As Linux turns to shit with the incursion of junk like systemd,
wayland,
and who knows what else the future will bring, it's
good to start considering some alternatives.
Of course there is FreeBSD.
There is also OpenIndiana:
https://www.openindiana.org/
Are there any others?
Linux will turn to shit. It's only a matter of time.
Some group will likely fork it,
but I hope that happens before the damage has gone too far.
Same mistake, same answer: Linux doesn't need any graphical tool to run.
X11 and wayland are provided by the distros, they are not required by
Linux.
On 24 Aug 2025 13:04:53 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Same mistake, same answer: Linux doesn't need any graphical tool to run.
X11 and wayland are provided by the distros, they are not required by
Linux.
Unless all one does, like you, is text file editing a GUI is essential.
A GUI is essential but that GUI should be X11 and not Wayland.
If freedesktop.org and Qt remove X11 support from their toolkits
then Linux will become pure shit.
Try to understand the difference:
- I need GUI
- Linux needs GUI
As I said: nobody wants to take care of X11 anymore.
Of course there is FreeBSD.
Of couse there is. It's useless for a real user environment, but it's
good for a server.
I'll probably still Linux this new device, but not yet.
On Sun, 24 Aug 2025 08:10:23 -0400, Joel W. Crump wrote:
I'll probably still Linux this new device, but not yet.
Did you just use “Linux” as a verb ... ?
On the other hand, this means I can tell Windows users to go Microsoft themselves ...
Le 24-08-2025, Lester Thorpe <lt@gnu.rocks> a écrit :
On 24 Aug 2025 13:04:53 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Same mistake, same answer: Linux doesn't need any graphical tool to run. >>> X11 and wayland are provided by the distros, they are not required by
Linux.
Unless all one does, like you, is text file editing a GUI is essential.
Try to understand the difference:
- I need GUI
- Linux needs GUI
The first is right, not the second.
A GUI is essential but that GUI should be X11 and not Wayland.
As I said: nobody wants to take care of X11 anymore. It's dead. One guy
tried to make it evolve but he has been thrown away by literally
everyone involved in X11. You still can use it if you want but it wont improve anymore. Of course X11 being open source you could improve it,
but you would need to learn how to program first.
So X11 is dead and Wayland is the only available alternative. You can
create a third better alternative, but it would be way more difficult
for you than to help X11.
If freedesktop.org and Qt remove X11 support from their toolkits
then Linux will become pure shit.
What do you believe? That X11 will strive under BSD when it's dead under Linux?
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 08:47:36 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
I believe that the BSD people aren't as hostile to X11 as the Linux
people are.
But they haven’t created their own fork, have they?
I believe that the BSD people aren't as hostile to X11 as the Linux
people are.
On 2025-08-25 5:50 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 08:47:36 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
I believe that the BSD people aren't as hostile to X11 as the Linux
people are.
But they haven’t created their own fork, have they?
The BSD people haven't, but someone else has. I mentioned it in name:
XLibre.
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 18:09:31 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-08-25 5:50 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 08:47:36 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
I believe that the BSD people aren't as hostile to X11 as the Linux
people are.
But they haven’t created their own fork, have they?
The BSD people haven't, but someone else has. I mentioned it in name:
XLibre.
Are the BSD folks using that?
On 2025-08-25 8:39 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 18:09:31 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-08-25 5:50 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 08:47:36 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
I believe that the BSD people aren't as hostile to X11 as the Linux
people are.
But they haven’t created their own fork, have they?
The BSD people haven't, but someone else has. I mentioned it in name:
XLibre.
Are the BSD folks using that?
The project just started.
On the Linux side, the fascists controlling the many distributions are
doing everything they can to blacklist it.
On the BSD side, there is hope that people will see merit to using it
over X11.
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 21:18:24 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-08-25 8:39 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 18:09:31 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-08-25 5:50 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 08:47:36 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
I believe that the BSD people aren't as hostile to X11 as the Linux >>>>>> people are.
But they haven’t created their own fork, have they?
The BSD people haven't, but someone else has. I mentioned it in name:
XLibre.
Are the BSD folks using that?
The project just started.
So not ready for prime time, then?
On the Linux side, the fascists controlling the many distributions are
doing everything they can to blacklist it.
How do you “blacklist” Free software?
On the BSD side, there is hope that people will see merit to using it
over X11.
“Hope” from whom? From people who aren’t actually doing any work?
On 2025-08-25, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
On 2025-08-24 11:46 a.m., Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Le 24-08-2025, Lester Thorpe <lt@gnu.rocks> a écrit :
On 24 Aug 2025 13:04:53 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:Try to understand the difference:
Same mistake, same answer: Linux doesn't need any graphical tool to run. >>>>> X11 and wayland are provided by the distros, they are not required by >>>>> Linux.
Unless all one does, like you, is text file editing a GUI is essential. >>>
- I need GUI
- Linux needs GUI
The first is right, not the second.
A GUI is essential but that GUI should be X11 and not Wayland.
As I said: nobody wants to take care of X11 anymore. It's dead. One guy
tried to make it evolve but he has been thrown away by literally
everyone involved in X11. You still can use it if you want but it wont
improve anymore. Of course X11 being open source you could improve it,
but you would need to learn how to program first.
So X11 is dead and Wayland is the only available alternative. You can
create a third better alternative, but it would be way more difficult
for you than to help X11.
If freedesktop.org and Qt remove X11 support from their toolkits
then Linux will become pure shit.
What do you believe? That X11 will strive under BSD when it's dead under >>> Linux?
I believe that the BSD people aren't as hostile to X11 as the Linux
people are. The belief there is likely that there is no reason to
replace something that isn't broken. If there are problems with it, they
can migrate over to something like XLibre. Wayland, to many, just isn't
a proper solution.
Granted, I prefer Wayland, but only because it supports browser gestures.
I'll probably use Xorg as long as it's available. I'm not that impressed
with Wayland's progress. It seems like it's taken them a long, long time to get (what appear to be) simple issues solved. Besides, Xorg just seems to work for me.
You're also a user of Cinnamon which has yet to be fully migrated over
to Wayland anyway. You can experiment with it, but it's mostly a mess.
You're much better off with X11 if that is your choice of desktop environment. Under Gnome or KDE, the Wayland experience is a lot more satisfying.
As Linux turns to shit with the incursion of junk like systemd,
wayland, and who knows what else the future will bring, it's
good to start considering some alternatives.
Of course there is FreeBSD.
There is also OpenIndiana:
https://www.openindiana.org/
Are there any others?
Linux will turn to shit. It's only a matter of time.
Some group will likely fork it, but I hope that happens
before the damage has gone too far.
Also tried BSD, but hit a roadblock with magnetic tapes - the status
bits are different, and couldn't figure out a workaround.
On 2025-08-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
On 2025-08-26 3:31 a.m., RonB wrote:
On 2025-08-25, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
On 2025-08-24 11:46 a.m., Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:I'll probably use Xorg as long as it's available. I'm not that impressed >>> with Wayland's progress. It seems like it's taken them a long, long time to >>> get (what appear to be) simple issues solved. Besides, Xorg just seems to >>> work for me.
Le 24-08-2025, Lester Thorpe <lt@gnu.rocks> a écrit :
On 24 Aug 2025 13:04:53 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:Try to understand the difference:
Same mistake, same answer: Linux doesn't need any graphical tool to run.
X11 and wayland are provided by the distros, they are not required by >>>>>>> Linux.
Unless all one does, like you, is text file editing a GUI is essential. >>>>>
- I need GUI
- Linux needs GUI
The first is right, not the second.
A GUI is essential but that GUI should be X11 and not Wayland.
As I said: nobody wants to take care of X11 anymore. It's dead. One guy >>>>> tried to make it evolve but he has been thrown away by literally
everyone involved in X11. You still can use it if you want but it wont >>>>> improve anymore. Of course X11 being open source you could improve it, >>>>> but you would need to learn how to program first.
So X11 is dead and Wayland is the only available alternative. You can >>>>> create a third better alternative, but it would be way more difficult >>>>> for you than to help X11.
If freedesktop.org and Qt remove X11 support from their toolkits
then Linux will become pure shit.
What do you believe? That X11 will strive under BSD when it's dead under >>>>> Linux?
I believe that the BSD people aren't as hostile to X11 as the Linux
people are. The belief there is likely that there is no reason to
replace something that isn't broken. If there are problems with it, they >>>> can migrate over to something like XLibre. Wayland, to many, just isn't >>>> a proper solution.
Granted, I prefer Wayland, but only because it supports browser gestures. >>>
You're also a user of Cinnamon which has yet to be fully migrated over
to Wayland anyway. You can experiment with it, but it's mostly a mess.
You're much better off with X11 if that is your choice of desktop
environment. Under Gnome or KDE, the Wayland experience is a lot more
satisfying.
"More satisfying." Is that based soley on the gestures thing? Because gestures don't mean anything to me. And I do have AnduinOS installed, which is based on Wayland. I don't think it does my em and en dashes (— –), but I
may be wrong. (I'll have to check that out.)
Honestly, the satisfaction factor for me is indeed entirely based on the gestures thing. It is also a little bit better when it comes to
switching displays (duplicate, extend and the like), but X11 isn't
exactly poor in this respect either.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:42:22 +0800, Woozy Song wrote:
Also tried BSD, but hit a roadblock with magnetic tapes - the status
bits are different, and couldn't figure out a workaround.
Maybe you tried the wrong BSD.
On 2025-08-25 9:49 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
So not ready for prime time, then?
Actually, the project is forked so I imagine that most of it is
functional. As it is, it is simply a bug-fixed version of the X11
project. Nevertheless, other applications that call on X might not work
as expected.
On the Linux side, the fascists controlling the many distributions are
doing everything they can to blacklist it.
How do you “blacklist” Free software?
You tell me:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 09:46:03 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-08-25 9:49 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
So not ready for prime time, then?
Actually, the project is forked so I imagine that most of it is
functional. As it is, it is simply a bug-fixed version of the X11
project. Nevertheless, other applications that call on X might not work
as expected.
I thought it was supposed to be a seamless replacement for the existing
Xorg. What are they changing to break backward compatibility?
On the Linux side, the fascists controlling the many distributions are >>>> doing everything they can to blacklist it.
How do you “blacklist” Free software?
You tell me:
No, you were the one who claimed such a concept existed. *You* tell *us*.
On 24 Aug 2025 13:04:53 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Of course there is FreeBSD.
Of couse there is. It's useless for a real user environment, but it's
good for a server.
I’m not sure it is the best for a server any more. For one thing, Linux offers a much superior network stack, plus also containerization as a lighter-weight alternative to full virtualization, that kind of thing.
On 2025-08-28 12:28 a.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
I thought it was supposed to be a seamless replacement for the existing
Xorg. What are they changing to break backward compatibility?
I don't know because I haven't looked into it. It's a complaint made by people on Reddit who reject XLibre altogether. I took them at their
word, but I am quite aware of how often Linux zealots lie, especially
the homosexual allies.
XLibre is available as a fork for anyone who wants to continue using
X but wants it to get updates and fixes. Distributions who pride
themselves on giving the user choice decided not only that they
wouldn't carry the project, but the X11 project prohibited the
developer who started the project from working on it.
Additionally, as a result of Biden's executive order against rogue
nations having access to American software, Russian developers and their contributions were blacklisted from Linux.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 08:49:50 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-08-28 12:28 a.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
I thought it was supposed to be a seamless replacement for the existing
Xorg. What are they changing to break backward compatibility?
I don't know because I haven't looked into it. It's a complaint made by
people on Reddit who reject XLibre altogether. I took them at their
word, but I am quite aware of how often Linux zealots lie, especially
the homosexual allies.
You accuse them of lying, yet you can’t be bothered to verify the facts
for yourself. You think the facts will lie to you as well? You think maybe the Universe itself is gay, and you’re afraid to find out?
XLibre is available as a fork for anyone who wants to continue using
X but wants it to get updates and fixes. Distributions who pride
themselves on giving the user choice decided not only that they
wouldn't carry the project, but the X11 project prohibited the
developer who started the project from working on it.
It’s not possible to “prohibit” anyone from working on their own fork of
Free software. That’s what “Free as in freedom” means.
If distros don’t to use that code, it would be purely from reasons of
(lack of) quality.
All you have to do, to prove otherwise, is to show us yourself
successfully using the code in question.
Additionally, as a result of Biden's executive order against rogue
nations having access to American software, Russian developers and their
contributions were blacklisted from Linux.
I checked into that. Note these were actually Europe-wide sanctions -- the USA couldn’t have forced this on its own.
Also, the code previously contributed from those developers remains in
place.
This doesn’t stop the Russians from creating their own fork of the Linux kernel.
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