• "Sanctity" of private emails (was Re: Can we calm the tone here (and ot

    From Ian Jackson@21:1/5 to Andrew M.A. Cater on Wed May 21 18:30:02 2025
    Andrew M.A. Cater writes, in an official statement of the Community Team:
    Taking private communications and moving them onto public lists without consent is unacceptable at any time.

    I would to clarify/contest this. This rule, as stated, is very
    broad, unqualified, and absolute.

    If we take this at face value, in all of the following hyothetical
    examples, a hypothetical Alice (a Debian Member) would be behaving
    unacceptably according to the CT:

    1. Alice emails her Member of Parliament about the UK Online Safety
    Act and its impact on online collaboration. She approves very much
    of the reply, and publishes it on debian-project.

    2. An employee of a tech giant sends Alice an unsolicited email
    inviting her to help sneak spyware into a package she maintains.
    She publishes the email, causing a massive public row.

    3. Bob, a member of the Debian Technical Commitee, CC's Alice on an
    mail with technical information contradicting Bob's public
    position; Bob explains in the mail that he doesn't want to have to
    explain the details in public because it would undermine support
    for his preferred outcome. Alice nevertheless posts the message
    publicly to the TC mailing list.

    I could go on.

    I think these examples demonstrate that any convention against posting
    private emails cannot be absolute. Rather, things are contextual. It
    depends on the power relationship, and on the role of each party in
    the conversation, and there are many exceptions where publication is
    fine - even, necessary.

    In Debian we supposedly value transparency. We should be making
    decisions, and carrying out consultations, and exchanging technical information, in public, unless there are very good reasons to do
    otherwise.

    Ian.

    [1] Presumably, the exchange is one that's on-topic.

    --
    Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.

    Pronouns: they/he. If I emailed you from @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk,
    that is a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

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  • From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to Ian Jackson on Wed May 21 19:20:01 2025
    Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
    Andrew M.A. Cater writes, in an official statement of the Community Team:

    Taking private communications and moving them onto public lists without
    consent is unacceptable at any time.

    I would to clarify/contest this. This rule, as stated, is very
    broad, unqualified, and absolute.

    Yeah, I agree. This has been a rule of thumb for as long as I've been on
    the Internet and I've always been uncomfortable with the absolute version.
    I've also seen it abused from time to time for nearly as long as I've been
    on the Internet. It's sometimes appropriate and even necessary to publish private communications.

    The reason why people cite this rule about not publishing private communications, though, is that it's shorthand for a lot of principles
    that I do agree with and that are tedious to spell out every time. It's therefore a good *default*, as long as people don't take it as an absolute
    that applies in every circumstance.

    Just off the top of my head, here are a bunch of reasons for normally not
    doing this:

    1. Discussing things in public takes way more energy and is higher risk
    than discussing them in private, and sometimes people just aren't up to
    it. It's fine to disregard their opinion in this case if one feels
    strongly that the matter must be discussed in public, but dragging them
    into the public discussion against their will is a good way to alienate
    volunteers and drive them away from Debian.

    2. Republishing messages in a different context inherently changes their
    meaning, and sometimes the meaning can change in ways that are
    deceptive. This can be done inadvertantly, even if the person who is
    republishing the message has no intention of doing this, because the
    person republishing is usually familiar with the other context and may
    not see how the message would read in isolation.

    3. Changing someone's chosen venue of discussion from private to public is
    usually an escalation and is usually going to make people angry.
    Sometimes escalation is warranted, but it's always something to think
    twice about. All other things being equal, ideally we should not make
    each other angry while trying to solve problems!

    4. Often the intention and hope with private communication is that the
    person you're corresponding with will point out where you're wrong or
    misguided and help you correct your thinking. If that communication is
    instead published publicly, it often feels like public mocking and
    shaming for things that you said in private in part because they
    weren't fully thought through. This, again, is a good way to alienate
    volunteers and drive them away from Debian.

    5. Forcing someone's private position into a public forum will normally
    harden their position and make them far less willing to change it. This
    is a basic aspect of human psychology: The more publicly you have
    committed to a position, the harder it is to ever change it, because it
    becomes invested with your reputation and idenitty. It's therefore
    usually counterproductive to republish people's communications if you
    hope to be able to persuade them to your point of view.

    There are others.

    My personal rule of thumb is that I won't publish private communication lightly, and usually (almost always) I end up deciding that the benefits
    aren't worth the costs, but I do think it's sometimes appropriate.

    The one thing I don't have any patience for is if I think someone is intentionally abusing this rule to keep me from getting help or support.
    If the private email is already that hostile, I am willing to forward it
    to anyone and any forum I choose. This thankfully has never happened to me
    in Debian, but I've had it happen occasionally in other circumstances.

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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  • From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to G. Branden Robinson on Thu May 22 09:40:02 2025
    "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> writes:
    At 2025-05-21T10:02:44-0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

    Yeah, I agree. This has been a rule of thumb for as long as I've been
    on the Internet and I've always been uncomfortable with the absolute
    version. I've also seen it abused from time to time for nearly as long
    as I've been on the Internet. It's sometimes appropriate and even
    necessary to publish private communications.

    Seconded.

    I have complained before about the poor quality of communications from
    the Community Team. I do so again to observe that the correlation
    between that poor quality and the team's penchant for broad,
    unqualified, absolute, overbearing, condescending, and paternalistic transmissions and the prohibition of disclosure they unilaterally impose
    on others with said communications is not a coincidence.

    Since this was partly in response to something I said, I just want to note
    that I personally didn't find the Community Team message to be
    overbearing, condescending, or paternalistic. It's a common piece of
    Internet advice that is often correct and this is very, very (very) far
    from the first time that I've seen it, including in the Debian context.

    The absolute version is a bit of a pet peeve of mine for Usenet reasons unrelated to Debian, which is why I said something, but it's hardly an
    unusual position.

    The Community Team as now constituted is corrosive to collegiality.

    Speaking of broad, unqualified, and absolute. :)

    I am happy to have someone occasionally post a public etiquette reminder
    or tell me directly, "hey, I think you could have handled that better." I
    don't promise to agree, but feedback is helpful. It's hard to calibrate communication so that it's effective for the people listening if I don't
    listen to them provide feedback on whether I succeeded!

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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