On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 11:40:41AM +0100, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:
Am 23.03.2022 um 09:03 schrieb Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de>:
So I leave it at stating my disagreement. I hope this much is still
allowed here.
[...]
I consider large parts of Debian to be a toxic environment to me, where
I always have to fear being attacked for just expressing my point of
view. And I disagree with double standards. Some may express their point of view without being attacked, others may not. Regardless of whether their language is respectful or not. At least that has been my
experience in the last years.
Same over here. I also think that Debian as a project has become very toxic.
It became exactly what it tried to prevent by all those initiatives
that started like 10 years ago, like Code of Conduct etc.
I see many old DDs became inactive or stepped down as a DD in the past
years, yet not many new DDs joining or being as active as the old DDs
been in the past. But this could also a misinterpretation of mine.
It is a misinterpretation.
I scrapped the data from
https://nm.debian.org/public/people/, removed
the rows with "(unknown)" in the "Since" column and the ones where
"Account Name" is "None chosen yet". The number of people joining the
project is not actually decreasing in the last 10 years. In fact, the
data seems to display a growth trend since ... all those initiatives
that started like 10 years ago, like Code of Conduct etc?¹
2000 65 ████████████████████▏
2001 104 ████████████████████████████████▏
2002 54 ████████████████▊
2003 109 █████████████████████████████████▊
2004 57 █████████████████▋
2005 62 ███████████████████▎
2006 59 ██████████████████▎
2007 71 ██████████████████████ 2008 118 ████████████████████████████████████▌
2009 109 █████████████████████████████████▊
2010 155 ███████████████████████████████████████████████▉
2011 40 ████████████▍
2012 121 █████████████████████████████████████▍
2013 64 ███████████████████▉
2014 87 ██████████████████████████▉
2015 75 ███████████████████████▎
2016 107 █████████████████████████████████▏
2017 162 ██████████████████████████████████████████████████
2018 128 ███████████████████████████████████████▋
2019 107 █████████████████████████████████▏
2020 99 ██████████████████████████████▋
2021 128 ███████████████████████████████████████▋
2022 17 █████
¹ of course correlation is not causation, I am not saying the perceived
growth is happening *because* of the CoC etc.
Mailing lists seem to be really quiet compared to older times, traffic
on IRC is also far less traffic than it used to be. Maybe
communication shifted to other media or maybe DDs are more silent
because they fear to be punished in some way or another for what they
say.
I see that being thrown around a lot, yet nobody has never received any
real sanction in the project for giving their opinion on a topic, but
for attacking, insulting, or hurting people, being told that was the
case, and the insisting in the same behavior, with that cycle repeating
itself a few times.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEst7mYDbECCn80PEM/A2xu81GC94FAmI7GzIACgkQ/A2xu81G C96pvA//Uyos4yaLusfggJSH0uAADkyeYOYd0g1Dcx6GSQxy8L4f4oO4xOcMzpjc rYu3YfI8Xegx9s04wnepSw1Yl0aMmTA/8dIW4/zHlWYhus+R7f78qYv0sXTHNk7T muuYHxPdWr6y7xRX88MCOvzwtdiEOVFFa1+KJ7zteqkCOepXrXU9V9zdqH8m8J9J Usja00Ds1m6mmkXAHex4JIhAuTQMqTRcqKa4t7V+yRxi3EAx8qbiEvpvUb5h9/w3 ZckVxLPkLzR9GjlMYrlyKLd1aq4DwqLmz0zGbgd/3/Iub01Dkh4k1h6yFIe8gqP8 Sy22uvJjnl9ARC5CEBGqTdpMYvW5bEqsIz5WZl6w8cvZGqq65K7Wx6k2ECtRDIwD v1i2Sv0iXtYk2BBfHkSCxpftQ686RTWfN8RxoeHaTvG3qArQNL0HTvhobUzSodXK x+kX08SJaIHsglnYmHEn0upcqJbWArBU3SX5caugatFwMgX7+0tW4DHivo0CEheN y8vC4Vv1xP5nKSZ13UzU660SVQLmrAZdwYqwmrk2pxvHBdv4IODVELnUZyL1r54H zaihG+Irc8cGCTkYpFVfuDoaOiKYnsvezXehG97fP4G4D4Tok5AtBvlu67gWrzMy EggBA9zQas0Eszp5gDM5SBPW3AVJpafoXfAdhdf7OJBtnZzcOnQ=
=O8/I
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)