I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!
Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)
I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!
Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)
Darklord wrote:
I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!
Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of
resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)
It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png
Hi,
Chris Ridd writes:
Darklord wrote:
I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!
Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of
resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)
It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png
The Graphic Environment Manager (GEM) from Digital Research existed both
for ATARI ST and IBM/PC (or AmstradPC, or whateverPC) written mainly in
"C" language, portable, and almost free software now. It could be ported
on the ATARI VCS (a computer from ATARI S.A.!) so that ported ATARI 68k software (written in "C", cross-compiled, like mine) could run with it, eventually with the usage of a virtual machine in a first period, like ARAnyM. That's how Apple have done with the Mac, transitioning 68k ->
PPC -> Intel -> ARM. Transitioning from Apple, was simple to users and developers, ask them! I've lived it using all different Apple computers.
That could be the rebirth of ATARI computers, forty years after ST =)
I'm not kidding! Do you know GEM, ATARI VCS, "C" language, ARAnyM, Mac?
Francois LE COAT wrote:
I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!
Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of
resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)
It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png
The Graphic Environment Manager (GEM) from Digital Research existed both
for ATARI ST and IBM/PC (or AmstradPC, or whateverPC) written mainly in
"C" language, portable, and almost free software now. It could be ported
on the ATARI VCS (a computer from ATARI S.A.!) so that ported ATARI 68k
software (written in "C", cross-compiled, like mine) could run with it,
eventually with the usage of a virtual machine in a first period, like
ARAnyM. That's how Apple have done with the Mac, transitioning 68k ->
PPC -> Intel -> ARM. Transitioning from Apple, was simple to users and
developers, ask them! I've lived it using all different Apple computers.
That could be the rebirth of ATARI computers, forty years after ST =)
I'm not kidding! Do you know GEM, ATARI VCS, "C" language, ARAnyM, Mac?
Actually I'd be kind of intrigued if someone can build Aranym for iPad.
The hardware is really pretty powerful and I'm sure SDL supports iOS.
Think different!
Hi,
Chris Ridd writes:
Francois LE COAT wrote:
I watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff!
Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of >>>>> resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)
It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png
The Graphic Environment Manager (GEM) from Digital Research existed both >>> for ATARI ST and IBM/PC (or AmstradPC, or whateverPC) written mainly in
"C" language, portable, and almost free software now. It could be ported >>> on the ATARI VCS (a computer from ATARI S.A.!) so that ported ATARI 68k
software (written in "C", cross-compiled, like mine) could run with it,
eventually with the usage of a virtual machine in a first period, like
ARAnyM. That's how Apple have done with the Mac, transitioning 68k ->
PPC -> Intel -> ARM. Transitioning from Apple, was simple to users and
developers, ask them! I've lived it using all different Apple computers. >>>
That could be the rebirth of ATARI computers, forty years after ST =)
I'm not kidding! Do you know GEM, ATARI VCS, "C" language, ARAnyM, Mac?
Actually I'd be kind of intrigued if someone can build Aranym for
iPad. The hardware is really pretty powerful and I'm sure SDL supports
iOS. Think different!
Well, iPad is a tactile mobile device, and not a computer. ARAnyM means "ATARI Running on Any Machine", that means on any computer. The ATARI
virtual machine is not supposed to be supported on the iPad device.
Francois LE COAT wrote:
Actually I'd be kind of intrigued if someone can build Aranym forI watched this from a link on Facebook - pretty interesting stuff! >>>>>>
Loved the way that TOS desktop was using DRI GEM PC icons and sort of >>>>>> resembled a Mac (Lisa?). Coolness. :)
It looks quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
GEM_(desktop_environment)#/media/File:Gem_11_Desktop.png
The Graphic Environment Manager (GEM) from Digital Research existed
both
for ATARI ST and IBM/PC (or AmstradPC, or whateverPC) written mainly in >>>> "C" language, portable, and almost free software now. It could be
ported
on the ATARI VCS (a computer from ATARI S.A.!) so that ported ATARI 68k >>>> software (written in "C", cross-compiled, like mine) could run with it, >>>> eventually with the usage of a virtual machine in a first period, like >>>> ARAnyM. That's how Apple have done with the Mac, transitioning 68k ->
PPC -> Intel -> ARM. Transitioning from Apple, was simple to users and >>>> developers, ask them! I've lived it using all different Apple
computers.
That could be the rebirth of ATARI computers, forty years after ST =)
I'm not kidding! Do you know GEM, ATARI VCS, "C" language, ARAnyM, Mac? >>>
iPad. The hardware is really pretty powerful and I'm sure SDL
supports iOS. Think different!
Well, iPad is a tactile mobile device, and not a computer. ARAnyM means
"ATARI Running on Any Machine", that means on any computer. The ATARI
virtual machine is not supposed to be supported on the iPad device.
Well I disagree. An iPad is just a machine, and I don't see anywhere in
the Aranym docs restricting what hardware it is "supposed" to run on. In fact on https://aranym.github.io it explicitly says "any kind of hardware".
The mouse emulation would be an interesting challenge, though of course iPads do support pointing devices nowadays.
Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before
thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!
Francois LE COAT wrote:
Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before
thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!
Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one developer
for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't upstream his
changes :-(
Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a while
ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I do run it
on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer buildable on any
modern Mac/Xcode.
Hi,
Chris Ridd writes:
Francois LE COAT wrote:
Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before
thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!
Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one
developer for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't
upstream his changes :-(
Well the mess is not from developers, but from GitHub that is a
Microsoft technology. I don't understand anything to GitHub, that
is rather intended to Windows developers exclusively, I suspect.
Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a while
ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I do run
it on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer buildable on
any modern Mac/Xcode.
That's what we're talking. For instance for the Hatari projects, there's releases, and developments. But for ARAnyM it's not the case, at all.
If there was a favorite developments platform, like the ATARI VCS, that
would make things easier. x86 ARAnyM target is the most accomplished,
for Windows, macOS and GNU/Linux. For ARM all is rather experimental.
Among GitHub, all CPU targets, the situation for devels is inextricable. Specially for old software like ARAnyM, that is in delicate situation.
It seems to me that peoples are discouraged with the GitHub complexity.
Francois LE COAT wrote:
Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before
thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!
Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one
developer for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't
upstream his changes :-(
Well the mess is not from developers, but from GitHub that is a
Microsoft technology. I don't understand anything to GitHub, that
is rather intended to Windows developers exclusively, I suspect.
I'm not sure. I don't perceive a Windows bias in Github, after all it
was used for open source projects for a very long time before Microsoft bought GitHub.
Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a while
ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I do run
it on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer buildable on
any modern Mac/Xcode.
That's what we're talking. For instance for the Hatari projects, there's
releases, and developments. But for ARAnyM it's not the case, at all.
If there was a favorite developments platform, like the ATARI VCS, that
would make things easier. x86 ARAnyM target is the most accomplished,
for Windows, macOS and GNU/Linux. For ARM all is rather experimental.
Among GitHub, all CPU targets, the situation for devels is inextricable.
Specially for old software like ARAnyM, that is in delicate situation.
It seems to me that peoples are discouraged with the GitHub complexity.
Perhaps, but honestly it just looks like git to me with their own style
of pull requests. Nothing outrageously different here. Do you have any concrete examples of "the situation for devels is inextricable"
especially regarding GitHub?
Hi,
Chris Ridd writes:
Francois LE COAT wrote:
Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only one
developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is
hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before >>>>> thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS!
Of course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one
developer for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't
upstream his changes :-(
Well the mess is not from developers, but from GitHub that is a
Microsoft technology. I don't understand anything to GitHub, that
is rather intended to Windows developers exclusively, I suspect.
I'm not sure. I don't perceive a Windows bias in Github, after all it
was used for open source projects for a very long time before
Microsoft bought GitHub.
Having said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a while
ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I do run
it on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer buildable
on any modern Mac/Xcode.
That's what we're talking. For instance for the Hatari projects, there's >>> releases, and developments. But for ARAnyM it's not the case, at all.
If there was a favorite developments platform, like the ATARI VCS, that
would make things easier. x86 ARAnyM target is the most accomplished,
for Windows, macOS and GNU/Linux. For ARM all is rather experimental.
Among GitHub, all CPU targets, the situation for devels is inextricable. >>> Specially for old software like ARAnyM, that is in delicate situation.
It seems to me that peoples are discouraged with the GitHub complexity.
Perhaps, but honestly it just looks like git to me with their own
style of pull requests. Nothing outrageously different here. Do you
have any concrete examples of "the situation for devels is
inextricable" especially regarding GitHub?
Yes. Will I have to pay developers to obtain macOS or Windows binaries?
Francois LE COAT wrote:
Do you know the status of ARAnyM developments? There's only oneOf course I do, and it does look a bit of a mess. If your "one
developer for the macOS target, and the support of Apple Silicon is >>>>>> hardly working, though the JIT compiler is not supported yet. Before >>>>>> thinking about an iOS support, there's a lot to be done with macOS! >>>>>
developer for the macOS target" is Philipp Donze, then he doesn't
upstream his changes :-(
Well the mess is not from developers, but from GitHub that is a
Microsoft technology. I don't understand anything to GitHub, that
is rather intended to Windows developers exclusively, I suspect.
I'm not sure. I don't perceive a Windows bias in Github, after all it
was used for open source projects for a very long time before
Microsoft bought GitHub.
Perhaps, but honestly it just looks like git to me with their ownHaving said that, I did build the MacAranym-Latest.xcodeproj a
while ago, create a small improvement to the screenshot code, and I >>>>> do run it on an M1. The "main" MacAranym.xcodeproj is no longer
buildable on any modern Mac/Xcode.
That's what we're talking. For instance for the Hatari projects,
there's
releases, and developments. But for ARAnyM it's not the case, at all.
If there was a favorite developments platform, like the ATARI VCS, that >>>> would make things easier. x86 ARAnyM target is the most accomplished,
for Windows, macOS and GNU/Linux. For ARM all is rather experimental.
Among GitHub, all CPU targets, the situation for devels is
inextricable.
Specially for old software like ARAnyM, that is in delicate situation. >>>> It seems to me that peoples are discouraged with the GitHub complexity. >>>
style of pull requests. Nothing outrageously different here. Do you
have any concrete examples of "the situation for devels is
inextricable" especially regarding GitHub?
Yes. Will I have to pay developers to obtain macOS or Windows binaries?
I can't speak for Windows. But for Macs there are a few scenarios for developers:
* do nothing: the app cannot be notarised by Apple and users will get
warned the app is untrusted. There's an extra step in System Settings
that the user has to take to allow it. This is not difficult, but it
needs documenting. It only affects the first run.
* pay for an individual Apple Developer Program membership ($99 per
annum): this lets the developer submit it to Apple for notarisation, and users will no longer get a warning.
* figure out how to get a waiver for that program membership for the
Aranym *team* ($0 but there is some overhead as you have to be an
official (and US?) non-profit organisation): this lets the team submit
it to Apple for notarisation, and users will no longer get a warning.
Developers can notarise as many times per year as they want, so you'd
want to do this in an automated way for every build. I think Philipp's
done this, possibly with an individual membership.
Apple's notarisation system is meant to scan your code for "malicious content". Obviously you can choose to believe they really just want to
screw developers out of $99 every year.
I assume (but have no evidence) that the waiver option is aimed at open source projects. It would be interesting to find out what other open
source projects actually do.
In the current situation I have a lot of difficulties with the binaries.
Can you test *ARAnyM miniPack* <https://eureka.atari.org/miniPack.zip>
I hope that it runs correctly, but I'm not sure at all. Because the
binary was downloaded on GitHub, and there's issues with signature...
Francois LE COAT wrote:
In the current situation I have a lot of difficulties with the binaries.
Can you test *ARAnyM miniPack* <https://eureka.atari.org/miniPack.zip>
I hope that it runs correctly, but I'm not sure at all. Because the
binary was downloaded on GitHub, and there's issues with signature...
It fails to open because it isn't notarised. The alert looks like:
"MacAranym" Not Opened
Apple could not verify "MacAranym" is free of malware that may harm your
Mac or compromise your privacy.
[Done] [Move to Bin]
If you hit Done, you can go to System Settings > Privacy and Security >
it has a button at the bottom letting you "Open Anyway".
It looks like it is signed OK, but the notarisation hasn't been attached ("stapled" in codesign terminology) to the app. Here's the output of codesign against MacAranym.app and Sigil.app (which is a correctly
notarised and opensource app)
$ codesign -dvvv MacAranym.app
Executable=/Users/cjr/Downloads/miniPack 2/MacAranym.app/Contents/MacOS/MacAranym Identifier=org.aranym.MacAranym.aranym
Format=app bundle with Mach-O universal (x86_64 arm64)
CodeDirectory v=20500 size=29383 flags=0x10000(runtime) hashes=907+7 location=embedded
Hash type=sha256 size=32
CandidateCDHash sha256=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de240 CandidateCDHashFull sha256=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de2409cf06649a29bac2c662a8717
Hash choices=sha256 CMSDigest=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de2409cf06649a29bac2c662a8717 CMSDigestType=2
CDHash=2a4c13f1f6d1fa12f51b2623de564e41865de240
Signature size=8977
Authority=Developer ID Application: Philipp Donze (P8CC95REUG) Authority=Developer ID Certification Authority
Authority=Apple Root CA
Timestamp=17 Jan 2025 at 22:40:46
Info.plist entries=27
TeamIdentifier=P8CC95REUG
Runtime Version=14.5.0
Sealed Resources version=2 rules=13 files=7
Internal requirements count=1 size=220
$ codesign -dvvv /Applications/Sigil.app Executable=/Applications/Sigil.app/Contents/MacOS/Sigil Identifier=com.sigil-ebook.Sigil.app
Format=app bundle with Mach-O thin (arm64)
CodeDirectory v=20500 size=67717 flags=0x10000(runtime) hashes=2105+7 location=embedded
Hash type=sha256 size=32
CandidateCDHash sha256=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2 CandidateCDHashFull sha256=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2bc4c59b3a8a466575f913717
Hash choices=sha256 CMSDigest=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2bc4c59b3a8a466575f913717 CMSDigestType=2
CDHash=12161a2aa64d527d73f95367a1788ae6bdbb44f2
Signature size=8979
Authority=Developer ID Application: Kevin Hendricks (2SMCVQU3CJ) Authority=Developer ID Certification Authority
Authority=Apple Root CA
Timestamp=31 Jan 2025 at 16:00:58
Notarization Ticket=stapled
Info.plist entries=17
TeamIdentifier=2SMCVQU3CJ
Runtime Version=14.5.0
Sealed Resources version=2 rules=13 files=374
Internal requirements count=1 size=188
If DR/GEM was ported to ATARI VCS natively, that would make sense...
Eureka 2.12 could run natively with the ATARI VCS computer, 40 years
after the ATARI ST.
Francois LE COAT wrote:
In the current situation I have a lot of difficulties with the binaries.
Can you test *ARAnyM miniPack* <https://eureka.atari.org/miniPack.zip>
I hope that it runs correctly, but I'm not sure at all. Because the
binary was downloaded on GitHub, and there's issues with signature...
It fails to open because it isn't notarised. The alert looks like:
"MacAranym" Not Opened
Apple could not verify "MacAranym" is free of malware that may harm your
Mac or compromise your privacy.
[Done] [Move to Bin]
If you hit Done, you can go to System Settings > Privacy and Security >
it has a button at the bottom letting you "Open Anyway".
It looks like it is signed OK, but the notarisation hasn't been attached ("stapled" in codesign terminology) to the app. Here's the output of codesign against MacAranym.app and Sigil.app (which is a correctly
notarised and opensource app)
...
Sysop: | Keyop |
---|---|
Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
Users: | 491 |
Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
Uptime: | 90:15:49 |
Calls: | 9,679 |
Files: | 13,722 |
Messages: | 6,173,897 |