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  • Re: dual boot or windows vm?

    From Joe@21:1/5 to Lee on Mon May 26 20:40:01 2025
    On Mon, 26 May 2025 14:23:04 -0400
    Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote:

    For those of you that still use Windows, do you have a dual boot
    system where you select linux or windows at boot time or do you boot
    into linux and run windows as a vm?

    My wife is trying to decide if she wants to keep windows on her laptop
    or no. Obviously, it's easier not to decide & keep her options open..
    but I don't know if dual boot or running windows in a vm would be
    better, or what the tradeoffs would be.

    Anyone care to say which is the better option, tradeoffs, pitfalls,
    etc?


    It depends on why you want it. I needed Windows on a laptop to run a
    few proprietary applications relating to hardware, for programming PIC microcontrollers and XBee radio boards, also to run my USB
    oscilloscope. Both the scope driver and PIC IDE were available for
    Linux but were very poor and buggy.

    For direct hardware access, I wouldn't even try a VM, as proprietary
    auxiliary software for hardware driving is often not that well written
    and may do naughty things with the PC hardware, bypassing the proper
    Windows API.

    For applications purely within Windows, perhaps a version which can't
    be safely connected directly to the Net, possibly a VM would be more
    useful.

    --
    Joe

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  • From Hans@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 26 21:00:01 2025
    Am Montag, 26. Mai 2025, 20:23:04 CEST schrieb Lee:
    For those of you that still use Windows, do you have a dual boot
    system where you select linux or windows at boot time or do you boot
    into linux and run windows as a vm?

    My wife is trying to decide if she wants to keep windows on her laptop
    or no. Obviously, it's easier not to decide & keep her options open..
    but I don't know if dual boot or running windows in a vm would be
    better, or what the tradeoffs would be.

    Anyone care to say which is the better option, tradeoffs, pitfalls, etc?

    Thanks
    Lee

    My own opinion and experience with other customers:

    1. Most customers are not happy with Windows in a VM. Too slow, too difficult.

    2. Linux in VM (namely virtualbox) also too problematic and mostly slower.

    So, IMHO, best solutions will be, to keep the installed windows, install
    Debian additionally and make it dual boot.

    Thus, you will make your wife happy, you make yourself happy and best of all, if you create personal profiles (one for your wife and one for yourself) you can both use Linux independent of each other without any danger.

    Maybe she will be discover, how much better and comfortabler Debian is
    opposite to Microsoft Windows.

    My experience was, that most customers with dual-boot deleted Windows mostly after 6-12 months after using linux.

    And with dula-boot, you can always revert to any OS you want!

    Best

    Hans

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  • From Peter Ehlert@21:1/5 to ler762@gmail.com on Mon May 26 20:40:01 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    On May 26, 2025 11:23:43 AM Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote:

    For those of you that still use Windows, do you have a dual boot
    system where you select linux or windows at boot time or do you boot
    into linux and run windows as a vm?
    I use dual boot...on a couple machines.
    It's not always simple... UEFI is complicated.

    My wife is trying to decide if she wants to keep windows on her laptop
    or no. Obviously, it's easier not to decide & keep her options open..
    but I don't know if dual boot or running windows in a vm would be
    better, or what the tradeoffs would be.
    Never tried using a VM.

    Anyone care to say which is the better option, tradeoffs, pitfalls, etc?

    Thanks
    Lee


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    <div dir="auto">On May 26, 2025 11:23:43 AM Lee &lt;ler762@gmail.com&gt; wrote:</div>
    <div><br></div>
    <blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
    <div dir="auto">For those of you that still use Windows, do you have a dual boot</div>
    <div dir="auto">system where you select linux or windows at boot time or do you boot</div>
    <div dir="auto">into linux and run windows as a vm?</div></blockquote></div><div dir="auto">I use dual boot...on a couple machines.</div><div dir="auto">It's not always simple... UEFI is complicated.</div><div id="aqm-original" style="color: black;" dir="
    auto"><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;"><div dir="auto"></div>
    <div dir="auto"><br></div>
    <div dir="auto">My wife is trying to decide if she wants to keep windows on her laptop</div>
    <div dir="auto">or no. &nbsp;Obviously, it's easier not to decide &amp; keep her options open..</div>
    <div dir="auto">but I don't know if dual boot or running windows in a vm would be</div>
    <div dir="auto">better, or what the tradeoffs would be.</div></blockquote></div><div dir="auto">Never tried using a VM.</div><div id="aqm-original" style="color: black;" dir="auto"><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex;
    border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;"><div dir="auto"></div> <div dir="auto"><br></div>
    <div dir="auto">Anyone care to say which is the better option, tradeoffs, pitfalls, etc?</div>
    <div dir="auto"><br></div>
    <div dir="auto">Thanks</div>
    <div dir="auto">Lee</div>
    </blockquote>
    </div><div dir="auto"><br></div>
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  • From Charles Curley@21:1/5 to Lee on Mon May 26 21:50:02 2025
    On Mon, 26 May 2025 14:23:04 -0400
    Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote:

    … but I don't know if dual boot or running windows in a vm would be
    better, or what the tradeoffs would be.

    Anyone care to say which is the better option, tradeoffs, pitfalls,
    etc?

    One tradeoff is that with one machine virtual, you can run both OSs simultaneously. Background tasks such as backups, similarly. Dual boot precludes that.

    --
    Does anybody read signatures any more?

    https://charlescurley.com
    https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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  • From Joe@21:1/5 to Lee on Mon May 26 22:20:01 2025
    On Mon, 26 May 2025 15:23:32 -0400
    Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Mon, May 26, 2025 at 2:38 PM Joe wrote:

    On Mon, 26 May 2025 14:23:04 -0400
    Lee wrote:

    For those of you that still use Windows, do you have a dual boot
    system where you select linux or windows at boot time or do you
    boot into linux and run windows as a vm?

    My wife is trying to decide if she wants to keep windows on her
    laptop or no. Obviously, it's easier not to decide & keep her
    options open.. but I don't know if dual boot or running windows
    in a vm would be better, or what the tradeoffs would be.

    Anyone care to say which is the better option, tradeoffs,
    pitfalls, etc?


    It depends on why you want it.

    Not wanting to close out her options? A general fear of missing out?

    I haven't heard a reason for keeping windows other than a general
    concern that she might need it at some point in the future.

    I needed Windows on a laptop to run a
    few proprietary applications relating to hardware, for programming
    PIC microcontrollers and XBee radio boards, also to run my USB oscilloscope. Both the scope driver and PIC IDE were available for
    Linux but were very poor and buggy.

    Well.. most everything on windows is a proprietary application, but I
    don't know of any special hardware she has for the laptop.
    The printer & scanner are network attached, so they should work with
    Debian. Yes??

    Generally yes, what I needed to use would be considered fairly exotic.

    For direct hardware access, I wouldn't even try a VM, as proprietary auxiliary software for hardware driving is often not that well
    written and may do naughty things with the PC hardware, bypassing
    the proper Windows API.

    I don't think direct hardware access is a concern.

    For applications purely within Windows, perhaps a version which
    can't be safely connected directly to the Net,

    Hah! Are you old enough to remember the 2002 "trustworthy computing" initiative .. that was more of a PR operation than actually making
    windows secure?
    As far as I'm concerned, "Microsoft" and "safely connected directly to
    the net" are like oil and water - they don't mix.

    Yes, but many people do it anyway.

    possibly a VM would be more useful.

    or safer? If a VM gets exploited one just deletes the VM and spins up
    a new one - yes?

    Yes, there are several advantages e.g. VMs optimised for particular
    jobs. There may also be snags. With virtualbox, for example, you really
    need guest OS add-ons to get the best linking between host and guest,
    and versions of virtualbox and the add-ons don't always go with the
    particular kernels that Debian chooses to upgrade to. Maybe it's
    different these days, but a few years ago I ran into that.

    I did try virtualbox again a couple of months ago for a specific reason
    which has now gone away, and a kernel upgrade (sid) a few days ago
    killed it. I couldn't be bothered finding out what I needed to do to
    revive it, so I purged it. OK, it should be much less trouble with
    stable than with sid.

    --
    Joe

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  • From David Christensen@21:1/5 to Lee on Tue May 27 03:20:02 2025
    On 5/26/25 11:23, Lee wrote:
    For those of you that still use Windows, do you have a dual boot
    system where you select linux or windows at boot time or do you boot
    into linux and run windows as a vm?

    My wife is trying to decide if she wants to keep windows on her laptop
    or no. Obviously, it's easier not to decide & keep her options open..
    but I don't know if dual boot or running windows in a vm would be
    better, or what the tradeoffs would be.

    Anyone care to say which is the better option, tradeoffs, pitfalls, etc?

    Thanks
    Lee


    Irrespective of dual-boot vs. VM, I expect the following issues will
    require running Windows on the laptop:

    1. Motherboard Windows license -- manufacturers have been putting the
    Windows license into the motherboard for several years now (firmware
    EEPROM?). Windows must be running on the hardware to see the license.

    2. Bundled software (e.g. bloatware) -- everyone loves to hate this
    stuff, but the original buyer pays for it and the manufacturer expects
    it to be there (for updates, technical support, warranty, etc.). The
    bundled software expects to be running on the purchased hardware.

    3. Windows installer -- I have not seen PC manufacturer Windows,
    driver, utility, application, etc., installation media for a very long
    time. The last time I wanted to wipe and reinstall Windows and bundled software on a ~2019 Dell, I used the motherboard firmware Setup utility
    and a fast, unmetered Internet connection.


    I tried dual-boot back in the day. Updating either OS often broke the
    ability to boot. It was a major PITA. Since then, my solution has been
    to install mobile racks in my computers, use one drive per OS instance,
    and to choose what OS to run by powering down, swapping drives, and booting:

    https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/hsb220sat25b

    https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/s25slotr


    For laptops:

    https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/usb3s2sat3cb


    David

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  • From Roy J. Tellason, Sr.@21:1/5 to All on Tue May 27 03:40:01 2025
    On Monday 26 May 2025 09:10:53 pm David Christensen wrote:
    1.  Motherboard Windows license -- manufacturers have been putting the Windows license into the motherboard for several years now (firmware EEPROM?).  Windows must be running on the hardware to see the license.


    Ack!

    I remember well one service call where the poor guy was getting an error messaage that indicaated that this was NOT happening the way it was supposed to. I spent *hours* running specific utilities that were supposed to deal with the issue and re-
    installing etc. only to end up with the same error message all over again.

    I'm really glad not to be doing that sort of thing any more. (Retired. :-)


    --
    Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
    ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
    be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
    -
    Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

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  • From Joe@21:1/5 to David Christensen on Tue May 27 10:20:01 2025
    On Mon, 26 May 2025 18:10:53 -0700
    David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> wrote:

    3. Windows installer -- I have not seen PC manufacturer Windows,
    driver, utility, application, etc., installation media for a very
    long time. The last time I wanted to wipe and reinstall Windows and
    bundled software on a ~2019 Dell, I used the motherboard firmware
    Setup utility and a fast, unmetered Internet connection.

    Windows hasn't been sold on physical media for a long time, I have a
    retail W7 Pro DVD which was probably the last. Since then you download
    images, with no checks or charges at download time. You can then
    install and run for a trial period, so have plenty of time to buy a
    licence if you want to keep it.

    --
    Joe

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