• Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

    From eben@gmx.us@21:1/5 to Vitold S on Tue Jun 18 02:40:01 2024
    On 6/17/24 19:44, Vitold S wrote:
    Today in my environment I can be faced with a CD only for scaring away
    birds or as an intricate amulet on teenagers’ backpacks as a reference to the era of their parents, but not for recording images. Let's say, is this
    my particular progressive experience, or do people still find the discs to
    be as functional as ever?

    I have two DVD/CD drives (one reads BD as well) because I often get movies
    from the library on DVD, copy them to iso, then parse and transcode to
    several mkvs. Yes, this probably makes me a weird. But hey, it suits my needs. I haven't needed them for another use in ages, however.

    --
    Since methane is eight times more effective as a greenhouse gas than
    carbon dioxide, it is ecologically irresponsible for you to not light
    your farts. -- TW in AFCA 12/2012

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  • From Dan Ritter@21:1/5 to Vitold S on Tue Jun 18 02:40:01 2024
    Vitold S wrote:
    Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
    versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
    download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
    will happen?

    Several years ago.

    https://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst

    says:

    ---

    You can download a couple of image files of small size, suitable for USB Sticks and similar devices, write them to the media, and then start the installation by booting from that.

    There is some diversity in the support for installing from various very small images between the architectures.

    For details, please refer to the installation manual for your architecture, especially the chapter "Obtaining System Installation Media".

    Here are the links to the available image files (look at the MANIFEST file for information):

    amd64 arm64 armhf i386 mips64el ppc64el s390x

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  • From Stefan Monnier@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 18 03:10:02 2024
    Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
    versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
    download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
    will happen?

    AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
    a USB flash drive. So I think the question is whether it's time to
    change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
    onto optical media.


    Stefan

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  • From Stefan Monnier@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 18 08:00:01 2024
    No! Some of us want to keep using DVD and not be pushed away

    In which sense would it push you away.

    I'm not suggesting any change to the ISO files themselves.
    Only changes to the doc to clarify that these are images that are
    expected to be used on USB flash dirves (and they also work on CD/DVD, including virtual ones for VMs).

    The intention is to avoid confusing those users who intuitively skip the
    parts talking about CD/DVD images because they don't have a CD/DVD reader/writer (or don't want to use it).


    Stefan

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  • From Klaus Singvogel@21:1/5 to Marco Moock on Tue Jun 18 09:10:01 2024
    Marco Moock wrote:
    Most new computers don't have an optical disc drive, customers don't
    request it and if they want one, they can buy one and add it.

    I've an optical disc drive with USB connection. I can easily move it to my new / next computer, when I upgrade, and don't need a place in the computer.

    I'm still using DVDs to generate bootable Debian discs and install with them my next computer, or use it for the rescue system (rarely).

    Best regards,
    Klaus.
    --
    Klaus Singvogel
    GnuPG-Key-ID: 1024R/5068792D 1994-06-27

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  • From Marco Moock@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 18 08:40:01 2024
    Am 18.06.2024 um 02:44:46 Uhr schrieb Vitold S:

    More and more I see that people usually use USB flash drives everyday
    and some large companies (like Microsoft) today provide an image with
    a USB stick.

    Most new computers don't have an optical disc drive, customers don't
    request it and if they want one, they can buy one and add it.
    USB is available every time, thumb disks with 16 GB are available at
    the supermarket and can be used for many purposes.

    Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
    versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
    download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this
    moment will happen?

    The images provided are hybrid, they can be used on CD/DVD (if the
    image is small enough, e.g. netinstall) or USB thumb disks.
    Just write it there using dd.

    --
    Gruß
    Marco

    Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1718671486muell@cartoonies.org

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Jean-Fran=C3=A7ois_Bachel@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 18 10:50:01 2024
    Hello ^^)

    Le 18/06/2024 à 03:00, Stefan Monnier a écrit :
    Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
    versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
    download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
    will happen?

    AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
    a USB flash drive. So I think the question is whether it's time to
    change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
    onto optical media.

    Just a question : why should we ditch the cd or dvd just because some
    guys said that's it was obsolete or inferior to the usb keys et al ?

    Memory keys (and ssd and downlodable audio and ...) all have still a
    major flaw in regard to hard stuff like CD dvd or real hard disks, and
    it's their 'volatility'.

    these memory devices just dies on us with their contents (our valuable
    or paid for datas, way more often than a hard disk or cd dvd stuff.

    and I don't think this will change soon, not where we are now in technology.

    btw, the industry pushes forward a total abandon of hard copy of the
    stuff we buy with good money, only to ensure that we would buy it again
    if it was to disapear 'magically' and the buying contract says so in one
    form or another...
    Remember the 'robbery' that has occured when buyers of electronic books
    found a day that some of their bought books had vanished from their
    readers devices 'cause the reseller contract had been broke by the
    publisher of the books with some merchants ?

    That will be impossible with a real book, or cd, dvd, physical bought
    software. (well if your house doesn't catch a fire at least ;))

    industry does not want you to own what you pay for in hard form. as well
    as banks are pushing to the abandon of physical money (notes or coins)
    to have even more control of your hard won money and have you dancing in
    their hands...

    sorry if it's OT, but just think to all this by yourselves. ^^)

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  • From Joe@21:1/5 to Vitold S on Tue Jun 18 12:00:01 2024
    On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 02:44:46 +0300
    Vitold S <vit1251@gmail.com> wrote:



    Again, forgive me if I don’t know some of the important details and difficulties of booting modern PCs via UEFI or some other feature more conveniently solved in the CD/DVD format. Then just tell me about it,
    I'll read it.

    No, no problems booting UEFI from USB stick. I need to do that to get
    back to grub every time I boot Windows on my netbook, which isn't very
    often.

    --
    Joe

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  • From Marco Moock@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 18 12:10:02 2024
    Am 18.06.2024 um 10:51:38 Uhr schrieb Joe:

    No, no problems booting UEFI from USB stick. I need to do that to get
    back to grub every time I boot Windows on my netbook, which isn't very
    often.

    You should be able to change the boot order in the UEFI setup or inside
    of Windows.

    --
    Gruß
    Marco

    Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1718700698muell@cartoonies.org

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  • From Detlef Vollmann@21:1/5 to jeremy ardley on Tue Jun 18 15:10:01 2024
    On 6/18/24 04:10, jeremy ardley wrote:

    On 18/6/24 09:00, Stefan Monnier wrote:
    Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
    versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
    download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment >>> will happen?
    AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
    a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
    change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
    onto optical media.


             Stefan


    The ISO images will be around for a long time. They are the primary
    mechanism of creating virtual machines by attaching virtual drives to a
    .iso file and booting.

    And some of the BIOSes of old PCs are not able to boot from USB...

    Detlef

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  • From Joe@21:1/5 to Marco Moock on Tue Jun 18 15:20:01 2024
    On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 12:02:51 +0200
    Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:

    Am 18.06.2024 um 10:51:38 Uhr schrieb Joe:

    No, no problems booting UEFI from USB stick. I need to do that to
    get back to grub every time I boot Windows on my netbook, which
    isn't very often.

    You should be able to change the boot order in the UEFI setup or
    inside of Windows.


    Yes, I should. But the (Acer) bios switches back to the Windows drive on startup, and does not honour DefaultBoot. It does recognise NextBoot,
    so I have a boot script to set NextBoot in Linux. I can also do it
    manually with efibootmgr.

    Windows does not have a simple means to set NextBoot, it requires
    rebooting into Safe Mode and editing the boot script there. It's
    simpler to boot a Debian installer USB to rescue mode and run
    efibootmgr from there.

    And yes, I've tried all the UEFI fixes and workarounds on the Net, and
    none of them work.

    --
    Joe

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  • From Stefan Monnier@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 18 15:30:01 2024
    And some of the BIOSes of old PCs are not able to boot from USB...

    Indeed, tho I suspect those machines are 20 years old or more (at least,
    all my machines that are <20 years old support booting from a USB key
    drive, while of the two older machines I have (both 21 years old), one
    of them doesn't support booting from a USB key (tho it supposedly can
    boot from USB floppy)).


    Stefan

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  • From Thomas Schmitt@21:1/5 to George at Clug on Tue Jun 18 16:10:02 2024
    Hi,

    George at Clug wrote:
    1) I use DVD ISO images to create a bootable USB flash drive. Super easy to do. I do not know how to do this with BD images, so if you do, please let me know.
    # ls -hal /dev/sd*
    # cp CentOS-7-x86_64-Everything-2009.iso /dev/sdf

    As far as Debian amd64 ISOs are concerned, all first volumes of a media
    set have the boot equipment for booting via BIOS and EFI from optical
    medium and USB stick.
    So the usual ways of plainly copying the image to the base device of the
    USB stick will work: cp, dd, Rufus, xorriso-dd-target, ...
    Some of them impose the risk to shoot the own foot. In contrast, one can
    hardly overwrite the system disk while burning an optical medium.

    The biggest available Debian 12.5 amd64 ISO is "DLBD-1" with about 50 GB:
    https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo
    https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.template
    It is possible to merge it with DLBD-2 to get an All-in-one ISO.


    Have a nice day :)

    Thomas

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  • From George at Clug@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 18 15:40:01 2024
    On Tuesday, 18-06-2024 at 09:44 Vitold S wrote:
    Good news everyone,

    Sorry that the question may have already been clarified earlier, but
    I am
    not a regular member of the user mailing list, so I ask it again.

    Every time I download the Debian image, I am faced with a moral
    disorder
    and philosophically go on a historical journey into the past, so
    that I can
    remember and dive deeply into memory during the times of using CDs.

    Today in my environment I can be faced with a CD only for scaring
    away
    birds or as an intricate amulet on teenagers’ backpacks as a
    reference to
    the era of their parents, but not for recording images. Let's say,
    is this
    my particular progressive experience, or do people still find the
    discs to
    be as functional as ever?

    If by CD you mean CD/DVD/BD then, I still have use for them in the
    following ways...


    More and more I see that people usually use USB flash drives
    everyday and
    some large companies (like Microsoft) today provide an image with a
    USB
    stick.

    1) I use DVD ISO images to create a bootable USB flash drive. Super
    easy to do. I do not know how to do this with BD images, so if you do,
    please let me know.
    # ls -hal /dev/sd*
    # cp CentOS-7-x86_64-Everything-2009.iso /dev/sdf

    2) While small, I do have a collection of movie CDs, SVCDs, DVDs and
    BDs that I can watch. Though to be realistic, I would prefer to have
    these as files on the computer.

    3) I have a several older computers which have CD/DVD drives by which
    I can install from.  However, once again, if find booting from a USB
    is usually much easier.

    4) I also create Virtual Machines on a regular basis, and use DVD ISO
    images to do so. For this I prefer the ease of use of an ISO image.

    5) There are some versions of Debian that I keep an entire DVD set of
    ISO images, so even when Mirrors are not available, or no longer
    supported, I can still build a complete system.




    Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
    versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
    download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this
    moment
    will happen?


    While I would prefer not to see CD/DVD/BDs become extinct, it seems to
    be inevitable that one day they will. Please do not hasten their
    demise.




    Again, forgive me if I don’t know some of the important details
    and
    difficulties of booting modern PCs via UEFI or some other feature
    more
    conveniently solved in the CD/DVD format. Then just tell me about
    it, I'll
    read it.

    Thanks.


    <html>
    <head>
    <style type="text/css">
    body,p,td,div,span{
    font-size:13px; font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    };
    body p{
    margin:0px;
    }
    </style>
    </head>
    <body>On Tuesday, 18-06-2024 at 09:44 Vitold S wrote:<br>
    &gt; Good news everyone,<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; Sorry that the question may have already been clarified earlier, but I am<br>
    &gt; not a regular member of the user mailing list, so I ask it again.<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; Every time I download the Debian image, I am faced with a moral disorder<br>
    &gt; and philosophically go on a historical journey into the past, so that I can<br>
    &gt; remember and dive deeply into memory during the times of using CDs.<br> &gt; <br>
    &gt; Today in my environment I can be faced with a CD only for scaring away<br> &gt; birds or as an intricate amulet on teenagers’ backpacks as a reference to<br>
    &gt; the era of their parents, but not for recording images. Let's say, is this<br>
    &gt; my particular progressive experience, or do people still find the discs to<br>
    &gt; be as functional as ever?<br>

    If by CD you mean CD/DVD/BD then, I still have use for them in the following ways...<br>

    &gt; <br>
    &gt; More and more I see that people usually use USB flash drives everyday and<br>
    &gt; some large companies (like Microsoft) today provide an image with a USB<br>
    &gt; stick.<br>

    1) I use DVD ISO images to create a bootable USB flash drive. Super easy to do. I do not know how to do this with BD images, so if you do, please let me know.<br>
    # ls -hal /dev/sd*<br>
    # cp CentOS-7-x86_64-Everything-2009.iso /dev/sdf<br>

    2) While small, I do have a collection of movie CDs, SVCDs, DVDs and BDs that I can watch. Though to be realistic, I would prefer to have these as files on the computer.<br>

    3) I have a several older computers which have CD/DVD drives by which I can install from.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, once again, if find booting from a USB is usually much easier.<br>

    4) I also create Virtual Machines on a regular basis, and use DVD ISO images to do so. For this I prefer the ease of use of an ISO image.<br>

    5) There are some versions of Debian that I keep an entire DVD set of ISO images, so even when Mirrors are not available, or no longer supported, I can still build a complete system. <br>

    <br><br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other<br> &gt; versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary<br> &gt; download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment<br><div>
    &gt; will happen?</div><div><br></div><div>While I would prefer not to see CD/DVD/BDs become extinct, it seems to be inevitable that one day they will. Please do not hasten their demise.<br></div><div><br></div>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; Again, forgive me if I don’t know some of the important details and<br> &gt; difficulties of booting modern PCs via UEFI or some other feature more<br> &gt; conveniently solved in the CD/DVD format. Then just tell me about it, I'll<br>
    &gt; read it.<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; Thanks.<br>
    &gt;</body></html>

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  • From George at Clug@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 18 17:10:01 2024
    On Wednesday, 19-06-2024 at 00:08 Thomas Schmitt wrote:
    Hi,

    George at Clug wrote:
    1) I use DVD ISO images to create a bootable USB flash drive. Super easy to do. I do not know how to do this with BD images, so if you do, please let me
    know.
    # ls -hal /dev/sd*
    # cp CentOS-7-x86_64-Everything-2009.iso /dev/sdf

    As far as Debian amd64 ISOs are concerned, all first volumes of a media
    set have the boot equipment for booting via BIOS and EFI from optical
    medium and USB stick.
    So the usual ways of plainly copying the image to the base device of the
    USB stick will work: cp, dd, Rufus, xorriso-dd-target, ...
    Some of them impose the risk to shoot the own foot. In contrast, one can hardly overwrite the system disk while burning an optical medium.

    The biggest available Debian 12.5 amd64 ISO is "DLBD-1" with about 50 GB:
    https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo
    https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.template
    It is possible to merge it with DLBD-2 to get an All-in-one ISO.

    I have never been able to use .jigdo or understand jigdo, sadly I do not know how to use them. ISOs I understand.

    I found this link, but do not understand what it is saying. It suggests "these images may also be written directly to a USB stick" but does not show how to do this.
    https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-16G/

    If you can show the commands that produces a very large ISO from a BD .jigdo file, then that would help.

    Something like: (??)

    # wget https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo
    # cp https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo /dev/sdf (but I guess this does not work?)

    George.



    Have a nice day :)

    Thomas



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  • From Thomas Schmitt@21:1/5 to George at Clug on Tue Jun 18 18:00:01 2024
    Hi,

    George at Clug wrote:
    I have never been able to use .jigdo or understand jigdo, sadly I do not
    know how to use them. ISOs I understand.

    Go by "cd" into a directory where you have enough space to store the
    ISO and try this:

    https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#Download_one_or_more_Jigdo_ISOs

    (Ignore the last few sentences about the screensaver of the Debian Live
    system, unless you really do this with such a system.)

    Possibly it is necessary to install Debian package "jigdo-file":
    https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#Install_package_jigdo-file

    If your Debian is very old, you need to help the program "jigdo-file"
    with downloading the .jidgo and .template file:
    https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#If_needed.2C_work_around_a_shortcoming_of_older_jigdo-lite

    The run of jigdo-lite for a 50 GB ISO will last quite some time.
    If it aborts (maybe because you decided to abort it) then you may resume
    it at any time by going into the same directory and run "jigdo-lite" again
    with the same input.


    I found this link, but do not understand what it is saying. It suggests "these images may also be written directly to a USB stick" but does not show how to do this.
    https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-16G/

    This text appears on all the amd64 pages of
    https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd
    It simply means that you may use the usual methods of putting the ISO
    plainly onto the base device file of the USB stick: cp, dd, ...


    # cp https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo
    /dev/sdf (but I guess this does not work?)

    No, this is too optimistic. :))
    But the URL is the answer to one of the three questions by jigdo-lite.

    The .jigdo file is mainly a compressed list of packages which the program "jigdo-lite" shall download and put into the ISO 9660 image framework that
    is defined by the .template file.
    You can view its cleartext by:
    gunzip <debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo | less
    (The prefixes like "Db7HOR6y7sXgB4EdExdZCA=" are used by jigdo-lite to
    find the correct destination in the .template file.)

    jigdo-lite unpacks the .template file to a holey hull of the .iso.
    Then it downloads all the necessary packages to fill the holes in this
    hull. When all packages are filled in, the .iso file will be complete
    and match its checksum as published in
    https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/SHA256SUMS
    i.e.
    bb72436cede8b59ccca8ba6f802d97ebfd944a87bfc1edb94be361e849545249 debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.iso


    Have a nice day :)

    Thomas

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  • From James H. H. Lampert@21:1/5 to Thomas Dineen on Tue Jun 18 18:00:02 2024
    On 6/17/24 7:44 PM, Thomas Dineen wrote:
    No! Some of us want to keep using DVD and not be pushed away

    What he said.

    Might I humbly suggest that this whole thread title is provocative,
    alarming, and maybe even a little inflamatory?

    Some of us still prefer physical media, whether in the form of printed
    books, CDs, tapes, DVDs, vinyl, &c. Most of my computers have at least
    one drive capable of handling physical media, and most of those that
    don't can talk to my USB optical drive. And I regularly "sneakernet"
    files between two of them, on a Zip Disk. And my stereo system still has
    a CD drive, a CD-R drive, and a tape deck . . . but NOTHING that can
    deal with downloaded recordings unless burned onto physical media. And I
    LIKE IT THAT WAY.

    I will note that when my previous DOSbook failed, I needed PC-DOS 2000
    on physical media in order to do the OS-install.

    And I'll also note that at present, the Linux subsystem on my Chromebook
    is, in a word, hosed, and I blame that on unasked-for "updates" (of
    dubious value at best) being foisted upon me.

    --
    JHHL

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  • From John Hasler@21:1/5 to JHHL on Tue Jun 18 19:10:01 2024
    JHHL writes:
    Some of us still prefer physical media

    Do you mean read-only media? All media are physical.
    --
    John Hasler
    john@sugarbit.com
    Elmwood, WI USA

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  • From James H. H. Lampert@21:1/5 to John Hasler on Tue Jun 18 19:40:01 2024
    On 6/18/24 10:01 AM, John Hasler wrote:
    JHHL writes:
    Some of us still prefer physical media

    Do you mean read-only media? All media are physical.

    No, I mean physical media as opposed to downloads.

    Application software, I've resigned myself to downloads, although as I
    said, I am not happy with software that installs updates of dubious
    value without so much as a how-do-you-do.

    Even operating systems, when there is no other choice available.

    But I prefer my books to be in a form made from an eminently sustainable
    and recyclable resource, a form requiring (at least for the sighted) no auxiliary hardware other than maybe a pair of reading glasses (which I
    now need even to read screens). A form that can also be adapted to those
    who read with their fingertips. A form that a publisher cannot yank away
    from those who paid good money.

    As for recorded music and audiovisual content, I again prefer something
    that cannot be taken away without physically carrying it off. And I have
    the additional objection here that the most common digital music formats
    use lossy compression. *VERY* lossy compression. And I find it
    thoroughly laughable when vinyl-snobs listen to homemade MP3 dubs of
    their records (surface noise, compression artifacts, and all).

    But this is veering far off-topic. My previous message was mainly to
    point out that the thread title can scare the <censored> out of people,
    and seems to have very little to do with what the thread is actually
    *about,* i.e., it appears to be about delivery forms other than optical
    or magnetic media for OS and application software, and compatibility of disk-images with those forms. Not about *getting rid of* optical media
    (or magnetic media, for that matter).

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  • From Karen Lewellen@21:1/5 to Stefan Monnier on Tue Jun 18 19:30:01 2024
    Freely owning I have not followed this entire thread, I simply wish to add
    a couple of points.
    First, Linux is, or was represented to me, to reflect choices. Those
    included many paths to incorporating the system, allowing an individual
    to use the equipment they have right now to draw upon Linux.
    Second, I have two machines in this room both of which are less than 10
    years old, that have cd DVD drives in them, and allow for those boot
    choices. after all, one might choose to enjoy music, or a film, without
    the need for bondage, and subscription factors, in those formats.
    My point is this.
    Given how vast the digital divide can be globally, why not insure choices
    to accessing Linux in general and Debian particularly?
    Just because your machines are 20 years old, does not mean that is the
    case
    for everyone.
    Just my thoughts,



    On Tue, 18 Jun 2024, Stefan Monnier wrote:

    And some of the BIOSes of old PCs are not able to boot from USB...

    Indeed, tho I suspect those machines are 20 years old or more (at least,
    all my machines that are <20 years old support booting from a USB key
    drive, while of the two older machines I have (both 21 years old), one
    of them doesn't support booting from a USB key (tho it supposedly can
    boot from USB floppy)).


    Stefan



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