On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:

I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more familiar with school systems and other institutions).

If you're going to set it up from your own money - second hand Lenovo
Thinkpads / HP laptops ex-business.

Relatively cheap, robust and available - and there will likely be more
given Windows 11 requirements.

A very good friend once taught a class of teenagers Linux after helping
them build their own computers from junk and older donated hardware.
Each teen got a free computer but had to research manuals, motherboard connectors, motherboard and processor specifications ...

This gave them a really good grounding for appreciating hardware and
software. Most of them ended up running Debian, I think.

I am torn with whether dual boot is the way to go, given all the problems I see with dual boot with Windows now. (I finally dumped Windows entirely
some months ago when I found a decent, modern replacement for Microsoft
Word and for the H&R Block US Federal tax program).

With UEFI, it's possible.

All the cheap laptops in local Best Buys and other local stores have
Windows installed, and, to be fair, that's all most adults and young people have been exposed to.

A fun exercise is to ask them to reinstall windows from scratch,
help them partition the disk and then install Debian from scratch.

All best, with whatever you decide to do

Andrew Cater
(amacater@debian.org)

Note I do not want to get involved with Chromebooks.

Thanks for any suggestions.

-Tom

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Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> wrote on 05/09/2024 at 00:04:33+0200:

I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I
want to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu
is more familiar with school systems and other institutions).

I am torn with whether dual boot is the way to go, given all the
problems I see with dual boot with Windows now. (I finally dumped
Windows entirely some months ago when I found a decent, modern
replacement for Microsoft Word and for the H&R Block US Federal tax
program).

I have a Windows 11/Debian Trixie dualboot on my workstation, never had
a single issue. FWIW, when you install Debian after Windows in general
things go well. Of course depending on the UEFI BIOS, things can be a
bit rough to configure properly, but when it's done it's good.

All the cheap laptops in local Best Buys and other local stores have
Windows installed, and, to be fair, that's all most adults and young
people have been exposed to.

Note I do not want to get involved with Chromebooks.

Good idea.

So, to come back to your point: if you buy cheap laptops with windows,
no one is forcing you to keep it. But dual boot shouldn't be an issue
and can ease the switch for people you're trying to onboard.

Remember to shrink the windows partition from Windows itself, as
otherwise it might really get screwed up.
--
PEB

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On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:

I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more familiar with school systems and other institutions).

I suggest an HP stream. I got myself an 11" one for £210 about 2 years ago. I get 12+ hours from the battery.
11" screen is great for me to carry around in my ruck sack, for a student maybe a 14" one:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/3419636

Other models, I do not know the difference, dig deep in the specs:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/7085891

I live in the UK so prices in £ (pounds).

I wiped it completely and installed Linux Mint. Works well, the only thing that needed fiddling was to get it to hibernate when I shut the lid.

All the cheap laptops in local Best Buys and other local stores have
Windows installed, and, to be fair, that's all most adults and young people have been exposed to.

Just wipe it install Linux.

A few years ago I bought 2 identical laptops. At the same time I switched both on and on one let MS Windows set itself up. The other I installed Linux.
The Linux one was installed & ready to work while the other was still wallying around - which I did not let it finish.

I would suggest that any machine you are thinking of buying you go to the shop and boot it from a memory stick‡‡ to check that it all works under Linux. The
most important thing that you might have problems with is the WiFi card.

‡‡ Booting from memory stick will not change the hard disk, ie is safe to do.

--
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

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On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 17:04:33 -0500
Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> wrote:

I am torn with whether dual boot is the way to go, given all the
problems I see with dual boot with Windows now. (I finally dumped
Windows entirely some months ago when I found a decent, modern
replacement for Microsoft Word and for the H&R Block US Federal tax
program).

I've never had a problem with dual booting both Windows and Linux, and
I started doing that in the 1990s. Install Windows first. It will hog
the entire drive, so the next step is to shrink its partition to
something reasonable. The Windows rescue partition is usually at the
end of the disk; you can leave it there. Then install Linux on the
newly freed up space.

I find a 256GB SSD suitable for me; for your purpose a 128 GB drive
should do it.

What did you replace the H&R Block program with?

--
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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For inexpensive, low-mileage, office-quality machines (laptop &
desktop) try blairtech.com.

You'll get a W10 or W11 machine.

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On Wednesday, 4 September 2024 18:47:25 -04 Charles Curley wrote:

On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 17:04:33 -0500

Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> wrote:

I am torn with whether dual boot is the way to go, given all the
problems I see with dual boot with Windows now. (I finally dumped
Windows entirely some months ago when I found a decent, modern
replacement for Microsoft Word and for the H&R Block US Federal tax program).

I've never had a problem with dual booting both Windows and Linux, and
I started doing that in the 1990s. Install Windows first. It will hog
the entire drive, so the next step is to shrink its partition to
something reasonable. The Windows rescue partition is usually at the
end of the disk; you can leave it there. Then install Linux on the
newly freed up space.

I find a 256GB SSD suitable for me; for your purpose a 128 GB drive
should do it.

What did you replace the H&R Block program with?

Hi Tom,
I shy away from HP Laptops since the time they still were COMPAQs. I
once was given a HP Laptop for free and it is only doing its job now as
an OpenBSD terminal with RS232 connections to several other boxes.
I preferred buying refurbished pro LENOVOs which are more likely to have hardware which works fine with both Linux and OpenBSD and is inexpensive.
My last purchase of a Laptop was a TUXEDO with Ubuntu KDE preinstalled.
All devices are guaranteed to work and they do. But that does not fit
into you requirement of "inexpesive" I guess. O, and it hosts two
virtual machines with Win10home and Win11pro which also are working
flawlessly.

I wish you success
--
Eike Lantzsch KY4PZ / ZP5CGE

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On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 10:18:53PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:

I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more familiar with school systems and other institutions).

If you're going to set it up from your own money - second hand Lenovo Thinkpads / HP laptops ex-business.

I second that. Linux-only since... uh... 1995 or something. Second-hand thinkpads (with two exceptions: one eee-PC (was good, for the time) and
one Lenovo Ideapad (not so good, but my employer insisted), both new.

Currently I buy them at a brick-and-mortar store in my city specialised
in refurbished gear. Some markup wrt technofeudalist stores, but friendly
folks who know what they're doing, so worth my support every cent.

Cheers
--
t

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On Thu, Sep 05, 2024 at 06:30:25AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

Currently I buy them at a brick-and-mortar store in my city [...]

And, oh, by default they come empty or with pre-installed Ubuntu. You
can order them with Windows, but this costs extra (as it should be).

Cheers
--
t

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On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:

I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more familiar with school systems and other institutions).

You seem to be across the pond, but I suggest that you look at Clevo
machines if you are looking at laptops. These are usually sold under
other names but come without any Windows. You can buy without any
operating system but often are available with the option to pre-install
various linux distributions.

A quick search suggested https://system76.com. There must be many more.
I have not used system76, so can't comment on their offerings.

I am writing this on a Clevo laptop which has been reliable and fast,
purchased in the UK with no operating system. It was very good value.

ael

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On September 4, 2024 5:18:53 PM CDT, "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> wrote:

On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:

I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more
familiar with school systems and other institutions).

If you're going to set it up from your own money - second hand Lenovo >Thinkpads / HP laptops ex-business.

+1 to this. I've had great luck with used Thinkpads.

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Ryan Nowakowski <ryan@fattuba.com> writes:

On September 4, 2024 5:18:53 PM CDT, "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> wrote:

On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:

I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want >>> to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more >>> familiar with school systems and other institutions).

If you're going to set it up from your own money - second hand Lenovo >>Thinkpads / HP laptops ex-business.

+1 to this. I've had great luck with used Thinkpads.

In principle also +1 regarding HPs (I have no experience with
Thinkpads). However, my current HP EliteBook 840 G6 has no 'insert'
key. In more or less the same place it does have 'pick up' and 'hang
up' phone keys, but these do nothing and I have had no luck in remapping
one to become an 'insert' key. I usually use the laptop with an
external keyboard which does have an 'insert' key, so it is only
infrequently that I have to do without, but in those cases it is an
absolute PITA.

Cheers,

Loris

--
This signature is currently under constuction.

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