• Re: serial console

    From Alain D D Williams@21:1/5 to mick.crane on Thu Jul 31 02:20:01 2025
    On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 12:59:02AM +0100, mick.crane wrote:
    I've never really known what a serial console is.

    The name is a bit of history. When I connected to a large computer in the 1970s I did so using an AR 33 teletype, this was a largely mechanical device with a keyboard and printer (what you typed ended up on paper):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33

    It connected to the computer via a *serial* connection and ran at a blistering 10
    characters per second - it was noisy as well!

    I think that it was called a serial connection because the bits that made up the ASCII characters (7 bits + 1 parity bit) were transmitted one after the other down a twisted pair of wires.

    Later we got VDUs (Visual Display Units) which used the same serial connection but at a higher speed (look up 'baud') and these were a keyboard and aka TV that displayed characters, typically 23 or 24 lines of 80 characters.

    The Linux console (press Ctrl-Alt-F1 to see it) provides an emulation of a
    VDU - thus serial console.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33

    Say in relation to a Raspberry Pi or Arduino
    I assumed a serial console was a device with a screen and keyboard.
    When people talk about a serial console they are talking about connecting a Debian PC to a device with a parallel, wired cable to a parallel port or an adaptor on a PC and emulating this console thing with software?
    Like a telnet connection?
    mick


    --
    Alain Williams
    Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
    +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
    Parliament Hill Computers. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
    #include <std_disclaimer.h>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Dondley@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 31 02:20:01 2025
    On Jul 30, 2025, at 7:59 PM, mick.crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> wrote:

    I've never really known what a serial console is.
    Say in relation to a Raspberry Pi or Arduino
    I assumed a serial console was a device with a screen and keyboard.
    When people talk about a serial console they are talking about connecting a Debian PC to a device with a parallel, wired cable to a parallel port or an adaptor on a PC and emulating this console thing with software?
    Like a telnet connection?
    mick


    Serial means one bit after another. Console is an old school term for a computer control panel on old mainframes. As those died out, the word “console” morphed into meaning your display/keyboard/mouse which can often be serial input/output devices.
    There are various ports for connecting a serial device to a computer.

    If anyone is applying the term “serial” to a parallel port or a device that has parallel output, that would seem wrong to me.
    <html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div><div dir="auto" style="font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing:
    normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
    space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; font-size: 14px;"><br></div></div></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jul 30, 2025, at 7:59 PM, mick.crane &lt;mick.crane@gmail.com&
    gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>I've never really known what a serial console is.<br>Say in relation to a Raspberry Pi or Arduino<br>I assumed a serial console was a device with a screen and keyboard.<br>When people talk
    about a serial console they are talking about connecting a Debian PC to a device with a parallel, wired cable to a parallel port or an adaptor on a PC and emulating this console thing with software?<br>Like a telnet connection?<br>mick<br><br></div></div>
    </blockquote></div><br><div><div style="font-size: 14px;">Serial means one bit after another. Console is an old school term for a computer control panel on old mainframes. As those died out, the word “console” morphed into meaning your display/
    keyboard/mouse which can often be serial input/output devices. There are various ports for connecting a serial device to a computer.&nbsp;</div><div style="font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style="font-size: 14px;">If anyone is applying the term “serial
    to a parallel port or a device that has parallel output, that would seem wrong to me.&nbsp;</div></div></body></html>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to mick.crane on Thu Jul 31 02:30:01 2025
    On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 00:59:02 +0100, mick.crane wrote:
    When people talk about a serial console they are talking about connecting a Debian PC to a device with a parallel, wired cable to a parallel port or an adaptor on a PC and emulating this console thing with software?
    Like a telnet connection?

    Originally, a teletype or a terminal would have been connected to
    the serial port. That would have been how you accessed the system.

    As terminals stopped being common, the common replacement for a terminal
    would be a PC running a terminal emulator. If that PC is running
    Linux, then minicom would be a common choice for the terminal emulator.
    It's designed for connecting to serial ports (with settings for changing
    the baud rate and so on). There are a few others as well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Smith@21:1/5 to mick.crane on Thu Jul 31 03:00:01 2025
    Hi,

    On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 01:38:15AM +0100, mick.crane wrote:
    serial console/ parallel is likely me not understanding terminology.
    These Raspberry Pis, Arduinos with the connection with all the pins, what protocol is that expecting?

    Raspberry Pis and Arduinos are normally talking serial over their USB connector. The multitude of pins on these things are not normally used
    for serial; they are GPIO pins for doing other things. One could
    implement a serial protocol over them if one wants, but there is serial
    right there on the USB port.

    The serial protocol used here is the same as what would be done over a dedicated 9 pin serial port.

    I expect you can do serial over a parallel port but it is rare to see a parallel port on any device these days. Everything tends to converge on
    USB.

    Note that Raspberry Pi is capable of running a full operating system so
    most people would have it run one like Linux and manage it over SSH
    rather than use the USB for a serial console. They might have other uses
    for the USB, and SSH is anyway more pleasant to use. When the device
    runs a full operating system like Linux, serial consoles tend to be for emergencies.

    Arduinos and other microcontrollers on the other hand can give you
    serial output and make it seem like a luxury. And I suppose it is,
    compared to having to use an oscilloscope and probes.

    I expect that most uses of the term "serial console" today refer to
    something going over a USB cable or over a network to a virtual serial
    console. It's been about 15 years since I have bought a full rackmount
    server with a physical 9 pin serial port. These things have virtual
    serial ports exposed over Ethernet these days.

    Thanks,
    Andy

    --
    https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Dondley@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 31 02:50:01 2025

    serial console/ parallel is likely me not understanding terminology.
    These Raspberry Pis, Arduinos with the connection with all the pins, what protocol is that expecting?
    mick

    I’ve only played with arduino once and never a Raspberry pi (I think it has a ton of different ports) and it probably depends on the model. So I can’t be of much help there.

    How many pins does it have? If it’s a 9 pin arranged in two rows then it’s definitely a serial port. If it’s got 15 pins in three rows it’s probably a vga serial port for the monitor.





    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to mick.crane on Thu Jul 31 02:50:01 2025
    On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 01:38:15 +0100, mick.crane wrote:
    serial console/ parallel is likely me not understanding terminology.
    These Raspberry Pis, Arduinos with the connection with all the pins, what protocol is that expecting?

    A serial cable usually has a 9-pin (DB-9) connector on each end.
    A parallel cable usually has a 25-pin (DB-25) connector on one end,
    and either another DB-25 connector or a mini-Centronix connector on the
    other end.

    See pictures at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_port>.

    Typically, parallel ports have been used for printers. The Iomega Zip
    drive also had a parallel port interface, but wasn't super popular.

    Serial ports have commonly been used for teletypes/terminals, mice,
    and a wide variety of other instruments and devices.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Dondley@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 31 03:00:01 2025

    How many pins does it have? If it’s a 9 pin arranged in two rows then it’s definitely a serial port. If it’s got 15 pins in three rows it’s probably a vga serial port for the monitor.


    Correction: VGA carries analog signals, so it’s not a serial cable carrying raw bytes like a 9 pin serial port.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alain D D Williams@21:1/5 to Steve Dondley on Thu Jul 31 03:00:01 2025
    On Wed, Jul 30, 2025 at 08:48:05PM -0400, Steve Dondley wrote:

    serial console/ parallel is likely me not understanding terminology.
    These Raspberry Pis, Arduinos with the connection with all the pins, what protocol is that expecting?
    mick

    I’ve only played with arduino once and never a Raspberry pi (I think it has a ton of different ports) and it probably depends on the model. So I can’t be of much help there.

    How many pins does it have? If it’s a 9 pin arranged in two rows then it’s definitely a serial port. If it’s got 15 pins in three rows it’s probably a vga serial port for the monitor.

    If it has 25 pins in 2 rows it is prolly a serial port - but usually only a few of the pins were connected:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_communication

    These were bits of kit that were around for decades; how they were used, wired up, etc changed over time. To see how it is used on a particular device you need to look at the documentation.

    --
    Alain Williams
    Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
    +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
    Parliament Hill Computers. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
    #include <std_disclaimer.h>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From James Cloos@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 31 03:10:01 2025
    "mc" == mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> writes:

    serial console/ parallel is likely me not understanding terminology.
    These Raspberry Pis, Arduinos with the connection with all the pins,
    what protocol is that expecting?

    those ports use serial. check out:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-232
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_port

    -JimC
    --
    James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>
    OpenPGP: https://jhcloos.com/0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6.asc

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Karen Lewellen@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 31 03:30:01 2025
    I will add that for some users with a hardware tool the serial console provided
    access to adaptive technology programs of many types.
    Karen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tomas@tuxteam.de@21:1/5 to Greg Wooledge on Thu Jul 31 06:30:01 2025
    On Wed, Jul 30, 2025 at 08:46:49PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 01:38:15 +0100, mick.crane wrote:
    serial console/ parallel is likely me not understanding terminology.
    These Raspberry Pis, Arduinos with the connection with all the pins, what protocol is that expecting?

    A serial cable usually has a 9-pin (DB-9) connector on each end.
    A parallel cable usually has a 25-pin (DB-25) connector on one end,
    and either another DB-25 connector or a mini-Centronix connector on the
    other end.

    They also had 25 pin, but they were the other way around :-)

    It's confusing, I know. This thing has had a very long life, therefore
    it presents itself under many incarnations.

    Serial console is actually a misnomer. Serial interface in a way also,
    but it usually refers to RS-232, originally a way to connect a terminal
    or modem ("DCE") to a computer ("DTE"), see [1], for the connector and
    hardware part, [2].

    The "serial" thing refers to the fact that data are transmitted one bit
    after the other, so you don't need that many wires (it's bidirectional, therefore you need strictly speaking two plus "electrical stuff" like
    ground. But there are many support functions like flow control ("HOLD
    ON, I CAN'T GO THAT FAST"), device readiness indicators, etc. etc
    (for the modem, there's a "ring indicator", for "the phone is ringing",
    for example).

    The "serial" term is confusing in itself. USB is serial (or, for
    USB-C a bundle of serials), PCI express is also serial. Most high
    speed lines these days are serial [3], mainly because it's easier
    and cheaper to pick apart clocking protocol at the ends than to
    fix timing skew and electromagnetic noise across a bundle of lines
    which are supposed to walk in sync.

    Cheers

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-232
    [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_port
    [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_express#Serial_bus
    --
    t


    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

    iF0EABECAB0WIQRp53liolZD6iXhAoIFyCz1etHaRgUCaIrwgAAKCRAFyCz1etHa Rki0AJ9hNM65IZW5vH0lOKKBv06hCOQMKgCfQrjdl7FQO2MGAqkvpx/uNn1DPh8=
    =OZGE
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe@21:1/5 to jeremy ardley on Thu Jul 31 10:50:01 2025
    On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 09:49:37 +0800
    jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 31/7/25 08:08, Steve Dondley wrote:

    On Jul 30, 2025, at 7:59 PM, mick.crane <mick.crane@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    I've never really known what a serial console is.
    Say in relation to a Raspberry Pi or Arduino
    I assumed a serial console was a device with a screen and keyboard.
    When people talk about a serial console they are talking about
    connecting a Debian PC to a device with a parallel, wired cable to
    a parallel port or an adaptor on a PC and emulating this console
    thing with software?
    Like a telnet connection?
    mick


    Serial means one bit after another. Console is an old school term
    for a computer control panel on old mainframes. As those died out,
    the word “console” morphed into meaning your display/keyboard/mouse which can often be serial input/output devices. There are various
    ports for connecting a serial device to a computer.


    The serial interface RS-232 was invented to connect a Data Terminal
    Device (DTE) an a communications device (DCE).

    In most incarnations the DTE was a teletype or video terminal, while
    the DCE was usually a modem.

    The RS-232 Standard specifies +/- 12V as the nominal signalling level (actually above +3V and below -3V).

    If you want to be really technical, RS-232 does not specify the
    electrical signal parameters, the +-12V is the V-24 standard. RS-232
    specifies this:

    The standard also specifies a 25
    pin connector (DB-25) with additional pins for out-of-band
    signalling, such as DTR which is asserted by a DTE to indicate it is operating.

    The standard is for DTE to DCE but many people bodged it to allow two
    DTE to communicate, using so called 'null modem' cables etc.

    The implementation for Pi allows it to act as a DTE or DCE with 4
    wires, Tx, Rx, VCC, GND. An additional pin can used to inhibit
    sending data.

    It is important to note that the Pi Serial terminal is not the same
    as the SPI or I2C communications also used on the device.

    Which are also serial ports, but suitable only for very short distances
    such as within electronic PCBs and using very different protocols. A
    modified SPI is used by Canon for communication between cameras and its
    AF series of lenses.

    The Pi Serial terminal can be used to debug bootup and to communicate
    to other serial devices such as industrial controllers, usually using
    RS-485 rather  than RS-232


    RS-485 and RS-422 use cables with a specified impedance, unlike RS-232,
    so can work over much longer distances and/or at higher speeds. I've had
    RS-485 working over a kilometre of cable at 9600 Baud. RS-232/V-24 is
    only really reliable over about twenty metres at its highest speed.


    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Paoli@21:1/5 to mick.crane@gmail.com on Thu Jul 31 12:50:02 2025
    First the serial, in this context generally refers to EIA RS-232C serial interface, or at least something more-or-less compatible with that (most notably electrically). Per standard, this would be DB-25 M for DTE
    (Data Terminal Equipment - e.g. the terminal itself), and F for DCE
    (Data Communication Equipment - e.g. the serial phone modem). The specification was written primarily to standardize the communication
    between terminal and modem. E.g. one would have terminal, connect that
    to modem, connect the modem to phone line (might be acoustic coupled,
    or possibly direct connection), phone would generally dial up some
    computer - well, actually a modem on the other end, which would go to
    serial port on another computer - and even that often not directly, but through, e.g. port sharing equipment (e.g. to allow one to select which computer at a location that one wanted to connect to).

    Also beware that just because it's, e.g. DB-25 or DE-9, doesn't
    necessarily mean it's at all RS-232C or signal compatible with such,
    so connecting the wrong things together could cause damage. However
    RS-232C specification is such that improperly interconnecting two
    RS-232C interfaces, regardless of how they're miswired between each
    other and/or themselves, shouldn't cause any electrical damage (in about
    40 years experience, I've only seen one fail in such a case). So, e.g.,
    DB-25 and DE-9 may be Centronics parallel, or SCSI, or video (e.g.
    MDA or CGA), among many possibilities other than RS-232C, so
    interconnecting electrically incompatible could be quite bad and
    damaging.

    However, even early on, the specification wasn't always strictly
    followed, e.g. though DTE calls for M, many terminal manufacturers would
    in fact make their connectors F rather than M (my guess is to not have
    to deal with servicing bent pins on the connector for the terminal
    itself - easier to replace an external cable if the pins get bent on the
    cable end instead). And, though the IBM PC and PC-XT followed the
    standard, using DB-25M for their DTE ports that they supplied via
    adapter card(s), when it came to the PC-AT, they switched to DE-9 M for
    DTE, so in subsequent years, that became more common - especially on the computer end, though most modems still used DB-25F. The full RS-232C specification supports two full sets of communication lines. Most of
    the time only one set is used, so between that, and some other rarely
    used connections, that made use of DE-9 feasible for most of the more
    common purposes. In fact if software flow control is used,
    communication can be done with as few as three for basic serial
    communication, but that may drop some functionality - e.g. like RI for
    Ring Indicator/Indication signal from the modem. Though many modems can
    or will send the string RING to indicate line is RINGing, that may not
    be distinguished from transmission of such characters that isn't an
    actual RINGing telephone line - hence, e.g. a separate RI signal line
    for that. Other hardware may further modify things, e.g. with original specification and staying within it, maximum achievable distance would
    be 15m/50ft., and maximum speed of 19200 bps. But with some tweaking of hardware specifications/tolerances, and low cap(acitance) wiring, that
    could be extended up to 200' in many cases, and speeds could also
    potentially go much higher, so about 56K is the limits on what could be
    handled over a typical analog phone line (due to its signal
    characteristics and limitations), but with direct wired connection, significantly higher speeds can be achieved, and notably including newer standards that are also generally backwards compatible.
    153600 or something close to that is probably the highest that's
    typically supported on any such interfaces, and not all such hardware necessarily supports such higher speeds. In fact relatively early
    modems had a top speed of 300 bps - for text, that's generally far below
    the speed most people can read at.

    So, that's the serial bit - originally primarily aimed for between data/computer terminal (e.g. vt-100, Teletype 33-ASR, etc.) and modem
    (or directly to computer), but has been used more generally for a fair
    amount of communication beyond that (e.g. two computers can directly communicate with each other over a serial connection - e.g. UUCP worked
    as dial-up based networking, or could likewise work over directly
    connected serial lines). But because of its popularity and (relative) standardization, it got used for many additional things (e.g. serial
    printer).

    And console - notably computer console. That concept goes way back.
    Generally referred to the primary input/output/display on the computer
    itself, intended for computer operator. Notably to be used to control
    the computer to view status, start and boot it and control that, stop
    it, etc. On older computers it may be nothing more than a bunch of
    lights and toggle switches (e.g. early DEC PDP-11 series). Some would
    have a hex keypad for input, and might have some type of digital
    display. As hardware became more capable, most systems moved to the
    console being some type of terminal or terminal-like device, perhaps
    with additional controls and functionality, but mostly looking and
    acting like a terminal. And, many computer systems evolved so they'd
    use a serial terminal as their console device - so that would serve as
    the input and output to control basic operations such as boot, etc. For
    many computers, this is still an option. E.g. Raspberry Pi can do this
    - it has a serial-like interface ... 3 pins ... but at TTL rather than
    RS-232C levels, but a simple hardware circuit can shift that, or one
    could connect as-is to use such for two Raspberry Pis to be able to
    directly communicate over such.

    In the land of Linux, though there may be more serial devices, the first
    two are /dev/ttyS0 and /dev/ttyS1. Those are the first and second
    serial ports, and can be used as serial console. In fact Linux can do
    quite a variety of consoles, and can even output to more than one -
    though it will only use one as console input. Linux can do display
    adapter console (e.g. whatever the typical screen built-in to the
    computer is, or the display that's connected to it via cable - and
    likewise keyboard for input), it can do serial console (e.g. for
    terminal), it can do console over network, and if I recall correctly, it
    even has parallel port console capabilities.

    So, Linux, compiled in and/or from hardware detection, or from arguments
    passed when booting kernel, it will pick console device(s), it will use
    only one for input, but can use more than one for output. Many boot
    loaders, notably including GRUB, can also deal with at least some
    different types of consoles (e.g. the typical built-in or installed
    graphics card and connected keyboard, or serial).

    So, tty1-tty63 are virtual consoles on Linux, and one can switch among
    them, though commonly tty1-tty4 are used, possibly more up to tty12, but
    most commonly additional beyond tty12 aren't activated. There's also
    tty0, which is always the current active virtual console. So, that's
    what Linux will typically use by default, if it has relevant hardware
    for that.
    Here are example arguments from a running kernel:
    console=tty0 console=ttyS0,9600n8
    That first specifies the more typical console - that would be via
    display adapter and attached keyboard. The second is for serial, and
    also specifies additionally some communication parameters to set on the interface. In the case when more than one such console= argument is
    present, the last is used to specify what is used for console input, and
    all are used for console output. Now, that particular host happens to
    be VM, so that serial is virtual rather than physical, but within the VM infrastructure there are ways to connect to and use that virtual serial
    port, including for input and output, quite as if one were using it via
    an actual physical serial terminal. And I do also have physical host
    hardware where I've set them up to be able to use actual serial terminal
    for console, though I don't have them doing that presently.

    Note also that enabling login in regular multi-user mode on serial ports
    is different than serial console. May use same port for both, but if,
    e.g., login isn't enabled on the serial port - even if it's serial
    console, once the host is up and running in regular multi-user mode,
    there's no login prompt there nor listening process to allow login
    there.

    On Wed, Jul 30, 2025 at 4:59 PM mick.crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> wrote:

    I've never really known what a serial console is.
    Say in relation to a Raspberry Pi or Arduino
    I assumed a serial console was a device with a screen and keyboard.
    When people talk about a serial console they are talking about
    connecting a Debian PC to a device with a parallel, wired cable to a
    parallel port or an adaptor on a PC and emulating this console thing
    with software?
    Like a telnet connection?
    mick

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to mick.crane on Thu Jul 31 14:50:01 2025
    On Jul 31, 2025, mick.crane wrote:
    I've never really known what a serial console is.
    Say in relation to a Raspberry Pi or Arduino

    Skipping a *LOT* of history (and linguistics, etc), a "serial console"
    is a "console" (user interface) provided remotely to the device in
    question over a serial communications channel. I don't believe the term
    really came into use until *after* ethernet took over.

    You see this pretty frequently in networking gear or similar devices
    that don't have need for their own "video" output capabilities (VGA or whatever). Provided that the network is actually working, chances are
    that you won't use the "serial console" to manage the device -- you'll
    just use telnet or ssh, rather than lugging your laptop and a serial
    cable down to the network closet.

    I assumed a serial console was a device with a screen and keyboard.

    If you're thinking of things like the VT-100; I believe that the
    physical device would be referred to as a "Terminal" (which would then
    allow you to access the machine Console).

    It's pretty fuzzy though -- since if "console" means "user interface",
    then the VT-100 (being a physical manifestation of "user interface") is
    a console. Not 100% sure what makes the distinction there.

    When people talk about a serial console they are talking about
    connecting a Debian PC to a device with a parallel, wired cable to a
    parallel port or an adaptor on a PC and emulating this console thing
    with software?

    Well, a "Serial" cable, but otherwise yes. The "console" itself isn't
    really emulated.

    Like a telnet connection?

    Pretty much, except telnet is run over TCP/IP instead of a serial port.


    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

    iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE3asj+xn6fYUcweBnbWVw5UznKGAFAmiLZVwACgkQbWVw5Uzn KGDfOA//TgJzO2+FQBw8uhXjTabE8mRrETfKTiUJBv6QS3xTNmdau8M2E5Qd77nb k3mcNHmwog8dX2xqkGsntgMwcIavPoVXO+dHkDI5ILmNqUCv1hHcXbKTzGSn7YWD 9O/0UbQNW1cvj8JKCt4tp95aEjawWoS5qR8x7DjFmuC8ThPiR2OE5spw6k6lpg25 UvbHGCqokypy2zD5lMNWCnbQUUj1qMFCDCXGydqfWedK3G2CY4iyEQPG6elzYqCi FdIW2PuiLrwnYaOA9K/kLSFXcpCtsbhJcD9S0m0Ob8ljRNBLEMLrILUHI7qaYUu3 v4kDKcLDjQrJdaE2ZT2zpNcTpsCDiQS+t60Z81kFcjQ0xY9Pv7+nc2yU9AJATalF JgIWMbVLF7KhTUDCgOFKah+OhLxIKmcE24b8dOAtuTe5UXuOi+eXMmnN0h2TmMDK 9N5kQ9q4Cgj690jLClWGVSYdv95ahsn8OdMpuiDYjxczIsEhFU9s4BPghkxWp0J5 5RyyDNi/fN7/crBKzd+tTBi+/juFUPABaEkaRBo9xIaac6SDUKfwAFUcZNmmpaOw 5YLr1Is16ucRjhUkT/TjQvsL6+UIEZJvfKa7MuVKu+0KQjPMdwk89n5IwZJih+aF +1cQjDcHSxBsLuAI4L65DSjpu2hcFiWAPN6BOcnRHjvEYujUq/M=
    =fB5I
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Us
  • From John Dow@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 31 15:00:01 2025
    On 31 Jul 2025, at 13:45, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

    On Jul 31, 2025, mick.crane wrote:
    I've never really known what a serial console is.
    Say in relation to a Raspberry Pi or Arduino

    Skipping a *LOT* of history (and linguistics, etc), a "serial console"
    is a "console" (user interface) provided remotely to the device in
    question over a serial communications channel. I don't believe the term really came into use until *after* ethernet took over.


    I think you’re right there, Dan - when I was soldering up db25 RS-232 cables (pins 2,3,7 and 20 IIRC) and crawling around under floors, a terminal was a terminal and the console was something directly connected to the computer. We didn’t bother with
    serial’ because it’s not like there was any other kind of terminal :) It worries me that knowledge of these things (and UARTs and character vs block devices and any number of other things) is likely to die out with us old farts :)

    J


    --
    John Dow <jmd@nelefa.org>
    http://www.nelefa.org
    PVC:APKTIDQ4881ao2SFS0DZLOe7t6V0UwcuUV4x3dnkJR0TZsYX0usQ



    --Apple-Mail=_5F2388BC-754B-404E-878B-3A8E2F090A4F
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html;
    charset=utf-8

    <html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 31 Jul 2025, at 13:45, Dan
    Purgert &lt;dan@djph.net&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>On Jul 31, 2025, mick.crane wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">I've never really known what a serial console is.<br>Say in relation to a Raspberry Pi or Arduino<br></
    blockquote><br>Skipping a *LOT* of history (and linguistics, etc), a "serial console"<br>is a "console" (user interface) provided remotely to the device in<br>question over a serial communications channel. &nbsp;I don't believe the term<br>really came
  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Thu Jul 31 15:20:02 2025
    On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 08:45:19 -0400, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On Jul 31, 2025, mick.crane wrote:
    I assumed a serial console was a device with a screen and keyboard.

    If you're thinking of things like the VT-100; I believe that the
    physical device would be referred to as a "Terminal" (which would then
    allow you to access the machine Console).

    It's pretty fuzzy though -- since if "console" means "user interface",
    then the VT-100 (being a physical manifestation of "user interface") is
    a console. Not 100% sure what makes the distinction there.

    I think the term "serial console" came into vogue around the time
    Linux and the BSDs started to be used on personal computers.

    On a typical PC running Linux, the "console" (main administrative
    command-line interface) is usually accessed via a directly attached
    keyboard and monitor. The keyboard may be attached via a PS2 port,
    or a USB port, while the monitor was originally VGA, and nowadays may
    also be HDMI or DisplayPort.

    Administratively, the console often has special privileges. It shows
    messages during system boot, and it may receive additional kernel
    messages that are not sent to other terminals. Sometimes, direct root
    logins are permitted only on the console, and not on other terminals.
    On Linux systems, it's common for "startx" to be allowed only on the
    console, and not on other terminals, even if those other terminals are
    capable of graphics.

    A "serial console", then, is an alternative means of accessing the system console, via a serial port, instead of some combination of directly
    attached "PC-ish" hardware. A terminal attached to the serial port would communicate at a much lower data rate (typically 9600 baud in the early
    days, probably faster on most modern hardware). For context, at 9600
    baud, most people can see the characters being displayed in real time.
    It takes a noticeable amount of time for a screen full of text to be
    received and rendered.

    A true, full-featured serial console would ideally display messages
    while the system is booting, which requires some kernel support, as
    those messages are usually displayed on the VGA/HDMI/DP monitor.

    In a data center context, a server with a serial console might be one
    of several such devices, which all have their serial ports connected
    to some sort of central monitoring system, which can record their
    serial console messages, and offer remote login access over said
    serial ports for administration.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 31 15:40:01 2025
    Greg Wooledge (HE12025-07-31):
    I think the term "serial console" came into vogue around the time
    Linux and the BSDs started to be used on personal computers.

    This is my understanding too.

    Administratively, the console often has special privileges. It shows messages during system boot, and it may receive additional kernel
    messages that are not sent to other terminals.

    Which is a good occasion to mention another case where serial consoles
    are useful: virtual machines, “virsh console” is much lighter than “virt-viewer”, and thoug it has its issues it will not annoy you with mismatches of keyboard layouts.

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to John Dow on Thu Jul 31 15:50:01 2025
    On Jul 31, 2025, John Dow wrote:

    On 31 Jul 2025, at 13:45, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

    On Jul 31, 2025, mick.crane wrote:
    I've never really known what a serial console is.
    Say in relation to a Raspberry Pi or Arduino

    Skipping a *LOT* of history (and linguistics, etc), a "serial console"
    is a "console" (user interface) provided remotely to the device in
    question over a serial communications channel. I don't believe the term really came into use until *after* ethernet took over.


    I think you’re right there, Dan - when I was soldering up db25 RS-232 cables (pins 2,3,7 and 20 IIRC) and crawling around under floors, a
    terminal was a terminal and the console was something directly

    Doesn't help that "Console" apparently also meant the desk with
    blinkenlights and a typewriter (as two completely separate things -- no keyboard into the computer).

    connected to the computer. We didn’t bother with ’serial’ because it’s
    not like there was any other kind of terminal :) It worries me that
    knowledge of these things (and UARTs and character vs block devices
    and any number of other things) is likely to die out with us old farts
    :)

    Some of your designs should stay dead, like "Tx to Tx, because something something DCE". :P

    Depends a little bit. On the radio side (yet another too expensive
    hobby, BTW), it's the old farts going "why would you want to try
    building something when you can just buy a $20 radio that just mostly
    works?" (well, you see, /Richard/[1], unlike you who only passed his tech
    by memorizing the question and answer pool ... )


    [1]To be read with an appropriate amount of rancor towards gatekeeping
    old people.

    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

    iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE3asj+xn6fYUcweBnbWVw5UznKGAFAmiLcjsACgkQbWVw5Uzn KGDy8A/9FUoVHfJGBF2cZulmyz7ZRyJglWpc86YSyfh5lqoDdMxO7LOrLXw0JSTA KRGmwNmnZpNG2nLN6PjWPw23SnKS8xfVv19QWsvuWv31vNjnmU/SamiLNy5xPDji gj8ESsPytHOgqAC3inV/QHij4tkZpW4gGO6+qQPcmAw4n2EkQMxjG3EdNtJbV8Cv ZCdePqfw+RmExHW+u67uTKF+ioPvelqTgMJ3czlEWby5bENOZTv0/6modHBJzZWv rPV3RSecddzg0Bi9t7bwh0+Wt+peCR2kdAiCsdZDqKsIYzHkH7z1pjqpllKTB1kw HPc5i4rGuJDkH3Mwop4jU1TT4iGcWxvdpqw9+URUDetmFc5ngi8thkWRF+okigH0 LesAb+UjOarTU9pFCE+HEA5IuiIyDU/Z2Xa1rKHGjfVfy1d2NHMqTIN7wDSDQkvP Tx1EJIsJVIYPTeZMojdvNUtzCWgPvTJODkCQeieqjagk14Hx9i4bNFor7XvINPvL HZir2Cz7HHh/cb+ddpWsnbt9RFt8/UDU+8Qom+xeOz0fVV0KU9PJghYCs5RoNjzE m/xs5f1dBnkd1uaJZv1ILi9onsWa5L8fRi9+F7FKVvSP+4ExxyDCVZfOxekn0jT5 /CMw58FTqvGTyxsARzHuV5mAPVTc7XIpmggaKgh7NRiLBazkkw0=
    =jptH
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Us
  • From John Dow@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 31 16:30:01 2025
    On 31 Jul 2025, at 14:40, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

    Depends a little bit. On the radio side (yet another too expensive
    hobby, BTW), it's the old farts going "why would you want to try
    building something when you can just buy a $20 radio that just mostly
    works?" (well, you see, /Richard/[1], unlike you who only passed his tech
    by memorizing the question and answer pool ... )


    As a cross-hobby old fart, let me just say 73s de MM0SNK :)

    J


    --
    John Dow <jmd@nelefa.org>
    http://www.nelefa.org
    PVC:APKTIDQ4881ao2SFS0DZLOe7t6V0UwcuUV4x3dnkJR0TZsYX0usQ



    --Apple-Mail=_D11E145D-6EE0-44D9-BEAD-3AFE2E6213CB
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html;
    charset=us-ascii

    <html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 31 Jul 2025, at 14:40, Dan
    Purgert &lt;dan@djph.net&gt; wrote:</div><div><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
    text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fo
  • From John Hasler@21:1/5 to Greg on Thu Jul 31 18:50:01 2025
    Greg writes:
    I think the term "serial console" came into vogue around the time
    Linux and the BSDs started to be used on personal computers.

    Minicomputers often did not have physical consoles: everything was done
    via serial ports. When there were multiple serial ports IIRC one of
    them was identified as the console.

    IIRC on early Sun workstations text-only logins used a virtual 9600 baud
    serial connection. If no graphics were installed one of the serial
    ports was the console.

    These practices may have lead to the development of the term "serial
    console".
    --
    John Hasler
    john@sugarbit.com
    Elmwood, WI USA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From James H. H. Lampert@21:1/5 to John Hasler on Thu Jul 31 19:00:01 2025
    On 7/31/25 9:39 AM, John Hasler wrote:

    Minicomputers often did not have physical consoles: everything was done
    via serial ports. When there were multiple serial ports IIRC one of
    them was identified as the console.

    And IBM Midrange Systems, from the S/34 on, used EBCDIC-based terminals,
    using the 5250 data stream and Twinax cabling (earlier Midrange boxes
    used other terminal protocols).

    Many years ago, I worked with Commodore Amigas. They had a number of
    facilities for using a terminal connected to the serial port for
    debugging purposes.

    FWIW

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roy J. Tellason, Sr.@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 31 19:30:01 2025
    On Thursday 31 July 2025 08:58:35 am John Dow wrote:
    It worries me that knowledge of these things (and UARTs and character vs block devices and any number of other things) is likely to die out with us old farts :)


    That's why I still have the books that talk about all of that stuff... :-)

    --
    Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
    ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
    be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
    -
    Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alain D D Williams@21:1/5 to John Dow on Thu Jul 31 19:40:02 2025
    On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 01:58:35PM +0100, John Dow wrote:

    It worries me that knowledge of these things (and UARTs and character vs block devices and any number of other things) is likely to die out with us old farts :)

    I do not know anyone who has direct knowledge of mercury delay line memory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay-line_memory

    That is what museums are for, but yes: memory of these things die.

    --
    Alain Williams
    Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
    +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
    Parliament Hill Computers. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
    #include <std_disclaimer.h>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Ritter@21:1/5 to Mike Castle on Fri Aug 1 23:10:01 2025
    Mike Castle wrote:

    Serial multiplexors used to be common in datacenters. Connect to the multiplexor over ssh or equivalent, and select which physical device
    on the rack to connect to. Most enterprise hardware would output the
    boot screens (including BIOS) to the serial port. These days, I think
    most of them run sshd or equivalent in the BIOS?

    Serious servers implement IPMI or a close relative (iDRAC,
    ILO...) to connect to a BMC, a separate tiny computer with an ethernet
    port, and has some combination of features like:

    - serial console to the main system (with support for the
    BIOS/UEFI, grub serial, and kernel console serial)

    - full KVM emulation (usually at a fairly low resolution over
    VNC or a webpage embedded view)

    - main power control

    You can still buy terminal servers which connect one to a few
    dozen serial ports over an SSH connection, and some are
    integrated with some amount of remote power switching.

    You can also buy remote KVM devices that connect to VGA or HDMI,
    USB or PS/2, and shuffle that all into a VNC-like session.

    -dsr-

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)