On 3/17/2025 4:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 00:03 schreef olcott:
On 3/16/2025 3:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 16.mrt.2025 om 20:32 schreef olcott:
Read what I said: "all possible inputs". So, indeed, this input is
Only when the problem is defined to require H to return
a correct halt status value for an input that is actually
able to do the opposite of whatever value that H returns.
included. So we agree that no such algorithm exists.
Square_Root("This does not have a square root")
Irrelevant change of subject. No rebuttal.
I conclude that we agree that the answer on the question: "Does an
algorithm exist that for all possible inputs returns whether it
describes a halting program in direct execution" is 'No'.
The "describes" term is insufficiently precise and has always
been misconstrued.
Does an algorithm exist that correctly determines the halting
behavior of the HP counter-example input on the basis of the
behavior that this input SPECIFIES?
int DD()
{
int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
if (Halt_Status)
HERE: goto HERE;
return Halt_Status;
}
When the behavior of DD is measured by a simulation
of this input according to the full semantics of
this input including the fact that HHH does simulate
itself simulating DD and the measure of DD halting
is reaching its own"return" instruction final state.
THEN THE ANSWER IS YES
After HHH simulates DD twice it sees that DD calls the
same function twice in sequence with no conditional branch
instructions in DD that would prevent this from endlessly
repeating. That HHH stops simulating DD at this point does
not mean that DD reached its own final state and terminated
normally.
Is it so difficult for Olcott to express his (dis)agreement?
On 3/17/2025 11:37 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:There is a one-to-one mapping.
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 16:15 schreef olcott:There is NEVER EVER ANY DIRECT MAPPING from an executing process.
On 3/17/2025 4:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 00:03 schreef olcott:The "describes" term is insufficiently precise and has always been
On 3/16/2025 3:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:Irrelevant change of subject. No rebuttal.
Op 16.mrt.2025 om 20:32 schreef olcott:
Read what I said: "all possible inputs". So, indeed, this input is >>>>>> included. So we agree that no such algorithm exists.
Only when the problem is defined to require H to return a correct >>>>>>> halt status value for an input that is actually able to do the
opposite of whatever value that H returns.
Square_Root("This does not have a square root")
I conclude that we agree that the answer on the question: "Does an
algorithm exist that for all possible inputs returns whether it
describes a halting program in direct execution" is 'No'.
misconstrued.
Does an algorithm exist that correctly determines the halting behavior
of the HP counter-example input on the basis of the behavior that this
input SPECIFIES?
I asked the question for the behaviour that it specifies for direct
execution.
There is ONLY AT BEST A PROXY MAPPING from a finite string.
UTMs exist.int DD()
{
int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
if (Halt_Status)
HERE: goto HERE;
return Halt_Status;
}
When the behavior of DD is measured by a simulation of this input
according to the full semantics of this input including the fact that
HHH does simulate itself simulating DD and the measure of DD halting
is reaching its own"return" instruction final state.
THEN THE ANSWER IS YES
That is not what I asked. I asked about an algorithm that determines
the behaviour of a program for direct execution.
THIS IS ALWAYS IMPOSSIBLE. NO TM CAN EVER LOOK AT THE DIRECT EXECUTION
OF ANOTHER TM.
On 3/17/2025 11:37 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 16:15 schreef olcott:
On 3/17/2025 4:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 00:03 schreef olcott:
On 3/16/2025 3:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 16.mrt.2025 om 20:32 schreef olcott:
Read what I said: "all possible inputs". So, indeed, this input is >>>>>> included. So we agree that no such algorithm exists.
Only when the problem is defined to require H to return
a correct halt status value for an input that is actually
able to do the opposite of whatever value that H returns.
Square_Root("This does not have a square root")
Irrelevant change of subject. No rebuttal.
I conclude that we agree that the answer on the question: "Does an
algorithm exist that for all possible inputs returns whether it
describes a halting program in direct execution" is 'No'.
The "describes" term is insufficiently precise and has always
been misconstrued.
Does an algorithm exist that correctly determines the halting
behavior of the HP counter-example input on the basis of the
behavior that this input SPECIFIES?
I asked the question for the behaviour that it specifies for direct
execution.
There is NEVER EVER ANY DIRECT MAPPING from an executing process.
There is ONLY AT BEST A PROXY MAPPING from a finite string.
int DD()
{
int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
if (Halt_Status)
HERE: goto HERE;
return Halt_Status;
}
When the behavior of DD is measured by a simulation
of this input according to the full semantics of
this input including the fact that HHH does simulate
itself simulating DD and the measure of DD halting
is reaching its own"return" instruction final state.
THEN THE ANSWER IS YES
That is not what I asked. I asked about an algorithm that determines
the behaviour of a program for direct execution.
THIS IS ALWAYS IMPOSSIBLE. NO TM CAN EVER
LOOK AT THE DIRECT EXECUTION OF ANOTHER TM.
On 3/17/2025 4:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 00:03 schreef olcott:
On 3/16/2025 3:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 16.mrt.2025 om 20:32 schreef olcott:
Read what I said: "all possible inputs". So, indeed, this input is
Only when the problem is defined to require H to return
a correct halt status value for an input that is actually
able to do the opposite of whatever value that H returns.
included. So we agree that no such algorithm exists.
Square_Root("This does not have a square root")
Irrelevant change of subject. No rebuttal.
I conclude that we agree that the answer on the question: "Does an
algorithm exist that for all possible inputs returns whether it
describes a halting program in direct execution" is 'No'.
The "describes" term is insufficiently precise and has always
been misconstrued.
On 3/18/2025 8:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-03-17 15:15:12 +0000, olcott said:It is completely impossible for any TM to have any access to the direct execution of another TM thus any requirements that a halt decider report
On 3/17/2025 4:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 00:03 schreef olcott:
On 3/16/2025 3:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:Irrelevant change of subject. No rebuttal.
Op 16.mrt.2025 om 20:32 schreef olcott:
Read what I said: "all possible inputs". So, indeed, this input is >>>>>> included. So we agree that no such algorithm exists.
Only when the problem is defined to require H to return a correct >>>>>>> halt status value for an input that is actually able to do the
opposite of whatever value that H returns.
Square_Root("This does not have a square root")
I conclude that we agree that the answer on the question: "Does an
algorithm exist that for all possible inputs returns whether it
describes a halting program in direct execution" is 'No'.
The "describes" term is insufficiently precise and has always been
misconstrued.
It is precise ehough for the problem statement. A proposed solution
must include sufficiantly detailed instructions for writing the
descriptions.
in this are incorrect. The best that any TM can do is to report on the behavior that its finite string input specifies.
On 3/18/2025 10:14 AM, joes wrote:All of the time. There is nothing else that influences it.
Am Tue, 18 Mar 2025 09:47:04 -0500 schrieb olcott:Most if the time. NOT ALL OF THE TIME.
On 3/18/2025 8:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-03-17 15:15:12 +0000, olcott said:It is completely impossible for any TM to have any access to the
On 3/17/2025 4:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 00:03 schreef olcott:
On 3/16/2025 3:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:Irrelevant change of subject. No rebuttal.
Op 16.mrt.2025 om 20:32 schreef olcott:
Read what I said: "all possible inputs". So, indeed, this input >>>>>>>> is included. So we agree that no such algorithm exists.
Only when the problem is defined to require H to return a
correct halt status value for an input that is actually able to >>>>>>>>> do the opposite of whatever value that H returns.
Square_Root("This does not have a square root")
I conclude that we agree that the answer on the question: "Does an >>>>>> algorithm exist that for all possible inputs returns whether it
describes a halting program in direct execution" is 'No'.
The "describes" term is insufficiently precise and has always been
misconstrued.
It is precise ehough for the problem statement. A proposed solution
must include sufficiantly detailed instructions for writing the
descriptions.
direct execution of another TM thus any requirements that a halt
decider report in this are incorrect. The best that any TM can do is
to report on the behavior that its finite string input specifies.
You've argued yourself into another ridiculous assertion. The execution
of a TM is specified by its description.
On 3/18/2025 8:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-03-17 15:15:12 +0000, olcott said:
On 3/17/2025 4:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 00:03 schreef olcott:
On 3/16/2025 3:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 16.mrt.2025 om 20:32 schreef olcott:
Read what I said: "all possible inputs". So, indeed, this input is >>>>>> included. So we agree that no such algorithm exists.
Only when the problem is defined to require H to return
a correct halt status value for an input that is actually
able to do the opposite of whatever value that H returns.
Square_Root("This does not have a square root")
Irrelevant change of subject. No rebuttal.
I conclude that we agree that the answer on the question: "Does an
algorithm exist that for all possible inputs returns whether it
describes a halting program in direct execution" is 'No'.
The "describes" term is insufficiently precise and has always
been misconstrued.
It is precise ehough for the problem statement. A proposed solution must
include sufficiantly detailed instructions for writing the descriptions.
It is completely impossible for any TM to have any
access to the direct execution of another TM thus
any requirements that a halt decider report in this
are incorrect. The best that any TM can do is to
report on the behavior that its finite string input
specifies.
On 3/18/2025 8:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-03-17 15:15:12 +0000, olcott said:
On 3/17/2025 4:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 17.mrt.2025 om 00:03 schreef olcott:
On 3/16/2025 3:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Op 16.mrt.2025 om 20:32 schreef olcott:
Read what I said: "all possible inputs". So, indeed, this input is >>>>>> included. So we agree that no such algorithm exists.
Only when the problem is defined to require H to return
a correct halt status value for an input that is actually
able to do the opposite of whatever value that H returns.
Square_Root("This does not have a square root")
Irrelevant change of subject. No rebuttal.
I conclude that we agree that the answer on the question: "Does an
algorithm exist that for all possible inputs returns whether it
describes a halting program in direct execution" is 'No'.
The "describes" term is insufficiently precise and has always
been misconstrued.
It is precise ehough for the problem statement. A proposed solution must
include sufficiantly detailed instructions for writing the descriptions.
It is completely impossible for any TM to have any
access to the direct execution of another TM thus
any requirements that a halt decider report in this
are incorrect.
The best that any TM can do is to
report on the behavior that its finite string input
specifies.
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