• Re: I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases with mt new notion o

    From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 5 22:35:19 2024
    On 9/5/24 8:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works.
    Millions of these stipulated relations in a knowledge hierarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)
    comprise human knowledge expressed in language.

    Stipulated relations are like the Prolog Facts. Truth preserving
    operations are like the Prolog Rules. Anything unprovable by
    Facts and Rules in the system is untrue in the system.

    Self-contradictory expressions are rejected as not truth bearers
    instead of categorized as undecidable propositions.

    Which just shows you don't even understand the problem that Gettier was pointing out. It isn't "bad logic", it is knowing you have a correct interpretation of your observations.

    Your problem is it is impossible to determine "sufficient verification".

    And, you are just the prefect example of this, as you insist that false statement must be true, because you THINK you have sufficient
    verification, but the problem is you don't actually know what you are
    talking about.



    Empirically verified to be true in the current moment:
    I have a left hand right now, is sufficient.

    I can't verify that.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri Sep 6 13:39:43 2024
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri Sep 6 07:28:48 2024
    On 9/6/24 7:17 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    In other words, you are just admitting that you don't know what you are
    doing, as you don't really get redefine fundamental terms and stay in
    the logic system.


    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.


    So, I guess you don't think the pythagorous formula, that "the square of
    the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two
    sides" is "proved true" as it can not be proved entirely based on its
    MEANING expressed in the language. Since its "proof" isn't based on just
    the actual meaning of any of the words used, it can't be true by your definition.

    Sorry, you are just proving that you are a total idiot.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri Sep 6 07:34:43 2024
    On 9/5/24 11:47 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/5/2024 9:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/5/24 8:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works.
    Millions of these stipulated relations in a knowledge hierarchy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)
    comprise human knowledge expressed in language.

    Stipulated relations are like the Prolog Facts. Truth preserving
    operations are like the Prolog Rules. Anything unprovable by
    Facts and Rules in the system is untrue in the system.

    Self-contradictory expressions are rejected as not truth bearers
    instead of categorized as undecidable propositions.

    Which just shows you don't even understand the problem that Gettier
    was pointing out. It isn't "bad logic", it is knowing you have a
    correct interpretation of your observations.

    Your problem is it is impossible to determine "sufficient verification".


    It was a justified true belief (all three were stipulated)
    except the justification had a loophole allowing it to be
    insufficient justification under Gettier.

    And the problem is you can't just "define away" that insufficiency.

    Your problem is you just don't know enough to see the problem, and thus
    assume there isn't one, which is EXACTLY the sort of thing Gettier was
    pointing out. One of the examples was deducing there was a fire because
    they saw smoke, but the "smoke" was just a cloud of insects, and not
    smoke, attracted to the fire that wasn't creating smoke.

    The justification was incorrect, so should we call that knowledge of
    fire, and if someone can be convinced they "know" something, when they
    don't, were they correct in calling it "knowledge", and if we can't
    actually know that we know something, do we even know it, even if it
    might be true?


    Just like it is stipulated to be true, it is now stipulated
    to be "sufficient justification". The strongest justification
    is a necessary consequence from stipulated truths.

    No, you are just showing your ignorance for the words or what the
    problem is.

    It is not "stipulated" that knowledge is true, it is a definitional requirement. And the problem that Gettier was talking about is that we
    can't be certain our interpretation of our observation is correct, so we
    can't be sure our reaso


    *The simplest example of this is the syllogism*
    Major premise: All humans are mortal.
    Minor premise: All Greeks are humans.
    Conclusion/Consequent: All Greeks are mortal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    Which, since it has no "observations" in it, doesn't talk about the
    issue here.


    Other justifications would be less certain https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/


    Which seems to mean that you are just trying to define away the problem
    by ignoring it. Gettier is talking about knowledge that comes from observations, and the fact that it seems impossible to determine if we
    are "correctly interpreting" or observations of the world.

    Thus, the question of can we actually have empirical knowledge?

    You are just showing your short sightedness by pontificating about
    things you do not understand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri Sep 6 19:10:14 2024
    On 9/6/24 7:52 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:28 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/6/24 7:17 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification? >>>>>>>>

    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    In other words, you are just admitting that you don't know what you
    are doing, as you don't really get redefine fundamental terms and stay
    in the logic system.


    I came up with a brand new idea and gave it an appropriate name.
    Truth in the system that I defined only pertains to relations
    between finite strings. It is the actual philosophical foundation
    of every expression X of language L that is true on the basis of
    its meaning expressed in language L.

    You can't get away with saying that all new ideas are inherently wrong.

    They are when you try to inject them into existing systems.

    You need to be clear that you are creating a brand new system with these
    new definitions, and then you can not refer to anything from the old
    system until you actually show that you logic system gets you to them.

    General Philosophy can be loose, but comp.theory is about FORMAL system,
    not just philosophy, and requires more rigor.




    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.


    So, I guess you don't think the pythagorous formula, that "the square
    of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two
    sides" is "proved true" as it can not be proved entirely based on its
    MEANING expressed in the language. Since its "proof" isn't based on
    just the actual meaning of any of the words used, it can't be true by
    your definition.

    Sorry, you are just proving that you are a total idiot.

    I never limited meaning to words. Meaning is relations between
    finite strings. The body of {linguistic truth} is the body of
    {analytic truth} that the logical positivists promoted except
    it has been made unequivocal.


    So, what is the actual diffference in a formal system? In formal system
    all words have a precise meaning.

    I think you don't understand what a formal system is, maybe you need to
    be talking in a newsgroup devoted to general philosophy, not a formal
    system.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Sep 7 11:09:11 2024
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the term.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Sep 7 08:22:24 2024
    On 9/6/24 11:31 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/6/24 8:10 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:34 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/5/24 11:47 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/5/2024 9:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/5/24 8:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification? >>>>>>>>>>

    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works. >>>>>>> Millions of these stipulated relations in a knowledge hierarchy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)
    comprise human knowledge expressed in language.

    Stipulated relations are like the Prolog Facts. Truth preserving >>>>>>> operations are like the Prolog Rules. Anything unprovable by
    Facts and Rules in the system is untrue in the system.

    Self-contradictory expressions are rejected as not truth bearers >>>>>>> instead of categorized as undecidable propositions.

    Which just shows you don't even understand the problem that
    Gettier was pointing out. It isn't "bad logic", it is knowing you
    have a correct interpretation of your observations.

    Your problem is it is impossible to determine "sufficient
    verification".


    It was a justified true belief (all three were stipulated)
    except the justification had a loophole allowing it to be
    insufficient justification under Gettier.

    And the problem is you can't just "define away" that insufficiency.

    Your problem is you just don't know enough to see the problem, and
    thus assume there isn't one, which is EXACTLY the sort of thing
    Gettier was pointing out. One of the examples was deducing there was
    a fire because they saw smoke, but the "smoke" was just a cloud of
    insects, and not smoke, attracted to the fire that wasn't creating
    smoke.

    The justification was incorrect, so should we call that knowledge of
    fire, and if someone can be convinced they "know" something, when
    they don't, were they correct in calling it "knowledge", and if we
    can't actually know that we know something, do we even know it, even
    if it might be true?


    Just like it is stipulated to be true, it is now stipulated
    to be "sufficient justification". The strongest justification
    is a necessary consequence from stipulated truths.

    No, you are just showing your ignorance for the words or what the
    problem is.

    It is not "stipulated" that knowledge is true, it is a definitional
    requirement. And the problem that Gettier was talking about is that
    we can't be certain our interpretation of our observation is
    correct, so we can't be sure our reaso


    *The simplest example of this is the syllogism*
    Major premise: All humans are mortal.
    Minor premise: All Greeks are humans.
    Conclusion/Consequent: All Greeks are mortal.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    Which, since it has no "observations" in it, doesn't talk about the
    issue here.


    It provides a concrete example of sufficient justification thus
    conclusively proving the sufficient justification exists.

    Nope, just that you don't understand the logic you are talking about.

    Gettier isn't talking about "Analytic Truth" which is a truth based on
    the defined definitions, but on Knowledge based on observation, i.e
    emperical knowledge.



    Other justifications would be less certain
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/


    Which seems to mean that you are just trying to define away the
    problem by ignoring it.

    A justified true belief is impossibly false because it is stipulated
    to only apply to true beliefs.

    And that is the problem, you can't TELL if it is a justified true
    belief, so you can't tell if it is actually knowledge.


    Gettier is talking about knowledge that comes from observations, and
    the fact that it seems impossible to determine if we are "correctly
    interpreting" or observations of the world.


    Suppose that Smith and Jones have applied for a certain job.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem#Case_I
    Sufficient evidence that Smith got the job would be the boss
    tells Smith he got the job.

    Nope, The boss might have lied.


    It is 100% impossible that the boss lied because in all
    of these cases the belief is stipulated to be true.

    Nope, you don't understand that problem.

    The question is how can you determine that your believe has sufficent
    reason to be true.

    You don't even understand that problem, so why do you think you can
    solve it.



    When someone is going by the number of coins in the pocket
    of the one that is hired as the determiner of who is hired
    they must have a few screws loose in their brain.


    Which just shows that you don't understand that problem.

    Sorry, you are just mentally incapable to deal with this.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Sep 7 09:58:18 2024
    On 9/7/24 9:44 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 7:22 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/6/24 11:31 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/6/24 8:10 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:34 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/5/24 11:47 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/5/2024 9:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/5/24 8:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient
    verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that >>>>>>>>>> nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually >>>>>>>>> works.
    Millions of these stipulated relations in a knowledge hierarchy >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science) >>>>>>>>> comprise human knowledge expressed in language.

    Stipulated relations are like the Prolog Facts. Truth preserving >>>>>>>>> operations are like the Prolog Rules. Anything unprovable by >>>>>>>>> Facts and Rules in the system is untrue in the system.

    Self-contradictory expressions are rejected as not truth bearers >>>>>>>>> instead of categorized as undecidable propositions.

    Which just shows you don't even understand the problem that
    Gettier was pointing out. It isn't "bad logic", it is knowing
    you have a correct interpretation of your observations.

    Your problem is it is impossible to determine "sufficient
    verification".


    It was a justified true belief (all three were stipulated)
    except the justification had a loophole allowing it to be
    insufficient justification under Gettier.

    And the problem is you can't just "define away" that insufficiency. >>>>>>
    Your problem is you just don't know enough to see the problem, and >>>>>> thus assume there isn't one, which is EXACTLY the sort of thing
    Gettier was pointing out. One of the examples was deducing there
    was a fire because they saw smoke, but the "smoke" was just a
    cloud of insects, and not smoke, attracted to the fire that wasn't >>>>>> creating smoke.

    The justification was incorrect, so should we call that knowledge
    of fire, and if someone can be convinced they "know" something,
    when they don't, were they correct in calling it "knowledge", and
    if we can't actually know that we know something, do we even know
    it, even if it might be true?


    Just like it is stipulated to be true, it is now stipulated
    to be "sufficient justification". The strongest justification
    is a necessary consequence from stipulated truths.

    No, you are just showing your ignorance for the words or what the
    problem is.

    It is not "stipulated" that knowledge is true, it is a
    definitional requirement. And the problem that Gettier was talking >>>>>> about is that we can't be certain our interpretation of our
    observation is correct, so we can't be sure our reaso


    *The simplest example of this is the syllogism*
    Major premise: All humans are mortal.
    Minor premise: All Greeks are humans.
    Conclusion/Consequent: All Greeks are mortal.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    Which, since it has no "observations" in it, doesn't talk about
    the issue here.


    It provides a concrete example of sufficient justification thus
    conclusively proving the sufficient justification exists.

    Nope, just that you don't understand the logic you are talking about.

    Gettier isn't talking about "Analytic Truth" which is a truth based
    on the defined definitions, but on Knowledge based on observation,
    i.e emperical knowledge.



    Other justifications would be less certain
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/


    Which seems to mean that you are just trying to define away the
    problem by ignoring it.

    A justified true belief is impossibly false because it is stipulated >>>>> to only apply to true beliefs.

    And that is the problem, you can't TELL if it is a justified true
    belief, so you can't tell if it is actually knowledge.


    Gettier is talking about knowledge that comes from observations,
    and the fact that it seems impossible to determine if we are
    "correctly interpreting" or observations of the world.


    Suppose that Smith and Jones have applied for a certain job.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem#Case_I
    Sufficient evidence that Smith got the job would be the boss
    tells Smith he got the job.

    Nope, The boss might have lied.


    It is 100% impossible that the boss lied because in all
    of these cases the belief is stipulated to be true.

    Nope, you don't understand that problem.

    The question is how can you determine that your believe has sufficent
    reason to be true.

    Within the stipulated definitions that I am
    providing that is the same as asking how do
    you know that a true statement is true?

    Right, How do you *KNOW* that the statement you THINK is true, is
    actually true.

    Remember, you only know the given stipulations of the system, not the
    unstated stipulations of the meta-system or the model you are working in.


    We could define knowledge differently
    as any believe such that we have sufficient
    reason to know it is true.

    Example your boss tells you you got the job and you
    take the job and work on the job for ten years.
    This is 100% perfectly sufficient reason to know
    you got the job.


    And then retire and apply for Social Securith and find that he never
    told the government you worked for him, and thus find out that legally,
    you never actually worked for him.

    Yes, SOME statements can have strong enough evidence that we can be very certain they must be true. But that isn't the problem. The problem that
    he was looking at is that on the edge, we can not define a point where
    we can demark the line between the concept that we actually KNOW
    something and we don't but think we do.

    Here is where your use of the fallacy of proof by example shows how
    stupid you are.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Sep 8 12:17:23 2024
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification? >>>>>>>>

    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept?

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Sep 8 13:55:28 2024
    On 9/8/24 9:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification? >>>>>>>>>>

    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works. >>>>>>
    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used >>>>>> by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept?


    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott


    If that is your claim, then a statement is Linguistically FALSE if there
    is NOT such a connection (verses there is a connection to its negation),
    since THAT is the definiton of the Truth Predicate of Tarski, it results
    in TRUE if the statement is True, or FALSE if the statement is either
    FALSE or not actually a truth bearer, and it is that later part that
    causes the problem.

    The problem arises because if the language L can express a statement like:

    X is defined to be ~True(L, X)

    Then if True(L, X) is false, then X, since it is the negation of that,
    must be TRUE, which leads to a contradiction as we have just shown that
    True(L, x) just returned FALSE for a TRUE statement.

    Note, that the major part of the proof, that you tend to overlook, is
    showing that in the system L, based on the minimal requirements
    specified, that such a statement CAN be expressed.

    You "Logic" tryies to say that it needs to "Reject" the statement, but "rejection" is not a possible result, BY DEFINITION, non-true statements
    are just false, even if they are non-sense.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Sep 9 12:11:43 2024
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification? >>>>>>>>>>

    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works. >>>>>>
    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used >>>>>> by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept?


    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear
    what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino
    is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the
    opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not
    identifiable.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Sep 9 22:48:18 2024
    On 9/9/24 9:03 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient
    verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that >>>>>>>>>> nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually >>>>>>>>> works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been >>>>>>>> used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the term. >>>>>>

    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used it
    before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept?


    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear
    what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino
    is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the
    opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not
    identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    Nope, the proof began earlier, where he shows that


    Tarski's Liar Paradox from page 248
       It would then be possible to reconstruct the antinomy of the liar

    Read what he says, the following is a CONCLUSION of the previous work he
    just did, stuff apperently you don't understand so your eyes just glazed
    over them. Of course, starting in the middle means you lose the context
    of what is done. That means calling it "an assumption" just makes you
    into a stupid liar, as it wasn't "assumped" it was proven.

    Of course, since you consider the stuff you assume to be proven, it just
    shows how utterly hypocritical you are, and that you are just a
    pathological liar.

       in the metalanguage, by forming in the language itself a sentence
       x such that the sentence of the metalanguage which is correlated
       with x asserts that x is not a true sentence.
       https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_247_248.pdf

    Formalized as:
    x ∉ True if and only if p
    where the symbol 'p' represents the whole sentence x https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_275_276.pdf

    adapted to become this
    x ∉ Pr if and only if p  // line 1 of the proof

    Here is the Tarski Undefinability Theorem proof
    (1) x ∉ Provable if and only if p       // assumption (see above)

    WRONG, PROVEN from his previous work. Calling it an "assuption" just
    proves you are an ignorant liar.

    (2) x ∈ True if and only if p              // Tarski's convention T
    (3) x ∉ Provable if and only if x ∈ True. // (1) and (2) combined
    (4) either x ∉ True or x̄ ∉ True;      // axiom: ~True(x) ∨ ~True(~x)
    (5) if x ∈ Provable, then x ∈ True;  // axiom: Provable(x) → True(x) (6) if x̄ ∈ Provable, then x̄ ∈ True;  // axiom: Provable(~x) → True(~x)
    (7) x ∈ True
    (8) x ∉ Provable
    (9) x̄ ∉ Provable



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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Sep 10 11:43:14 2024
    On 2024-09-09 13:03:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic
    entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification? >>>>>>>>>>>>

    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that >>>>>>>>>> nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway.


    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works. >>>>>>>>
    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used >>>>>>>> by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the term. >>>>>>

    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used it before? >>>> Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept?


    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear
    what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino
    is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the
    opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not
    identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    In the system Tarski was using (i.e. ordinary logic) a proof cannot
    be rejected.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Sep 10 18:59:03 2024
    On 9/10/24 9:46 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 13:03:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>> verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that >>>>>>>>>>>> nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually >>>>>>>>>>> works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has >>>>>>>>>> been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the >>>>>>>> term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used it
    before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept?


    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear
    what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino
    is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the
    opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not
    identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    In the system Tarski was using (i.e. ordinary logic) a proof cannot
    be rejected.


    If the system is too stupid to reject invalid input
    then it is too stupid. Ordinary logic is too stupid
    to even say the Liar Paradox that I what I invented
    minimal type theory.

    No, you are too stupid to understand that "rejection" isn't an option,
    only success or failure, but success is proved impossible.

    YOU are the one proved "TOO STUPID" because you failed to learn what you
    are going to talk about.


    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331859461_Minimal_Type_Theory_YACC_BNF

    LP := ~True(LP)
    (0) not  (1)
    (1) true (0) // cycle in digraph


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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed Sep 11 10:46:53 2024
    On 2024-09-10 13:46:59 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 13:03:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said:

    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that >>>>>>>>>>>> nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works. >>>>>>>>>>
    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used >>>>>>>>>> by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the term. >>>>>>>>

    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept?


    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear
    what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino
    is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the
    opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not
    identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    In the system Tarski was using (i.e. ordinary logic) a proof cannot
    be rejected.


    If the system is too stupid to reject invalid input
    then it is too stupid. Ordinary logic is too stupid
    to even say the Liar Paradox that I what I invented
    minimal type theory.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331859461_Minimal_Type_Theory_YACC_BNF

    LP := ~True(LP)
    (0) not (1)
    (1) true (0) // cycle in digraph

    For ordinary first order logic it is possible to make a program that
    reads a text file and checks whether it is a vlaid proof. Is the same
    possible for your Minimal Type Theory?

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed Sep 11 19:23:07 2024
    On 9/11/24 8:05 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 5:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/10/24 9:36 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/9/2024 9:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/9/24 3:07 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/8/2024 12:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/8/24 9:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth
    actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has >>>>>>>>>>>> been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the >>>>>>>>>> term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used >>>>>>>> it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept? >>>>>>>>

    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott


    If that is your claim, then a statement is Linguistically FALSE if >>>>>> there is NOT such a connection (verses there is a connection to
    its negation), since THAT is the definiton of the Truth Predicate
    of Tarski, it results in TRUE if the statement is True, or FALSE
    if the statement is either FALSE or not actually a truth bearer,
    and it is that later part that causes the problem.


    LP = "this sentence is not true"
    according to MY truth predicate
    ~True(LP) & ~True(~LP) MEANING NOT ALLOWED IN ANY FORMAL
    SYSTEM BECAUSE IT IS NOT A FREAKING BEATER OF TRUTH.

    So, you admit that you system can't have a truth predicate per the
    required definition either.


    No jackass. I admit that my truth predicate is smart
    enough to reject invalid input you freaking moron.
    I admit the every system that does not do this is AFU !



    On other words, you admit that it doesn't meet the requirements to
    give a TRUE/FALSE answer for EVERY input.


    You already said that "a fish" is neither true nor false.
    x = "a fish"
    Boolean True(English,  x) == false
    Boolean True(English, ~x) == false

    if (~True(English,x) & ~True(English, ~x))
      printf("x is not a truth bearer");

    So? That means that the predicate can't "Reject" funny non-sense, they
    just say it is false.

    But, if x is defined as ~True(L, x) and that makes True(L, x) false,
    then that makes x true, so the predicate just goofed and said a true
    statement was false.

    Sorry, you are just proving you don't understand the words you are using,


    In other words, you admit you are too stupid to know what you are
    talking about, because you don't actually know the definition of a
    truth predicate.

    You are just trying to declair that everything is just AFU, but you
    con't actually "fix" it, becasuse you don't know what you need to do
    to build another system, because that is to hard for you to understand
    from the "Clift Notes" you have studied about logic.

    Sorry, that IS the facts,



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed Sep 11 19:25:34 2024
    On 9/11/24 8:00 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 5:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/10/24 9:46 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 13:03:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth
    actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has >>>>>>>>>>>> been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the >>>>>>>>>> term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used >>>>>>>> it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept? >>>>>>>>

    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear
    what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino >>>>>> is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the >>>>>> opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not
    identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    In the system Tarski was using (i.e. ordinary logic) a proof cannot
    be rejected.


    If the system is too stupid to reject invalid input
    then it is too stupid. Ordinary logic is too stupid
    to even say the Liar Paradox that I what I invented
    minimal type theory.

    No, you are too stupid to understand that "rejection" isn't an option,

    In other words you are trying to pretend that type mismatch
    error doesn't exist. What is the square root of an actual dead frog?
    The answer must be numeric and it must be correct.
    "rejection" isn't an option


    No, just that it can't be a "type mismatch", as just prior to that
    Tarski proved that the statement *WAS* a valid statement.

    You are just proving you don't undertstand what you are reading and just guessing (incorrectly) what things means, which is one of the methods of stupidity. Smart people when they come across something they don't
    understand, spend so time to learn the meaning, but you are afraid that
    the truth will brainwash you, because you have already brainwashed yourself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed Sep 11 19:30:42 2024
    On 9/11/24 7:44 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 2:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:46:59 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 13:03:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth
    actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has >>>>>>>>>>>> been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the >>>>>>>>>> term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used >>>>>>>> it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept? >>>>>>>>

    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear
    what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino >>>>>> is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the >>>>>> opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not
    identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    In the system Tarski was using (i.e. ordinary logic) a proof cannot
    be rejected.


    If the system is too stupid to reject invalid input
    then it is too stupid. Ordinary logic is too stupid
    to even say the Liar Paradox that I what I invented
    minimal type theory.

    https://www.researchgate.net/
    publication/331859461_Minimal_Type_Theory_YACC_BNF

    LP := ~True(LP)
    (0) not  (1)
    (1) true (0) // cycle in digraph

    For ordinary first order logic it is possible to make a program that
    reads a text file and checks whether it is a vlaid proof. Is the same
    possible for your Minimal Type Theory?


    I don't need any of that. All that I need to do
    is reject the Liar Paradox as invalid input because
    it specifies a cycle in its evaluation sequence.
    Tarski was simply far too stupid to this this.


    And thus prove you don't understand what you are talking about,

    Tarski understand that it creates a cycle, and that is why the truth
    predicate can't exist, because adding it to the system allows the cycle
    into the system as something that must be resolved, but can't.

    Until you can show the error in the prior section that he was refering
    to to show why that statement CAN'T be formed, you are just stuck being
    the stupid liar.

    Of course, the fact that you don't understand it gives your problems,
    but that just shows that your think it is ok to lie if you don't know
    the answer.

    Sorry, that is just the actual facts, even if you are too stupid to
    understand it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 11:17:21 2024
    On 2024-09-11 11:44:39 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:46:59 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 13:03:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction
    yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}.

    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely
    based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical
    truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be
    verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used the term. >>>>>>>>>>

    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept? >>>>>>>>

    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning
    for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear
    what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino >>>>>> is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the >>>>>> opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic
    meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not
    identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    In the system Tarski was using (i.e. ordinary logic) a proof cannot
    be rejected.


    If the system is too stupid to reject invalid input
    then it is too stupid. Ordinary logic is too stupid
    to even say the Liar Paradox that I what I invented
    minimal type theory.

    https://www.researchgate.net/
    publication/331859461_Minimal_Type_Theory_YACC_BNF

    LP := ~True(LP)
    (0) not  (1)
    (1) true (0) // cycle in digraph

    For ordinary first order logic it is possible to make a program that
    reads a text file and checks whether it is a vlaid proof. Is the same
    possible for your Minimal Type Theory?

    I don't need any of that.

    If your Minimal Type Theory does not do more than that then it is not publishable in a respectable journal.

    All that I need to do
    is reject the Liar Paradox as invalid input because
    it specifies a cycle in its evaluation sequence.
    Tarski was simply far too stupid to this this.

    Then you needn't tell anybody about your rejection.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 08:07:15 2024
    On 9/11/24 11:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 6:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 8:05 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 5:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/10/24 9:36 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/9/2024 9:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/9/24 3:07 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/8/2024 12:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/8/24 9:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has >>>>>>>>>>>>>> been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction >>>>>>>>>>>>> yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely >>>>>>>>>>>>> based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical >>>>>>>>>>>>> truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used >>>>>>>>>>>> the term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used >>>>>>>>>> it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept? >>>>>>>>>>

    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning >>>>>>>>> for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context. >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic >>>>>>>>> meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott


    If that is your claim, then a statement is Linguistically FALSE >>>>>>>> if there is NOT such a connection (verses there is a connection >>>>>>>> to its negation), since THAT is the definiton of the Truth
    Predicate of Tarski, it results in TRUE if the statement is
    True, or FALSE if the statement is either FALSE or not actually >>>>>>>> a truth bearer, and it is that later part that causes the problem. >>>>>>>>

    LP = "this sentence is not true"
    according to MY truth predicate
    ~True(LP) & ~True(~LP) MEANING NOT ALLOWED IN ANY FORMAL
    SYSTEM BECAUSE IT IS NOT A FREAKING BEATER OF TRUTH.

    So, you admit that you system can't have a truth predicate per the >>>>>> required definition either.


    No jackass. I admit that my truth predicate is smart
    enough to reject invalid input you freaking moron.
    I admit the every system that does not do this is AFU !



    On other words, you admit that it doesn't meet the requirements to
    give a TRUE/FALSE answer for EVERY input.


    You already said that "a fish" is neither true nor false.
    x = "a fish"
    Boolean True(English,  x) == false
    Boolean True(English, ~x) == false

    if (~True(English,x) & ~True(English, ~x))
       printf("x is not a truth bearer");

    So? That means that the predicate can't "Reject" funny non-sense, they
    just say it is false.


    You are just too clueless  about how these things work.
    Expressions of language that are not a truth bearers
    are a type mismatch error for formal logic systems.


    But that just means that the Truth Predicate isn't a truth evaluator, as
    its answer is not a truth-bearing result.

    Remember, x was formally derived in the logic system, and thus WAS A
    VALID INPUT to True().

    The True(L, x) MUST be a valid logic value, and thus it can't be a non-truth-bearer.

    The only solution found so far is that such a Truth Predicate can't
    exist in system as powerful as the one Tarski was imagining.

    You are just showing that the logic system you can think of are not that powerful, because you are just that stupid.

    Propositions must be declarative sentence types or there
    is a type mismatch error.

    Right, and "x is defined in L as ~True(L, x)" is a declarative sentence.

    You are just proving you ignorance of what you are talking about,

    It seems your brain exploded in a wave of contradicitions some long time
    ago and left you unable to actually think any more, and just parrot your garbled mistakes over and over again.


    But, if x is defined as ~True(L, x) and that makes True(L, x) false,
    then that makes x true, so the predicate just goofed and said a true
    statement was false.

    Sorry, you are just proving you don't understand the words you are using,


    In other words, you admit you are too stupid to know what you are
    talking about, because you don't actually know the definition of a
    truth predicate.

    You are just trying to declair that everything is just AFU, but you
    con't actually "fix" it, becasuse you don't know what you need to do
    to build another system, because that is to hard for you to
    understand from the "Clift Notes" you have studied about logic.

    Sorry, that IS the facts,






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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 08:11:54 2024
    On 9/12/24 12:03 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 6:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 8:00 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 5:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/10/24 9:46 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 13:03:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has >>>>>>>>>>>>>> been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction >>>>>>>>>>>>> yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely >>>>>>>>>>>>> based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical >>>>>>>>>>>>> truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used >>>>>>>>>>>> the term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used >>>>>>>>>> it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept? >>>>>>>>>>

    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning >>>>>>>>> for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context. >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear >>>>>>>> what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino >>>>>>>> is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the >>>>>>>> opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic >>>>>>>>> meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not >>>>>>>> identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    In the system Tarski was using (i.e. ordinary logic) a proof cannot >>>>>> be rejected.


    If the system is too stupid to reject invalid input
    then it is too stupid. Ordinary logic is too stupid
    to even say the Liar Paradox that I what I invented
    minimal type theory.

    No, you are too stupid to understand that "rejection" isn't an option,

    In other words you are trying to pretend that type mismatch
    error doesn't exist. What is the square root of an actual dead frog?
    The answer must be numeric and it must be correct.
    "rejection" isn't an option


    No, just that it can't be a "type mismatch",

    That is is ridiculously stupid thing to say
    you are claiming that an actual dead frog has a numeric square root


    Nope, I am claiming that a statement that was derived from the system
    can't be a type mismatch in the system.


    *This has been my original basis since 2012*

    Kurt Gödel in his 1944 Russell's mathematical logic gave the following definition of the "theory of simple types" in a footnote:

    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says that the
    objects of thought ... are divided into types, namely: individuals, properties of individuals, relations between individuals, properties of
    such relations, etc. (with a similar hierarchy for extensions), and that sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears the relation
    R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ are not of types
    fitting together.

    So, where does the statement "x" violate that?

    Remember, Tarski shows that "x" is a statement derivable in the system
    when we include the fact that a Truth Predicate True(L, x) exists.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944


    as just prior to that Tarski proved that the statement *WAS* a valid
    statement.

    You are just proving you don't undertstand what you are reading and
    just guessing (incorrectly) what things means, which is one of the
    methods of stupidity. Smart people when they come across something
    they don't understand, spend so time to learn the meaning, but you are
    afraid that the truth will brainwash you, because you have already
    brainwashed yourself.



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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 08:25:39 2024
    On 9/12/24 8:10 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 3:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 11:44:39 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:46:59 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 13:03:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has >>>>>>>>>>>>>> been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction >>>>>>>>>>>>> yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely >>>>>>>>>>>>> based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical >>>>>>>>>>>>> truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used >>>>>>>>>>>> the term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used >>>>>>>>>> it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept? >>>>>>>>>>

    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning >>>>>>>>> for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context. >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear >>>>>>>> what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino >>>>>>>> is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the >>>>>>>> opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic >>>>>>>>> meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not >>>>>>>> identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    In the system Tarski was using (i.e. ordinary logic) a proof cannot >>>>>> be rejected.


    If the system is too stupid to reject invalid input
    then it is too stupid. Ordinary logic is too stupid
    to even say the Liar Paradox that I what I invented
    minimal type theory.

    https://www.researchgate.net/
    publication/331859461_Minimal_Type_Theory_YACC_BNF

    LP := ~True(LP)
    (0) not  (1)
    (1) true (0) // cycle in digraph

    For ordinary first order logic it is possible to make a program that
    reads a text file and checks whether it is a vlaid proof. Is the same
    possible for your Minimal Type Theory?

    I don't need any of that.

    If your Minimal Type Theory does not do more than that then it is not
    publishable in a respectable journal.


    In other words if MTT has unlimited orders of logic
    this makes MTT inferior to FOL?

    It becomes inferior because you idea might take a finite logic system,
    and blow it up into an uncounably infinite logic system as you need to
    make EVERYTHING, all functions and such, into base objects.

    Basically, you try to fold everything into first order logic by making
    your "set of concepts" into a truely universal set, which just make you
    subcomb to the Russel Paradox.


    The prior version of MTT simply translated its expressions
    into directed graph of the evaluation sequence. A cycle
    in this evaluation sequence proved that the expression
    was ill-formed.


    Which just shows that you system is too limited as SOME cyclic
    expressions are evaluatable.


    https://www.researchgate.net/ publication/331859461_Minimal_Type_Theory_YACC_BNF

    LP := ~True(LP)
    00 ~    (01)
    01 True (00)

    All that I need to do
    is reject the Liar Paradox as invalid input because
    it specifies a cycle in its evaluation sequence.
    Tarski was simply far too stupid to this this.

    Then you needn't tell anybody about your rejection.




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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 08:21:35 2024
    On 9/12/24 12:08 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 6:30 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 7:44 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 2:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:46:59 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 13:03:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/9/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-08 13:24:56 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 4:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:54:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 11:17:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/6/2024 5:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 12:58:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/5/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:03:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 13:33:36 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    On 9/1/2024 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 03:04:43 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The remaining loophole is the lack of an exact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition
    of "sufficient reason".


    Ultimately sufficient reason is correct semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entailment from verified facts.

    The problem is "verified" facts: what is sufficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verification?


    Stipulated to be true is always sufficient:
    Cats are a know if animal.

    Insufficient for practtical purposes. You may stipulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
    nitroglycerine is not poison but it can kill you anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The point is that <is> the way the linguistic truth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually works.

    I've never seen or heard any linguist say so. The term has >>>>>>>>>>>>>> been used
    by DG Schwartz in 1985.


    This is similar to the analytic/synthetic distinction >>>>>>>>>>>>> yet unequivocal.

    I am redefining the term analytic truth to have a
    similar definition and calling this {linguistic truth}. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Expression of X of language L is proved true entirely >>>>>>>>>>>>> based on its meaning expressed in language L. Empirical >>>>>>>>>>>>> truth requires sense data from the sense organs to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> verified as true.

    Seems that you don't know about any linguist that has used >>>>>>>>>>>> the term.


    I INVENTED A BRAND NEW FREAKING TERM

    Is it really a new term if someone else (DG Schwartz) has used >>>>>>>>>> it before?
    Is it a term for a new concept or a new term for an old concept? >>>>>>>>>>

    A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a
    new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning >>>>>>>>> for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context. >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

    A stipulative definition is a temporary hack when it is not clear >>>>>>>> what the definition should be or when a need for a good definitino >>>>>>>> is not expected. A stipluative definition is not valid outside the >>>>>>>> opus or discussion where it is presented.

    *LINGUISTIC TRUTH IS STIPULATED TO MEAN*
    When expression X of language L is connected to its semantic >>>>>>>>> meaning M by a sequence of truth preserving operations P in
    language L then and only then is X true in L. That was the
    True(L,X) that Tarski "proved" cannot possibly exist.
    Copyright 2024 Olcott

    With that definition Tarski proved that linguistic truth is not >>>>>>>> identifiable.


    No he did not. Tarski's proof that begins with the Liar Paradox
    gets rejected at step (3).

    In the system Tarski was using (i.e. ordinary logic) a proof cannot >>>>>> be rejected.


    If the system is too stupid to reject invalid input
    then it is too stupid. Ordinary logic is too stupid
    to even say the Liar Paradox that I what I invented
    minimal type theory.

    https://www.researchgate.net/
    publication/331859461_Minimal_Type_Theory_YACC_BNF

    LP := ~True(LP)
    (0) not  (1)
    (1) true (0) // cycle in digraph

    For ordinary first order logic it is possible to make a program that
    reads a text file and checks whether it is a vlaid proof. Is the same
    possible for your Minimal Type Theory?


    I don't need any of that. All that I need to do
    is reject the Liar Paradox as invalid input because
    it specifies a cycle in its evaluation sequence.
    Tarski was simply far too stupid to this this.


    And thus prove you don't understand what you are talking about,

    Tarski understand that it creates a cycle,

    What about my dumbed down version?
    Is "a fish" true or false?

    Tarski was simply too stupid to understand
    that non-truth-bearers are a type mismatch error
    for any Boolean True(English, "a fish") predicate.

    Mankind with very rare exceptions is too stupid
    to know that the Liar Paradox is not a truth bearer.

    That other people are stupid provides zero evidence
    that I am incorrect.

    No, you are just proving your own stupidity.

    First The "L" is True(L, x) is supposed to be the langauge of a formal
    logic system, which "English" is not, so your argument BEGINS with a
    type error,

    Second, yes, if "a fish" isn't a statement in the language of the formal
    logic system True could "reject" it, but as Tarski proved (and you
    ignored because it is above your intelect) that the statement: "X in L
    is defined as ~True(L,x)" *IS* a statement expressible in the logic
    system, True isn't allowed to "reject" the statement, but if it isn't
    true (and it wouldn't if you were right that it can't have a truth
    maker) then True(L, x) would be false, but that makes x which is the
    logical negation of that result TRUE, and thus your claim that it didn't
    have a truth-maker incorrect, as the True predicate becomes its truth-maker.

    The issue is that once a system is powerful enough to allow the creation
    of self-referencing statement, it can not have a truth predicate.



    and that is why the truth predicate can't exist, because adding it to
    the system allows the cycle into the system as something that must be
    resolved, but can't.

    Until you can show the error in the prior section that he was refering
    to to show why that statement CAN'T be formed, you are just stuck
    being the stupid liar.

    Of course, the fact that you don't understand it gives your problems,
    but that just shows that your think it is ok to lie if you don't know
    the answer.

    Sorry, that is just the actual facts, even if you are too stupid to
    understand it.



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