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Re: nouveau on old NV GPUs (was: NVidia 340 video driver in Bookworm?)

From Felix Miata@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 3 08:20:01 2024

Van Snyder composed on 2024-06-07 13:29 (UTC-0700):

Has anybody been able to install the NVidia 340.108 video driver in
Debian 12?

The messages I found said "Support for it ended in 2019. Use nouveau."

It should have said more. Some of what it should have included appears following.

# aptitude search veau
i A libdrm-nouveau2 - Userspace interface to nouveau-specific kernel DRM service
p xserver-xorg-video-nouveau - X.Org X server -- Nouveau display driver
# dpkg-query -W | grep veau
libdrm-nouveau2:amd64 2.4.114-1+b1
# lsmod | sort | grep veau
button 24576 1 nouveau
drm 614400 7 drm_kms_helper,drm_display_helper,drm_ttm_helper,ttm,nouveau
drm_display_helper 184320 1 nouveau
drm_kms_helper 212992 2 drm_display_helper,nouveau
drm_ttm_helper 16384 1 nouveau
i2c_algo_bit 16384 1 nouveau
mxm_wmi 16384 1 nouveau
nouveau 2433024 2
ttm 94208 2 drm_ttm_helper,nouveau
video 65536 1 nouveau
wmi 36864 3 video,mxm_wmi,nouveau
#
A new nouveau module, 2433024 here, comes with every individual kernel, not any separate package. It is the base level nouveau for KMS to function using drm services. What you see that is not installed is the optional nouveau display driver that is "experimental", "reverse-engineered", and carries the baggage
of unreliability. That baggage is optional, as above shows clearly I don't have it installed....

But I seem to have trouble with nouveau. When I was running Debian 10
on a Dell Vostro 1700 laptop with NVidia GeForce 8400M graphics, I had

According to Wikipedia, 8400M is a code named G86 Tesla device on TSMC 80nm process. I have nearly the same, a Tesla G84 80nm, though not laptop variety. Output shown above and below is from it. Release date of mine was April 2007, one month before your 8400M.

been able to install the driver, and had no trouble. I made the mistake
of installing Debian 12.5 on the same partition, so I don't have the
Debian 10 install anymore. It freezes so completely that the keyboard
doesn't work, so I can't switch to a TTY screen. Even if I "ssh" to it
from my desktop, I can't kill and restart the graphics. I have a script
to restart KDE, but it does nothing. Even "init 3" doesn't do the
trick. I have to hold down the power key to reboot. I don't think it's
a hardware problem that amazingly manifested simultaneously with a new install.

# inxi -CMSz --vs --zl --hostname
inxi 3.3.35-01 (2024-06-18)
System:
Host: big41 Kernel: 6.1.0-22-amd64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64
Desktop: TDE (Trinity) v: R14.1.2 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm) Machine:
Type: Desktop Mobo: BIOSTAR model: T41 HD serial: N/A
BIOS: American Megatrends v: 080015 date: 09/22/2009
CPU:
Info: dual core model: Intel Core2 Duo E7600 bits: 64 type: MCP cache:
L2: 3 MiB
Speed (MHz): avg: 1603 min/max: 1603/3066 cores: 1: 1603 2: 1603
# inxi -Gaz
Graphics:
Device-1: NVIDIA G84 [GeForce 8600 GT] vendor: XFX Pine driver: nouveau
v: kernel non-free: series: 340.xx status: legacy (EOL~2019-12-xx) last:
release: 340.108 kernel: 5.4 xorg: 1.20 arch: Tesla process: 40-80nm
built: 2006-2013 pcie: gen: 1 speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 16 ports:
active: DVI-I-1,DVI-I-2 empty: none bus-ID: 01:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:0402
class-ID: 0300 temp: 70.0 C
Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.21.1.7 compositor: Twin v: 3.0 driver: X:
loaded: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa dri: nouveau gpu: nouveau
display-ID: :0 screens: 1
Screen-1: 0 s-res: 3600x1200 s-dpi: 120 s-size: 762x254mm (30.00x10.00")
s-diag: 803mm (31.62")
Monitor-1: DVI-I-1 pos: primary,left model: NEC EA243WM serial: <filter>
built: 2011 res: 1920x1200 hz: 60 dpi: 94 gamma: 1.2
size: 519x324mm (20.43x12.76") diag: 612mm (24.1") ratio: 16:10 modes:
max: 1920x1200 min: 640x480
Monitor-2: DVI-I-2 pos: right model: Dell P2213 serial: <filter>
built: 2012 res: 1680x1050 hz: 60 dpi: 90 gamma: 1.2
size: 473x296mm (18.62x11.65") diag: 558mm (22") ratio: 16:10 modes:
max: 1680x1050 min: 720x400
API: EGL v: 1.5 hw: drv: nvidia nouveau platforms: device: 0 egl: 1.4
drv: nouveau device: 1 drv: swrast gbm: egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau surfaceless:
egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau x11: egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau inactive: wayland
API: OpenGL v: 3.3 vendor: nouveau mesa v: 22.3.6 glx-v: 1.4 es-v: 3.0
direct-render: yes renderer: NV84 device-ID: 10de:0402 memory: 474.6 MiB
unified: no
#
I count 9 instances of string "nouveau" in that output. Some of them
represent duplication, but my point is "nouveau" does not have one
single meaning. In my case, the unreliable "experimental", "reverse-engineered" nouveau is excluded from use. As result, my old NVidia cards, 3 Tesla and
2 Fermi, overall run X just as well as do my Intel and AMD/ATI GPUs do for their
generations. When I see complaints about "nouveau", I usually wonder what the real problem is, and have often done as I'm doing here, trying to clarify:

1: nouveau does not have a monolithic meaning
2: based on my experience, "nouveau" need not be any impediment to competent X functionality

xserver-xorg-video-nouveau is an optional fly in the X ointment. Don't install it, purge it if necessary, and your old NVidia GPU just might do OK.

PS: Once an attempt to install an NVidia proprietary driver is made, whether actually supported or not, subsequent success using nouveau far more often
than not fails prior to perfect purging of the NVidia software by following
the installation instructions provided with it, and often fails anyhow. IOW, once NVidia driver installation is attempted, a clean Debian installation, absent xserver-xorg-video-nouveau, is the typical path to nouveau success.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

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From Andrew M.A. Cater@21:1/5 to Felix Miata on Wed Jul 3 10:10:01 2024

On Wed, Jul 03, 2024 at 02:16:20AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

Van Snyder composed on 2024-06-07 13:29 (UTC-0700):

The messages I found said "Support for it ended in 2019. Use nouveau."

This is support from Nvidia, with official Nvidia proprietary drivers

been able to install the driver, and had no trouble. I made the mistake
of installing Debian 12.5 on the same partition, so I don't have the
Debian 10 install anymore. It freezes so completely that the keyboard doesn't work, so I can't switch to a TTY screen. Even if I "ssh" to it
from my desktop, I can't kill and restart the graphics. I have a script
to restart KDE, but it does nothing. Even "init 3" doesn't do the
trick. I have to hold down the power key to reboot. I don't think it's
a hardware problem that amazingly manifested simultaneously with a new install.

It's a software problem: Nvidia drivers conflict with nouveau in interesting ways and, as Felix says, are very hard to remove once installed. This is particularly a problem on high end laptops with more than one GPU - where
you need Optimus?? drivers.

PS: Once an attempt to install an NVidia proprietary driver is made, whether actually supported or not, subsequent success using nouveau far more often than not fails prior to perfect purging of the NVidia software by following the installation instructions provided with it, and often fails anyhow. IOW, once NVidia driver installation is attempted, a clean Debian installation, absent xserver-xorg-video-nouveau, is the typical path to nouveau success.
--

I'd almost go further. A clean Debian install allowing the installation
to pick files should "just work". You might have lost some video
accelleration compared to the proprietary drivers but it should be fine.

If you need to install for something with dual GPUs, do a text only install without installing any graphical environment _then_ and only then add
the appropriate magic to get dual GPUs to work.

You are using TDE. Do a text only install, uncheck all graphical desktops
- you might need to install network manager if you are using wifi to
install with. Reboot. Use nmtui or nmcli to connect to wireless.

At that point, install TDE - which is not currently a desktop supported
in the main Debian installer.

Resolve never to buy Nvidia again :)

All the very best, as ever

Andy

Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

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From Andrew M.A. Cater@21:1/5 to Van Snyder on Thu Jul 4 00:00:01 2024

On Wed, Jul 03, 2024 at 11:29:43AM -0700, Van Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 2024-07-03 at 08:03 +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

Resolve never to buy Nvidia again :)

1) On my brother's antique Dell Vostro 1700 laptop, the NVidia G68M
(GeForce 8400M GS) is soldered to the motherboard.

As above: if all else fails, install in text mode and then install a
desktop environment. Don't try to install the Nvidia proprietary drivers.

2)I'm running NVidia in two desktops because my erstwhile SA gave them
to me when computers were decommissioned. At the time they were a big
step up. Now NVidia doesn't support them in Debian.�What do you
recommend for them? Multiple monitors. No gaming but an occasional
video. And some features of the KDE Kinfocenter, especially the System Monitor, either don't work at all, or just make a mess, without a
graphic accelerator.�

Same here. 2 x Nvidia machines here - neither using Nvidia proprietary
drivers both using nouveau - difference being that these are running
GNOME. I got given one Nvidia card - one's a 1050, one's a 1060 from
memory.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy
(amacater@debian.org)

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From Hans@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 4 09:10:02 2024

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

Tried again, somehow there was no subject sent with my last mail.

So, well, I believe I got a solution. However, not everyone might be happy with it, but maybe it
will work.

I am running the kernel 6.7.12+bpo-amd64 on my system. This is a backport kernel, but
it might also work with other kernels, too.

You also need to install the build environment, the easiest way is to use module-assistant.

If you got this set and installed linux-headers and so on, then do the following:

First, enter the line for sid into your /etc/apt/sources.list

deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/[1] sid main contrib non-free non-free-firmware

then do

apt update

apt install nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver firmware-misc-nonfree

This should install all necessary files and build the kernel module. Here it did work. However, I
had to use 390xx instead of 340xx, but both built here fine.

After it, reboot and try again if it is working.

Sometimes, nvidia-detect says, use 340xx-legacy, but I had some cases, where I in real had to
use 390xx. So, if 340xx is not working, try 390xx.

Note: Do NOT upgrade any other files! I suggest, after installing both packages as above,
remove the sid entry from sources.list and do again an
apt update. Thus you are not going into the danger, to install any more packages from sid.

If you need bumblebee or primusrun, because you have two GPUs (one in the CPU and one
extern), then use the packages from stable. This will work!

My notebook is a Lenovo T520 with Intel CPU (and internal Intel GPU) and also NVidia GPU as
external GPU (soldered on mainboard). I have to use optimus, to get my external GPU.

I got my information from this site.

https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers[2][1]

Hope, this helps.

Ah, and last but not least: Big thanks to the lads and guys, who made 340xx and 390xx
buildable again, great work! Big big thank you!!!

Here on my system, 390xx is working like a charm.

Good luck!

Hans

--------
[1] https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers

--------
[1] http://deb.debian.org/debian/
[2] https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>Tried again, somehow there was no subject sent with my last mail. 
 So, well, I believe I got a solution. However, not everyone might

  I am running the kernel 6.7.12+bpo-amd64 on my system. This is a backport kernel, but it might also work with other kernels, too.
 
You also need to install the build environment, the easiest way is to use module-assistant.
 
If you got this set and installed linux-headers and so on, then do the following:
 
First, enter the line for sid into your /etc/apt/sources.list
 
deb <a href="http://deb.debian.org/debian/">http://deb.debian.org/debian/</a> sid main contrib non-free non-free-
firmware
 
then do 
 
apt update
 
apt install nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver firmware-misc-nonfree
 
This should install all necessary files and build the kernel module. Here it did work. However, I 
had to use 390xx instead of 340xx, but both built here fine.
 
After it, reboot and try again if it is working.
 
Sometimes, nvidia-detect says, use 340xx-legacy, but I had some cases, where I in real had to 
use 390xx. So, if 340xx is not working, try 390xx.
 
Note: Do NOT upgrade any other files! I suggest, after installing both packages as above, 
remove the sid entry from sources.list and do again an 
apt update. Thus you are not going into the danger, to install any more packages from sid.
 
If you need bumblebee or primusrun, because you have two GPUs (one in the CPU and one 
extern), then use the packages from stable. This will work!
 
My notebook is a Lenovo T520 with Intel CPU (and internal Intel GPU) and also NVidia GPU as 
external GPU (soldered on mainboard). I have to use optimus, to get my external GPU.
 
I got my information from this site.
 
<a href="https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers">https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers</a>[1]
 
Hope, this helps. 
 
Ah, and last but not least: Big thanks to the lads and guys, who made 340xx and 390xx 
buildable again, great work! Big big thank you!!! 
 
Here on my system, 390xx is working like a charm.
 
Good luck!
 
Hans 
 
--------
[1] https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers
</body>
</html>

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From Hans@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 4 23:00:02 2024

This should not have been happened. Maybe you dis something in a wrong way?

I treid myself and it did not deinstall kde.

It is important, not to do any upgrade while the entry for sid is in sources.list.

Just install both packages (as told in the wiki), then after this install remove the sid entry at once and repeat an apt update again (this will delte all entries from the sid repo). This step is really important!

So you will only get both packages and its dependencies, nothing more.

It also will not deinstall kde, if doing so.

I suppose, you might have forgotten to do an apt update after installing the two packages, so it looks for me, and of course, then it will deinstall packages with missing dependencies.

Solution? Hmm, make sure, the sid entry is removed from sources.list. Then do an apt-get update and apt-get install --reinstall task-kde-desktop (or with your language i.e. task-german-kde-desktop).

This should reinstall all necessary packages again.

So note: If you do an apt-get update, aptitude update or apt update, you can retrieve to the package list of only packages of the repo, which are active in sources.list. Any of the above commands will set actualise the package lists.

Hope, this helps.

Best

Hans

at least KDE, and now it won't enter run level 5. I added
nouveau.modeset=0 to the "linux" line in grub.cfg, but it's still
running the nouveau driver, or at least that's what inxi -G reports:

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Re: nouveau on old NV GPUs (was: NVidia 340 video driver in Bookworm?)

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