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  • Updating from Debian 9.13 to 12.7

    From Richard Owlett@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 12 15:30:01 2024
    It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new Debian to
    a fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a particular session.

    I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions.

    1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
    top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check
    sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my new
    system.

    2. Is there some way to have the contents of
    /home/richard/.config/Desktop be displayed in the current pattern?
    Secondarily, is it possible to have new additions snap to a suitably
    coarse grid?

    TIA

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  • From Andrew M.A. Cater@21:1/5 to Richard Owlett on Sun Oct 13 12:00:02 2024
    On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 08:27:55AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
    It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new Debian to a fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a particular session.

    I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions.

    1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
    top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check
    sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my new
    system.


    Which desktop on Debian 9?

    Just a preferred arrangement? Write down what the arrangement is and reimplement it for yourself once you've installed 12?

    Which desktop environment do you plan to install on Debian 12?

    2. Is there some way to have the contents of
    /home/richard/.config/Desktop be displayed in the current pattern?
    Secondarily, is it possible to have new additions snap to a suitably
    coarse grid?


    I don't know: I have no idea what is in this file: that's local configuration

    How coarse is coarse? Does this have any relation to the ideal method of measuring the length of a piece of string and quantifying the resultant value?

    MORE INFORMATION NEEDED PLEASE - I can't look over your shoulder and
    see exactly what you see. If you have preferred customisations, you may
    need to reproduce them yourself.

    I'm unsure of your methodology here: given the amount of change since 9.13
    and the amount of updates, for myself I'd just install a clean version of Debian 12 and hae done with it.

    All best, as ever,

    Andy
    (amacater@debian.org)
    I'd just install a nice fresh version of Debian 12
    TIA


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  • From Richard Owlett@21:1/5 to Andrew M.A. Cater on Sun Oct 13 13:20:01 2024
    On 10/13/2024 04:57 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
    On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 08:27:55AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
    It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new Debian to a
    fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a
    particular session.

    I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions.

    1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
    top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check
    sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my new
    system.


    Which desktop on Debian 9?

    MATE


    Just a preferred arrangement? Write down what the arrangement is and reimplement it for yourself once you've installed 12?

    Essentially what I'm doing ;}
    It's inefficient.
    Debian "knows" and can reproduce icons on an apparently arbitrary number
    if panels. The information is stored somewhere.
    Where?


    Which desktop environment do you plan to install on Debian 12?

    I have installed MATE on Debian n12.


    2. Is there some way to have the contents of
    /home/richard/.config/Desktop be displayed in the current pattern?
    Secondarily, is it possible to have new additions snap to a suitably
    coarse grid?


    I don't know: I have no idea what is in this file: that's local configuration >
    How coarse is coarse? Does this have any relation to the ideal method of measuring the length of a piece of string and quantifying the resultant value?

    The system has a "default" icon size and if you only manually place
    files in the Desktop folder what is visually displayed is a regular grid
    on non-overlapping icons.

    At a minimum I want is when manual moving icons they snap to a location
    on THAT grid spacing.
    What actually happens is they are placed at the *precise* pixel location
    you "chose" :{


    MORE INFORMATION NEEDED PLEASE - I can't look over your shoulder and
    see exactly what you see. If you have preferred customisations, you may
    need to reproduce them yourself.

    I'm unsure of your methodology here: given the amount of change since 9.13 and the amount of updates, for myself I'd just install a clean version of Debian 12 and hae done with it.

    I have installed a fully functional Debian 12.
    I want to reproduce the visual environment I've developed over the years.


    All best, as ever,

    Andy
    (amacater@debian.org)
    I'd just install a nice fresh version of Debian 12
    TIA




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  • From Joe@21:1/5 to Richard Owlett on Sun Oct 13 19:40:01 2024
    On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 06:11:17 -0500
    Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:


    I want to reproduce the visual environment I've developed over the
    years.


    In other words, you face the same choice that we all do when it's time
    to leave an old faithful installation behind: upgrade or clean install.

    While most sets of configurations for most system or application
    software are generally forward-compatible most of the time, this isn't something that can be guaranteed.

    You could backup the configuration directories both system-wide and
    personal, and then just dump them into place in the new Debian. Quite a
    lot of things will work, but quite a lot won't, and they will be a
    devil to fix.

    What you need is what Microsoft provided during the many years when
    Windows was not version-upgradable, a migration tool. But MS could do
    this because unmodified Windows installations were pretty much
    identical, so it was practical to build a tool to do the whole thing. Obviously, any used-installed applications were the responsibility of
    the user to reinstall and customise.

    Linux is not monolithic, and any migration tool would be for one
    application, all applications would need their own migration tool. I
    have never looked into such things, but if I had to guess, I'd say
    there are not many such tools in existence. Since Debian makes its own configurations to many applications and system software, particularly
    in terms of file location, I'd also guess that many such tools would not
    apply to Debian installations very well.

    So I've always upgraded servers where possible (e.g. not from 32 to 64
    bits) and I've installed workstations clean. It's a pain, but I really
    don't think there are many shortcuts. You are obviously looking for configuration files which could just be moved from one Debian version to another without problems, maybe adding a few tweaks for new functions,
    or at least have easily-extractable details such as icon locations. I
    very much suspect that if this were the case, people would have built
    migration scripts and publicised them. If the Mate forums, of which I'm
    sure at least one must exist, doesn't know about anything like this,
    there probably isn't one.

    I suggest you need to either grit your teeth and manually tweak a clean installation, or else also grit your teeth, do a full backup, make a
    clean installation as a fallback and then upgrade your existing
    installation. Going three versions is going to be slow and painful, but
    it may be less trouble than the full manual alternative.

    --
    Joe

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  • From Richard Owlett@21:1/5 to Joe on Mon Oct 14 13:00:01 2024
    On 10/13/2024 12:29 PM, Joe wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 06:11:17 -0500
    Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:


    I want to reproduce the visual environment I've developed over the
    years.


    In other words, you face the same choice that we all do when it's time
    to leave an old faithful installation behind: upgrade or clean install.
    [SNIP ~2kb OT statement that *applications* have changed]

    Joe did not carefully read my clarification requested by Andrew.

    I want Debian 12 with MATE Desktop at cold boot to visually display the
    same arrangement of icons as Debian 9 with MATE Desktop at cold boot.

    Of course applications have changed over the years.
    That is essentially the *ONLY* reason I no longer run Debian 6 ;}

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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Richard Owlett on Mon Oct 14 13:50:01 2024
    On Oct 13, 2024, Richard Owlett wrote:
    On 10/13/2024 04:57 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
    On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 08:27:55AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
    It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new Debian to a fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a particular session.

    I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions.

    1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
    top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check
    sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my new
    system.


    Which desktop on Debian 9?

    MATE


    Just a preferred arrangement? Write down what the arrangement is and reimplement it for yourself once you've installed 12?

    Essentially what I'm doing ;}
    It's inefficient.
    Debian "knows" and can reproduce icons on an apparently arbitrary
    number if panels. The information is stored somewhere.
    Where?

    By "Panel", you mean the actual panel/taskbar, right?

    That's *PROBABLY* buried somewhere in gtk settings somewhere
    (necessitating, oh what is it ... gconf-editor ... to dump out?)

    Granted, Debian 9-12 might represent sufficient time such that changes
    to GTK mean you cannot simply dump from one and load to the other.

    [...]

    The system has a "default" icon size and if you only manually place
    files in the Desktop folder what is visually displayed is a regular
    grid on non-overlapping icons.

    At a minimum I want is when manual moving icons they snap to a location on THAT grid spacing.
    What actually happens is they are placed at the *precise* pixel
    location you "chose" :{

    As I recall (read: poorly ;) ); this is an option in the desktop's
    context menu to "snap to grid".

    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

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  • From Joe@21:1/5 to Richard Owlett on Mon Oct 14 15:00:01 2024
    On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 05:54:06 -0500
    Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:

    On 10/13/2024 12:29 PM, Joe wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 06:11:17 -0500
    Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:


    I want to reproduce the visual environment I've developed over the
    years.


    In other words, you face the same choice that we all do when it's
    time to leave an old faithful installation behind: upgrade or clean install.
    [SNIP ~2kb OT statement that *applications* have changed]

    Joe did not carefully read my clarification requested by Andrew.

    I want Debian 12 with MATE Desktop at cold boot to visually display
    the same arrangement of icons as Debian 9 with MATE Desktop at cold
    boot.

    Then you write a script to analyse the files responsible and extract
    the data, and another to import them into the new system, assuming it
    has a similar configuration format.

    Job done.

    I was suggesting why it was unlikely you will find a ready-made
    solution to your problem

    --
    Joe

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  • From Richard Owlett@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Tue Oct 15 12:30:01 2024
    On 10/14/2024 06:43 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On Oct 13, 2024, Richard Owlett wrote:
    On 10/13/2024 04:57 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
    On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 08:27:55AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
    It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new Debian to a >>>> fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a
    particular session.

    I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions. >>>>
    1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
    top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check >>>> sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my new >>>> system.


    Which desktop on Debian 9?

    MATE


    Just a preferred arrangement? Write down what the arrangement is and
    reimplement it for yourself once you've installed 12?

    Essentially what I'm doing ;}
    It's inefficient.
    Debian "knows" and can reproduce icons on an apparently arbitrary
    number if panels. The information is stored somewhere.
    Where?

    By "Panel", you mean the actual panel/taskbar, right?

    Correct.


    That's *PROBABLY* buried somewhere in gtk settings somewhere
    (necessitating, oh what is it ... gconf-editor ... to dump out?)

    Granted, Debian 9-12 might represent sufficient time such that changes
    to GTK mean you cannot simply dump from one and load to the other.

    Doing a search for "GConf configuration database" [w/o quotes] gives
    hits which look relevant. Which icons are on my panels are a secondary
    problem.


    [...]

    The system has a "default" icon size and if you only manually place
    files in the Desktop folder what is visually displayed is a regular
    grid on non-overlapping icons.

    At a minimum I want is when manual moving icons they snap to a location on >> THAT grid spacing.
    What actually happens is they are placed at the *precise* pixel
    location you "chose" :{

    As I recall (read: poorly ;) ); this is an option in the desktop's
    context menu to "snap to grid".


    I re-examined the entries in the sub-menus of System heading.
    Found nothing.

    However, reading the hits of my web search may give ideas of keywords
    for a search on this more important issue.

    Thanks

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  • From Richard Owlett@21:1/5 to Richard Owlett on Tue Oct 15 17:10:01 2024
    On 10/15/2024 05:25 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
    On 10/14/2024 06:43 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On Oct 13, 2024, Richard Owlett wrote:
    On 10/13/2024 04:57 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
    On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 08:27:55AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
    It has been my habit since days of Squeeze to install the new
    Debian to a
    fresh fresh partition and then use Grub to chose which version for a >>>>> particular session.

    I have two what might loosely be described as configuration questions. >>>>>
    1. I have 2 Panels of icons for launching tools/applications at the
         top of my display. Are they inventoried anywhere? I want a "check
         sheet" to verify I effectively have the same flexibility on my >>>>> new
         system.


    Which desktop on Debian 9?

    MATE


    Just a preferred arrangement? Write down what the arrangement is and
    reimplement it for yourself once you've installed 12?

    Essentially what I'm doing ;}
    It's inefficient.
    Debian "knows" and can reproduce icons on an apparently arbitrary
    number if panels. The information is stored somewhere.
    Where?

    By "Panel", you mean the actual panel/taskbar, right?

    Correct.


    That's *PROBABLY* buried somewhere in gtk settings somewhere
    (necessitating, oh what is it ... gconf-editor ... to dump out?)

    Granted, Debian 9-12 might represent sufficient time such that changes
    to GTK mean you cannot simply dump from one and load to the other.

    Doing a search for "GConf configuration database" [w/o quotes] gives
    hits which look relevant. Which icons are on my panels are a secondary problem.


    [...]

    The system has a "default" icon size and if you only manually place
    files in the Desktop folder what is visually displayed is a regular
    grid on non-overlapping icons.

    At a minimum I want is when manual moving icons they snap to a
    location on
    THAT grid spacing.
    What actually happens is they are placed at the *precise* pixel
    location you "chose" :{

    As I recall (read: poorly ;) ); this is an option in the desktop's
    context menu to "snap to grid".


    I re-examined the entries in the sub-menus of System heading.
    Found nothing.

    However, reading the hits of my web search may give ideas of keywords
    for a search on this more important issue.

    Thanks


    Wandering a chain of links starting at https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/
    leads me to _suspect_ the configuration information I seek is in /home/richard/.config/dconf/user .

    That file changes whenever an icon is moved on a panel *OR* an icon is
    moved on the Desktop.

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  • From Mike Kupfer@21:1/5 to Richard Owlett on Tue Oct 15 19:10:01 2024
    Richard Owlett wrote:

    Wandering a chain of links starting at https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/
    leads me to _suspect_ the configuration information I seek is in /home/richard/.config/dconf/user .

    You can dump the settings that are in dconf with

    gsettings list-recursively

    and redirecting the output to a file. You could then compare the text
    output from your two installs to home in on what needs changing in the
    new install. (You might want to sort the 2 text files before comparing
    them.) I'd expect a certain amount of trial-and-error with this
    approach (e.g., the diff output might flag changes that don't actually
    matter for you). But I've used it once or twice on my home desktop, and
    it did help give direction to my tweaking.

    hth,
    mike

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  • From tomas@tuxteam.de@21:1/5 to Mike Kupfer on Tue Oct 15 20:30:01 2024
    On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 10:06:42AM -0700, Mike Kupfer wrote:
    Richard Owlett wrote:

    Wandering a chain of links starting at https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/
    leads me to _suspect_ the configuration information I seek is in /home/richard/.config/dconf/user .

    You can dump the settings that are in dconf with

    gsettings list-recursively

    Besides, it might be a bad idea to change the file while the desktop environment is "running". ISTR that the settings are kept by some
    daemon and the file is "just" the persistence (daemon writes when
    finished and reads at start).

    But I might be wrong, as with most things Desktop.

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From Mike Kupfer@21:1/5 to tomas@tuxteam.de on Wed Oct 16 00:20:01 2024
    <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

    Richard Owlett wrote:

    Wandering a chain of links starting at https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/ leads me to _suspect_ the configuration information I seek is in /home/richard/.config/dconf/user .
    [...]
    Besides, it might be a bad idea to change the file while the desktop environment is "running". ISTR that the settings are kept by some
    daemon and the file is "just" the persistence (daemon writes when
    finished and reads at start).

    Right, I would definitely not try to edit the dconf/user file. Options
    for making changes are

    - MATE Control Center (top-level GUI for MATE configuration)
    - dconf-editor (GUI; not as user-friendly as Control Center, but gives
    you direct access to all the settings)
    - dconf (command-line)

    mike

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  • From tomas@tuxteam.de@21:1/5 to Mike Kupfer on Wed Oct 16 06:30:01 2024
    On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 03:12:30PM -0700, Mike Kupfer wrote:
    <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

    Richard Owlett wrote:

    Wandering a chain of links starting at https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/ leads me to _suspect_ the configuration information I seek is in /home/richard/.config/dconf/user .
    [...]
    Besides, it might be a bad idea to change the file while the desktop environment is "running" [...]

    Right, I would definitely not try to edit the dconf/user file. Options
    for making changes are

    Oh, I have done that, but always when the DE wasn't "looking". I.e. take
    down X, boot in rescue mode or just mount the media from another running system.

    Cheers
    --
    t

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