• Re: HP counter-example INPUT cannot possibly exist

    From joes@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 18 15:57:15 2025
    Am Wed, 18 Jun 2025 09:39:02 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:

    As you respond to my question without answering it it is obvious
    that you don't see any proofs in your article.

    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any termination
    analyzer H that does the opposite of whatever value that H derives.
    The key element that all conventional HP proofs depend on cannot
    possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found that every
    conventional proof of the halting problem never provides an actual
    input that would do the opposite of whatever value that its partial
    halt decider (PHD) returns.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive specification of that
    test case.

    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input cannot even be constructed thus the proof itself never actually existed.
    In what sense? The code for DDD is clearly in your repository.

    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Jun 19 11:12:09 2025
    On 2025-06-18 14:39:02 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-12 15:18:30 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/12/2025 3:23 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-11 14:34:41 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/11/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-10 15:11:50 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/10/2025 6:15 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/9/25 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/9/2025 7:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/9/25 3:16 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
    "big fat ignorant liar" -- Damon

    There are no words.

    /Flibble

    Can you show me wrong?

    Or are you complaining about me telling him the truth? >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    What about this paper that I wrote?

    Severe anthropogenic climate change proven entirely with verifiable facts

    https://www.researchgate.net/
    publication/336568434_Severe_anthropogenic_climate_change_proven_entirely_with_verifiable_facts



    Which just shows you don't know the meaning of the word "prove". >>>>>>>>>>>
    What specifically do you believe is not proven?

    The article makes no attempt to prove anything.

    That is a dishonest or stupid thing to say.

    On what page and line there is the end of the conclusion of
    a proof?

    Maybe you don't know what a verified fact is?

    Irrepevant.

    That you don't know what a verified fact is, cannot
    possibly be more relevant.

    Indeed, but what is more relevant is that you don't know what a fact is. >>>>
    It means that when I conclusively
    prove that you are wrong you will still think that you are
    correct because you lack the basis for dividing correct
    from incorrect.

    Irrelevant as long as you don't prove anything.

    When I fully proven my claim and your lack of sufficient
    technical knowledge fails to understand this proof that
    is not any actual rebuttal at all.

    Be specific. The relevant techincal knoledge is the knowloedge
    of what a proof is and how one looks like. That knowledge
    I have, so I know that you have not presented any proof.
    I have not failed to understand what does not exist.

    A proof is any sequence of statements

    So far correct.

    that are necessarily true and thus impossibly false.

    But this is not. A proof starts with assumptions that may be true of
    false. Each statement that is not a definition, axiom, postulate,
    hypthesis or other assumption follows from some previous statements
    by an inference rule. The conclusion of a proof is the last statement
    of the sequence.

    Your question "What specifically do you believe is not
    proven?" was about proofs, not about facts.

    Facts are the ultimate ground-of-being maximum foundational
    basis of all proofs.

    No, they are not, just of proofs about the real world.

    So how many decades how you carefully studied the
    philosophical foundation of analytical truth?

    It doesn't take decades of study to learn that an analyitcal
    truth says nothing about the real world. That is one of the
    very first things teached and learned.

    That dogs are animals is an analytical truth
    that does say something about the real world.

    No, it is not. Vernacular terms "dog" and "animal" have aquired teir
    traditiona meanigs separately and at different times. The statement
    "Dogs are aninals" is known to be true from comparison of various
    things to the traditional meanings of those words.

    Like almost everyone you don't know much about
    analytical truth.

    As an analytincal truth says nothing about the real world the
    usefulness of any knowledge about it is limited.

    As you respond to my question without answering it it is
    obvious that you don't see any proofs in your article.

    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any
    termination analyzer H that does the opposite of
    whatever value that H derives. The key element that
    all conventional HP proofs depend on cannot possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found
    that every conventional proof of the halting problem
    never provides an actual input that would do the
    opposite of whatever value that its partial halt
    decider (PHD) returns.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive specification
    of that test case.

    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input
    cannot even be constructed thus the proof itself never
    actually existed.

    Depending on the style of the proof one can ither prove that
    the counter example exists or that if a halting decider exists
    then the caunter example exists, too, and otherwise none is
    needed.

    It is always the case that the computation the PHD
    is embedded within or the function that calls the
    PHD that does the opposite. It is never the input.

    Doesn't matter. Those proofs prove that for any Turing machine there
    is an input that proves that the decider is not a halt decider.

    *Counter-factual there never has been any such an input*

    It is proven that for every Turing machine there is a counter
    example. The proof also identifies what that counter example
    is.

    This may be difficult to understand.
    A lack of comprehension does not count as a rebuttal.

    That's right. You have no rebuttal but, lacking comprehension,
    you keep claiming that you have.

    When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ // *adapted from bottom of page 319*
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

    That is not a syntactically valid sentence and therefore does not
    say anything. The original sentence is meaningful but the "adaptation"
    did not preserve its meaning and meaningfulness.

    In particular it does not mean that:

    (a) Ĥ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
    (b) Ĥ invokes embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
    (c) embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
    (d) simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
    (e) simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ invokes simulated embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
    (f) simulated embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
    (g) goto (d) with one more level of simulation until embedded_H
    sees the repeating pattern and transitions to Ĥ.qn.

    ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
    reach its own ⟨Ĥ.qy⟩ state or final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
    thus can never do the opposite of whatever embedded_H decides. https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Jun 19 11:17:08 2025
    On 2025-06-18 16:05:33 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/18/2025 10:57 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 18 Jun 2025 09:39:02 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:

    As you respond to my question without answering it it is obvious >>>>>>>> that you don't see any proofs in your article.

    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any termination
    analyzer H that does the opposite of whatever value that H derives. >>>>>>> The key element that all conventional HP proofs depend on cannot >>>>>>> possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found that every
    conventional proof of the halting problem never provides an actual
    input that would do the opposite of whatever value that its partial
    halt decider (PHD) returns.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive specification of that
    test case.

    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input cannot even be
    constructed thus the proof itself never actually existed.
    In what sense? The code for DDD is clearly in your repository.

    There has never been any HP proof that has
    ever defined *AN ACTUAL INPUT* to a termination
    analyzer that can possibly do the opposite of
    whatever value that this termination analyzer
    determines.

    Of course a proof of the halting problem does not define anything
    for a termination alayzer. Termination anlyzers are not a relevant
    for any proof (or other discussion) about the halting problem.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joes@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 20 17:44:22 2025
    Am Fri, 20 Jun 2025 11:39:40 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 6/19/2025 3:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-18 14:39:02 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:

    As you respond to my question without answering it it is obvious >>>>>>>> that you don't see any proofs in your article.

    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any termination
    analyzer H that does the opposite of whatever value that H
    derives. The key element that all conventional HP proofs depend on >>>>>>> cannot possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found that every
    conventional proof of the halting problem never provides an actual
    input that would do the opposite of whatever value that its partial
    halt decider (PHD) returns.
    Only if that non-decider simulates.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive specification of that
    test case.
    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input cannot even be
    constructed thus the proof itself never actually existed.
    How can't it be constructed? You are certainly passing that input to HHH.

    Depending on the style of the proof one can ither prove that the
    counter example exists or that if a halting decider exists then the
    caunter example exists, too, and otherwise none is needed.

    No this is counter-factual.
    It has never been possible for *AN ACTUAL INPUT* to do the opposite of whatever value that it decider decides.
    Do you think that no programs halt when HHH is prepended? Do you think
    that HHH doesn't halt?

    int main()
    {
    DD(); // IS NOT AN ACTUAL INPUT TO THE
    } // HHH(DD) THAT THIS DD() CALLS.
    Then explain why you are not passing it to HHH for fuck's sake.

    In the C programming language it has always been impossible for the
    caller of a function to be an argument to this called function.
    No, C does not forbid recursion.

    The finite string of x86 machine language that is passed as an argument
    to HHH *is not exactly one and the same thing as the directly executed
    DD*
    DD does have the same "string". How else would you pass a program?

    Intuition would tell you that the behavior must be the same, yet
    empirical proof proves they are not the same.
    No, the definitions tell us the behaviour is the same; your intuition
    tells you HHH is correct.

    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Jun 21 11:20:42 2025
    On 2025-06-20 16:54:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/19/2025 3:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-18 16:05:33 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/18/2025 10:57 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 18 Jun 2025 09:39:02 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:

    As you respond to my question without answering it it is obvious >>>>>>>>>> that you don't see any proofs in your article.

    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any termination >>>>>>>>> analyzer H that does the opposite of whatever value that H derives. >>>>>>>>> The key element that all conventional HP proofs depend on cannot >>>>>>>>> possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found that every
    conventional proof of the halting problem never provides an actual >>>>>>> input that would do the opposite of whatever value that its partial >>>>>>> halt decider (PHD) returns.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive specification of that >>>>>> test case.

    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input cannot even be >>>>> constructed thus the proof itself never actually existed.
    In what sense? The code for DDD is clearly in your repository.

    There has never been any HP proof that has
    ever defined *AN ACTUAL INPUT* to a termination
    analyzer that can possibly do the opposite of
    whatever value that this termination analyzer
    determines.

    Of course a proof of the halting problem does not define anything
    for a termination alayzer. Termination anlyzers are not a relevant
    for any proof (or other discussion) about the halting problem.


    Simulating termination analyzer are equivalent to
    a partial halt deciders.

    If they are they should be called "simulating partial halt deciders".
    The term "termination analyzer" refers to a problem different from
    the halting problem.

    The halting problem is about questions about computations but
    the termination problem is about questions about programs.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Jun 21 11:27:54 2025
    On 2025-06-20 16:39:40 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/19/2025 3:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-18 14:39:02 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-12 15:18:30 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/12/2025 3:23 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-11 14:34:41 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/11/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-10 15:11:50 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/10/2025 6:15 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/9/25 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/9/2025 7:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/9/25 3:16 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
    "big fat ignorant liar" -- Damon

    There are no words.

    /Flibble

    Can you show me wrong?

    Or are you complaining about me telling him the truth? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    What about this paper that I wrote?

    Severe anthropogenic climate change proven entirely with verifiable facts

    https://www.researchgate.net/
    publication/336568434_Severe_anthropogenic_climate_change_proven_entirely_with_verifiable_facts



    Which just shows you don't know the meaning of the word "prove". >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    What specifically do you believe is not proven?

    The article makes no attempt to prove anything.

    That is a dishonest or stupid thing to say.

    On what page and line there is the end of the conclusion of >>>>>>>>>> a proof?

    Maybe you don't know what a verified fact is?

    Irrepevant.

    That you don't know what a verified fact is, cannot
    possibly be more relevant.

    Indeed, but what is more relevant is that you don't know what a fact is. >>>>>>
    It means that when I conclusively
    prove that you are wrong you will still think that you are
    correct because you lack the basis for dividing correct
    from incorrect.

    Irrelevant as long as you don't prove anything.

    When I fully proven my claim and your lack of sufficient
    technical knowledge fails to understand this proof that
    is not any actual rebuttal at all.

    Be specific. The relevant techincal knoledge is the knowloedge
    of what a proof is and how one looks like. That knowledge
    I have, so I know that you have not presented any proof.
    I have not failed to understand what does not exist.

    A proof is any sequence of statements

    So far correct.

    that are necessarily true and thus impossibly false.

    But this is not. A proof starts with assumptions that may be true of
    false. Each statement that is not a definition, axiom, postulate,
    hypthesis or other assumption follows from some previous statements
    by an inference rule. The conclusion of a proof is the last statement
    of the sequence.

    Some proofs begin with definitions instead of assumptions.

    Definitions often enable a clearer presentation of the assumptions
    and of the proof.

    Your question "What specifically do you believe is not
    proven?" was about proofs, not about facts.

    Facts are the ultimate ground-of-being maximum foundational
    basis of all proofs.

    No, they are not, just of proofs about the real world.

    So how many decades how you carefully studied the
    philosophical foundation of analytical truth?

    It doesn't take decades of study to learn that an analyitcal
    truth says nothing about the real world. That is one of the
    very first things teached and learned.

    That dogs are animals is an analytical truth
    that does say something about the real world.

    No, it is not. Vernacular terms "dog" and "animal" have aquired teir
    traditiona meanigs separately and at different times. The statement
    "Dogs are aninals" is known to be true from comparison of various
    things to the traditional meanings of those words.

    Like almost everyone you don't know much about
    analytical truth.

    As an analytincal truth says nothing about the real world the
    usefulness of any knowledge about it is limited.

    As you respond to my question without answering it it is
    obvious that you don't see any proofs in your article.

    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any
    termination analyzer H that does the opposite of
    whatever value that H derives. The key element that
    all conventional HP proofs depend on cannot possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found
    that every conventional proof of the halting problem
    never provides an actual input that would do the
    opposite of whatever value that its partial halt
    decider (PHD) returns.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive specification
    of that test case.

    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input
    cannot even be constructed thus the proof itself never
    actually existed.

    Depending on the style of the proof one can ither prove that
    the counter example exists or that if a halting decider exists
    then the caunter example exists, too, and otherwise none is
    needed.

    No this is counter-factual.
    It has never been possible for *AN ACTUAL INPUT* to do
    the opposite of whatever value that it decider decides.
    *For 90 years no one ever bothered to notice this*

    There is nothing impossible in Linz' construction of the
    counter example. If you think there is you could tell us
    the page, paragraph, and sentence in Linz' book that says
    someting impossible.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Jun 22 10:59:47 2025
    On 2025-06-21 15:49:30 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/21/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-20 16:54:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/19/2025 3:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-18 16:05:33 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/18/2025 10:57 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 18 Jun 2025 09:39:02 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:

    As you respond to my question without answering it it is obvious >>>>>>>>>>>> that you don't see any proofs in your article.

    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any termination >>>>>>>>>>> analyzer H that does the opposite of whatever value that H derives. >>>>>>>>>>> The key element that all conventional HP proofs depend on cannot >>>>>>>>>>> possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found that every
    conventional proof of the halting problem never provides an actual >>>>>>>>> input that would do the opposite of whatever value that its partial >>>>>>>>> halt decider (PHD) returns.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive specification of that >>>>>>>> test case.

    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input cannot even be >>>>>>> constructed thus the proof itself never actually existed.
    In what sense? The code for DDD is clearly in your repository.

    There has never been any HP proof that has
    ever defined *AN ACTUAL INPUT* to a termination
    analyzer that can possibly do the opposite of
    whatever value that this termination analyzer
    determines.

    Of course a proof of the halting problem does not define anything
    for a termination alayzer. Termination anlyzers are not a relevant
    for any proof (or other discussion) about the halting problem.


    Simulating termination analyzer are equivalent to
    a partial halt deciders.

    If they are they should be called "simulating partial halt deciders".

    That is too confusing for most of my reviewers.

    It is long but there is no evdence that it would be confusing. Those
    whose opinion is worth of attention know what "decider" means and
    what "halt decider means" and what "partial" means in this context,
    and they interprete the word "simulating" to mean that the algorithm
    involves simulation. If more clarification is needed you are free to
    write more clearly.

    Simulating termination analyzer is an existing
    term with the exact meaning that I am referring to.

    No, it is not. The exact meaning of "termination analyzer" means an
    analyzer that can analyze programs that take an input. Programs that
    don't take an input are an uninteresting marginal case. The word
    "simulating" does not affect that aspect of the meaning.

    The term "termination analyzer" refers to a problem different from
    the halting problem.

    Not at all.
    Google [termination analyzer versus halt decider]

    Googel does not find anyting authoritative with those words.

    The halting problem is about questions about computations but
    the termination problem is about questions about programs.

    In both cases the STA or the SPHD is required to determine
    the behavior specified by the *input* encoded as a sequence
    of state changes.

    No, a sequence of state changes is not required. Both require some
    description of an algorithm but an exact definition of state space
    and state changes is not required. A partial halt decider takes the
    same input as an universal Turing machine: an input that contains
    a description of an algrithm and a descrition of an input to that
    algorithm. Only if the decider is restricted to computations that
    all have the same input (e.g., empty tape) the description of the
    input is not needed. Conseqently, the meaning of "behaviour" is
    different for the two kinds of programs. For a partial halting
    decider it means what the algorithm specified by the input to the
    decider does with the input specified by the input to the decider.
    For a termination analyzer it means anything the algorithm specified
    by the input may do with any input it can be given. In both cases
    only one aspect of behaviour is required to be determined. For a
    halt decider it is whether the algorithm terminates with the
    specified input, for a termination analyzer it is whether the
    algorithm terminates with every possible input. The definitions
    neither require nor prohibit any other output.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Jun 23 09:55:26 2025
    On 2025-06-22 16:28:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/22/2025 2:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-21 15:49:30 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/21/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-20 16:54:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/19/2025 3:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-18 16:05:33 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/18/2025 10:57 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 18 Jun 2025 09:39:02 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:

    As you respond to my question without answering it it is obvious >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you don't see any proofs in your article.

    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any termination >>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer H that does the opposite of whatever value that H derives.
    The key element that all conventional HP proofs depend on cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found that every >>>>>>>>>>> conventional proof of the halting problem never provides an actual >>>>>>>>>>> input that would do the opposite of whatever value that its partial >>>>>>>>>>> halt decider (PHD) returns.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive specification of that
    test case.

    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input cannot even be >>>>>>>>> constructed thus the proof itself never actually existed.
    In what sense? The code for DDD is clearly in your repository.

    There has never been any HP proof that has
    ever defined *AN ACTUAL INPUT* to a termination
    analyzer that can possibly do the opposite of
    whatever value that this termination analyzer
    determines.

    Of course a proof of the halting problem does not define anything
    for a termination alayzer. Termination anlyzers are not a relevant >>>>>> for any proof (or other discussion) about the halting problem.


    Simulating termination analyzer are equivalent to
    a partial halt deciders.

    If they are they should be called "simulating partial halt deciders".

    That is too confusing for most of my reviewers.

    It is long but there is no evdence that it would be confusing. Those

    Most reviewers here don't even understand that halting
    is only defined as reaching a final halt state.

    It seems that you can't understand what others write as a response.
    You never show any signs of understanding.

    If others don't understand your writing as intended then your writing
    is not clear enough. People who do not understand some detail often
    ask for clarifications but you never clarify what is asked.

    It seems that you don't know whether others understand and therefore
    that your claims that someone doesn't understand are not based on
    facts.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Jun 24 11:08:29 2025
    On 2025-06-23 15:26:33 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/23/2025 1:55 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-22 16:28:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/22/2025 2:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-21 15:49:30 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/21/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-20 16:54:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/19/2025 3:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-18 16:05:33 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/18/2025 10:57 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 18 Jun 2025 09:39:02 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:

    As you respond to my question without answering it it is obvious
    that you don't see any proofs in your article.

    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any termination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer H that does the opposite of whatever value that H derives.
    The key element that all conventional HP proofs depend on cannot
    possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found that every >>>>>>>>>>>>> conventional proof of the halting problem never provides an actual
    input that would do the opposite of whatever value that its partial
    halt decider (PHD) returns.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive specification of that
    test case.

    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input cannot even be
    constructed thus the proof itself never actually existed. >>>>>>>>>> In what sense? The code for DDD is clearly in your repository. >>>>>>>>>
    There has never been any HP proof that has
    ever defined *AN ACTUAL INPUT* to a termination
    analyzer that can possibly do the opposite of
    whatever value that this termination analyzer
    determines.

    Of course a proof of the halting problem does not define anything >>>>>>>> for a termination alayzer. Termination anlyzers are not a relevant >>>>>>>> for any proof (or other discussion) about the halting problem. >>>>>>>>

    Simulating termination analyzer are equivalent to
    a partial halt deciders.

    If they are they should be called "simulating partial halt deciders". >>>>>
    That is too confusing for most of my reviewers.

    It is long but there is no evdence that it would be confusing. Those

    Most reviewers here don't even understand that halting
    is only defined as reaching a final halt state.

    It seems that you can't understand what others write as a response.
    You never show any signs of understanding.

    If others don't understand your writing as intended then your writing
    is not clear enough. People who do not understand some detail often
    ask for clarifications but you never clarify what is asked.

    I stop at their first counter-factual mistake because
    people here have a very hard time fully addressing one
    single point.

    They keep flitting back and forth over many different
    points to permanently avoid fully addressing one single
    point.

    That is typical to USENET discussions. But you are free to stick
    to whichever point you want. If you can't that's your problem.

    Every time anyone makes a provably counter-factual
    statement it is certain that they are not understanding.

    No, it is not. A counter-factual hypothesis is a valid tool of
    rational thinking.

    You focus too much on understanding. More important is that you write
    in a way that can be understood. Too often your writing style looks
    like your intent is that the reader fails to notice that your words
    don't make sense.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 25 09:57:05 2025
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:48 schreef olcott:
    On 6/24/2025 3:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-23 15:26:33 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/23/2025 1:55 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-22 16:28:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/22/2025 2:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-21 15:49:30 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/21/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-20 16:54:32 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/19/2025 3:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-18 16:05:33 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/18/2025 10:57 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Wed, 18 Jun 2025 09:39:02 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 14:44:47 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/15/2025 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-06-13 15:33:45 +0000, olcott said:
    On 6/13/2025 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:

    As you respond to my question without answering it it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is obvious
    that you don't see any proofs in your article. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    It is a fact that there is no actual input D to any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination
    analyzer H that does the opposite of whatever value >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H derives.
    The key element that all conventional HP proofs depend >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on cannot
    possibly exist.

    Nonsense is not a fact.

    After studying these things for 22 years I found that every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conventional proof of the halting problem never provides >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an actual
    input that would do the opposite of whatever value that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its partial
    halt decider (PHD) returns.

    The core part of those proofs is a constructive
    specification of that
    test case.

    Yet no one ever noticed that the counter-example input >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot even be
    constructed thus the proof itself never actually existed. >>>>>>>>>>>> In what sense? The code for DDD is clearly in your repository. >>>>>>>>>>>
    There has never been any HP proof that has
    ever defined *AN ACTUAL INPUT* to a termination
    analyzer that can possibly do the opposite of
    whatever value that this termination analyzer
    determines.

    Of course a proof of the halting problem does not define anything >>>>>>>>>> for a termination alayzer. Termination anlyzers are not a
    relevant
    for any proof (or other discussion) about the halting problem. >>>>>>>>>>

    Simulating termination analyzer are equivalent to
    a partial halt deciders.

    If they are they should be called "simulating partial halt
    deciders".

    That is too confusing for most of my reviewers.

    It is long but there is no evdence that it would be confusing. Those >>>>>
    Most reviewers here don't even understand that halting
    is only defined as reaching a final halt state.

    It seems that you can't understand what others write as a response.
    You never show any signs of understanding.

    If others don't understand your writing as intended then your writing
    is not clear enough. People who do not understand some detail often
    ask for clarifications but you never clarify what is asked.

    I stop at their first counter-factual mistake because
    people here have a very hard time fully addressing one
    single point.

    They keep flitting back and forth over many different
    points to permanently avoid fully addressing one single
    point.

    That is typical to USENET discussions. But you are free to stick
    to whichever point you want. If you can't that's your problem.

    Every time anyone makes a provably counter-factual
    statement it is certain that they are not understanding.

    No, it is not. A counter-factual hypothesis is a valid tool of
    rational thinking.

    You focus too much on understanding. More important is that you write
    in a way that can be understood. Too often your writing style looks
    like your intent is that the reader fails to notice that your words
    don't make sense.


    void DDD()
    {
      HHH(DDD);
      return;
    }

    *This is the question that HHH(DDD) correctly answers*
    Can DDD correctly simulated by any termination analyzer
    HHH that can possibly exist reach its own "return" statement
    final halt state?

    Since any first year CS student can see that DDD
    simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
    "return" statement final halt state, then everyone
    not seeing this has proven to have insufficient
    technical competence to evaluate my work.


    Why repeating the obvious? Everyone here understands that HHH fails to
    reach the end of the simulation, where other simulators have no problem
    to reach the end of exactly the same input.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Jun 26 09:24:52 2025
    On 2025-06-25 14:04:47 +0000, olcott said:

    On 6/25/2025 2:57 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:48 schreef olcott:

    *This is the question that HHH(DDD) correctly answers*
    Can DDD correctly simulated by any termination analyzer
    HHH that can possibly exist reach its own "return" statement
    final halt state?

    Since any first year CS student can see that DDD
    simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
    "return" statement final halt state, then everyone
    not seeing this has proven to have insufficient
    technical competence to evaluate my work.


    Why repeating the obvious? Everyone here understands that HHH fails to
    reach the end of the simulation, where other simulators have no problem
    to reach the end of exactly the same input.

    ChatGPT totally understands that HHH(DDD) correctly
    determines that DDD does not halt.

    *The Function DDD() In Principle*
    The core issue is that DDD() is recursively calling
    itself through HHH(DDD), which would lead to infinite
    recursion if allowed to continue. HHH detects this
    pattern and predicts that DDD() would not halt on its own.

    Therefore, HHH correctly reports that DDD() does not
    halt, even though in the actual execution, it halts
    because HHH steps in and prevents the infinite recursion.

    *ChatGPT analysis of HHH(DDD)* https://chatgpt.com/share/67158ec6-3398-8011-98d1-41198baa29f2

    To agree that the wrong answer is correct shows lack of understanding.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 26 11:08:11 2025
    Op 25.jun.2025 om 16:04 schreef olcott:
    On 6/25/2025 2:57 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:48 schreef olcott:

    *This is the question that HHH(DDD) correctly answers*
    Can DDD correctly simulated by any termination analyzer
    HHH that can possibly exist reach its own "return" statement
    final halt state?

    Since any first year CS student can see that DDD
    simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
    "return" statement final halt state, then everyone
    not seeing this has proven to have insufficient
    technical competence to evaluate my work.


    Why repeating the obvious? Everyone here understands that HHH fails to
    reach the end of the simulation, where other simulators have no
    problem to reach the end of exactly the same input.

    ChatGPT totally understands that HHH(DDD) correctly
    determines that DDD does not halt.

      *The Function DDD() In Principle*
       The core issue is that DDD() is recursively calling
       itself through HHH(DDD), which would lead to infinite
       recursion if allowed to continue. HHH detects this
       pattern and predicts that DDD() would not halt on its own.

       Therefore, HHH correctly reports that DDD() does not
       halt, even though in the actual execution, it halts
       because HHH steps in and prevents the infinite recursion.

    *ChatGPT analysis of HHH(DDD)* https://chatgpt.com/share/67158ec6-3398-8011-98d1-41198baa29f2

    Not a rebuttal.
    It is well known that ChatGPT often gives incorrect answers. https://help.openai.com/en/articles/8313428-does-chatgpt-tell-the-truth

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)