• how about telegram channel

    From Bartosz Fenski@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 19 21:30:01 2022
    Hey folks.

    Anyone interested in switching to some more modern channels of
    communication?

    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I
    think modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much more
    practical nowadays.

    I tried to search for "telegram" in archives of this ML but I found just
    ITPs for some random packages.

    Did we consider adding (I intentionally try to avoid word switching)
    some new channels for communication among devs? How about debian-devel
    channel on Telegram?

    I created one

    https://t.me/debian_devel

    Of course I'm willing to give admin access to it to whoever we decide is correct person / group to cover that.

    Do we even have people that could do that?

    I don't want to start flamewar. REALLY.

    regards
    Bartosz Fenski

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  • From Boyuan Yang@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 19 21:40:01 2022
    Hi,

    在 2022-07-19星期二的 21:01 +0200,Bartosz Fenski写道:
    Hey folks.

    Anyone interested in switching to some more modern channels of communication?

    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I
    think modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much more practical nowadays.

    I tried to search for "telegram" in archives of this ML but I found just ITPs for some random packages.

    Did we consider adding (I intentionally try to avoid word switching)
    some new channels for communication among devs? How about debian-devel channel on Telegram?

    I created one

    https://t.me/debian_devel

    Of course I'm willing to give admin access to it to whoever we decide is correct person / group to cover that.

    Do we even have people that could do that?

    To provide an example: unofficially there is a @debianzh telegram group that coordinates all Chinese-speaking Debian users and developers, including
    several DDs. It is also connected to OFTC IRC #debian-zh channel [1] via a bridge bot maintained by me.

    However, I have no confidence on whether we want a somehow "official" debian-devel chat group outside of IRC, or even having it bridged back to
    IRC #debian-devel channel in some way.

    [1] See https://wiki.debian.org/IRC

    Thanks,
    Boyuan Yang

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  • From Wookey@21:1/5 to Bartosz Fenski on Tue Jul 19 22:10:01 2022
    On 2022-07-19 21:01 +0200, Bartosz Fenski wrote:
    Hey folks.

    Anyone interested in switching to some more modern channels of
    communication?

    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I think modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much more practical nowadays.

    Matrix please. It's free software all the way through. We can run our
    own server. Not-mobile-phones are 1st class clients.

    I'm increasingly using it to replace IRC (with bridges if
    appropriate). I'd be happy to see debian move channels from IRC to
    Matrix. I'm not happy about moving them to Telegram or Signal, which
    are obviously a great improvement on Whatsapp but still only
    somewhat-free. Telegram has non-free back-end. Signal is presumably OK
    if you run your own back-end, but you try to use the centralised one
    then you can't build your own client (or at least it's made extremely difficult). Signal requires an active mobile phone number to use (not
    sure if telegram is the same).

    I'm fine with IRC too. It's not broken, but unless you have your own
    permanent IRC client instance somewhere it's not great. Having the
    store and-forward done by someone else (unless you want to still do it yourself) is nice.

    Wookey
    --
    Principal hats: Debian, Wookware, ARM
    http://wookware.org/

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  • From Kyle Robbertze@21:1/5 to Alastair McKinstry on Tue Jul 19 23:10:02 2022
    On 2022/07/19 22:12, Alastair McKinstry wrote:

    On 19/07/2022 21:04, Wookey wrote:
    On 2022-07-19 21:01 +0200, Bartosz Fenski wrote:
    Hey folks.

    Anyone interested in switching to some more modern channels of
    communication?

    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I
    think
    modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much more practical >>> nowadays.
    Matrix please. It's free software all the way through. We can run our
    own server. Not-mobile-phones are 1st class clients.

    I'm increasingly using it to replace IRC (with bridges if
    appropriate). I'd be happy to see debian move channels from IRC to
    Matrix. I'm not happy about moving them to Telegram or Signal, which
    are obviously a great improvement on Whatsapp but still only
    somewhat-free. Telegram has non-free back-end. Signal is presumably OK
    if you run your own back-end, but you try to use the centralised one
    then you can't build your own client (or at least it's made extremely
    difficult). Signal requires an active mobile phone number to use (not
    sure if telegram is the same).

    I'm fine with IRC too. It's not broken, but unless you have your own
    permanent IRC client instance somewhere it's not great. Having the
    store and-forward done by someone else (unless you want to still do it
    yourself) is nice.

    Wookey

    I agree.

    Importantly, Matrix is (1) federated, (2) can be bridged with other
    networks, eg IRC.

    (as well as being open and free). Its hard to see Signal inter-operating
    to others. As tech evolves, we need to stick to principles of being open
    in the sense of federation, not being centralized.

    There is the Debian Social [1] Matrix instance at https://element.debian.social. You can sign in with Salsa. Many of the
    Debian IRC channels are bridged and collected in the #debian:matrix.debian.social space.

    [1] https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianSocial

    Cheers
    Kyle

    --

    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Kyle Robbertze
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
    ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ https://wiki.debian.org/KyleRobbertze

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Alastair McKinstry@21:1/5 to Wookey on Tue Jul 19 22:40:01 2022
    On 19/07/2022 21:04, Wookey wrote:
    On 2022-07-19 21:01 +0200, Bartosz Fenski wrote:
    Hey folks.

    Anyone interested in switching to some more modern channels of
    communication?

    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I think
    modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much more practical
    nowadays.
    Matrix please. It's free software all the way through. We can run our
    own server. Not-mobile-phones are 1st class clients.

    I'm increasingly using it to replace IRC (with bridges if
    appropriate). I'd be happy to see debian move channels from IRC to
    Matrix. I'm not happy about moving them to Telegram or Signal, which
    are obviously a great improvement on Whatsapp but still only
    somewhat-free. Telegram has non-free back-end. Signal is presumably OK
    if you run your own back-end, but you try to use the centralised one
    then you can't build your own client (or at least it's made extremely difficult). Signal requires an active mobile phone number to use (not
    sure if telegram is the same).

    I'm fine with IRC too. It's not broken, but unless you have your own permanent IRC client instance somewhere it's not great. Having the
    store and-forward done by someone else (unless you want to still do it yourself) is nice.

    Wookey

    I agree.

    Importantly, Matrix is (1) federated, (2) can be bridged with other
    networks, eg IRC.

    (as well as being open and free). Its hard to see Signal inter-operating
    to others. As tech evolves, we need to stick to principles of being open
    in the sense of federation, not being centralized.

    --
    Alastair McKinstry,
    GPG: 82383CE9165B347C787081A2CBE6BB4E5D9AD3A5
    ph: +353 87 6847928 e: alastair@sceal.ie, im: @sceal.ie:mckinstry

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  • From Nilesh Patra@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 20 07:10:01 2022
    On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:51:45AM +0800, xiao sheng wen(肖盛文) wrote:
    Hi,

        Is there a GUI Desktop client to use https://element.debian.social ?

    Yes, nheko in the archive[1]

    There is element desktop as well, which is not packaged yet, and
    whose unofficial (upstream packaging) `.deb's are here[2] in case you want these (not very recommended though)

    [1]: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/nheko
    [2]: https://element.io/get-started#linux-details

    --
    Regards,
    Nilesh

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  • From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 20 07:50:01 2022
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 21:01:22 +0200, Bartosz Fenski <bartosz@fenski.pl>
    wrote:
    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I
    think modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much more >practical nowadays.

    It would also be simply easier and much more practical nowadays to
    ship an official installer that allows installation on modern hardware
    without hiding our head away in "we're fully free, but sadly we dont
    run on modern hardware unless you ditch that and use those unofficial
    images"

    That being said, I'll consider using a non-free chat service once we
    start shipping needed firmware on official media.

    Greetings
    Marc
    --
    -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " |
    Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

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  • From Ansgar@21:1/5 to Marc Haber on Wed Jul 20 09:10:01 2022
    Hi,

    On Wed, 2022-07-20 at 07:40 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
    It would also be simply easier and much more practical nowadays to
    ship an official installer that allows installation on modern hardware without hiding our head away in "we're fully free, but sadly we dont
    run on modern hardware unless you ditch that and use those unofficial
    images"

    There is a relevant event at DebConf22 for talking about this: https://debconf22.debconf.org/talks/43-fixing-the-firmware-mess/

    Ansgar

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  • From Stephan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Verb=FCcheln@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 20 11:10:01 2022
    IMHO, a (official) communcation channel for a project like Debian has
    two requirements which are not met by Telegram:

    1. Infrastructure should be controlled by the project.
    2. Protocols should be standardized and universal. Ideally, users
    should have free choice of their clients for various platforms.

    Mailing list and IRC meet those criterea. Telegram does not.

    Regards

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  • From Pierre-Elliott =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue@21:1/5 to Bartosz Fenski on Wed Jul 20 11:20:01 2022
    Bartosz Fenski <bartosz@fenski.pl> wrote on 19/07/2022 at 21:01:22+0200:

    Hey folks.

    Anyone interested in switching to some more modern channels of
    communication?

    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I
    think modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much more practical nowadays.

    I tried to search for "telegram" in archives of this ML but I found
    just ITPs for some random packages.

    Did we consider adding (I intentionally try to avoid word switching)
    some new channels for communication among devs? How about debian-devel channel on Telegram?

    I created one

    https://t.me/debian_devel

    Of course I'm willing to give admin access to it to whoever we decide
    is correct person / group to cover that.

    Do we even have people that could do that?

    I don't want to start flamewar. REALLY.

    regards

    I understand the wish to move to something "more modern". But at least
    I'd try to stay closer to FOSS decentralized solution like Mattermost or
    Rocket Chat (not sure how and if it evolved to the point of being
    usable).

    Cheers,
    --
    PEB

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  • From Nilesh Patra@21:1/5 to =?UTF-8?Q?Stephan_Verb=c3=bccheln?= on Wed Jul 20 11:20:01 2022
    To: bartosz@fenski.pl (Bartosz Fenski)
    To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --gCYVDv9ibp0TY0qKVscpLp2DA47AnZQW9
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
    Content-Language: en-US
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    On 7/20/22 2:35 PM, Stephan Verbücheln wrote:
    IMHO, a (official) communcation channel for a project like Debian has
    two requirements which are not met by Telegram:

    1. Infrastructure should be controlled by the project.
    2. Protocols should be standardized and universal. Ideally, users
    should have free choice of their clients for various platforms.

    +1

    Mailing list and IRC meet those criterea. Telegram does not.

    .... and Matrix too.


    --
    Regards,
    Nilesh


    --gCYVDv9ibp0TY0qKVscpLp2DA47AnZQW9--

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  • From Rand Pritelrohm@21:1/5 to verbuecheln@posteo.de on Wed Jul 20 12:40:01 2022
    Hi Stephan,

    Totally agree!

    Moreover, also IMHO, IRC is very light, logs are in plain text which
    can be easily parsed.
    You can have very light clients (terminal, emacs etc.).
    You can also keep a session open if you have a small SOC/board around
    (screen tmux are her for that) without BNC/ZNC honeypot things.

    No need for those fancy, bloated, full of javascript modern things
    blinking like a Christmas tree.

    Let's keep all the thing FOSS, KISS, lightweight and solid as a rock.

    Once again, those considerations are IMHO, nothing personal regarding
    the original post or request.

    Regards.


    On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 09:05:54 +0000
    Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> wrote:

    IMHO, a (official) communcation channel for a project like Debian has
    two requirements which are not met by Telegram:

    1. Infrastructure should be controlled by the project.
    2. Protocols should be standardized and universal. Ideally, users
    should have free choice of their clients for various platforms.

    Mailing list and IRC meet those criterea. Telegram does not.

    Regards




    --
    Rand Pritelrohm

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  • From Andrey Rahmatullin@21:1/5 to Rand Pritelrohm on Wed Jul 20 13:40:01 2022
    On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 12:37:25PM +0200, Rand Pritelrohm wrote:
    You can also keep a session open if you have a small SOC/board around
    (screen tmux are her for that) without BNC/ZNC honeypot things.
    Seriously.

    No need for those fancy, bloated, full of javascript modern things
    blinking like a Christmas tree.

    Let's keep all the thing FOSS, KISS, lightweight and solid as a rock.
    The irony in this email thread is so good.

    --
    WBR, wRAR

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  • From Andrey Rahmatullin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 20 13:50:01 2022
    On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:09:57AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
    I'd try to stay closer to FOSS decentralized solution like Mattermost or Rocket Chat (not sure how and if it evolved to the point of being
    usable).
    Shouldn't this have gone to -curiosa instead?

    --
    WBR, wRAR

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  • From Pirate Praveen@21:1/5 to praveen@onenetbeyond.org on Wed Jul 20 16:00:01 2022
    On Wed, Jul 20 2022 at 03:39:40 PM +02:00:00 +02:00:00, Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> wrote:


    On Tue, Jul 19 2022 at 09:01:22 PM +02:00:00 +02:00:00, Bartosz
    Fenski <bartosz@fenski.pl> wrote:
    Hey folks.

    Anyone interested in switching to some more modern channels of
    communication?

    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I
    think modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much
    more practical nowadays.

    Both Matrix and XMPP has bridges to IRC and both have built-in
    browsers.

    Correction: both have built-in bouncers

    Also IRC v3 [1] provides built-in bouncer functionality implemneted by
    Ergo ircd and it is already live in some netowrks like pirateirc.net[2]
    and ergo.chat[3] so if we can explore the possibility of updating oftc
    irc server to an ircv3 compliant server (like Ergo), that would be
    another way to solve this problem.

    [1] https://ircv3.net/
    [2] https://pirateirc.net/
    [3] https://ergo.chat/about-network

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  • From Pirate Praveen@21:1/5 to bartosz@fenski.pl on Wed Jul 20 15:50:01 2022
    On Tue, Jul 19 2022 at 09:01:22 PM +02:00:00 +02:00:00, Bartosz Fenski <bartosz@fenski.pl> wrote:
    Hey folks.

    Anyone interested in switching to some more modern channels of
    communication?

    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I
    think modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much more practical nowadays.

    Both Matrix and XMPP has bridges to IRC and both have built-in
    browsers. From philosophical point of view both Matrix and XMPP are
    fine (free software on client plus server and federated).

    Self hosting Matrix requires much more resources compared to XMPP (more
    disk space, processing, memory and constant updating). Matrix
    definitely have more appealing clients and XMPP clients still need more
    work in this area. As some one who self host both (at
    https://poddery.com), I prefer hosting XMPP over Matrix. There are also
    bridges between XMPP and Matrix too.

    For using the xmpp irc bridge, see https://irc.cheogram.com for the
    mapping syntax. For example #debconf%irc.oftc.net@irc.cheogram.com will
    connect you to #debconf on OFTC IRC.



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  • From Geert Stappers@21:1/5 to Andrey Rahmatullin on Wed Jul 20 16:50:01 2022
    On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 04:40:01PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
    On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:09:57AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bcue wrote:
    I'd try to stay closer to FOSS decentralized solution like Mattermost or Rocket Chat (not sure how and if it evolved to the point of being
    usable).
    Shouldn't this have gone to -curiosa instead?


    Please lead by example.



    Groeten
    Geert Stappers
    DD
    --
    Silence is hard to parse

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  • From Andreas Tille@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 20 17:10:01 2022
    Am Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 09:04:59PM +0100 schrieb Wookey:

    Matrix please. It's free software all the way through. We can run our
    own server. Not-mobile-phones are 1st class clients.

    This not-mobile-phone issue is very important for me.

    Signal is presumably OK if you run your own back-end,

    Not really for people like me who do not own a smartphone which is
    required for authentication. (I'm aware that I could cheat around
    with the phone of my wife - but well, I want simple access without
    cheating.)

    Kind regards

    Andreas.

    --
    http://fam-tille.de

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  • From Andreas Tille@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 20 17:00:02 2022
    Am Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 09:33:10PM +0200 schrieb Michael Biebl:

    I switched to Matrix (and its IRC bridge) as I no longer wanted to run an
    IRC bouncer.
    It works reasonably well.

    Using a "native" debian/debian-devel room would be an alternative I'd prefer over a Telegram channel.

    Since the first Debian Med online sprint we are using a matrix
    channel[1] which was choosen since people wanted to leave the channel we
    had at telegram before. Works nicely and a free protocol should be more appropriate than Telegram (which I do not refuse for some private purposes
    but it feels just wrong for Debian)

    Kind regards

    Andreas.

    [1] https://app.element.io/#/room/#debian-med:matrix.org


    --
    http://fam-tille.de

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  • From Stephan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Verb=FCcheln@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 20 18:40:01 2022
    The Signal client for desktop is a really bad example of free software.
    It does techically have a free license (or better say a jungle of
    components with various free licenses), but it is almost impossible to
    build it yourself. There is a reason why Debian does not have its own
    builds.

    Even the Flatpak people gave up on it. They are downloading the binary
    deb package from Signal and unpacking it. I am not kidding you.

    Regards
    Stephan

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  • From Stefan Kropp@21:1/5 to Pirate Praveen on Wed Jul 20 19:10:01 2022
    On Mi, 2022-07-20 15:39:40, Pirate Praveen wrote:
    On Tue, Jul 19 2022 at 09:01:22 PM +02:00:00 +02:00:00, Bartosz Fenski <bartosz@fenski.pl> wrote:
    Hey folks.

    Anyone interested in switching to some more modern channels of communication?

    I'm tired of keeping VPS just to have IRC client and to be honest I
    think modern solutions like Telegram are simply easier and much more practical nowadays.

    Both Matrix and XMPP has bridges to IRC and both have built-in browsers.
    From philosophical point of view both Matrix and XMPP are fine (free
    software on client plus server and federated).

    Self hosting Matrix requires much more resources compared to XMPP (more disk space, processing, memory and constant updating). Matrix definitely have
    more appealing clients and XMPP clients still need more work in this area.
    As some one who self host both (at https://poddery.com), I prefer hosting XMPP over Matrix. There are also bridges between XMPP and Matrix too.

    The XMPP Team is also very active by adding new upstream versions
    into Debian and upload to backports. https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=pkg-xmpp-devel%40lists.alioth.debian.org

    You can also find some more information about the upstream
    projects in the blog post from 13 July 2021: https://xmpp-team.pages.debian.net/blog/2021/07/xmpp-novelties-in-debian-11-bullseye.html

    New version are available for dino-im, gajim, profanity on
    backports. Also prosody and ejabberd server.

    biboumi is an XMPP-IRC gateway. There is also an ITP for
    spectrum2. #672699

    Maybe one footnote (I'm a XMPP user, not matrix): AFAIK Matrix says
    it's a "message store" and not a messaging protocol. I'm not sure
    if a "message store" is required. I think a messaging protocol is
    fine.

    For using the xmpp irc bridge, see https://irc.cheogram.com for the mapping syntax. For example #debconf%irc.oftc.net@irc.cheogram.com will connect you to #debconf on OFTC IRC.

    --
    Diese E-Mail wurde von einem Debian GNU/Linux System gesendet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Nicholas Guriev@21:1/5 to Bartosz Fenski on Wed Jul 20 21:06:25 2022
    Copy: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 21:01:22 +0200 Bartosz Fenski wrote:
    I created one

    https://t.me/debian_devel

    Of course I'm willing to give admin access to it to whoever we decide is correct person / group to cover that.

    You created broadcasting channel. Only you and admins can post there.

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  • From Bartosz Fenski@21:1/5 to Nicholas Guriev on Thu Jul 21 12:20:01 2022
    Yeah I've just changed it to group instead of broadcasting channel.

    regards
    Bartosz Fenski


    On 20.07.2022 20:06, Nicholas Guriev wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 21:01:22 +0200 Bartosz Fenski wrote:
    I created one

    https://t.me/debian_devel

    Of course I'm willing to give admin access to it to whoever we decide is
    correct person / group to cover that.
    You created broadcasting channel. Only you and admins can post there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?B?eGlhbyBzaGVuZyB3ZW4o6IKW5@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 25 10:50:01 2022
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------js2XFfFRLAmNYsekwKeHEDrg
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi,

        I had test nheko and element[1], unfortunately,  they can't use in China mainland.
    I think it's homeserver is also blocked by China GFW.

    I can use IRC now, also can use Firefox to visit  https://element.debian.social/.



    [1] element error infos:
     Failed to start
    Your Element is misconfigured
    Invalid homeserver discovery response


    Thanks!

    在 2022/7/20 13:06, Nilesh Patra 写道:
    On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:51:45AM +0800, xiao sheng wen(肖盛文) wrote:
    Hi,

        Is there a GUI Desktop client to use https://element.debian.social ?
    Yes, nheko in the archive[1]

    There is element desktop as well, which is not packaged yet, and
    whose unofficial (upstream packaging) `.deb's are here[2] in case you want these (not very recommended though)

    [1]: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/nheko
    [2]: https://element.io/get-started#linux-details


    --
    肖盛文 xiao sheng wen
    https://www.atzlinux.com 《铜豌豆 Linux》基于 Debian 的 Linux 中文 桌面 操作系统
    Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=atzlinux%40sina.com Debian salsa: https://salsa.debian.org/atzlinux-guest
    GnuPG Public Key: 0x00186602339240CB


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