On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 18:22:29 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 09:14:38AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
You asked after your /system/ clock. [ … ]
[ … ] /etc/timezone says what the system is on;
$ date says what your user is on.
No: /etc/timezone just says what time zone a _user_ will "get" unless they state otherwise. I.e. a user's default time zone.
The "system" being "on" a timezone is something that, under Unix,
doesn't make sense.
Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for processes [...]
Right you are.
On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 19:40:30 (+0200), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for processes [...]
Right you are.
So it comes down to nomenclature.
What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
no users are logged in?
$ date; timedatectl status
Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024
Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43
Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +0000)
System clock synchronized: yes
NTP service: active
RTC in local TZ: no
$
I notice that man timedatectl says:
set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
Set the system time zone to the specified value.
Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones.
If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this
will also update the RTC time. This call will alter
the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more
information.
What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
no users are logged in?
On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 23:54:03 -0500, David Wright wrote:
What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
no users are logged in?
Daemons will almost always use the system's default time zone (the one specified by /etc/localtime or /etc/timezone).
It's *theoretically* possible for some daemons to be configured to use
a different time zone, or to be hard-coded to use UTC. I've never seen
this, but it could be done.
Usually a daemon's time zone will only affect log messages that it
writes. It's uncommon for a daemon process to use a time zone for
anything other than timestamping messages. Of course, it depends on
the individual daemon.
On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 19:40:30 (+0200), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
[...]
Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for processes [...]
Right you are.
So it comes down to nomenclature.
What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
no users are logged in?
[...]
Most processes don't need one. When they display datetimes to a user
timezone becomes relevant.
$ date; timedatectl status
Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024
Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43
Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +0000)
System clock synchronized: yes
NTP service: active
RTC in local TZ: no
$
I notice that man timedatectl says:
set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
Set the system time zone to the specified value.
Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones.
If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this
will also update the RTC time. This call will alter
the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more
information.
I cringe a bit when I see that.
set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
Set the system time zone [...]
I cringe a bit when I see that.
See what, exactly? I can see three things, potentially.
On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 07:07:36 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 23:54:03 -0500, David Wright wrote:
What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
no users are logged in?
Daemons will almost always use the system's default time zone (the one specified by /etc/localtime or /etc/timezone).
It's *theoretically* possible for some daemons to be configured to use
a different time zone, or to be hard-coded to use UTC. I've never seen this, but it could be done.
In view of that, I think it's reasonable to drop the "default",
and go with "system time zone", ie the time zone that the system
clock it set to.
It's *theoretically* possible for some daemons to be configured to useIn view of that, I think it's reasonable to drop the "default",
a different time zone, or to be hard-coded to use UTC. I've never seen
this, but it could be done.
and go with "system time zone", ie the time zone that the system
clock it set to.
On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 7:09 AM Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> wrote:
I strongly disagree. The system clock is kept on "epoch time", which
is the number of seconds since midnight, January 1, 1970 UTC.
The system clock doesn't have a time zone of its own. It just gets converted to a time and date within any given time zone on demand.
++.
The sharp edge is how the RTC clock is set - UTC or localtime. Also
see <https://wiki.debian.org/DateTime>.
On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:52 AM <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
Please, keep those three at a safe distance
I'm not sure how you can disgorge them given they contribute to a
human readable time.
On 20/06/2024 11:52, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
"the system's
time zone" (of which some, me included, say "there's no such thing",
and others disagree 🙂
What term is appropriate in your opinion do describe the setting stored as the /etc/localtime symlink? localtime(5)
On 20/06/2024 11:52, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
"the system's
time zone" (of which some, me included, say "there's no such thing",
and others disagree 🙂
What term is appropriate in your opinion do describe the setting stored as the /etc/localtime symlink? localtime(5)
On 19/06/2024 11:37, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
Especially that bit with the "system timezone". Reminds me of some
remote past, where a system actually had a timezone (and changed its
clock twice a year). Back then we used to set all our networked
Windows boxen to a time zone without summer time change (ISTR it
was Monrovia/Liberia) to avoid having our Makefiles freaking out
twice a year.
I recall a checkbox do disable DST in Windows 95 or Windows 98, so perhaps searching for a timezone without DST was not necessary.
By the way,
<https://stackoverflow.com/tags/timezone/info> describes another style of identifiers in the Microsoft TZ DB. At certain point I have realized that "time zone" and "timezone" have a bit different meaning in the case of the IANA database <https://data.iana.org/time-zones/theory.html>
On Thu 20 Jun 2024 at 22:58:53 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 09:32:10 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
On 20/06/2024 11:52, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
Well, that's a mouthful. And what am I to call the time that a system
issues using that system default time zone? If I boot up two computers
and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your
opinion to describe the time displayed?
And what am I to call the time that a system
issues using that system default time zone?
If I boot up two computers
and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your
opinion to describe the time displayed?
I think, you are biased treating "system" as tightly built-in while most of others assume "system-wide".
On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 11:17:42PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
On Thu 20 Jun 2024 at 22:58:53 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 09:32:10 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
On 20/06/2024 11:52, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
[...]
Well, that's a mouthful. And what am I to call the time that a system issues using that system default time zone? If I boot up two computers
and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your
opinion to describe the time displayed?
The first step would be to realize that it's not the "computers" doing
the time display, but some processes running on them, and *those* are
the ones with the time zone (either default or explicitly set).
On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 23:17:42 -0500, David Wright wrote:
And what am I to call the time that a system
issues using that system default time zone?
If you mean the current time translated into that time zone, "local time"
is the traditional name for it.
If I boot up two computers
and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your
opinion to describe the time displayed?
They're out of sync. Or, at least one of them is.
Or did you mean "the same time, but in two different time zones"? If
you displayed these times by running "date", which respects both the
TZ environment variable and the /etc/localtime symlink, then you figure
out which of them is set to an undesired value. And then you fix it.
Or, if it's set how you *want* it, then you leave it alone.
Yes, I realise that. The times are being displayed by the gettys,
controlled by the /etc/issue format string. Jobs are being run
by cron, logs written by rsyslogd, and so on. And the term is … ?
On Fri 21 Jun 2024 at 06:45:58 (+0200), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
I recall a checkbox do disable DST in Windows 95 or Windows 98, so perhaps
searching for a timezone without DST was not necessary.
It's a log time ago, but we were a shop with a few pretty knowledgeable folks,
so I guess we first tried something like that.
There was a Registry Key:
HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation\RealTimeIsUniversal
that you could set to 1 for UTC. I don't remember when it was
introduced. And, of course, it might have been present but
undocumented for years.
On Fri 21 Jun 2024 at 07:15:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
If I boot up two computers
and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your opinion to describe the time displayed?
They're out of sync. Or, at least one of them is.
No, the kernel clocks are all in sync.
Or did you mean "the same time, but in two different time zones"? If
Yes, they're set as desired.
But now you've used 1.3k in your post,
and I still don't have my adjective.
Have you ever pondered why the 'international date line' is so convoluted?
As for odd time zones, we have a narrow one, somewhere between the
West Australian border (with Sth Aust) and the first notable town on
the road West - Norseman. It's 45 mins different from Sth Aust and the
a further 45 mins to main stream West Aust. There might be 10,000
people live within it.
On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 09:52:39 -0500, David Wright wrote:
On Fri 21 Jun 2024 at 07:15:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
If I boot up two computers
and they display different times, what term is appropriate in your opinion to describe the time displayed?
They're out of sync. Or, at least one of them is.
No, the kernel clocks are all in sync.
Then you were unclear. You said "they display different times". That
means one of them is wrong. The other one may be right, or they may
both be wrong.
Or did you mean "the same time, but in two different time zones"? If
The following are the same time, but in two different time zones:
12:00:00 -0500
13:00:00 -0400
The following are different times:
12:00:00 -0500
12:26:00 -0500
Yes, they're set as desired.
So you meant "the same time, but in different time zones". You should
have said that.
Pick any damned word you want, then. I'm done caring.
On 23/6/24 14:25, David Wright wrote:
On Sun 23 Jun 2024 at 12:52:55 (+1000), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
Have you ever pondered why the 'international date line' is so
convoluted?
Only on the odd occasion when an area decides to cross it, for
whatever reason. Like Samoa recently. And before that, the
creation of Pacific/Kiritimati (+14:00), which became a press
story at the start of the new millennium.
+14:00?? I've only ever heard of maxima of +/- 12:00. But see below
As for odd time zones, we have a narrow one, somewhere between the
West Australian border (with Sth Aust) and the first notable town on
the road West - Norseman. It's 45 mins different from Sth Aust and the
a further 45 mins to main stream West Aust. There might be 10,000
people live within it.
$ TZ=Pacific/Kiritamati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date
Sun Jun 23 04:24:54 Pacific 2024
Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 +0845 2024
$
So Eucla: Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 would be UTC: Sun Jun 23 04:24:54
How do we get that time in the middle of the Pacific? Surely it would be
Sat Jun22 18:24:54
And then I see a LOT of discussion on my suggestion about how MUA format
the send time when people reply. I'll get back to that later.
Cheers,
David.
creation of Pacific/Kiritimati (+14:00), which became a press
story at the start of the new millennium.
$ TZ=Pacific/Kiritamati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date
Sun Jun 23 04:24:54 Pacific 2024
Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 +0845 2024
$
A attribute the FCC forced on broadcasters as they like to see transmitter logs kept in 24 hour time. I got so used to it that when I retired in 2002, I'd been on 24 hour time for 40 years and didn't convert back to two 12 hour periods a day.
I think we are losing sight of the fact that all of timekeeping is an abstraction and over-generalization. Time zones were created to help regularize railroad schedules over wide areas. Timezones are an abstraction that permit us to _pretend_ that it is (physical) noon at the same clock
time over an extended area. When in fact physical high-noon, determined by the sun's position in the sky, cannot be at the exact same time just a few centimeters west or east of my eyeballs.
On 6/23/24 02:30, gene heskett wrote:
A attribute the FCC forced on broadcasters as they like to see
transmitter
logs kept in 24 hour time. I got so used to it that when I retired in
2002,
I'd been on 24 hour time for 40 years and didn't convert back to two
12 hour
periods a day.
I started using 24 hour time in junior high school with digital watches. I just thought it made more sense, especially for setting alarms. Several decades later I've not seen any reason to change, though it annoys my wife.
--
"Hear Me, for I am The Lord. I have seen your browser history, and am
wroth before it. Thus I shall strike down from the heavens a mighty blast, and lo, [thou] shalt no longer have access to the naughty pictures."
sudo sudo The Book of Support, Chap 404 -- Osiris32 on TFTS
.
Due, mainly, to the literacy of the people that moved, rather than any deliberate choice. That is, spelling was often a 'best guess'.
On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 23:25:43 -0500, David Wright wrote:
creation of Pacific/Kiritimati (+14:00), which became a press
story at the start of the new millennium.
$ TZ=Pacific/Kiritamati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date
Sun Jun 23 04:24:54 Pacific 2024
Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 +0845 2024
$
Typo there; you misspelled "Kiritimati" in the command.
hobbit:~$ TZ=Pacific/Kiritimati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date
Mon Jun 24 02:39:17 +14 2024
Sun Jun 23 21:24:17 +0845 2024
The fact that date(1) treats any misspelled or otherwise incorrect TZ variable as if it were UTC, but then goes on to write the mispelled
time zone name in its *output*, as if it were actually being recognized,
has tripped me up in the past. I really wish it would just throw an
error... but it doesn't.
A attribute the FCC forced on broadcasters as they like to see
transmitter logs kept in 24 hour time. I got so used to it that when I retired in 2002, I'd been on 24 hour time for 40 years and didn't
convert back to two 12 hour periods a day. The AM/PM convention. So
when I say its 22:30, its 10:30 PM to the neighbors next door.
On 2024-06-23, gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:fraught!!!
A attribute the FCC forced on broadcasters as they like to see
transmitter logs kept in 24 hour time. I got so used to it that when I
retired in 2002, I'd been on 24 hour time for 40 years and didn't
convert back to two 12 hour periods a day. The AM/PM convention. So
when I say its 22:30, its 10:30 PM to the neighbors next door.
Here in France I grew used to it very easily, and now the AM PM convention seems wrought with potential error. I'm sure we've crashed a space vehicle or
two do to the potential for conflating the two, like we did when we
mixed up miles for kilometers (or vice-versa).
When my mom came to visit one time in the nineties she requested I
change my alarm clock to AM PM time (it is now 15:25 here in the Gallic regions, where the weather has finally turned summery after forty days and forty nights of rain).
Celsius too is only a matter of habit. 30° is hot; you don't translate anymore. It is what it is. Like a pomme is an apple and une feuille is a leaf. You can become confused, though, when filling out US forms where
the birth date is written M/D/Y instead of D/M/Y, and sometimes you have
to be careful not commit the silly mistake that will entrain months
of delay in intricate *dédales* of the administration.
Le 24/06/2024 à 22:38, Curt a écrit :
On 2024-06-23, gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:AM/PM would not be so strange if between 11AM and 1 PM it was 12 AM ...
A attribute the FCC forced on broadcasters as they like to seeHere in France I grew used to it very easily, and now the AM PM
transmitter logs kept in 24 hour time. I got so used to it that when I
retired in 2002, I'd been on 24 hour time for 40 years and didn't
convert back to two 12 hour periods a day. The AM/PM convention. So
when I say its 22:30, its 10:30 PM to the neighbors next door.
convention
seems wrought with potential error. I'm sure we've crashed a space
vehicle or
two do to the potential for conflating the two, like we did when we
mixed up miles for kilometers (or vice-versa).
When my mom came to visit one time in the nineties she requested I
change my alarm clock to AM PM time (it is now 15:25 here in the Gallic
regions, where the weather has finally turned summery after forty days
and
forty nights of rain).
Celsius too is only a matter of habit. 30° is hot; you don't translate
anymore. It is what it is. Like a pomme is an apple and une feuille is a
leaf. You can become confused, though, when filling out US forms where
the birth date is written M/D/Y instead of D/M/Y, and sometimes you have
to be careful not commit the silly mistake that will entrain months
of delay in intricate *dédales* of the administration.
You can become confused, though, when filling out US forms where
the birth date is written M/D/Y instead of D/M/Y, and sometimes you have
to be careful not commit the silly mistake that will entrain months
of delay in intricate *dédales* of the administration.
On 24/6/24 21:38, Curt wrote:
<snip>
You can become confused, though, when filling out US forms whereThis is because the USA is a few hundred years behind the rest of the world, and, cannot comprehend ISO standards -
the birth date is written M/D/Y instead of D/M/Y, and sometimes you have
to be careful not commit the silly mistake that will entrain months
of delay in intricate *dédales* of the administration.
the ISO standard for date, is
2024-06-24
YYYY-MM-DD
which is the most efficient way of expressing a date, using the components
of year and month and day of the month
AM/PM would not be so strange if between 11AM and 1 PM it was 12 AM
...
The Wanderer writes:
(Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and 12:00:01 AM,
where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". That does expose one
unfortunate weakness of this system: unless you introduce an additional
layer of complexity, e.g. using "00:00 M", the notations for noon and
midnight would be identical.)
12 Noon and 12 Midnight works.
(Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and 12:00:01 AM,
where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". That does expose one unfortunate weakness of this system: unless you introduce an additional
layer of complexity, e.g. using "00:00 M", the notations for noon and midnight would be identical.)
On 2024-06-24 at 18:12, John Hasler wrote:
The Wanderer writes:
(Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and 12:00:01 AM,
where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". That does expose one
unfortunate weakness of this system: unless you introduce an additional
layer of complexity, e.g. using "00:00 M", the notations for noon and
midnight would be identical.)
12 Noon and 12 Midnight works.
Except that "noon" doesn't begin with "m", and therefore "12:00 noon"
can't be abbreviated to "12:00 M".
I think that (plus the fact of "ante meridiem"/"post meridiem") was
probably what I was drawing on in coming up with the idea in the first
place.
--
The Wanderer
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
On 2024-06-24 at 09:41, Erwan David wrote:
AM/PM would not be so strange if between 11AM and 1 PM it was 12 AM
...
Although I don't think anything or anyone actually does it this way, I
think strictly speaking the correct 12-hour notation for that time would
be "12:00 M" - followed by 12:00:01 PM, and preceded by 11:59:59 AM.
AM stands for "ante meridiem", i.e., before the midpoint; PM stands for
"post meridiem", i.e., after the midpoint. The only correct term for the
time that is exactly the midpoint would be "meridiem", and therefore, M.
(Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and 12:00:01 AM,
where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". That does expose one unfortunate weakness of this system: unless you introduce an additional
layer of complexity, e.g. using "00:00 M", the notations for noon and midnight would be identical.)
So I have this digital clock up there in my panel, and in the virtual machine here running Slackware I also have one. The one under Debian shows 00:00 when it hits midnight, while the one under Slackware shows 12:00...
I wonder what decisions were made to give this result?
On Mon 24 Jun 2024 at 17:12:18 (-0500), John Hasler wrote:
The Wanderer writes:
(Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and
12:00:01 AM, where the standalone M would stand for "midnight".
That does expose one unfortunate weakness of this system: unless
you introduce an additional layer of complexity, e.g. using
"00:00 M", the notations for noon and midnight would be
identical.)
12 Noon and 12 Midnight works.
Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon,
is out there in some pre-2008 documents. We've been here before:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/09/msg00471.html
Cheers,
David.
On 23/6/24 23:22, eben@gmx.us wrote:
I started using 24 hour time in junior high school with digital watches. I >> just thought it made more sense, especially for setting alarms. Several
decades later I've not seen any reason to change, though it annoys my wife.
Sounds like a good argument for an analogue clock
I wrote:
12 Noon and 12 Midnight works.
David Wright wrote:
Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon,
is out there in some pre-2008 documents.
If you use M for noon you should use either AM or PM for midnight.
12 Noon and 12 Midnight works.
Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon,
is out there in some pre-2008 documents.
On Wed 26 Jun 2024 at 12:50:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:25:38 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
I wrote:
12 Noon and 12 Midnight works.
David Wright wrote:
Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon,
is out there in some pre-2008 documents.
If you use M for noon you should use either AM or PM for midnight.
That was the case in 1984¹, when they used PM, which agrees with the expression "midnight on Saturday", and with the terminology of
deadlines, both of which assume that midnight belongs to the end
of the day. But it's still somewhat arbitrary.
By the 2000 edition, they decided to eliminate M in favour of 12 AM, presumably because of 12 PM being already established for midnight.
Then, in the 2008 edition, they swapped AM and PM around, without
so much as a footnote.
Or... you could STOP confusing yourself and everyone around you, and
use the correct, standard notation.
12:00 AM = Midnight
12:00 PM = Noon
Like it or not, this is what people agreed on, decades or centuries ago.
If you use this, you will be understood. If you make up your own crazy
crap, you will not be. And then you risk polluting your mind with your
made-up crap to the point where you can no longer remember what the
correct versions are.
I don't think that adopting AM/PM at 12 o'clock is some centuries-old tradition, with such a recent volte-face. The best idea is just to
avoid them both. As the Chicago Manual of Style online FAQ says:
"Q. To me, 12:00 is either noon or midnight, never a.m. or p.m.
I keep seeing copy that says “before 12 p.m.” and I can’t
convince the copywriters that this is confusing. Can you cite any
rule that would clarify this once and for all?
"A. Yes. Please see CMOS 9.38: “Except in the twenty-four-hour system
(see 9.39), numbers should never be used to express noon or
midnight (except, informally, in an expression like twelve o'clock
at night). Although noon can be expressed as 12:00 m. (m. =
meridies), very few use that form. And the term 12:00 p.m. is
ambiguous, if not illogical.”
I was taught that at school in the 1950s. It seems it got forgotten.
¹ various editions of US Government Printing Office Style Manual.
Cheers,
David.
On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:25:38 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
I wrote:
12 Noon and 12 Midnight works.
David Wright wrote:
Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon,
is out there in some pre-2008 documents.
If you use M for noon you should use either AM or PM for midnight.
Or... you could STOP confusing yourself and everyone around you, and
use the correct, standard notation.
12:00 AM = Midnight
12:00 PM = Noon
Like it or not, this is what people agreed on, decades or centuries ago.
If you use this, you will be understood. If you make up your own crazy
crap, you will not be. And then you risk polluting your mind with your made-up crap to the point where you can no longer remember what the
correct versions are.
Le 28 juin 2024 13:12:03 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> a écrit :
On Wed 26 Jun 2024 at 12:50:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:Seen in Japan that noon is 0:00 pm
On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:25:38 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
I wrote:
12 Noon and 12 Midnight works.
David Wright wrote:
Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon,
is out there in some pre-2008 documents.
If you use M for noon you should use either AM or PM for midnight.
That was the case in 1984¹, when they used PM, which agrees with the
expression "midnight on Saturday", and with the terminology of
deadlines, both of which assume that midnight belongs to the end
of the day. But it's still somewhat arbitrary.
By the 2000 edition, they decided to eliminate M in favour of 12 AM,
presumably because of 12 PM being already established for midnight.
Then, in the 2008 edition, they swapped AM and PM around, without
so much as a footnote.
Or... you could STOP confusing yourself and everyone around you, and
use the correct, standard notation.
12:00 AM = Midnight
12:00 PM = Noon
Like it or not, this is what people agreed on, decades or centuries ago. >>> If you use this, you will be understood. If you make up your own crazy >>> crap, you will not be. And then you risk polluting your mind with your >>> made-up crap to the point where you can no longer remember what the
correct versions are.
I don't think that adopting AM/PM at 12 o'clock is some centuries-old
tradition, with such a recent volte-face. The best idea is just to
avoid them both. As the Chicago Manual of Style online FAQ says:
"Q. To me, 12:00 is either noon or midnight, never a.m. or p.m.
I keep seeing copy that says “before 12 p.m.” and I can’t
convince the copywriters that this is confusing. Can you cite any
rule that would clarify this once and for all?
"A. Yes. Please see CMOS 9.38: “Except in the twenty-four-hour system
(see 9.39), numbers should never be used to express noon or
midnight (except, informally, in an expression like twelve o'clock >> at night). Although noon can be expressed as 12:00 m. (m. =
meridies), very few use that form. And the term 12:00 p.m. is
ambiguous, if not illogical.”
I was taught that at school in the 1950s. It seems it got forgotten.
¹ various editions of US Government Printing Office Style Manual.
Cheers,
David.
Quite logical
--
Erwan David
On 28/6/24 16:13, John Crawley wrote:
Except that midnight is also 0:00, so you still have the am/pm confusion.
They should have kept 0:00 just for midnight really.
That's the first time I've seen anything to justify calling midnight AM. Thankyou
But how can mid-day be after mid-day? Ah: it has been set up as a convention.
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