Branden,

On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 05:38:23AM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote:

Prompted in part by many years of reflection on the project's strengths
and weaknesses, I have a slate of recommendations regarding the
management of delegates under section 8 of the Debian Constitution.[1]

[...]

One can embrace any of the foregoing proposals for any reasons one
likes. I offer my own rationales below so that people understand why I
take the trouble to write, but do not ask that anyone hold my views.

Your email is titled "Q for nominees", however in all of its 1,000 words
I struggled to find a single question. As you state in the headings of
the sections I quoted above, they are "a slate of recommendations" and "proposals".

It sounds like you have a concrete and well-formed view on this matter,
which you've aptly described as a "structural reform". Therefore, I wish
you had nominated yourself for DPL. I believe this would have been a
productive way to contribute and would demonstrate leadership abilities.
It would mean putting your agenda and elaborate thought process under
the necessary scrutiny, and ultimately, to a vote. Conversely, I believe
the project would have benefited from a conclusion (one way or another)
at the end of the voting period.

However, given that you chose to not stand for election, I find it
unfair to ask the people that were gracious and brave enough to run to
rebut your pseudo-platform.

I also find it to be disrespectful of their precious time and attention
as well as our collective time. We, subscribers to this list, are here
in this moment to learn more about the candidates and their vision for
the future. We are not here to read, or discuss, 1,000-word reform
proposals that are not under any kind of vote.

Moreover, I believe your message has the potential of causing harm, by
risking another lengthy debate in a public space, rehashing arguments
that have been already made elsewhere, and stirring a controversy that
could further divide the project and further demotivate and alienate
some of its members. We've seen some of our colleagues disengage from
other spaces in order to maintain their mental health and motivation,
precisely in an attempt to avoid this kind of controversy. Moving it
shortly thereafter to a list where they're more than likely to be
present (and where for the health of the electorate we *want* them to
continue to be present) feels quite inconsiderate to them.

(For what it's worth, I do not intend to debate this, certainly not by exchanging point-by-point responses and certainly not in debian-vote.)

Respectfully,
Faidon

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On 20 March 2025 7:34:08 pm IST, Faidon Liambotis <paravoid@debian.org> wrote:

Branden,

On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 05:38:23AM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote:

Prompted in part by many years of reflection on the project's strengths
and weaknesses, I have a slate of recommendations regarding the
management of delegates under section 8 of the Debian Constitution.[1]

[...]

One can embrace any of the foregoing proposals for any reasons one
likes. I offer my own rationales below so that people understand why I
take the trouble to write, but do not ask that anyone hold my views.

Your email is titled "Q for nominees", however in all of its 1,000 words
I struggled to find a single question.

Totally. I burnt a few minutes of my day reading it as well while I was hoping to actually find a question out of all of this.

At this point I'll have to unfortunately stop reading all mails from you, Branden. Very sorry about this but the signal to noise ratio has receded beyond an acceptable limit here.


Best,
Nilesh

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"G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote on 20/03/2025 at 11:38:23+0100:

Dear nominees,

Thank you for standing for the office of Debian Project Leader (DPL).

Prompted in part by many years of reflection on the project's strengths
and weaknesses, I have a slate of recommendations regarding the
management of delegates under section 8 of the Debian Constitution.[1]

[snip]

Could you ***please*** stop diverting the project's human resources (I
mean, volunteer's time) for the crusade you decided to run because some
guy in a (willingly built without any enforcement capability) team told
you to mind a bit before sending a mail?

This looks more and more like basic trolling and it's becoming irksome.

--
PEB

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On Thursday, March 20, 2025 7:04:08 AM Mountain Standard Time Faidon Liambotis wrote:

Branden,

On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 05:38:23AM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote:

Prompted in part by many years of reflection on the project's
strengths and weaknesses, I have a slate of recommendations
regarding the management of delegates under section 8 of the
Debian Constitution.[1]

[...]

One can embrace any of the foregoing proposals for any reasons one
likes. I offer my own rationales below so that people understand
why I take the trouble to write, but do not ask that anyone hold
my views.

Your email is titled "Q for nominees", however in all of its 1,000
words I struggled to find a single question. As you state in the
headings of the sections I quoted above, they are "a slate of recommendations" and "proposals".

I believe the question is if the nominees would be willing to support
the ideas explained in this email.

I feel it is appropriate to ask nominees for the DPL what they think
about specific issues as well as if they would support specific actions/solutions to problems.

At the time of this writing three people have expressed disapproval of
the email Branden wrote. I have partially quoted one of them above,
but the sentiments of the others are similar, saying that Branden’s
email was either a waste of their time or inappropriate. My purpose
with this response is just to say that I had the opposite reaction,
which was his email was both worth my time and appropriate.

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
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Quoting Soren Stoutner (2025-03-20 19:35:10)

On Thursday, March 20, 2025 7:04:08 AM Mountain Standard Time Faidon Liambotis wrote:

Branden,

On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 05:38:23AM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote:

Prompted in part by many years of reflection on the project's
strengths and weaknesses, I have a slate of recommendations
regarding the management of delegates under section 8 of the
Debian Constitution.[1]

[...]

One can embrace any of the foregoing proposals for any reasons one
likes. I offer my own rationales below so that people understand
why I take the trouble to write, but do not ask that anyone hold
my views.

Your email is titled "Q for nominees", however in all of its 1,000
words I struggled to find a single question. As you state in the
headings of the sections I quoted above, they are "a slate of recommendations" and "proposals".

I believe the question is if the nominees would be willing to support
the ideas explained in this email.

I feel it is appropriate to ask nominees for the DPL what they think
about specific issues as well as if they would support specific actions/solutions to problems.

At the time of this writing three people have expressed disapproval of
the email Branden wrote. I have partially quoted one of them above,
but the sentiments of the others are similar, saying that Branden’s
email was either a waste of their time or inappropriate. My purpose
with this response is just to say that I had the opposite reaction,
which was his email was both worth my time and appropriate.

I similarly found the implied question from Branden appropriate, and
hereby second the encouragement for the candidates to express their
opinions on the proposed changes.

Of course, silence is also a way to express opinion, but I would find
that a troublesome approach for a candidate for Debian Leader to not
even bother to state an opinion on a matter explicitly put forward in
the context of sheding light on the political views of the candidates.
If, as the non-candidate reactions seem ti indicate, this is a horrible
can of worms that I just happen to be ignorant about, then state that -
no need to open the can if you judge that to be too painful (for you or
for me or whatever).

- Jonas

--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
* Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

[x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private --==============407038147320055199=MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 2025-03-20 20:35:01 +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

Quoting Soren Stoutner (2025-03-20 19:35:10)

On Thursday, March 20, 2025 7:04:08 AM Mountain Standard Time Faidon >>Liambotis wrote:

Branden,

On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 05:38:23AM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote: >>>>Prompted in part by many years of reflection on the project's

strengths and weaknesses, I have a slate of recommendations
regarding the management of delegates under section 8 of the
Debian Constitution.[1]

[...]

One can embrace any of the foregoing proposals for any reasons one >>>>likes. I offer my own rationales below so that people understand
why I take the trouble to write, but do not ask that anyone hold
my views.

Your email is titled "Q for nominees", however in all of its 1,000
words I struggled to find a single question. As you state in the
headings of the sections I quoted above, they are "a slate of >>>recommendations" and "proposals".

I believe the question is if the nominees would be willing to support
the ideas explained in this email.

I feel it is appropriate to ask nominees for the DPL what they think
about specific issues as well as if they would support specific >>actions/solutions to problems.

At the time of this writing three people have expressed disapproval of
the email Branden wrote. I have partially quoted one of them above,
but the sentiments of the others are similar, saying that Branden’s
email was either a waste of their time or inappropriate. My purpose
with this response is just to say that I had the opposite reaction,
which was his email was both worth my time and appropriate.

I similarly found the implied question from Branden appropriate, and
hereby second the encouragement for the candidates to express their
opinions on the proposed changes.

Of course, silence is also a way to express opinion, but I would find
that a troublesome approach for a candidate for Debian Leader to not
even bother to state an opinion on a matter explicitly put forward in
the context of sheding light on the political views of the candidates.
If, as the non-candidate reactions seem ti indicate, this is a horrible
can of worms that I just happen to be ignorant about, then state that -
no need to open the can if you judge that to be too painful (for you or
for me or whatever).

I agree with Soren and Jonas.

In particular, I find Branden's posts to be very appropriate, informative, and well-prepared.

I also agree with what Branden proposes in his email.

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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 10:09:52AM +1100, Aníbal Monsalve Salazar wrote:

I also agree with what Branden proposes in his email.

lolwut, can you paraphrase that into 5*80 characters please?


--
cheers,
Holger

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
⠈⠳⣄

The wrong Amazon is burning.

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Quoting Holger Levsen (2025-03-21 00:21:05)

On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 10:09:52AM +1100, Aníbal Monsalve Salazar wrote:

I also agree with what Branden proposes in his email.

lolwut, can you paraphrase that into 5*80 characters please?

I find that joke far too personally loaded, towards a person taking
part in this very email, thread, about a topic that is totally
independent of it. In other words, I find this to be harrassment.

Please don't, and please consider apologizing.

- Jonas

--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
* Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

[x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private --==============v84545777629205516=MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Jonas,
[just following a hint from Sam Hartman to use top posting in such
kind of discussions]

Please take my deliberate silence as a signal that, as a potential DPL,
I am not willing to reinforce a pattern that has been frequently
criticized. However, I am happy to answer any explicit question.

Kind regards
Andreas.

Am Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 08:35:01PM +0100 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard:

I similarly found the implied question from Branden appropriate, and
hereby second the encouragement for the candidates to express their
opinions on the proposed changes.

Of course, silence is also a way to express opinion, but I would find
that a troublesome approach for a candidate for Debian Leader to not
even bother to state an opinion on a matter explicitly put forward in
the context of sheding light on the political views of the candidates.
If, as the non-candidate reactions seem ti indicate, this is a horrible
can of worms that I just happen to be ignorant about, then state that -
no need to open the can if you judge that to be too painful (for you or
for me or whatever).

- Jonas

--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
* Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

[x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private

--
https://fam-tille.de

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I think questions should be short and end with a question mark.
I wanted to write some more detailed answers in previous questions, but I also know
that writing long emails have two bad side effects:
1) I waste people time if I dont summarize enough
2) I have less and less readers every additional word I write.

The questions for DPL should be concise, easily readable for non-native speakers,
and require possibly short answers (and try to avoid flames, I never play part of
flame wars game, I like to spend my time with activities that makes me feel better
not worse).

For this reason I'll happily answer you if you can provide the above.

Thanks,

Gianfranco

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, March 26, 2025 11:45:04 AM Mountain Standard Time Bill Allombert wrote:

Le Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 06:55:15PM +0100, Pierre-Elliott Bécue a

écrit :

"G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote on

20/03/2025 at 11:38:23+0100:

Dear nominees,

Thank you for standing for the office of Debian Project Leader
(DPL).

Prompted in part by many years of reflection on the project's
strengths and weaknesses, I have a slate of recommendations
regarding the management of delegates under section 8 of the
Debian Constitution.[1]

[snip]

Could you ***please*** stop diverting the project's human
resources (I mean, volunteer's time) for the crusade you decided
to run because some guy in a (willingly built without any
enforcement capability) team told you to mind a bit before
sending a mail?

This looks more and more like basic trolling and it's becoming
irksome.

You are not a nominee so you do not have to read this post.

Branden has been DPL in the past, so he might very well have some
experience to contribute.

Branden email are always politely worded and non-agressive which is
more than can be said of your own posts, starting with this one,
which I am frankly unsure why you think this is acceptable on this
list. At the very least, this should disqualify you of complaining
to the CT.

I second that. Long emails are not against the code of conduct, but
impolite ones are.

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Le Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 06:55:15PM +0100, Pierre-Elliott B�cue a �crit :

"G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote on 20/03/2025 at 11:38:23+0100:

Dear nominees,

Thank you for standing for the office of Debian Project Leader (DPL).

Prompted in part by many years of reflection on the project's strengths
and weaknesses, I have a slate of recommendations regarding the
management of delegates under section 8 of the Debian Constitution.[1]

[snip]

Could you ***please*** stop diverting the project's human resources (I
mean, volunteer's time) for the crusade you decided to run because some
guy in a (willingly built without any enforcement capability) team told
you to mind a bit before sending a mail?

This looks more and more like basic trolling and it's becoming irksome.

You are not a nominee so you do not have to read this post.

Branden has been DPL in the past, so he might very well have some
experience to contribute.

Branden email are always politely worded and non-agressive which is more
than can be said of your own posts, starting with this one, which I am
frankly unsure why you think this is acceptable on this list. At the
very least, this should disqualify you of complaining to the CT.

Cheers,
--
Bill. <ballombe@debian.org>

Imagine a large red swirl here.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, Mar 26, 2025 at 11:46:50AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:

I second that. Long emails are not against the code of conduct, but impolite ones are.

https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct reads:

1. be respectful - this implies...
3. be collaborative - this implies...
4. try to be concise: "Keep in mind that what you write once will be read
by hundreds of persons. Writing a short email means people can understand
the conversation as efficiently as possible. When a long explanation is
necessary, consider adding a summary."

So I would argue that long emails can very much be against the code of
conduct.

That said, I'd like to explicitly thank Branden for "re-"posting his questions as questions and rather brief as well.


--
cheers,
Holger

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
⠈⠳⣄

If you accept that non-citizens have no right to due process, you are accepting that citizens have no right to due process. All the government has to do is claim that you are not a citizen; without due process you have no chance to prove the contrary. (Timothy Snyder)

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On Thursday, March 27, 2025 4:07:49 AM Mountain Standard Time Holger
Levsen wrote:

On Wed, Mar 26, 2025 at 11:46:50AM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:

I second that. Long emails are not against the code of conduct,
but impolite ones are.

https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct reads:

1. be respectful - this implies...
3. be collaborative - this implies...
4. try to be concise: "Keep in mind that what you write once will be
read by hundreds of persons. Writing a short email means people can understand the conversation as efficiently as possible. When a long explanation is necessary, consider adding a summary."

So I would argue that long emails can very much be against the code
of conduct.

When I wrote the above statement, I was actually referring to the listmaster’s Code of Conduct.

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

Specifically:

“The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are
not welcome.”

“Try not to flame; it is not polite.”

In fairness, above this list it links to the main Debian Code of
Conduct, which you referenced. However, I think it supports the same
argument I was making. According to point 4, long emails *can* be
against the Code of Conduct, provided they are unnecessarily long.
However, It does not say that all long emails are against the Code of
Conduct. This can be observed in the text itself. Number 1 doesn’t
say, “Try to be resectful”. It says “Be respectful”. Because when it comes to respectful, there is no “try”, there is only “do”. But for number 4, it says “try” and “consider” because sometimes emails just need to be long.

Whether an email is necessarily long or unnecessarily long is a fairly subjective assessment. Sometimes important issues simply require a
lot of words to cover fairly.

Whether an email is respectful is also a fairly subjective assessment,
but usually easier to make than if an email is unnecessarily long. In
the case of this particular discussion, some of the people who have
complained about the length of emails have done so in a way that was
not respectful by any definition of the word.

So, the point I was making is that those who were being rude while
claiming the emails were too long were committing an obvious breach of
the Code of Conduct, much worse than any problems caused by the length
of the emails they were responding to.

To quote the text of point 1.

"In a project the size of Debian, inevitably there will be people with
whom you may disagree, or find it difficult to cooperate. Accept that,
but even so, remain respectful. **Disagreement is no excuse for poor
behaviour or personal attacks**, and a community in which people feel threatened is not a healthy community."

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> wrote on 26/03/2025 at 19:45:04+0100:

Le Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 06:55:15PM +0100, Pierre-Elliott Bécue a écrit :

"G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote on 20/03/2025 at 11:38:23+0100:

Dear nominees,

Thank you for standing for the office of Debian Project Leader (DPL).

Prompted in part by many years of reflection on the project's strengths
and weaknesses, I have a slate of recommendations regarding the
management of delegates under section 8 of the Debian Constitution.[1]

[snip]

Could you ***please*** stop diverting the project's human resources (I
mean, volunteer's time) for the crusade you decided to run because some
guy in a (willingly built without any enforcement capability) team told
you to mind a bit before sending a mail?

This looks more and more like basic trolling and it's becoming irksome.

You are not a nominee so you do not have to read this post.

Of course I have to, like all the rant on other lists, because this mess
is about critical aspects of the project.

Branden has been DPL in the past, so he might very well have some
experience to contribute.

I'm not receptive to authority arguments, which, in general are not
sensible.

Also, everybody can do well at some point and do bad later.

Branden email are always politely worded and non-agressive

Let's agree to disagree.

which is more than can be said of your own posts, starting with this
one, which I am frankly unsure why you think this is acceptable on
this list. At the very least, this should disqualify you of
complaining to the CT.

That's great, because I have no intent to complain to CT and I don't
even understand why you bring this matter.

--
PEB

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Le Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 04:04:08PM +0200, Faidon Liambotis a �crit :

Branden,

Your email is titled "Q for nominees", however in all of its 1,000 words
I struggled to find a single question.

Just after bullet 5.

"I ask the nominees to publicly endorse the foregoing proposals, or
articulate why they feel they cannot."

Cheers,
Bill.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)