Dear all,

please consider that events being commented here have already happened, had consequences and it’s not like you can go back in time.

Debian like most human groups has rules on how to become and stay a member of the community. If you’re interested in them you can find pointers at : https://wiki.debian.org/DAManager
The discussions on this have long passed usefulness and are more and more offtopic for a Debian mailing list for KDE users.


Regarding the maintenance of the KDE stack in Debian, as I wrote earlier help is very much welcome !
You’re welcome to test and report here, welcome to file bugs, welcome to step
in and help update or maintain your favorite desktop and apps !

If you’re interested in packaging software for Debian you can start at : https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers/
and join the #debian-qt-kde IRC channel, subscribe to the pkg-kde-talk mailing list.

You’re obviously also free to go some place else if you so prefer. We’re lucky
that the Free and Open Source community is striving with many nice projects to use and contribute to.

Also remember that there are people on the other side of your "apt update" who spend hours packaging complex software for the benefits of everyone, on their free time.
Gratuitous criticism of what others choose to do or not do in a volunteer project is uncalled for, unwelcome and only going to make things worse. So please refrain from doing so and if you’re unhappy with something do come and
fix it instead. :-)


Happy hacking !
--
Aurélien


Le dimanche 23 janvier 2022, 21:51:51 CET Rainer Dorsch a écrit :

Hi Luc,

the DAMs decision is extremly frustrating for Debian KDE users and given the short statement on debian-user

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2022/01/msg00807.html

it is at least not clear to me if they seriously searched for a solution which would have served better all involved parties and the Debian (KDE) users. This message even increases the doubt, that searching for such a solution was a priority for them

https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html

I used the ... which the DAMs created in Debian KDE as opportunity and installed on a new desktop Manjaro stable instead of Debian to experiment with it (I still have Debian bullseye desktops in use). As a Debian stable user I considered manjaro more appropriate than Arch.

Kmail 5.19.0/21.12.0 in manjaro stable was a pleasant surprise. Even though it is newer than Kmail in Debian unstable, the manjaro stable upgrade to 21.12.1 is downloaded while I am writting. I am curious to see how this experiment goes in the next months in particular the updates. The good
thing for Open Source users is that we have choice if things go into the wrong direction somewhere :-)

Rainer

On Sonntag, 23. Januar 2022 18:56:09 CET Luc Castermans wrote:

yep.

For me key is that we loose a very valuable contributor and great contribution! Reasons for this are unclear to me. Why this demotion,
are
those who decide on this stating and communicating their reasons, better
is
this a group decision?

Luc

Op zo 23 jan. 2022 13:59 schreef Dietz Proepper <dietz@scanthis.de>:

Am Freitag, 21. Januar 2022, 01:11:44 CET schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:

I never had any issues with Norbert.

Full ACK.

+1. And also not with Marco, as far as I remember. Which comes with little
relevance, as we did not have much contact before.

Let's always keep discussions civil and in good faith...

Well, but jftr, let's not forget who started this thread and in which way.
At
the very least, citing the source of ones comments is quite basic
IMNSHO.

Kindest regards,

Dietz

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Dear Aurélien.

Aurélien COUDERC - 23.01.22, 23:17:32 CET:

please consider that events being commented here have already
happened, had consequences and it’s not like you can go back in time.

Debian like most human groups has rules on how to become and stay a
member of the community. If you’re interested in them you can find
pointers at : https://wiki.debian.org/DAManager
The discussions on this have long passed usefulness and are more and
more offtopic for a Debian mailing list for KDE users.

I think when Debian account managers remove Debian developer status from someone who contributed a lot to KDE packages in Debian, it is fair
enough for users to express their frustration with that.

Muting discussion is a pattern I have seen so often in Debian that I
meanwhile unsubscribed from various development related mailing lists of Debian. Also cause it hurt reading what I read there. I am not a Debian developer and this in part is cause as my motivation increased to become
one I saw more and more that Debian at least in part has become a toxic environment. I do not like to be involved with the kind of politics I
have seen in Debian in the last years. In my perception it certainly did
not get better.

That written, I don't know what it was this time. I cannot say for sure whether it was justified or not. I could try to dig it all up, but most
likely after I try to read the mails related to this I would have more question marks than before. I would not be surprised if there would not
at least be two sides of the story. Both perfectly valid. And the
solution would have been to talk *with* one another in a constructive
way.

I am not (yet) ready to jump ship at the moment. Well in part I did by
moving to Devuan cause of the utter failure within Debian to resolve the conflict regarding the introduction of Systemd, however, I understand perfectly well that without the activity of the Debian Qt/KDE team there
would be no KDE Plasma and Co in Devuan.

I am grateful for that.

But at the same time I feel it is fair enough for users of KDE software
in Debian to express their frustration with what happened in a
*respectful* way.

From what I have seen happening within Debian within the last years, I
am not likely to increase my formal engagement with the project unless
there would be an in-depth transformation process of the culture
regarding how to handle conflict within the project. I am just not ready
to deal with the amount of toxicity I have seen within the last years.
There is a culture within Debian to stifle conflict instead of moving
through and then resolving it, and that clearly doesn't work. Conflicts
are a natural part of human relationships.

It is sad, cause on the other hand I usually got along well with members
of the Qt/KDE team and at least helped a bit here and there, not with packaging, but with communication with users, bug triaging and things
like that.

Fortunately enough KDE project mostly appears to be a much more
welcoming place.

It is sad to see what is happening from within Debian to Debian, but I
see myself not in a position to do much about it.

Best,
--
Martin

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You:

It is sad to see what is happening from within Debian to Debian, but I
see myself not in a position to do much about it.

I second that.

Kindest regards,
Dietz

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On Sun, 23 Jan 2022, Aurélien COUDERC wrote:

Debian like most human groups has rules on how to become and stay a member of

Like
* "not complaining when getting bullied and publicily thrown mud at" or
* "not daring to criticize the oligarchs" or
* "not expecting fair treatment when one is not buddy of DAM/CT" or
* "not ignoring getting called Nazi and white supremacist etc" or
* ....

all those are not mentioned here:

https://wiki.debian.org/DAManager

Maybe the page needs an update?

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert https://www.preining.info
Fujitsu Research + IFMGA Guide + TU Wien + TeX Live
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

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not ignoring getting called Nazi and white supremacist

https://archive.org/details/dont_get_mewrongim_notanazi

rotfl

--
Marco Valli

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Marco Valli ha scritto:

Marco, please stop.

This is beyond the point of whether your starting point may have had some
merit if expressed differently or not.

--
Luigi

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+1 Luigi

Op ma 24 jan. 2022 11:58 schreef Luigi Toscano <luigi.toscano@tiscali.it>:

Marco Valli ha scritto:

Marco, please stop.

This is beyond the point of whether your starting point may have had some merit if expressed differently or not.

--
Luigi

<div dir="auto">+1 Luigi</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op ma 24 jan. 2022 11:58 schreef Luigi Toscano &lt;<a href="mailto:luigi.toscano@tiscali.it">luigi.toscano@tiscali.it</a>&gt;:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_
quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Marco Valli ha scritto:<br>

Marco, please stop.<br>

This is beyond the point of whether your starting point may have had some<br> merit if expressed differently or not.<br>

-- <br>
Luigi<br>

</blockquote></div>

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Reported to listmaster and Debian CT.

Enjoy

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, Marco Valli wrote:

not ignoring getting called Nazi and white supremacist

https://archive.org/details/dont_get_mewrongim_notanazi

rotfl

--
Marco Valli

--
PREINING Norbert https://www.preining.info
Fujitsu Research + IFMGA Guide + TU Wien + TeX Live
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

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