• installation-guide: simplify RAM/disk space requirements

    From Holger Wansing@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 4 21:10:01 2023
    Hi all,

    as a follow-up to #1032940, I think we have some open points in the doc regarding
    RAM/disk space requirements.

    In the installation-guide, we have 3 places referring to needed RAM/disk space size, and unfortunately they are not very well conform with each other:
    (at least for the end-user POV, who does not know all the details and tricks)


    chapter 2:
    https://d-i.debian.org/doc/installation-guide/en.amd64/ch02s05.html
    says
    "You must have at least 780MB of memory and 1160MB of hard disk space to perform a normal installation."



    chapter 3:
    https://d-i.debian.org/doc/installation-guide/en.amd64/ch03s04.html
    says
    "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements

    Install Type RAM (minimum) RAM (recommended) Hard Drive
    No desktop 256 megabytes 512 megabytes 4 gigabytes
    With Desktop 1 gigabytes 2 gigabytes 10 gigabytes "



    And chapter D.2: https://d-i.debian.org/doc/installation-guide/en.amd64/apds02.html
    has a table for different tasks:

    "Task Installed size (MB) Download size (MB) Space needed to install (MB)
    Desktop environment
    • GNOME (default) 3216 859 4075
    • KDE Plasma 4584 1316 5900
    • Xfce 2509 683 3192
    • LXDE 2539 693 3232
    • MATE 2851 762 3613
    • Cinnamon 4676 1324 6000
    Web server 85 19 104
    SSH server 2 1 3 "





    I remember some reports from users in the past, saying that the values in chapter 2 are totally unrealistic, and the answer from debian-boot was
    "Well, those values are minimal values over all archs", so a light-weight
    arch could work with those values indeed. But for most users those values
    are not real-world.
    But hey, for those people, there is the link to chapter 3:
    "Note that these are fairly minimal numbers. For more realistic figures,
    see Section 3.4, “Meeting Minimum Hardware Requirements”.
    So, if chapter 2 advise is of no value at all, why not skip it completely?
    Or make it compliant with chapter 3. ???



    I would like to get this into a better shape, so that the different chapters are talking "with the same speach" (and don't conflict).


    To get this done, I propose to change (or unify) the values in chapter 2 + 3, so
    that they show a consistent picture.


    I did some test installations with QEMU on amd64.
    The results are: Installing with 256 MB of RAM fails, the installer
    stopps with "320 MB RAM is required"

    Installing with 512 MB of RAM switches to low-memory
    mode installer, but the installation succeeds.


    So I propose to change chapter 3 values like

    Install Type RAM (minimum) RAM (recommended) Hard Drive
    - No desktop 256 megabytes 512 megabytes 4 gigabytes
    + No desktop 512 megabytes 1 gigabytes 4 gigabytes
    With Desktop 1 gigabytes 2 gigabytes 10 gigabytes




    So:

    1.
    To have chapter 2 compliant with chapter 3 (regarding RAM size)

    and
    2.
    since we have changed the minimal harddisk value to 4 gigabytes in
    bug#1032940 (harddisk size)

    and
    3.
    since users will probably misinterpret the phrase of "a normal installation" here
    (What is a *normal* installation? What is *normal* in this case? I would skip the *normal* here and just talk of *an installation*. )

    I would propose to change chapter 2
    like

    - You must have at least 780MB of memory and 1160MB of hard disk space to
    - perform a normal installation."
    + You must have at least 512MB of memory and 4GB of hard disk space to
    + perform an installation."




    Comments?

    Holger



    --
    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org>
    PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

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  • From Samuel Thibault@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 4 23:10:01 2023
    Holger Wansing, le ven. 04 août 2023 21:03:38 +0200, a ecrit:
    So I propose to change chapter 3 values like

    Install Type RAM (minimum) RAM (recommended) Hard Drive
    - No desktop 256 megabytes 512 megabytes 4 gigabytes
    + No desktop 512 megabytes 1 gigabytes 4 gigabytes
    With Desktop 1 gigabytes 2 gigabytes 10 gigabytes




    I would propose to change chapter 2
    like

    - You must have at least 780MB of memory and 1160MB of hard disk space to
    - perform a normal installation."
    + You must have at least 512MB of memory and 4GB of hard disk space to
    + perform an installation."




    Comments?

    That looks good to me indeed.

    Samuel

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Holger Wansing@21:1/5 to Samuel Thibault on Sat Aug 5 20:50:02 2023
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    Hi,

    Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> wrote (Fri, 4 Aug 2023 23:06:11 +0200):
    Holger Wansing, le ven. 04 aot 2023 21:03:38 +0200, a ecrit:
    So I propose to change chapter 3 values like

    Install Type RAM (minimum) RAM (recommended) Hard Drive
    - No desktop 256 megabytes 512 megabytes 4 gigabytes
    + No desktop 512 megabytes 1 gigabytes 4 gigabytes
    With Desktop 1 gigabytes 2 gigabytes 10 gigabytes




    I would propose to change chapter 2
    like

    - You must have at least 780MB of memory and 1160MB of hard disk space to - perform a normal installation."
    + You must have at least 512MB of memory and 4GB of hard disk space to
    + perform an installation."




    Comments?

    That looks good to me indeed.

    Now looking in the doc source, I see that the "780MB" value from above is architecture-dependent too.
    While 780MB seems realistic for amd64 to me, I wonder if the other values can be up-to-date:

    amd64:minimum_memory=780
    arm64:minimum_memory=260
    armel:minimum_memory=80
    armhf:minimum_memory=190
    i386:minimum_memory=485
    mips:minimum_memory=85
    mips64el:minimum_memory=345
    mipsel:minimum_memory=170
    ppc64el:minimum_memory=64
    s390x:minimum_memory=44

    In the most eye-catching case of s390x, my proposal would mean, to change
    the value in the guide from 44 to 512MB !
    That leads to the question, if the new situation after my changing would be wrong, or if the doc was wrong in the past?
    And, if a generic value for all archs is realistic and makes sense at all?


    My current plan would boil down to the attached patch.


    Holger


    --
    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org>
    PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

    diff --git a/build/entities/common.ent b/build/entities/common.ent
    index 1e58745e1..94c20298b 100644
    --- a/build/entities/common.ent
    +++ b/build/entities/common.ent
    @@ -66,8 +66,12 @@
    <!ENTITY BTN-CANCEL "<guibutton>Cancel</guibutton>">
    <!ENTITY BTN-GOBACK "<guibutton>Go Back</guibutton>">

    -<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' -->
    +<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' and 'gigabytes' -->
    <!ENTITY notation-megabytes "MB">
    +<!ENTITY notation-gigabytes "GB">
    +
    +<!-- recommended RAM size (generic for all archs) -->
    +<!ENTITY minimum-ram-generic "512&notation-megabytes;">

    <!-- minimum hard disk size for base system -->
    <!-- As measured just before reboot (i.e. before the cleanup script drops
    @@ -75,7 +79,7 @@
    cleanup, plus minimal ~150MB work space included.
    Also update the value in debian-installer/build/boot/x86/f2.txt

    -<!ENTITY minimum-fs-size "1160&notation-megabyt
  • From Samuel Thibault@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 6 14:40:02 2023
    Holger Wansing, le sam. 05 août 2023 20:46:27 +0200, a ecrit:
    Now looking in the doc source, I see that the "780MB" value from above is architecture-dependent too.

    Ah, yes, that's part of the lowmem testing.

    While 780MB seems realistic for amd64 to me, I wonder if the other values can be up-to-date:

    amd64:minimum_memory=780
    arm64:minimum_memory=260
    armel:minimum_memory=80
    armhf:minimum_memory=190
    i386:minimum_memory=485
    mips:minimum_memory=85
    mips64el:minimum_memory=345
    mipsel:minimum_memory=170
    ppc64el:minimum_memory=64
    s390x:minimum_memory=44

    In the most eye-catching case of s390x, my proposal would mean, to change
    the value in the guide from 44 to 512MB !
    That leads to the question, if the new situation after my changing would be wrong, or if the doc was wrong in the past?

    The doc probably just ended up wrong by just not getting updated,
    because we don't have people who both care about updating them, and have
    access to the hardware or know the qemu tricks to test all archs.

    I see that in the lowmem package,
    bbb4ed4c4da20d585cf30ceba9f0987173d3ac70 raised the default levels from 32MB/64MB to 120MB/155MB, that being the minimum numbers that were
    actually seen to work on at least some arch.

    And, if a generic value for all archs is realistic and makes sense at all?

    Probably not, as seen in the values in the lowmem package.

    Samuel

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Holger Wansing@21:1/5 to Samuel Thibault on Tue Aug 8 00:10:01 2023
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    Hi again,

    Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> wrote (Sun, 6 Aug 2023 14:32:22 +0200):
    Holger Wansing, le sam. 05 aot 2023 20:46:27 +0200, a ecrit:
    Now looking in the doc source, I see that the "780MB" value from above is architecture-dependent too.

    Ah, yes, that's part of the lowmem testing.

    While 780MB seems realistic for amd64 to me, I wonder if the other values can
    be up-to-date:

    amd64:minimum_memory=780
    arm64:minimum_memory=260
    armel:minimum_memory=80
    armhf:minimum_memory=190
    i386:minimum_memory=485
    mips:minimum_memory=85
    mips64el:minimum_memory=345
    mipsel:minimum_memory=170
    ppc64el:minimum_memory=64
    s390x:minimum_memory=44

    In the most eye-catching case of s390x, my proposal would mean, to change the value in the guide from 44 to 512MB !
    That leads to the question, if the new situation after my changing would be
    wrong, or if the doc was wrong in the past?

    The doc probably just ended up wrong by just not getting updated,
    because we don't have people who both care about updating them, and have access to the hardware or know the qemu tricks to test all archs.

    I see that in the lowmem package,
    bbb4ed4c4da20d585cf30ceba9f0987173d3ac70 raised the default levels from 32MB/64MB to 120MB/155MB, that being the minimum numbers that were
    actually seen to work on at least some arch.

    Ok, I have now included those changes into my patch, to get the numbers up-to-date for all archs.

    That is:

    amd64:minimum_memory_strict=350
    amd64:minimum_memory=780

    arm64:minimum_memory_strict=245
    arm64:minimum_memory=260

    armel:minimum_memory_strict=140
    armel:minimum_memory=190

    armhf:minimum_memory_strict=140
    armhf:minimum_memory=190

    i386:minimum_memory_strict=285
    i386:minimum_memory=485

    mips64el:minimum_memory_strict=200
    mips64el:minimum_memory=345

    mipsel:minimum_memory_strict=160
    mipsel:minimum_memory=170

    ppc64el:minimum_memory_strict=256
    ppc64el:minimum_memory=500

    s390x:minimum_memory_strict=120
    s390x:minimum_memory=155

    See patch.


    And, if a generic value for all archs is realistic and makes sense at all?

    Probably not, as seen in the values in the lowmem package.

    I think I found a reasonable solution.

    Current situation is:

    We have two sorts of numbers for RAM size:

    a) some kind of rough values, identical for all archs. These are just
    subjective values, rounded up to the next bigger RAM modules you can buy
    (current values can be found in
    "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements" at
    https://d-i.debian.org/manual/en.amd64/ch03s04.html )
    These are only rough recommendations, as in "we **recommend** X MB".
    And this chapter 3.4 also mentions, that these recommendations can well be
    underrun by the second sort of values:
    b) these are values based on meassurements during lowmem testing. They are
    different over the archs, and in the current text they are considered as
    some kind of strict requirement, as in "you **need** at least X MB" values.
    --> Compare this to the "we **recommend** X MB" values from a) !




    Taking all this as a basis, I would like to propose the following:


    1. in chapter 2 (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch02s05.html)
    which is about hardware requirements, just mention the minimal rough
    recommended values from a) which says something like "512MB" or "1GB",
    corresponding to RAM modules available from your favorite hardware store.

    2. People who want to try to go with lower values, are guided to
    chapter 3 (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch03s04.html),
    where they find the values from b) based on lowmem tests, which contain
    the "absolute minimum values", drawing the baseline that cannot be underrun.
    Note, that this page is different, depending on arch!

    3. Move all the constraints / advanced infos like
    - installer should automatically do memory-saving tricks on low-memory systems"
    - warning, when lowmem levels are untested for some archs
    - note, that graphical installer images need more RAM
    from chapter 2 to 3, where they fit better: That's not hardware (which would
    be chapter 2), but how the software deals with the available hardware (so
    that's chapter 3).

    4. I moved the values for "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements"
    from hardcoded values to entities, to ease changings on this in the future
    (especially when looking at translations).

    5. I bumped the recommended RAM size values from a)
    from
    256MB (minimum) + 512MB (recommended)
    to
    512MB (minimum) + 1G (recommended)



    All the resulting html files, separated for all archs can be found on https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/

    The interesting chapters are "Memory and Disk Space Requirements" in chapter 2 and "Meeting Minimum Hardware Requirements" in chapter 3.


    Sorry, if this is kind of a chaotic thread; the issue grew bigger than I
    had expected.



    Holger


    --
    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org>
    PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

    diff --git a/build/arch-options/armel b/build/arch-options/armel
    index d17df5114..1598edb87 100644
    --- a/build/arch-options/armel
    +++ b/build/arch-options/armel
    @@ -4,23 +4,23 @@

    # Note that we keep "arm" as archspec (and thus also for conditions)
    # and also continue to use "arm" for arch-specific XML-files in order
    # to minimize impact on translations.

    archspec="arm;armel;not-x86;not-s390;not-powerpc"
    arch_listname="arm"
    arch_porturl="arm"
    # TODO: update
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory_strict=32
    +minimum_memory_strict=140
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory=80
    +minimum_memory=190
    # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below
    smp_config_section="N/A"
    smp_config_option="N/A"

    # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition'
    # in the build scripts
    fdisk="fdisk.txt;cfdisk.txt"
    ne
  • From Samuel Thibault@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 8 00:20:01 2023
    Hello,

    This looks reasonable, thanks!

    Samuel

    Holger Wansing, le mar. 08 août 2023 00:06:14 +0200, a ecrit:
    Hi again,

    Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> wrote (Sun, 6 Aug 2023 14:32:22 +0200):
    Holger Wansing, le sam. 05 août 2023 20:46:27 +0200, a ecrit:
    Now looking in the doc source, I see that the "780MB" value from above is architecture-dependent too.

    Ah, yes, that's part of the lowmem testing.

    While 780MB seems realistic for amd64 to me, I wonder if the other values can
    be up-to-date:

    amd64:minimum_memory=780
    arm64:minimum_memory=260
    armel:minimum_memory=80
    armhf:minimum_memory=190
    i386:minimum_memory=485
    mips:minimum_memory=85
    mips64el:minimum_memory=345
    mipsel:minimum_memory=170
    ppc64el:minimum_memory=64
    s390x:minimum_memory=44

    In the most eye-catching case of s390x, my proposal would mean, to change the value in the guide from 44 to 512MB !
    That leads to the question, if the new situation after my changing would be
    wrong, or if the doc was wrong in the past?

    The doc probably just ended up wrong by just not getting updated,
    because we don't have people who both care about updating them, and have access to the hardware or know the qemu tricks to test all archs.

    I see that in the lowmem package,
    bbb4ed4c4da20d585cf30ceba9f0987173d3ac70 raised the default levels from 32MB/64MB to 120MB/155MB, that being the minimum numbers that were
    actually seen to work on at least some arch.

    Ok, I have now included those changes into my patch, to get the numbers up-to-date for all archs.

    That is:

    amd64:minimum_memory_strict=350
    amd64:minimum_memory=780

    arm64:minimum_memory_strict=245
    arm64:minimum_memory=260

    armel:minimum_memory_strict=140
    armel:minimum_memory=190

    armhf:minimum_memory_strict=140
    armhf:minimum_memory=190

    i386:minimum_memory_strict=285
    i386:minimum_memory=485

    mips64el:minimum_memory_strict=200
    mips64el:minimum_memory=345

    mipsel:minimum_memory_strict=160
    mipsel:minimum_memory=170

    ppc64el:minimum_memory_strict=256
    ppc64el:minimum_memory=500

    s390x:minimum_memory_strict=120
    s390x:minimum_memory=155

    See patch.


    And, if a generic value for all archs is realistic and makes sense at all?

    Probably not, as seen in the values in the lowmem package.

    I think I found a reasonable solution.

    Current situation is:

    We have two sorts of numbers for RAM size:

    a) some kind of rough values, identical for all archs. These are just
    subjective values, rounded up to the next bigger RAM modules you can buy
    (current values can be found in
    "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements" at
    https://d-i.debian.org/manual/en.amd64/ch03s04.html )
    These are only rough recommendations, as in "we **recommend** X MB".
    And this chapter 3.4 also mentions, that these recommendations can well be
    underrun by the second sort of values:
    b) these are values based on meassurements during lowmem testing. They are
    different over the archs, and in the current text they are considered as
    some kind of strict requirement, as in "you **need** at least X MB" values.
    --> Compare this to the "we **recommend** X MB" values from a) !




    Taking all this as a basis, I would like to propose the following:


    1. in chapter 2 (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch02s05.html)
    which is about hardware requirements, just mention the minimal rough
    recommended values from a) which says something like "512MB" or "1GB",
    corresponding to RAM modules available from your favorite hardware store.

    2. People who want to try to go with lower values, are guided to
    chapter 3 (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch03s04.html),
    where they find the values from b) based on lowmem tests, which contain
    the "absolute minimum values", drawing the baseline that cannot be underrun.
    Note, that this page is different, depending on arch!

    3. Move all the constraints / advanced infos like
    - installer should automatically do memory-saving tricks on low-memory systems"
    - warning, when lowmem levels are untested for some archs
    - note, that graphical installer images need more RAM
    from chapter 2 to 3, where they fit better: That's not hardware (which would
    be chapter 2), but how the software deals with the available hardware (so
    that's chapter 3).

    4. I moved the values for "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements"
    from hardcoded values to entities, to ease changings on this in the future
    (especially when looking at translations).

    5. I bumped the recommended RAM size values from a)
    from
    256MB (minimum) + 512MB (recommended)
    to
    512MB (minimum) + 1G (recommended)



    All the resulting html files, separated for all archs can be found on https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/

    The interesting chapters are "Memory and Disk Space Requirements" in chapter 2
    and "Meeting Minimum Hardware Requirements" in chapter 3.


    Sorry, if this is kind of a chaotic thread; the issue grew bigger than I
    had expected.



    Holger


    --
    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org>
    PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

    diff --git a/build/arch-options/armel b/build/arch-options/armel
    index d17df5114..1598edb87 100644
    --- a/build/arch-options/armel
    +++ b/build/arch-options/armel
    @@ -4,23 +4,23 @@

    # Note that we keep "arm" as archspec (and thus also for conditions)
    # and also continue to use "arm" for arch-specific XML-files in order
    # to minimize impact on translations.

    archspec="arm;armel;not-x86;not-s390;not-powerpc"
    arch_listname="arm"
    arch_porturl="arm"
    # TODO: update
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory_strict=32
    +minimum_memory_strict=140
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory=80
    +minimum_memory=190
    # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below
    smp_config_section="N/A"
    smp_config_option="N/A"

    # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition'
    # in the build scripts
    fdisk="fdisk.txt;cfdisk.txt"
    network="supports-tftp;supports-rarp;supports-bootp;supports-nfsroot"
    boot=""
    frontend="newt;not-gtk"
    diff --git a/build/arch-options/ppc64el b/build/arch-options/ppc64el
    index 2162cac4f..f07eb97de 100644
    --- a/build/arch-options/ppc64el
    +++ b/build/arch-options/ppc64el
    @@ -1,22 +1,22 @@
    # This file contains architecture specific variables for
    # the 'ppc64el' architecture
    # It is sourced by the build scripts

    archspec="ppc64el;not-s390;not-x86"
    arch_listname="powerpc"
    arch_porturl="powerpc"
    # TODO: update
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory_strict=32
    +minimum_memory_strict=256
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory=64
    +minimum_memory=500
    # This is coming from the rootskel package, S60frontend
    minimum_memory_gtk=800
    # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below
    smp_config_section="Processor support"
    smp_config_option="Symmetric multi-processing support"

    # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition'
    # in the build scripts
    fdisk="fdisk.txt;cfdisk.txt"
    network="supports-tftp;supports-bootp;supports-nfsroot"
    diff --git a/build/arch-options/s390x b/build/arch-options/s390x
    index 7dcac7a73..8647fcc71 100644
    --- a/build/arch-options/s390x
    +++ b/build/arch-options/s390x
    @@ -4,23 +4,23 @@

    # Note that we keep "s390" as archspec (and thus also for conditions)
    # and also continue to use "s390" for arch-specific XML-files in order
    # to minimize impact on translations.

    archspec="s390;not-powerpc;not-x86"
    arch_listname="s390"
    arch_porturl="s390"
    # TODO: update
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory_strict=32
    +minimum_memory_strict=120
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory=44
    +minimum_memory=155
    # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below
    smp_config_section="Processor type and features"
    smp_config_option="Symmetric multi-processing support"

    # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition'
    # in the build scripts
    fdisk="fdasd.txt;dasdfmt.txt"
    network=""
    boot=""
    frontend="not-newt;not-gtk"
    diff --git a/build/entities/common.ent b/build/entities/common.ent
    index 1e58745e1..f7b7f774c 100644
    --- a/build/entities/common.ent
    +++ b/build/entities/common.ent
    @@ -59,30 +59,39 @@
    <!ENTITY escapekey "<keycap>Esc</keycap>">
    <!ENTITY tabkey "<keycap>Tab</keycap>">
    <!ENTITY spacekey "<keycap>Space</keycap>">
    <!ENTITY shiftkey "<keycap>Shift</keycap>">
    <!ENTITY MSG-YES "<userinput>Yes</userinput>">
    <!ENTITY MSG-NO "<userinput>No</userinput>">
    <!ENTITY BTN-CONT "<guibutton>Continue</guibutton>">
    <!ENTITY BTN-CANCEL "<guibutton>Cancel</guibutton>">
    <!ENTITY BTN-GOBACK "<guibutton>Go Back</guibutton>">

    -<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' -->
    +<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' and 'gigabytes' -->
    <!ENTITY notation-megabytes "MB">
    +<!ENTITY notation-gigabytes "GB">
    +
    +<!-- generic RAM / harddisk size recommendations for all archs -->
    +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum "512&notation-megabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-ram-recommend "1&notation-gigabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-hd "4&notation-gigabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-ram-minimum "1&notation-gigabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-ram-recommend "2&notation-gigabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-hd "10&notation-gigabytes;">

    <!-- minimum hard disk size for base system -->
    <!-- As measured just before reboot (i.e. before the cleanup script drops
    .debs), plus some margin. This is also approximately the used size after
    cleanup, plus minimal ~150MB work space included.
    Also update the value in debian-installer/build/boot/x86/f2.txt

    -<!ENTITY minimum-fs-size "1160&notation-megabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY minimum-fs-size "&ref-no-desktop-hd;">

    <!--
    Size of install as used in appendix/files.xml; all values based on amd64.

    To determine the size of the base system and tasks, start with a default
    installation:
    - having removed /usr/lib/finish-install.d/08hw-detect to avoid installing
    qemu-guest-agent which pulls glib+perl+icu
    - in English
    - with use of network mirror
    diff --git a/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml b/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml
    index 10f074738..eae24c6ff 100644
    --- a/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml
    +++ b/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml
    @@ -1,48 +1,15 @@
    <!-- retain these comments for translator revision tracking -->
    <!-- $Id$ -->

    <sect1 id="memory-disk-requirements">
    <title>Memory and Disk Space Requirements</title>

    <para>

    -You must have at least &minimum-memory; of memory and &minimum-fs-size;
    -of hard disk space to perform a normal installation. Note that these are -fairly minimal numbers. For more realistic figures, see
    +We recommend at least &ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum; of memory and &minimum-fs-size;
    +of hard disk space to perform an installation. For more detailed values, see
    <xref linkend="minimum-hardware-reqts"/>.

    -</para><para>
    -
    -The installer normally automatically enables memory-saving tricks to be able to
    -run on such low-memory system, but on architectures that are less tested
    -it may miss doing so. It can however be enabled manually by appending the -<userinput>lowmem=1</userinput> or even <userinput>lowmem=2</userinput> boot -parameter (see also <xref linkend="lowmem"/> and
    -<xref linkend="installer-args"/>).
    -
    -</para><warning condition="lowmem-unchecked"><para>
    -
    -On &architecture; the lowmem levels have not been tested, so automatic detection
    -is probably outdated and you thus probably <emphasis>need</emphasis> to pass the
    -boot parameter if your system has little memory.
    -
    -</para></warning><para>
    -
    -Installation on systems with less memory<footnote condition="gtk">
    -
    -<para>
    -
    -Installation images that support the graphical installer require more -memory than images that support only the text-based installer and should -not be used on systems with less than &minimum-memory; of memory. If
    -there is a choice between booting the text-based and the graphical installer,
    -the former should be selected on such systems.
    -
    -</para>
    -
    -</footnote> or disk space available may be possible but is only advised for -experienced users.
    -
    </para>

    </sect1>
    diff --git a/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml b/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml
    index eb36bb9ce..076c65791 100644
    --- a/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml
    +++ b/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml
    @@ -38,48 +38,80 @@ Any OldWorld or NewWorld PowerPC can serve well as a desktop system.
    <entry>Install Type</entry>
    <entry>RAM (minimum)</entry>
    <entry>RAM (recommended)</entry>
    <entry>Hard Drive</entry>
    </row>
    </thead>

    <tbody>
    <row>
    <entry>No desktop</entry>
    - <entry>256 megabytes</entry>
    - <entry>512 megabytes</entry>
    - <entry>4 gigabytes</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum;</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-ram-recommend;</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-hd;</entry>
    </row><row arch="not-s390">
    <entry>With Desktop</entry>
    - <entry>1 gigabytes</entry>
    - <entry>2 gigabytes</entry>
    - <entry>10 gigabytes</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-ram-minimum;</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-ram-recommend;</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-hd;</entry>
    </row>

    </tbody></tgroup></table>

    <para>

    The minimum values assumes that swap will be enabled and a non-liveCD image is used.
    -The <quote>No desktop</quote> value assumes that the non-graphical (text-based)
    -installer is used.
    +The <quote>No desktop</quote> value assumes that the text-based installer +(not the graphical one) is used.

    </para><para>

    The actual minimum memory requirements are a lot less than the numbers
    listed in this table. With swap enabled, it is possible to
    install &debian; with as little as &minimum-memory-strict;.
    The same goes for the disk space requirements, especially if you
    pick and choose which applications to install; see
    <xref linkend="tasksel-size-list"/> for additional information on disk
    space requirements.

    +</para><para>
    +
    +The installer normally automatically enables memory-saving tricks to be able to
    +run on such low-memory system, but on architectures that are less tested
    +it may miss doing so. It can however be enabled manually by appending the +<userinput>lowmem=1</userinput> or even <userinput>lowmem=2</userinput> boot +parameter (see also <xref linkend="lowmem"/> and
    +<xref linkend="installer-args"/>).
    +
    +</para><warning condition="lowmem-unchecked"><para>
    +
    +On &architecture; the lowmem levels have not been tested, so automatic detection
    +is probably outdated and you thus probably <emphasis>need</emphasis> to pass the
    +boot parameter if your system has little memory.
    +
    +</para></warning><para>
    +
    +Installation on systems with less memory<footnote condition="gtk">
    +
    +<para>
    +
    +Installation images that support the graphical installer require more +memory than images that support only the text-based installer and should +not be used on systems with less than &minimum-memory; of memory. If
    +there is a choice between booting the text-based and the graphical installer,
    +the former should be selected on such systems.
    +
    +</para>
    +
    +</footnote> or disk space available may be possible but is only advised for +experienced users.
    +
    </para><para arch="not-s390">

    It is possible to run a graphical desktop environment on older or
    low-end systems, but in that case it is recommended to install
    a window manager that is less resource-hungry than those of the
    GNOME or KDE Plasma desktop environments; alternatives include
    <classname>xfce4</classname>, <classname>icewm</classname> and
    <classname>wmaker</classname>, but there are others to choose from.

    </para><para>


    --
    Samuel
    ---
    Pour une évaluation indépendante, transparente et rigoureuse !
    Je soutiens la Commission d'Évaluation de l'Inria.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Holger Wansing@21:1/5 to Samuel Thibault on Tue Aug 8 21:50:01 2023
    Hi,

    Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> wrote (Tue, 8 Aug 2023 00:14:11 +0200):
    Hello,

    This looks reasonable, thanks!

    Now pushed to git.

    thanks



    Samuel

    Holger Wansing, le mar. 08 aot 2023 00:06:14 +0200, a ecrit:
    Hi again,

    Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> wrote (Sun, 6 Aug 2023 14:32:22 +0200):
    Holger Wansing, le sam. 05 aot 2023 20:46:27 +0200, a ecrit:
    Now looking in the doc source, I see that the "780MB" value from above is
    architecture-dependent too.

    Ah, yes, that's part of the lowmem testing.

    While 780MB seems realistic for amd64 to me, I wonder if the other values can
    be up-to-date:

    amd64:minimum_memory=780
    arm64:minimum_memory=260
    armel:minimum_memory=80
    armhf:minimum_memory=190
    i386:minimum_memory=485
    mips:minimum_memory=85
    mips64el:minimum_memory=345
    mipsel:minimum_memory=170
    ppc64el:minimum_memory=64
    s390x:minimum_memory=44

    In the most eye-catching case of s390x, my proposal would mean, to change
    the value in the guide from 44 to 512MB !
    That leads to the question, if the new situation after my changing would be
    wrong, or if the doc was wrong in the past?

    The doc probably just ended up wrong by just not getting updated,
    because we don't have people who both care about updating them, and have access to the hardware or know the qemu tricks to test all archs.

    I see that in the lowmem package, bbb4ed4c4da20d585cf30ceba9f0987173d3ac70 raised the default levels from 32MB/64MB to 120MB/155MB, that being the minimum numbers that were actually seen to work on at least some arch.

    Ok, I have now included those changes into my patch, to get the numbers up-to-date for all archs.

    That is:

    amd64:minimum_memory_strict=350
    amd64:minimum_memory=780

    arm64:minimum_memory_strict=245
    arm64:minimum_memory=260

    armel:minimum_memory_strict=140
    armel:minimum_memory=190

    armhf:minimum_memory_strict=140
    armhf:minimum_memory=190

    i386:minimum_memory_strict=285
    i386:minimum_memory=485

    mips64el:minimum_memory_strict=200
    mips64el:minimum_memory=345

    mipsel:minimum_memory_strict=160
    mipsel:minimum_memory=170

    ppc64el:minimum_memory_strict=256
    ppc64el:minimum_memory=500

    s390x:minimum_memory_strict=120
    s390x:minimum_memory=155

    See patch.


    And, if a generic value for all archs is realistic and makes sense at all?

    Probably not, as seen in the values in the lowmem package.

    I think I found a reasonable solution.

    Current situation is:

    We have two sorts of numbers for RAM size:

    a) some kind of rough values, identical for all archs. These are just
    subjective values, rounded up to the next bigger RAM modules you can buy
    (current values can be found in
    "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements" at
    https://d-i.debian.org/manual/en.amd64/ch03s04.html )
    These are only rough recommendations, as in "we **recommend** X MB".
    And this chapter 3.4 also mentions, that these recommendations can well be
    underrun by the second sort of values:
    b) these are values based on meassurements during lowmem testing. They are
    different over the archs, and in the current text they are considered as
    some kind of strict requirement, as in "you **need** at least X MB" values.
    --> Compare this to the "we **recommend** X MB" values from a) !




    Taking all this as a basis, I would like to propose the following:


    1. in chapter 2 (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch02s05.html)
    which is about hardware requirements, just mention the minimal rough
    recommended values from a) which says something like "512MB" or "1GB",
    corresponding to RAM modules available from your favorite hardware store.

    2. People who want to try to go with lower values, are guided to
    chapter 3 (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch03s04.html),
    where they find the values from b) based on lowmem tests, which contain
    the "absolute minimum values", drawing the baseline that cannot be underrun.
    Note, that this page is different, depending on arch!

    3. Move all the constraints / advanced infos like
    - installer should automatically do memory-saving tricks on low-memory systems"
    - warning, when lowmem levels are untested for some archs
    - note, that graphical installer images need more RAM
    from chapter 2 to 3, where they fit better: That's not hardware (which would
    be chapter 2), but how the software deals with the available hardware (so
    that's chapter 3).

    4. I moved the values for "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements"
    from hardcoded values to entities, to ease changings on this in the future
    (especially when looking at translations).

    5. I bumped the recommended RAM size values from a)
    from
    256MB (minimum) + 512MB (recommended)
    to
    512MB (minimum) + 1G (recommended)



    All the resulting html files, separated for all archs can be found on https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/

    The interesting chapters are "Memory and Disk Space Requirements" in chapter 2
    and "Meeting Minimum Hardware Requirements" in chapter 3.


    Sorry, if this is kind of a chaotic thread; the issue grew bigger than I had expected.



    Holger


    --
    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org>
    PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

    diff --git a/build/arch-options/armel b/build/arch-options/armel
    index d17df5114..1598edb87 100644
    --- a/build/arch-options/armel
    +++ b/build/arch-options/armel
    @@ -4,23 +4,23 @@

    # Note that we keep "arm" as archspec (and thus also for conditions)
    # and also continue to use "arm" for arch-specific XML-files in order
    # to minimize impact on translations.

    archspec="arm;armel;not-x86;not-s390;not-powerpc"
    arch_listname="arm"
    arch_porturl="arm"
    # TODO: update
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory_strict=32
    +minimum_memory_strict=140
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory=80
    +minimum_memory=190
    # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below
    smp_config_section="N/A"
    smp_config_option="N/A"

    # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition'
    # in the build scripts
    fdisk="fdisk.txt;cfdisk.txt"
    network="supports-tftp;supports-rarp;supports-bootp;supports-nfsroot"
    boot=""
    frontend="newt;not-gtk"
    diff --git a/build/arch-options/ppc64el b/build/arch-options/ppc64el
    index 2162cac4f..f07eb97de 100644
    --- a/build/arch-options/ppc64el
    +++ b/build/arch-options/ppc64el
    @@ -1,22 +1,22 @@
    # This file contains architecture specific variables for
    # the 'ppc64el' architecture
    # It is sourced by the build scripts

    archspec="ppc64el;not-s390;not-x86"
    arch_listname="powerpc"
    arch_porturl="powerpc"
    # TODO: update
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory_strict=32
    +minimum_memory_strict=256
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory=64
    +minimum_memory=500
    # This is coming from the rootskel package, S60frontend
    minimum_memory_gtk=800
    # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below
    smp_config_section="Processor support"
    smp_config_option="Symmetric multi-processing support"

    # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition'
    # in the build scripts
    fdisk="fdisk.txt;cfdisk.txt"
    network="supports-tftp;supports-bootp;supports-nfsroot"
    diff --git a/build/arch-options/s390x b/build/arch-options/s390x
    index 7dcac7a73..8647fcc71 100644
    --- a/build/arch-options/s390x
    +++ b/build/arch-options/s390x
    @@ -4,23 +4,23 @@

    # Note that we keep "s390" as archspec (and thus also for conditions)
    # and also continue to use "s390" for arch-specific XML-files in order
    # to minimize impact on translations.

    archspec="s390;not-powerpc;not-x86"
    arch_listname="s390"
    arch_porturl="s390"
    # TODO: update
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory_strict=32
    +minimum_memory_strict=120
    # This is coming from the lowmem package
    -minimum_memory=44
    +minimum_memory=155
    # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below
    smp_config_section="Processor type and features"
    smp_config_option="Symmetric multi-processing support"

    # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition'
    # in the build scripts
    fdisk="fdasd.txt;dasdfmt.txt"
    network=""
    boot=""
    frontend="not-newt;not-gtk"
    diff --git a/build/entities/common.ent b/build/entities/common.ent
    index 1e58745e1..f7b7f774c 100644
    --- a/build/entities/common.ent
    +++ b/build/entities/common.ent
    @@ -59,30 +59,39 @@
    <!ENTITY escapekey "<keycap>Esc</keycap>">
    <!ENTITY tabkey "<keycap>Tab</keycap>">
    <!ENTITY spacekey "<keycap>Space</keycap>">
    <!ENTITY shiftkey "<keycap>Shift</keycap>">
    <!ENTITY MSG-YES "<userinput>Yes</userinput>">
    <!ENTITY MSG-NO "<userinput>No</userinput>">
    <!ENTITY BTN-CONT "<guibutton>Continue</guibutton>">
    <!ENTITY BTN-CANCEL "<guibutton>Cancel</guibutton>">
    <!ENTITY BTN-GOBACK "<guibutton>Go Back</guibutton>">

    -<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' -->
    +<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' and 'gigabytes' -->
    <!ENTITY notation-megabytes "MB">
    +<!ENTITY notation-gigabytes "GB">
    +
    +<!-- generic RAM / harddisk size recommendations for all archs --> +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum "512&notation-megabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-ram-recommend "1&notation-gigabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-hd "4&notation-gigabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-ram-minimum "1&notation-gigabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-ram-recommend "2&notation-gigabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-hd "10&notation-gigabytes;">

    <!-- minimum hard disk size for base system -->
    <!-- As measured just before reboot (i.e. before the cleanup script drops
    .debs), plus some margin. This is also approximately the used size after
    cleanup, plus minimal ~150MB work space included.
    Also update the value in debian-installer/build/boot/x86/f2.txt

    -<!ENTITY minimum-fs-size "1160&notation-megabytes;">
    +<!ENTITY minimum-fs-size "&ref-no-desktop-hd;">

    <!--
    Size of install as used in appendix/files.xml; all values based on amd64.

    To determine the size of the base system and tasks, start with a default
    installation:
    - having removed /usr/lib/finish-install.d/08hw-detect to avoid installing
    qemu-guest-agent which pulls glib+perl+icu
    - in English
    - with use of network mirror
    diff --git a/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml b/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml
    index 10f074738..eae24c6ff 100644
    --- a/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml
    +++ b/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml
    @@ -1,48 +1,15 @@
    <!-- retain these comments for translator revision tracking -->
    <!-- $Id$ -->

    <sect1 id="memory-disk-requirements">
    <title>Memory and Disk Space Requirements</title>

    <para>

    -You must have at least &minimum-memory; of memory and &minimum-fs-size; -of hard disk space to perform a normal installation. Note that these are -fairly minimal numbers. For more realistic figures, see
    +We recommend at least &ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum; of memory and &minimum-fs-size;
    +of hard disk space to perform an installation. For more detailed values, see
    <xref linkend="minimum-hardware-reqts"/>.

    -</para><para>
    -
    -The installer normally automatically enables memory-saving tricks to be able to
    -run on such low-memory system, but on architectures that are less tested -it may miss doing so. It can however be enabled manually by appending the -<userinput>lowmem=1</userinput> or even <userinput>lowmem=2</userinput> boot
    -parameter (see also <xref linkend="lowmem"/> and
    -<xref linkend="installer-args"/>).
    -
    -</para><warning condition="lowmem-unchecked"><para>
    -
    -On &architecture; the lowmem levels have not been tested, so automatic detection
    -is probably outdated and you thus probably <emphasis>need</emphasis> to pass the
    -boot parameter if your system has little memory.
    -
    -</para></warning><para>
    -
    -Installation on systems with less memory<footnote condition="gtk">
    -
    -<para>
    -
    -Installation images that support the graphical installer require more -memory than images that support only the text-based installer and should -not be used on systems with less than &minimum-memory; of memory. If -there is a choice between booting the text-based and the graphical installer,
    -the former should be selected on such systems.
    -
    -</para>
    -
    -</footnote> or disk space available may be possible but is only advised for
    -experienced users.
    -
    </para>

    </sect1>
    diff --git a/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml b/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml
    index eb36bb9ce..076c65791 100644
    --- a/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml
    +++ b/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml
    @@ -38,48 +38,80 @@ Any OldWorld or NewWorld PowerPC can serve well as a desktop system.
    <entry>Install Type</entry>
    <entry>RAM (minimum)</entry>
    <entry>RAM (recommended)</entry>
    <entry>Hard Drive</entry>
    </row>
    </thead>

    <tbody>
    <row>
    <entry>No desktop</entry>
    - <entry>256 megabytes</entry>
    - <entry>512 megabytes</entry>
    - <entry>4 gigabytes</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum;</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-ram-recommend;</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-hd;</entry>
    </row><row arch="not-s390">
    <entry>With Desktop</entry>
    - <entry>1 gigabytes</entry>
    - <entry>2 gigabytes</entry>
    - <entry>10 gigabytes</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-ram-minimum;</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-ram-recommend;</entry>
    + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-hd;</entry>
    </row>

    </tbody></tgroup></table>

    <para>

    The minimum values assumes that swap will be enabled and a non-liveCD image is used.
    -The <quote>No desktop</quote> value assumes that the non-graphical (text-based)
    -installer is used.
    +The <quote>No desktop</quote> value assumes that the text-based installer +(not the graphical one) is used.

    </para><para>

    The actual minimum memory requirements are a lot less than the numbers
    listed in this table. With swap enabled, it is possible to
    install &debian; with as little as &minimum-memory-strict;.
    The same goes for the disk space requirements, especially if you
    pick and choose which applications to install; see
    <xref linkend="tasksel-size-list"/> for additional information on disk
    space requirements.

    +</para><para>
    +
    +The installer normally automatically enables memory-saving tricks to be able to
    +run on such low-memory system, but on architectures that are less tested +it may miss doing so. It can however be enabled manually by appending the +<userinput>lowmem=1</userinput> or even <userinput>lowmem=2</userinput> boot
    +parameter (see also <xref linkend="lowmem"/> and
    +<xref linkend="installer-args"/>).
    +
    +</para><warning condition="lowmem-unchecked"><para>
    +
    +On &architecture; the lowmem levels have not been tested, so automatic detection
    +is probably outdated and you thus probably <emphasis>need</emphasis> to pass the
    +boot parameter if your system has little memory.
    +
    +</para></warning><para>
    +
    +Installation on systems with less memory<footnote condition="gtk">
    +
    +<para>
    +
    +Installation images that support the graphical installer require more +memory than images that support only the text-based installer and should +not be used on systems with less than &minimum-memory; of memory. If +there is a choice between booting the text-based and the graphical installer,
    +the former should be selected on such systems.
    +
    +</para>
    +
    +</footnote> or disk space available may be possible but is only advised for
    +experienced users.
    +
    </para><para arch="not-s390">

    It is possible to run a graphical desktop environment on older or
    low-end systems, but in that case it is recommended to install
    a window manager that is less resource-hungry than those of the
    GNOME or KDE Plasma desktop environments; alternatives include
    <classname>xfce4</classname>, <classname>icewm</classname> and
    <classname>wmaker</classname>, but there are others to choose from.

    </para><para>


    --
    Samuel
    ---
    Pour une valuation indpendante, transparente et rigoureuse !
    Je soutiens la Commission d'valuation de l'Inria.



    --
    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org>
    PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Holger Wansing@21:1/5 to Holger Wansing on Thu Aug 24 08:10:01 2023
    Hi,

    a follow-up on this regarding installer help screen:

    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org> wrote (Tue, 8 Aug 2023 00:06:14 +0200):
    amd64:minimum_memory_strict=350
    amd64:minimum_memory=780

    arm64:minimum_memory_strict=245
    arm64:minimum_memory=260

    armel:minimum_memory_strict=140
    armel:minimum_memory=190

    armhf:minimum_memory_strict=140
    armhf:minimum_memory=190

    i386:minimum_memory_strict=285
    i386:minimum_memory=485

    Looking at this values (the current ones from lowmem), we have 350MB for
    amd64 and 285MB for i386.
    The installer help screen F2 has the 285MB value (grabbed from i386 ?) even on the amd64 image.

    Should this be sync'ed somehow?

    (Of course, bumping this value from 285 to 350 means, that the i386 installer help screen says "350MB needed", which is strictly not correct, but that's
    not a blocker IMO ?)


    Or another approach:
    should we rephrase this similar to what we have now on https://d-i.debian.org/manual/en.amd64/ch02s05.html
    to say something like
    "We recommend xx MB of RAM"
    instead of
    "You need at least xx"
    ?

    Or even
    "You must have at least 350 megabytes of RAM to use this Debian installer,
    but we recommend a minimum of 512 megabytes."



    Holger



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  • From Samuel Thibault@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 24 21:20:01 2023
    Holger Wansing, le jeu. 24 août 2023 08:01:46 +0200, a ecrit:
    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org> wrote (Tue, 8 Aug 2023 00:06:14 +0200):
    amd64:minimum_memory_strict=350
    amd64:minimum_memory=780

    i386:minimum_memory_strict=285
    i386:minimum_memory=485

    Looking at this values (the current ones from lowmem), we have 350MB for amd64 and 285MB for i386.
    The installer help screen F2 has the 285MB value (grabbed from i386 ?) even on
    the amd64 image.

    Should this be sync'ed somehow?

    They need to be updated when updating the values in lowmem, yes.

    (Of course, bumping this value from 285 to 350 means, that the i386 installer help screen says "350MB needed", which is strictly not correct, but that's not a blocker IMO ?)

    I'd say we can as well just put the amd64 values there.

    Samuel

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  • From Holger Wansing@21:1/5 to Samuel Thibault on Thu Aug 24 22:50:01 2023
    Hi,

    Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> wrote (Thu, 24 Aug 2023 21:14:29 +0200):
    Holger Wansing, le jeu. 24 aot 2023 08:01:46 +0200, a ecrit:
    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org> wrote (Tue, 8 Aug 2023 00:06:14 +0200):
    amd64:minimum_memory_strict=350
    amd64:minimum_memory=780

    i386:minimum_memory_strict=285
    i386:minimum_memory=485

    Looking at this values (the current ones from lowmem), we have 350MB for amd64 and 285MB for i386.
    The installer help screen F2 has the 285MB value (grabbed from i386 ?) even on
    the amd64 image.

    Should this be sync'ed somehow?

    They need to be updated when updating the values in lowmem, yes.

    (Of course, bumping this value from 285 to 350 means, that the i386 installer
    help screen says "350MB needed", which is strictly not correct, but that's not a blocker IMO ?)

    I'd say we can as well just put the amd64 values there.

    Done.
    Thanks


    Holger


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  • From Pascal Hambourg@21:1/5 to Samuel Thibault on Wed Oct 18 12:00:01 2023
    On 06/08/2023 at 14:32, Samuel Thibault wrote:

    The doc probably just ended up wrong by just not getting updated,

    In chapter 6.3.1.1. "Check available memory / low memory mode":

    "If the installer runs in low memory mode, it is recommended to create a relatively large swap partition (64–128MB)."

    These values are very low by today standards.
    Also, mentions of ext3 are outdated, I doubt anybody still uses it for
    new installations.

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  • From Holger Wansing@21:1/5 to Pascal Hambourg on Mon Oct 30 11:50:01 2023
    Hi,

    Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> wrote (Wed, 18 Oct 2023 11:49:42 +0200):
    On 06/08/2023 at 14:32, Samuel Thibault wrote:

    The doc probably just ended up wrong by just not getting updated,

    In chapter 6.3.1.1. "Check available memory / low memory mode":

    "If the installer runs in low memory mode, it is recommended to create a relatively large swap partition (64–128MB)."

    You are right.
    I could change that into something like 1-2 GB.
    One might think, this is still "relatively small" these days, but it's
    always enough for the installer, so I think that would be ok.


    These values are very low by today standards.
    Also, mentions of ext3 are outdated, I doubt anybody still uses it for
    new installations.



    Holger


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  • From Holger Wansing@21:1/5 to Holger Wansing on Wed Nov 1 20:50:01 2023
    Hi,

    Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org> wrote (Mon, 30 Oct 2023 11:49:29 +0100):
    Hi,

    Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> wrote (Wed, 18 Oct 2023 11:49:42 +0200):
    On 06/08/2023 at 14:32, Samuel Thibault wrote:

    The doc probably just ended up wrong by just not getting updated,

    In chapter 6.3.1.1. "Check available memory / low memory mode":

    "If the installer runs in low memory mode, it is recommended to create a relatively large swap partition (64–128MB)."

    You are right.
    I could change that into something like 1-2 GB.
    One might think, this is still "relatively small" these days, but it's
    always enough for the installer, so I think that would be ok.

    Ah, I realize that the above is completely bullshit:
    the swap partition is not only for the installer, but later for installed system as well (shame on me).

    So should I change to "2-4 GB at least" ?

    Holger



    These values are very low by today standards.
    Also, mentions of ext3 are outdated, I doubt anybody still uses it for
    new installations.



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  • From Pascal Hambourg@21:1/5 to Holger Wansing on Wed Nov 1 23:40:01 2023
    On 01/11/2023 at 20:46, Holger Wansing wrote:

    In chapter 6.3.1.1. "Check available memory / low memory mode":

    "If the installer runs in low memory mode, it is recommended to create a >>> relatively large swap partition (64–128MB)."

    I could change that into something like 1-2 GB.
    One might think, this is still "relatively small" these days, but it's
    always enough for the installer, so I think that would be ok.

    Ah, I realize that the above is completely bullshit:
    the swap partition is not only for the installer, but later for installed system as well (shame on me).

    So should I change to "2-4 GB at least" ?

    The installer running in low memory mode means that the system RAM is
    less than 1 GB, so I doubt that a swap bigger than 2 GB makes sense.

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  • From Holger Wansing@21:1/5 to Pascal Hambourg on Sat Nov 18 11:10:01 2023
    Hi,

    Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> wrote (Wed, 1 Nov 2023 23:35:00 +0100):
    On 01/11/2023 at 20:46, Holger Wansing wrote:

    In chapter 6.3.1.1. "Check available memory / low memory mode":

    "If the installer runs in low memory mode, it is recommended to create a >>> relatively large swap partition (64–128MB)."

    I could change that into something like 1-2 GB.
    One might think, this is still "relatively small" these days, but it's
    always enough for the installer, so I think that would be ok.

    Ah, I realize that the above is completely bullshit:
    the swap partition is not only for the installer, but later for installed system as well (shame on me).

    So should I change to "2-4 GB at least" ?

    The installer running in low memory mode means that the system RAM is
    less than 1 GB, so I doubt that a swap bigger than 2 GB makes sense.

    Now changed to "1-2GB".


    Thanks
    Holger


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