• Re: Kernel 6.13 & choice Init or SystemD for the user on Debian 13

    From Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 22 08:20:01 2024
    Hi,

    Quoting phil995511 - (2024-11-22 02:29:31)
    Only kernel 6.13 will support the new GPUs that will be released in early 2025, the new Intel CPUs, the same for a whole bunch of new hardware...

    To be satisfied with kernel 6.12 would in my opinion be a big strategic mistake jeopardizing compatibility with hardware new or old Debian users.

    every new kernel release brings new features. Different users find different features differently important to them. You could make the same argument for kernel 6.14 or 6.15 which will also bring new features and then you'd be waiting for *the one* release forever.

    Besides, kernel 6.12 is not yet officialized as LTS and if Debian slightly pushes back the release date of version 13 to adopt kernel 6.13, kernel.org will elect kernel 6.13 as LTS and not 6.12 !!

    Source please.

    And backport takes several months after the release of a new edition of Debian to make new kernels available. On the other hand, the kernels offered in backport are not always very recent either, sometimes they are not even supported anymore on the security side...

    This is just not true. Uploads to backports usually happen within *days* not months after the versioned transitioned to testing. Please refrain from making false claims to support your argument. If you do not even want to wait the few days it takes, join the kernel team and help them do the necessary work.

    Regarding the choice of Init or SytemD, I believe it is up to the end user to choose whether he wants to keep the basic philosophy of Unix by choosing to use Init or if he prefers to use SystemD which is a product developed by a company owned by Read Hat, a giant in the commercial computer industry.

    Devuan offers users several init managers to choose from, this is what
    Debian should have offered since Debian 8 in 2015... you should never have argued about this and made the Debian project lose developers who preferred to stay true to their ideas and who had to create Devuan for that.

    This is a project run by volunteers. If you want to change something, come and join us and do the work that you think is right but please bear in mind that your work is a part of a greater whole and we are doing this work together and not against each other. If you dislike the greater whole, then this is exactly what derivatives are for. I maintain a Debian derivative myself because it makes doing things easier which would not fit into Debian. I don't think anybody on this list would have a bad feeling if you decide for yourself that Devuan fits your needs better than Debian.

    Thanks!

    cheers, josch
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  • From Richard Lewis@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 22 19:10:01 2024
    phil995511 - <phil995511@gmail.com> writes:

    you say using backports is for advanced users yet you want users to be
    able to choose their init systems? that's backwards. most users do not
    care about the init system they use. adding backports and installing a
    new kernel is not actually that difficult to do, and is easier than
    switching away from non-systemd. Both of which are already possible in
    debian.


    As for the availability via backport of more recent kernels, this option is reserved for advanced users, so it is far from accessible to everyone !!!

    Devuan offers users several init managers to choose from, this is what
    Debian should have offered since Debian 8 in 2015... you should never have argued about this and made the Debian project lose developers who preferred to stay true to their ideas and who had to create Devuan for that.

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  • From Andrey Rakhmatullin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 22 20:40:02 2024
    On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 02:29:31AM +0100, phil995511 - wrote:
    Devuan offers users several init managers to choose from, this is what
    Debian should have offered since Debian 8 in 2015... you should never have argued about this and made the Debian project lose developers who preferred to stay true to their ideas and who had to create Devuan for that.

    Please just use Devuan.

    --
    WBR, wRAR

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  • From Steve Langasek@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 22 21:20:01 2024
    On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 02:29:31AM +0100, phil995511 - wrote:
    Devuan offers users several init managers to choose from, this is what
    Debian should have offered since Debian 8 in 2015... you should never have argued about this and made the Debian project lose developers who preferred to stay true to their ideas and who had to create Devuan for that.

    Devuan made it clear early on that they were unwilling to allow any runtime dependencies on any part of systemd (except udev?). This makes it quite incompatible with Debian's goals and I see no prospect of Debian making the changes necessary to satisfy the Devuan developers that a separate distro is
    no longer needed.

    --
    Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org

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  • From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 24 12:20:02 2024
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 11:41:48 -0800, Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org>
    wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 02:29:31AM +0100, phil995511 - wrote:
    Devuan offers users several init managers to choose from, this is what
    Debian should have offered since Debian 8 in 2015... you should never have >> argued about this and made the Debian project lose developers who preferred >> to stay true to their ideas and who had to create Devuan for that.

    Devuan made it clear early on that they were unwilling to allow any runtime >dependencies on any part of systemd (except udev?). This makes it quite >incompatible with Debian's goals and I see no prospect of Debian making the >changes necessary to satisfy the Devuan developers that a separate distro is >no longer needed.

    Additionally, as a Debian Developer, I am pretty happy that I don't
    need to write, debug and maintain init scripts any more. Continuing
    sysv support means having to write, debug and maintain init scripts
    AND systemd units. I would not like having to do this, it's a waste of
    my valuable time.

    Greetings
    Marc

    P.S.: I am not a systemd fanboi, but I clearly see the advantages of
    Debian's decisions and would rather not revisit those.
    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
    Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

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