I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that
seems to be only available as a PDF document [ https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf
].

I have a combination of vision and perception problems which make using
a PDF viewer impractical. pdf2txt can convert it to HTML. It's still not
easily usable for me but examining the produced file and reading various pdfminer.six web pages suggest possible solution.

[ https://github.com/pdfminer/pdfminer.six/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md [
points readers to a chat group at gitter [
https://gitter.im/pdfminer-six/Lobby ]. That comes up blank page in
current SeaMonkey configured for my needs..

I'm looking for a mailing list or USENET forum where my questions would
be On Topic.

Suggestions?
TIA

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Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:

I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that
seems to be only available as a PDF document [ https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf ].

No direct answers from me, I'm afraid but some suggestions.

(1) Although I've only found the document as a PDF, a page it is
linked from <https://www.fns.usda.gov/research/cnpp/usda-food-plans>
gives an email address FNS.FoodPlans@usda.gov for "technical
inquiries". I'd guess your questions fall under that description, and
the US gov is fairly good on accessibility issues, so you might be able
to resolve your issue there.

I have a combination of vision and perception problems which make
using a PDF viewer impractical. pdf2txt can convert it to HTML. It's
still not easily usable for me but examining the produced file and
reading various pdfminer.six web pages suggest possible solution.

[ https://github.com/pdfminer/pdfminer.six/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
[ points readers to a chat group at gitter [ https://gitter.im/pdfminer-six/Lobby ]. That comes up blank page in
current SeaMonkey configured for my needs..

(2) The chat group comes up fine for me in FF 128.4.0esr (64-bit) once I
enable javascript. It uses the element framework, which may give you
some hints as to how you might access it.

I'm looking for a mailing list or USENET forum where my questions
would be On Topic.

(3) Presumably as well as the github site, you've also found its
documentation at https://pdfminersix.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ Maybe
that will answer some questions?

Suggestions?
TIA

(4) It seems Pieter Marsman (pietermarsman) is active on gitter and may
be the best developer to contact for further information, but I've no
idea how :(

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wed 30 Oct 2024 at 04:53:27 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that
seems to be only available as a PDF document [ https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf
].

Is this actually true? The document itself contains on page 2:

"Persons using assistive technology should be able to access
information in this report. Persons with disabilities who require
alternative means of communication for program information (e.g.,
Braille, large print, audiotape, American Sign Language, etc.)
should contact the responsible Agency or USDA’s TARGET Center at
(202) 720-2600 (voice and TTY) or contact USDA through the Federal
Relay Service at (800) 877-8339. Additionally, program information
may be made available in languages other than English."

Cheers,
David.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

On Wed 30 Oct 2024 at 04:53:27 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that
seems to be only available as a PDF document
[ https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf ].

Is this actually true? The document itself contains on page 2:

"Persons using assistive technology should be able to access
information in this report. Persons with disabilities who require
alternative means of communication for program information (e.g.,
Braille, large print, audiotape, American Sign Language, etc.)
should contact the responsible Agency or USDA’s TARGET Center at
(202) 720-2600 (voice and TTY) or contact USDA through the Federal
Relay Service at (800) 877-8339. Additionally, program information
may be made available in languages other than English."

I suppose Richard, and others' problem may be that if they can't read
the PDF they can't read the instructions for where to get help? The
help should be outside the document.

But at least you were able to point it out to him :)

Cheers,
David.

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On Wed 30 Oct 2024 at 17:50:27 (+0000), debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:

David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

On Wed 30 Oct 2024 at 04:53:27 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that seems to be only available as a PDF document
[ https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf ].

Is this actually true? The document itself contains on page 2:

"Persons using assistive technology should be able to access
information in this report. Persons with disabilities who require
alternative means of communication for program information (e.g.,
Braille, large print, audiotape, American Sign Language, etc.)
should contact the responsible Agency or USDA’s TARGET Center at
(202) 720-2600 (voice and TTY) or contact USDA through the Federal
Relay Service at (800) 877-8339. Additionally, program information
may be made available in languages other than English."

I suppose Richard, and others' problem may be that if they can't read
the PDF they can't read the instructions for where to get help? The
help should be outside the document.

It is: in the web page you quoted, there's an accessibility link near
the bottom that leads to mechanisms for improving accessibility if you
think it's inadequate. (Of course, we don't know how, in the first
place, the OP came upon this document last June.)

Or do you mean outside the internet—our local library is a good source
for so much information like this, and they distribute publications
from the local university extension department, and from city, county,
state and federal sources, particularly for non-internet people.

The Thrifty Food Plan came up on this list earlier in the year:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/06/msg00690.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/06/msg00711.html

Cheers,
David.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 10/30/24 10:12 AM, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:

I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that
seems to be only available as a PDF document [
https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf >> ].

No direct answers from me, I'm afraid but some suggestions.

(1) Although I've only found the document as a PDF, a page it is
linked from <https://www.fns.usda.gov/research/cnpp/usda-food-plans>
gives an email address FNS.FoodPlans@usda.gov for "technical
inquiries". I'd guess your questions fall under that description, and
the US gov is fairly good on accessibility issues, so you might be able
to resolve your issue there.

I hadn't been to that page recently. I had taken "technical inquiries"
to refer to nutritional issues. Having recently explored "PDF to text"
tools, I can comment on format changes that would improve things. At the
same time I can ask how to order a printed copy.

I have a combination of vision and perception problems which make
using a PDF viewer impractical. pdf2txt can convert it to HTML. It's
still not easily usable for me but examining the produced file and
reading various pdfminer.six web pages suggest possible solution.

[ https://github.com/pdfminer/pdfminer.six/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
[ points readers to a chat group at gitter [
https://gitter.im/pdfminer-six/Lobby ]. That comes up blank page in
current SeaMonkey configured for my needs..

(2) The chat group comes up fine for me in FF 128.4.0esr (64-bit) once I enable javascript. It uses the element framework, which may give you
some hints as to how you might access it.

Debian 12 comes with Firefox 115.14.0esr(64-bit). The site reports it as "unsupported" and recommends switching to Firefox ;/
I've never used chat. I'll see if local library has a compatible
browser. Then I can determine if chat is worth the upgrade hassle.

I'm looking for a mailing list or USENET forum where my questions
would be On Topic.

(3) Presumably as well as the github site, you've also found its documentation at https://pdfminersix.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ Maybe
that will answer some questions?

It didn't. It was last link on page that had led me to gitter.

Suggestions?
TIA

(4) It seems Pieter Marsman (pietermarsman) is active on gitter and may
be the best developer to contact for further information, but I've no
idea how :(

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 10/30/24 10:49 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Wed 30 Oct 2024 at 04:53:27 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that
seems to be only available as a PDF document [ https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf
].

Is this actually true? The document itself contains on page 2:

"Persons using assistive technology should be able to access
information in this report. Persons with disabilities who require
alternative means of communication for program information (e.g.,
Braille, large print, audiotape, American Sign Language, etc.)
should contact the responsible Agency or USDA’s TARGET Center at
(202) 720-2600 (voice and TTY) or contact USDA through the Federal
Relay Service at (800) 877-8339. Additionally, program information
may be made available in languages other than English."

Cheers,
David.

I'll try the FNS.FoodPlans@usda.gov address first.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

* On 2024 31 Oct 06:02 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 10/30/24 10:12 AM, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:

I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that seems to be only available as a PDF document [ https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf
].

No direct answers from me, I'm afraid but some suggestions.

(1) Although I've only found the document as a PDF, a page it is
linked from <https://www.fns.usda.gov/research/cnpp/usda-food-plans>
gives an email address FNS.FoodPlans@usda.gov for "technical
inquiries". I'd guess your questions fall under that description, and
the US gov is fairly good on accessibility issues, so you might be able
to resolve your issue there.

I hadn't been to that page recently. I had taken "technical inquiries" to refer to nutritional issues. Having recently explored "PDF to text" tools, I can comment on format changes that would improve things. At the same time I can ask how to order a printed copy.

I have a combination of vision and perception problems which make
using a PDF viewer impractical. pdf2txt can convert it to HTML. It's still not easily usable for me but examining the produced file and reading various pdfminer.six web pages suggest possible solution.

[ https://github.com/pdfminer/pdfminer.six/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
[ points readers to a chat group at gitter [ https://gitter.im/pdfminer-six/Lobby ]. That comes up blank page in current SeaMonkey configured for my needs..

(2) The chat group comes up fine for me in FF 128.4.0esr (64-bit) once I enable javascript. It uses the element framework, which may give you
some hints as to how you might access it.

Debian 12 comes with Firefox 115.14.0esr(64-bit). The site reports it as "unsupported" and recommends switching to Firefox ;/

Currently, my Debian 12 installations have Firefox 128.3.1esr-1~deb12u1. Aptitude also shows that this version is from the Debian Security team.
You do have security updates enabled, right?

I opened the USDA PDF in your OP with this version of Firefox with zero
issues and can zoom to ridiculous levels and also the opened the links
in the quoted text above just fine.

Keep abreast of updates and a lot of "issues" disappear.

- Nate

--
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 10/31/24 7:46 AM, Nate Bargmann wrote:

* On 2024 31 Oct 06:02 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 10/30/24 10:12 AM, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:

I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that
seems to be only available as a PDF document [
https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf
].

No direct answers from me, I'm afraid but some suggestions.

(1) Although I've only found the document as a PDF, a page it is
linked from <https://www.fns.usda.gov/research/cnpp/usda-food-plans>
gives an email address FNS.FoodPlans@usda.gov for "technical
inquiries". I'd guess your questions fall under that description, and
the US gov is fairly good on accessibility issues, so you might be able
to resolve your issue there.

I hadn't been to that page recently. I had taken "technical inquiries" to
refer to nutritional issues. Having recently explored "PDF to text" tools, I >> can comment on format changes that would improve things. At the same time I >> can ask how to order a printed copy.

I have a combination of vision and perception problems which make
using a PDF viewer impractical. pdf2txt can convert it to HTML. It's
still not easily usable for me but examining the produced file and
reading various pdfminer.six web pages suggest possible solution.

[ https://github.com/pdfminer/pdfminer.six/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md >>>> [ points readers to a chat group at gitter [
https://gitter.im/pdfminer-six/Lobby ]. That comes up blank page in
current SeaMonkey configured for my needs..

(2) The chat group comes up fine for me in FF 128.4.0esr (64-bit) once I >>> enable javascript. It uses the element framework, which may give you
some hints as to how you might access it.

Debian 12 comes with Firefox 115.14.0esr(64-bit). The site reports it as
"unsupported" and recommends switching to Firefox ;/

Currently, my Debian 12 installations have Firefox 128.3.1esr-1~deb12u1. Aptitude also shows that this version is from the Debian Security team.
You do have security updates enabled, right?

I opened the USDA PDF in your OP with this version of Firefox with zero issues and can zoom to ridiculous levels and also the opened the links
in the quoted text above just fine.

Keep abreast of updates and a lot of "issues" disappear.

- Nate

In general <GRIN> I agree with you.
I date back to Netscape {Navigator IIRC}. I continued with SeaMonkey
having found design decisions with Firefox/Thunderbird annoying. I've
used Firefox when desperate to access peculiar sites. Now at 80+ I'm
reasonably set in my ways. YMMV ;}

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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* On 2024 31 Oct 09:07 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 10/31/24 7:46 AM, Nate Bargmann wrote:

* On 2024 31 Oct 06:02 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
Currently, my Debian 12 installations have Firefox 128.3.1esr-1~deb12u1. Aptitude also shows that this version is from the Debian Security team.
You do have security updates enabled, right?

I opened the USDA PDF in your OP with this version of Firefox with zero issues and can zoom to ridiculous levels and also the opened the links
in the quoted text above just fine.

Keep abreast of updates and a lot of "issues" disappear.

- Nate

In general <GRIN> I agree with you.
I date back to Netscape {Navigator IIRC}. I continued with SeaMonkey having found design decisions with Firefox/Thunderbird annoying. I've used Firefox when desperate to access peculiar sites. Now at 80+ I'm reasonably set in my ways. YMMV ;}

I date back to some Quarterdeck thing my first ISP provided way back and
then migrated to Navigator not long after. The UI isn't really all that different as I recall. Regardless, if your installation has the Firefox
115 version then it is not only out of date but is a real security risk.
My /etc/apt/sources.list contains:

deb https://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main contrib non-free non-free-firmware
deb-src https://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main contrib non-free non-free-firmware

This will provide your installation with security updates and the latest Firefox ESR which just received a security update since my last post and
is now at version 128.4.0esr-1~deb12u1.

- Nate

--
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819


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=XISh
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 10/31/24 6:14 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 10/30/24 10:49 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Wed 30 Oct 2024 at 04:53:27 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

I'm attempting to read a USDA document "Thrifty Food Plan,2021" that
seems to be only available as a PDF document [
https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/TFP2021.pdf

].

Is this actually true? The document itself contains on page 2:

  "Persons using assistive technology should be able to access
   information in this report. Persons with disabilities who require
   alternative means of communication for program information (e.g.,
   Braille, large print, audiotape, American Sign Language, etc.)
   should contact the responsible Agency or USDA’s TARGET Center at
   (202) 720-2600 (voice and TTY) or contact USDA through the Federal
   Relay Service at (800) 877-8339. Additionally, program information
   may be made available in languages other than English."

Cheers,
David.

I'll try the FNS.FoodPlans@usda.gov address first.

They are sending me a printed copy. ~25 hr turnaround.
Is that a record for a federal agency?

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