I have a freshly installed Debian stable and I'm trying to read an
HDD from a previous machine. I put it into a disk enclosure that
connects to the new machine by USB and powered everything up, but the
stable Debian doesn't see the new disk that is connected by USB. Is
there some driver or package that I need to install to make this work?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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which file system is the old hdd formated in ntfs?

if so run in terminal

sudo apt install ntfs-3g

or use gparted to see the file system of the hdd
sudo apt install gparted

On Thu, 2024-10-03 at 19:57 -0700, Will Mengarini wrote:

e new disk that is connected by USB.  Is
there some driver or package that I need to install to make this
work?

--
founder of yellow rose group 💛️

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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The old HDD is mostly ext3; there was also an
ext2 boot partition, and a swap partition. But
the new Debian shows nothing new in `df`. Is
there some other command I should use to probe for
whether Debian knows there's a HDD connected by USB?

* victoria crenshaw <sparky4@johnreedcenter.net> [24-10/03=Thu 22:00 -0500]:

which file system is the old hdd formated in ntfs?

if so run in terminal

sudo apt install ntfs-3g

or use gparted to see the file system of the hdd
sudo apt install gparted

On Thu, 2024-10-03 at 19:57 -0700, Will Mengarini wrote:

e new disk that is connected by USB.� Is
there some driver or package that I need to install to make this
work?

--
founder of yellow rose group ?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2024-10-04 16:26, Will Mengarini wrote:

The old HDD is mostly ext3; there was also an
ext2 boot partition, and a swap partition. But
the new Debian shows nothing new in `df`. Is
there some other command I should use to probe for
whether Debian knows there's a HDD connected by USB?

"df" will ignore filesystems until they are mounted.

- Do you see anything in "blkid" when the USB enclosure is attached?

- Do you see anything in "journalctl -f" when you plug in the USB enclosure?

- Do you have a desktop file manager (e.g. Thunar in XFCE), and if so,
does it show any unmounted partitions? As an ordinary user, you might
not have permission to mount or access them, but it would be good to
know if they are there.

Kind regards,

--
Ash Joubert (they/them) <ash@transient.nz>
Director / Game Developer
Transient Software Limited <https://transient.nz/>
New Zealand

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 10/3/24 22:57, Will Mengarini wrote:

I have a freshly installed Debian stable and I'm trying to read an
HDD from a previous machine. I put it into a disk enclosure that
connects to the new machine by USB and powered everything up, but the
stable Debian doesn't see the new disk that is connected by USB.

What do you mean by "doesn't see"? Is the USB device visible? Disk device?
Partition table?

--
A Higgs boson is sitting at the bar when the phone rings. He says to
the bartender "If that's a physicist, tell him you've not seen me."
(maybe by KW in AFCA)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu 03 Oct 2024 at 20:26:55 (-0700), Will Mengarini wrote:

The old HDD is mostly ext3; there was also an
ext2 boot partition, and a swap partition. But
the new Debian shows nothing new in `df`. Is
there some other command I should use to probe for
whether Debian knows there's a HDD connected by USB?

Take a look at /dev/disk/… where the names of the next level
of directories are self-explanatory. The files themselves
are all symlinks pointing to the kernel's device names.

Also /run/udev/data/b… where spinning rust disks are b8:N,
and N is a power of two for a disk, then N+1, N+2 etc for
the partitions. SSDs will be some other number like, say,
b259:0. The file contents are what udev has discovered.

Cheers,
David.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> [24-10/03=Thu 22:44 -0500]:

On Thu 03 Oct 2024 at 20:26:55 (-0700), Will Mengarini wrote:

The old HDD is mostly ext3; there was also an
ext2 boot partition, and a swap partition. [...]

Take a look at /dev/disk/... where the names of the next level
of directories are self-explanatory. The files themselves
are all symlinks pointing to the kernel's device names.

I see lots of directories referring to my SSD, but nothing else.

Also /run/udev/data/b... where spinning rust disks are b8:N,
and N is a power of two for a disk, then N+1, N+2 etc for
the partitions. SSDs will be some other number like, say,
b259:0. The file contents are what udev has discovered.

All I see are b259 and b7. There is no b8. This
does not change when I plug in the enclosure.

Now I realize that there may be an error LED blinking on the HDD. It
is concealed by the enclosure so I had not seen it before. I think
this hard drive is probably bad. It may have been damaged when the
motherboard to which it was attached was damaged by a power surge from
hell, or it may be connected improperly to the enclosure (although
that seems unlikely since there is only one way to connect it).

Or the enclosure may be bad; I only bought one so I have no way
to test that hypothesis. I don't see a brand name anywhere on
the enclosure. I was surprised at how short both the power
and data cables are. The whole thing does seem rather cheap.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* Ash Joubert <ash@transient.nz> [24-10/04=Fri 16:38 +1300]:

On 2024-10-04 16:26, Will Mengarini wrote:

The old HDD is mostly ext3; there was also an
ext2 boot partition, and a swap partition. But
the new Debian shows nothing new in `df`. Is
there some other command I should use to probe for
whether Debian knows there's a HDD connected by USB?

"df" will ignore filesystems until they are mounted.

*headsmack* Thanks.

- Do you see anything in "blkid" when the USB enclosure is attached?

Nothing changes.

- Do you see anything in "journalctl -f" when you plug in the USB enclosure?

No output when I unplug it and replug it.

- Do you have a desktop file manager (e.g. Thunar in XFCE) [...]

No desktop; I haven't installed X yet.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Am Freitag, 4. Oktober 2024, 04:57:19 CEST schrieb Will Mengarini:

I have a freshly installed Debian stable and I'm trying to read an
HDD from a previous machine. I put it into a disk enclosure that
connects to the new machine by USB and powered everything up, but the
stable Debian doesn't see the new disk that is connected by USB. Is
there some driver or package that I need to install to make this work?

You say, it is connected by USB. You then should see the device with the command

lsusb

when the usb-connector is plugged in. However, I have to precice it: You see the controller of the case, you put your HDD in, not the hdd itself!

But, if you can see it, first step is done.

For further examinations I suggest, to do the following commmand as root

tail -f /var/log/syslog

in console and then watch its output by pluggin in and pluggin off the usb- case with the built in hdd.

It should be detected.

If you still can not see the reason, I suggest, for copying the old date using a livefile system like Knoppix, Debian-Live, Kali-Linux, TRK or whatever.

With those you might also be able, to check, if you can mount the usb-device
at all. If this fails, it looks just like your usb-case is incompatrible, try another one if available. There are some USB3 cases, which can not well switch to USB2-mode.

I suppose, it is an IDE-drive, and your controller of the mainboard does have no more IDE-port, does it?

For more hints, i need more information., but that is, what comes in my mind
at the moment. Hope, it helps though.

Best regards and good luck!

Hans

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 00:19:31 -0700
Will Mengarini <seldon@eskimo.com> wrote:

* Ash Joubert <ash@transient.nz> [24-10/04=Fri 16:38 +1300]:

On 2024-10-04 16:26, Will Mengarini wrote:

The old HDD is mostly ext3; there was also an
ext2 boot partition, and a swap partition. But
the new Debian shows nothing new in `df`. Is
there some other command I should use to probe for
whether Debian knows there's a HDD connected by USB?

"df" will ignore filesystems until they are mounted.

*headsmack* Thanks.

- Do you see anything in "blkid" when the USB enclosure is
attached?

Nothing changes.

- Do you see anything in "journalctl -f" when you plug in the USB enclosure?

No output when I unplug it and replug it.

That looks to be a USB problem. The log should show first a USB
connection, then the recognition of a mass storage device, then a
device designation. If none of that happens, a hardware USB problem is suggested. Plug in a random USB stick to see what should happen.

--
Joe

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am 04.10.24 um 04:57 schrieb Will Mengarini:

I have a freshly installed Debian stable and I'm trying to read an
HDD from a previous machine. I put it into a disk enclosure that
connects to the new machine by USB and powered everything up, but the
stable Debian doesn't see the new disk that is connected by USB. Is
there some driver or package that I need to install to make this work?

Can you see the enclosure in the output of `lsusb`?
what is the output of `lsblk`?
If there is a block device it should shown, with there partitions even unmounted.

What's the filesystem you expose to see?
Is there a RAID or LVM on that device, then you should start this first.

Best Regards,

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2024-10-04 20:19, Will Mengarini wrote:

- Do you see anything in "blkid" when the USB enclosure is attached?

Nothing changes.

- Do you see anything in "journalctl -f" when you plug in the USB enclosure?

No output when I unplug it and replug it.

The HDD may not be able to draw enough power. Plain USB A ports can only deliver 2.5W (500mA at 5V). You mentioned that the enclosure also has a
power cable. Is this another USB cable? Is it plugged into a USB port or
a power adapter? Many USB power adapters can deliver more current.

Kind regards,

--
Ash Joubert (they/them) <ash@transient.nz>
Director / Game Developer
Transient Software Limited <https://transient.nz/>
New Zealand

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2024-10-04 20:43, Will Mengarini wrote:

Now I realize that there may be an error LED blinking on the HDD.

What is the model of the HDD? What is its documented peak power draw?

Kind regards,

--
Ash Joubert (they/them) <ash@transient.nz>
Director / Game Developer
Transient Software Limited <https://transient.nz/>
New Zealand

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* Ash Joubert <ash@transient.nz> [24-10/05=Sat 15:56 +1300]:

On 2024-10-04 20:19, Will Mengarini wrote:

- Do you see anything in "blkid" when the USB enclosure is attached?

Nothing changes.

- Do you see anything in "journalctl -f" when you plug in the USB enclosure?

No output when I unplug it and replug it.

The HDD may not be able to draw enough power. Plain USB A ports can only deliver 2.5W (500mA at 5V). You mentioned that the enclosure also has a
power cable. Is this another USB cable? Is it plugged into a USB port or a power adapter? Many USB power adapters can deliver more current.

Power is coming from a transformer. The box says that
the transformer delivers five watts/12 watts of power.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* Ash Joubert <ash@transient.nz> [24-10/05=Sat 16:02 +1300]:

On 2024-10-04 20:43, Will Mengarini wrote:

Now I realize that there may be an error LED blinking on the HDD.

That may not have been an error LED; it's an LED on
the PCB of the enclosure, and it may be intended
to blink red whenever the disk is being accessed.

What is the model of the HDD? What is its documented peak power draw?

The drive is a Seagate 3.5 inch 500 GB drive. It's now screwed into
the enclosure, so pulling it out to look for a model number would be
a little risky because the thing could be dropped.

The smallest 3.5" HDD (3 TB) for which I found official Seagate
documentation said that it used 8 watts while operating.

https://storedbits.com says a 7200 RPM hard drive would normally consume
20-25W for 5-10 seconds during startup. It will then idle at around
6-8 watts. The average power consumption during read/write tasks
will be around 8-12 watts, and the maximum can go up to 16 watts.

I would be surprised if the transformer for the enclosure
did not deliver sufficient power for the type of
drive that the enclosure is intended to enclose.

I have tried multiple USB jacks on the computer, of course.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

* Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [24-10/05=Sat 10:48 +0700]:

On 04/10/2024 14:19, Will Mengarini wrote:

* Ash Joubert [24-10/04=Fri 16:38 +1300]:

- Do you see anything in "journalctl -f" when you plug in the USB enclosure?

No output when I unplug it and replug it.

Do you start "journalctl -f" as root (eg sudo)? It is rather
strange that nothing is logged at all. I would expect
at least some errors. It may be some issue with cables.

Yes, I am doing that as root. It has never shown any output for
the drive and enclosure in question, but it responds immediately
when I plug in a flash drive that has Debian netinst on it.

Have you tried other USB ports? USB3/USB2,
some ports may provide higher current.

Yes, several.

Save output of of the following command to files when the enclosure is disconnected and connected and compare results

lsusb -vt | tee /tmp/disconnected.txt
lsusb -vt | tee /tmp/port1.txt

There is no difference.

Try to connect the enclosure without the disk. It may appear
in lsusb output and may generate some journalctl logs.

That's a clever idea, but it will be a while before I
can carefully unscrew the disk from the enclosure to try
it. First I need to try to restore from older backups.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* Hans <hans.ullrich@loop.de> [24-10/04=Fri 10:24 +0200]:

Am Freitag, 4. Oktober 2024, 04:57:19 CEST schrieb Will Mengarini:

I have a freshly installed Debian stable and I'm trying to read an
HDD from a previous machine. I put it into a disk enclosure that
connects to the new machine by USB and powered everything up, but the
stable Debian doesn't see the new disk that is connected by USB. Is
there some driver or package that I need to install to make this work?

You say, it is connected by USB. You then
should see the device with the command

lsusb

when the usb-connector is plugged in. However,
I have to be precise: You see the controller of
the case you put your HDD in, not the HDD itself!

But, if you can see it, first step is done.

I cannot see it.

For further examinations I suggest, to do the following commmand as root

tail -f /var/log/syslog

in console and then watch its output by plugging in and plugging off the USB case with the built in HDD.

A freshly installed Debian stable does not
have /var/log/{syslog,messages}, but I have
been using `journalctl -f` for the same thing.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* basti <mailinglist@unix-solution.de> [24-10/04=Fri 13:54 +0200]:

Am 04.10.24 um 04:57 schrieb Will Mengarini:

I have a freshly installed Debian stable and I'm trying to read an
HDD from a previous machine. I put it into a disk enclosure that
connects to the new machine by USB and powered everything up, but the
stable Debian doesn't see the new disk that is connected by USB. Is
there some driver or package that I need to install to make this work?

Can you see the enclosure in the output of `lsusb`?

No.

What is the output of `lsblk`?

It shows my SSD but nothing else.

What's the filesystem you expect to see? If there's a RAID
or LVM on that device, then you should start this first.

There's no RAID. I was not sure that I could
boot from an LVM partition, so I did not use LVM.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* Will Mengarini <seldon@eskimo.com> [24-10/04=Fri 20:10 -0700]:

* Ash Joubert <ash@transient.nz> [24-10/05=Sat 15:56 +1300]:

On 2024-10-04 20:19, Will Mengarini wrote:

- Do you see anything in "blkid" when the USB enclosure is attached?

Nothing changes.

- Do you see anything in "journalctl -f" when you plug in the USB enclosure?

No output when I unplug it and replug it.

The HDD may not be able to draw enough power. Plain USB A ports can only
deliver 2.5W (500mA at 5V). You mentioned that the enclosure also has a
power cable. Is this another USB cable? Is it plugged into a USB port or a >> power adapter? Many USB power adapters can deliver more current.

Power is coming from a transformer. The box says that the transformer delivers five watts/12 watts [I meant volts, of course] of power.

When I unplugged the transformer just now to store it, I
discovered that on the back it is labeled to output 12 volts
and 2.0 amps. That is 24 watts, which might not be enough to
spin up some hard drives. I'm not sure; it seems borderline.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [24-10/05=Sat 12:51 +0700]:

On 05/10/2024 11:15, Will Mengarini wrote:

* Max Nikulin [24-10/05=Sat 10:48 +0700]:

Try to connect the enclosure without the disk. It may appear
in lsusb output and may generate some journalctl logs.

That's a clever idea, but it will be a while before I
can carefully unscrew the disk from the enclosure to try
it. First I need to try to restore from older backups.

I have no idea what steps you may try without disassembling the enclosure. Perhaps the issue is either data or power connectors inside.

HDD should generate specific noise when spinning up, then there should be something like clanks due to heads unloading/loading. Do you hear it?

No, I heard nothing, but I might not have heard the spin-up
noise because the enclosure needed to be placed behind the
desktop tower because its cables were so short. As for the noise
of the heads, there was none, probably because the operating
system never saw the disk so never tried to read the disk.

However, I just achieved a breakthrough by discovering an
astonishing cause to the problem. I will post this as a
reply (labeled "maybe solved") to to my original post.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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For 3,5" HDD you need an usb-case with extra power. The standard usb power is not enough for this needed power.


Most usp ports deliver about 50-70mA at 5V, so you must use a case with an external power supply.

This is also needed for eSATA ports.

Hans

The smallest 3.5" HDD (3 TB) for which I found official Seagate
documentation said that it used 8 watts while operating.

https://storedbits.com says a 7200 RPM hard drive would normally consume 20-25W for 5-10 seconds during startup. It will then idle at around
6-8 watts. The average power consumption during read/write tasks
will be around 8-12 watts, and the maximum can go up to 16 watts.

I would be surprised if the transformer for the enclosure
did not deliver sufficient power for the type of
drive that the enclosure is intended to enclose.

I have tried multiple USB jacks on the computer, of course.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

* Will Mengarini <seldon@eskimo.com> [24-10/03=Thu 19:57 -0700]:

I have a freshly installed Debian stable and I'm trying to read an
HDD from a previous machine. I put it into a disk enclosure that
connects to the new machine by USB and powered everything up, but the
stable Debian doesn't see the new disk that is connected by USB.

There were several suggestions that the enclosure may not have
been receiving enough power, and I think that it was not, although
I didn't realize this until I had put the enclosure away and
started to attempt restoring from an old backup on an external HDD.

Initially that HDD (my only recent backup) could not be mounted
because of continuous errors. However, prompted by the discussions in
here about power, I tried a different power strip, and noticed that
on that power strip there was a transformer for a pair of speakers
that had worked correctly until the machine I was backing up from
had crashed, but now did not seem to be working correctly because
their power LED was always off. That seemed strange, so I removed
the transformer for that pair of speakers since they didn't work
anyway, and suddenly the hard disk drive from which I was restoring
was able to be mounted. I am using rsync to restore from it now.

The power strips were chained, so it seems plausible that a failed
pair of speakers connected to one power strip was drawing enough power
although doing nothing that it was preventing the hard disk drive on a different power strip from receiving enough power to spin up properly.
Once the transformer for the speakers was unplugged, the hard disk
drive was able to spin up and I was able to restore from backups.

The reason this is only "maybe" solved is that I haven't yet gone
back to the hard disk enclosure that was the original subject of
this thread. Instead I'm restoring from a different external hard
disk drive which also was failing until the transformer for the
speakers was removed. I conjecture that eventually I will be able
to read from the hard disk drive enclosure containing the latest
data, but first I will finish my current restoration from backup.

This is a wild war story. I would not have expected a failing pair
of speakers to be able to draw enough power to prevent a disk
drive on a chained power strip from receiving enough power. It
may actually be the case that what really mattered was that those
speakers were plugged in to the rear panel of the desktop computer
that I was setting up, and perhaps they were drawing too much power
from there. I cannot think of an easy way to test that hypothesis
without endangering this hardware, which I do not want to do.

A hmm-worthy observation is that in order to get this new computer to
work I needed to plug it into an old LCD monitor (Viewsonic VX2025wm)
that has its own built-in speakers. I wonder whether there is some
operating system bug that can cause trouble when external speakers are
plugged into a computer that also has speakers built into the monitor.

Many thanks to everybody who participated
in this thread and gave me suggestions.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

https://storedbits.com says a 7200 RPM hard drive would normally consume
20-25W for 5-10 seconds during startup. It will then idle at around
6-8 watts. The average power consumption during read/write tasks
will be around 8-12 watts, and the maximum can go up to 16 watts.

I would be surprised if the transformer for the enclosure
did not deliver sufficient power for the type of
drive that the enclosure is intended to enclose.

* Hans <hans.ullrich@loop.de> [24-10/05=Sat 09:20 +0200]:

For a 3,5" HDD you need a USB case with extra power. The
standard USB power is not enough for this needed power.

Most USB ports deliver about 50-70mA at 5V, so you
must use a case with an external power supply.

This is also needed for eSATA ports.

This case does have an external power supply.

However, I think there *was* a problem related to inadequate power,
and I just posted a reply to my original post detailing how I
think I have solved the problem. Thank you for all of your help.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

When I unplugged the transformer just now to store it, I
discovered that on the back it is labeled to output 12 volts
and 2.0 amps. That is 24 watts, which might not be enough to
spin up some hard drives. I'm not sure; it seems borderline.

It should be OK and in any case it should be easy to diagnose simply by listening to the drive.


Stefan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 23:44:01 -0700
Will Mengarini <seldon@eskimo.com> wrote:

As for the noise
of the heads, there was none, probably because the operating
system never saw the disk so never tried to read the disk.

There is always head movement when a drive first spins up. Part of
shutting a drive down is moving the heads to a safe zone such that if
any vibration causes the heads to hit the platter it won't damage any
surface with data on it. Part of spinning up is moving the heads back
to the middle of the drive so that the first access will be quicker.

However, head movement isn't always audible. 3½" and 5¼" drives aren't usually audible, although I've had a few very noisy 5¼ drives. And of
course SSDs are utterly silent.

--
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 2024-10-05 at 08:40 -0600, Charles Curley wrote:

However, head movement isn't always audible. 3½" and 5¼" drives aren't usually audible, although I've had a few very noisy 5¼ drives. And of
course SSDs are utterly silent.

I wonder how ancient drives you are using? Have there even been any
mainstream 5¼ inch form factor HDDs manufactured since the Quantum
Bigfoot  in the 1990s? I remember those drives being quite loud indeed.


<html><head><style>pre,code,address {
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</style></head><body><div>On Sat, 2024-10-05 at 08:40 -0600, Charles Curley wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:2px #729fcf solid;padding-left:1ex"><pre>However, head movement isn't always audible. 3½" and 5¼"
drives aren't</pre><pre>usually audible, although I've had a few very noisy 5¼ drives. And of</pre><pre>course SSDs are utterly silent.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I wonder how ancient drives you are using? Have there even been any mainstream
5¼ inch form factor HDDs manufactured since the Quantum Bigfoot &nbsp;in the 1990s? I remember those drives being quite loud indeed.</div><div><br></div><div><span></span></div></body></html>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> [24-10/06=Sun 11:20 +0300]:

On Sat, 2024-10-05 at 08:40 -0600, Charles Curley wrote:

However, head movement isn't always audible. 3�" and 5�" drives aren't
usually audible, although I've had a few very noisy 5� drives. And of
course SSDs are utterly silent.

I wonder how ancient drives you are using? Have there even been any mainstream 5� inch form factor HDDs manufactured since the Quantum
Bigfoot in the 1990s? I remember those drives being quite loud indeed.

This is a 3.5 inch drive from a desktop tower that was built in 2007.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)