Hi Gene,
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist. You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
Suggests: orca
Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
to will be very helpful.
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
.
This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its
yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally
have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in
the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90%
of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors. The
first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked
the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for
orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I
don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the installer
ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve
left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing
on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss
about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:<snip>
How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its
yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally
have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in
the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90%
of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors. The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked
the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for
orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I
don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the installer
ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve
left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing
on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss
about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$
Hi Gene,How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline >> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd >> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your >> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't >> run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
  Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Suggests: orca
  Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and >> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you >> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
to will be very helpful.
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checkedagain with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
gene heskett wrote:brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$
How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and
And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all that again. Until theagain with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is unacceptable to you.
On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental
checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced >>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables,
hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a
baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out
of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless
keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it
did, I'd
have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz
and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes
firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then
add your
Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since
we don't
run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then
re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want.
Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
  Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Suggests: orca
  Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those
packages and
see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out
for you
but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you
got
to will be very helpful.
Hi Gene,How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to >>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the
fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install
insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've
done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a
second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm
blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The
delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful
when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to
announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud
enough to wake the neighbors. The first 23 installs never asked me if
I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not
reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable,
the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through
all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because it
thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion
that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it
now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked
again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to
destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken
installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
 Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
 Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
 Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
 Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11
If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to
remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed packages other than the four listed above.
apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
 Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
 Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
 Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is
unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the
process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca),
that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with
a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that
box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that
leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user
task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.
Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef |
grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a
necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,
I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
Regards,
Tom Dial
.
.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it.
On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:Hi Gene,
Hi Gene,How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental
checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced >>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables,
hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a
baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out
of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless
keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it
did, I'd
have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz
and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes
firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then
add your
Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since
we don't
run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then
re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want.
Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
  Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Suggests: orca
  Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those
packages and
see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out
for you
but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you
got
to will be very helpful.
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to >>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the
fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install
insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've
done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a
second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm
blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The
delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful
when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to
announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud
enough to wake the neighbors. The first 23 installs never asked me if
I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not
reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable,
the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through
all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because it
thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion
that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it
now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked
again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to
destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken
installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
 Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
 Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
 Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
 Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11
If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to
remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed packages other than the four listed above.
apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
 Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
 Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
 Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is
unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the
process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca),
that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with
a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that
box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that
leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user
task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.
Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef |
grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a
necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,
I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
Regards,
Tom Dial
.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
.
On Wed, Jun 05, 2024 at 10:58:22AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:autoremove is the first command of my update script. Designed to get rid
Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with >> a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it.
"assume"
This is your fundamental problem here. Do you know what the "gnome"
package actually contains?
hobbit:~$ apt-cache show gnome
Package: gnome
Source: meta-gnome3
Version: 1:43+1
Installed-Size: 14
[...]
Installed size is 14. I'm pretty sure that's kilobytes.
"gnome" is a meta-package. Its purpose is to depend on a whole bunch
of other packages. That's all. It doesn't actually do anything by
itself.
Removing "gnome" will not remove any functionality, because "gnome" does
not *have* any functionality.
As long as you don't do an "apt-get autoremove" afterward, nothing else
will be deleted, other than what apt-get told you it was going to delete.
.
As long as you don't do an "apt-get autoremove" afterward, nothing else will be deleted, other than what apt-get told you it was going to delete.
autoremove is the first command of my update script. Designed to get rid of old kernels.
But that still doesn't answer the question, How much longer till trixie is official? I even put a ? mark on it.
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got to will be very helpful.
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its
yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core
I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors. The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable
it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go
through all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
On Tue, Jun 04, 2024 at 06:26:31AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are proposing
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and >>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you >>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got >>> to will be very helpful.
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to >>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This
release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on
installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some
installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its
yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have
orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ >> but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core >> I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or
mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors. The first 23 installs >> never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable >> it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it
usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go
through all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because it >> thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I >> do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it
insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with
synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, >> Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not
broken'.
How long until trixie is out? Could be 12-15 months.
Are you still running Bullseye there? if so, you should probably upgrade
to Bookworm sometime soon.
Given that I wrote this to you two years ago: you didn't actually take
the suggestion and reinstall. That's OK - but nobody has ever been able
to get to the root cause of brokenness here. Is it a Gene problem or a problem that hits other people more widely? We don't have details.
I see someone else has suggested strip a machine down to nothing and
do a clean install with Debian 12.5. Honestly, that's what I'd do.
If you can't/don't want to take this machine apart - find a spare
machine and do a Debian text mode install then install TDE.
At that point, you'll have a control - a counterpart that you can
check and you'll have done a complete install.
The suggestion that you can remove things and get it to work the
way you want is only valid if you can tell us *exactly* what you've
done so one of us can reproduce the problem. At this distance, that's unlikely. It's not a complete cop-out but it would be easier if you could
do some sort of clean install. I'd help walk you through the steps: at
this rate, it might have been quicker for me to just airfreight you a
working machine :)
All the very best, as ever,
AndyCheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
(amacater@debian.org)
I always get re-install instructions. Frustrating.
So this is the umptieth time I've asked how to fix it, and got recipes
for re-installing the basic system as an answer. Mike gave me instructs
to run a couple commands, once normally, once while it was hung but the
2nd comnnand I fed to wc -l and got almost 300k lines. Difficult to do
in real time because the command itself is subject to the lockout lag.
But in asking how to get rid of [orca], the subject
is always changed and I always get re-install instructions.
gene heskett composed on 2024-06-05 11:21 (UTC-0400):
I always get re-install instructions. Frustrating.
Should you choose to accept any fresh installation suggestion by doing another,
consider removing the sound card from its slot, or disabling the motherboard's
sound device in BIOS setup, whichever is applicable, before beginning installation, as a possible thwart to the Gnome must have everything paradigm, if
blocking Gnome entirely is unacceptable.
As a side note to installation: as soon as a fresh installation seems suitably
complete, but before adding any additional software, create a compressed / filesystem partition backup image to facilitate any need for a consequent do-over.
gene heskett composed on 2024-06-05 17:08 (UTC-0400):
So this is the umptieth time I've asked how to fix it, and got recipes
for re-installing the basic system as an answer. Mike gave me instructs
to run a couple commands, once normally, once while it was hung but the
2nd comnnand I fed to wc -l and got almost 300k lines. Difficult to do
in real time because the command itself is subject to the lockout lag.
Answering a help request like this one is a toughie. It's commonly necessary to
reproduce both hardware configuration and software configuration in order to try
to address the problem. That can be quite complicated, and time consumptive. Here
it seems we may have a shortage from both helper and helpee, not necessarily a
fault of either, but a puzzle with missing pieces, in addition to some pieces that
don't belong to the puzzle (history tomes; not being concise). Could it also be
that we have too many cooks in the kitchen here too?
On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV >>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental
checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down /
reduced
power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder
cables, hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a
baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you
out of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial
state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on.
Wireless keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it
did, I'd
have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz
and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes
firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then
add your
Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since
we don't
run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then
re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want.
Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by >>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
  Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Suggests: orca
  Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those
packages and
see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out
for you
but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where
you got
to will be very helpful.
Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I
assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its
dependency's with it. Thanks Tom.
Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate action
from all others?
I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this
discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch
installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. And
on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt install
-s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would not
install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome installation
makes no reference at all to brltty.
Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in
suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove
brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know whether
that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if maybe barely possible.
Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt
purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Hi Gene,How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I
got to
step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll >>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding >>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that >>>>> hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in
the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the
install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o
asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from
wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me
because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the
computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do
work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5
yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke
or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors. The first
23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked
the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for
orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and
I don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the
installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have
only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another
install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on
removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with
synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the
system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is
"won't fix, not broken'.
I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca provide,
and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I
have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
  Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11
If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to
remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any
installed packages other than the four listed above.
apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
  Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
  Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
  Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is
unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the
process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and
orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings
panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab.
Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence
Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks running, as children
of the systemd --user task; I am far from expert here. They do not
seem to use significant resources, however.
Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps
-ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can
kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is
not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the
first place,
I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Felix Miata wrote:
...or disabling the motherboard's
sound device in BIOS setup, whichever is applicable, before beginning
installation, as a possible thwart to the Gnome must have everything paradigm, if
blocking Gnome entirely is unacceptable.
That might be useful advice, but the sound card is not readily
removable, its built into this asus motherboard
But that still doesn't answer the question, How much longer till
trixie is official? I even put a ? mark on it.
On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent
On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had >>>>>>> a TV
transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a
mental checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / >>>>>>> reduced
power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder
cables, hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a >>>>>>> baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you >>>>>>> out of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial >>>>>>> state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on.
Wireless keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if
it did, I'd
have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using
tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that
includes firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can.
Then add your
Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there,
since we don't
run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all.
Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you >>>>>>> want. Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever
caused by
individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
  Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Suggests: orca
  Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those
packages and
see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get
out for you
but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where >>>>>>> you got
to will be very helpful.
Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I
assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its
dependency's with it. Thanks Tom.
Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate
action from all others?
I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this
discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch
installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though,
"apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency.
And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt
install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would
not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome
installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and
no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves
this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers on the keyboard.
Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that,
hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were
months healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or
computer, but I did get the message. I've had many strikes on that
pole since I built a garage on the end of the house, which caused me
to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC.
Zero problems since then (2008)
Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in
suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove
brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know
whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if
maybe barely possible.
Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt
purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by
default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had to install
it. You probably should if it is missing.
apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the
latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I
think).
If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Regards,
Tom Dial
Hi Gene,How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I >>>>>>> got to
step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and >>>>>>> we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not
indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk >>>>>>> that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in >>>>>> the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the >>>>>> install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o
asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from
wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me
because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the
computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do
work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5
yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every
keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the
neighbors. The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that >>>>>> crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but >>>>>> hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the
installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through
all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because
it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the
suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it.
Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every
dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either
orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get
when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'. >>>>>>
I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca
provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time,
although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
  Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11
If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to
remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any
installed packages other than the four listed above.
apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
  Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
  Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
  Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is
unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the
process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and
orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a
settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the
"Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button
will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks
running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from
expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however. >>>>>
Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps
-ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you
can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if
it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca
in the first place,
I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Thank you Tom
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two
On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent
On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had >>>>>>> a TV
transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a
mental checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / >>>>>>> reduced
power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder
cables, hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a >>>>>>> baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you >>>>>>> out of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial >>>>>>> state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on.
Wireless keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if
it did, I'd
have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using
tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that
includes firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can.
Then add your
Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there,
since we don't
run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all.
Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you >>>>>>> want. Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever
caused by
individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
  Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Suggests: orca
  Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those
packages and
see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get
out for you
but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where >>>>>>> you got
to will be very helpful.
Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I
assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its
dependency's with it. Thanks Tom.
Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate
action from all others?
I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this
discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch
installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though,
"apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency.
And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt
install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would
not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome
installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and
no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves
this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers on the keyboard.
Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that,
hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were
months healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or
computer, but I did get the message. I've had many strikes on that
pole since I built a garage on the end of the house, which caused me
to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC.
Zero problems since then (2008)
Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in
suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove
brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know
whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if
maybe barely possible.
Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt
purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by
default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had to install
it. You probably should if it is missing.
apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the
latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I
think).
If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Regards,
Tom Dial
Hi Gene,How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I >>>>>>> got to
step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and >>>>>>> we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not
indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk >>>>>>> that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in >>>>>> the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the >>>>>> install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o
asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from
wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me
because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the
computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do
work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5
yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every
keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the
neighbors. The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that >>>>>> crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but >>>>>> hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the
installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through
all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because
it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the
suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it.
Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every
dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either
orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get
when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'. >>>>>>
I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca
provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time,
although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
  Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11
If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to
remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any
installed packages other than the four listed above.
apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
  Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
  Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
  Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is
unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the
process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and
orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a
settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the
"Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button
will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks
running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from
expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however. >>>>>
Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps
-ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you
can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if
it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca
in the first place,
I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Thank you Tom
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
On Fri, Jun 07, 2024 at 01:14:16AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two orca's. >> one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't use.
Oh! That sounds super relevant.
If you're not using the second one, where did it come from? If it's interfering with your desktop environment, but you're not using it,
maybe you can get rid of it.
That would be one solution path to explore. The other... you're already exploring, so see below.
Typing
orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes >> back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was being executed.
"type orca" will tell you what the shell has chosen.
"type -a orca" will tell you all the places the shell sees it, in order.
So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies will >> put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove.
Install "equivs". Read its documentation. Read it a second time,
because it's probably too subtle to get all at once.
Pick one of the example templates (mail-transport-agent is the smallest,
so I'd use that one), make a copy of it, and modify the copy. Get rid of
the Provides and Conflicts, and replace them with a Depends: line that's identical to the one from "gnome", except get rid of orca. Change the Package name and the Description to be something meaningful to you.
I'd suggest the name gene-gnome because it's a fun pun.
Build your new .deb which depends on all the parts of GNOME except for
orca. Install it with dpkg -i.
Since the gnome Depends: line has versioned dependencies, your custom replacement probably won't survive a dist-upgrade, so be prepared to
undo and redo this hack when you upgrade to a new version of Debian.
.
In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't use.
Typing
orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was being executed.
So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove.
On 2024-06-07 06:14, gene heskett wrote:Where did you get that beta trixie installer? bookworm does not allow
So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependenciesI delayed logging in after starting the PC some time ago when a voice
will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time
this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
boomed out the keys I was typing.
"What the.."
Reading this thread I purged orca and brltty on trixie and everything
still seems to be working.
mick
.
On 2024-06-07 12:32, gene heskett wrote:Got it, thanks mick.
Where did you get that beta trixie installer? bookworm does not allow
that removal of orca without also removing gnome. brltty yes, but not
orca.
I don't think I've got any gnome stuff.
here probably. https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/amd64/iso-dvd/
mick
.
In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two
orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't
use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was
being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous: gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
1560
So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies
will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time
this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
On 6/6/24 22:14, gene heskett wrote:
In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two
orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't
use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several
minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was
being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
1560
So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies
will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time
this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
Here are my installation notes from when I migrated my daily driver from Debian 9 to Debian 11. It has orca, and orca has never bothered me:
January 9, 2022
1. Wipe Intel SSD 520 Series 60 GB drive in Intel DQ67SW. Insert
   debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst USB flash drive into USB 3.0 port
   adjacent Gigabit port. Boot:
    Debian GNU/Linux installer menu (BIOS mode)
                   install
    Language           C
    Continent or region       North America
    Country, territory or area   United States
    Keymap to use           American English
    Hostname           laalaa
    Domain name           tracy.holgerdanske.com
    Root password           ********
    Re-enter password       ********
    Full name for new user       debian
    Username for your account   debian
    Choose a password       ********
    Re-enter password       ********
    Select your time zone       Pacific
    Partitioning method       Manual
     Select a partition...   SCSI1 (0,0,0) (sda) - 60.0 GB ATA INTEL
SSDSC2CW06
       Create partition table   Yes
     Select a partition...       pri/log 60.0 GB FREE SPACE
       Create a new partition
         New partition size   1 GB
         Type           Primary
         Location           Beginning
         Partition settings
       Use as           Ext4 journaling file system
       Mount point       /boot
       Mount options       defaults
       Label           laalaa_boot
       Reserved blocks       5%
       Typical usage       standard
       Bootable flag       on
       Done setting up the partition
     Select a partition...       pri/log 59.0 GB FREE SPACE
       Create a new partition
         New partition size   1 GB
         Type           Primary
         Location           Beginning
         Partition settings
       Use as           physical volume for encryption
       Encryption method   Device-mapper (dm-crypt)
       Encryption       aes
       Key size       256
       IV algorithm       xts-plain64
       Encryption key       Random key
       Erase data       no
       Bootable flag       off
       Done setting up the partition
     Select a partition...       pri/log 58.0 GB FREE SPACE
       Create a new partition
         New partition size   13 GB
         Type           Primary
         Location           Beginning
         Partition settings
       Use as           physical volume for encryption
       Encryption method   Device-mapper (dm-crypt)
       Encryption       aes
       Key size       256
       IV algorithm       xts-plain64
       Encryption key       Passphrase
       Erase data       no
       Bootable flag       off
       Done setting up the partition
     Configure encrypted volumes
       Write the changes to disk   Yes
       Encryption configuration   Create encrypted volumes
       Devices to encrypt
         [*] /dev/sda2 (1000MB; crypto)
         [*] /dev/sda3 (13000MB; crypt)
       Continue
       Encryption configuration   Finish
       Encryption passphrase   ********
       Re-enter passphrase       ********
     Select a partition...       #1 13.0 GB f ext4
       Partition settings
         Use as           Ext4 journaling file system
         Mount point       /
         Mount options       defaults
         Label           laalaa_root
         Reserved blocks       5%
         Typical usage       standard
         Done setting up the partition
     Finish partitioning and write changes to disk
       Write the changes to disks   Yes
    Debian archive mirror country   United States
    Debian archive mirror       deb.debian.org
    HTTP proxy information       <blank>
    Package usage survey       No
    Choose software           Debian desktop environment
                       Xfce
                   SSH server
                   standard system utiilties
    Device for boot loader installation
                   /dev/sdb (ata-INTEL_SSDSC2CW060A3_********)
    Installation complete       Continue
   Push and hold power button at POST; release when computer turns
   off. Remove USB flash drive.
2. Take image:
<snip>
I may have installed only once in the past 2 years, ~4 months, but I
have blown up that computer many times. The key is defense in depth --
OS configuration files and data working directories in a networked
version control system (CVS) with the repository on another computer, OS
disk images, OS and data backups, IMAP backups of incoming and outgoing messages, etc..
Did you ever build that dedicated backup server? I recall you buying a bunch of 2 TB 2.5" SATA SSD's for crazy cheap that turned out to be counterfeit, but do not recall any news since then.
David
.
On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two
On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and
On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they >>>>>>>>> had a TV
transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a
mental checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down >>>>>>>>> / reduced
power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder >>>>>>>>> cables, hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to >>>>>>>>> a baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get >>>>>>>>> you out of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known
initial state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on.
Wireless keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if >>>>>>>>> it did, I'd
have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using >>>>>>>>> tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that
includes firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. >>>>>>>>> Then add your
Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, >>>>>>>>> since we don't
run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. >>>>>>>>> Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system >>>>>>>>> you want. Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever
caused by
individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go. >>>>>>>>>
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
  Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Suggests: orca
  Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those >>>>>>>>> packages and
see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get >>>>>>>>> out for you
but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember
where you got
to will be very helpful.
Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I
assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its
dependency's with it. Thanks Tom.
Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate
action from all others?
I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this
discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch
installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them,
though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome
dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of
gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package
only and would not install it along with gnome; on the stretch
system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired
keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the
pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers
on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot
harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles
and the burns were months healing. And in this case did not damage
the keyboard or computer, but I did get the message. I've had many
strikes on that pole since I built a garage on the end of the house,
which caused me to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding
specs up to NEC. Zero problems since then (2008)
Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in
suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove
brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know
whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if
maybe barely possible.
Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt
purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by
default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line
package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had
to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends
<package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the
latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I
think).
If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Regards,
Tom Dial
Hi Gene,How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are >>>>>>>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons >>>>>>>> in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say >>>>>>>>> "I got to
step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" >>>>>>>>> and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not >>>>>>>>> indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual >>>>>>>>> folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
because the install insists on installing and configuring orca >>>>>>>> and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to >>>>>>>> stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every
keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca >>>>>>>> disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in
the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is
using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce >>>>>>>> and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough >>>>>>>> to wake the neighbors. The first 23 installs never asked me if >>>>>>>> I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it
would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I >>>>>>>> have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want >>>>>>>> to have to go through all that again. Until the installer ASKS >>>>>>>> me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one
nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, >>>>>>>> is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on
removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with >>>>>>>> synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy >>>>>>>> the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer >>>>>>>> is "won't fix, not broken'.
I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca
provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time,
although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe. >>>>>>>
On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
  Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11
If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to
remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any
installed packages other than the four listed above.
apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
  Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
  Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
  Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is
unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find
the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that. >>>>>>>
I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and >>>>>>> orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a
settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the
"Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply"
button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its
subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am
far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant
resources, however.
Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with
"ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or >>>>>>> you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef
output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to
not start orca in the first place,
I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Thank you Tom
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't
use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several
minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was
being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
1560
The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca
program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian installs
with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in a command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working
mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See the
orca man page for setup details.
orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies
will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time
this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for
different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The
other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command, presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or
maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't use AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution packages very sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.
You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D
printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without
interfering with anything.
But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message on
this thread.
The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note uppercase with
whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall gnome. As you
said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But once it is done, you
can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less obtrusive, or even silent,
in the way I described earlier.
If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not even matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy
Regards,
Tom Dial
I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep
uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers,
most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version, and probably 20x faster.
On 6/7/24 22:41, gene heskett wrote:
I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep
uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers,
most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the
OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version,
and probably 20x faster.
I have found that installing software on Debian by any means other than official Debian packages is a recipe for disaster.
I sometimes write Perl code that runs as root. I use VirtualBox and do
my development and testing on virtual machines. Oracle provides Debian packages and integrates with sources.list(5) and apt-get(8). See "Debian-based Linux distributions":
https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Linux_Downloads
If you installed VirtualBox on your Debian primary workstation, you
could create one Debian VM for each of your engineering/ manufacturing apps. This would give each app a clean Debian VM for installation,
prevent apps from fighting each other, and prevent apps from modifying
your base Debian installation.
David
.
On 6/8/24 03:22, David Christensen wrote:
If you installed VirtualBox on your Debian primary workstation, youIt is quite rare that a snap, appimage, or venv needs anything from the system. Memory or storage is generally done at whatever venv is started
could create one Debian VM for each of your engineering/ manufacturing
apps. This would give each app a clean Debian VM for installation,
prevent apps from fighting each other, and prevent apps from modifying
your base Debian installation.
as the user. That venv equ is generally what they all claim to do. I see
your reticence to make use of them as a restriction.
[...] That venv equ is generally what they all claim to do. I see your reticence to make use of them as a restriction.
On 6/8/24 12:13, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/8/24 03:22, David Christensen wrote:
If you installed VirtualBox on your Debian primary workstation, youIt is quite rare that a snap, appimage, or venv needs anything from
could create one Debian VM for each of your engineering/
manufacturing apps. This would give each app a clean Debian VM for
installation, prevent apps from fighting each other, and prevent apps
from modifying your base Debian installation.
the system. Memory or storage is generally done at whatever venv is
started as the user. That venv equ is generally what they all claim to
do. I see your reticence to make use of them as a restriction.
My suggestion is a variation of the "divide and conquer" troubleshooting strategy.
I am not familiar with snap, appimage, or venv. Regardless of the
software distribution mechanism, I expect that each app is developed and tested against a list of supported OS's and releases using VM's. If you provide each app with its own VM containing a supported OS and release,
the app should install and work correctly. And, your base Debian installation should remain stable.
David
.
On 6/7/24 23:41, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/7/24 20:38, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two
On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and
On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they >>>>>>>>>>> had a TV
transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a >>>>>>>>>>> mental checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power >>>>>>>>>>> down / reduced
power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder >>>>>>>>>>> cables, hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back >>>>>>>>>>> to a baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get >>>>>>>>>>> you out of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known >>>>>>>>>>> initial state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. >>>>>>>>>>> Wireless keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - >>>>>>>>>>> if it did, I'd
have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using >>>>>>>>>>> tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that >>>>>>>>>>> includes firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you >>>>>>>>>>> can. Then add your
Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, >>>>>>>>>>> since we don't
run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. >>>>>>>>>>> Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system >>>>>>>>>>> you want. Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change. >>>>>>>>>>>
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever >>>>>>>>>>> caused by
individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go. >>>>>>>>>>>
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
  Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Suggests: orca
  Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those >>>>>>>>>>> packages and
see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all >>>>>>>>>>> get out for you
but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember >>>>>>>>>>> where you got
to will be very helpful.
Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I >>>>>>>> assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its >>>>>>>> dependency's with it. Thanks Tom.
Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate
action from all others?
I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this
discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch
installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them,
though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome
dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation
of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested
package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the
stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to
brltty.
rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired
keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the
pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my
fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been
tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month
round of shingles and the burns were months healing. And in this
case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I did get the
message. I've had many strikes on that pole since I built a garage >>>>>> on the end of the house, which caused me to install a 200 amp
service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. Zero problems
since then (2008)
Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in
suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to
remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives
to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far
fetched if maybe barely possible.
Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and
"apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by
default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line
package management program since buster or earlier. I have never
had to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends
<package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>;
the latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package
name, I think).
If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Regards,
Tom Dial
Hi Gene,How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are >>>>>>>>>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and >>>>>>>>>>> say "I got to
step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" >>>>>>>>>>> and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not >>>>>>>>>>> indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual >>>>>>>>>>> folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for >>>>>>>>>> me because the install insists on installing and configuring >>>>>>>>>> orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, >>>>>>>>>> trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its
yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I >>>>>>>>>> finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The >>>>>>>>>> delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not >>>>>>>>>> useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me >>>>>>>>>> loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse >>>>>>>>>> motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors. The first 23 >>>>>>>>>> installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you
nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever >>>>>>>>>> waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer >>>>>>>>>> AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all >>>>>>>>>> that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because >>>>>>>>>> it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the >>>>>>>>>> suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. >>>>>>>>>> Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and
every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing >>>>>>>>>> either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet >>>>>>>>>> all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't >>>>>>>>>> fix, not broken'.
I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca >>>>>>>>> provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, >>>>>>>>> although I have not encountered any difficulties like you
describe.
On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
  Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11
If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to >>>>>>>>> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any >>>>>>>>> installed packages other than the four listed above.
apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
  Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
  Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
  Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is >>>>>>>>> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find >>>>>>>>> the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that. >>>>>>>>>
I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome >>>>>>>>> and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a >>>>>>>>> settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the >>>>>>>>> "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply"
button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its
subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am >>>>>>>>> far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant
resources, however.
Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with >>>>>>>>> "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. >>>>>>>>> Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef >>>>>>>>> output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to >>>>>>>>> not start orca in the first place,
I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying. >>>>>>>>>
Regards,
Tom Dial
Thank you Tom
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I
don't use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for
several minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC
which was being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite
voluminous:
gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
1560
The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca
program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian
installs with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in
a command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working
mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See
the orca man page for setup details.
orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes
dependencies will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove.
So one more time this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a
rear.
It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for
different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The
other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command,
presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or
maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't
use AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution
packages very sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.
I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep
uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers,
most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the
OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version,
and probably 20x faster.
You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D
printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without
interfering with anything.
It was an AppImage, rm-able.ff>
But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or
apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was
unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message
on this thread.
The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note
uppercase with whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall
gnome. As you said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But
once it is done, you can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less
obtrusive, or even silent, in the way I described earlier.
If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not
even matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy
That I did not find easy. Disabling it also removes the ability to
reboot as the boot hangs forever waiting for orca to start, quite
early in the boot. That little detail is responsible for the first 23
re-installs.
I don't oppose appimage use, except on a sort of vague esthetic basis or misplaced/unnecessary concern with resource use "efficiency." They
certainly have valid use cases.
At this point, I have no idea about the state of your system, so recommend:
Restore the system to the point where it has the software installed that
you want, plus gnome, plus the orca that came with gnome. Make sure
brltty is gone, since you don't want it.
   apt purge brltty --yes
Reboot.
(Probably unnecessary, but it won't hurt and will ensure the system is
in a fairly normal state).
Log on to your account and disable orca speech:
   orca -s &
In 5 - 10 seconds, the "Screen Reader Preferences" panel should be
displayed, with 8 tabs under the title. Left-click the "Speech" tab and
make sure the "Enable speech" box is unchecked. Then left-click the
"Apply" button at the bottom of the panel, and after that the "OK"
button. The preferences panel will close in a few seconds.
Orca should no longer read screens. And the change should be persistent across logins and reboots: the settings are saved in your ~/.local/share/orca/ for later.
You also could take care of orca for the current session by
   killall orca
but it would not be persistent across logins.
Also see
   https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_speech_settings.html.en
On your system:
   man orca
   /usr/share/doc/orca/README
I won't say it's the best documentation I have seen, but it is
documentation, and better than some.
Regards,
Tom
.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Thanks Tom.
No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
On 6/8/24 19:11, Tom Dial wrote:
On your system:
man orca
/usr/share/doc/orca/README
I won't say it's the best documentation I have seen, but it is documentation, and better than some.
Regards,
Tom
.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
orca is gone, as is gnome. Apt and synaptic refuse to re-install gnome w/o dragging in orca too. Good night, whats left of it, Tom.
On Sun, Jun 09, 2024 at 02:14:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:, gnome-music (>= 3.36), shotwell | gnome-photos (>= 3.36), gnome-weather (>= 3.36), orca (>= 3.38), rygel-playbin (>= 0.36), rygel-tracker (>= 0.36), simple-scan (>= 3.36), avahi-daemon, evolution (>= 3.36), gnome-sound-recorder, gnome-tweaks (>= 3.30),
orca is gone, as is gnome. Apt and synaptic refuse to re-install gnome w/o >> dragging in orca too. Good night, whats left of it, Tom.
The "gnome" metapackage depends on "orca". It's a direct dependency.
hobbit:~$ apt-cache show gnome | grep Depends:
Depends: gnome-core (= 1:43+1), desktop-base, libproxy1-plugin-networkmanager, network-manager-gnome (>= 1.8), cheese (>= 3.38), file-roller (>= 3.38), gnome-calendar (>= 3.38), gnome-clocks (>= 3.38), gnome-color-manager (>= 3.36), gnome-maps (>= 3.38)
hobbit:~$ apt-cache show gnome | grep Depends: | grep -oP 'orca.*?,'
orca (>= 3.38),
I've spelled out for you step by step how to build your own replacement
for "gnome" which lacks this dependency. You've ignored that.
Others have suggested steps for disabling/reconfiguring orca without
removing it. You haven't tried that path either.
You just keep repeating the same steps over and over and expecting a different result.Thanks Greg.
.
On 6/8/24 19:11, Tom Dial wrote:installation of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
On 6/7/24 23:41, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/7/24 20:38, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd
have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your
Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't
run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change. >>>>>>>>>>>>
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go. >>>>>>>>>>>>
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
  Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Suggests: orca
  Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and
see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you
but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
to will be very helpful.
Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it. Thanks Tom.
Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate action from all others?
I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated
of my fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were months healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I didWhile I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way
bit far fetched if maybe barely possible.
Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a
missing.
Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had to install it. You probably should if it is
orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain
apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I think).
If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Regards,
Tom Dial
How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every
Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.Hi Gene,
I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
  Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1) >>>>>>>>>>   Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
  Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1) >>>>>>>>>>   Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11
If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed packages other than the four listed above.
apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
  Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
  Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
  Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "
how to not start orca in the first place,
Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it
a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes back to a prompt with
I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying. >>>>>>>>>>
Regards,
Tom Dial
Thank you Tom
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
part of an AppImage. Or maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't use AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution packages very sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
1560
The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian installs with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in a command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See the orca man page for setup details.
orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command, presumably was installed by you, and may be
than the repo version, and probably 20x faster.
I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers, most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer
Debian one - to be less obtrusive, or even silent, in the way I described earlier.
You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without interfering with anything.
It was an AppImage, rm-able.ff>
But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message on this thread.
The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note uppercase with whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall gnome. As you said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But once it is done, you can tune orca - the
and after that the "OK" button. The preferences panel will close in a few seconds.
If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not even matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy
That I did not find easy. Disabling it also removes the ability to reboot as the boot hangs forever waiting for orca to start, quite early in the boot. That little detail is responsible for the first 23 re-installs.
I don't oppose appimage use, except on a sort of vague esthetic basis or misplaced/unnecessary concern with resource use "efficiency." They certainly have valid use cases.
At this point, I have no idea about the state of your system, so recommend: >>
Restore the system to the point where it has the software installed that you want, plus gnome, plus the orca that came with gnome. Make sure brltty is gone, since you don't want it.
    apt purge brltty --yes
Reboot.
(Probably unnecessary, but it won't hurt and will ensure the system is in a fairly normal state).
Log on to your account and disable orca speech:
    orca -s &
In 5 - 10 seconds, the "Screen Reader Preferences" panel should be displayed, with 8 tabs under the title. Left-click the "Speech" tab and make sure the "Enable speech" box is unchecked. Then left-click the "Apply" button at the bottom of the panel,
Orca should no longer read screens. And the change should be persistent across logins and reboots: the settings are saved in your ~/.local/share/orca/ for later.
orca is gone, as is gnome. Apt and synaptic refuse to re-install gnome w/o dragging in orca too. Good night, whats left of it, Tom.
You also could take care of orca for the current session by
    killall orca
but it would not be persistent across logins.
Also see
    https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_speech_settings.html.en
On your system:
    man orca
    /usr/share/doc/orca/README
I won't say it's the best documentation I have seen, but it is documentation, and better than some.
Regards,
Tom
.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Thanks Tom.
No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
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