>>
Linux users seem to seem them as a hobby unto itself.
In advocacy groups? Sure.
(I know you've heard of Blender and Da Vinci Resolve...)
I have indeed.
Linux is now not completely useless.
Of course, I've got Blender and a whole raft of other options.
Same for Resolve.
:-)
<https://www.davidrevoy.com/static2/about-me>
My name is David Revoy (nickname Deevad) and I'm a French artist living in
the south of France near Montauban. I'll have soon 20 years of experience
at working remotely as a freelance artist. My skills and expertise include
illustration, art-direction, concept-art, storytelling and teaching. In
short: I create artworks for comics, books, posters, board-games,
video-games and movies. My clients are located all around the world. I'm
working only with Free/Libre and Open-Source Software on a Gnu/Linux
system, and that since 2009.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crVzPjiA8qE&t=2620s>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qistxioVgMw>
Linux live techno performance + how it's made (unfa live 2019-12-01)
and
Free and open-source software I use for music production
Just a couple of people who (like some of us here) use Linux for *everything*.
Anyone remember Windows programs running better on
OS2 than Windows?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
And now, here we are. Even Microsoft is desperately trying to turn Windows >> into Linux, before its too late.
Stating the obvious: they've already included Linux in newer
versions of Windows.
I used to rub DFS's nose in that. Must have some merit.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
T wrote:
Gaming is a niche application. Not even close to mass acceptance
Does Hollywood count as a niche market? Because video games have more
money spent on them (budgets and sales) than Hollywood movies can manage.
Wine can not run M$ Office (not 365 on line) ...
Nobody cares about on-prem Office any more. Microsoft 365 is where its
at, and that is officially supported under Linux.
Quick Books, Turbotax, Quicken ...
Maybe you havent noticed that those are being supplanted by cloud-based
products too ... which work fine under Linux.
... any Adobe product ...
Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
Anything you can't have is irrelevant.
Got it.
I'm not saying that people can't CHOOSE to use Linux for everything, but
a couple of things, but:
And I'm sorry, but his choices ARE MORE LIMITED.
I have no problem with people who choose to use Linux.
My problem is with people who claim some form of moral high ground or
"1337" status BECAUSE they use Linux.
Alan wrote:
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
T wrote:
Does Hollywood count as a “niche” market? Because video games have more >>> money spent on them (budgets and sales) than Hollywood movies can manage. >>>
Gaming is a niche application. Not even close to “mass acceptance” >>>
Wine can not run M$ Office (not 365 on line) ...
Nobody cares about on-prem Office any more. Microsoft 365 is where it’s >>> at, and that is officially supported under Linux.
Quick Books, Turbotax, Quicken ...
Maybe you haven’t noticed that those are being supplanted by cloud-based >>> products too ... which work fine under Linux.
... any Adobe product ...
Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
Anything you can't have is irrelevant.
Got it.
What an asshole comment.
Response will be deleted, unread.
On 2025-07-13 08:43, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
Alan wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
<snip>
Desktop publishing, graphic arts, 3D design... ...my accounting.
See: for Mac and Windows users, their computers are tools for doing tasks.
Linux users seem to seem them as a hobby unto itself.
In advocacy groups? Sure.
(I know you've heard of Blender and Da Vinci Resolve...)
I have indeed.
Linux is now not completely useless.
Of course, I've got Blender and a whole raft of other options.
Same for Resolve.
:-)
<https://www.davidrevoy.com/static2/about-me>
My name is David Revoy (nickname Deevad) and I'm a French artist living in
the south of France near Montauban. I'll have soon 20 years of experience
at working remotely as a freelance artist. My skills and expertise include
illustration, art-direction, concept-art, storytelling and teaching. In >> short: I create artworks for comics, books, posters, board-games,
video-games and movies. My clients are located all around the world. I'm
working only with Free/Libre and Open-Source Software on a Gnu/Linux
system, and that since 2009.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crVzPjiA8qE&t=2620s>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qistxioVgMw>
Linux live techno performance + how it's made (unfa live 2019-12-01)
and
Free and open-source software I use for music production
Just a couple of people who (like some of us here) use Linux for *everything*.
I'm not saying that people can't CHOOSE to use Linux for everything, but
a couple of things, but:
You can't actually vet his claims, can you?
And I'm sorry, but his choices ARE MORE LIMITED.
I have no problem with people who choose to use Linux.
My problem is with people who claim some form of moral high ground or
"1337" status BECAUSE they use Linux.
... any Adobe product ...
Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
Anything you can't have is irrelevant.
Got it.
What an asshole comment.
On 2025-07-13 00:31, vallor wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 22:28:12 -0400, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote inAh, yes. It is on an Intel processor...
<104v5js$2eqv2$1@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-07-12 21:16, vallor wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 21:13:00 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wroteYes, actually.
in <qu167kdf35rdtsmn0q5gdfsbmhe9b4q89i@4ax.com>:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
You want to pretend your something special because you use Linux.
No, it's the manner in which I use it.
Can one even run ForteAgent on a Mac?
In the exact same manner he runs it.
...even on an newer (ARM) processor?
I guess it would work, with WINE running on the Intel emulator...?
...but then there isn't yet a finished Linux distro for ARM at all, is
there?
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-07-13 00:31, vallor wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 22:28:12 -0400, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote inAh, yes. It is on an Intel processor...
<104v5js$2eqv2$1@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-07-12 21:16, vallor wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 21:13:00 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote >>>>> in <qu167kdf35rdtsmn0q5gdfsbmhe9b4q89i@4ax.com>:Yes, actually.
Can one even run ForteAgent on a Mac?
In the exact same manner he runs it.
...even on an newer (ARM) processor?
I guess it would work, with WINE running on the Intel emulator...?
...but then there isn't yet a finished Linux distro for ARM at all, is >>there?
You can definitely put Linux on an ARM device including a Mac.
We have open-source ones that are at least as good, certainly more
flexible and versatile.
What is the BEST CAD program available for Linux?
Gaming is a niche application. Not even close to “mass acceptance”
Does Hollywood count as a “niche” market? Because video games have more money spent on them (budgets and sales) than Hollywood movies can manage.
Every time Wine does an upgrade, they screw something up.
As opposed to Windows upgrades, which work so well that people
automatically accept them as a matter of course, with no reservations?
Seems to me that "Everybody uses Windows" because of the "Marketing manoeuver" between Intel and Microsoft (back on the Bill Gates days,
late 80's/early 90s) when nearly every Home Computer came with Windows 3
(or thereabouts) pre-installed for nothing.
Once the vast majority of Users (90% or so, I think) got used to using Windows programs, it was difficult for any other OS to make any great
inroads into the Market.
Virtually none of my customer even know what their
operating system is. They only care if their programs run in it.
On 7/12/25 9:16 PM, Alan wrote:
We have open-source ones that are at least as good, certainly more
flexible and versatile.
What is the BEST CAD program available for Linux?
Which ones are better than Solid Works and Auto CAD?
On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 15:36:12 -0700, T wrote:
Virtually none of my customer even know what their
operating system is. They only care if their programs run in it.
Most of the serious business stuff is in the cloud nowadays. You could
access it just as well on a Chromebook.
Unless it’s something obsolete and unsupported, that you shouldn’t be betting your business on anyway ...
On Jul 12, 2025 at 5:50:01 AM EDT, "T" <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Anyone remember Windows programs running better on
OS2 than Windows?
Yes. I used OS/2 from 1993 to around 1997 when it became clear it was going nowhere. 16 bit Windows software (Windows 3/3.1) did run better. Or at least, when the apps crashed it only crashed the Windows subsystem. OS/2 continued along just fine.
But by then, we had 32 bit Windows and apps which OS/2 was not compatible with. So I gave up on OS/2. Pretty sure I still have a VM around here with eComStation (OS/2 4.51) that was released by Serenity Systems.
Ah, the Good Old Days.
.. any Adobe product ...
Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
Anything you can't have is irrelevant.
Got it.
... any Adobe product ...Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
On 7/12/25 6:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
... any Adobe product ...Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
99% Hmmmmmm...
Virtually every PC with Windows I come across
uses Adobe's Acrobat Reader. Yes there are alternatives,
but they do not work so well (PDF Studio and Master PDF
Creator are exceptions, be they require retraining and
a fee for full functionality).
Try getting Acrobat reader to run under Wine. Good luck.
I also see the Full Acrobat at times. And occasionally
Photoshop.
On Mon, 7/14/2025 12:25 AM, T wrote:
On 7/12/25 6:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
... any Adobe product ...Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
99% Hmmmmmm...
Virtually every PC with Windows I come across
uses Adobe's Acrobat Reader. Yes there are alternatives,
but they do not work so well (PDF Studio and Master PDF
Creator are exceptions, be they require retraining and
a fee for full functionality).
Try getting Acrobat reader to run under Wine. Good luck.
I also see the Full Acrobat at times. And occasionally
Photoshop.
I've got Acrobat Reader 9 installed on one of my OSes.
That's the one that is actually for the user.
Versus the Adobe Marketing Department.
I'm using Okular here, and have a Windows copy and a Bash shell copy
loaded, so I can start it from either side. That's after
I swore at the Acrobat Reader 10, removed it, and filled
out the feedback form after removal :-)
Paul
On 7/12/25 6:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Gaming is a niche application. Not even close to “mass acceptance”
Does Hollywood count as a “niche” market? Because video games have more >> money spent on them (budgets and sales) than Hollywood movies can
manage.
Yes it is a niche market.
Oh, and see if you can get their s*** to run on Wine. QuickBooks is the
Linux killer of all time.
Every time Wine does an upgrade, they screw something up.
As opposed to Windows upgrades, which work so well that people
automatically accept them as a matter of course, with no reservations?
My experience is that Wine is far worse than Windows.
On 7/12/25 9:16 PM, Alan wrote:
We have open-source ones that are at least as good, certainly more
flexible and versatile.
What is the BEST CAD program available for Linux?
Which ones are better than Solid Works and Auto CAD?
On 7/12/25 6:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
... any Adobe product ...
Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
99% Hmmmmmm...
Virtually every PC with Windows I come across uses Adobe's Acrobat
Reader.
On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 21:25:10 -0700, T wrote:
On 7/12/25 6:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
... any Adobe product ...
Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
99% Hmmmmmm...
Virtually every PC with Windows I come across uses Adobe's Acrobat
Reader.
They won’t miss it. It’s such a resource-hungry piece of proprietary sadness. There are more efficient and more versatile alternatives
available in the open-source space.
But is that really the only Adobe product you can think of that’s important? That already kind of proves my point.
On 7/13/25 6:14 AM, Tyrone wrote:
On Jul 12, 2025 at 5:50:01 AM EDT, "T" <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Anyone remember Windows programs running better on
OS2 than Windows?
Yes. I used OS/2 from 1993 to around 1997 when it became clear it was going >> nowhere. 16 bit Windows software (Windows 3/3.1) did run better. Or at least,
when the apps crashed it only crashed the Windows subsystem. OS/2 continued >> along just fine.
But by then, we had 32 bit Windows and apps which OS/2 was not compatible
with. So I gave up on OS/2. Pretty sure I still have a VM around here with >> eComStation (OS/2 4.51) that was released by Serenity Systems.
Ah, the Good Old Days.
Speaking of which, do you remember Windows For Workgroups
3.11 (WFW 3.11) I installed that a lot, even when there
was no network as it cleanup up a bunch of bugs in
Win 3.11. WFW 3.11 was sweet.
I also remember losing a few customers as I refused to
pirate WFW 3.11. Don't get many that want me to
pirate now-a-days.
Mainly because Windows no longer costs $150 - $200. You can buy
licenses (if you actually need one, you can upgrade from any version)
for Windows 11 Home or Pro for $10 today. Good for installing on 2
machines. DL the ISO from Microsoft and install it. That's how I have Windows 11 Arm running in a VM on this MacBook Pro. But it was $18 two
years ago when I bought it.
[Adobe] are making enough money off the software rental model,
to keep the lights on.
On 7/13/25 5:09 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 15:36:12 -0700, T wrote:
Virtually none of my customer even know what their operating system
is. They only care if their programs run in it.
Most of the serious business stuff is in the cloud nowadays. You could
access it just as well on a Chromebook.
1+
Quickbooks is TERRIBLE on the Cloud.
Unless it’s something obsolete and unsupported, that you shouldn’t be
betting your business on anyway ...
Cloud versus Edge. Somethings work better in the Cloud (client/server
with a crapped connect between the two) and some things work better on
the Edge. The goal is the right balance.
On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 06:07:08 -0400, Paul wrote:
[Adobe] are making enough money off the software rental model,
to keep the lights on.
I’m sure they are. But the question was, is their market share big enough to hinder migrations from Windows to Linux en masse? And the answer is no.
On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 21:25:10 -0700, T wrote:
On 7/12/25 6:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
... any Adobe product ...
Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
99% Hmmmmmm...
Virtually every PC with Windows I come across uses Adobe's Acrobat
Reader.
They won’t miss it. It’s such a resource-hungry piece of proprietary sadness. There are more efficient and more versatile alternatives
available in the open-source space.
But is that really the only Adobe product you can think of that’s important? That already kind of proves my point.
Yes, I used that too. For my 2 (or 3?) PCs I had at the time. Beat the hell out of Novell Netware, in price and simplicity.h, the Good Old Days.
Speaking of which, do you remember Windows For Workgroups
3.11 (WFW 3.11) I installed that a lot, even when there
was no network as it cleanup up a bunch of bugs in
Win 3.11. WFW 3.11 was sweet.
I also remember losing a few customers as I refused to
pirate WFW 3.11. Don't get many that want me to
pirate now-a-days.
Mainly because Windows no longer costs $150 - $200. You can buy licenses (if you actually need one, you can upgrade from any version) for Windows 11 Home or Pro for $10 today. Good for installing on 2 machines. DL the ISO from Microsoft and install it. That's how I have Windows 11 Arm running in a VM on this MacBook Pro. But it was $18 two years ago when I bought it.
On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 15:19:16 -0700, T wrote:
On 7/12/25 9:16 PM, Alan wrote:
We have open-source ones that are at least as good, certainly more
flexible and versatile.
What is the BEST CAD program available for Linux?
Which ones are better than Solid Works and Auto CAD?
Install a common Linux distro and have a look through its standard package repo. You’ll find them soon enough.
The difference is, Wine gets better, while Windows gets worse
On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 18:19:59 -0700, T wrote:
On 7/13/25 5:09 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 15:36:12 -0700, T wrote:
Virtually none of my customer even know what their operating system
is. They only care if their programs run in it.
Most of the serious business stuff is in the cloud nowadays. You could
access it just as well on a Chromebook.
1+
Quickbooks is TERRIBLE on the Cloud.
So use something else, that is more naturally suited to the cloud. Like
Xero.
Unless it’s something obsolete and unsupported, that you shouldn’t be >>> betting your business on anyway ...
Cloud versus Edge. Somethings work better in the Cloud (client/server
with a crapped connect between the two) and some things work better on
the Edge. The goal is the right balance.
Should you be entrusting mission-critical business operations to obsolete, unsupported software?
On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 13:22:22 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
Mainly because Windows no longer costs $150 - $200. You can buy
licenses (if you actually need one, you can upgrade from any
version) for Windows 11 Home or Pro for $10 today. Good for
installing on 2 machines. DL the ISO from Microsoft and install
it. That's how I have Windows 11 Arm running in a VM on this
MacBook Pro. But it was $18 two years ago when I bought it.
Does that explain the deteriorating quality of Windows releases? To
cut costs, they have had to cut back on QA.
Which means Windows releases become more and more buggy. And even the
patches they bring out to fix those bugs have undergone less and less testing, so they are more prone to a) not properly fix to the
problem, and/or b) cause new problems requiring further fixes.
But isn't that where you and I come in, Beta Testers for MS?? 😜
chrisv wrote:
... any Adobe product ...
Which are an irrelevance to 99% of PC users anyway.
Anything you can't have is irrelevant.
Got it.
What an asshole comment.
We've dealt with assholes raving about "Adobe" products, *very*
niche-market products, for decades, and we're still hearing it.
"Anything you can't have is irrelevant. Got it." says some asshole.
No, but niche-market "pro" products sure ain't need by the majority!
And YMMV on how much one will want to scream "niche!" but there still
are some instances where business is done offline sans internet access.
By the same token there's also the philosophical question of if we
really need to have one tool that can do everything.
vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 22:28:12 -0400, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in >><104v5js$2eqv2$1@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-07-12 21:16, vallor wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2025 21:13:00 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote in >>>> <qu167kdf35rdtsmn0q5gdfsbmhe9b4q89i@4ax.com>:Yes, actually.
Can one even run ForteAgent on a Mac?
In the exact same manner he runs it.
...even on an newer (ARM) processor?
I guess it would work, with WINE running on the Intel
emulator...?
Intel apps work under the Apple emulation with Wine, yes, it's quite
awesome.
NT server ate Novell's lunch.
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily the
past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business workflow documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:42:49 -0700, T wrote:
NT server ate Novell's lunch.
And now Linux has eaten NT Server’s lunch. That’s why you notice Microsoft
is putting less and less effort into the on-prem version of Windows
Server, while it continues to retreat into the cloud.
And the cloud is already dominated by Linux.Including M$'s cloud services.
So that retreat is no more
than a rearguard action, whose days are numbered.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:05:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily the
past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business workflow
documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
Nobody seriously uses Adobe tools for working with PDF. PDF is an open
spec -- it’s not even under Adobe’s control any more, it’s now managed by
ISO. And there are loads of tools for implementing PDF workflows on Linux. These are the kinds of things used in serious production work.
You can run all current Windows and Mac applications
On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:42:49 -0700, T wrote:
NT server ate Novell's lunch.
And now Linux has eaten NT Server’s lunch. That’s why you notice Microsoft
is putting less and less effort into the on-prem version of Windows
Server, while it continues to retreat into the cloud.
And the cloud is already dominated by Linux. So that retreat is no more
than a rearguard action, whose days are numbered.
pothead wrote:
On 2025-07-12, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-07-12 01:53, Joel wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
Being able to run a Usenet newsreader isn't everything. For that I'm >>>>>> using a Winblows app under Wine.
So Linux isn't up to the job.
Got it.
Actually, it is. It runs Agent very well.
I have a very functioning setup,
though, beyond an NNTP reader, even streaming movies to my TV screen >>>>>> with the sound in my headphones.
Wow. So ONE task.
I mean, there could be some "OK boomer" activities applied to a Mac,
today, but it's more interesting to just exist online, Linux is what
allows that.
What does it allow you to do that the Mac doesn't?
1. Agent runs like crap in Wine.
<https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=59>
2. Apple devices in general retain their value far better than the
alternatives.
For computers specifically, Apple computers retain their value very
well vs
home built units which plummet in value. Branded units like HP and
Dell do better
But Apple does even better.
Of course resale value is not the only criteria.
Just saying.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:05:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily the
past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business workflow
documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
Nobody seriously uses Adobe tools for working with PDF. PDF is an open
spec -- it’s not even under Adobe’s control any more, it’s now managed by
ISO. And there are loads of tools for implementing PDF workflows on Linux. These are the kinds of things used in serious production work.
On 7/15/25 9:21 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:05:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily the
past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business workflow >>> documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
Nobody seriously uses Adobe tools for working with PDF. PDF is an open
spec -- it’s not even under Adobe’s control any more, it’s now managed by
ISO. And there are loads of tools for implementing PDF workflows on Linux. >> These are the kinds of things used in serious production work.
I think you are lost in wishful thinking.
I have customers using Acrobat. They are quite fond of it.
On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 06:07:08 -0400, Paul wrote:
[Adobe] are making enough money off the software rental model,
to keep the lights on.
I?m sure they are. But the question was, is their market share big enough
to hinder migrations from Windows to Linux en masse? And the answer is no.
I have literally never seen someone use JS in a PDF, and that seems like
a really bad idea in general.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:05:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily the
past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business workflow >>> documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
Nobody seriously uses Adobe tools for working with PDF. PDF is an open
spec -- it’s not even under Adobe’s control any more, it’s now managed by
ISO. And there are loads of tools for implementing PDF workflows on Linux. >> These are the kinds of things used in serious production work.
What about ...?
AI Overview
While PDF is an open standard, Adobe still maintains some proprietary
elements within its implementation, specifically within Adobe Acrobat.
These include certain features and technologies like the Adobe XML Forms
Architecture (XFA), JavaScript used in forms, and some specific compression
and security settings. These proprietary aspects are not part of the core
ISO standard for PDF.
T wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
On 7/15/25 9:21 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:05:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily the >>>> past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business workflow >>>> documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
Nobody seriously uses Adobe tools for working with PDF. PDF is an open
spec -- it’s not even under Adobe’s control any more, it’s now managed by
ISO. And there are loads of tools for implementing PDF workflows on Linux. >>> These are the kinds of things used in serious production work.
I think you are lost in wishful thinking.
I have customers using Acrobat. They are quite fond of it.
Before I retired a couple years ago, I had to use it sometimes.
Hated it.
It was crapware/bloatware as far as I was concerned.
On 7/15/25 9:21 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:05:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily
the past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business
workflow documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
Nobody seriously uses Adobe tools for working with PDF. PDF is an open
spec -- it’s not even under Adobe’s control any more, it’s now managed >> by ISO. And there are loads of tools for implementing PDF workflows on
Linux. These are the kinds of things used in serious production work.
On 7/14/25 12:59 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. They do not exist.
There was an engineer on YouTube who confessed to use open-source
apps for some paid jobs, instead of the usual proprietary ones.
The customer hardly notices and they are not about to spend
the time retraining from something they already like and use.
On 15/07/2025 8:03 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Does that explain the deteriorating quality of Windows releases? To cut
costs, they have had to cut back on QA.
But isn't that where you and I come in, Beta Testers for MS?? ;-P
When working with Fedroa, I have to ask fedora what version it is. I
can't just tell by looking like I can with M$.
On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:54:20 -0700, T wrote:
On 7/14/25 12:59 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. They do not exist.
There was an engineer on YouTube who confessed to use open-source
apps for some paid jobs, instead of the usual proprietary ones.
It was the Joko Engineering channel, I believe. Go check out some of
their videos.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 06:55:07 -0700, T wrote:
When working with Fedroa, I have to ask fedora what version it is. I
can't just tell by looking like I can with M$.
You mean on Windows you can tell the OS version by looking at the GUI, and
on Linux you can’t?
That’s because on Windows, the GUI is inextricably tied into the OS, on Linux it’s not -- it’s a separate replaceable, modular layer. The decoupling between the two on Linux is not a bug, it’s a feature.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:19:07 -0700, T wrote:
You have to get "ALL" of the users programs that he has invested
intellectually in and trained in before the user will consider
switching.
By that time they’ve gone out of business. So one way or another, the problem solves itself.
On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:45:32 -0700, T wrote:
The customer hardly notices and they are not about to spend
the time retraining from something they already like and use.
Even leaving aside your use of the word “like”, the upcoming end of Windows 10 is going to force them to make some hard choices. Sure, the
path of least resistance is they will stick with running their mission- critical business functions on obsolete, unsupported software. But that is not a recipe for adaptability to market changes and future longevity.
On 7/16/25 11:09, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
T wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
On 7/15/25 9:21 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:05:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily the >>>>> past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business workflow >>>>> documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
Nobody seriously uses Adobe tools for working with PDF. PDF is an open >>>> spec -- it’s not even under Adobe’s control any more, it’s now managed by
ISO. And there are loads of tools for implementing PDF workflows on Linux. >>>> These are the kinds of things used in serious production work.
I think you are lost in wishful thinking.
I have customers using Acrobat. They are quite fond of it.
Before I retired a couple years ago, I had to use it sometimes.
Same; was embedded in several of our corporate workflows and I had no problems with it.
Hated it.
Perhaps it was local variations, for whoever did the integration with
our systems was quite painless - even the secure authentication
requirement on our encrypted CAC credentialing: pretty much it was just
a click on the signature field and the password UI would pop up the box.
It was crapware/bloatware as far as I was concerned.
YMMV applies. There's learning curve when crafting one's own forms/docs
to find the specific tool that you know/remember exists, but that's
always present with any sufficiently complex/powerful tool.
<snip>
But Linux on the 'desktop' - both stationary and laptops - is nowhere
to be found (compared to Windows, macOS, ChromeOS, etc.).
<snip>
As said many times: Windows isn't a religion, we just use it. And most Windows users don't feel the need to attack <insert_other_OS>.
On 7/16/25 12:20 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
I have literally never seen someone use JS in a PDF, and that seems like
a really bad idea in general.
The state of Nevada had them in their sales tax form for a
tiny bit of time. They eventually dropped it. It did not
work at all: too many boo-boos
I have recently started adding math to some of my PDF's.
Not sure what language it is. Maybe you recognize it:
var i = util.printf("%0.2f", this.getField("A").value + this.getField("B").value + this.getField("C").value)
this.getField("D").value = i
I have recently started adding math to some of my PDF's.
Not sure what language it is. Maybe you recognize it:
var i = util.printf("%0.2f", this.getField("A").value +
this.getField("B").value + this.getField("C").value)
this.getField("D").value = i
Looking it up, it seems to be node.JS.
Also, why not just calculate the math values in another app and just
export it to pdf?
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:05:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily the
past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business workflow
documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
Nobody seriously uses Adobe tools for working with PDF. PDF is an open
spec -- it’s not even under Adobe’s control any more, it’s now managed by
ISO. And there are loads of tools for implementing PDF workflows on Linux. These are the kinds of things used in serious production work.
On 7/16/25 00:21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 11:05:57 -0400, -hh wrote:
An example of no longer niche is Adobe Acrobat.
It has been quite commonplace in modern business offices for easily
the past decade for PDF authoring, certified signatures in business
workflow documents and so forth.
Adobe Acrobat does not have native support for Linux.
Nobody seriously uses Adobe tools for working with PDF. PDF is an open
spec -- it’s not even under Adobe’s control any more, it’s now managed >> by ISO. And there are loads of tools for implementing PDF workflows on
Linux. These are the kinds of things used in serious production work.
Is this "Nobody seriously..." statement a No True Scotsman attempt? /s
As said many times: Windows isn't a religion, we just use it. And most Windows users don't feel the need to attack <insert_other_OS>.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
On 7/18/25 3:11 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
1+
Frank Slootweg wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
<snip>
But Linux on the 'desktop' - both stationary and laptops - is nowhere
to be found (compared to Windows, macOS, ChromeOS, etc.).
<https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/>
4.1% ain't nothin' like "nowhere to be found".
<snip>
As said many times: Windows isn't a religion, we just use it. And most Windows users don't feel the need to attack <insert_other_OS>.
Au contraire, in the past Windows fans, and Microsoft itself, trolled and put plenty of roadblocks up for Linux. And harassed the HELL out of Linux supporters.
Remember this site?
<https://www.groklaw.net/>
<https://www.groklaw.net/article_story-20130818120421175.html>
On 17/07/2025 5:11 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
<Snip>
As said many times: Windows isn't a religion, we just use it. And most Windows users don't feel the need to attack <insert_other_OS>.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
As long as (whatever OS that was pre-installed) keeps working, why
should anybody be looking for a new OS to install??
Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
As long as (whatever OS that was pre-installed) keeps working, why
should anybody be looking for a new OS to install??
Not only that, but if your current OS runs the software which *you* *use/need*,
why on earth 'switch' to another OS which doesn't!? And that of
course goes for any OS.
On 18/07/2025 8:45 pm, T wrote:
On 7/18/25 3:11 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
1+
Mind you .... it is still my intention to install Linux on this box.
As long as (whatever OS that was pre-installed) keeps working, why
should anybody be looking for a new OS to install??
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
On Fri, 18 Jul 2025 20:11:54 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
As long as (whatever OS that was pre-installed) keeps working, why
should anybody be looking for a new OS to install??
Would you, should you, entrust mission-critical business operations to obsolete, unsupported software?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Until the day it does break, is the day you discover you don’t know how to fix it.
On 7/18/25 4:36 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 18/07/2025 8:45 pm, T wrote:
On 7/18/25 3:11 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
1+
Mind you .... it is still my intention to install Linux on this box.
Fly before you buy! You can cut a Live USB with Rufus:
https://fedoraproject.org/spins/
Xfce, MATE, KDE are all good.
And yo can always run a qemu-kvm virtual machine of
Windows for that one last annoying Windows software
you have not found a replacement you like for
that runs like s*** in Wine.
Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
On 17/07/2025 5:11 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
<Snip>
As said many times: Windows isn't a religion, we just use it. And most >>> Windows users don't feel the need to attack <insert_other_OS>.If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
As long as (whatever OS that was pre-installed) keeps working, why
should anybody be looking for a new OS to install??
Not only that, but if your current OS runs the software which *you* *use/need*, why on earth 'switch' to another OS which doesn't!?
And that of course goes for any OS.
Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
<snip>
Remember this site?
<https://www.groklaw.net/>
<https://www.groklaw.net/article_story-20130818120421175.html>
Nope, and I cannot find the words 'Windows', 'Microsoft' or 'Linux' on
that page.
On Fri, 18 Jul 2025 20:11:54 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
As long as (whatever OS that was pre-installed) keeps working, why
should anybody be looking for a new OS to install??
Would you, should you, entrust mission-critical business operations to obsolete, unsupported software?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Until the day it does break, is the day you discover you don?t know how to fix it.
On Wed, 7/16/2025 12:23 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
You must be using your special Psychic Power to figure this out.
On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:42:49 -0700, T wrote:
NT server ate Novell's lunch.
And now Linux has eaten NT Server’s lunch. That’s why you notice
Microsoft is putting less and less effort into the on-prem version
of Windows Server, while it continues to retreat into the cloud.
And the cloud is already dominated by Linux. So that retreat is no
more than a rearguard action, whose days are numbered.
On Wed, 16 Jul 2025 05:24:36 -0400, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 7/16/2025 12:23 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
You must be using your special Psychic Power to figure this out.
On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:42:49 -0700, T wrote:
NT server ate Novell's lunch.
And now Linux has eaten NT Server’s lunch. That’s why you notice
Microsoft is putting less and less effort into the on-prem version
of Windows Server, while it continues to retreat into the cloud.
And the cloud is already dominated by Linux. So that retreat is no
more than a rearguard action, whose days are numbered.
It’s no big secret. Just look at Microsoft’s own future roadmap for Windows Server.
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