• [video] ATARI ST at CES'85

    From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 7 22:00:01 2025
    Hi,

    Here is a video presentation of the ATARI ST at Las Vegas CES 1985:

    *Atari ST Launch & First Public Demo* - *Winter CES 1985*
    At the Rees channel 2022/01/07 LAS VEGAS

    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcK4kCuYthA>

    Atari 130ST and 520ST first public demo from the Winter Consumer
    Electronics Show 1985, hosted in Las Vegas in January 1985.

    In it the unknown announcer discusses the ST's TOS operating system and
    its desktop - GEM - including its original CP/M-68K underpinnings, which
    of course were replaced with GEMDOS shortly before release. There are a
    few interesting differences between the version demoed here and the
    final release, including the desktop icons which had to be changed due
    to a lawsuit from Apple.

    This video seems to have vanished from YouTube so I decided to upload
    this segment for preservation.

    This was 40 years ago, because the Las Vegas CES begins these days =)

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

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  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Francois LE COAT on Tue Jan 7 22:11:28 2025
    I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!

    Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of
    resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ: Real Atari ST BBS! www.sfhqbbs.org (21:3/171.0)
  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Darklord on Sun Jan 12 15:30:06 2025
    Hi,

    Darklord writes:
    I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!

    Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)

    I had an ATARI 1040STf in 1986, with a NEC printer and a monochrome
    display. Then I had a MegaSTe 4 in 1991. And a Falcon030+882 in 1993,
    with a multisync EZIO display. Then in June 1996 I had an ATARI clone
    called Hades060 from Medusa Computer Systems. It was the first TT clone
    bought from France, and maybe bought in the world, I suspect.

    So I'm really fond of ATARI computers, and enjoy celebrating 40th
    anniversary of presentation, at date of Las Vegas CES in January 1985.

    It would really be great if ATARI remembered its ATARI ST computer
    users, like me, specially because I'm an ATARI developer, and that
    I like sharing my GEM software, as widely as it used to be from 1986
    to 1996, and later than this decade, with the worldwide internet.

    Maybe the ATARI firm has projects around this quarantine? It's there!

    Best regards,

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeler) https://eureka.atari.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Ridd@21:1/5 to Darklord on Sat Jan 25 10:28:28 2025
    On 07/01/2025 09:11, Darklord wrote:
    I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!

    Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)

    It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png

    --
    Chris

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  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Sun Feb 9 16:10:36 2025
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Darklord wrote:
    I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!

    Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of
    resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness.  :)

    It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png

    The Graphic Environment Manager (GEM) from Digital Research existed both
    for ATARI ST and IBM/PC (or AmstradPC, or whateverPC) written mainly in
    "C" language, portable, and almost free software now. It could be ported
    on the ATARI VCS (a computer from ATARI S.A.!) so that ported ATARI 68k software (written in "C", cross-compiled, like mine) could run with it, eventually with the usage of a virtual machine in a first period, like
    ARAnyM. That's how Apple have done with the Mac, transitioning 68k ->
    PPC -> Intel -> ARM. Transitioning from Apple, was simple to users and developers, ask them! I've lived it using all different Apple computers.

    That could be the rebirth of ATARI computers, forty years after ST =)
    I'm not kidding! Do you know GEM, ATARI VCS, "C" language, ARAnyM, Mac?

    I hope that it makes sense...

    Best regards,

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

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  • From Chris Ridd@21:1/5 to Francois LE COAT on Tue Feb 11 20:57:41 2025
    On 09/02/2025 15:10, Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Darklord wrote:
    I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!

    Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of
    resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness.  :)

    It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png

    The Graphic Environment Manager (GEM) from Digital Research existed both
    for ATARI ST and IBM/PC (or AmstradPC, or whateverPC) written mainly in
    "C" language, portable, and almost free software now. It could be ported
    on the ATARI VCS (a computer from ATARI S.A.!) so that ported ATARI 68k software (written in "C", cross-compiled, like mine) could run with it, eventually with the usage of a virtual machine in a first period, like ARAnyM. That's how Apple have done with the Mac, transitioning 68k ->
    PPC -> Intel -> ARM. Transitioning from Apple, was simple to users and developers, ask them! I've lived it using all different Apple computers.

    That could be the rebirth of ATARI computers, forty years after ST =)
    I'm not kidding! Do you know GEM, ATARI VCS, "C" language, ARAnyM, Mac?

    Actually I'd be kind of intrigued if someone can build Aranym for iPad.
    The hardware is really pretty powerful and I'm sure SDL supports iOS.
    Think different!

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Tue Feb 11 22:45:36 2025
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!

    Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of
    resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness.  :)

    It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png

    The Graphic Environment Manager (GEM) from Digital Research existed both
    for ATARI ST and IBM/PC (or AmstradPC, or whateverPC) written mainly in
    "C" language, portable, and almost free software now. It could be ported
    on the ATARI VCS (a computer from ATARI S.A.!) so that ported ATARI 68k
    software (written in "C", cross-compiled, like mine) could run with it,
    eventually with the usage of a virtual machine in a first period, like
    ARAnyM. That's how Apple have done with the Mac, transitioning 68k ->
    PPC -> Intel -> ARM. Transitioning from Apple, was simple to users and
    developers, ask them! I've lived it using all different Apple computers.

    That could be the rebirth of ATARI computers, forty years after ST =)
    I'm not kidding! Do you know GEM, ATARI VCS, "C" language, ARAnyM, Mac?

    Actually I'd be kind of intrigued if someone can build Aranym for iPad.
    The hardware is really pretty powerful and I'm sure SDL supports iOS.
    Think different!

    Well, iPad is a tactile mobile device, and not a computer. ARAnyM means
    "ATARI Running on Any Machine", that means on any computer. The ATARI
    virtual machine is not supposed to be supported on the iPad device.

    The ATARI VCS is half a console and a computer, and ARAnyM is supported
    on it. Because ARAnyM runs under GNU/Linux that is ATARI VCS's native OS

    If the ATARI VCS could boot on EmuTOS, that means a x86 version of it,
    that would be a huge step forward. EmuTOS is currently only booting on
    68k computers. But EmuTOS is portable. Do you know it? It's free
    software. ARAnyM virtual machine uses EmuTOS and boot with it.

    That's how Eureka 2.12 runs with ATARI, Amiga, Macintosh and Lisa =)
    If DR/GEM was ported to ATARI VCS natively, that would make sense...
    Eureka 2.12 could run natively with the ATARI VCS computer, 40 years
    after the ATARI ST.

    Regards,

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Ridd@21:1/5 to Francois LE COAT on Wed Feb 12 19:45:55 2025
    On 11/02/2025 21:45, Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!

    Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of >>>>> resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness.  :)

    It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png

    The Graphic Environment Manager (GEM) from Digital Research existed both >>> for ATARI ST and IBM/PC (or AmstradPC, or whateverPC) written mainly in
    "C" language, portable, and almost free software now. It could be ported >>> on the ATARI VCS (a computer from ATARI S.A.!) so that ported ATARI 68k
    software (written in "C", cross-compiled, like mine) could run with it,
    eventually with the usage of a virtual machine in a first period, like
    ARAnyM. That's how Apple have done with the Mac, transitioning 68k ->
    PPC -> Intel -> ARM. Transitioning from Apple, was simple to users and
    developers, ask them! I've lived it using all different Apple computers. >>>
    That could be the rebirth of ATARI computers, forty years after ST =)
    I'm not kidding! Do you know GEM, ATARI VCS, "C" language, ARAnyM, Mac?

    Actually I'd be kind of intrigued if someone can build Aranym for
    iPad. The hardware is really pretty powerful and I'm sure SDL supports
    iOS. Think different!

    Well, iPad is a tactile mobile device, and not a computer. ARAnyM means "ATARI Running on Any Machine", that means on any computer. The ATARI
    virtual machine is not supposed to be supported on the iPad device.

    Well I disagree. An iPad is just a machine, and I don't see anywhere in
    the Aranym docs restricting what hardware it is "supposed" to run on. In
    fact on https://aranym.github.io it explicitly says "any kind of hardware".

    The mouse emulation would be an interesting challenge, though of course
    iPads do support pointing devices nowadays.

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Wed Feb 12 21:30:37 2025
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff! >>>>>>
    Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of >>>>>> resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness.  :)

    It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png

    The Graphic Environment Manager (GEM) from Digital Research existed
    both
    for ATARI ST and IBM/PC (or AmstradPC, or whateverPC) written mainly in >>>> "C" language, portable, and almost free software now. It could be
    ported
    on the ATARI VCS (a computer from ATARI S.A.!) so that ported ATARI 68k >>>> software (written in "C", cross-compiled, like mine) could run with it, >>>> eventually with the usage of a virtual machine in a first period, like >>>> ARAnyM. That's how Apple have done with the Mac, transitioning 68k ->
    PPC -> Intel -> ARM. Transitioning from Apple, was simple to users and >>>> developers, ask them! I've lived it using all different Apple
    computers.

    That could be the rebirth of ATARI computers, forty years after ST =)
    I'm not kidding! Do you know GEM, ATARI VCS, "C" language, ARAnyM, Mac? >>>
    Actually I'd be kind of intrigued if someone can build Aranym for
    iPad. The hardware is really pretty powerful and I'm sure SDL
    supports iOS. Think different!

    Well, iPad is a tactile mobile device, and not a computer. ARAnyM means
    "ATARI Running on Any Machine", that means on any computer. The ATARI
    virtual machine is not supposed to be supported on the iPad device.

    Well I disagree. An iPad is just a machine, and I don't see anywhere in
    the Aranym docs restricting what hardware it is "supposed" to run on. In fact on https://aranym.github.io it explicitly says "any kind of hardware".

    The mouse emulation would be an interesting challenge, though of course iPads do support pointing devices nowadays.

    Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
    developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
    hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before
    thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!

    There's numerous developers for the Hatari emulator, but a very few
    for the ARAnyM virtual machine. That's a real misery, and I'm the
    only one testing macOS versions, because all developers have gone :-(
    If you want to help ARAnyM devels, then you're welcome. But I think
    that iOS or iPad OS support is totally out of question for the moment.

    If all computers were correctly supported, we could then think about
    mobile devices. But it is not at all, in the sensitive subjects for now.

    You're dreaming. But the reality is sad. We talk here about computers.

    Regards,

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Ridd@21:1/5 to Francois LE COAT on Thu Feb 13 08:33:39 2025
    On 12/02/2025 20:30, Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
    developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
    hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before
    thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!

    Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one developer
    for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't upstream his
    changes :-(

    Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a while
    ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I do run it
    on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer buildable on any
    modern Mac/Xcode.

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Thu Feb 13 18:30:10 2025
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
    developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
    hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before
    thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!

    Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one developer
    for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't upstream his
    changes :-(

    Well the mess is not from developers, but from GitHub that is a
    Microsoft technology. I don't understand anything to GitHub, that
    is rather intended to Windows developers exclusively, I suspect.

    Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a while
    ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I do run it
    on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer buildable on any
    modern Mac/Xcode.

    That's what we're talking. For instance for the Hatari projects, there's releases, and developments. But for ARAnyM it's not the case, at all.
    If there was a favorite developments platform, like the ATARI VCS, that
    would make things easier. x86 ARAnyM target is the most accomplished,
    for Windows, macOS and GNU/Linux. For ARM all is rather experimental.
    Among GitHub, all CPU targets, the situation for devels is inextricable. Specially for old software like ARAnyM, that is in delicate situation.
    It seems to me that peoples are discouraged with the GitHub complexity.

    Regards,

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Ridd@21:1/5 to Francois LE COAT on Fri Feb 14 08:25:51 2025
    On 13/02/2025 17:30, Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
    developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
    hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before
    thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!

    Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one
    developer for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't
    upstream his changes :-(

    Well the mess is not from developers, but from GitHub that is a
    Microsoft technology. I don't understand anything to GitHub, that
    is rather intended to Windows developers exclusively, I suspect.

    I'm not sure. I don't perceive a Windows bias in Github, after all it
    was used for open source projects for a very long time before Microsoft
    bought GitHub.

    Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a while
    ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I do run
    it on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer buildable on
    any modern Mac/Xcode.

    That's what we're talking. For instance for the Hatari projects, there's releases, and developments. But for ARAnyM it's not the case, at all.
    If there was a favorite developments platform, like the ATARI VCS, that
    would make things easier. x86 ARAnyM target is the most accomplished,
    for Windows, macOS and GNU/Linux. For ARM all is rather experimental.
    Among GitHub, all CPU targets, the situation for devels is inextricable. Specially for old software like ARAnyM, that is in delicate situation.
    It seems to me that peoples are discouraged with the GitHub complexity.

    Perhaps, but honestly it just looks like git to me with their own style
    of pull requests. Nothing outrageously different here. Do you have any
    concrete examples of "the situation for devels is inextricable"
    especially regarding GitHub?

    I think a Mac specific problem in Aranym is the use of SDL. That's a
    good library but mostly intended for games, and the story of gaming on
    the Mac has never been great. Contrast with gaming on iOS, and I wonder
    if the iOS version of SDL is more mature. For sure the Mac version of
    SDL is (even in SDL3!) using some private AppKit APIs internally which
    does not seem wise.

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Sat Feb 15 10:30:11 2025
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
    developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
    hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before
    thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!

    Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one
    developer for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't
    upstream his changes :-(

    Well the mess is not from developers, but from GitHub that is a
    Microsoft technology. I don't understand anything to GitHub, that
    is rather intended to Windows developers exclusively, I suspect.

    I'm not sure. I don't perceive a Windows bias in Github, after all it
    was used for open source projects for a very long time before Microsoft bought GitHub.

    Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a while
    ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I do run
    it on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer buildable on
    any modern Mac/Xcode.

    That's what we're talking. For instance for the Hatari projects, there's
    releases, and developments. But for ARAnyM it's not the case, at all.
    If there was a favorite developments platform, like the ATARI VCS, that
    would make things easier. x86 ARAnyM target is the most accomplished,
    for Windows, macOS and GNU/Linux. For ARM all is rather experimental.
    Among GitHub, all CPU targets, the situation for devels is inextricable.
    Specially for old software like ARAnyM, that is in delicate situation.
    It seems to me that peoples are discouraged with the GitHub complexity.

    Perhaps, but honestly it just looks like git to me with their own style
    of pull requests. Nothing outrageously different here. Do you have any concrete examples of "the situation for devels is inextricable"
    especially regarding GitHub?

    Yes. Will I have to pay developers to obtain macOS or Windows binaries?
    I remind you that we're speaking of *free software* hosted on GitHub.
    All would be simpler, if the prioritized devel platform was ATARI VCS!

    Regards,

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Ridd@21:1/5 to Francois LE COAT on Sun Feb 16 12:50:38 2025
    On 15/02/2025 09:30, Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
    developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
    hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before >>>>> thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!

    Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one
    developer for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't
    upstream his changes :-(

    Well the mess is not from developers, but from GitHub that is a
    Microsoft technology. I don't understand anything to GitHub, that
    is rather intended to Windows developers exclusively, I suspect.

    I'm not sure. I don't perceive a Windows bias in Github, after all it
    was used for open source projects for a very long time before
    Microsoft bought GitHub.

    Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a while
    ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I do run
    it on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer buildable
    on any modern Mac/Xcode.

    That's what we're talking. For instance for the Hatari projects, there's >>> releases, and developments. But for ARAnyM it's not the case, at all.
    If there was a favorite developments platform, like the ATARI VCS, that
    would make things easier. x86 ARAnyM target is the most accomplished,
    for Windows, macOS and GNU/Linux. For ARM all is rather experimental.
    Among GitHub, all CPU targets, the situation for devels is inextricable. >>> Specially for old software like ARAnyM, that is in delicate situation.
    It seems to me that peoples are discouraged with the GitHub complexity.

    Perhaps, but honestly it just looks like git to me with their own
    style of pull requests. Nothing outrageously different here. Do you
    have any concrete examples of "the situation for devels is
    inextricable" especially regarding GitHub?

    Yes. Will I have to pay developers to obtain macOS or Windows binaries?

    I can't speak for Windows. But for Macs there are a few scenarios for developers:

    * do nothing: the app cannot be notarised by Apple and users will get
    warned the app is untrusted. There's an extra step in System Settings
    that the user has to take to allow it. This is not difficult, but it
    needs documenting. It only affects the first run.

    * pay for an individual Apple Developer Program membership ($99 per
    annum): this lets the developer submit it to Apple for notarisation, and
    users will no longer get a warning.

    * figure out how to get a waiver for that program membership for the
    Aranym *team* ($0 but there is some overhead as you have to be an
    official (and US?) non-profit organisation): this lets the team submit
    it to Apple for notarisation, and users will no longer get a warning.

    Developers can notarise as many times per year as they want, so you'd
    want to do this in an automated way for every build. I think Philipp's
    done this, possibly with an individual membership.

    Apple's notarisation system is meant to scan your code for "malicious
    content". Obviously you can choose to believe they really just want to
    screw developers out of $99 every year.

    I assume (but have no evidence) that the waiver option is aimed at open
    source projects. It would be interesting to find out what other open
    source projects actually do.

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Sun Feb 16 17:00:04 2025
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
    developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is >>>>>> hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before >>>>>> thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS! >>>>>
    Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one
    developer for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't
    upstream his changes :-(

    Well the mess is not from developers, but from GitHub that is a
    Microsoft technology. I don't understand anything to GitHub, that
    is rather intended to Windows developers exclusively, I suspect.

    I'm not sure. I don't perceive a Windows bias in Github, after all it
    was used for open source projects for a very long time before
    Microsoft bought GitHub.

    Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a
    while ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I >>>>> do run it on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer
    buildable on any modern Mac/Xcode.

    That's what we're talking. For instance for the Hatari projects,
    there's
    releases, and developments. But for ARAnyM it's not the case, at all.
    If there was a favorite developments platform, like the ATARI VCS, that >>>> would make things easier. x86 ARAnyM target is the most accomplished,
    for Windows, macOS and GNU/Linux. For ARM all is rather experimental.
    Among GitHub, all CPU targets, the situation for devels is
    inextricable.
    Specially for old software like ARAnyM, that is in delicate situation. >>>> It seems to me that peoples are discouraged with the GitHub complexity. >>>
    Perhaps, but honestly it just looks like git to me with their own
    style of pull requests. Nothing outrageously different here. Do you
    have any concrete examples of "the situation for devels is
    inextricable" especially regarding GitHub?

    Yes. Will I have to pay developers to obtain macOS or Windows binaries?

    I can't speak for Windows. But for Macs there are a few scenarios for developers:

    * do nothing: the app cannot be notarised by Apple and users will get
    warned the app is untrusted. There's an extra step in System Settings
    that the user has to take to allow it. This is not difficult, but it
    needs documenting. It only affects the first run.

    * pay for an individual Apple Developer Program membership ($99 per
    annum): this lets the developer submit it to Apple for notarisation, and users will no longer get a warning.

    * figure out how to get a waiver for that program membership for the
    Aranym *team* ($0 but there is some overhead as you have to be an
    official (and US?) non-profit organisation): this lets the team submit
    it to Apple for notarisation, and users will no longer get a warning.

    Developers can notarise as many times per year as they want, so you'd
    want to do this in an automated way for every build. I think Philipp's
    done this, possibly with an individual membership.

    Apple's notarisation system is meant to scan your code for "malicious content". Obviously you can choose to believe they really just want to
    screw developers out of $99 every year.

    I assume (but have no evidence) that the waiver option is aimed at open source projects. It would be interesting to find out what other open
    source projects actually do.

    In the current situation I have a lot of difficulties with the binaries.
    Can you test *ARAnyM miniPack* <https://eureka.atari.org/miniPack.zip>
    I hope that it runs correctly, but I'm not sure at all. Because the
    binary was downloaded on GitHub, and there's issues with signature...

    Thanks,

    Regards,

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Ridd@21:1/5 to Francois LE COAT on Sun Feb 16 19:43:33 2025
    On 16/02/2025 16:00, Francois LE COAT wrote:
    In the current situation I have a lot of difficulties with the binaries.
    Can you test *ARAnyM miniPack* <https://eureka.atari.org/miniPack.zip>
    I hope that it runs correctly, but I'm not sure at all. Because the
    binary was downloaded on GitHub, and there's issues with signature...

    It fails to open because it isn't notarised. The alert looks like:

    "MacAranym" Not Opened

    Apple could not verify "MacAranym" is free of malware that may harm your
    Mac or compromise your privacy.

    [Done] [Move to Bin]

    If you hit Done, you can go to System Settings > Privacy and Security >
    it has a button at the bottom letting you "Open Anyway".

    It looks like it is signed OK, but the notarisation hasn't been attached ("stapled" in codesign terminology) to the app. Here's the output of
    codesign against MacAranym.app and Sigil.app (which is a correctly
    notarised and opensource app)

    $ codesign -dvvv MacAranym.app
    Executable=/Users/cjr/Downloads/miniPack 2/MacAranym.app/Contents/MacOS/MacAranym
    Identifier=org.aranym.MacAranym.aranym
    Format=app bundle with Mach-O universal (x86_64 arm64)
    CodeDirectory v=20500 size=29383 flags=0x10000(runtime) hashes=907+7 location=embedded
    Hash type=sha256 size=32
    CandidateCDHash sha256=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de240 CandidateCDHashFull sha256=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de2409cf06649a29bac2c662a8717
    Hash choices=sha256 CMSDigest=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de2409cf06649a29bac2c662a8717 CMSDigestType=2
    CDHash=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de240
    Signature size=8977
    Authority=Developer ID Application: Philipp Donze (P8CC95REUG) Authority=Developer ID Certification Authority
    Authority=Apple Root CA
    Timestamp=17 Jan 2025 at 22:40:46
    Info.plist entries=27
    TeamIdentifier=P8CC95REUG
    Runtime Version=14.5.0
    Sealed Resources version=2 rules=13 files=7
    Internal requirements count=1 size=220

    $ codesign -dvvv /Applications/Sigil.app Executable=/Applications/Sigil.app/Contents/MacOS/Sigil Identifier=com.sigil-ebook.Sigil.app
    Format=app bundle with Mach-O thin (arm64)
    CodeDirectory v=20500 size=67717 flags=0x10000(runtime) hashes=2105+7 location=embedded
    Hash type=sha256 size=32
    CandidateCDHash sha256=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2 CandidateCDHashFull sha256=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2bc4c59b3a8a466575f913717
    Hash choices=sha256 CMSDigest=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2bc4c59b3a8a466575f913717 CMSDigestType=2
    CDHash=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2
    Signature size=8979
    Authority=Developer ID Application: Kevin Hendricks (2SMCVQU3CJ) Authority=Developer ID Certification Authority
    Authority=Apple Root CA
    Timestamp=31 Jan 2025 at 16:00:58
    Notarization Ticket=stapled
    Info.plist entries=17
    TeamIdentifier=2SMCVQU3CJ
    Runtime Version=14.5.0
    Sealed Resources version=2 rules=13 files=374
    Internal requirements count=1 size=188


    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Sun Feb 16 21:30:53 2025
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    In the current situation I have a lot of difficulties with the binaries.
    Can you test *ARAnyM miniPack* <https://eureka.atari.org/miniPack.zip>
    I hope that it runs correctly, but I'm not sure at all. Because the
    binary was downloaded on GitHub, and there's issues with signature...

    It fails to open because it isn't notarised. The alert looks like:

    "MacAranym" Not Opened

    Apple could not verify "MacAranym" is free of malware that may harm your
    Mac or compromise your privacy.

    [Done] [Move to Bin]

    If you hit Done, you can go to System Settings > Privacy and Security >
    it has a button at the bottom letting you "Open Anyway".

    It looks like it is signed OK, but the notarisation hasn't been attached ("stapled" in codesign terminology) to the app. Here's the output of codesign against MacAranym.app and Sigil.app (which is a correctly
    notarised and opensource app)

    $ codesign -dvvv MacAranym.app
    Executable=/Users/cjr/Downloads/miniPack 2/MacAranym.app/Contents/MacOS/MacAranym Identifier=org.aranym.MacAranym.aranym
    Format=app bundle with Mach-O universal (x86_64 arm64)
    CodeDirectory v=20500 size=29383 flags=0x10000(runtime) hashes=907+7 location=embedded
    Hash type=sha256 size=32
    CandidateCDHash sha256=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de240 CandidateCDHashFull sha256=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de2409cf06649a29bac2c662a8717
    Hash choices=sha256 CMSDigest=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de2409cf06649a29bac2c662a8717 CMSDigestType=2
    CDHash=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de240
    Signature size=8977
    Authority=Developer ID Application: Philipp Donze (P8CC95REUG) Authority=Developer ID Certification Authority
    Authority=Apple Root CA
    Timestamp=17 Jan 2025 at 22:40:46
    Info.plist entries=27
    TeamIdentifier=P8CC95REUG
    Runtime Version=14.5.0
    Sealed Resources version=2 rules=13 files=7
    Internal requirements count=1 size=220

    $ codesign -dvvv /Applications/Sigil.app Executable=/Applications/Sigil.app/Contents/MacOS/Sigil Identifier=com.sigil-ebook.Sigil.app
    Format=app bundle with Mach-O thin (arm64)
    CodeDirectory v=20500 size=67717 flags=0x10000(runtime) hashes=2105+7 location=embedded
    Hash type=sha256 size=32
    CandidateCDHash sha256=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2 CandidateCDHashFull sha256=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2bc4c59b3a8a466575f913717
    Hash choices=sha256 CMSDigest=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2bc4c59b3a8a466575f913717 CMSDigestType=2
    CDHash=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2
    Signature size=8979
    Authority=Developer ID Application: Kevin Hendricks (2SMCVQU3CJ) Authority=Developer ID Certification Authority
    Authority=Apple Root CA
    Timestamp=31 Jan 2025 at 16:00:58
    Notarization Ticket=stapled
    Info.plist entries=17
    TeamIdentifier=2SMCVQU3CJ
    Runtime Version=14.5.0
    Sealed Resources version=2 rules=13 files=374
    Internal requirements count=1 size=188

    Well, GitHub is a Microsoft technology. They're not inclusive, nor
    friendly with other hardware/software, noticeably with Apple... And
    I'm not speaking about free software or ATARI computers, indeed!

    Regards,

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Francois LE COAT on Sun Feb 23 17:30:02 2025
    Hi,

    Francois LE COAT writes:
    If DR/GEM was ported to ATARI VCS natively, that would make sense...
    Eureka 2.12 could run natively with the ATARI VCS computer, 40 years
    after the ATARI ST.

    Here you can watch at Eureka 2.12 running under GNU/Linux Mageia...

    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmzPWw1xxc0>

    ...40 years after ATARI ST. It's hosted with the ATARI (virtual) machine
    Well Eureka 2.12 is not running natively, but performances are stunning!
    And the machine could be ATARI VCS, if it was shipped outside the USA.

    We're not speaking about an unattainable goal =)

    Regards,

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Francois LE COAT@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Wed Mar 5 18:30:01 2025
    Hi,

    Chris Ridd writes:
    Francois LE COAT wrote:
    In the current situation I have a lot of difficulties with the binaries.
    Can you test *ARAnyM miniPack* <https://eureka.atari.org/miniPack.zip>
    I hope that it runs correctly, but I'm not sure at all. Because the
    binary was downloaded on GitHub, and there's issues with signature...

    It fails to open because it isn't notarised. The alert looks like:

    "MacAranym" Not Opened

    Apple could not verify "MacAranym" is free of malware that may harm your
    Mac or compromise your privacy.

    [Done] [Move to Bin]

    If you hit Done, you can go to System Settings > Privacy and Security >
    it has a button at the bottom letting you "Open Anyway".

    It looks like it is signed OK, but the notarisation hasn't been attached ("stapled" in codesign terminology) to the app. Here's the output of codesign against MacAranym.app and Sigil.app (which is a correctly
    notarised and opensource app)

    ...

    Here is an example of plotting curves on a semi-logarithmic scale
    with the GEM Eureka 2.12 software. Screen recording is performed
    under macOS Catalina, with the GNU/GPL ATARI virtual machine: ARAnyM.

    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLfom-aOm0>

    This includes obtaining ARAnyM miniPack and Eureka 2.12, and making
    a demo under macOS...

    The GNU/GPL ATARI virtual machine runs with Apple Silicon Mac =)

    --
    François LE COAT
    Author of Eureka 2.12 (2D Graph Describer, 3D Modeller) https://eureka.atari.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Chris Ridd on Wed Feb 5 15:25:42 2025
    "It looks quite like..."

    Nice. :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ: Real Atari ST BBS! www.sfhqbbs.org (21:3/171.0)
  • From Bikerbob@21:3/171 to Chris Ridd on Thu Feb 6 09:41:58 2025
    Even though an arguement... or discussion. Its great to see this many
    posts on the usenet. I am pretty sure these last 20 is more posting than
    this group gets in a year!! :) Was great reading. No opinion though.
    Other than real hardware I use Hatari and sometimes a Mister to play some games. Thats it.

    Bikerbob

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ: Real Atari ST BBS! www.sfhqbbs.org (21:3/171.0)