• Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters

    From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to Debian Developers on Wed Feb 26 11:21:42 2025
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    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.

    Currently, the code of conduct for the mailing lists says:

    "Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion. Lines longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated output (e.g., ls -l).”

    https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

    I started thinking about this a few weeks ago when I received an email from a Debian Developer complaining that replies from my email client (KMail) looked odd because they truncated quoted lines in a way that did not lay out pleasingly. This was
    because I had set KMail to wrap lines at 80 characters.

    The purpose of that email was to explain that KMail should be more intelligent in the way it wrapped the quoted lines, which is a fair point, although KMail handles things better than some of the emails I receive on the lists from time to time.

    However, from a technical perspective, having the *sending* program decide where line breaks should be in an email doesn’t seem like the correct approach to me because, 1) the sending program does not know the screen width of the receiving program, and
    2) there is large variability in the screen width of receiving devices, including cell phones who are often less than 80 characters wide.

    I understand that there are historical reasons for the 80 character limit, but I believe that it is time to reassess best practices. My recommendation is that sending email programs should not wrap text at an arbitrary column, and that all wrapping of
    text should be handled by the receiving program, which is, of course, the only program that has insight into the width of the screen where the email is currently being displayed.

    I have composed this email without an arbitrary column wrap, so that those receiving it can see how it is handled by their various clients and devices.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

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    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Currently, the code of conduct for the mailing lists says:</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&quot;Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion. Lines longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated output (e.g., ls -l).”</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-b
  • From Andrea Pappacoda@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Wed Feb 26 20:00:01 2025
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    Hi Soren,

    On Wed Feb 26, 2025 at 7:21 PM CET, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that
    emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.

    Most GUI clients handle long lines just fine. Some others, like the aerc
    TUI client (which I use), don't (by default).

    It is worth noting that some people in the past tried to solve this
    wrapping issue with a proposed standard, [RFC 3676], which defines "Format=Flowed" emails. Such messages requires client capable of
    composing them, and many do, but some popular ones don't.

    In format=flowed messages, lines are hard-wrapped "transparently". Long
    lines are wrapped with line breaks, but with a trailing space. Receiving clients then consider lines with a trailing space a single logical line,
    and are free to re-wrap as they prefer. If you receiving client does not support format=flowed, though, you'll just see a message wrapped at 72
    cols.

    Choosing between sending long lines and flowed text is, to me,
    a trade-off. Format=flowed requires sender support, but looks good on
    "dumb" clients. Long lines do not require any special sender support,
    but looks odd "dumb" clients.

    In any case, I feel discussing about RFC 3676 might be a bit off-topic
    on -devel, so I'll end it here.

    I started thinking about this a few weeks ago when I received an email
    from a Debian Developer complaining that replies from my email client (KMail) looked odd because they truncated quoted lines in a way that
    did not lay out pleasingly. This was because I had set KMail to wrap
    lines at 80 characters.

    (sorry, I didn't mean to haunt your thoughts)

    Bye!

    [RFC 3676]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3676

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  • From Jeremy Stanley@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Wed Feb 26 19:40:01 2025
    On 2025-02-26 11:21:42 -0700 (-0700), Soren Stoutner wrote:
    [...]
    I have composed this email without an arbitrary column wrap, so
    that those receiving it can see how it is handled by their various
    clients and devices.

    I'll note that I'm somewhat of a traditionalist, reading list mail
    (all E-mail really) with the current version of mutt from sid in an
    emulated 80x24 character terminal, because I spent years in front of
    serial terminals designed for that geometry (80x25 really but the
    bottom row is occupied by the terminal's status bar) and got overly
    accustomed to it.

    Mutt's default configuration handles non-wrapped long lines fairly
    gracefully, wrapping them at the last identifiable space character
    before the terminal's margin, or at the last character if it's an
    unbroken "word" longer than the terminal width, but then prefixing
    subsequent wrapped lines with a "+" to indicate they were all
    actually part of the same line originally. The only real hassle is
    if I want to copy a very long URL out of a message, I either need to
    piecemeal reassemble it from the lines that URL is spread across or
    pipe the body into another tool that doesn't wrap anything. It's
    likely there are config options for Mutt to alleviate this, I just
    haven't bothered to go digging.

    For the record, the editor I compose my messages in is set to wrap
    at 68 columns in order to avoid my lines being too long when quoted
    several indent levels deep, but I do sometimes manually re-flow any
    quoted material I haven't trimmed from others' messages if I see
    they're near to or exceeding my 80-character terminal margin.
    --
    Jeremy Stanley

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  • From Marco d'Itri@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Wed Feb 26 20:20:01 2025
    On Feb 26, Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> wrote:

    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that
    emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.
    I am opposed.

    --
    ciao,
    Marco

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  • From Bastian Blank@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Wed Feb 26 21:10:01 2025
    On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 11:21:42AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.

    You MUA lacks support for RFC 2646, which is 25 years old.

    Also it creates Message-Id without a proper FQDN.

    Please just leave us alone.

    Bastian

    --
    Violence in reality is quite different from theory.
    -- Spock, "The Cloud Minders", stardate 5818.4

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  • From Marvin Renich@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 26 21:40:01 2025
    * Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> [250226 13:39]:
    The only real hassle is
    if I want to copy a very long URL out of a message, I either need to piecemeal reassemble it from the lines that URL is spread across or
    pipe the body into another tool that doesn't wrap anything. It's
    likely there are config options for Mutt to alleviate this, I just
    haven't bothered to go digging.

    Try urlscan.

    ...Marvin

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  • From Jeremy Stanley@21:1/5 to Marvin Renich on Wed Feb 26 22:10:02 2025
    On 2025-02-26 15:30:48 -0500 (-0500), Marvin Renich wrote:
    * Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> [250226 13:39]:
    The only real hassle is
    if I want to copy a very long URL out of a message, I either need to piecemeal reassemble it from the lines that URL is spread across or
    pipe the body into another tool that doesn't wrap anything. It's
    likely there are config options for Mutt to alleviate this, I just
    haven't bothered to go digging.

    Try urlscan.

    Thanks, yes that's what I mean by piping the body into another tool.
    Both urlscan and the older urlview are probably fine if mutt is
    running on your local system, in my case it's running on a remote
    system and I just want to be able to copy the URLs from my terminal
    without anything fancy trying to interpret or truncate/abbreviate
    them, react to my pointer, et cetera.

    Setting a macro to pipe the body through less or vi(ew) has been
    working well enough for my needs, but some quick testing indicates
    that if I override markers to no in my muttrc to get rid of the "+"
    at the start of wrapped lines, that basically solves the long URL
    copying problem, albeit at the expense of no longer knowing whether
    mutt wrapped a line for me (not a huge loss, in my opinion).
    --
    Jeremy Stanley

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  • From Jeremy Sowden@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Thu Feb 27 00:10:01 2025
    On 2025-02-26, at 11:21:42 -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that
    emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.

    No, thanks.

    J.

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 27 10:30:01 2025
    Can we strongly recommend format=flowed instead?

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From Andrej Shadura@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Thu Feb 27 09:40:01 2025
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    Hello,

    On Wed, 26 Feb 2025, at 19:21, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.


    Yes, please. Long due.

    --
    Cheers,
    Andrej

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    <!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div>Hello,<br></div><div><br></div><div>On Wed, 26 Feb 2025, at 19:21, Soren Stoutner wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="
    qt" style=""><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;">The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.<br></p></
    blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, please. Long due.<br></div><div><br></div><div id="sig107596680"><div class="signature">--&nbsp;</div><div class="signature">Cheers,</div><div class="signature">&nbsp; Andrej</div></div><div><br></div></body></html>
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  • From Vincent Lefevre@21:1/5 to Jeremy Stanley on Thu Feb 27 12:10:01 2025
    On 2025-02-26 18:38:41 +0000, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
    Mutt's default configuration handles non-wrapped long lines fairly gracefully, wrapping them at the last identifiable space character
    before the terminal's margin, or at the last character if it's an
    unbroken "word" longer than the terminal width, but then prefixing
    subsequent wrapped lines with a "+" to indicate they were all
    actually part of the same line originally. The only real hassle is
    if I want to copy a very long URL out of a message, I either need to piecemeal reassemble it from the lines that URL is spread across or
    pipe the body into another tool that doesn't wrap anything. It's
    likely there are config options for Mutt to alleviate this, I just
    haven't bothered to go digging.

    Unset the $markers variable (but you will lose the "long line"
    information also for the other lines, which might not be really
    important; alternatively, you may define a key binding to toggle
    the $markers setting).

    --
    Vincent Lefvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
    100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
    Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Pascaline project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

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  • From Blair Noctis@21:1/5 to Debian Developers on Thu Feb 27 12:10:01 2025
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    It's kinda funny how in this world in 2025, where and when all computers possess processing power several magnitudes higher than Apollo Guidance Computer, some still believe that text should be pre-formatted to a fixed length no matter what, because
    their devices and/or reading facilities are, just like AGC, made for and only for that fixed length, obviously unable to rearrange/re-format it, while others with devices which have smaller screen estate, yet re-format and render other, more complex
    content no problemo, or just like their readings put at a different display length, actually struggle to read the hard-wrapped-at-80-then-wrapped-again text.

    I also appreciate how some object without a reason a proposal, content aside, with at least their reasoning and considerations laid out.

    --
    Sdrager,
    Blair Noctis

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  • From Vincent Lefevre@21:1/5 to Blair Noctis on Thu Feb 27 12:20:01 2025
    On 2025-02-27 19:01:04 +0800, Blair Noctis wrote:
    It's kinda funny how in this world in 2025, where and when all
    computers possess processing power several magnitudes higher than
    Apollo Guidance Computer, some still believe that text should be pre-formatted to a fixed length no matter what, because their
    devices and/or reading facilities are, just like AGC, made for and
    only for that fixed length, obviously unable to rearrange/re-format
    it, while others with devices which have smaller screen estate, yet
    re-format and render other, more complex content no problemo, or
    just like their readings put at a different display length, actually
    struggle to read the hard-wrapped-at-80-then-wrapped-again text.

    At least, 80-column text remains readable even on small screens,
    contrary to most PDFs, which are also preformatted and are often
    used nowadays (including as email contents), even when this is not
    justified.

    --
    Vincent Lefvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
    100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
    Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Pascaline project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

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  • From Holger Levsen@21:1/5 to Tino Didriksen on Thu Feb 27 13:30:02 2025
    On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 12:50:30PM +0100, Tino Didriksen wrote:
    Wholeheartedly agree. Forced line wrapping is archaic, and not just in emails. Any viewer or editor worth anything can display long lines in a way that flows and indents with surroundings.

    format=flowed would be neat, if it was widely implemented. It is not. And,
    we shouldn't require specific software to use the mailing lists.

    your 2nd paragraph contradicts the 1st.


    --
    cheers,
    Holger

    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
    ⠈⠳⣄

    Die meisten Menschen können sich eher das Aussterben der Menschheit vorstellen als das Ende von Herrschaftsideologie und Kapitalismus. (@elektra_42)

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  • From Timo =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hling?=@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 27 12:40:01 2025
    * Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> [2025-02-27 09:21]:
    Can we strongly recommend format=flowed instead?
    +1

    I've been using format=flowed for quite a while now, and it works
    fine in general. The BTS website lacks rendering support for it,
    which is the one place where flowed formatting would be useful for
    me, but thanks to graceful degradation I'm not worse off than
    without it.


    Cheers
    Timo

    --
    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ╭────────────────────────────────────────────────────╮
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ │ Timo Röhling │
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1 23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │
    ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ ╰────────────────────────────────────────────────────╯

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  • From Tino Didriksen@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Thu Feb 27 13:00:01 2025
    On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 at 19:21, Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> wrote:

    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.


    Wholeheartedly agree. Forced line wrapping is archaic, and not just in
    emails. Any viewer or editor worth anything can display long lines in a way that flows and indents with surroundings.

    format=flowed would be neat, if it was widely implemented. It is not. And,
    we shouldn't require specific software to use the mailing lists.

    -- Tino Didriksen

    <div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 at 19:21, Soren Stoutner &lt;<a href="mailto:soren@debian.org">soren@debian.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div></div><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
    0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



    <div><p style="margin:0px">The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.</p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Wholeheartedly agree. Forced line
    wrapping is archaic, and not just in emails. Any viewer or editor worth anything can display long lines in a way that flows and indents with surroundings.</div><div><br></div><div>format=flowed would be neat, if it was widely implemented. It is not. And,
    we shouldn&#39;t require specific software to use the mailing lists.</div><div><br></div><div>-- Tino Didriksen</div><div><br></div></div></div>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Wanderer@21:1/5 to Andrej Shadura on Thu Feb 27 14:10:01 2025
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
    On 2025-02-27 at 07:46, Andrej Shadura wrote:

    Hello,

    On Thu, 27 Feb 2025, at 12:14, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

    At least, 80-column text remains readable even on small screens,
    contrary to most PDFs, which are also preformatted and are often
    used nowadays (including as email contents), even when this is not
    justified.

    That’s not entirely true: 80-column text often doesn’t fit on mobile phone screens, and because it’s pre-formatted, it cannot be reflowed easily, so it ends up an unreadable mess of alternating long and
    short lines (the short ones being the result of long ones being
    wrapped but not being long enough to actually fill the line).

    That *is* a pain to read, agreed. I encounter it on non-mobile as well -
    even with a much wider screen - in replies sent by people whose mail
    software doesn't handle rewrapping paragraphs as a block, rather than
    just cutting each "too-long" line into two, and who don't fix that by
    hand before sending.

    I still prefer that disadvantage over the disadvantage(s) of
    unlimited-length lines.

    I very much prefer long non-preformatted lines to be wrapped by the
    device itself to match the screen it has.

    In my case, my screen *is* very much larger, and the mail-reading window
    (for a variety of reasons, some of which are probably just inertia, some
    of which aren't and would be hard to change because they're on the
    design level) is as well. That latter is for multiple reasons; the main
    one is because I need the width for the list-of-messages pane, with its
    variety of columns, and there's nothing else to be done with that width
    for the message-body ("reading") pane, nor any other viable place in the
    window to put that latter pane where it wouldn't need to take up that
    same width.

    But I still don't want long lines, and find them hard to read, at the
    lengths that are presented by that combination of screen and window
    widths.


    I would be greatly displeased by a move to stop disfavoring lines longer
    than about what the existing conventions call for; there are already far
    too many cases where people send mail that disregards those
    conventions, and that already adds to my cost to read such mails, to the
    point that I treat seeing it as one of the weights on the side of the
    scale for the decision to just ignore that mail as not worth my time to
    read.

    (I do recognize, however, that the flip side of that may also be true
    for people who read in different environments and find the
    hard-line-wrapped mails to be harder to read in those environments.)

    --
    The Wanderer

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
    persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
    progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw


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  • From Colin Watson@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Thu Feb 27 14:40:02 2025
    On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 11:21:42AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that
    emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be >dropped.
    [...]
    I understand that there are historical reasons for the 80 character
    limit, but I believe that it is time to reassess best practices. My >recommendation is that sending email programs should not wrap text at
    an arbitrary column, and that all wrapping of text should be handled by
    the receiving program, which is, of course, the only program that has
    insight into the width of the screen where the email is currently being >displayed.

    I have composed this email without an arbitrary column wrap, so that
    those receiving it can see how it is handled by their various clients
    and devices.

    I found your email difficult to read. I mostly read email in mutt in a
    tmux shared with my IRC client, so I normally prefer to keep that window
    fully maximized for the benefit of IRC, but email tends to be a bit hard
    to read if it actually takes up the full width there. Sender-wrapped or format=flowed (which mutt renders quite nicely by default these days)
    works well for me as a receiver; unwrapped doesn't really.

    This thread did, however, cause me to work out how to configure my
    mailer to send format=flowed, since it does look as though that's
    somewhat nicer for receivers who aren't using the same kind of dinosaur
    setup as I am, and support seems to have improved since the last time I
    looked at this eons ago. I needed this in ~/.config/nvim/init.vim
    (should also work in ~/.vimrc):

    au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w

    And this in ~/.muttrc:

    set text_flowed

    That seems to work pretty well. I reflowed the parts of your message
    that I quoted here to match.

    --
    Colin Watson (he/him) [cjwatson@debian.org]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrej Shadura@21:1/5 to Vincent Lefevre on Thu Feb 27 13:50:02 2025
    Hello,

    On Thu, 27 Feb 2025, at 12:14, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
    At least, 80-column text remains readable even on small screens,
    contrary to most PDFs, which are also preformatted and are often
    used nowadays (including as email contents), even when this is not
    justified.

    That’s not entirely true: 80-column text often doesn’t fit on mobile phone screens, and because it’s pre-formatted, it cannot be reflowed easily, so it ends up an unreadable mess of alternating long and short lines (the short ones being the result
    of long ones being wrapped but not being long enough to actually fill the line).

    I very much prefer long non-preformatted lines to be wrapped by the device itself to match the screen it has.

    --
    Cheers,
    Andrej

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Tino Didriksen on Thu Feb 27 14:50:01 2025
    On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 11:50 AM GMT, Tino Didriksen wrote:
    format=flowed would be neat, if it was widely implemented. It is not.
    And, we shouldn't require specific software to use the mailing lists.

    We could widen its implementation, at least with software we supply (and things like the BTS or our own mailing list archives)


    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Andrej Shadura on Thu Feb 27 14:50:01 2025
    On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 12:46 PM GMT, Andrej Shadura wrote:
    That’s not entirely true: 80-column text often doesn’t fit on mobile phone screens, and because it’s pre-formatted, it cannot be reflowed easily, so it ends up an unreadable mess of alternating long and short
    lines (the short ones being the result of long ones being wrapped but
    not being long enough to actually fill the line).

    *IFF* your reader supports format=flowed, you can have the best of both worlds. Essentially you wrap at a column <80 for "legacy" reasons, but
    end each line that is part of a continuous sentence/paragraph with ' '. Clients supporting format=flowed then know which lines can be conjoined
    and which cannot, and can wrap to the end-user's preference.

    We could even survey what MUAs people care about and settle on a column
    to wrap at for those in the set which don't support format=flowed.

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeremy Stanley@21:1/5 to Colin Watson on Thu Feb 27 15:20:02 2025
    On 2025-02-27 13:29:59 +0000 (+0000), Colin Watson wrote:
    [...]
    I mostly read email in mutt in
    a tmux shared with my IRC client, so I normally prefer to keep that
    window fully maximized for the benefit of IRC, but email tends to be a
    bit hard to read if it actually takes up the full width there. >Sender-wrapped or format=flowed (which mutt renders quite nicely by
    default these days) works well for me as a receiver; unwrapped doesn't >really.

    This thread did, however, cause me to work out how to configure my
    mailer to send format=flowed, since it does look as though that's
    somewhat nicer for receivers who aren't using the same kind of
    dinosaur setup as I am, and support seems to have improved since the
    last time I looked at this eons ago. I needed this in >~/.config/nvim/init.vim (should also work in ~/.vimrc):

    au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w

    And this in ~/.muttrc:

    set text_flowed

    That seems to work pretty well.
    [...]

    Thanks for the config details! Turns out we use basically the same
    workflow (I run Mutt with vim as my message composer along several
    other console-based client apps, including but not limited to IRC,
    in persistent tmux session on a remote cloud VM), so this was
    extremely helpful for me as well.

    I'm composing and sending this with your suggestions applied, seems
    to be working well so far. Thanks again!
    --
    Jeremy Stanley

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  • From =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lien_COUDERC?=@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 27 15:40:02 2025
    See below how your message ends up being wrapped in my mobile client.

    That's readable for some strange/low value of $readable.

    Agreed with Jonathan that if we can have senders and receivers understand fixed-but-flowing lines, then good for everyone.

    But that's obviously not the case currently and if I need to choose my preference goes to line break is a line break vs. a 4000-word RFC explains when a line break is a line break.



    Le 27 février 2025 12:14:18 GMT+01:00, Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> a

    At least, 80-column text remains readable
    even on small screens,
    contrary to most PDFs, which are also
    preformatted and are often
    used nowadays (including as email contents),
    even when this is not
    justified.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrej Shadura@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 27 16:10:01 2025
    Hello,

    On Thu, 27 Feb 2025, at 15:18, Aurélien COUDERC wrote:
    See below how your message ends up being wrapped in my mobile client.

    That's readable for some strange/low value of $readable.

    Le 27 février 2025 12:14:18 GMT+01:00, Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> a

    At least, 80-column text remains readable
    even on small screens,
    contrary to most PDFs, which are also
    preformatted and are often
    used nowadays (including as email contents),
    even when this is not
    justified.

    This looks like Haiku :)

    80 columns on small screens.
    Strange value of readable.
    Justified?

    --
    Cheers,
    Andrej

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Colin Watson on Thu Feb 27 17:00:01 2025
    On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 1:29 PM GMT, Colin Watson wrote:
    And this in ~/.muttrc:

    set text_flowed

    That seems to work pretty well. I reflowed the parts of your message
    that I quoted here to match.

    If you happen to use edit_headers, you *might* want something like this
    (no idea if mutt has adopted it yet, ensures no trailing space on empty
    header lines):

    https://github.com/neomutt/neomutt/pull/1164


    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Holger Levsen@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Thu Feb 27 18:40:02 2025
    On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 09:48:44AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    Given the above four points, I propose the line from the code of conduct quoted above be
    changed to read:

    lol, 22h after proposing to change 20 year old habbits, you still agree with your idea. i'm not impressed. also you seem to expect other people need to explain the status quo to you, when you propose to change it. this is not how things work.

    and now that I'm writing this mail to this sad thread I also wont to applaud your courage to break the rules in your very proposal to change them. (1st mail
    of this thread.) - i mean, why have rules at all?

    (the last paragraph is sarcasm.)


    --
    cheers,
    Holger

    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
    ⠈⠳⣄

    Make lying wrong again.

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  • From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Thu Feb 27 22:20:01 2025
    On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 11:21:42AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    I started thinking about this a few weeks ago when I received an email from a Debian Developer complaining that replies from my email client (KMail) looked odd because they truncated quoted lines in a way that did not lay out pleasingly. This was
    because I had set KMail to wrap lines at 80 characters.

    I have been using Kmail for years without requiring my communication
    partners to change their habits.

    I am one of those mutt dinosaurs. While mutt displays e-mails with long
    lines just fine, handing them over to the editor for answering leaves
    the long lines to the editor. If I wanted just to quote part of your
    message above, or even insert my comments between two of your sentences,
    that would be manual work.

    Can this be done even better?

    Or is this just another discussion whether we should continue using
    mailing lists? I mean, Internet humanity hasn't been able to settle on
    one kind of quoting referenced messages (with the in my opinion sensible
    way having lost to the useless top posting method).

    However, from a technical perspective, having the *sending* program decide where line breaks should be in an email doesn’t seem like the correct approach to me because, 1) the sending program does not know the screen width of the receiving program,
    and 2) there is large variability in the screen width of receiving devices, including cell phones who are often less than 80 characters wide.

    The sending program also knows more what the writing person wants to
    say.

    I have composed this email without an arbitrary column wrap, so that those receiving it can see how it is handled by their various clients and devices.

    Clumsy to read, impossible to reply to.

    Greetings
    Marc

    -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Colin Watson@21:1/5 to Jonathan Dowland on Thu Feb 27 23:20:01 2025
    On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 03:53:41PM +0000, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
    On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 1:29 PM GMT, Colin Watson wrote:
    And this in ~/.muttrc:

    set text_flowed

    That seems to work pretty well. I reflowed the parts of your
    message that I quoted here to match.

    If you happen to use edit_headers, you *might* want something like
    this (no idea if mutt has adopted it yet, ensures no trailing space on
    empty header lines):

    https://github.com/neomutt/neomutt/pull/1164

    Doesn't affect me as I don't use formatoptions=a, but good to be
    forewarned about, thanks!

    --
    Colin Watson (he/him) [cjwatson@debian.org]

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  • From Wookey@21:1/5 to Colin Watson on Fri Feb 28 02:00:01 2025
    On 2025-02-27 13:29 +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
    On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 11:21:42AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.

    I admire your gumption for making such a proposal. :-)

    A few years ago I would have objected strenously, as mutt+jed did not deal
    well with long lines, and it was a pain to read. I have even been
    known to berate people sending me such email.

    However it seems to work fine these days so whilst long lines are harder to read, it's not a big deal.

    I too am using the 'mutt in tmux/mosh on a remote machine' method to
    read my mail. (I do really like the smart reflowing that emacs can do,
    even with indented mails). The biggest problem with this method these
    days is not text wraping, but enormously long multiline URLs,
    especially when buried in incomprehensible modern HTML, and multipart
    mails whern the text/plain part is actually just another copy of the
    bloody HTML part - an infuriating thing that is becoming more common).

    I know that others can find wrapped text difficult to deal with
    because they are just not used to it these days. If you send an
    article in in that form, it is likely to retain unwanted wrapping
    linefeeds in the final version because taking them all out is hard for
    normals (they just do it by hand in word/indesign/whatever and miss
    the ones that happen to align linewraps)..

    And in-line answered mail with indenting carets can also end up as
    completely mashed garbage all flowed onto one big para at the far end
    which is very hard indeed to read. This is other people's crappy
    tools, but if one can make allowance for that without too much trouble
    them one should.

    So another vote for text=flowed here as a recommended default. And if
    people want to use unwrapped lines, then I won't exactly like it, but
    I'll manage. I already do for quite a lot of email.

    This thread did, however, cause me to work out how to configure my mailer to send format=flowed,

    This is probably the most useful email in the thread. Cheers.
    I have added
    set text_flowed
    to my mutt
    but I think I need to know the equivalent to
    au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w
    for
    emacs particularly, but also zile, jed and mcedit (all of which get used from time to time).
    Anyone know?

    Wookey
    --
    Principal hats: Debian, Wookware
    http://wookware.org/

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to Debian Developers on Thu Feb 27 09:48:44 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart4607149.8F6SAcFxjW
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    On Wednesday, February 26, 2025 11:21:42 AM MST Soren Stoutner wrote:
    The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.

    This email has sparked an interesting discussion, which is what I was hoping for. So far, I
    would summarize the points made as follows.

    1. It would be really cool if all MUAs supported format=flowed, but they don’t, and we
    shouldn’t require special software to interact with the Debian mailing lists.

    2. Some MUAs don’t wrap text correctly with their default values, but so far they all seem
    to have settings that support it.

    3. Some people find it difficult to read long lines of text, but they can adjust their viewing
    windows or display settings to make the lines shorter if they like.

    4. Some people just don’t like change, but do not provide an argument for maintaining
    things at the status quo.

    Currently, the code of conduct for the mailing lists says:

    "Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion. Lines longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated output (e.g., ls -l).”

    https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

    Given the above four points, I propose the line from the code of conduct quoted above be
    changed to read:

    “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped by the sender at
    a particular column, but those sending emails may wrap them if they choose.”

    I like this wording because it does not prevent people from wrapping their emails if they
    want. Although I think the superior options for the entire ecosystem would be that no
    emails are wrapped by the sender, I can imagine there are users who need to interact with
    other ecosystems which require wrapped emails, and forcing them to switch their settings
    back and forth when communicating with Debian would be inconsiderate.

    Therefore, I feel the above wording is fair for everyone.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Wednesday, February 26, 2025 11:21:42 AM MST Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; The purpose of this email is to propose that the expectation that emails</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; should be wrapped at 80 characters when they are sent should be dropped.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">This email has sparked an interesting discussion, which is what I was hoping for.&nbsp; So far, I would summarize the points made as follows.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">1.&nbsp; It
  • From Aaron Schrab@21:1/5 to Jonathan Dowland on Thu Feb 27 23:20:02 2025
    At 15:53 +0000 27 Feb 2025, Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
    If you happen to use edit_headers, you *might* want something like this
    (no idea if mutt has adopted it yet, ensures no trailing space on empty >header lines):

    https://github.com/neomutt/neomutt/pull/1164

    That PR shows as being merged several years ago. I'd supplied a similar
    patch for the original mutt as well, but had that rejected. After that I handled it in my vim by adding the following to
    ~/.vim/ftplugin/mail.vim:

    setlocal formatoptions+=rawn2
    autocmd CursorMoved,CursorMovedI <buffer> call autoformat#mail()

    The function called there is defined in https://github.com/aschrab/dotfiles/blob/master/vim/autoload/autoformat.vim
    It takes care of removing the `a` and `w` options from `formatoptions`
    while in the header area.

    Looks like I've been using that for ~13 years now, and I don't recall
    having any issues with it.

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  • From =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Mork?=@21:1/5 to Wookey on Fri Feb 28 08:30:01 2025
    Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> writes:

    but I think I need to know the equivalent to
    au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w
    for emacs particularly, but also zile, jed and mcedit (all of
    which get used from time to time). Anyone know?

    Set `use-hard-newlines' for emacs, according to https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=36821#8

    Looks like there is a use-hard-newlines function to toggle the
    setting in the current buffer. Let's test...



    Bjørn

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Fri Feb 28 09:30:01 2025
    On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 4:48 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    1. It would be really cool if all MUAs supported format=flowed, but
    they don’t, and we shouldn’t require special software to interact with the Debian mailing lists.

    format=flowed gracefully degrades for software which doesn't support it.
    That software will simply not reformat the lines, so whatever wrapping
    is in the original mail will be preserved. (You will see my text in
    *this* mail wrapped at column 72, unless your client supports reflowing
    and you've configured a different preference.) As such, recommending format=flowed does not exclude people using software that doesn't yet
    support it.

    Currently, the code of conduct for the mailing lists says:

    "Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion.
    Lines longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated
    output (e.g., ls -l).”

    https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

    Given the above four points, I propose the line from the code of
    conduct quoted above be changed to read:

    “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are
    wrapped by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails
    may wrap them if they choose.”

    This is effectively recommending nothing at all. If we were to accept
    this change in spirit, I would suggest deleting the existing sentence
    and not replacing it with something which basically says nothing. That
    keeps the CoC as short as possible.

    However, as stated above, since format=flowed gracefully degrades I
    don't see a reason why we could not recommend it.

    I also wonder whether a lower number than 80 might be a better default
    for mobile clients. I haven't conducted any experiments.


    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From Charles Plessy@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 28 03:40:02 2025
    Le Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 09:48:44AM -0700, Soren Stoutner a écrit :

    Currently, the code of conduct for the mailing lists says:

    "Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion. Lines longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated output (e.g.,
    ls -l).”

    https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

    Given the above four points, I propose the line from the code of conduct quoted above be
    changed to read:

    “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped by the sender at
    a particular column, but those sending emails may wrap them if they choose.”

    Hi Soren,

    thanks for the proposal! I also think that it is time to adjust our
    standards.

    I am not in favor of writing rules that say that there is no rule.
    Maybe we can go one step further and just modify the rule about
    complaining in private to be:

    If you want to complain to someone that they wrapped or did not wrap
    their lines, or that the sent you a carbon copy, do it privately.

    Have a nice day,

    Charles

    --
    Charles Plessy Nagahama, Yomitan, Okinawa, Japan
    Debian Med packaging team http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med Tooting from home https://framapiaf.org/@charles_plessy
    - You do not have my permission to use this email to train an AI -

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Fri Feb 28 09:40:01 2025
    On Wed Feb 26, 2025 at 6:21 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    I have composed this email without an arbitrary column wrap, so that
    those receiving it can see how it is handled by their various clients
    and devices.

    I didn't notice (until Marc pointed it out) because my client (aerc)
    re-wraps mails, even non-format=flowed ones, although I think there's a
    risk the process could corrupt the message. I haven't spotted that
    happening yet.

    I double-checked whether your message was format=flowed or not, and
    noticed you sent it multipart with HTML, which (given the topic) I found amusing.

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From Andrea Pappacoda@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Fri Feb 28 18:30:01 2025
    --495cd9aca27520484dc0bb4f11f1b4dc88ffc30be25682986087e482586e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=Flowed

    Hi,

    On Fri Feb 28, 2025 at 5:39 PM CET, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    I agree with that. I think the above statement includes that for
    people who already know what format=flowed is (and have an MUA that
    can do so), but perhaps it should be more explicit. Maybe the
    following.

    “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are
    wrapped by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails
    may wrap them if they choose. Users may send in format=flowed if they desire and their MUA supports it.”

    I think that, if your MUA supports it, sending in format=flowed is
    probably the best thing you can do (or, at least, that's my impression
    - please correct me if I'm wrong). Hence, instead of saying that maybe,
    if you want, you can send in f=f, the document should instead say that
    users are highly encouraged to do so. It is not an issue if they don't,
    but it's great if they do.

    Bye!

    --495cd9aca27520484dc0bb4f11f1b4dc88ffc30be25682986087e482586e
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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to Debian Developers on Fri Feb 28 09:52:51 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart28078988.i8YWrL1TAR
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    On Friday, February 28, 2025 1:35:07 AM MST Jonathan Dowland wrote:
    On Wed Feb 26, 2025 at 6:21 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    I have composed this email without an arbitrary column wrap, so that
    those receiving it can see how it is handled by their various clients
    and devices.

    I didn't notice (until Marc pointed it out) because my client (aerc)
    re-wraps mails, even non-format=flowed ones, although I think there's a
    risk the process could corrupt the message. I haven't spotted that
    happening yet.

    I double-checked whether your message was format=flowed or not, and
    noticed you sent it multipart with HTML, which (given the topic) I found amusing.

    I think that is probably Kmail’s default. Nothing in this discussion is about HTML vs. plain
    text. I don’t really mind if Kmail sends an HTML part as long as it also sends a plain text
    part, and it probably makes life easier for a lot of the people I communicate with outside
    of Debian circles.

    As a funny side note, when I first started actively contributing to Debian I opened a
    lengthy bug report. I started typing it in reportbug, but the complexity of the report and
    the desire for spell checking caused me to compose it in Kate instead. When I was done I
    copied and pasted it into the open reportbug and sent it off.

    The resulting text was not wrapped. I didn’t think anything about it at the time, but I got a
    complaint from someone responding to the bug report saying it was hard to quote my
    HTML text. I thought to myself, “I didn’t know reportbug produced HTML text?” Of course,
    it hadn’t. Rather, the person who was having problems with unwrapped text assumed it
    was some sort of HTML problem.

    It was because of that I set Kmail to wrap text at 80 columns. And I make sure and
    manually wrap text in reportbug. Until now, when this itch got big enough I thought it
    was time it should be scratched.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart28078988.i8YWrL1TAR
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Friday, February 28, 2025 1:35:07 AM MST Jonathan Dowland wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On Wed Feb 26, 2025 at 6:21 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; I have composed this email without an arbitrary column wrap, so that</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; those receiving it can see how it is handled by their various clients</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; and devices.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt
  • From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Fri Feb 28 18:40:01 2025
    On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 09:39:56AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    The CoC is a good place to list things it is not OK to complain to other people about if
    there is a high likelihood they are going to do so unless it is explicit, especially when it
    represents a change in long-standing behavior.

    I am a bit concerned about puting such highly discussable things as
    e-mail formatting in the CoC. The CoC is a document full of things that
    a sensible person does not need to read because it is just a description
    about what a sensible society expects from its members and any sane
    person is going to to do anyway. It's a pity that it is needed (and
    expected, nowadays) to put such things in writing.

    So, please, let's do something like "Debian mailing list etiquette"
    instead.

    Greetings
    Marc


    -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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  • From Jonathan McDowell@21:1/5 to thomas@goirand.fr on Fri Feb 28 18:40:01 2025
    On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 06:30:00PM +0100, thomas@goirand.fr wrote:
    On Feb 27, 2025 12:02, Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> wrote:
    actually struggle to read the hard-wrapped-at-80-then-wrapped-again text.
    The standard for email is 74 chars, not 80...

    RFC2822 says 78 characters.

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2822#section-2.1.1

    J.

    --
    Sunday morning is every day for | .''`. Debian GNU/Linux Developer
    all I care... and I'm not | : :' : Happy to accept PGP signed
    scared. | `. `' or encrypted mail - RSA
    | `- key on the keyservers.

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  • From thomas@goirand.fr@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 28 18:40:01 2025
    CgpPbiBGZWIgMjcsIDIwMjUgMTI6MDIsIEJsYWlyIE5vY3RpcyA8bmN0c0BkZWJpYW4ub3JnPiB3 cm90ZToKCj4gYWN0dWFsbHkgc3RydWdnbGUgdG8gcmVhZCB0aGUgaGFyZC13cmFwcGVkLWF0LTgw LXRoZW4td3JhcHBlZC1hZ2FpbiB0ZXh0LgoKClRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZCBmb3IgZW1haWwgaXMgNzQg Y2hhcnMsIG5vdCA4MC4uLgoKClRob21hcyBHb2lyYW5kICh6aWdvKQoKCg== PGh0bWw+PGJvZHk+PGJyPjxkaXYgZGlyPSJsdHIiPk9uIEZlYiAyNywgMjAyNSAxMjowMiwgQmxh aXIgTm9jdGlzICZsdDtuY3RzQGRlYmlhbi5vcmcmZ3Q7IHdyb3RlOjwvZGl2Pgo8ZGl2IGRpcj0i bHRyIj4mZ3Q7IGFjdHVhbGx5IHN0cnVnZ2xlIHRvIHJlYWQgdGhlIGhhcmQtd3JhcHBlZC1hdC04 MC10aGVuLXdyYXBwZWQtYWdhaW4gdGV4dC48L2Rpdj4KPGJyPjxkaXYgZGlyPSJsdHIiPlRoZSBz dGFuZGFyZCBmb3IgZW1haWwgaXMgNzQgY2hhcnMsIG5vdCA4MC4uLjwvZGl2Pgo8YnI+PGRpdiBk aXI9Imx0ciI+VGhvbWFzIEdvaXJhbmQgKHppZ28pPC9kaXY+Cjxicj48L2JvZHk+PC9odG1sPg==

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to Debian Developers on Fri Feb 28 09:39:56 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart45811683.ukohOH4tzM
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    On Friday, February 28, 2025 1:28:01 AM MST Jonathan Dowland wrote:
    On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 4:48 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails
    may wrap them if they choose.”

    This is effectively recommending nothing at all. If we were to accept
    this change in spirit, I would suggest deleting the existing sentence
    and not replacing it with something which basically says nothing. That
    keeps the CoC as short as possible.

    My concern with that is two-fold.

    1. If we say nothing, there will, from time to time, be people who complain about emails
    not being wrapped at a particular column. I think we need to be explicit that nobody
    should feel they are authorized to complain about this on the mailing lists.

    2. If we don’t explicitly state that it is OK if people do wrap their emails, from time to time
    people will complain that some emails are wrapped. I think we need to make it explicit
    that it is not OK to complain if other people do wrap their emails.

    The CoC is a good place to list things it is not OK to complain to other people about if
    there is a high likelihood they are going to do so unless it is explicit, especially when it
    represents a change in long-standing behavior.

    However, as stated above, since format=flowed gracefully degrades I
    don't see a reason why we could not recommend it.

    I agree with that. I think the above statement includes that for people who already know
    what format=flowed is (and have an MUA that can do so), but perhaps it should be more
    explicit. Maybe the following.

    “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped by the sender at
    a particular column, but those sending emails may wrap them if they choose. Users may
    send in format=flowed if they desire and their MUA supports it.”

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart45811683.ukohOH4tzM
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Friday, February 28, 2025 1:28:01 AM MST Jonathan Dowland wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On Thu Feb 27, 2025 at 4:48 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; wrapped by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; may wrap them if they choose.”</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0
  • From =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lien_COUDERC?=@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 1 11:30:01 2025
    Le 28 février 2025 18:34:45 GMT+01:00, Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> a écrit :
    On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 06:30:00PM +0100, thomas@goirand.fr wrote:
    On Feb 27, 2025 12:02, Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> wrote:
    actually struggle to read the hard-wrapped-at-80-then-wrapped-again text. >> The standard for email is 74 chars, not 80...

    RFC2822 says 78 characters.

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2822#section-2.1.1

    What about 2 * pi * 12 so we close the loop ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Timo =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hling?=@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 1 09:50:01 2025
    Hi,

    * Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2025-02-28 10:53]:
    Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We really
    want the sending MUA to wrap text, but it creates horrible problems, so
    here is a cludge to work around it.”
    I believe the idea is more like "We want the receiving MUA to do the
    line wrapping, but we do not want to break MUAs which cannot do it
    (yet)."

    https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/
    Only a webmail provider can bitch about the complexity of text wrapping
    and then proceed to recommend HTML, which is even more complex to render
    and even more difficult to sanitize from malicious JavaScript. I guess
    life is much simpler if you can rely on browser developers to do the
    heavy lifting for you.


    Cheers
    Timo

    --
    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ╭────────────────────────────────────────────────────╮
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ │ Timo Röhling │
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1 23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │
    ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ ╰────────────────────────────────────────────────────╯

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to Debian Developers on Fri Feb 28 10:53:55 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart3110698.vxLHcEoJFT
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Friday, February 28, 2025 10:37:51 AM MST Andrea Pappacoda wrote:
    [off-list]

    On Fri Feb 28, 2025 at 5:39 PM CET, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    I agree with that. I think the above statement includes that for people who
    already know what format=flowed is (and have an MUA that can do so), but perhaps it should be more explicit. Maybe the following.

    “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped
    by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails may wrap them if they choose. Users may send in format=flowed if they desire and their MUA supports it.”

    Hey Soren, speaking of format=flowed, it seems that your client sends
    the plain text format in flowed format (i.e., with spaces at the end of wrapped lines), but it doesn't set the content-type to f=f (i.e., you
    have "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8" instead of "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed".

    Do you know if this is on purpose? Setting the appropriate content-type parameter would allow clients to reflow text as desired :)

    I have no idea. I did some searching for format=flowed and Kmail and didn’t find much
    that is interesting, but I might not have looked deeply. Certainly, there is nothing in the
    settings that indicate any controls for it.

    One of the things that people who feel strongly about format=flowed can do would be to
    open up feature requests with every MUA and ask that it be officially supported. I
    considered doing so with Kmail, but decided against it because, as described in my
    original email, I think it is incorrect from a technical perspective for the sending MUA to
    determine where to wrap text. I think the correct behavior is for the sending MUA to not
    wrap text at all unless the user decides to put in a hard line break. I believe all line
    wrapping should be handled solely by the receiving MUA, which allows correct dynamic
    wrapping on any size screen.

    Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We really want the sending MUA
    to wrap text, but it creates horrible problems, so here is a cludge to work around it.” When
    you get rid of the first part (really wanting the sending MUA to wrap text) suddenly there is
    no need for the second part.

    In 2025, any MUA that can’t figure out how to wrap receiving text deserves a bug report.

    However, even though I feel that this is the correct approach, if Kmail had controls for
    sending format=flowed I would be fine with that. So, if someone else wants to make the
    pitch to the Kmail developers (which will probably require sending a patch if you really
    want to see it merged), I would not dissuade them.

    When I was searching, I came across the following blog post, which I thought was a bit
    insightful.

    https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart3110698.vxLHcEoJFT
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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Friday, February 28, 2025 10:37:51 AM MST Andrea Pappacoda wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; [off-list]</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On Fri Feb 28, 2025 at 5:39 PM CET, Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; I agree with that.&nbsp; I think the above statement includes that for people who</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; already know what format=flowed is (and have an MUA that can
  • From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 2 11:20:01 2025
    On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 09:48:36 +0100, Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org>
    wrote:
    * Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2025-02-28 10:53]:
    Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We really
    want the sending MUA to wrap text, but it creates horrible problems, so >>here is a cludge to work around it.”
    I believe the idea is more like "We want the receiving MUA to do the
    line wrapping, but we do not want to break MUAs which cannot do it
    (yet)."

    I am positively surprised that so many people in Debian still use mutt
    (it's by far the most efficient way to handle large amounts of e-mail
    including mailing lists"), so we need to cater for the fact that
    e-mails are written in an entirely different software (an "editor"¹)
    than it is consumed in.

    Greetings
    Marc

    ¹ to make it harder, the combination between mail reader and editor multiplies. That was worse back when we had more than one
    console-based mail reader.
    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
    Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jonas Smedegaard@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 2 13:00:01 2025
    Quoting Marc Haber (2025-03-02 11:12:18)
    On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 09:48:36 +0100, Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org>
    wrote:
    * Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2025-02-28 10:53]:
    Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We really >>want the sending MUA to wrap text, but it creates horrible problems, so >>here is a cludge to work around it.”
    I believe the idea is more like "We want the receiving MUA to do the
    line wrapping, but we do not want to break MUAs which cannot do it
    (yet)."

    I am positively surprised that so many people in Debian still use mutt
    (it's by far the most efficient way to handle large amounts of e-mail including mailing lists"), so we need to cater for the fact that
    e-mails are written in an entirely different software (an "editor"¹)
    than it is consumed in.

    Good point!


    ¹ to make it harder, the combination between mail reader and editor multiplies. That was worse back when we had more than one
    console-based mail reader.

    Not sure I follow your remark about "more than one console-based mail
    reader" as something of the past. Previously in this thread I noticed
    aerc mentioned, personally I use alot and might migrate to meli, all of
    which are console-based MUAs (and all three arguably better integrated
    with notmuch, for those interested in that).

    - Jonas

    --
    * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
    * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
    * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

    [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private --==============046764663418355347=MIME-Version: 1.0
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  • From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to Blair Noctis on Sun Mar 2 14:10:02 2025
    On Sun, Mar 02, 2025 at 09:00:21PM +0800, Blair Noctis wrote:
    FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).

    It's a bitch to reply to in mutt/vim.

    Greetings
    Marc


    -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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  • From Blair Noctis@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 2 14:10:02 2025
    To: thomas@goirand.fr

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  • From Blair Noctis@21:1/5 to =?UTF-8?Q?Timo_R=C3=B6hling?= on Sun Mar 2 14:20:01 2025
    To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

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  • From Stephan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Verb=FCcheln@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 2 15:20:02 2025
    Wrapping at 72 is intentional to allow a few levels of quotations. That
    is where the slightly different numbers come from. The hard limit is 80
    because of the 80x24 terminal convention.

    Regards

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  • From Andrea Pappacoda@21:1/5 to Blair Noctis on Sun Mar 2 18:10:02 2025
    --84ec2cdfebaa44c9aa856d04548cf7a746337304b65f300664efbf169b2c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=Flowed

    Hi Blair,

    On Sun Mar 2, 2025 at 2:00 PM CET, Blair Noctis wrote:
    FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread,
    hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to
    let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).

    Yeah, this email has been sent with the Format=Flowed Content-Type
    parameter, but the message actually still has long, non-wrapped, lines
    and you aren't using "soft breaks", (i.e., line breaks preceded by
    a space, called "flowed lines" in the RFC). So... Setting format=flowed doesn't bring any benefit in this case :/

    In other words, your paragraph as sent below:

    FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread, hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).

    should've been sent as:

    FWIW, I've enabled format=flowed after learning it in this thread,
    hopefully also giving those who would rather wrap some freedom (as to
    let it reflow, which effectively means to wrap, or not).

    without "> ", of course :)
    Note how lines are break at ~72 cols, but all end with a space apart
    from the last one.

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  • From Andrea Pappacoda@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 2 18:00:01 2025
    Il giorno sab 1 mar 2025 alle 09:48:36 +01:00:00, Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> ha scritto:
    * Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2025-02-28 10:53]:
    Format=flowed is being entirely driven by the belief that “We
    really want the sending MUA to wrap text, but it creates horrible
    problems, so here is a cludge to work around it.”

    Quite the opposite!

    I believe the idea is more like "We want the receiving MUA to do the
    line wrapping, but we do not want to break MUAs which cannot do it
    (yet)."

    In addition to what Timo said, format=flowed also resolves some other
    issues like how to unambiguously identifying quoted lines from lines
    starting with ">", and others. HTML also solves the same issues, and
    more, but introduces its own problems.

    https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/

    Rather than "the little standard that couldnʼt quite make it", I'd
    call this article "the standard that we (Fastmail) wanted to support,
    but couldn't make it". More than highlighting any particular issue with format=flowed itself, it just gives their rationale for not supporting
    it. Of course, if all you do is writing and receiving HTML emails in an
    HTML web application, focusing on plain text formats makes little
    sense. It does not look relevant for our mailing lists, though.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Blair Noctis@21:1/5 to Marc Haber on Sun Mar 2 18:40:01 2025
    To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

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  • From Blair Noctis@21:1/5 to Andrea Pappacoda on Sun Mar 2 18:50:01 2025
    Copy: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

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  • From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 2 19:10:01 2025
    On Sun, 2 Mar 2025 21:14:54 +0800, Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org>
    wrote:
    Open source webmails also exist.

    "When you're 10 out of 10 but it's your CVSS score".

    Greetings
    Marc
    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
    Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to Blair Noctis on Sun Mar 2 19:30:02 2025
    On Mon, Mar 03, 2025 at 01:39:11AM +0800, Blair Noctis wrote:
    I installed mutt and tried to reply to that email,
    and mutt showed me the Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 source.
    I'm not sure if that's what you saw.
    If you saw the decoded text,
    I copied it into vim and vim seems to wrap it just fine.

    Thankfully you usually don't copy the message into vim, but you hit
    R)eply, L)ist Reply or reply A)ll and mutt fires up the Editor for you.

    Would you kindly show me how it looked on your side?

    In the Editor, the long lines show up as long lines, with the
    disadvantage that you either quote them not at all, or completely, or
    have to go through intra-line editing to just leave what you want to
    quote, and if it's a really long line vim will not show it at all
    instead of partially.

    That is surely something that one could adapt to, but I'd hate having
    to.

    Notes and Outlook have done incredible damage to E-Mail culture,
    introducing Top-Posting as the widely accepted (but totally inferior)
    way to have discussions in e-mail. Please let us consider using a method
    that doesn't make discussions harder.

    Greetings
    Marc

    -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to Debian Developers on Mon Mar 3 10:39:17 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart7079520.OnItsxx0bH
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Friday, February 28, 2025 7:30:53 PM MST Mason Loring Bliss
    wrote:
    Looks pretty awful to me. Screenshot attached.

    Yes, the screenshot you sent shows how ugly it is when my email client
    wraps sending emails at 80 columns. It is for this reason I think we
    ought to get rid of that and simply let the receiving MUA handle all
    wrapping.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart7079520.OnItsxx0bH
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Friday, February 28, 2025 7:30:53 PM MST Mason Loring Bliss wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Looks pretty awful to me. Screenshot attached.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Yes, the screenshot you sent shows how ugly it is when my email client wraps sending emails at 80 columns.&nbsp; It is for this reason I think we ought to get rid of that and
    simply let the receiving MUA handle all wrapping.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">-- </p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Soren Stoutner</p>
    <p styl
  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 3 10:35:32 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart3652133.ie41q6YBy0
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Sunday, March 2, 2025 9:50:47 AM MST Andrea Pappacoda wrote:
    https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/

    Rather than "the little standard that couldnʼt quite make it", I'd
    call this article "the standard that we (Fastmail) wanted to support,
    but couldn't make it". More than highlighting any particular issue with format=flowed itself, it just gives their rationale for not supporting
    it. Of course, if all you do is writing and receiving HTML emails in an
    HTML web application, focusing on plain text formats makes little
    sense. It does not look relevant for our mailing lists, though.

    I am not an expert on format=flowed, so I can’t vouch for the following myself, but I
    thought it was interesting that the article above linked to the following:

    https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Thunderbird

    Which has instructions for disabling format=flowed, saying it caused problems. I’m not
    sure how much OpenStack represents general consensus for what works best on mailing
    lists, but it is at least one data point.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart3652133.ie41q6YBy0
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Sunday, March 2, 2025 9:50:47 AM MST Andrea Pappacoda wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt;&gt; https://www.fastmail.com/blog/format-flowed/</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Rather than &quot;the little standard that couldnʼt quite make it&quot;, I'd</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; call this article &quot;the standard that we (Fastmail) wanted to support,</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; but couldn't make it
  • From Philipp Kern@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Mon Mar 3 19:40:01 2025
    On 2025-03-03 18:39, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    On Friday, February 28, 2025 7:30:53 PM MST Mason Loring Bliss
    wrote:

    Looks pretty awful to me. Screenshot attached.
    Yes, the screenshot you sent shows how ugly it is when my email client
    wraps sending emails at 80 columns. It is for this reason I think we
    ought to get rid of that and simply let the receiving MUA handle all wrapping.

    I love that people are saying that their clients don't support
    format=flowed and thus we can't mandate them but then we make it the
    problem of the receiver that their MUA is not wrapping properly.

    Mine doesn't wrap properly either, especially on wide screens. Neither Thunderbird nor Roundcube. 80 characters are perfectly readable,
    long-lines are increasingly annoying to read.

    I can see how that part is a "me" problem. But it also worked perfectly
    fine before.

    Kind regards
    Philipp Kern

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 3 12:08:57 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart11307571.q4OAJ85PQa
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Monday, March 3, 2025 11:38:29 AM MST Philipp Kern wrote:
    On 2025-03-03 18:39, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    On Friday, February 28, 2025 7:30:53 PM MST Mason Loring Bliss

    wrote:
    Looks pretty awful to me. Screenshot attached.

    Yes, the screenshot you sent shows how ugly it is when my email client wraps sending emails at 80 columns. It is for this reason I think we
    ought to get rid of that and simply let the receiving MUA handle all wrapping.

    I love that people are saying that their clients don't support
    format=flowed and thus we can't mandate them but then we make it the
    problem of the receiver that their MUA is not wrapping properly.

    Mine doesn't wrap properly either, especially on wide screens. Neither Thunderbird nor Roundcube. 80 characters are perfectly readable,
    long-lines are increasingly annoying to read.

    I can see how that part is a "me" problem. But it also worked perfectly
    fine before.

    As I wrote in another part of this thread, in 2025 any MUA that can’t wrap received text to
    the preference of the viewer deserves a bug filed against that MUA. For example, every
    graphical MUA of which I am aware (like Thunderbird and Roundcube, which you mention)
    can wrap text to the desired length by resizing the viewable window. If your does not, I
    would recommend filing a bug report against your MUA.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart11307571.q4OAJ85PQa
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Monday, March 3, 2025 11:38:29 AM MST Philipp Kern wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On 2025-03-03 18:39, Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; On Friday, February 28, 2025 7:30:53 PM MST Mason Loring Bliss</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; </p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt;&gt; Looks pretty awful to me. Screenshot attached.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0
  • From Jeremy Stanley@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Mon Mar 3 20:50:01 2025
    On 2025-03-03 10:35:32 -0700 (-0700), Soren Stoutner wrote:
    [...]
    I am not an expert on format=flowed, so I can’t vouch for the
    following myself, but I thought it was interesting that the
    article above linked to the following:

    https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Thunderbird

    Which has instructions for disabling format=flowed, saying it
    caused problems. I’m not sure how much OpenStack represents
    general consensus for what works best on mailing lists, but it is
    at least one data point.

    I'm the main list admin for the OpenStack mailing lists these days,
    and I haven't observed it causing any issues. Also, as the main
    admin for that wiki, I feel compelled to point out the article you
    linked has included that disclaimer about Thunderbird's
    format=flowed problems since before it was migrated from MoinMoin to
    Mediawiki over 13 years ago, so it very well could be outdated.
    Based on the context in the last sentence of that section, I think
    it may have been something to do with inlined diffs/patches being
    malformed by the client with that option enabled, so I wouldn't be
    surprised if it's been fixed in the decade+ since.

    I'll go ahead and annotate the recommendation to suggest it's
    probably outdated, thanks for pointing that out!
    --
    Jeremy Stanley

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  • From Stephan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Verb=FCcheln@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 3 21:30:01 2025
    Are you aware that you are sending HTML messages the whole time?

    Are you aware that in those HTML parts, the source code is limited to
    80 characters per line?

    Have you ever noticed that this is also the case for base64-encoded
    binary attachments?

    Are you aware that even the text/plain section of your email is limited
    to 80 characters in the source code?

    This is not only about display preferences in Mail User Agents.

    Regards
    Stephan

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 3 13:38:16 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    On Monday, March 3, 2025 1:19:50 PM MST Stephan Verbücheln wrote:
    Are you aware that you are sending HTML messages the whole time?

    Yes, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the current version of Kmail defaults to
    sending both plain text and HMTL parts for every email.

    Also, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this is not a discussion about the merits of
    HTML vs plain text. As long as emails to the mailing list contain a plain text part, I know of
    no problem caused by them also containing an HTML part, which the receiving MUA is
    welcome to ignore.

    Are you aware that in those HTML parts, the source code is limited to
    80 characters per line?

    Have you ever noticed that this is also the case for base64-encoded
    binary attachments?

    Are you aware that even the text/plain section of your email is limited
    to 80 characters in the source code?

    Yes, the original email I sent starting this discussion was not wrapped at any column. I did
    so so that everyone can see how their MUAs render such emails.

    https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2025/02/msg00302.html

    All of the subsequent emails I have sent as part of this discussion have been wrapped at
    80 characters inline with the current mailing list code of conduct.

    https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

    I feel that it is important I follow the current code of conduct as I advocate for its change.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart4248614.FYXLhVEQL0
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Monday, March 3, 2025 1:19:50 PM MST Stephan Verbücheln wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Are you aware that you are sending HTML messages the whole time?</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Yes, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the current version of Kmail defaults to sending both plain text and HMTL parts for every email.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Also, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this is not a discussion about the merits of HTML vs plain text.&nbsp; As long as emails to the mailing list contain a plain tex
  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 3 13:39:13 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    On Monday, March 3, 2025 12:48:24 PM MST Jeremy Stanley wrote:
    On 2025-03-03 10:35:32 -0700 (-0700), Soren Stoutner wrote:
    [...]

    I am not an expert on format=flowed, so I can’t vouch for the
    following myself, but I thought it was interesting that the
    article above linked to the following:

    https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Thunderbird

    Which has instructions for disabling format=flowed, saying it
    caused problems. I’m not sure how much OpenStack represents
    general consensus for what works best on mailing lists, but it is
    at least one data point.

    I'm the main list admin for the OpenStack mailing lists these days,
    and I haven't observed it causing any issues. Also, as the main
    admin for that wiki, I feel compelled to point out the article you
    linked has included that disclaimer about Thunderbird's
    format=flowed problems since before it was migrated from MoinMoin to Mediawiki over 13 years ago, so it very well could be outdated.
    Based on the context in the last sentence of that section, I think
    it may have been something to do with inlined diffs/patches being
    malformed by the client with that option enabled, so I wouldn't be
    surprised if it's been fixed in the decade+ since.

    I'll go ahead and annotate the recommendation to suggest it's
    probably outdated, thanks for pointing that out!

    Good to know.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart13394760.0gHfz3Vxny
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Monday, March 3, 2025 12:48:24 PM MST Jeremy Stanley wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On 2025-03-03 10:35:32 -0700 (-0700), Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; [...]</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; I am not an expert on format=flowed, so I can’t vouch for the</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; following myself, but I thought it was interesting that the</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0
  • From Henrik Ahlgren@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Mon Mar 3 22:20:01 2025
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:

    All of the subsequent emails I have sent as part of this
    discussion have been wrapped at 80 characters inline with the
    current mailing list code of conduct.

    If I'm not mistaken, your emails (at least this one I am replying
    to) utilize Format=Flowed (in the text/pain part) as outlined in
    RFC 2646. However, the "logical" lines are wrapped at
    approximately 120 characters instead of the recommended 80
    characters per the RFC. Nonetheless, the actual on-wire lines are
    under 80 characters, encoded with quoted-printable.

    F=F is a promising concept, but it can be surprisingly challenging to
    implement correctly, even when it seems trivial.

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  • From Stephan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Verb=FCcheln@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 3 22:30:01 2025
    Am Montag, dem 03.03.2025 um 13:38 -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
    Also, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this is not a
    discussion about the merits of HTML vs plain text.  As long as emails
    to the mailing list contain a plain text part, I know of no problem
    caused by them also containing an HTML part, which the receiving MUA
    is welcome to ignore.

    The rules say “Please don't send your messages in HTML,” they do not
    say “Please also add plain text to your messages.”

    It bloats up the message.

    But the more serious problem: Everyone actually has to verify that both
    message parts have the same content for any important message, which
    are both signed by PGP.

    All of the subsequent emails I have sent as part of this discussion
    have been wrapped at 80 characters inline with the current mailing
    list code of conduct.

    They are wrapped in a silly and broken way if you take a look at the
    message source.

    Regards

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 3 14:42:35 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart4365693.PxUeLlx7kC
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    On Monday, March 3, 2025 2:28:38 PM MST Stephan Verbücheln wrote:
    Am Montag, dem 03.03.2025 um 13:38 -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
    Also, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this is not a
    discussion about the merits of HTML vs plain text. As long as emails
    to the mailing list contain a plain text part, I know of no problem
    caused by them also containing an HTML part, which the receiving MUA
    is welcome to ignore.

    The rules say “Please don't send your messages in HTML,” they do not
    say “Please also add plain text to your messages.”

    It bloats up the message.

    But the more serious problem: Everyone actually has to verify that both message parts have the same content for any important message, which
    are both signed by PGP.

    Interesting. I guess that text could be interpreted as “Do not send an HTML part, even if
    you also send a plain text part.”

    If that is the general understanding of the meaning of that section, then I think we ought
    to start a separate discussion about changing the text to be explicit that it is OK to send an
    HTML part as long as there is also a plain text part. However, I would appreciate it if this
    discussion were not hijacked to discuss HTML vs. plain text. This discussion is only about
    whether sending MUAs should be required to wrap plain text at a particular column.

    All of the subsequent emails I have sent as part of this discussion
    have been wrapped at 80 characters inline with the current mailing
    list code of conduct.

    They are wrapped in a silly and broken way if you take a look at the
    message source.

    I agree. Having the sending MUA wrap text creates problems, even with efforts like
    format=flowed that try to hint to the receiving MUA how to unwrap the text. Hence, I
    propose that we change the expectation so that the sending MUA is not expected to wrap
    text. I believe it is the only solution that makes technical sense because 1) the sending
    MUA does not know the screen width of the receiving device, and 2) different receiving
    devices and users have wildly different width needs, and there is no single column width
    the sending MUA can use that works well on all receiving devices.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart4365693.PxUeLlx7kC
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Monday, March 3, 2025 2:28:38 PM MST Stephan Verbücheln wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Am Montag, dem 03.03.2025 um 13:38 -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; Also, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this is not a</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; discussion about the merits of HTML vs plain text.  As long as emails</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; to the mailing list contain a plain text part, I know of no problem</p>
    <p style="margin-top
  • From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Mon Mar 3 23:30:01 2025
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:

    I agree. Having the sending MUA wrap text creates problems, even with
    efforts like format=flowed that try to hint to the receiving MUA how to unwrap the text.

    I am getting nerd-sniped here and really should continue ignoring this
    thread, but just for the record:

    * You are not using format=flowed. (Some other people on this thread are,
    but your messages are not.) You are sending your messages as simple
    text/plain. You or your MUA is adding a space to the end of each line as
    if the message were format=flowed, but it is not marked format=flowed,
    so none of that is working.

    * You are not wrapping the text part of your messages at 80 columns
    currently. You are hard-wrapping them at something like 90 or 95
    columns, which is strictly worse than *either* wrapping them under 80
    columns *or* not wrapping them at all.

    I don't think this was intentional, to be clear, but I believe your MUA is
    not working the way that you think it's working.

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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  • From Roger Lynn@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Mon Mar 3 23:30:02 2025
    On 03/03/2025 19:10, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    On Monday, March 3, 2025 11:38:29 AM MST Philipp Kern wrote:
    Mine doesn't wrap properly either, especially on wide screens. Neither
    Thunderbird nor Roundcube. 80 characters are perfectly readable,
    long-lines are increasingly annoying to read.

    I can see how that part is a "me" problem. But it also worked perfectly
    fine before.

    As I wrote in another part of this thread, in 2025 any MUA that can’t wrap received text to
    the preference of the viewer deserves a bug filed against that MUA. For example, every
    graphical MUA of which I am aware (like Thunderbird and Roundcube, which you mention)
    can wrap text to the desired length by resizing the viewable window. If your does not, I
    would recommend filing a bug report against your MUA.

    In the common layout used by most graphical MUAs that I have seen, making
    the window narrow enough to wrap text at a sensible line length results in Subject, From and Date columns that are too narrow to read. I have just
    tried an alternative layout in Seamonkey (nee Mozilla) that puts the folder, thread and message panes side by side, which does work (especially if you
    have a large monitor or you are happy for it to use the full width), but
    does feel very odd. I expect that Thunderbird has a similar setting (and in reply to Blair Noctis, I am sure that Thunderbird properly supports format=flowed if properly configured (I have disabled it in Seamonkey, but
    am considering re-enabling as a result of this thread)).

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 3 15:42:15 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart5168484.9hZMS5Nvng
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Monday, March 3, 2025 3:26:36 PM MST Russ Allbery wrote:
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:
    I agree. Having the sending MUA wrap text creates problems, even with efforts like format=flowed that try to hint to the receiving MUA how to unwrap the text.

    I am getting nerd-sniped here and really should continue ignoring this thread, but just for the record:

    * You are not using format=flowed. (Some other people on this thread are,
    but your messages are not.) You are sending your messages as simple
    text/plain. You or your MUA is adding a space to the end of each line as
    if the message were format=flowed, but it is not marked format=flowed,
    so none of that is working.

    I agree. Kmail does not have controls for format=flowed and does not advertise that it
    supports it, although it appears to have adopted part of the standard.

    As I have written in other parts of this discussion, I do not feel that format=flowed is the
    solution, although I have no objection if other people send emails to the mailing list that
    are format=flowed.

    * You are not wrapping the text part of your messages at 80 columns
    currently. You are hard-wrapping them at something like 90 or 95
    columns, which is strictly worse than *either* wrapping them under 80
    columns *or* not wrapping them at all.

    I don't think this was intentional, to be clear, but I believe your MUA is not working the way that you think it's working.

    That is interesting. I have Kmail set to wrap at 80 columns. However, it wouldn’t surprise
    me if Kmail has some bug in this regard.

    Please feel free to submit a bug report to Kmail if you like.

    From my perspective, the correct result is for this discussion to reach the consensus that
    there is no expectation that sending MUAs wrap text, at which point I will disable the
    setting in Kmail to wrap text at 80 columns and, even if Kmail has some sort of bug that is
    converting 80 columns to 90 or 95 columns, it should never manifest again in any email
    that I send.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart5168484.9hZMS5Nvng
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Monday, March 3, 2025 3:26:36 PM MST Russ Allbery wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Soren Stoutner &lt;soren@debian.org&gt; writes:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; I agree. Having the sending MUA wrap text creates problems, even with</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; efforts like format=flowed that try to hint to the receiving MUA how to</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; unwrap the text.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p s
  • From Stephan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Verb=FCcheln@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 4 08:00:01 2025
    However, I would appreciate it if this discussion were not hijacked
    to discuss HTML vs. plain text.

    In case we define any new rules, it has to cover both.

    That is interesting.  I have Kmail set to wrap at 80 columns. 
    However, it wouldn’t surprise me if Kmail has some bug in this
    regard.

    No one asked you to (manually) wrap on the editor level. You should
    wrap on the protocol level, which is a different thing.

    Now with your setup, you are doing both at the same time with silly
    results. Please take a look at the source code of your messages.

    As someone else already pointed out, your editor-level line length is
    around 92 characters, and then each 92 character line is split into two
    lines with 78 and around 14 characters. It is also wrapping in the
    middle of words.

    Your setup is broken for any convention.

    Regards

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  • From Andrea Pappacoda@21:1/5 to Henrik Ahlgren on Tue Mar 4 09:00:01 2025
    --16c0e75de428f46d0e8a932fe3521e47186efbb96553e8b6fafefd792775 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=Flowed

    Hi Henrik,

    On Mon Mar 3, 2025 at 10:12 PM CET, Henrik Ahlgren wrote:
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:

    All of the subsequent emails I have sent as part of this
    discussion have been wrapped at 80 characters inline with the
    current mailing list code of conduct.

    If I'm not mistaken, your emails (at least this one I am replying
    to) utilize Format=Flowed (in the text/pain part) as outlined in
    RFC 2646.

    No, he's not. Here's the relevant part of the raw message:

    [...]
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
    From: Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org>
    To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
    Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2025 13:38:16 -0700
    Message-ID: <2454349.8dm9x6sSvN@soren-desktop>
    Organization: Debian
    MIME-Version: 1.0

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart4248614.FYXLhVEQL0
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
    [...]

    As you can see, the Content-Type header has no Format parameter. Yeah, (decoded) lines end with ' ' (ASCII space), but with no Format parameter
    set to Flowed, they have no special meaning.

    Nonetheless, the actual on-wire lines are under 80 characters, encoded
    with quoted-printable.

    Just to be clear: this has nothing to do with Format=Flowed. The Content-Transfer-Encoding does not bind the Content-Type, nor vice
    versa.

    F=F is a promising concept, but it can be surprisingly challenging to implement correctly, even when it seems trivial.

    Is it? I wrote a simple flowed-to-html converter in something like 50
    lines of C. It may not be sophisticated, but to me it seems to work as expected. As for composing, simple editors like Vim can produce
    compliant text with a one-line configuration option.

    --16c0e75de428f46d0e8a932fe3521e47186efbb96553e8b6fafefd792775
    Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"

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  • From Henrik Ahlgren@21:1/5 to Andrea Pappacoda on Tue Mar 4 09:40:01 2025
    "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> writes:

    As you can see, the Content-Type header has no Format parameter.
    Yeah, (decoded) lines end with ' ' (ASCII space), but with no
    Format parameter set to Flowed, they have no special meaning.

    I stand corrected; I mistakenly interpreted f=f there. It seems
    expectation bias played tricks on my mind. It seems that KMail (?)
    has significant issues with f=f implementation.

    F=F is a promising concept, but it can be surprisingly
    challenging to implement correctly, even when it seems
    trivial.

    Is it? I wrote a simple flowed-to-html converter in something
    like 50 lines of C. It may not be sophisticated, but to me it
    seems to work as expected. As for composing, simple editors
    like Vim can produce compliant text with a one-line
    configuration option.

    The specification is straightforward, yet many MUAs mishandle it,
    particularly in edge cases. For example, Gnus exhibits numerous
    peculiar bugs. In the last message by me you replied to, the final
    paragraph fails to soft-wrap, unlike the preceding one, and Gnus
    itself renders it as part of the same paragraph (unlike e.g.
    Evolution). This indicates problems in both encoding and decoding.
    I can only guess how this email will end up after I've sent it. I
    really can't decide if I should use f=f or not.

    Additionally, some messages contain sections that should never be
    soft-wrapped, such as diffs. I'm uncertain whether many MUAs offer
    a smooth user interface to designate which paragraphs should be
    hard-wrapped. At least Gnus (message.el) does not.

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Tue Mar 4 13:10:02 2025
    On Mon Mar 3, 2025 at 9:42 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    Hence, I propose that we change the expectation so that the sending
    MUA is not expected to wrap text.

    In which case, how can the receiving MUA know which lines are wrappable
    and which are not? Related, how can the sending MUA signal which lines
    are wrappable and which are not?


    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Henrik Ahlgren on Tue Mar 4 13:10:02 2025
    On Tue Mar 4, 2025 at 8:39 AM GMT, Henrik Ahlgren wrote:
    Additionally, some messages contain sections that should never be soft-wrapped, such as diffs. I'm uncertain whether many MUAs offer a
    smooth user interface to designate which paragraphs should be
    hard-wrapped. At least Gnus (message.el) does not.

    An inline-diff will not be wrapped unless any of the lines ends with a
    space character. Of course, sometimes, they will; in which case, for
    that email, the user should either not use format=flowed, or attach the
    diff instead. Evidently this is not ideal. I hazard that inline-diffs is
    a special-case rather than a general-case of email, these days.




    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 4 12:52:39 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart4733487.NJLEVDUfNM
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    On Tuesday, March 4, 2025 5:08:43 AM MST Jonathan Dowland wrote:
    On Mon Mar 3, 2025 at 9:42 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    Hence, I propose that we change the expectation so that the sending
    MUA is not expected to wrap text.

    In which case, how can the receiving MUA know which lines are wrappable
    and which are not? Related, how can the sending MUA signal which lines
    are wrappable and which are not?

    This is an interesting question based on a presumption that I didn’t know was possible. In
    a plain text email, is it possible to indicate that certain lines are not wrappable? I know it is
    possible in an HTML email, but I was unaware of any way of doing so in a plain text email
    (at least, any generally accepted standard).

    For example, on my cell phone I use Thunderbird as my MUA. In portrait mode on my
    device text wraps at about 40 columns. Are you saying that you can send a plain text
    email in such a way that Thunderbird or any other MUA on a cell phone will force scrolling
    left and right to read the lines instead of having the MUA wrap them at the edge of the
    screen?

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart4733487.NJLEVDUfNM
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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Tuesday, March 4, 2025 5:08:43 AM MST Jonathan Dowland wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On Mon Mar 3, 2025 at 9:42 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; Hence, I propose that we change the expectation so that the sending</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; MUA is not expected to wrap text.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; In which case, how can the receiving MUA know which lines
  • From Charles Plessy@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 5 01:00:01 2025
    Le Tue, Mar 04, 2025 at 12:52:39PM -0700, Soren Stoutner a écrit :

    This is an interesting question based on a presumption that I didn’t know was
    possible. In a plain text email, is it possible to indicate that certain lines are not wrappable?

    I am surprised nobody has mentionned support (or lack of support) of text/markdown at this point...

    Have a nice day,

    --
    Charles Plessy Nagahama, Yomitan, Okinawa, Japan
    Debian Med packaging team http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med Tooting from home https://framapiaf.org/@charles_plessy
    - You do not have my permission to use this email to train an AI -

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  • From Jeremy Stanley@21:1/5 to Charles Plessy on Wed Mar 5 01:50:01 2025
    On 2025-03-05 08:52:22 +0900 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
    [...]
    I am surprised nobody has mentionned support (or lack of support) of text/markdown at this point...
    [...]

    Surely you mean troff/groff?
    .Pp
    .Bd It's \fIthe best\fP!

    ;)
    --
    Jeremy Stanley

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 4 18:28:30 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart5864630.DvuYhMxLoT
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Tuesday, March 4, 2025 5:43:07 PM MST Jeremy Stanley wrote:
    On 2025-03-05 08:52:22 +0900 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
    [...]

    I am surprised nobody has mentionned support (or lack of support) of text/markdown at this point...

    [...]

    Surely you mean troff/groff?
    .Pp
    .Bd It's \fIthe best\fP!

    ;)

    Thank you. I needed that smile today.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart5864630.DvuYhMxLoT
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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Tuesday, March 4, 2025 5:43:07 PM MST Jeremy Stanley wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On 2025-03-05 08:52:22 +0900 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; [...]</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; I am surprised nobody has mentionned support (or lack of support) of</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; text/markdown at this point...</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-l
  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Wed Mar 5 17:20:01 2025
    On Tue Mar 4, 2025 at 7:52 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    This is an interesting question based on a presumption that I didn’t
    know was possible. In a plain text email, is it possible to indicate
    that certain lines are not wrappable?

    Yes. That's exactly what format=flowed does. Line ends in space?
    Wrappable. Line doesn't? Not wrappable.

    For example, on my cell phone I use Thunderbird as my MUA. In
    portrait mode on my device text wraps at about 40 columns. Are you
    saying that you can send a plain text email in such a way that
    Thunderbird or any other MUA on a cell phone will force scrolling left
    and right to read the lines instead of having the MUA wrap them at the
    edge of the screen?

    Force, no. Thunderbird on Android might choose to wrap lines that are
    not marked as wrappable. As a sender, the best I can do is advise.




    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From Jeremy Stanley@21:1/5 to Jonathan Dowland on Wed Mar 5 18:30:01 2025
    On 2025-03-05 16:17:20 +0000 (+0000), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
    On Tue Mar 4, 2025 at 7:52 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    This is an interesting question based on a presumption that I didn’t know was possible. In a plain text email, is it possible to
    indicate that certain lines are not wrappable?

    Yes. That's exactly what format=flowed does. Line ends in space?
    Wrappable. Line doesn't? Not wrappable.
    [...]

    Semantics maybe, but that's not how I interpret the format=flowed
    spec (or perhaps the question).

    Having a space at the end of a line indicates the line has been
    soft-wrapped by the sender, so from the reader's perspective the
    line should be logically (re)combined with the line following it.
    That doesn't exactly say whether or not a line *can* be wrapped, but
    rather that it was preemptively soft-wrapped and so can be
    automatically "unwrapped" or "rewrapped" after concatenating
    subsequent lines.

    Absence of a space at the line end doesn't say not to wrap that
    line, but merely not to combine it with the line that follows. The
    line itself can still be wrapped as needed if it exceeds the
    client's preferred length.
    --
    Jeremy Stanley

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  • From =?UTF-8?B?T3R0byBLZWvDpGzDpGluZW4=?@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 5 20:10:02 2025
    Hi!

    Given the above four points, I propose the line from the code of conduct quoted above be changed to read:

    “There is no expectation that emails sent to the mailing lists are wrapped by the sender at a particular column, but those sending emails may wrap them if they choose.”

    I like this wording because it does not prevent people from wrapping their emails if they want. Although I think the superior options for the entire ecosystem would be that no emails are wrapped by the sender, I can imagine there are users who need to
    interact with other ecosystems which require wrapped emails, and forcing them to switch their settings back and forth when communicating with Debian would be inconsiderate.

    Therefore, I feel the above wording is fair for everyone.

    I think this a reasonable suggestion by Soren. Alternatively, Charles suggestion to completely remove mentions of line wrapping requirement
    from the "Code of conduct" section at
    https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ would also work.

    All those docs and web pages are read by new people interested in
    contributing to Debian, and I am glad to see people reviewing,
    updating and cleaning them up.

    This thread about line wrapping also shows that there are many with
    two or more decades of experience in Debian, who have over the years
    formed their own highly optimized workflows and email client and text
    editor settings which diverge from what "mainstream" today considers
    easy or optimal. I am hugely grateful for people who have contributed
    to Debian for decades and I hope to see them continue to contribute
    for decades to come. At the same time I wonder how we can narrow the
    evident cultural gap between the Mutt user generation and newer web
    email generation users, which also manifests in other areas of
    workflow preferences as we have seen in discussions about email vs web interface for bug reports.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrey Rakhmatullin@21:1/5 to James Lu on Thu Mar 6 07:20:01 2025
    On Wed, Mar 05, 2025 at 09:32:05PM -0800, James Lu wrote:
    If I were to write, say, a Thunderbird extension that forcibly unwraps
    text I receive, regardless of whether format=flowed was specified,
    what would be the implication?

    This (as a mild but easy to get example of pre-formatted text):

    For sake of argument:- If this re-wrapping is purely client side and
    happens after PGP verification, incoming mail could still show as
    verified (but it may look slightly different)- I could toggle this on/off >per message, so that I can still write inline replies based on the
    original message's formatting


    --
    WBR, wRAR

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  • From Henrik Ahlgren@21:1/5 to Andrey Rakhmatullin on Thu Mar 6 08:20:02 2025
    Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> writes:

    This (as a mild but easy to get example of pre-formatted text):

    For sake of argument:- If this re-wrapping is purely client side and
    happens after PGP verification, incoming mail could still show as
    verified (but it may look slightly different)- I could toggle this
    on/off per message, so that I can still write inline replies based
    on the original message's formatting

    There are many other forms of text where we can't merely consider them
    as paragraphs of prose. For instance, in technical mailing lists,
    snippets of source code are quite common. Additionally, one may
    encounter elements like postal addresses or poetry, where (hard)
    newlines matter for proper formatting. Some individuals still favor the traditional practice of indenting paragraphs rather than the "block
    paragraph" style that predominates in today's email culture (most likely
    due to challenges in this exact issue).

    It is essential to have a method for distinguishing between hard and
    soft newlines if you want to reflow text properly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Wanderer@21:1/5 to James Lu on Thu Mar 6 14:50:01 2025
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
    On 2025-03-06 at 00:32, James Lu wrote:

    Hi all,

    On 2025-02-26 10:21, Soren Stoutner wrote:

    However, from a technical perspective, having the *sending* program
    decide where line breaks should be in an email doesn’t seem like
    the correct approach to me because, 1) the sending program does not
    know the screen width of the receiving program, and 2) there is
    large variability in the screen width of receiving devices,
    including cell phones who are often less than 80 characters wide.

    There's plenty of discussion about format=flowed elsewhere in this
    thread, but unfortunately it never caught on. This got me thinking
    though: why do email clients *have* to show hard-wrapped text as-is?
    If I were to write, say, a Thunderbird extension that forcibly
    unwraps text I receive, regardless of whether format=flowed was
    specified, what would be the implication?

    At my workplace, I am obliged to use Outlook.

    By default, Outlook seems to do exactly that, on the recipient and
    viewing side: it leaves the actual representation on-disk etc. alone,
    but if it sees consecutive non-blank lines (I'm guessing the criterion
    is actually "has something other than whitespace at the start of the
    line"), it will fold those lines together into a single line (with the
    division point represented by, as far as I can see, a single space) at rendering time. There seems to be nothing you can do, as the sender, to
    affect this behavior for the recipient - not short of using *double*
    newlines, turning each "line" into its own paragraph.

    There seem to be some special rules relating to punctuation (if the
    previous line ends with a period, the next one won't be folded into the
    same line; if the new line begins with a '>', the two lines won't be
    folded together; I've also seen cases where the new line begins with a
    single word followed by a period and a close-paren get the new line not
    folded in to the previous), but I don't have a full handle on those, and
    the 100-foot view of the behavior remains the same.

    This sometimes makes no difference, and sometimes drives me *batty*,
    especially given how much effort I put in to manually adding those hard-line-breaks in all the mails I have to compose in Outlook (since it
    won't add them itself).

    There *is* a setting which can disable this behavior; I don't remember
    what it is, except that it might be (or be a subset of) the "read E-mail
    as plain text" setting which they designate as being a security option.
    That setting is per-client, however.

    ...which has the effect that the same person can see the same mail
    rendered differently when reading it on different devices. I personally
    find that to be a negative, but others may well find it to be a
    positive.

    --
    The Wanderer

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
    persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
    progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw


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  • From Giuseppe Sacco@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 6 15:00:01 2025
    Hello James,

    Il giorno mer, 05/03/2025 alle 21.32 -0800, James Lu ha scritto:
    Hi all,
    On 2025-02-26 10:21, Soren Stoutner wrote:

    I started thinking about this a few weeks ago when I received an email from a Debian Developer complaining that replies from my email client (KMail) looked odd because they truncated quoted lines in a way that did not lay out pleasingly.  This was because I had set KMail to wrap lines at 80 characters.


    I see this too with a lot of ML posts - mails are wrapped in a way such
    that the text only takes up a third of my monitor. This is one of those things where the more I notice it, the more it annoys me :/
    [...]

    I think that even for emails, the line length should be kept at a reasonable value in order to maximize the readability. Such value is usually lower than 80, as shown, for example, in
    https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability . I do have a large screen, but I keep my email/text editors quite narrow in order to allow less than
    100 characters per line. Of course YMMV.

    Bye,
    Giuseppe

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  • From gregor herrmann@21:1/5 to Giuseppe Sacco on Fri Mar 7 00:20:01 2025
    On Thu, 06 Mar 2025 14:53:07 +0100, Giuseppe Sacco wrote:

    I think that even for emails, the line length should be kept at a reasonable >value in order to maximize the readability. Such value is usually lower than >80, as shown, for example, in >https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability . I do have a large screen, >but I keep my email/text editors quite narrow in order to allow less than
    100 characters per line. Of course YMMV.

    Thank you for this link.
    I've been thinking about describing my personal experiences for some
    days but this web page explains it much better than I could have
    written it myself:

    Following long lines and than backtracking to the next line is
    tedious for me; and if I have to turn my head right and left I'm much
    more prone to just delete a mail than to follow through and complete
    reading the whole text. -- There's a reason why texts in newspapers
    are typically in columns and not across the whole page.

    I acknowledge that there are people in Debian whose neck and eyes
    are better than mine, and who have less knowledge about email
    customs, and who use broken MUAs, and who want me to adjust my
    terminal size but I'd like to note anyway that I'm not supporting any
    change in the recommendations for Debian mailing lists, and I'll keep
    ignoring unreadable emails in the future.

    And I'd also like to thank people who pushed me into exploring
    format=flowed in MUAs and editors further. I enjoy(ed) experimenting
    with these things :)


    Cheers,
    gregor

    --
    .''`. https://info.comodo.priv.at -- Debian Developer https://www.debian.org
    : :' : OpenPGP fingerprint D1E1 316E 93A7 60A8 104D 85FA BB3A 6801 8649 AA06
    `. `' Member VIBE!AT & SPI Inc. -- Supporter Free Software Foundation Europe
    `-

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  • From Jonas Smedegaard@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 7 09:00:01 2025
    Quoting gregor herrmann (2025-03-07 00:14:19)
    On Thu, 06 Mar 2025 14:53:07 +0100, Giuseppe Sacco wrote:

    I think that even for emails, the line length should be kept at a reasonable >value in order to maximize the readability. Such value is usually lower than >80, as shown, for example, in >https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability . I do have a large screen, >but I keep my email/text editors quite narrow in order to allow less than >100 characters per line. Of course YMMV.

    Thank you for this link.

    For completeness sake, I recommend to take newer research into account,
    which a) questions if longer lines generally harms reading due to flaws
    in especially one major research project from 2029, and b) points at
    printed and digital texts affecting readability differently: https://designregression.com/article/line-length-revisited-following-the-research

    Despite long lines possibly not really *generally* hampering
    readability, some of us *are* helped by following the typographic
    conventions of 50-70 chars per line, be it due to e.g. dyslexia or
    simply years of training our reading skills with print style texts.

    Yes, some of us are younger, which quite likely means that reading
    skills have been trained to a larger degree on online media than on
    printed books, i.e. less commonly following typographic conventions
    and therefore potentially more fluent in processing long lines.

    Søren proposes to simply not wrap when composing. That helps reading on
    narrow width devices, but harms reading on conventional MUAs expecting
    less than 80 chars per line, and harms reading on wide width devices for
    some of us. Sure we can then tell folks to change MUA and to resize
    their windows, but that is not nice to impose of human beings, being
    creatures of habit.

    I favor the proposal of continuing to follow the convention of wrapping
    below 80 chars per line, and ecourage the use of f=f. That helps those
    stock in the 90s, either mentally or through their choice of arcane MUA,
    but harms those with large width MUAs and skilled reading long lines,
    and those reading emails on narrow width devices. But only the
    (allegedly large) subset of those users who use MUAs not supporting f=f.


    Following long lines and than backtracking to the next line is
    tedious for me; and if I have to turn my head right and left I'm much
    more prone to just delete a mail than to follow through and complete
    reading the whole text. -- There's a reason why texts in newspapers
    are typically in columns and not across the whole page.
    I acknowledge that there are people in Debian whose neck and eyes
    are better than mine, and who have less knowledge about email
    customs, and who use broken MUAs, and who want me to adjust my
    terminal size but I'd like to note anyway that I'm not supporting any
    change in the recommendations for Debian mailing lists, and I'll keep ignoring unreadable emails in the future.

    Yes, arguably the issue of non-wrapped text causing too long lines is a
    luxury problem that can be addressed by simply changing window size.
    But that is asking creatures of habit to change habits, which is a lot.

    Interestingly, I see this as a combined social and technical issue, and
    since we are hackers, I favor that we try explore the option of hacking
    our tools, before giving up and instead impose pressure on the habits of
    our peers (because obviously *my* habits are a priority, it must be the
    habits of others that need to change, right?).

    Let us please continue to respect the ancient rules of email style,
    and try explore format=flowed, which might be old too but evidently
    not widely known prior to this thread!

    - Jonas

    --
    * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
    * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
    * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

    [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private --==============45898393900657306=MIME-Version: 1.0
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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Henrik Ahlgren on Fri Mar 7 11:10:02 2025
    On Thu Mar 6, 2025 at 7:08 AM GMT, Henrik Ahlgren wrote:
    It is essential to have a method for distinguishing between hard and
    soft newlines if you want to reflow text properly.

    Agreed! And, as Jeremy Stanley points out in another msg, this is not
    *quite* what format=flowed promises.




    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From Jeremy Stanley@21:1/5 to Jonathan Dowland on Fri Mar 7 16:20:01 2025
    On 2025-03-07 10:08:23 +0000 (+0000), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
    On Thu Mar 6, 2025 at 7:08 AM GMT, Henrik Ahlgren wrote:
    It is essential to have a method for distinguishing between hard
    and soft newlines if you want to reflow text properly.

    Agreed! And, as Jeremy Stanley points out in another msg, this is
    not *quite* what format=flowed promises.

    Eh, it's pretty close though. The gist is that a <space><linebreak>
    sequence is meant to represent a soft line break, while <linebreak>
    not preceded by <space> is a regular hard line break. (Whether
    <linebreak> is <CR><LF> or bare <LF> depends on whether you're
    considering it at the SMTP layer or MUA/editor of course.)

    My earlier message was more contesting the suggestion that absence
    of a soft line break implies the line should not be *wrapped* into
    multiple shorter lines by the client (i.e. the preformatted text
    case), which is incorrect; rather it means that line should not be
    logically *combined* with the next (treat it as a hard line break).

    So it basically does provide a means of encoding the soft vs. hard
    line break distinction, it's just that soft and hard line breaks
    don't tell you what can be wrapped, they tell you what can be
    combined. The underlying assumption is that every line can be
    wrapped, but not all lines can be combined. This is also at the
    heart of the lack of suitability for preformatted text, e.g. inline
    patch diffs.

    Maybe part of the confusion is that some of us define the term "line
    wrapping" differently?
    --
    Jeremy Stanley

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to Debian Developers on Fri Mar 7 16:40:04 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart22617653.EfDdHjke4D
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    At this point in the discussion I would like to progress toward a decision.

    One way to do so would be a GR. On one hand, using a GR to modify one line
    of the code of conduct for the mailing list seems like a rather large hammer for a rather small problem. But on the other hand, many people feel strongly enough about this that a GR might be the only mechanism where people will
    feel like the outcome is fair.

    My question is, is there any other decision making process that would be preferable to a GR to decide this issue?

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">At this point in the discussion I would like to progress toward a decision.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">One way to do so would be a GR.&nbsp; On one hand, using a GR to modify one line of the code of conduct for the mailing list seems like a rather large hammer for a rather small
    problem.&nbsp; But on the other hand, many people feel strongly enough about this that a GR might be the only mechanism where people will feel like the outcome is fair.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">My question is, is there any other decision making process that would be preferable to a GR to decide this issue?</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">-- </p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Soren Stoutner</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">soren@debian.org</p>
    </body>
    </html>
    --nextPart22617653.EfDdHjke4D--

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  • From Holger Levsen@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Sat Mar 8 09:00:02 2025
    On Fri, Mar 07, 2025 at 04:40:04PM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    My question is, is there any other decision making process that would be preferable to a GR to decide this issue?

    another outcome would be to leave things like they are. of course we could
    have a GR to get to that result too.


    --
    cheers,
    Holger

    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
    ⠈⠳⣄

    People complaining about Debian changing something, please queue to the left. People complaining about Debian moving too slowly please queue to the right. Thank you. (@ekuber)

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  • From =?ISO-8859-1?Q?IOhannes_m_zm=F6lnig@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 8 09:00:02 2025
    Am 8. März 2025 00:14:10 MEZ schrieb Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org>:
    Otto Kekäläinen wrote:

    I think this a reasonable suggestion by Soren. […]

    Incidentally, the suggestion is good as illegible on a


    I think I'm misunderstanding something here, because - assuming you attached the screenshot as an example of an as "good as illegible" email - *your* email incidentally looks just as illegible to me. At least, it is awkward to read (formatting wise).



    I'm on K-9 right now, so sorry if my formatting is bonkers as well (I have no idea how I could adjust it)


    mfh.her.fsr
    IOhannes

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  • From Philip Hands@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Sun Mar 9 00:30:02 2025
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:

    At this point in the discussion I would like to progress toward a decision.

    One way to do so would be a GR. On one hand, using a GR to modify one line of the code of conduct for the mailing list seems like a rather large hammer for a rather small problem. But on the other hand, many people feel strongly
    enough about this that a GR might be the only mechanism where people will feel like the outcome is fair.

    My question is, is there any other decision making process that would be preferable to a GR to decide this issue?

    You seem to be under the impression that there's an emerging consensus
    in favour of your idea.

    From my reading of this thread, the only real consensus seems to be that format=flowed is a good idea (as a result of which I intend to persuade
    my mail setup to generate that when I've got a moment).

    I doubt that a GR is justified, especially if all it's going to end up
    doing is adding a recommendation for format=flowed to the CoC that isn't actually required for people to adopt the use of format=flowed.

    Cheers, Phil.
    --
    Philip Hands -- https://hands.com/~phil

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to Debian Developers on Sat Mar 8 17:56:41 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart21501964.0c2gjJ1VT2
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    On Saturday, March 8, 2025 4:23:56 PM MST Philip Hands wrote:
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:
    At this point in the discussion I would like to progress toward a decision.

    One way to do so would be a GR. On one hand, using a GR to modify one line of the code of conduct for the mailing list seems like a rather large hammer
    for a rather small problem. But on the other hand, many people feel strongly
    enough about this that a GR might be the only mechanism where people will feel like the outcome is fair.

    My question is, is there any other decision making process that would be preferable to a GR to decide this issue?

    You seem to be under the impression that there's an emerging consensus
    in favour of your idea.

    Yes, I feel like there are a majority of Debian Developers who are in favor of making the
    change that I propose, partially based on the number of people who have commented
    only once in the conversation with a short message in favor of the change. I also see a
    small number of Debian Developers who are strongly opposed to the change.

    I think those who are against the change feel much more strongly about their position
    than those who are for the change, but my sense is that if it goes to a GR vote the change
    will pass.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

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    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Saturday, March 8, 2025 4:23:56 PM MST Philip Hands wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Soren Stoutner &lt;soren@debian.org&gt; writes:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; At this point in the discussion I would like to progress toward a decision.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; </p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; One way to do so would be a GR.&nbsp; On one hand, using a GR to modify one line</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; of
  • From Andreas Metzler@21:1/5 to soren@debian.org on Sun Mar 9 06:50:01 2025
    On 2025-03-09 Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> wrote:
    On Saturday, March 8, 2025 4:23:56 PM MST Philip Hands wrote:
    [...]
    You seem to be under the impression that there's an emerging consensus
    in favour of your idea.

    Yes, I feel like there are a majority of Debian Developers who are in favor of making the
    change that I propose, partially based on the number of people who have commented
    only once in the conversation with a short message in favor of the change. I also see a
    small number of Debian Developers who are strongly opposed to the change.

    I think those who are against the change feel much more strongly about their position
    than those who are for the change, but my sense is that if it goes to a GR vote the change
    will pass.

    Personally I could not take a discussion about mail formatting seriously
    which was proposed in badly formatted mails.

    Great, you have now managed to make waste effort on this instead of
    productive work.
    cu Andreas

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Julien_Plissonneau_Duqu=C@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 9 12:30:01 2025
    Hi,

    Le 2025-03-09 00:23, Philip Hands a écrit :

    From my reading of this thread, the only real consensus seems to be
    that
    format=flowed is a good idea (as a result of which I intend to persuade
    my mail setup to generate that when I've got a moment).

    I doubt that a GR is justified, especially if all it's going to end up
    doing is adding a recommendation for format=flowed to the CoC that
    isn't
    actually required for people to adopt the use of format=flowed.

    I'm seconding this. f=f is the way to go here, and has been so for about
    the last 27 years [1] [2] [3] [4] in non-top-posting communities even
    though it's slow to ramp up, a bit like IPv6.

    Cheers,


    [1]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-822/a0d-rShA_HPKGTgFGoeF2cAZ0VQ/ [2]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-822/kgX69yZ2aTb5HNkb4HEL4gAykx4/ [3]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-822/7AZtGBeahWk_eHpJk9NS6kG-PrU/ [4]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-822/tFodnoYUlXNMmLB40bIjhoMQpnY/

    --
    Julien Plissonneau Duquène

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  • From The Wanderer@21:1/5 to Philip Hands on Sun Mar 9 22:40:01 2025
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
    On 2025-03-09 at 17:13, Philip Hands wrote:

    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:

    On Saturday, March 8, 2025 4:23:56 PM MST Philip Hands wrote:

    You seem to be under the impression that there's an emerging
    consensus in favour of your idea.

    Yes, I feel like there are a majority of Debian Developers who are
    in favor of making the change that I propose, partially based on
    the number of people who have commented only once in the
    conversation with a short message in favor of the change.

    OK, so that provoked me to check if it's my input filter that's
    defective, or yours.

    Having skimmed through the 106 mails I currently see in this thread,
    this is the way I'd summarise people's preferences (if anyone sees
    that I've mis-characterised their view, I promise it was not
    intentional, so please forgive me and correct my mistake)

    <snip>

    * Against the proposal

    <snip>

    The Wanderer

    To be fair, while I *am* against the proposal, I'm also not a Debian
    Developer - just an interested observer of, and occasional participant
    in, discussions on Debian mailing lists (including this one).

    How many of the others you listed are vs. are not Debian Developers I
    don't know, but it seems possible that that might change the calculation somewhat.

    (FWIW, I'm also not against format=flowed, but am unlikely to take any
    action regarding using it myself; I remember specifically taking action
    to *disable* it on my end at some point in the past, although I can't
    remember whether that was on the viewing end or on the sending end, nor
    can I specifically remember why. I just remember that it was producing problematic line-wrapping-related behavior in some contexts.)

    --
    The Wanderer

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
    persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
    progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw


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  • From Jonathan McDowell@21:1/5 to Philip Hands on Sun Mar 9 23:00:01 2025
    On Sun, Mar 09, 2025 at 10:13:51PM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:
    On Saturday, March 8, 2025 4:23:56 PM MST Philip Hands wrote:
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:
    At this point in the discussion I would like to progress toward a
    decision.

    One way to do so would be a GR. On one hand, using a GR to
    modify one line of the code of conduct for the mailing list seems
    like a rather large hammer for a rather small problem. But on
    the other hand, many people feel strongly enough about this that
    a GR might be the only mechanism where people will feel like the
    outcome is fair.

    My question is, is there any other decision making process that
    would be preferable to a GR to decide this issue?

    You seem to be under the impression that there's an emerging
    consensus in favour of your idea.

    Yes, I feel like there are a majority of Debian Developers who are
    in favor of making the change that I propose, partially based on the number of people who have commented only once in the conversation
    with a short message in favor of the change.

    OK, so that provoked me to check if it's my input filter that's
    defective, or yours.

    Having skimmed through the 106 mails I currently see in this thread,
    this is the way I'd summarise people's preferences (if anyone sees
    that I've mis-characterised their view, I promise it was not
    intentional, so please forgive me and correct my mistake)

    * Unclear

    Jonathan McDowell

    To clarify, given I didn't explicitly state a position, I am against the proposal that we should switch to not wrapping email text. I'm generally
    in favour of format=flowed as this seems to offer the best of both
    worlds (a graceful degradation to the current state of affairs for
    clients that don't support it, and some hints about where it's ok to
    wrap for clients that do) and have made use of Colin Watson's helpful suggestions to fix my own configuration to use this.

    I

    J.

    --
    Suburbia: where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

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  • From Philip Hands@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Sun Mar 9 22:20:01 2025
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:

    On Saturday, March 8, 2025 4:23:56 PM MST Philip Hands wrote:
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:
    At this point in the discussion I would like to progress toward a decision.

    One way to do so would be a GR. On one hand, using a GR to modify one line
    of the code of conduct for the mailing list seems like a rather large hammer
    for a rather small problem. But on the other hand, many people feel
    strongly
    enough about this that a GR might be the only mechanism where people will >> > feel like the outcome is fair.

    My question is, is there any other decision making process that would be >> > preferable to a GR to decide this issue?

    You seem to be under the impression that there's an emerging consensus
    in favour of your idea.

    Yes, I feel like there are a majority of Debian Developers who are in favor of making the
    change that I propose, partially based on the number of people who have commented
    only once in the conversation with a short message in favor of the change.

    OK, so that provoked me to check if it's my input filter that's
    defective, or yours.

    Having skimmed through the 106 mails I currently see in this thread,
    this is the way I'd summarise people's preferences (if anyone sees that
    I've mis-characterised their view, I promise it was not intentional, so
    please forgive me and correct my mistake)

    * Supporting the proposal

    Soren Stoutner
    Andrej Shadura
    Blair Noctis (as well as supporting format=flowed,
    or perhaps just anti-thunderbird)
    Tino Didriksen (or perhaps format=flowed)
    Otto Kekäläinen (or perhaps supporting Charles Plessy)

    * Against the proposal

    Jeremy Stanley
    Marco d'Itri
    Bastian Blank
    Jeremy Sowden
    The Wanderer
    Giuseppe Sacco
    gregor herrmann (while suporting format=flowed)
    Andreas Metzler

    * Advocating Format=flowed

    Andrea Pappacoda
    Jonathan Dowland
    Timo Röhling
    Aurélien COUDERC
    Colin Watson
    Aaron Rainbolt
    Jeremy Stanley
    Wookey
    Philipp Kern
    Roger Lynn (somewhat)
    Jonas Smedegaard
    Philip Hands
    Julien Plissonneau Duquène

    * Unclear

    Marvin Renich
    Vincent Lefevre (seems against though)
    Thomas Goirand
    Jonathan McDowell
    Marc Haber (but perhaps against everything ;-) )
    Stephan Verbücheln
    Holger Levsen (with strong hints of against)
    Aaron Schrab
    Bjørn Mork
    Charles Plessy (suggesting complaints should be off-list)
    Mario Limonciello (hints of format=flowed support)
    Leandro Cunha
    Thorsten Glaser (seems against though)
    IOhannes m zmölnig (perhaps a supporter)
    Stephan Verbücheln (against? at least against mixed HTML)
    Henrik Ahlgren
    Russ Allbery
    James Lu
    Andrey Rakhmatullin

    I would sumarise that as follows:

    In favour: 5 (including yourself)
    +2 (possibly)

    Against: 8
    +5 (possibly)

    for Format=Flowed: 13

    Of the 13 F=F folk, several also lean against the proposal to some extent.

    I may be over-counting your supporters (given the notes by them).

    Perhaps I'm neglecting to count some of the pro-F=F folk as also being
    in support of you, because I mis-read their mails or some such.

    Regardless, it seems clear that you are suffering from confirmation bias.

    It would be nice if you could take that into account to some extent.

    Cheers, Phil.
    --
    Philip Hands -- https://hands.com/~phil

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  • From Jonas Smedegaard@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 9 22:50:01 2025
    Quoting Philip Hands (2025-03-09 22:13:51)
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:

    On Saturday, March 8, 2025 4:23:56 PM MST Philip Hands wrote:
    Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> writes:
    At this point in the discussion I would like to progress toward a decision.

    One way to do so would be a GR. On one hand, using a GR to modify one line
    of the code of conduct for the mailing list seems like a rather large hammer
    for a rather small problem. But on the other hand, many people feel
    strongly
    enough about this that a GR might be the only mechanism where people will
    feel like the outcome is fair.

    My question is, is there any other decision making process that would be >> > preferable to a GR to decide this issue?

    You seem to be under the impression that there's an emerging consensus
    in favour of your idea.

    Yes, I feel like there are a majority of Debian Developers who are in favor of making the
    change that I propose, partially based on the number of people who have commented
    only once in the conversation with a short message in favor of the change.

    OK, so that provoked me to check if it's my input filter that's
    defective, or yours.

    Having skimmed through the 106 mails I currently see in this thread,
    this is the way I'd summarise people's preferences (if anyone sees that
    I've mis-characterised their view, I promise it was not intentional, so please forgive me and correct my mistake)

    * Supporting the proposal

    Soren Stoutner
    Andrej Shadura
    Blair Noctis (as well as supporting format=flowed,
    or perhaps just anti-thunderbird)
    Tino Didriksen (or perhaps format=flowed)
    Otto Kekäläinen (or perhaps supporting Charles Plessy)

    * Against the proposal

    Jeremy Stanley
    Marco d'Itri
    Bastian Blank
    Jeremy Sowden
    The Wanderer
    Giuseppe Sacco
    gregor herrmann (while suporting format=flowed)
    Andreas Metzler

    * Advocating Format=flowed

    Andrea Pappacoda
    Jonathan Dowland
    Timo Röhling
    Aurélien COUDERC
    Colin Watson
    Aaron Rainbolt
    Jeremy Stanley
    Wookey
    Philipp Kern
    Roger Lynn (somewhat)
    Jonas Smedegaard
    Philip Hands
    Julien Plissonneau Duquène

    * Unclear

    Marvin Renich
    Vincent Lefevre (seems against though)
    Thomas Goirand
    Jonathan McDowell
    Marc Haber (but perhaps against everything ;-) )
    Stephan Verbücheln
    Holger Levsen (with strong hints of against)
    Aaron Schrab
    Bjørn Mork
    Charles Plessy (suggesting complaints should be off-list)
    Mario Limonciello (hints of format=flowed support)
    Leandro Cunha
    Thorsten Glaser (seems against though)
    IOhannes m zmölnig (perhaps a supporter)
    Stephan Verbücheln (against? at least against mixed HTML)
    Henrik Ahlgren
    Russ Allbery
    James Lu
    Andrey Rakhmatullin

    I would sumarise that as follows:

    In favour: 5 (including yourself)
    +2 (possibly)

    Against: 8
    +5 (possibly)

    for Format=Flowed: 13

    Of the 13 F=F folk, several also lean against the proposal to some extent.

    I may be over-counting your supporters (given the notes by them).

    Perhaps I'm neglecting to count some of the pro-F=F folk as also being
    in support of you, because I mis-read their mails or some such.

    Regardless, it seems clear that you are suffering from confirmation bias.

    It would be nice if you could take that into account to some extent.

    Thanks for that, Phil.

    Sorry for being vague: I am *against* the proposal.

    - Jonas

    --
    * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
    * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
    * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

    [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private --==============)51080437649893354=MIME-Version: 1.0
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  • From Charles Plessy@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 10 01:40:01 2025
    Le Sun, Mar 09, 2025 at 10:13:51PM +0100, Philip Hands a écrit :

    Having skimmed through the 106 mails I currently see in this thread,
    this is the way I'd summarise people's preferences (if anyone sees that
    I've mis-characterised their view, I promise it was not intentional, so please forgive me and correct my mistake)

    Hi Philip and everybody,

    to be clear: I am supporting the proposition to remove the requrement to wrap lines. I would like to add that I think that we should not organise GRs on that kind of questions.

    I am also exploring the use of `text/markdown` as the default content type for my emails.

    Have a nice day,

    Charles Plessy Nagahama, Yomitan, Okinawa, Japan
    Debian Med packaging team http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
    Tooting from home https://framapiaf.org/@charles_plessy
    - You do not have my permission to use this email to train an AI -

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  • From =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Mork?=@21:1/5 to The Wanderer on Mon Mar 10 10:40:02 2025
    The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> writes:

    To be fair, while I *am* against the proposal, I'm also not a Debian Developer - just an interested observer of, and occasional participant
    in, discussions on Debian mailing lists (including this one).

    +1

    and to clarify my view on format=flowed:

    This should not be made part of any policy document at this time.

    An informal recommendation of this feature is more likely to confuse
    than help users. Application support is limited. My impression is that
    the config setting often is hard to find, if available at all. And some format=flowed implementations are too buggy to be usable.

    Those who know they can send properly formatted format=flowed emails
    should of course be allowed to do so. It is harmless and might improve readability for a few recepients.

    But I'm not a DD, so my views are completely irrelevant wrt discussions
    of a possible GR.


    Bjørn

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Julien_Plissonneau_Duqu=C@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 10 11:10:02 2025
    Hi Charles,

    Le 2025-03-10 01:32, Charles Plessy a écrit :


    [text/markdown instead of text/plain]

    That's IMO something much more interesting than text/html that should be implemented in MUAs (falling back to displaying it as text/plain
    eventually) but for now it doesn't display at all in some e.g. in
    Roundcube 1.6.10 that my service provider is using. An old version of Thunderbird displays it at text/plain.

    Cheers,

    --
    Julien Plissonneau Duquène

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  • From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 10 11:30:01 2025
    On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 11:03:49AM +0100, Julien Plissonneau Duquène wrote: >[text/markdown instead of text/plain]

    That's IMO something much more interesting than text/html that should
    be implemented in MUAs (falling back to displaying it as text/plain >eventually) but for now it doesn't display at all in some e.g. in
    Roundcube 1.6.10 that my service provider is using. An old version of >Thunderbird displays it at text/plain.

    My Mutt also displays it as it would display text/plain. I wouldn't have
    known the unusual Content-Type if I hadn't looked.

    Greetings
    Marc

    -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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  • From Timo =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hling?=@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 10 11:30:02 2025
    Hi Phil,

    * Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> [2025-03-09 22:13]:
    Of the 13 F=F folk, several also lean against the proposal to some
    extent.
    Just for the record, you may count me amongst them, too.
    I'm sympathetic to the soft line wrap cause, but one line paragraphs in text/plain is not a good solution IMHO.


    Cheers
    Timo





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    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1 23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │
    ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ ╰────────────────────────────────────────────────────╯

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  • From Stephan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Verb=FCcheln@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 10 12:40:01 2025
    Am Sonntag, dem 09.03.2025 um 22:13 +0100 schrieb Philip Hands:
    Stephan Verbücheln (against? at least against mixed HTML)

    - against mixed HTML
    - against unwrapped lines without a defined method/encoding
    - okay with format=flowed

    Disclaimer: Not a Debian developer.

    Regards


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  • From Blair Noctis@21:1/5 to Philip Hands on Mon Mar 10 13:20:01 2025
    To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org (Debian Developers)

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  • From Jeremy Stanley@21:1/5 to Charles Plessy on Mon Mar 10 14:50:01 2025
    On 2025-03-10 09:32:59 +0900 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
    [...]
    I am also exploring the use of `text/markdown` as the default
    content type for my emails.

    My groff/troff reply to your earlier suggestion of this was only
    somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Markdown isn't a singular
    clearly-specified syntax, but a family of them with several popular
    flavors in widespread use (as Timo's parser option challenges
    indicate). If anything, text/x-rst is probably a more suitable
    choice for such purposes, but Markdown vs reStructuredText religious
    wars are almost like modern reflections of the vi vs emacs
    skirmishes of yore.
    --
    Jeremy Stanley

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 10 17:10:02 2025
    Thank you for the summation Phil!

    To clarify my position: At present I am against the proposal.

    Regarding format=flowed: I would not want the CoC complicated with it at
    this time; I'd rather first gather more data on the current state of
    client support, which MUAs are in popular use for Debian lists, and
    suchlike.

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Jeremy Stanley on Mon Mar 10 17:00:01 2025
    On Mon Mar 10, 2025 at 1:41 PM GMT, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
    My groff/troff reply to your earlier suggestion of this was only
    somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Markdown isn't a singular clearly-specified syntax, but a family of them with several popular flavors in
    widespread use (as Timo's parser option challenges indicate).

    Personally I think markdown is a bust at the moment due to the lack of
    client support (and MUA behaviour with an unknown text/* type seems
    remarkably poor: falling back to plain presentation would seem the smart choice there).

    But that aside, I skimmed the RFCs for adding text/markdown and it
    supports a "variant" attribute, with a handful of dialects pre-defined
    by a sister RFC, including CommonMark, GitHub-flavoured and Pandoc.

    registration of text/markdown:
    https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7763.html

    definition of various variants, inc. CommonMark:
    https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7764#section-3.5

    That would address the ambiguity.

    It seems straightforward enough to me that Markdown's code blocks should
    not be reflowed whereas most of the rest of a Markdown document probably
    could be. (Perhaps the specs actually spell this out; I haven't
    checked).

    It's a shame that Markdown's blockquote ('> ') doesn't match how people
    do quoted emails in practice. This won't work (requires more empty lines between the tiers)

    Foo said:
    Bar said:
    Baz said:
    You're wrong
    No you're wrong
    You're both wrong

    …and when it does work, Pandoc's rendering (to 'plain') at least makes
    the tiers hard to distinguish. (assuming most other renderers will be
    the same)

    There's also no handling of signatures.


    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 14 14:49:26 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart9626583.lqRGMn8q6B
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 5:38:40 PM Mountain Standard Time Mario Limonciello
    wrote:
    <snip>


    Mario Limonciello (hints of format=flowed support)


    Thanks for the summary. I am of the camp of f=f.

    At least with the MUA I'm using most of the time (Thunderbird) this is
    the default, and no one has complained to me directly about it for any
    email sent to the Kernel community or Debian community.

    As it seems to be a polarizing discussion I do wonder if maybe it would
    make most sense to have a "proper" vote to determine which way the
    "silent majority" of developers actually lean?

    I am planning on proposing a GR, but I want to take the time to make sure I word it well. I
    expect to be able to do so in the next few days.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart9626583.lqRGMn8q6B
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 5:38:40 PM Mountain Standard Time Mario Limonciello wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &lt;snip&gt;</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mario Limonciello (hints of format=flowed support)</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margi
  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Sat Mar 15 11:00:01 2025
    On Fri Mar 14, 2025 at 9:49 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    I am planning on proposing a GR, but I want to take the time to make
    sure I word it well. I expect to be able to do so in the next few
    days.

    Short of a GR, you could determine who "owns" the CoC at the moment:
    it's not clearly a Debian document like the DFSG, policy, etc.; in fact
    it's probably the domain of the listmasters. Have you talked to them at
    all?


    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stephan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Verb=FCcheln@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 15 11:10:01 2025
    Am Montag, dem 03.03.2025 um 14:42 -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
    Interesting.  I guess that text could be interpreted as “Do not send
    an HTML part, even if you also send a plain text part.”

    Are you serious? That does not make any sense.

    Please don't send your messages in HTML; use plain text instead.
    https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/index.html

    How could it be more clear?

    However, I would appreciate it if this discussion were not hijacked
    to discuss HTML vs. plain text.

    The whole discussion requires that we know what the rules mean,
    especially if you want to change them.

    Regards

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 15 07:47:49 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart145173174.AQdONaE2Fp
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Saturday, March 15, 2025 7:41:02 AM Mountain Standard Time Antonio Terceiro wrote:
    On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 02:49:26PM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 5:38:40 PM Mountain Standard Time Mario >Limonciello>
    wrote:
    <snip>

    Mario Limonciello (hints of format=flowed support)

    Thanks for the summary. I am of the camp of f=f.

    At least with the MUA I'm using most of the time (Thunderbird) this is
    the default, and no one has complained to me directly about it for any
    email sent to the Kernel community or Debian community.

    As it seems to be a polarizing discussion I do wonder if maybe it would
    make most sense to have a "proper" vote to determine which way the
    "silent majority" of developers actually lean?

    I am planning on proposing a GR, but I want to take the time to make sure I >word it well. I expect to be able to do so in the next few days.

    Please don't. Mobilizing the entire project to discuss and vote on the
    exact format for sending plain text email is ridiculous. That silent
    majority is silent, because, well, this issue is completely irrelevant.

    It’s important enough to me.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart145173174.AQdONaE2Fp
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Saturday, March 15, 2025 7:41:02 AM Mountain Standard Time Antonio Terceiro wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 02:49:26PM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt;On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 5:38:40 PM Mountain Standard Time Mario</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt;Limonciello&gt;</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt;wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;</p>
    <p styl
  • From Antonio Terceiro@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Sat Mar 15 15:50:02 2025
    On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 02:49:26PM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 5:38:40 PM Mountain Standard Time Mario Limonciello
    wrote:
    <snip>


    Mario Limonciello (hints of format=flowed support)


    Thanks for the summary. I am of the camp of f=f.

    At least with the MUA I'm using most of the time (Thunderbird) this is
    the default, and no one has complained to me directly about it for any
    email sent to the Kernel community or Debian community.

    As it seems to be a polarizing discussion I do wonder if maybe it would
    make most sense to have a "proper" vote to determine which way the
    "silent majority" of developers actually lean?

    I am planning on proposing a GR, but I want to take the time to make sure I word it well. I
    expect to be able to do so in the next few days.

    Please don't. Mobilizing the entire project to discuss and vote on the
    exact format for sending plain text email is ridiculous. That silent
    majority is silent, because, well, this issue is completely irrelevant.

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 15 10:21:23 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart6502556.RfpFWEtPUA
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Saturday, March 15, 2025 3:08:01 AM Mountain Standard Time Stephan Verbücheln
    wrote:
    Am Montag, dem 03.03.2025 um 14:42 -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
    Interesting. I guess that text could be interpreted as “Do not send
    an HTML part, even if you also send a plain text part.”

    Are you serious? That does not make any sense.

    Please don't send your messages in HTML; use plain text instead.

    https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/index.html

    How could it be more clear?

    However, I would appreciate it if this discussion were not hijacked
    to discuss HTML vs. plain text.

    The whole discussion requires that we know what the rules mean,
    especially if you want to change them.

    Regards

    This discussion isn’t about this at all. If you would like to start a discussion about HTML,
    please feel free to do so under a different thread.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart6502556.RfpFWEtPUA
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Saturday, March 15, 2025 3:08:01 AM Mountain Standard Time Stephan Verbücheln wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Am Montag, dem 03.03.2025 um 14:42 -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; Interesting.  I guess that text could be interpreted as “Do not send</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; an HTML part, even if you also send a plain text part.”</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&g
  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 15 10:26:23 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart2965021.iC22s8V5EV
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    On Saturday, March 15, 2025 2:53:28 AM Mountain Standard Time Jonathan Dowland
    wrote:
    On Fri Mar 14, 2025 at 9:49 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    I am planning on proposing a GR, but I want to take the time to make
    sure I word it well. I expect to be able to do so in the next few
    days.

    Short of a GR, you could determine who "owns" the CoC at the moment:
    it's not clearly a Debian document like the DFSG, policy, etc.; in fact
    it's probably the domain of the listmasters. Have you talked to them at
    all?

    I thought about doing that, but those who are against this change feel so strongly about
    their position I don’t think they would accept a change made that way as valid. In
    addition, such a change doesn’t just need to apply to the mailing lists, but also to other
    interactions with Debian by email, like the BTS. Because the primary interaction that most
    people have with Debian is through email, changing the way that interaction works is a
    big enough issue that I don’t see any other appropriate way of making it outside of a GR.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart2965021.iC22s8V5EV
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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Saturday, March 15, 2025 2:53:28 AM Mountain Standard Time Jonathan Dowland wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On Fri Mar 14, 2025 at 9:49 PM GMT, Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; I am planning on proposing a GR, but I want to take the time to make</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; sure I word it well.&nbsp; I expect to be able to do so in the next few</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; days.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-r
  • From Stephan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Verb=FCcheln@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 15 20:00:02 2025
    Am Samstag, dem 15.03.2025 um 07:47 -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
    It’s important enough to me.

    Not important enough to fix your formatting and encoding, it appears.

    Regards

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  • From Andrea Pappacoda@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Sat Mar 15 19:20:01 2025
    --f8f24e498152fe76d9106122ab7b5b88dead55df7f8693981cf3977c0deb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=Flowed

    Hi Soren,

    On Sat Mar 15, 2025 at 3:47 PM CET, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    On Saturday, March 15, 2025 7:41:02 AM Mountain Standard Time Antonio Terceiro wrote:
    Please don't. Mobilizing the entire project to discuss and vote on
    the exact format for sending plain text email is ridiculous. That
    silent majority is silent, because, well, this issue is completely
    irrelevant.

    It’s important enough to me.

    I understand how you feel, but please keep in mind that changing the
    current recommendation would degrade the experience for many people.

    New recommendations, to me, should be net improvements. We've already discussed about a message format which solves your reflowing concerns,
    while not degrading the experience where hard-wrapped text is fine.

    Moreover, as Antonio said, do you really think that this matter is
    important enough to have everyone in Debian care about it?

    Rather than trying to force my opinion on everyone, I'd work to improve existing software.

    Have a nice weekend, bye :)

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  • From Tollef Fog Heen@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 15 21:00:02 2025
    ]] Soren Stoutner

    Because the primary interaction that most people have with
    Debian is through email, changing the way that interaction works
    is a big enough issue that I don’t see any other appropriate way
    of making it outside of a GR.

    Given we've never established this by way of a GR, there is
    clearly a way.

    A GR is possibly the absolute worst tool in the toolbox for
    changing norms like this.

    (Also, if you insist on posting HTML, please use proper HTML and
    not this bullshit HTML where you mark each line as a paragraph,
    with inline styling, and a quote marker instead of using the
    actual semantic HTML for, y'know, quotes.)

    -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about
    who its friends are

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 15 12:17:35 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart14165445.RDIVbhacDa
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Friday, March 14, 2025 2:49:26 PM Mountain Standard Time Soren Stoutner wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 5:38:40 PM Mountain Standard Time Mario Limonciello
    wrote:
    <snip>

    Mario Limonciello (hints of format=flowed support)

    Thanks for the summary. I am of the camp of f=f.

    At least with the MUA I'm using most of the time (Thunderbird) this is
    the default, and no one has complained to me directly about it for any email sent to the Kernel community or Debian community.

    As it seems to be a polarizing discussion I do wonder if maybe it would make most sense to have a "proper" vote to determine which way the
    "silent majority" of developers actually lean?

    I am planning on proposing a GR, but I want to take the time to make sure I word it well. I expect to be able to do so in the next few days.

    The GR can be found at:

    https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2025/03/msg00011.html

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Friday, March 14, 2025 2:49:26 PM Mountain Standard Time Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 5:38:40 PM Mountain Standard Time Mario</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Limonciello</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; &lt;snip&gt;</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; </p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp;
  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 15 12:16:54 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart9470056.rMLUfLXkoz
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    On Saturday, March 15, 2025 11:19:25 AM Mountain Standard Time Andrea Pappacoda
    wrote:
    Hi Soren,

    On Sat Mar 15, 2025 at 3:47 PM CET, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    On Saturday, March 15, 2025 7:41:02 AM Mountain Standard Time Antonio

    Terceiro wrote:
    Please don't. Mobilizing the entire project to discuss and vote on
    the exact format for sending plain text email is ridiculous. That
    silent majority is silent, because, well, this issue is completely
    irrelevant.

    It’s important enough to me.

    I understand how you feel, but please keep in mind that changing the
    current recommendation would degrade the experience for many people.

    I feel like the current requirement degrades the experience for many people.

    New recommendations, to me, should be net improvements. We've already discussed about a message format which solves your reflowing concerns,
    while not degrading the experience where hard-wrapped text is fine.

    I feel like my proposal is a vast net improvement, although I do understand that it would
    degrade the workflow of a small number of people. However, on balance, with the
    number of people who would have an improved workflow vs. the number of people who
    would have a degraded workflow, I think it is the correct decision for Debian as a whole.

    Moreover, as Antonio said, do you really think that this matter is
    important enough to have everyone in Debian care about it?

    Yes, I do. I sat on this idea for a while before my first post to make sure I really felt it was
    worth the effort it would take and that it really mattered enough to pursue.

    Email is the way the majority of people interface with Debian. Having a good email
    experience is therefore worth the attention of the entire Debian community.

    Rather than trying to force my opinion on everyone, I'd work to improve existing software.

    I agree. That is why I think, given the current state of affairs, it is inappropriate for the
    code of conduct to force a particular column width on anyone.


    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Saturday, March 15, 2025 11:19:25 AM Mountain Standard Time Andrea Pappacoda wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Hi Soren,</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On Sat Mar 15, 2025 at 3:47 PM CET, Soren Stoutner wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; On Saturday, March 15, 2025 7:41:02 AM Mountain Standard Time Antonio</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; </p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-le
  • From Christoph Berg@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 15 21:50:02 2025
    Re: Soren Stoutner
    I thought about doing that, but those who are against this change feel so strongly about
    their position I don’t think they would accept a change made that way as valid. In
    addition, such a change doesn’t just need to apply to the mailing lists, but also to other
    interactions with Debian by email, like the BTS. Because the primary interaction that most
    people have with Debian is through email, changing the way that interaction works is a
    big enough issue that I don’t see any other appropriate way of making it outside of a GR.

    So, you've joined Debian a mere half a year ago, and now instead of
    talking to people about changing something, you are starting a GR just
    to make sure everyone gets to know an idea that will go nowhere
    anyway?

    Please get a life.

    https://xkcd.com/793/

    Christoph

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  • From Carsten Schoenert@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 16 15:20:01 2025
    Am 15.03.25 um 16:47 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
    On Saturday, March 15, 2025 7:41:02 AM Mountain Standard Time Antonio Terceiro wrote:
    Please don't. Mobilizing the entire project to discuss and vote on the
    exact format for sending plain text email is ridiculous. That silent
    majority is silent, because, well, this issue is completely irrelevant.

    It’s important enough to me.

    Deeply I second what Antonio, Christoph, Tolleg and others already
    answered to you!

    With every email you write more about this non topic to obviously most
    of the longer time DDs you disqualifies yourself more in my eyes.

    What is the gain for the project?
    What do our users get from this? You hopefully still know, the users are
    our priorities (due the Social Contract §4 you've agreed on while your
    DD application), not to steel time from other Debian colleagues while
    the freeze for the next Stable Release has started!
    How many bug reports do you have worked the past days since you started
    your own fight on d-d?
    Do you have fixed or worked on some RC reports since then? There are
    more! :-)
    Wont you see that the kind you behave isn't the right one at the moment?
    Did you think about what the outer world outside Debian will think about
    this? What you doing isn't helpful now. We are not a debating club.

    You can start a GR, yes that's the right you have now. But must this
    happen *right now*? Again, the freeze has started! And you are also
    aware that a GR is the last option we have in Debian? You should, you
    are a DD!
    Do you don't have time to work on this after we have released Trixie?

    Calm down, take some free time and relax!
    I'm at least not on a mission, I'm doing working on and in Debian
    because it's fun for me, but what you doing isn't fun anymore.
    You enforce other Debianities to waist their time, now and also at the
    time if the GR is come to reality!

    My first and last statement about this shit here.
    Please don't answer.

    --
    Regards
    Carsten

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  • From Guillem Jover@21:1/5 to Colin Watson on Sun Mar 16 18:20:01 2025
    Hi!

    On Thu, 2025-02-27 at 13:29:59 +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
    This thread did, however, cause me to work out how to configure my
    mailer to send format=flowed, since it does look as though that's
    somewhat nicer for receivers who aren't using the same kind of
    dinosaur setup as I am, and support seems to have improved since the
    last time I looked at this eons ago. I needed this in ~/.config/nvim/init.vim (should also work in ~/.vimrc):

    au FileType mail setlocal formatoptions+=w

    And this in ~/.muttrc:

    set text_flowed

    That seems to work pretty well. I reflowed the parts of your
    message that I quoted here to match.

    Thanks! I tried this when you posted it and it worked fine when sending original mails, but I then noticed when editing a reply, it mangled
    the quoting by removing all spaces between the quoting markers (">"),
    which briefly checking now seems to be working as specified in the RFC,
    such as:

    # On time+3, Carol wrote:
    # >On time+2, Bob wrote:
    # >>On time+1, Alice wrote:
    # >>>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or
    # >>>so, continued.
    # >>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so,
    # >>continued.
    # >Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so,
    # >continued.
    # Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so,
    # continued.

    Which I find to be very annoying and hard to read from my editor (vim).
    And checking how this is shown now in mutt (before sending), with
    text_flowed disabled, but reflow_text enabled, indicates to me the
    mangling is worse than I thought, but perhaps it's just reflow_text being applied to a text that is not yet sent and will not be format=flowed,
    thus should not really be applied to, otherwise you might need to check
    the raw text of the mail. :/

    So I've since disabled text_flowed=yes again. If someone knows of a way
    to avoid this mangling that mutt does for the file to be edited, I might reconsider enabling it, but otherwise this looks like a blocker to me.
    I'm also concerned with the disparity between the presented text and
    the sent text, which I guess could also affect inlined patches or similar
    text that should not be mangled? (But at this point I've not tried experimenting further with that, as it seems not worth the effort, given
    the above.)

    My muttrc config was:

    set text_flowed=yes
    set reflow_text=yes
    set reflow_wrap=70
    set reflow_space_quotes=yes

    My vimrc config was:

    autocmd FileType mail setlocal spell textwidth=70 formatoptions+=w

    Thanks,
    Guillem

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  • From Guillem Jover@21:1/5 to Guillem Jover on Sun Mar 16 19:00:01 2025
    Hi!

    On Sun, 2025-03-16 at 18:18:58 +0100, Guillem Jover wrote:
    […]
    such as:

    # On time+3, Carol wrote:
    # >On time+2, Bob wrote:
    # >>On time+1, Alice wrote:
    # >>>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or
    # >>>so, continued.
    # >>Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so,
    # >>continued.
    # >Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so,
    # >continued.
    # Some long reply line that supposedly gets wrapper at 7x chars or so,
    # continued.

    Which I find to be very annoying and hard to read from my editor (vim).
    And checking how this is shown now in mutt (before sending), with
    text_flowed disabled, but reflow_text enabled, indicates to me the
    mangling is worse than I thought, but perhaps it's just reflow_text being applied to a text that is not yet sent and will not be format=flowed,
    thus should not really be applied to, otherwise you might need to check
    the raw text of the mail. :/

    Ah, sorry, it looks like I started drafting that reply with
    text_flowed enabled, and that was preserved after postponing and
    continuing with a new mutt session with the option disabled. (Hopefully
    the example is seen correctly now.)

    Thanks,
    Guillem

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  • From Paul Tagliamonte@21:1/5 to Carsten Schoenert on Sun Mar 16 18:50:02 2025
    On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 04:17:11PM +0200, Carsten Schoenert wrote:
    With every email you write more about this non topic to obviously most
    of the longer time DDs you disqualifies yourself more in my eyes.

    [snip]

    Sorry this is replying to you, Carsten -- this isn't about your message
    really -- since this is an attitude that I've seen a lot of on this
    thread. Don't take this personally, it's a more general comment.

    Debian has done a (IMHO great) job avoiding a caste system within the
    project. As soon as someone gets their project membership, they have
    the same constitutionally defined permissions as any other member.
    It was a big discussion around adding DMs, and it was a big point of discussion for allowing DDs without upload rights full project rights.

    "Time Served" in the Debian mines or wasta isn't a qualification for
    raising a GR. In fact, if I had to draw a correlation line, I think time
    spent in the project is only really indicative of how generally grumpy
    someone is. Myself included. No one is more a DD because they are
    entrusted to serve a job in the project, be it DPL, delegate, secretary
    or what have you.

    To be clear, I remain of the view that I think this GR effort is
    misguided and sets a bad precedent. The more I think about and read
    this, the more it strikes me as something that would be yet another step
    in the directon of defeating the purpose of delegates -- forcing project design by committee / most beige outcome, all to avoid having a
    conversation with people doing the work.

    It's frustrating because I think f=f is the right technical outcome
    here. I'm just not convinced that the series of actions taken here is
    going to result in any progress. In fact, I think it may do the
    opposite.

    This GR is flawed, IMVHO, on the merits -- we should affirm our trust
    and confidence in the listmaster@ team, and to the extent to which this matters to the BTS, the bts admins. Delegates work together. Roles
    overlap. Doing it via GR is only going to build resentment throughout
    the project over something no one ever tried to broker an agreement with
    the relevant folks -- where there may even be some consensus on what we
    want to do going forward.

    We don't know **because no one asked**. Doing it this way will entrench
    the two sides of this topic and we'll be stuck with no progress and more ~~feelings~~ as a result.

    However, this GR is not flawed because Soren is a "new DD". That has
    nothing to do with this and -- with so much respect and affection for
    all of you -- I think that attitude fucking sucks. Soren has every right
    to suggest this GR. I just disagree it's a good idea for the project and
    how we get work done. There is **no** reason a DD who got their account
    5 minutes prior can't suggest a GR if they know what they're doing.

    With love,
    paultag

    --
    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Paul Tagliamonte <paultag>
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ https://people.debian.org/~paultag | https://pault.ag/
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ Debian, the universal operating system.
    ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀ 4096R / FEF2 EB20 16E6 A856 B98C E820 2DCD 6B5D E858 ADF3

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  • From Philipp Kern@21:1/5 to Paul Tagliamonte on Sun Mar 16 20:10:02 2025
    On 3/16/25 6:40 PM, Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
    However, this GR is not flawed because Soren is a "new DD". That has
    nothing to do with this and -- with so much respect and affection for
    all of you -- I think that attitude fucking sucks. Soren has every right
    to suggest this GR. I just disagree it's a good idea for the project and
    how we get work done. There is **no** reason a DD who got their account
    5 minutes prior can't suggest a GR if they know what they're doing.

    They can suggest a GR, that's their right. They'd also need K=5 people
    to support it.

    If we really make this about how to communicate, maybe we should be
    bolder and consider solutions like Discourse. Which would also have
    built-in chilling support to discourage from posting too frequently on a
    topic in favor of addressing multiple points at once.

    Kind regards
    Philipp Kern

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