• [gentoo-user] planning a new machine : comments welcome

    From Philip Webb@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 2 20:40:01 2022
    After > 6 years , I'm planning to build a new machine ANB6.
    The present machine ANB5 -- details at end -- continues to perform well,
    but I can't rely on that for ever.

    I use it for everyday desktop work + fun.
    The weekly Gentoo update is the main stressor, for which ANB5 is adequate,
    but it's always nice to get a bit more speed & avoid too much heat-up.

    I expect to buy the parts from the local store
    -- Canada Computers in Downtown Toronto -- & prices below are in CAD.
    I'm price-sensitive, but willing to pay a bit more for a better part.
    Here's the list + a few comments ; '*' denotes presently prefered item :

    ANB6

    [ CPU : not much difference, but comments very welcome.
    I've had good luck with AMD in the past, less so with Intel ]

    220208 CPU AMD : CPAMD00131 : Ryzen 7 : 5700G : 8-core 16-thread : $ 388
    Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,6 GHz : Radeon Graphix Wreath Stealth
    00055 : Ryzen 7 : 3700X : 7 nm : 8-core 16-thread : $ 400
    Socket AM4 : 3,6 / 4,4 GHz
    * 00110 : Ryzen 7 : 5800X : ZEN 3 : 7 nm : 8-core 16-thread : $ 460
    Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,7 GHz boost

    [ Mobo : ANB4 (previous machine, now stand-by) + ANB5 have Gigabyte ]

    220219 Mobo AMD : MBASU00311 : Asus : Prime B550+ (Ryzen AM4) : $ 180
    dual M.2 : PCle 4.0 : 1 GB Ethernet : SATA 6 Gbps
    USB 3.2 gen 2 Types A/C : Aura Sync RGB headers support
    * MBGIG00145 : Gigabyte : X570 Aorus elite WIFI : $ 220
    dual PCle 4.0 M.2 : Intel dual-band 802.11ac wireless
    front USB Type C : RGB Fusion 2.0

    [ Memory : Kingston has always performed well & 16 GB sb adequate ]

    220222 Memory : MEKIT00581 : Kingston : 2 x 8 = 16 GB $ 110
    DDR4 3600 MHz CL17 dual channel

    [ Graphics card : this seems to be the big problem.
    There are cheaper cards, but they're all "sold out" :
    apparently, there's a supply problem at present ;
    this was the cheapest in stock in late Feb ]

    220223 Graphix : VCASU00223 : Asus : $ 280
    Phoenix PH-GTX1650-O4GD6 GeForce GTX 1650
    4 GB GDDR6 : 1.41 GHz Core : 128 bit Bus Width
    DisplayPort HDMI DVI
    [ cheapest available : most types sold out : >= $ 60 ]

    [ SSD : Kingston as above : 1 TB sb adequate ]

    220222 SSD : SSKIT00058 : Kingston : 512 GB $ 95
    KC600 SATA3 6 GB/s 2,5" R 550 W 520 MB/s

    * SSKIT00069 : Kingston : 1 TB $ 170
    KC600 SATA3 6 GB/s 2,5" R 550 W 520 MB/s

    SSSAS00105 : Samsung : 500 GB $ 100
    870EVO SATA3 R 560 W 530 MB/s

    SSSAS00106 : Samsung : 1 TB $ 140
    870EVO SATA3 R 560 W 530 MB/s

    SSWEE00015 : W Digital : 500 GB $ 90
    3D NAND SATA R 560 W 530 MB/s

    SSWEE00015 : W Digital : 1 TB $ 140
    3D NAND SATA M.2 2280 R 560 W 530 MB/s

    [ HDD : for back-up + alternative OS (Mint).
    ANB5 has Seagate : anyone prefer W Digital & if so, why ? ]

    * 220222 HDD : HDSEA00144 : Seagate : 2 TB $ 55
    SATA 3,5" 7200 RPM

    HDWD002115 : W Digital : 1 TB $ 60
    SATA 3,5" 6 GB/s 7200 RPM 64 MB cache

    [ Case : ANB5 has Deepcool, which seems a good price ]

    * 220223 Case : CSDCL00019 : Deepcool : $ 55
    E-Shield 120 mm Fan Radiator Support
    E-ATX/ATX/MicroATX/MiniITX
    00032 : Matrexx 50 $ 60
    00035 : Matrexx 55 MESH $ 70
    PSU Shroud
    00044 : Macube 310P WH $ 80
    Magnetic/CableManagement/FAN HUB Pre-install

    [ Power : ANB5 has Thermaltake : is 700 W likely to be adequate ? ]

    * 220223 PSU : PSTHL00007 : Thermaltake $ 60
    700 W 80 PLUS
    PSSES00017 : Seasonic $ 60
    FOCUS SSR-650FM 650 W 80+
    Gold Semi-Modular ATX12V/EPS12V Compact 140 mm
    PSCO001438 : Corsair $ 60
    CX-M CX650M 650 W 80+ Bronze
    PSEVG00043 : EVGA $ 60
    600 BQ, 80+ BRONZE 600 W Semi-Modular FDB Fan 3-Yr Warranty
    PSCO100109 : Corsair $ 80
    CX750F RGB 750 W 80+ Bronze Fully Modular

    [ Wifi : currently, I'm using a landline for Internet,
    but my new apartment has free Wifi. Is it standard on Mobos these days ? ]

    Wifi : sb std on mobo

    [ Sound : I've never installed sound on my computers, but it wb nice.
    Do all Mobos have a sound chip today ? -- I'm an utter novice here ]

    Sound : sb available fr mobo, card is opt'l extra

    [ DVD drive : I don't believe I need this anymore ]

    DVD ?

    [ These are the specs for the present machine, built Oct 2015 ]

    ANB5

    150914 CPU : AMD X8 FX8370E 8-core 4,3 GHz 16 MB 32 nm 95 W : 259.00
    Direct replacement : 3 yr : 38.85
    150926 Mobo : ASUS M5A97 LE AMD 970/SB8950 DDR3 1866 GHz : 104.99
    150914 Memory : Kingston HyperX Fury 8 GB DDR3 1866 MHz CL10 : 68.99
    150914 Graphix : Asus GT610 810 MHz clock 1200 MHz memory : 74.99
    150914 SSD : Kingston SSDNow V300 240 GB SATA RW 450 MB/s : 109.99
    150914 HDD : Seagate Desktop SATA3 1 TB 64 MB 6 GB/s : 57.99
    Ont recycle fee : 0.75
    150914 DVD : Samsung SH-224FB 24x SATA 1.5 MB : 21.99
    Ont recycle fee : 0.75
    150917 Case : Deepcool Terraract BF : 39.99
    150917 PSU : Thermaltake TR2 500 W : 59.99

    ANB4 ANB5 have Gigabyte mobo (ANB5 had Asus, wh had 2 defects) ;
    ANB1-3 had Asus mobo (ANB2 orig'ly had Soyo)

    [ 'ANB' = 'Aristotle's new body' : Aristotle was my original XT in 1989
    & when I built my 1st machine in 2000, it was his 1st new body,
    since when he's been my computer spirit (smile).
    I'm a Classicist by training & wrote my PhD thesis on the philosopher.
    I have a mathematical side too ]

    --
    ========================,,============================================
    SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
    ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
    TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Wols Lists@21:1/5 to Philip Webb on Wed Mar 2 21:30:01 2022
    On 02/03/2022 19:39, Philip Webb wrote:
    After > 6 years , I'm planning to build a new machine ANB6.
    The present machine ANB5 -- details at end -- continues to perform well,
    but I can't rely on that for ever.

    I use it for everyday desktop work + fun.
    The weekly Gentoo update is the main stressor, for which ANB5 is adequate, but it's always nice to get a bit more speed & avoid too much heat-up.

    I expect to buy the parts from the local store
    -- Canada Computers in Downtown Toronto -- & prices below are in CAD.
    I'm price-sensitive, but willing to pay a bit more for a better part.
    Here's the list + a few comments ; '*' denotes presently prefered item :

    ANB6

    [ CPU : not much difference, but comments very welcome.
    I've had good luck with AMD in the past, less so with Intel ]

    220208 CPU AMD : CPAMD00131 : Ryzen 7 : 5700G : 8-core 16-thread : $ 388
    Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,6 GHz : Radeon Graphix Wreath Stealth
    00055 : Ryzen 7 : 3700X : 7 nm : 8-core 16-thread : $ 400
    Socket AM4 : 3,6 / 4,4 GHz
    * 00110 : Ryzen 7 : 5800X : ZEN 3 : 7 nm : 8-core 16-thread : $ 460
    Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,7 GHz boost

    I stick to AMD. Prejudice? Quite likely.

    [ Mobo : ANB4 (previous machine, now stand-by) + ANB5 have Gigabyte ]

    220219 Mobo AMD : MBASU00311 : Asus : Prime B550+ (Ryzen AM4) : $ 180
    dual M.2 : PCle 4.0 : 1 GB Ethernet : SATA 6 Gbps
    USB 3.2 gen 2 Types A/C : Aura Sync RGB headers support * MBGIG00145 : Gigabyte : X570 Aorus elite WIFI : $ 220
    dual PCle 4.0 M.2 : Intel dual-band 802.11ac wireless
    front USB Type C : RGB Fusion 2.0

    Again, I stick to Gigabyte.

    [ Memory : Kingston has always performed well & 16 GB sb adequate ]

    220222 Memory : MEKIT00581 : Kingston : 2 x 8 = 16 GB $ 110
    DDR4 3600 MHz CL17 dual channel

    What's the largest chip a slot takes? If you can afford it, buy two of
    those. My new mobo takes 16GB, and they were only GB£50 each - £100. If
    you ever want to upgrade the ram, you won't need to "chuck and replace".

    [ Graphics card : this seems to be the big problem.
    There are cheaper cards, but they're all "sold out" :
    apparently, there's a supply problem at present ;
    this was the cheapest in stock in late Feb ]

    220223 Graphix : VCASU00223 : Asus : $ 280
    Phoenix PH-GTX1650-O4GD6 GeForce GTX 1650
    4 GB GDDR6 : 1.41 GHz Core : 128 bit Bus Width
    DisplayPort HDMI DVI
    [ cheapest available : most types sold out : >= $ 60 ]

    Look at the new "combined CPU and Video" chips - most boards have had
    onboard graphics since don't know when, but the newer boards need a
    combined G/CPU for onboard to work.

    [ SSD : Kingston as above : 1 TB sb adequate ]

    220222 SSD : SSKIT00058 : Kingston : 512 GB $ 95
    KC600 SATA3 6 GB/s 2,5" R 550 W 520 MB/s

    * SSKIT00069 : Kingston : 1 TB $ 170
    KC600 SATA3 6 GB/s 2,5" R 550 W 520 MB/s

    SSSAS00105 : Samsung : 500 GB $ 100
    870EVO SATA3 R 560 W 530 MB/s

    SSSAS00106 : Samsung : 1 TB $ 140
    870EVO SATA3 R 560 W 530 MB/s

    SSWEE00015 : W Digital : 500 GB $ 90
    3D NAND SATA R 560 W 530 MB/s

    SSWEE00015 : W Digital : 1 TB $ 140
    3D NAND SATA M.2 2280 R 560 W 530 MB/s

    If you're planning to use the mobo's SATA ports, just make sure you know
    how many will be usable. Both an M2 board and a Graphics board nick PCIe channels, and the mobo may disable SATA ports to free them up ...

    [ HDD : for back-up + alternative OS (Mint).
    ANB5 has Seagate : anyone prefer W Digital & if so, why ? ]

    * 220222 HDD : HDSEA00144 : Seagate : 2 TB $ 55
    SATA 3,5" 7200 RPM

    BarraCuda? That's an SMR drive. Look at the FireCuda instead or even
    better an IronWolf. Only snag is, it'll push the price up. Umm ... the
    firecuda costs a lot more than I thought - a 4TB IronWolf is £84.

    HDWD002115 : W Digital : 1 TB $ 60
    SATA 3,5" 6 GB/s 7200 RPM 64 MB cache

    WD Black? Again, probably SMR. The BarraCuda looks cheaper, bigger, better.

    [ Case : ANB5 has Deepcool, which seems a good price ]

    * 220223 Case : CSDCL00019 : Deepcool : $ 55
    E-Shield 120 mm Fan Radiator Support
    E-ATX/ATX/MicroATX/MiniITX
    00032 : Matrexx 50 $ 60
    00035 : Matrexx 55 MESH $ 70
    PSU Shroud
    00044 : Macube 310P WH $ 80
    Magnetic/CableManagement/FAN HUB Pre-install

    [ Power : ANB5 has Thermaltake : is 700 W likely to be adequate ? ]

    Crumbs. For the system you're spec'ing, 250W is probably adequate. That
    said, at $60 I wouldn't skimp on a decent supply. A stressed supply is
    more likely (a) to blow, and (b) to take out components with it. That
    $60 is money well spent. My PSUs are Corsairs, for no particular reason.

    * 220223 PSU : PSTHL00007 : Thermaltake $ 60
    700 W 80 PLUS
    PSSES00017 : Seasonic $ 60
    FOCUS SSR-650FM 650 W 80+
    Gold Semi-Modular ATX12V/EPS12V Compact 140 mm
    PSCO001438 : Corsair $ 60
    CX-M CX650M 650 W 80+ Bronze
    PSEVG00043 : EVGA $ 60
    600 BQ, 80+ BRONZE 600 W Semi-Modular FDB Fan 3-Yr Warranty
    PSCO100109 : Corsair $ 80
    CX750F RGB 750 W 80+ Bronze Fully Modular

    [ Wifi : currently, I'm using a landline for Internet,
    but my new apartment has free Wifi. Is it standard on Mobos these days ? ]

    Dunno. If it doesn't you should be able to get a USB dongle ...

    Wifi : sb std on mobo

    [ Sound : I've never installed sound on my computers, but it wb nice.
    Do all Mobos have a sound chip today ? -- I'm an utter novice here ]

    Sound : sb available fr mobo, card is opt'l extra

    I think sound has been standard for absolutely years. Note that most
    VDUs are HDMI nowadays - get one with speakers and the sound should come
    out that.

    [ DVD drive : I don't believe I need this anymore ]

    DVD ?

    You don't need it, just get one anyway, they're about £20 max? (Or
    salvage one from an old PC - they're all SATA nowadays anyway.)

    [ These are the specs for the present machine, built Oct 2015 ]

    ANB5

    150914 CPU : AMD X8 FX8370E 8-core 4,3 GHz 16 MB 32 nm 95 W : 259.00
    Direct replacement : 3 yr : 38.85
    150926 Mobo : ASUS M5A97 LE AMD 970/SB8950 DDR3 1866 GHz : 104.99
    150914 Memory : Kingston HyperX Fury 8 GB DDR3 1866 MHz CL10 : 68.99
    150914 Graphix : Asus GT610 810 MHz clock 1200 MHz memory : 74.99
    150914 SSD : Kingston SSDNow V300 240 GB SATA RW 450 MB/s : 109.99
    150914 HDD : Seagate Desktop SATA3 1 TB 64 MB 6 GB/s : 57.99
    Ont recycle fee : 0.75
    150914 DVD : Samsung SH-224FB 24x SATA 1.5 MB : 21.99
    Ont recycle fee : 0.75
    150917 Case : Deepcool Terraract BF : 39.99
    150917 PSU : Thermaltake TR2 500 W : 59.99

    ANB4 ANB5 have Gigabyte mobo (ANB5 had Asus, wh had 2 defects) ;
    ANB1-3 had Asus mobo (ANB2 orig'ly had Soyo)

    [ 'ANB' = 'Aristotle's new body' : Aristotle was my original XT in 1989
    & when I built my 1st machine in 2000, it was his 1st new body,
    since when he's been my computer spirit (smile).
    I'm a Classicist by training & wrote my PhD thesis on the philosopher.
    I have a mathematical side too ]

    For your hard drive, SMR will be fine for backups. I'd try and create
    two 50GB partitions for /gentoo and /mint on the SSD. Try and use UEFI
    for boot, it'll probably make booting simpler. I've got
    BIOS/GRUB/gentoo+SUSE and they trample on each other :-( Then you've got
    900GB for /home etc.

    I'd put LVM on the backup drive, so you can create snapshots of your
    backups and do full backups with an incremental copy - look at rsync
    with --in-place. That makes the BarraCuda even better value ...

    Cheers,
    Wol

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dale@21:1/5 to Wols Lists on Wed Mar 2 23:10:01 2022
    Wols Lists wrote:
    On 02/03/2022 19:39, Philip Webb wrote:


    [ Memory : Kingston has always performed well &  16 GB  sb adequate ]

       220222 Memory : MEKIT00581 : Kingston : 2 x 8 = 16
    GB               $ 110
                        DDR4 3600 MHz CL17 dual channel

    What's the largest chip a slot takes? If you can afford it, buy two of
    those. My new mobo takes 16GB, and they were only GB£50 each - £100.
    If you ever want to upgrade the ram, you won't need to "chuck and
    replace".

    I agree with this because I've made this mistake, twice.  Find out the
    largest size that will fit in each slot and buy to enough of them to
    cover your needs.  When you need to expand, just plug in a extra stick,
    or two. 

    Depending on what you do, 16GBs may be enough.  I have 32GBs on mine and
    quite often during updates I hit 20GBs of memory in use.  I'm not
    including cache or anything, actually memory in use by the system.  If
    you need to save on cash and upgrade later, one could likely adjust the
    memory used during large updates by using load options etc with emerge. 
    I don't know why but it seems I get hit with a Firefox, libreoffice and
    some other large package at the same time quite often.  It takes up a
    lot of memory doing those.  I just thought it worth a mention but you
    may have a different demand than I do. 


    [ HDD : for back-up + alternative OS (Mint).
    ANB5 has Seagate : anyone prefer W Digital & if so, why ? ]

    * 220222 HDD : HDSEA00144 : Seagate : 2 TB                           
    $  55
                     SATA 3,5" 7200 RPM

    BarraCuda? That's an SMR drive. Look at the FireCuda instead or even
    better an IronWolf. Only snag is, it'll push the price up. Umm ... the firecuda costs a lot more than I thought - a 4TB IronWolf is £84.

    On this, good point.  I have a SMR drive, didn't know it when I bought
    it, and I use it for a external backup that is done weekly.  Even with
    that, it is a bit annoying.  Even when it is done, it isn't really done
    yet.  I would not use this for anything where you might have a lot of
    large writes.  Once it hits a certain point, varies by drive, it gets
    slow and can get really slow.  I've seen old IDE drives that could be faster.  If unsure, post the model and I'm sure someone can tell you if
    it is CMR or SMR.  CMR = good, SMR = bad in some, maybe most,
    circumstances.  I don't know how true this is but I've read SMR and RAID
    is bad, btfrs(sp?) and similar file systems can also be bad.  Research
    and weigh based on what will work for you.  SMR can save you some cash, sometimes. 


    [ Case : ANB5 has Deepcool, which seems a good price ]

    * 220223 Case : CSDCL00019 : Deepcool :                              
    $  55
                      E-Shield 120 mm Fan  Radiator Support
                      E-ATX/ATX/MicroATX/MiniITX
                     00032 : Matrexx
    50                                    $  60
                     00035 : Matrexx 55
    MESH                               $  70
                      PSU Shroud
                     00044 : Macube 310P
    WH                                $  80
                      Magnetic/CableManagement/FAN HUB Pre-install

    [ Power : ANB5 has Thermaltake : is  700 W  likely to be adequate ? ]

    Crumbs. For the system you're spec'ing, 250W is probably adequate.
    That said, at $60 I wouldn't skimp on a decent supply. A stressed
    supply is more likely (a) to blow, and (b) to take out components with
    it. That $60 is money well spent. My PSUs are Corsairs, for no
    particular reason.

    I agree with this.  A badly designed power supply can really cost you if
    it goes out.  I think mine is a Thermaltake but only a few models are
    really good.  There is a thread on overclockers forum that lists power supplies by model and if they passed the tests they ran.  It also
    explains how good the protection is when the power supply goes bad.  I
    don't know how up to date that list is but don't skimp to much on this. 
    I had a fan go out on one of my Thermaltakes and it ran for a bit but
    blew smoke and died.  Thing is, it shut down nicely and a new power
    supply got me running again.  You want one that has good protections in
    place otherwise, you could be building a new rig. 

    Hope that helps. 

    Dale

    :-)  :-) 

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Wol@21:1/5 to Dale on Wed Mar 2 23:30:01 2022
    On 02/03/2022 22:01, Dale wrote:
    If unsure, post the model and I'm sure someone can tell you if
    it is CMR or SMR.  CMR = good, SMR = bad in some, maybe most, circumstances.  I don't know how true this is but I've read SMR and RAID
    is bad, btfrs(sp?) and similar file systems can also be bad.  Research
    and weigh based on what will work for you.  SMR can save you some cash, sometimes.

    The Seagate is a BarraCuda. Not a Barracuda. Note the slightly different spelling.

    All new BarraCudas are SMR.

    I think the WD is a Black, which is also almost certainly SMR. WD
    shafted a lot of people by shipping SMR and not telling anyone. At least Seagate appear to have been open about it.

    And yes, raid and SMR do not go well together.

    Cheers,
    Wol

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dale@21:1/5 to Laurence Perkins on Thu Mar 3 02:10:01 2022
    Laurence Perkins wrote:
    With regard to SMR drives, note that there are three basic types:

    Some completely hide the fact that they are SMR. These suck, hands down. Performance is unpredictable and random.
    Some at least advertise that they're SMR, and expose basic counters about where they are in their maintenance cycles. These still suck, but at least you can kind of predict when they're about to get really slow.

    The best ones actually advertise what the shingled ranges are, at which point a new enough kernel and filesystem can keep the writes to those ranges as sequential as possible, and you can use the big, cheap drives with very little performance loss.

    There are a couple articles explaining how to determine what you've got and optimize it. I don't have my bookmarks to hand, but it was in a discussion on this list a few months ago.

    LMP


    That's some new info.  I tend to follow threads, even started one ages
    ago about my hard drive doing a bumpy thing for a long time after I
    updated my backups.  Rich plus others informed me I unknowingly bought a
    SMR drive.  I think mine has about a 15 or 20GB CMR section.  I've
    noticed if my updates go to about that much or more, it gets slow. 
    Either way, it does the bumpy thing for a good while after my backups
    are done and I've unmounted the drive.  I just let it sit there until it
    gets done.  If I don't, it just slows down faster the next time because
    it starts out behind on moving the files from CMR to SMR and doing its
    rewrite thing. 

    My biggest point for the OP, look at its use and pick what works as
    expected.  I've read, and Wol seems to confirm this, that RAID and SMR
    do not go together well.  I've read some have hosed RAID thingys when
    they put in a SMR drive and didn't know it. 

    The biggest problem I have is when they don't let us know when a drive
    is SMR.  I don't like a company that sells me something that isn't as
    good without telling me.  It sort of rubs me the wrong way. 

    To the OP tho, research first, then buy.  Know what you getting and that
    it will work for your needs.  As I said, for the most part, my backup
    drive being SMR is mostly a little annoying.  It does work.  I just
    won't do it again tho.

    Dale

    :-)  :-) 

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Julien Roy@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 3 21:30:01 2022
    This is exactly what happened to me. I unknowingly bought SMR drives (I didn't know the difference, but the drives were "RAID" rated, whatever that means. SMR drives obviously aren't "RAID" anything.) Well, when was the time to expand my RAID, it wouldn'
    t work.
    Needless to say, I will not be buying any product from WD anymore.

    Julien




    This is what I like about this list.  Sharing info.  It's good to know
    that the software is catching up.  It would have been nice if WD,
    Seagate etc had let the software people in on this info before they
    started releasing the products.  It appears they didn't to me. 
    Releasing it in stealth mode didn't help them any in my opinion.  They angered a lot of people it would seem.  If they had alerted the people
    who develop the software for file systems and RAID, it could have saved
    a LOT of grief and possibly lose of data. 

    This should also help the OP in the event he buys a SMR to save a little where it will work.  It should help others who unknowingly bought a SMR drive as well.  I need to look into enabling those options in my kernel
    and with the file system tools.  It may help with my external drive as well.  Maybe reduce the bumpy thing a bit.  lol

    Thanks for the link. 

    Dale

    :-)  :-) 



    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body>
    <div>This is exactly what happened to me. I unknowingly bought SMR drives (I didn't know the difference, but the drives were "RAID" rated, whatever that means. SMR drives obviously aren't "RAID" anything.) Well, when was the time to expand my RAID, it
    wouldn't work.<br></div><div dir="auto">Needless to say, I will not be buying any product from WD anymore.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div>Julien<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px
    solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div><br></div><div>This is what I like about this list.&nbsp; Sharing info.&nbsp; It's good to know<br></div><div>that the software is catching up.&nbsp; It would have been nice if WD,<br></div><div>
    Seagate etc had let the software people in on this info before they<br></div><div>started releasing the products.&nbsp; It appears they didn't to me.&nbsp;<br></div><div>Releasing it in stealth mode didn't help them any in my opinion.&nbsp; They<br></div>
    <div>angered a lot of people it would seem.&nbsp; If they had alerted the people<br></div><div>who develop the software for file systems and RAID, it could have saved<br></div><div>a LOT of grief and possibly lose of data.&nbsp;<br></div><div><br></div><
    This should also help the OP in the event he buys a SMR to save a little<br></div><div>where it will work.&nbsp; It should help others who unknowingly bought a SMR<br></div><div>drive as well.&nbsp; I need to look into enabling those options in my
    kernel<br></div><div>and with the file system tools.&nbsp; It may help with my external drive as<br></div><div>well.&nbsp; Maybe reduce the bumpy thing a bit.&nbsp; lol<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the link.&nbsp;<br></div><div><br></div><div>
    Dale<br></div><div><br></div><div>:-)&nbsp; :-)&nbsp;<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div> </body>
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  • From Dale@21:1/5 to Laurence Perkins on Thu Mar 3 21:20:01 2022
    Laurence Perkins wrote:

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>
    Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 5:08 PM
    To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
    Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] planning a new machine : comments welcome

    Laurence Perkins wrote:
    With regard to SMR drives, note that there are three basic types:

    Some completely hide the fact that they are SMR. These suck, hands down. Performance is unpredictable and random.
    Some at least advertise that they're SMR, and expose basic counters about where they are in their maintenance cycles. These still suck, but at least you can kind of predict when they're about to get really slow.

    The best ones actually advertise what the shingled ranges are, at which point a new enough kernel and filesystem can keep the writes to those ranges as sequential as possible, and you can use the big, cheap drives with very little performance loss.

    There are a couple articles explaining how to determine what you've got and optimize it. I don't have my bookmarks to hand, but it was in a discussion on this list a few months ago.

    LMP

    That's some new info. I tend to follow threads, even started one ages ago about my hard drive doing a bumpy thing for a long time after I updated my backups. Rich plus others informed me I unknowingly bought a SMR drive. I think mine has about a 15
    or 20GB CMR section. I've noticed if my updates go to about that much or more, it gets slow. Either way, it does the bumpy thing for a good while after my backups are done and I've unmounted the drive. I just let it sit there until it gets done. If I
    don't, it just slows down faster the next time because it starts out behind on moving the files from CMR to SMR and doing its rewrite thing.

    My biggest point for the OP, look at its use and pick what works as expected. I've read, and Wol seems to confirm this, that RAID and SMR do not go together well. I've read some have hosed RAID thingys when they put in a SMR drive and didn't know it.

    The biggest problem I have is when they don't let us know when a drive is SMR. I don't like a company that sells me something that isn't as good without telling me. It sort of rubs me the wrong way.

    To the OP tho, research first, then buy. Know what you getting and that it will work for your needs. As I said, for the most part, my backup drive being SMR is mostly a little annoying. It does work. I just won't do it again tho.

    Dale

    :-) :-)


    Yeah, A lot of RAID controllers will see the bumpy performance and error out. Some vendors are starting to update their firmware though.
    You're not alone in being upset about manufacturers trying to sneak SMR in without telling anyone. The CCTV industry kind of took them to the woodshed over it.
    BTRFS got patches for detecting and optimizing zoned drives in 2020.
    EXT4 has a format-time option for it at this point.
    F2FS and NILFS2 are both designed to write a disk end-to-end sequentially for wear-levelling purpose and while they're not the fastest, they also don't see significant performance degradation from SMR except during schedulable maintenance operations.
    https://zonedstorage.io/ has a good list of reference material for figuring out what you've got and getting it configured in the best way.

    LMP


    This is what I like about this list.  Sharing info.  It's good to know
    that the software is catching up.  It would have been nice if WD,
    Seagate etc had let the software people in on this info before they
    started releasing the products.  It appears they didn't to me. 
    Releasing it in stealth mode didn't help them any in my opinion.  They
    angered a lot of people it would seem.  If they had alerted the people
    who develop the software for file systems and RAID, it could have saved
    a LOT of grief and possibly lose of data. 

    This should also help the OP in the event he buys a SMR to save a little
    where it will work.  It should help others who unknowingly bought a SMR
    drive as well.  I need to look into enabling those options in my kernel
    and with the file system tools.  It may help with my external drive as
    well.  Maybe reduce the bumpy thing a bit.  lol

    Thanks for the link. 

    Dale

    :-)  :-) 

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  • From Mark Knecht@21:1/5 to purslow@ca.inter.net on Thu Mar 3 22:10:01 2022
    On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 12:40 PM Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:

    After > 6 years , I'm planning to build a new machine ANB6.
    The present machine ANB5 -- details at end -- continues to perform well,
    but I can't rely on that for ever.

    I use it for everyday desktop work + fun.
    The weekly Gentoo update is the main stressor, for which ANB5 is adequate, but it's always nice to get a bit more speed & avoid too much heat-up.

    I expect to buy the parts from the local store
    -- Canada Computers in Downtown Toronto -- & prices below are in CAD.
    I'm price-sensitive, but willing to pay a bit more for a better part.
    Here's the list + a few comments ; '*' denotes presently prefered item :
    <SNIP>

    You've gotten some great answers/responses so far. I've just been through
    (and am still sort of sorting through) the same situation. My main machine
    was an i7 980 Extreme processor I built back in about 2013. I ran Gentoo
    on it until about 3-4 years ago when 2 things happened:

    1) I was just spending too much time building code

    2) Gentoo as a distribution went through a period when it seemed for
    me that I could no longer just run a stable version and get apps to work

    At that time I switched to Kubuntu which out of the box supported two commercial apps I run all the time - PixInsight and Mixbus. However about
    2-3 years ago Google changed the processor requirements for
    tensorflow and I could no longer run that so finally about a month ago
    I built a new Ryzen 5950X liquid-cooled machine. Jobs that took
    6 hours on the old machine are now done in under 10 minutes. It's a
    whole new world.

    A few things for you to consider:

    1) Do you really need/want all your storage in this machine. Wol
    encouraged me a few months ago to look at using an old machine
    as a backup server. I settled on TrueNAS Core which runs great
    on a 4 core/8 core type machine. I built 2 of them, the first as a
    24/7 file server and a second to back up the first.

    2) The new machine, based on an Asus x57u0 motherboard,
    has 2 M.2 slots. I put 1TB M.2 SSDs in them. One has Windows
    and at this time the other has Kubuntu 21.10.

    3) I also got a PCI Express card for a 3rd M.2 which has 128GB
    in it just for playing around. It's slower than the two on the MB. Cost
    was about $35 for the card and the M.2

    In my case I seldom need all my data on my desktop machine. I
    do astrophotography which generates a few GB of data every
    night but the Raspberry Pi streams that onto the file server as
    pictures come out of the camera. In the morning I grab a copy
    over Gigabit, process locally, keep the result and delete the local
    copy.

    Same sort of story with Mixbus - studio level audio recording
    based on Ardour. I seldom work on more than 1 or 2 songs at
    a time so I don't need the 100 or so songs in my library to be
    local.

    If you go the M.2 direction - which you really want for speed -
    then remember they are installed with heat conducting tape
    and I suspect won't be easy to change a few years down the
    road.

    I currently have no traditional disks or SSD's in this machine.

    The machine isn't silent, but it's very, very quiet with an
    AIO (All-In-One) liquid cooler for the processor.

    I went overboard on the GPU getting a 3080 ti which is
    a dream for tensorflow and will, if I ever use Windows,
    be fun for gaming. However you could buy a used
    Honda for less than I paid for this card.

    I'm currently considering coming back to Gentoo but
    monitoring this list the number of maintenance problems
    people have scares me. Not sure I have the stomach
    for that anymore.

    Best wishes for your new build. I'm sure you'll love it
    when you make the move.

    Cheers,
    Mark

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  • From Dale@21:1/5 to Julien Roy on Thu Mar 3 21:40:01 2022
    Julien Roy wrote:
    This is exactly what happened to me. I unknowingly bought SMR drives
    (I didn't know the difference, but the drives were "RAID" rated,
    whatever that means. SMR drives obviously aren't "RAID" anything.)
    Well, when was the time to expand my RAID, it wouldn't work.
    Needless to say, I will not be buying any product from WD anymore.

    Julien



    From my understanding, it wasn't just WD.  I don't think any of them
    alerted people as to what they were getting.  I recently bought a WD and
    will again because I could have easily bought a Seagate or any other
    brand that was SMR without knowing it.  WD just so happened to be the
    first one I found with a good price is all. 

    Still, I don't like that any of them pulled this stealth release tho. 
    For most, it most likely didn't matter but for some, it was a disaster.  Possibly a costly disaster at that. 

    We learned tho.

    Dale

    :-)  :-) 

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  • From Mark Knecht@21:1/5 to rdalek1967@gmail.com on Thu Mar 3 22:10:02 2022
    On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 1:38 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

    Julien Roy wrote:
    This is exactly what happened to me. I unknowingly bought SMR drives
    (I didn't know the difference, but the drives were "RAID" rated,
    whatever that means. SMR drives obviously aren't "RAID" anything.)
    Well, when was the time to expand my RAID, it wouldn't work.
    Needless to say, I will not be buying any product from WD anymore.

    Julien



    From my understanding, it wasn't just WD. I don't think any of them
    alerted people as to what they were getting. I recently bought a WD and
    will again because I could have easily bought a Seagate or any other
    brand that was SMR without knowing it. WD just so happened to be the
    first one I found with a good price is all.

    Still, I don't like that any of them pulled this stealth release tho.
    For most, it most likely didn't matter but for some, it was a disaster. Possibly a costly disaster at that.

    We learned tho.

    Dale

    Truthfully I don't think WD or the others understood the problem early
    on. At first they denied there was a problem, and actually I don't think
    there really is a problem setting up a RAID system using an SMR drive.
    Where the problem showed up was during resivering which isn't
    something everyone does every day. It was during resilvering that
    the SMR drives failed, and once WD (and others) saw the data
    WD rebranded the Red series in Red and Red Plus, with the Plus
    version being CMR. I've resilvered using a couple of Red Plus 4TB
    drives and everything is good so far.

    My 2 cents,
    Mark

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  • From Julien Roy@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 3 22:20:01 2022
    The WD Reds are still marketted as RAID compatible to this day, despite the fact that they are SMRs.

    Julien



    Mar 3, 2022, 16:08 by markknecht@gmail.com:


    Truthfully I don't think WD or the others understood the problem early
    on. At first they denied there was a problem, and actually I don't think there really is a problem setting up a RAID system using an SMR drive.
    Where the problem showed up was during resivering which isn't
    something everyone does every day. It was during resilvering that
    the SMR drives failed, and once WD (and others) saw the data
    WD rebranded the Red series in Red and Red Plus, with the Plus
    version being CMR. I've resilvered using a couple of Red Plus 4TB
    drives and everything is good so far.

    My 2 cents,
    Mark



    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body>
    <div>The WD Reds are still marketted as RAID compatible to this day, despite the fact that they are SMRs.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div>Julien<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Mar 3, 2022, 16:08 by markknecht@gmail.com:
    <br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div><br></div><div>Truthfully I don't think WD or the others understood the problem early<br></div><div>on. At first they denied
    there was a problem, and actually I don't think<br></div><div>there really is a problem setting up a RAID system using an SMR drive.<br></div><div>Where the problem showed up was during resivering which isn't<br></div><div>something everyone does every
    day. It was during resilvering that<br></div><div>the SMR drives failed, and once WD (and others) saw the data<br></div><div>WD rebranded the Red series in Red and Red Plus, with the Plus<br></div><div>version being CMR. I've resilvered using a couple of
    Red Plus 4TB<br></div><div>drives and everything is good so far.<br></div><div><br></div><div>My 2 cents,<br></div><div>Mark<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div> </body>
    </html>

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  • From Mark Knecht@21:1/5 to julien@jroy.ca on Thu Mar 3 22:30:01 2022
    On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 2:11 PM Julien Roy <julien@jroy.ca> wrote:

    The WD Reds are still marketted as RAID compatible to this day, despite the fact that they are SMRs.

    Julien


    18 months ago WD put out this statement:

    https://blog.westerndigital.com/wd-red-nas-drives/

    If by 'marketed' you mean Amazon or Newegg or some other seller is telling people that the SMR is a good RAID solution I wouldn't say that's on WD
    but rather the vendor.

    Just my 2 cents,
    Mark

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  • From Julien Roy@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 4 00:00:01 2022
    Even of WD's official page for WD Reds, they are still advertised for RAID: https://www.westerndigital.com/products/internal-drives/wd-red-sata-hdd#WD20EFAX

    For instance : 
    ●  Reliability: The always-on environment of a NAS or RAID is a hot one, and desktop drives aren’t typically designed and tested under those conditions like WD Red™ is.
    ●  Error recovery controls: WD Red™ NAS hard drives are specifically designed with RAID error recovery control to help reduce failures within the NAS system.

    Or:

    Designed with SMR technology for workloads associated with personal and home office, such as storing, archiving and sharing, in RAID-optimized NAS systems with up to 8 bays.

    This isn't just NewEgg or Amazon puting outdated information on the product page, it is WD still advertising today that the SMR WD Reds are appropriate for RAIDs, while they are, in fact, not.

    Regarding the blogpost: I don't think a blogpost is appropriate for a company to correct information about deffective product, when the advertising for the said product remains uncorrected.
    Nevertheless, even in their blogpost, they aren't being entirely honest, since they still claim that WD Reds are appropriate for RAIDs:

    "In a RAID rebuild scenario using a typical Synology or QNAP (non-ZFS) platform, WD Red DMSMR drives perform as well as CMR drives or show slightly longer RAID rebuild times, depending on the condition of the drive and extent of rebuild required."
    They double down on this further in the blogpost.

    From some quick research, this is only true in a RAD1 array. In any other type of array, it is sometimes impossible to expand or rebuild the array with SMR drives.
    See: https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Timeout_Mismatch


    Julien



    Mar 3, 2022, 16:27 by markknecht@gmail.com:

    On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 2:11 PM Julien Roy <julien@jroy.ca> wrote:


    The WD Reds are still marketted as RAID compatible to this day, despite the fact that they are SMRs.

    Julien


    18 months ago WD put out this statement:

    https://blog.westerndigital.com/wd-red-nas-drives/

    If by 'marketed' you mean Amazon or Newegg or some other seller is telling people that the SMR is a good RAID solution I wouldn't say that's on WD
    but rather the vendor.

    Just my 2 cents,
    Mark



    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body>
    <div>Even of WD's official page for WD Reds, they are still advertised for RAID:&nbsp;<a href="https://www.westerndigital.com/products/internal-drives/wd-red-sata-hdd#WD20EFAX">https://www.westerndigital.com/products/internal-drives/wd-red-sata-hdd#
    WD20EFAX</a><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">For instance :&nbsp;<br></div><div>●&nbsp;&nbsp;<b>Reliability</b>: The always-on environment of a NAS or
    RAID is a hot one, and desktop drives aren’t typically designed and
    tested under those conditions like WD Red™ is.<br></div><div> ●&nbsp;&nbsp;<b>Error recovery controls</b>: WD Red™ NAS hard drives are
    specifically designed with RAID error recovery control to help reduce failures within the NAS system.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Or:<br></div><div class=""><div class=""><p>Designed
    with SMR technology for workloads associated with personal and home
    office, such as storing, archiving and sharing, in RAID-optimized NAS
    systems with up to 8 bays.<br></p></div></div><div dir="auto">This isn't just NewEgg or Amazon puting outdated information on the product page, it is WD still advertising today that the SMR WD Reds are appropriate for RAIDs, while they are, in fact, not.<
    </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Regarding the blogpost: I don't think a blogpost is appropriate for a company to correct information about deffective product, when the advertising for the said product remains uncorrected.<br></div><div
    dir="auto">Nevertheless, even in their blogpost, they aren't being entirely honest, since they still claim that WD Reds are appropriate for RAIDs:<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><i>"In a RAID rebuild scenario using a typical Synology
    or QNAP (non-ZFS)
    platform, WD Red DMSMR drives perform as well as CMR drives or show
    slightly longer RAID rebuild times, depending on the condition of the
    drive and extent of rebuild required."</i><br></div><div dir="auto">They double down on this further in the blogpost.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">From some quick research, this is only true in a RAD1 array. In any other type of
    array, it is sometimes impossible to expand or rebuild the array with SMR drives.<br></div><div dir="auto">See:&nbsp;<a href="https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Timeout_Mismatch">https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Timeout_Mismatch</a><br></div><
    div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Julien<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Mar 3, 2022, 16:27 by markknecht@gmail.com:<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #
    93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 2:11 PM Julien Roy &lt;julien@jroy.ca&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote><div><br></div><div>The WD Reds are still marketted as RAID compatible to this day, despite the fact that
    they are SMRs.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Julien<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>18 months ago WD put out this statement:<br></div><div><br></div><div>https://blog.westerndigital.com/wd-red-nas-drives/<br></div><div><br></div><div>If by '
    marketed' you mean Amazon or Newegg or some other seller is telling<br></div><div>people that the SMR is a good RAID solution I wouldn't say that's on WD<br></div><div>but rather the vendor.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Just my 2 cents,<br></div><div>
    Mark<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div> </body>
    </html>

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  • From Wols Lists@21:1/5 to Laurence Perkins on Fri Mar 4 23:00:01 2022
    On 04/03/2022 21:18, Laurence Perkins wrote:
    I’d probably wait another year for all the bugs to work their way out of the system before trying it on purpose, but if you have non-critical
    systems to play with, well, the SMR drives are rather a lot cheaper…  I got a few for one of my server chassis because they can cram 5TB of
    storage into a 2.5” drive that fits in the bay for only $120.

    But are they?

    Okay, this is a 3.5", but I paid £180 I think for 8TB in a decent CMR
    package (Toshiba N300). It was a backup drive, I was open to SMR, but
    didn't think they were value for money.

    Cheers,
    Wol

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  • From Mark Knecht@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 4 23:50:01 2022
    <SNIP>



    3.5" gives a lot more platter area. Pi-r-squared and all that. I couldn't find anything larger than 1TB CMR in a 2.5" package from anyone, and those were old stock. Seagate doesn't make *any* CMR 2.5" anymore, not even the 500GB ones.
    Even flash devices are going zoned it seems. Simplifies the controller and lets you cram more storage onto the chips.

    Unfortunately the chassis in question only takes 2.5" or smaller. Otherwise I would definitely have preferred some 3.5", 12TB CMR surveillance-grade drives.

    LMP

    This sort of problem is why I went the direction of 1TB M.2 internally
    and a 16TB RAID1 TrueNAS file server externally. I don't think this
    would work for gamers but for me it's a nice enough solution where all
    the spinning rust is in another box.

    - Mark

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  • From Frank Steinmetzger@21:1/5 to WOL on Mon Mar 7 02:10:01 2022
    Am Wed, Mar 02, 2022 at 02:39:26PM -0500 schrieb Philip Webb:

    After > 6 years , I'm planning to build a new machine ANB6.

    Ah, the endorphin rush of planning a new PC. :)

    My PC is now 7½ years old. I’m starting to think to upgrade its i5-4590 to a Ryzen, too. Was thinking of holding out for the new 7000 generation with its powerful RDNA2 graphics, but alas, it’s infested with Microsoft Pluton. So now I can’t decide what to do.

    Here's the list + a few comments ; '*' denotes presently prefered item :

    ANB6

    [ CPU : not much difference, but comments very welcome.
    ----------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    On the contrary, they are quite different, all three of them. See below.

    I've had good luck with AMD in the past, less so with Intel ]

    220208 CPU AMD : CPAMD00131 : Ryzen 7 : 5700G : 8-core 16-thread : $ 388
    Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,6 GHz : Radeon Graphix Wreath Stealth

    If you don’t do games, the 5700G will make you not require a dedicated graphics card (the G is for graphics).

    Apropos: I recently read a news article that AMD is going to include a small integrated graphics unit into all of their chips in the future, much like
    Intel has done until now. That iGPU will be about as powerful as a my i5’s from 2015 (around 0.4 Tflops). So if you can wait for the next generation, maybe that’s another option.

    00055 : Ryzen 7 : 3700X : 7 nm : 8-core 16-thread : $ 400
    Socket AM4 : 3,6 / 4,4 GHz

    That’s a Zen 2 chip. Are you sure you want an already outdated CPU for a machine that is to last many years? On Gentoo even? Especially for that
    price.

    * 00110 : Ryzen 7 : 5800X : ZEN 3 : 7 nm : 8-core 16-thread : $ 460
    Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,7 GHz boost

    That’s the most powerful of the three, but also the most power hungry one. The 5700G is a different architecture—basically mobile hardware in a desktop package. The 5800X OTOH has a different chiplet design which gives it twice
    the cache (but no iGPU), but which also causes it to consume and heat up
    more.

    [ Mobo : ANB4 (previous machine, now stand-by) + ANB5 have Gigabyte ]

    220219 Mobo AMD : MBASU00311 : Asus : Prime B550+ (Ryzen AM4) : $ 180
    dual M.2 : PCle 4.0 : 1 GB Ethernet : SATA 6 Gbps
    USB 3.2 gen 2 Types A/C : Aura Sync RGB headers support * MBGIG00145 : Gigabyte : X570 Aorus elite WIFI : $ 220
    dual PCle 4.0 M.2 : Intel dual-band 802.11ac wireless
    front USB Type C : RGB Fusion 2.0

    The latter has 2.5 Gb ethernet onboard and USB 3.2 Gen 2x2. That might come
    in handy in a few years. OTOH, the X570 chipset definitely draws more power. Unless you really need some of X570 high-performance features, I’d recommend a cheaper (and more efficient) B-series chipset board.

    It seems the Canada Computers website does not value technical
    specifications much, I can’t find a detailed listing there. So here’s a comparison of the two boads (on that site there is no Elite WIFI, but one
    other Elite model):
    https://skinflint.co.uk/?cmp=2295489&cmp=2644171

    [ Memory : Kingston has always performed well & 16 GB sb adequate ]

    220222 Memory : MEKIT00581 : Kingston : 2 x 8 = 16 GB $ 110
    DDR4 3600 MHz CL17 dual channel

    Your chosen CPUs can only support up to DDR4-3200. With a slower kit you
    might save a few pennies. (or not, price differences are very tight). And
    then select the one with the lowest latency (the number behind the “CL”).

    I’d also say if you can afford it, go for a kit with two 16 GB sticks, so
    you have room for upgrades later without having to get rid of the old ones.

    [ Graphics card : this seems to be the big problem. There are cheaper
    cards, but they're all "sold out" : apparently, there's a supply problem
    at present ; this was the cheapest in stock in late Feb ]

    As mentioned; if you buy the 5700G, you don’t need one, unless you need a
    lot of graphics power. The 5700G graphics achieves about 2 Tflops, which is
    the same as my 130 W graphics card from 2015.

    Also beware: the GPU model you chose is from NVidia. They are a pain to run under Linux.

    [ SSD : Kingston as above : 1 TB sb adequate ]

    220222 SSD : SSKIT00058 : Kingston : 512 GB $ 95
    KC600 SATA3 6 GB/s 2,5" R 550 W 520 MB/s

    * SSKIT00069 : Kingston : 1 TB $ 170
    KC600 SATA3 6 GB/s 2,5" R 550 W 520 MB/s

    The boards you chose have several m.2 slots. This form factor has the nice advantage that it doesn’t need any cabling.

    SSSAS00105 : Samsung : 500 GB $ 100
    870EVO SATA3 R 560 W 530 MB/s

    SSSAS00106 : Samsung : 1 TB $ 140
    870EVO SATA3 R 560 W 530 MB/s

    I have no bad experience with or opinion about Kingston. But they buy components for their drives from other companies, whereas Samsung, WD and Micron (Crucial) do everything in-house. So there is a bigger guarantee that you get quality components. Manufacturers tend to swap out components these days depending on available supply. There has been upheaval about companies sending out review items to the press and then silently replacing the
    internals with cheaper stuff later on, even going so far as to replace TLC
    with much slower QLC NAND. (Sadly, Samsung and WD are among the culprits.)

    SSWEE00015 : W Digital : 500 GB $ 90
    3D NAND SATA R 560 W 530 MB/s

    SSWEE00015 : W Digital : 1 TB $ 140
    3D NAND SATA M.2 2280 R 560 W 530 MB/s

    There seems to be a mistake: the product code is the same for both.

    Why do you only choose SATA SSDs? PCIe SSDs are much much faster. During
    normal operation, you won’t notice it much, but especially IOPs are considerably higher than with SATA, meaning a big boost when you are dealing with many small files (portage, anyone?).

    WOL said:
    If you're planning to use the mobo's SATA ports, just make sure you know how >> many will be usable. Both an M2 board and a Graphics board nick PCIe
    channels, and the mobo may disable SATA ports to free them up ...

    The “main” m.2 slot is connected directly to the CPU via 4×PCIe (3.0 for the
    5700G, 4.0 for the other two). Those lanes are not available for any other purposes. The remaining m.2 slots are hooked up via the chipset, and the
    board manufacturer may decide how to distribute the available lanes.

    [ HDD : for back-up + alternative OS (Mint).
    ANB5 has Seagate : anyone prefer W Digital & if so, why ? ]

    * 220222 HDD : HDSEA00144 : Seagate : 2 TB $ 55
    SATA 3,5" 7200 RPM

    HDWD002115 : W Digital : 1 TB $ 60
    SATA 3,5" 6 GB/s 7200 RPM 64 MB cache

    WOL said:
    WD Black? Again, probably SMR. The BarraCuda looks cheaper, bigger, better.

    No, blacks are not. WD has done itself a great disservice with the hidden SMR migration, but blacks are supposed to be the top-performance series.
    See for yourself; no SMR-drive in the line-up: https://skinflint.co.uk/?cat=hde7s&xf=10287_WDuscBLACK%7E3772_3.5%7E957_Western+Digital

    However, fast-spinning 7200 rpm drives draw more power, thus produce more
    heat and especially vibration and thus noise. If it’s just for backup and
    the occasional experiment with an OS, I’d suggest a slower-spinning alternative.

    According to https://skinflint.co.uk/?cat=hde7s&xf=10287_Blue%7E3772_3.5%7E8457_non-SMR%7E957_Western+Digital%7E959_5400
    the WD blue is available with up to 6 TB as a non-SMR slow-rotating alternative. Beware: there are also 7200 rpm blues in all sizes.
    (On a sidenote, slow spinning WD Reds are also only available up to 6 TB, anything bigger is 7200 rpm.)

    Also, the price difference between 2 and a few more TB is not big. Why not
    go for a little more, to be future-proof?

    OTOH, I am actually planning on replacing my current setup of 500 GB SATA
    SSD (for system and home) plus 1 TB HDD (WD blue for bulk data) with a
    single M.2 PCIe SSD of 2 TB. Right now the HDD is the loudest component and
    I want to quieten it down.

    So instead of an SSD *and* an HDD, I propose to consider a single 2 TB PCIe
    SSD instead. Good models are the Samsung 970 Plus or the WD Black SN750. A little cheaper (and slower, but still much faster than SATA) is the WD Blue SN550 2 TB. But beware: SN550 models smaller than 2 TB are subject to covert component swapping.

    [ Power : ANB5 has Thermaltake : is 700 W likely to be adequate ? ]

    Without a GPU, even 300 would be fine. With a GPU, I’d say around 500…600. But I’m not a gamer. I’ve been running with my i5 (84 W) and a Radeon GPU (130 W) with a 300 W PSU for the entire 7½ years now. But back then, TDP
    meant maximum. Nowadays, the actual power draw is much more fluently
    defined.

    [ Wifi : currently, I'm using a landline for Internet,
    but my new apartment has free Wifi. Is it standard on Mobos these days ? ]

    No, some have it, some don’t. But I’d always prefer cable if possible. You don’t have radio interference from the neighbors, higher and more stable throughput and better security.

    [ Sound : I've never installed sound on my computers, but it wb nice.

    Really? I’m baffled. Don’t you listen to any music or watch videos sometimes (well on the computer, I mean)?

    Do all Mobos have a sound chip today ? -- I'm an utter novice here ]

    Yes (unless you consider a server board). Their functionality and quality varies. Basically, the higher the ALC model number, the “better”. There are those who deem on-board chips inferior. But if you don’t have the highest quality requirements or do audio productions which need very low noise, then you’ll be fine.

    [ DVD drive : I don't believe I need this anymore ]

    DVD ?

    I do use them from time to time to watch DVDs that I own or took out from
    the library. I don’t do any of this streaming business.

    Why not use the one from ANB5? I postulate there hasn’t been any technological progress in the last decade, so ye olde drive will do just
    fine.

    --
    Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
    Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

    Sugar-free, homeopathic medicine for children: blowing.

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  • From Philip Webb@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 7 04:00:01 2022
    Thanks for all the replies so far : they have been carefully saved.
    Clearly, I need to look up component specs on the I/net
    & try to get upto-date with 2020s tech after 6,5 yr absence.

    I don't do gaming : SGT puzzles are enough for me.
    I use the HDD strictly for back-up + storage of infrequently used data
    + a Mint partition which allows me to use my scanner (another story).
    I would like to listen to some classical music
    -- eg the Canadian pianist who won the Warsaw Chopin prize recently -- ,
    but have no desire to hear how politicians sound off.
    I don't want to have to rely entirely on an SSD which might fail suddenly : today, I sb able to restore the Gentoo system + Home files from HDD,
    if I had to buy a replacement SSD. ANB5 doesn't usually annoy me with noise.

    Any further comments are very welcome.
    I will report back when I've had time to review the info so far.

    --
    ========================,,============================================
    SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
    ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
    TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Steinmetzger@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 7 10:40:01 2022
    Am Sun, Mar 06, 2022 at 09:53:20PM -0500 schrieb Philip Webb:

    Thanks for all the replies so far : they have been carefully saved.
    Clearly, I need to look up component specs on the I/net
    & try to get upto-date with 2020s tech after 6,5 yr absence.

    I don't do gaming : SGT puzzles are enough for me.

    Then—from a graphics viewpoint—the 5700G will do just fine and then some. Unfortunately, AMD does not currently cater well to the lower- or medium-tier market, because at Intel you would still get a decent CPU for half the price (at least here in Europe) *including* acceptable graphics.

    There is the 5600G, which is the same as the 5700G, only with a little bit slower clock and six cores instead of eight (including 2 threads per core,
    of course), in case you want to save some more. I don’t suppose you have
    high computational demands either, save for compiling packages?

    I use the HDD strictly for back-up + storage of infrequently used data
    + a Mint partition which allows me to use my scanner (another story).

    Then there is no acute need for a “hot-head” fast disk.

    I don't want to have to rely entirely on an SSD which might fail suddenly :

    I never lost that fear entirely myself. However, I’ve been using SSDs since
    I built the PC that I was talking about. By now I own four -- I started out
    in 2014 with a small and cheap Sandisk as system SSD for the PC. Another
    even cheaper (thus slower) Sandisk works as system SSD in my Gentoo-based
    NAS. In 2016 I bought a Crucial BX100 500 GB for the then-new laptop as main drive. After a few years it became too small and was upgraded to a Crucial MX100 2 TB. The 500 GB then went into the PC to replace the puny Sandisk,
    and will probably soon go into a Mini-PC-as-a-server, once I get that 2 TB
    M.2.

    I haven’t had any total failures yet. (Sooner or later, everything fails, of course.) I recently looked at the SMART values and in those 6 years (half Gentoo, half Arch linux), the 500 GB SSD saw 6 TB of write volume. The guaranteed volume is 72 TB. Tests by the press proved that drives usually survive a multiple of that. Oh, I did buy an M.2 2242 for an external
    enclosure once, and that one was—not dead—but quite sick on arrival. It puked SMART errors soon after I purchased it and then I never got around to send it back. I guess I bought too cheap for my own good.

    But regarding those failures: I do regular (once a week, which I sometimes forget) backups of my whole PC and laptop to an external HDD with Borg
    backup. Then I rsync that backup to another USB disk. And I also sync much
    of my data between the two multiple times a day with Unison. So I should be fine if one of the SSDs fails suddenly. *fingers crossed*

    --
    Grüße | Greetings | Qapla’
    Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

    Why did the orange go blind? Because it was low on Vitamin C.

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