• How do you manage debian mails on your mailbox?

    From Nilesh Patra@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 28 08:40:01 2022
    Hi,

    I have used my primary email address with folder hooks to sort out mails according to mailing lists/subjects, using folder hooks and read those folders every once in a while (depending on how involved I am with each ML/team) However, despite that I am seeing quite a bit of debian stuff in
    my inbox (sometimes there is an insane amount of noise there)
    and it distracts me when I want to be doing something else, and end up reading thread after thread which I _should_ save for later.
    (Yeah, maybe you can blame me for it :))

    So, two questions:-
    - - Do you use your primary email address for debian stuff as well,
    or is it a different one?
    - - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something important?

    --
    Best,
    Nilesh

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  • From Pierre-Elliott =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue@21:1/5 to Nilesh Patra on Sun Aug 28 10:40:01 2022
    Nilesh Patra <nilesh@nileshpatra.info> wrote on 28/08/2022 at 07:37:07+0200:

    Hi,

    I have used my primary email address with folder hooks to sort out mails according to mailing lists/subjects, using folder hooks and read those folders
    every once in a while (depending on how involved I am with each ML/team) However, despite that I am seeing quite a bit of debian stuff in
    my inbox (sometimes there is an insane amount of noise there)
    and it distracts me when I want to be doing something else, and end up reading
    thread after thread which I _should_ save for later.
    (Yeah, maybe you can blame me for it :))

    So, two questions:-
    - - Do you use your primary email address for debian stuff as well,
    or is it a different one?

    Yes, I use peb@pimeys.fr which is my main public mail since 2014.

    - - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something important?

    My previous setup, relying on mutt, and aggressive procmail filtering,
    was working nice, my inbox only had mails for my Debian address that
    really needed to land there. The issue I had was that relevant mail also
    went into some directories I regularly forgot to read and sometimes I
    found myself lagging because of that rather than because I'm lazy.

    I wanted to move to mutt + notmuch, but I did not really like it. So I
    tried emacs + notmuch but I was also unhappy.

    Then I remembered my PhD Director was using emacs + mu + mu4e. mu and
    notmuch are quite comparable (they're very efficient very fast mail indexers/searching tools), and mu4e was more of what I expected for a
    frontend in emacs.

    So, this is my setup, now, and it takes no time for mu to lookup in its
    index of my 316k mails and to grab me the ones that match best my query,
    and then it takes little time to mu4e to grab the threads around these
    mails and give them to me.

    The setup is a bit tedious the first time, though : you need to do
    either offlineimap or mbsync/isync to grab all mails locally, then you
    need to configure mu/notmuch to index those mails (indexing several
    thousands mails takes a bit of time), and then you can start to
    browse. (and you need to learn how to use these softs, too)

    Some pros:

    1. You have a full copy of your mails locally.
    2. It's still IMAP so there's synchronization of states.
    3. It's *really* fast to search and retrieve
    4. It can cope with truckloads of mails

    Some cons:

    1. The MUA is constrained (notmuch is working with few MUAs, mu, I
    aready know of mu4e for emacs)
    2. New softs to learn to use, a toolchain a bit more complex
    3. Local storage is impacted (twice, for the raw mails, and for the
    index database)
    4. With mu (IDK for notmuch), updates come sometimes with non-backward
    compatible xapian DB update, and one needs to reindex (I had to do
    it twice in a year or so).

    Cheers,
    --
    PEB

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  • From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to Nilesh Patra on Sun Aug 28 19:30:01 2022
    Nilesh Patra <nilesh@nileshpatra.info> writes:

    So, two questions:-
    - Do you use your primary email address for debian stuff as well,
    or is it a different one?

    My work mail goes to a separate inbox and a whole separate email system
    (which I have never bothered to set up protocol access to and just read
    via webmail, since my job doesn't use email very heavily). Other than
    that, all email I receive for anything in my life, including Debian, goes
    into a single inbox.

    - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something
    important?

    I've been using Gnus inside Emacs as my mail reader since, good lord,
    1994, and one of the things that it supports is what it calls "split
    rules." Gnus started life as a Usenet newsreader (which is part of what I
    love about it), and therefore thinks about the world in terms of
    newsgroups. This is very similar to but not entirely equivalent to the
    typical email folder concept, and one of the ways in which it's different
    is that Gnus (when using the nnml backend rather than something like IMAP)
    does a preprocessing step on incoming email and sorts it into the
    appropriate group first. This is basically equivalent to filter rules in
    a typical email client except they're strongly emphasized in Gnus and (at
    least in my opinion) the tools for managing them are superior. It's very similar to the way procmail works, but uses elisp as the configuration
    syntax.

    So I have a set of split rules that sort mail out into various folders
    that, because I'm an old Usenet person, are named sort of like newsgroups,
    some before spam filtering (I'm still using bogofilter, which still mostly works) and some after spam filtering. So, for example, I'm responding to
    this message in what appears in my email client to be a "group" named lists.debian.project. Your message was sorted into that group by the
    following line in my split rule configuration:

    ("list-id" "debian-project\\.lists\\.debian" "lists.debian.project")

    If someone were to send me direct email to my regular email address, that
    would show up in a group called mail.personal. But if they send direct
    mail to my Debian address, that shows up in a group called project.debian
    due to the following split rule:

    (to "rra@\\([a-z0-9-]*\\.\\)?debian\\.org" "project.debian")

    However, before that rule are a few other rules that take precedence and
    sort a few specific types of mail into different folders because I handle
    them differently:

    ("x-loop" "owner@bugs\\.debian\\.org" "project.debian.bugs")
    ("x-mailer" "reportbug" "project.debian.bugs")
    ("from" "noreply@release.debian.org" "project.debian.packages")
    ("x-debian" "dak" "project.debian.packages")
    ("x-pts-package" ".*" "project.debian.packages")
    ("x-testing-watch-package" ".*" "project.debian.packages")

    This allows me to maintain mental context when reading each "group,"
    choose not to read things that are lower priority until later, and see
    more important mail first because I split it out into higher-urgency
    groups.

    I have about 500 lines of split rules, but that's accumulated over nearly
    30 years of using this way of reading email. I update them regularly and
    I'm in the middle of changing my mind about how granular I want the split
    rules to be and consolidating more things into a smaller number of groups,
    but they don't require much work to maintain. I have a group that's
    designed to catch mail from mailing lists that I subscribed to but didn't
    add a split rule for, and I go through and add split rules for those
    messages, or things that show up in my personal inbox that I don't want
    there, from time to time. For example, right now I have about five
    messages from order notifications for takeout from local restaurants that
    are sitting in my inbox waiting for me to have five minutes to write split rules so that they sort into mail.food instead.

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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  • From Christian Kastner@21:1/5 to Nilesh Patra on Sun Aug 28 21:20:01 2022
    Hi,

    On 2022-08-28 07:37, Nilesh Patra wrote:
    - - Do you use your primary email address for debian stuff as well,
    or is it a different one?

    I mainly use two different addresses: one for personal communication,
    and one for development stuff. My @debian.org address goes towards the
    latter.

    (In addition, I have quite a few special-purpose addresses, e.g. for administrator stuff.)

    - - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something
    important?

    I use a sieve filter that just sorts stuff by mailing list. Perhaps I'm
    just used to it, but it doesn't take me long to catch up with lists,
    which I do every 1-7 days (depending how active I can be for Debian
    during any given time).

    I basically just quick-scan for interesting Subject lines, check for an interesting thread, and read if so. Everything else gets marked as read.

    It can also help to look at authors (both in good and bad ways).

    Best,
    Christian

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  • From Sean Whitton@21:1/5 to Russ Allbery on Mon Aug 29 00:50:01 2022
    Hello,

    On Sun 28 Aug 2022 at 09:53AM -07, Russ Allbery wrote:


    I have a group that's designed to catch mail from mailing lists that I subscribed to but didn't add a split rule for, and I go through and
    add split rules for those messages, or things that show up in my
    personal inbox that I don't want there, from time to time. For
    example, right now I have about five messages from order notifications
    for takeout from local restaurants that are sitting in my inbox
    waiting for me to have five minutes to write split rules so that they
    sort into mail.food instead.

    A big advantage of having such a group is that then you can feel very
    free to subscribe to random mailing lists just to make a post, and you
    know all the new mail isn't going to flood your real inbox views/groups.

    I achieve this by programmatically constructing a notmuch query of "not A
    or not B or not C ..." where A, B and C are my existing mailing list
    inboxes.

    --
    Sean Whitton

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  • From Ole Streicher@21:1/5 to Nilesh Patra on Mon Aug 29 00:50:01 2022
    Hi Nilesh,

    Nilesh Patra <nilesh@nileshpatra.info> writes:
    - - Do you use your primary email address for debian stuff as well,
    or is it a different one?

    I use a separate mail account for Debian, separated from my personal and
    from my work one.

    - - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something important?

    My way is to use an nntp gateway (sn) and read the mail with a news
    reader (emacs gnus in my case). That makes it very easy to go through
    them quickly and to not miss one.

    Works nicely for me since I started with Debian ~10 years ago, with only
    very few small drawbacks.

    Cheers

    Ole

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  • From Sean Whitton@21:1/5 to Nilesh Patra on Mon Aug 29 00:50:01 2022
    Hello,

    On Sun 28 Aug 2022 at 11:07AM +0530, Nilesh Patra wrote:


    Hi,

    I have used my primary email address with folder hooks to sort out mails according to mailing lists/subjects, using folder hooks and read those folders
    every once in a while (depending on how involved I am with each ML/team) However, despite that I am seeing quite a bit of debian stuff in
    my inbox (sometimes there is an insane amount of noise there)
    and it distracts me when I want to be doing something else, and end up reading
    thread after thread which I _should_ save for later.
    (Yeah, maybe you can blame me for it :))

    So, two questions:-
    - - Do you use your primary email address for debian stuff as well,
    or is it a different one?
    - - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something important?

    Complicated custom notmuch searches generated by a pile of Emacs Lisp.

    If everything is a virtual folder, it's easy to tweak them so that the
    Debian stuff stays where it's meant to.

    --
    Sean Whitton

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  • From Paul Wise@21:1/5 to Nilesh Patra on Mon Aug 29 06:10:01 2022
    On Sun, 2022-08-28 at 11:07 +0530, Nilesh Patra wrote:

    - - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something
    important?

    I don't know that what I do is sensible, but am moving towards a model
    where I subscribe to each mail source (list, account, alias, cron etc)
    using a different address and each is delivered to a different folder.

    To avoid being CCed on replies to alias/list mail, I try to remember to
    set Reply-To to encourage replies to not go to my inbox, however even
    when I do set Reply-To that doesn't always work, probably I need to
    also set Mail-Followup-To as well, but that isn't easy in my MUA yet.

    I read all the mail I recieve each day, often lots of it can be skimmed
    or just marked as read without reading it though. By having separate
    folders I can easily prioritise particular lists as needed. Scanning
    new thread subjects quickly helps that too.

    Then I use notmuch to index and search all the mails.

    --
    bye,
    pabs

    https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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  • From Andrey Rahmatullin@21:1/5 to Nilesh Patra on Mon Aug 29 09:00:01 2022
    On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 11:07:07AM +0530, Nilesh Patra wrote:
    I have used my primary email address with folder hooks to sort out mails according to mailing lists/subjects, using folder hooks and read those folders
    every once in a while (depending on how involved I am with each ML/team)
    That's what I do (a single address, procmail rules to put every ML into
    its own folder and also sort certain emails into several other folders).

    - - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something important?
    I skim through all subjects in ML folders, so if that's enough to know
    which emails are important I shouldn't skip them. And non-ML stuff is
    stored separately.

    --
    WBR, wRAR

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  • From Diederik de Haas@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 29 17:47:17 2022
    On zondag 28 augustus 2022 07:37:07 CEST Nilesh Patra wrote:
    So, two questions:-
    - - Do you use your primary email address for debian stuff as well,
    or is it a different one?

    I use a different one for debian stuff. I have another account for personal stuff
    and I do use email aliases quite a bit on that one after one of my aliases ended up in a security breach, so that one receives lots of spam. Now each recipient gets its own alias so when that alias gets misused, it's easy to block and it would also clearly identify the culprit.

    - - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something important?

    I use Sieve filters where the most used filter is on mailing-list-id which then gets moved into its own folder. This is similar as to what others have suggested, but with Sieve filters the sorting gets done on the server side and therefor works regardless which client I use.
    With my current mail provider I can modify those filters locally, which also makes it easy to make a local copy/backup. My previous mail provider only had
    a clunky web UI with no way to export/backup those rules.

    HTH
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  • From =?utf-8?Q?Antoine_Beaupr=C3=A9?=@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 30 18:00:01 2022
    For me, it's kind of a mess.

    I have been using notmuch-emacs for years now, but I still don't have a
    good way of filtering incoming mail based on "profiles".

    I do use tags for work, and flip between work and non-work profiles with
    some elisp functions:

    https://gitlab.com/anarcat/emacs-d/-/blob/main/notmuch-config.el#L190

    ... and assign defaults based on which workstation I'm on (home is
    non-work, for example).

    This doesn't isolate Debian stuff from work, or from home, which does
    mean I have difficulty keeping a "personal only" email profile.

    I also do not directly subscribe to Debian mailing list, partly because
    of that problem. I tend to obsessively deal with all incoming email,
    marking it all as read is considered a mandatory task for any given time
    on the computer (which is why the separation is so important). That
    means delegating things to an external todo list, or a "read it later"
    app (wallabag) as well.

    To catchup on mailing lists, I use Emacs' GNUS and GMANE (which is,
    oddly, kind of still alive if you squint sideways). Reading what others
    (sean and russ?) have been doing with GNUS, it looks like I should be reconsidering using it as my primary email client. But I've done that in
    a previous millenia and it was *hard*: GNUS is really built for
    newsgroups originally, and it shows. If you're not really hardwired for newsgroup (and I guess I lost that habit a long time ago), it feels
    backwards in a lot of ways.

    For example, to reply to your email, I didn't use GNUS, because then
    outgoing mail doesn't properly gets filed (haven't figured out *that*
    part just yet in GNUS I guess): instead it goes into a `nnfolder+archive:sent.2021-03` ... thing (group? folder?). Heck, I
    don't even know where that is actually stored. ;)

    Instead, I actually navigate to the mailing list web page, find the
    relevant email, then hit the "reply" button there which fires up my
    usual notmuch-emacs-mua email client. Not great.

    Anyways, that's what I got. I also fetch my mail over SSH, filter with
    Dovecot sieve, and all sorts of bizarre stuff you accumulate when you
    have been running your own mail servers for time that now counts in
    decades. Some of that stuff is even documented on my website:

    https://anarc.at/services/mail/

    HTH,

    A.
    --
    All governments are run by liars and nothing they say should be
    believed.
    - I. F. Stone

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  • From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to anarcat@debian.org on Tue Aug 30 19:20:01 2022
    Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:

    For example, to reply to your email, I didn't use GNUS, because then
    outgoing mail doesn't properly gets filed (haven't figured out *that*
    part just yet in GNUS I guess): instead it goes into a `nnfolder+archive:sent.2021-03` ... thing (group? folder?). Heck, I
    don't even know where that is actually stored. ;)

    It's a file in your ~/Mail directory in regular mailbox format, IIRC.

    You can configure where you want outgoing mail to go, and you can even
    make it change depending on what group you're in when you send the mail,
    but it's a little fiddly. I personally like having all my sent mail
    stored separately in dated folders, so I use this configuration, which
    stores Usenet messages in a separate set of folders than email messages
    (this also has a bunch of other settings, since other things are all
    configured through the same gnus-posting-styles variable):

    (setq gnus-posting-styles
    '(("."
    (address "eagle@eyrie.org")
    (name "Russ Allbery")
    (organization "The Eyrie")
    (signature-file "~/docs/sigs/eyrie")
    (eval
    (setq gnus-message-archive-group (rra-archive-group "mail"))))

    ((message-news-p)
    (eval
    (setq gnus-message-archive-group (rra-archive-group "news"))))

    ((or (string-match "^nnml:lists\\.debian\\." gnus-newsgroup-name)
    (string-match "^nnml:project\\.debian" gnus-newsgroup-name)
    (string-match "^nnml:lists\\.announce\\.debian"
    gnus-newsgroup-name)
    (string-match "^nndoc\\+bug-ephemeral:" gnus-newsgroup-name))
    (address "rra@debian.org")
    (signature-file "~/docs/sigs/debian"))))

    Each matching block is run in sequence, so later blocks override earlier
    ones. You can see where I could have put in a rule to put my sent Debian messages elsewhere, and I could also have set the archive group to the
    current group if I wanted.

    rra-archive-group is this small function, which just handles setting up
    the dated groups:

    ;; Used to generate the name of archive groups in the nnml hierarchy.
    (defun rra-archive-group (base)
    "Given a base string, returns a dated archive group name."
    (concat "sent." base ".unfiled." (format-time-string "%Y-%m")))

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Ole Streicher on Wed Aug 31 13:40:01 2022
    On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 09:37:36PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
    I use a separate mail account for Debian, separated from my personal and
    from my work one.

    Me too. For me this is more of a psychological/self-care decision than a technical one: I use the same mail reader (mutt) and many of the same
    support scripts/glue (mostly common muttrc, scripts and aliases around filtering with crm114, etc.) as I do for my "primary" identity, but I
    get to choose when I opt into thinking about Debian and when I don't.

    - - Do you have any sensible way to cope up with so many mails from
    different mailing lists and not potentially miss out on something important?

    My way is to use an nntp gateway (sn) and read the mail with a news
    reader (emacs gnus in my case). That makes it very easy to go through
    them quickly and to not miss one.

    I've moved to using NNTP too, Gmane's gateway in particular. I use
    (neo)mutt as packaged with the NNTP patches. It's far from an ideal
    news reader (and Gmane has some opinions about the mapping of mailing
    list names to NNTP names that don't always seem natural to me) but it
    mostly works. (I've got some TLS/SSL problems to figure out, one day.)


    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From Nilesh Patra@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 3 06:30:01 2022
    Thanks a lot to everyone who responded, both on the list and privately.
    Helped me get my sieve filter rules a bit better.
    The suggestion about gmane is also quite interesting.

    It was nice to know how my fellow DDs manage mail traffic -- thanks again!

    --
    Best,
    Nilesh

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