XPost: sci.logic

On 5/10/24 5:43 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 4:19 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 5:11 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 3:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 4:27 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 3:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 1:49 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 11:12 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/10/24 11:50 AM, olcott wrote:

On 5/10/2024 9:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/9/24 11:10 PM, olcott wrote:

On 5/9/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/9/24 11:38 AM, olcott wrote:

On 5/8/2024 8:38 PM, immibis wrote:

On 8/05/24 21:05, olcott wrote:

On 5/8/2024 10:13 AM, Mike Terry wrote:

On 08/05/2024 14:01, olcott wrote:

On 5/8/2024 3:59 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-07 19:05:54 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On 5/7/2024 1:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 07.mei.2024 om 17:40 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2024 6:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/24 3:30 AM, Mikko wrote:

On 2024-05-06 18:28:37 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On 5/6/2024 11:19 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-05 17:02:25 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The x86utm operating system: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm enables >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one C function to execute another C function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in debug step mode.
Simulating Termination analyzer H simulates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the x86 machine code of its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input (using libx86emu) in debug step mode >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until it correctly matches a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct non-halting behavior pattern proving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that its input will never
stop running unless aborted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Can D correctly simulated by H terminate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally?
00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int function
01 int D(ptr x)
02 {
03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
05     HERE: goto HERE; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
08
09 int main()
10 {
11   H(D,D);
12 }

*Execution Trace*
Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
*keeps repeating* (unless aborted) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) that simulates D(D) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
*Simulation invariant*
D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach past its own line 03. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The above execution trace proves that (for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every H/D pair of the
infinite set of H/D pairs) each D(D) simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the H that this D(D)
calls cannot possibly reach past its own line 03. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

When you say "every H/D pair" you should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify which set of pairs
you are talking about. As you don't, your words >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't mean anything.

Every H/D pair in the universe where D(D) is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by the
same H(D,D) that D(D) calls. This involves 1 to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∞ steps of D
and also includes zero to ∞ recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulations where H
H simulates itself simulating D(D). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"In the universe" is not a set. In typical set >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories like ZFC there
is no universal set.

This template defines an infinite set of finite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> string H/D pairs where each D(D) that is simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by H(D,D) also calls this same H(D,D). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These H/D pairs can be enumerated by the one to ∞ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated steps of D and involve zero to ∞ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulations of H simulating itself >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulating D(D). Every time Lines 1,2,3 are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated again defines
one more level of recursive simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1st element of H/D pairs 1 step  of D  is simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by H
2nd element of H/D pairs 2 steps of D are simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by H
3rd element of H/D pairs 3 steps of D are simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by H

4th element of H/D pairs 4 steps of D are simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by H
this begins the first recursive simulation at line 01 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
5th element of H/D pairs 5 steps of D are simulated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next step of the first recursive simulation at line 02 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6th element of H/D pairs 6 steps of D are simulated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last step of the first recursive simulation at line 03 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
7th element of H/D pairs 7 steps of D are simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by H
this begins the second recursive simulation at line 01 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Is this the definition of the infinite set of H? We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can think of many more simulations that only these. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This template defines an infinite set of finite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> string H/D pairs where
each D(D) that is simulated by H(D,D) also calls this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same H(D,D).

No-one can possibly show one element of this set >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where D(D) reaches
past its own line 03.

If H is a decider of any kind then the D build from it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches its line
4 as numberd above. Whether the simulation of D by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches that line
is another question.

*My fully operational code proves otherwise* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I seems like you guys don't have a clue about how infinite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursion works. You can run the code and see that I am >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct.

I have one concrete instance as fully operational code. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 555 u32 HH(ptr P, ptr I) its input in on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 932 int DD(int (*x)())

HH is completely broken - it uses a global variable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is allows HH to detect whether it is the outer HH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a nested (simulated) HH. As a result, the nested HH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaves completely differently to the outer HH - I mean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /completely/ differently: it goes through a totally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate "I am called in nested mode" code path! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The encoding of HH is not the pure function that it needs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be to
be a computable function.

*Maybe you can settle this*

The disagreement is entirely over an enormously much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simpler thing.
The disagreement is that Richard says that a D simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by H could
reach past its own line 03 and halt.

Here's the proof:

1. A simulation always produces an identical execution >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trace to the direct execution.

*When pathological self-reference is involved this is >>>>>>>>>>>>> counter-factual*
That no one can possibly show the steps of how D simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>> by H possibly
reach line 06 of H proves this.

Richard tried to get away with D never simulated by H as an >>>>>>>>>>>>> example
of D simulated by H:

Nope, you are looking at the WRONG message, and I have told >>>>>>>>>>>> you this multiple times.

Message-ID: <v0ummt$2qov3$2@i2pn2.org>
*When you interpret*
On 5/1/2024 7:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 5/1/24 11:51 AM, olcott wrote:

*Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*

as *D NEVER simulated by H*

you have shown a reckless disregard for the truth
that would win a defamation case.

My H simulated 0 steps of D, of which was ALL of the steps it >>>>>>>>>> simulated correctly.

*THAT DOES NOT MEET THE SPEC*

You haven't GIVEN a defined SPEC.

The only definition within Computation Theory, which is the
space you started in, and claim to get to, doesn't have
"aborted" simulations, so you don't have a defintion of what
simulatioin actually means, other than doing something that
tells you something about the behavior of what is simulated.

My H does that, by aborting its "simulation" in shows that THIS >>>>>>>> H did not simulate its input to a final state.

Just the same result that you partial set of H's showed.

*THAT DOES NOT MEET THE SPEC*
*THAT DOES NOT MEET THE SPEC*
*THAT DOES NOT MEET THE SPEC*

*Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*

*Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*

*Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*

*Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*

*Every D simulated by H that cannot possibly*
*stop running unless aborted by H*

Right, and simulating zero steps correctly and them aborting
means H

*cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*

Aborted after 0 steps which is all that that H does.

*cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*
*BY cannot possibly start running*


*cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*
*BY cannot possibly start running*

*cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*
*BY cannot possibly start running*

*cannot possibly stop running unless aborted is not met*
*BY cannot possibly start running*

You can start and then immediately stop an not make any progress.

A bit like your "first point after 0".

You just don't understand how logic works.

And your definition is also illogical, as H either DOES or DOES NOT
abort its simulation.

*WRONG DICHOTOMY STRAW-MAN DECEPTION*

But there is no Dichotomy, as there is just H, an not something to
compare it to.

The other thing you compare it to is not H.

"...cannot possibly stop running unless aborted"
*stops running if not aborted or keeps running if not aborted*

But *THE* H does one or the other.

Is your employer aware that your memory is this bad?
Are you in management where slick double-talk can hide this?

Well, since you don't have an employer, I guess we can tell who performs better.

*I have repeated time and again that I have always been referring*
*to the specific infinite set of H/D pairs specified below*

And how does MAIN call an "Infinite set" of functions?

And how is that an exact implementation of the Linz Proof, were H and H^
are specific (but arbitrary) machines?

Or Sipsers proof, where again H is a single specific (but arbitary)
machine and D is a single specific one made from it?

*I have repeated time and again that I have always been referring*
*to the specific infinite set of H/D pairs specified below*

*I have repeated time and again that I have always been referring*
*to the specific infinite set of H/D pairs specified below*

00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
01 int D(ptr x)
02 {
03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
04   if (Halt_Status)
05     HERE: goto HERE;
06   return Halt_Status;
07 }
08
09 int main()
10 {
11   H(D,D);
12 }

Any H/D pair matching the above template where D(D) is simulated
by the same H(D,D) that it calls cannot possibly reach past its own
line 03. Simple software engineering verified fact.

Which has been proven to be a LIE.

And, you clearly don't belive that I didn't prove it, as you refuse to
commit to the put up or shut up challange, so your repeating the claim
is just an admonition that your logic is based on lying.

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