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  • Improving the Web.

    From peter@easthope.ca@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 24 17:10:01 2025
    David & all,

    Ref. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/01/msg00110.html

    From: David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
    Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2023 13:26:54 -0600
    "Debian helps fix the Web." Not a headline I expect ever to see, ...

    Too simplisitic and a Web topic rather than Debian topic. But Debian
    attracts some formal language experts and some programmers.

    A browser can handle more than one language. Firefox
    128.13.0esr(64-bit) opens PDF along with HTML.

    I imagine three stages.
    (1) Identify a formal language improving upon HTML/CSS. Not a new
    idea. I've seen Display PostScript and NeWS discussed. Further
    development necessary.

    (2) Add capability for the language to a browser, parallel to PDF.
    Firefox is an obvious possibility.

    (3) Use the mechanism for documents.

    I wouldn't expect to see initiative from Debian administrators. Some
    Debian users might be interested. Significant progress in my lifetime
    doesn't appear hopeful.

    Regards, ... P.



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  • From Dan Ritter@21:1/5 to peter@easthope.ca on Thu Jul 24 17:40:01 2025
    peter@easthope.ca wrote:
    Ref. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/01/msg00110.html

    From: David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
    Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2023 13:26:54 -0600
    "Debian helps fix the Web." Not a headline I expect ever to see, ...

    Too simplisitic and a Web topic rather than Debian topic. But Debian attracts some formal language experts and some programmers.

    A browser can handle more than one language. Firefox
    128.13.0esr(64-bit) opens PDF along with HTML.

    I imagine three stages.
    (1) Identify a formal language improving upon HTML/CSS. Not a new
    idea. I've seen Display PostScript and NeWS discussed. Further
    development necessary.

    HTML (badly, improperly) defines semantics. <p> is a paragraph.
    <li> is a list item. <div> is a mess, but it's supposed to be a
    division in the text. When you have the semantic representation,
    you can render it to anything you like: text terminals, tiny
    screens, gigantic screens, audio readers.

    PostScript and its encapsulated, reduced and compressed
    successor, PDF, define rendering without being at all concerned
    about semantics. When you have rendering without semantics, you
    cannot do anything guaranteed useful with it except to render it
    to a device of approximately the target characteristics.

    Trying to replicate paper documents anywhere except in the
    narrow scope of trying to produce a paper docunent is a bad
    move.

    -dsr-

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  • From Joe@21:1/5 to peter@easthope.ca on Thu Jul 24 17:50:01 2025
    On 24 Jul 2025 07:46:29 -0700
    peter@easthope.ca wrote:

    David & all,

    Ref. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/01/msg00110.html

    From: David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
    Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2023 13:26:54 -0600
    "Debian helps fix the Web." Not a headline I expect ever to see,
    ...

    Too simplisitic and a Web topic rather than Debian topic. But Debian attracts some formal language experts and some programmers.

    A browser can handle more than one language. Firefox
    128.13.0esr(64-bit) opens PDF along with HTML.


    The idiots already do whatever they want to do with JavaScript, AJAX
    etc. Probably the large majority of web documents are already dependent
    on JS and don't work acceptably without it. All large browsers can run
    it.

    The web started as a means of displaying legible and meaningful content
    on any conceivable computer display device, including Braille
    terminals. It has evolved into a multimedia dog's breakfast, and that's
    how web designers like it. Messages like 'please upgrade your browser
    to see this page properly' seem to be perfectly acceptable to most
    users. I can't see any attempt to introduce discipline to the web having
    much support.

    --
    Joe

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  • From peter@easthope.ca@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 24 18:20:01 2025
    From: Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org>
    Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 11:17:43 -0400
    HTML (badly, improperly) defines semantics. ...

    You know more about formal languages than I do.

    Trying to replicate paper documents anywhere except in the
    narrow scope of trying to produce a paper docunent is a bad
    move.

    Acknowledged. I didn't mean to suggest replacing HTML/CSS with
    PostScript or PDF. I meant "document" in a general sense; an entity
    containing information meaningful to a human.

    I'm not aware of a good replacement for HTML/CSS. It's an open
    question. Anything proposed now is certain to encounter lengthy
    debate and revision before reaching a consensus.

    Thx, ... P.

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  • From peter@easthope.ca@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 25 17:10:01 2025
    Joe & all,

    From: Joe <joe@jretrading.com>
    Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 16:49:24 +0100
    The idiots already do whatever they want to do with JavaScript, AJAX
    etc.

    Yes and in many or most contexts the practices are unnecessary. Where
    security is a concern, execution of code from a remote server on a
    client system makes no sense. Risks are particularly obvious in
    finance and health care. Stories about hospitals paying ransoms appear
    in the news.

    In the financial realm, authorities probably have the power to banish
    dodgy practice.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Trade_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Consumer_Agency_of_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Banking_Authority

    As with any public policy, implementation will encounter protest.
    Only a tiny fraction of the population working in finance or health
    care has more than a cursory understanding of technology. Progressive
    action is unlikely before criminal activity is routinely evident and intolerable. =8~(

    Regards, ... P.





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