• [gentoo-user] updating /boot directory EFI

    From thelma@sys-concept.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 16 06:10:01 2023
    After installing new kernel how to update /boot EFI directory?

    From my notes, I have:
    grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
    grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot

    or should it be:
    grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
    efibootmgr -c -d /dev/nvme0n1p1 -p 1 -L "Gentoo" -l /boot/grub/x86_64-efi/core.efi

    Boot partition is:
    /dev/nvme0n1p1 = /boot

    --
    Thelma

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  • From thelma@sys-concept.com@21:1/5 to thelma@sys-concept.com on Sun Apr 16 06:20:01 2023
    On 4/15/23 22:01, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
    After installing new kernel how to update /boot EFI directory?

    From my notes, I have:
    grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
    grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot

    or should it be:
    grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
    efibootmgr -c -d /dev/nvme0n1p1 -p 1 -L "Gentoo" -l /boot/grub/x86_64-efi/core.efi

    Boot partition is:
    /dev/nvme0n1p1   =  /boot

    This is not dual boot system, so I don't know why /boot has EFI directory

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  • From Mitch D.@21:1/5 to thelma@sys-concept.com on Sun Apr 16 13:20:01 2023
    When you emerge grub, Gentoo compiles and "installs" grub (and some grub-related tools) to a directory inside your Gentoo installation, just
    like other applications. The catch is that grub isn't like other applications... it needs to run outside of Gentoo, before Linux starts.
    This means that Grub isn't very useful sitting inside your Gentoo
    installation.

    "grub-install" copies Grub from your Gentoo installation to your hard drive
    / SSD / etc. This has nothing to do with your kernel, it only involves
    Grub. Rerun this command when you emerge updates to Grub.

    "efibootmgr" tells your motherboard's (U)EFI firmware where to find Grub
    (or any other bootloader or EFI tool). When you emerge an update for Grub
    (and run grub-install), the path shouldn't change, so there's no need to
    rerun efibootmgr. This also has nothing to do with your kernel.

    "grub-mkconfig" generates a configuration file that Grub reads while the computer is booting, and generally tells Grub what options to include in
    the menu Grub displays. When you update your kernel, you want to update
    that menu, so you SHOULD rerun "grub-mkconfig" at this time.

    All EFI systems are supposed to have an EFI system partition (ESP). Some
    people use the ESP as their boot partition, while other people keep them as
    two separate partitions and mount the boot partition as /boot and the ESP
    as /boot/EFI. Either way, it's not related to dual-booting.

    NOTE: if I remember correctly, there are USE flags that can be enabled to automatically run grub-install and grub-mkconfig when updates are installed
    for Grub and for kernels, respectively.

    -Hypoon

    On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 00:19 <thelma@sys-concept.com> wrote:

    On 4/15/23 22:01, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
    After installing new kernel how to update /boot EFI directory?

    From my notes, I have:
    grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
    grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot

    or should it be:
    grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
    efibootmgr -c -d /dev/nvme0n1p1 -p 1 -L "Gentoo" -l
    /boot/grub/x86_64-efi/core.efi

    Boot partition is:
    /dev/nvme0n1p1 = /boot

    This is not dual boot system, so I don't know why /boot has EFI directory




    <div dir="auto"><div>When you emerge grub, Gentoo compiles and &quot;installs&quot; grub (and some grub-related tools) to a directory inside your Gentoo installation, just like other applications. The catch is that grub isn&#39;t like other applications..
    . it needs to run outside of Gentoo, before Linux starts. This means that Grub isn&#39;t very useful sitting inside your Gentoo installation.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">&quot;grub-install&quot; copies Grub from your Gentoo
    installation to your hard drive / SSD / etc. This has nothing to do with your kernel, it only involves Grub. Rerun this command when you emerge updates to Grub.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">&quot;efibootmgr&quot; tells your motherboard&#
    39;s (U)EFI firmware where to find Grub (or any other bootloader or EFI tool). When you emerge an update for Grub (and run grub-install), the path shouldn&#39;t change, so there&#39;s no need to rerun efibootmgr. This also has nothing to do with your
    kernel.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">&quot;grub-mkconfig&quot; generates a configuration file that Grub reads while the computer is booting, and generally tells Grub what options to include in the menu Grub displays. When you update
    your kernel, you want to update that menu, so you SHOULD rerun &quot;grub-mkconfig&quot; at this time.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">All EFI systems are supposed to have an EFI system partition (ESP). Some people use the ESP as their
    boot partition, while other people keep them as two separate partitions and mount the boot partition as /boot and the ESP as /boot/EFI. Either way, it&#39;s not related to dual-booting.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">NOTE: if I remember
    correctly, there are USE flags that can be enabled to automatically run grub-install and grub-mkconfig when updates are installed for Grub and for kernels, respectively.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">-Hypoon</div><div dir="auto"><br><div
    class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 00:19 &lt;<a href="mailto:thelma@sys-concept.com">thelma@sys-concept.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:
    1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 4/15/23 22:01, <a href="mailto:thelma@sys-concept.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">thelma@sys-concept.com</a> wrote:<br>
    &gt; After installing new kernel how to update /boot EFI directory?<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt;  From my notes, I have:<br>
    &gt; grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg<br>
    &gt; grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; or should it be:<br>
    &gt; grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg<br>
    &gt; efibootmgr -c -d /dev/nvme0n1p1 -p 1 -L &quot;Gentoo&quot; -l /boot/grub/x86_64-efi/core.efi<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; Boot partition is:<br>
    &gt; /dev/nvme0n1p1   =  /boot<br>

    This is not dual boot system, so I don&#39;t know why /boot has EFI directory<br>


    </blockquote></div></div></div>

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  • From Peter Humphrey@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 16 14:20:01 2023
    On Sunday, 16 April 2023 12:16:09 BST Mitch D. wrote:

    All EFI systems are supposed to have an EFI system partition (ESP). Some people use the ESP as their boot partition, while other people keep them as two separate partitions and mount the boot partition as /boot and the ESP
    as /boot/EFI.

    I think certain EFI BIOSes will only co-operate with certain directory
    layouts. I've had mixed experiences anyway.

    --
    Regards,
    Peter.

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  • From Lee K@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 16 16:50:01 2023
    Also, learn how to boot a kernel from the grub cli, and keep a printed
    version of these instructions in a handy place. This has saved my butt countless times. :)

    --
    Lee

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  • From Nikos Chantziaras@21:1/5 to thelma@sys-concept.com on Sun Apr 16 16:30:01 2023
    On 16/04/2023 07:01, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
    After installing new kernel how to update /boot EFI directory?

    You don't need to. You only need to do that when you want to reinstall
    GRUB itself into the EFI partition. The kernel is installed in /boot,
    not into the EFI partition.

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  • From Dale@21:1/5 to Lee K on Sun Apr 16 17:40:01 2023
    Lee K wrote:
    Also, learn how to boot a kernel from the grub cli, and keep a printed version of these instructions in a handy place. This has saved my butt countless times. :)



    OP:  I can't agree more.  Just a couple weeks ago, my system wouldn't
    boot except to a rescue thingy.  I had to boot another media, mount everything, do some changes and reboot.  If I didn't have notes, it
    would have been a nightmare.  Keep in mind, I have a LOT of drives.  I
    try to keep the OS on sda at all times tho.  It's a good start.  Given I
    just rearranged to add a SSD drive, I'm updating my notes, again.  Also,
    keep a known working bootable media available.  It's best to have both a CD/DVD and a USB stick. 

    Always, ALWAYS, have up to date notes on drives, especially those you
    would need to boot something else and fix a unbootable system.  Best
    advice you may ever get along with having something else to boot from. 

    Dale

    :-)  :-) 

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  • From thelma@sys-concept.com@21:1/5 to Mitch D. on Sun Apr 16 19:40:01 2023
    On 4/16/23 05:16, Mitch D. wrote:
    When you emerge grub, Gentoo compiles and "installs" grub (and some grub-related tools) to a directory inside your Gentoo installation, just like other applications. The catch is that grub isn't like other applications... it needs to run outside of
    Gentoo, before Linux starts. This means that Grub isn't very useful sitting inside your Gentoo installation.

    "grub-install" copies Grub from your Gentoo installation to your hard drive / SSD / etc. This has nothing to do with your kernel, it only involves Grub. Rerun this command when you emerge updates to Grub.

    "efibootmgr" tells your motherboard's (U)EFI firmware where to find Grub (or any other bootloader or EFI tool). When you emerge an update for Grub (and run grub-install), the path shouldn't change, so there's no need to rerun efibootmgr. This also has
    nothing to do with your kernel.

    "grub-mkconfig" generates a configuration file that Grub reads while the computer is booting, and generally tells Grub what options to include in the menu Grub displays. When you update your kernel, you want to update that menu, so you SHOULD rerun "
    grub-mkconfig" at this time.

    All EFI systems are supposed to have an EFI system partition (ESP). Some people use the ESP as their boot partition, while other people keep them as two separate partitions and mount the boot partition as /boot and the ESP as /boot/EFI. Either way, it'
    s not related to dual-booting.

    NOTE: if I remember correctly, there are USE flags that can be enabled to automatically run grub-install and grub-mkconfig when updates are installed for Grub and for kernels, respectively.

    -Hypoon

    On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 00:19 <thelma@sys-concept.com <mailto:thelma@sys-concept.com>> wrote:

    On 4/15/23 22:01, thelma@sys-concept.com <mailto:thelma@sys-concept.com> wrote:
    > After installing new kernel how to update /boot EFI directory?
    >
    >  From my notes, I have:
    > grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
    > grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot
    >
    > or should it be:
    > grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
    > efibootmgr -c -d /dev/nvme0n1p1 -p 1 -L "Gentoo" -l /boot/grub/x86_64-efi/core.efi
    >
    > Boot partition is:
    > /dev/nvme0n1p1   =  /boot

    This is not dual boot system, so I don't know why /boot has EFI directory

    Thank you Hypoon and folks for detail explanation. Always learn something new. So once EFI is installed during grub installation there is no need to touch it, by running:

    grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot

    And thanks Lee for a hint about booting kernel manually from grub command line. I'll definitely look it up and make some notes.
    Anybody can share more information on it.

    And NO, I'll not look check ChatGPT, don't want to end up with unbootable system :-)

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  • From thelma@sys-concept.com@21:1/5 to Lee K on Sun Apr 16 19:50:01 2023
    On 4/16/23 08:49, Lee K wrote:
    Also, learn how to boot a kernel from the grub cli, and keep a printed version of these instructions in a handy place. This has saved my butt countless times. :)

    Thanks Lee, that is really helpful hint.

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  • From Wol@21:1/5 to Nikos Chantziaras on Sun Apr 16 20:50:01 2023
    On 16/04/2023 15:22, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
    On 16/04/2023 07:01, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
    After installing new kernel how to update /boot EFI directory?

    You don't need to. You only need to do that when you want to reinstall
    GRUB itself into the EFI partition. The kernel is installed in /boot,
    not into the EFI partition.

    And if grub isn't installed?

    Basically you have a choice. Install grub into EFI, and use grub as your
    boot manager. Or ditch grub (the recommended route) and use EFI as your
    boot manager.

    If you do the latter, whether it's called /boot or /boot/EFI, you have
    to update the EFI directory.

    Cheers,
    Wol

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  • From Wol@21:1/5 to thelma@sys-concept.com on Sun Apr 16 20:40:01 2023
    On 16/04/2023 18:43, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:

    On 4/16/23 08:49, Lee K wrote:
    Also, learn how to boot a kernel from the grub cli, and keep a printed
    version of these instructions in a handy place. This has saved my butt
    countless times. :)

    Thanks Lee, that is really helpful hint.

    Or, seeing as grub is deprecated with EFI, learn how to boot using EFI.

    Don't worry, I haven't really learned either :-) I just keep a Slack
    live-CD handy ...

    Cheers,
    Wol

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  • From hitachi303@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 16 21:20:01 2023
    Am 16.04.23 um 21:11 schrieb Mitch D.:
    A minimal EFI bootloader can show an updated menu for the new kernels
    without needing to make regular writes to the EFI variable storage. I
    didn't know Grub was deprecated, but there are other options. rEFInd is pretty. Syslinux is flexible.

    https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader

    Default: GRUB

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  • From Mitch D.@21:1/5 to antlists@youngman.org.uk on Sun Apr 16 21:20:01 2023
    There is a catch related to using EFI without a conventional bootloader. If
    you want your boot menu to include details such as kernel versions, then it would be necessary to run efibootmgr every time you update the kernel. I'm
    not sure if the EFI variable storage is resilient to repeated writes, so
    this could be dangerous. The alternative is to have a couple generic EFI
    boot entries, such as "Gentoo" and "Gentoo (Old Kernel)", which point to consistent paths, then you replace the kernel at those paths without
    needing to update the boot entry each time.

    A minimal EFI bootloader can show an updated menu for the new kernels
    without needing to make regular writes to the EFI variable storage. I
    didn't know Grub was deprecated, but there are other options. rEFInd is
    pretty. Syslinux is flexible.

    It's probably not a huge issue, but I doubt the EFI data chip on the motherboard has been chosen for its write endurance.

    On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 14:31 Wol <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:

    On 16/04/2023 18:43, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:

    On 4/16/23 08:49, Lee K wrote:
    Also, learn how to boot a kernel from the grub cli, and keep a printed
    version of these instructions in a handy place. This has saved my butt
    countless times. :)

    Thanks Lee, that is really helpful hint.

    Or, seeing as grub is deprecated with EFI, learn how to boot using EFI.

    Don't worry, I haven't really learned either :-) I just keep a Slack
    live-CD handy ...

    Cheers,
    Wol



    <div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">There is a catch related to using EFI without a conventional bootloader. If you want your boot menu to include details such as kernel versions, then it would be necessary to run efibootmgr every time you update the kernel.
    I&#39;m not sure if the EFI variable storage is resilient to repeated writes, so this could be dangerous. The alternative is to have a couple generic EFI boot entries, such as &quot;Gentoo&quot; and &quot;Gentoo (Old Kernel)&quot;, which point to
    consistent paths, then you replace the kernel at those paths without needing to update the boot entry each time.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">A minimal EFI bootloader can show an updated menu for the new kernels without needing to make
    regular writes to the EFI variable storage. I didn&#39;t know Grub was deprecated, but there are other options. rEFInd is pretty. Syslinux is flexible.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It&#39;s probably not a huge issue, but I doubt the EFI
    data chip on the motherboard has been chosen for its write endurance.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 14:31 Wol &lt;<a href="mailto:antlists@youngman.org.uk">antlists@youngman.org.uk</a>&gt;
    wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 16/04/2023 18:43, <a href="mailto:thelma@sys-concept.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">thelma@sys-concept.com</a> wrote:<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; On 4/16/23 08:49, Lee K wrote:<br>
    &gt;&gt; Also, learn how to boot a kernel from the grub cli, and keep a printed<br>
    &gt;&gt; version of these instructions in a handy place. This has saved my butt<br>
    &gt;&gt; countless times. :)<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; Thanks Lee, that is really helpful hint.<br>
    &gt; <br>
    Or, seeing as grub is deprecated with EFI, learn how to boot using EFI.<br>

    Don&#39;t worry, I haven&#39;t really learned either :-) I just keep a Slack <br>
    live-CD handy ...<br>

    Cheers,<br>
    Wol<br>

    </blockquote></div>

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  • From Mitch D.@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 16 23:40:01 2023
    Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI systems?

    On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 15:17 hitachi303 <gentoo-user@konstantinhansen.de>
    wrote:

    Am 16.04.23 um 21:11 schrieb Mitch D.:
    A minimal EFI bootloader can show an updated menu for the new kernels without needing to make regular writes to the EFI variable storage. I didn't know Grub was deprecated, but there are other options. rEFInd is pretty. Syslinux is flexible.

    https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader

    Default: GRUB



    <div dir="auto">Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI systems?</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 15:17 hitachi303 &lt;<a href="mailto:gentoo-user@konstantinhansen.de">
    gentoo-user@konstantinhansen.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Am 16.04.23 um 21:11 schrieb Mitch D.:<br>
    &gt; A minimal EFI bootloader can show an updated menu for the new kernels <br> &gt; without needing to make regular writes to the EFI variable storage. I <br> &gt; didn&#39;t know Grub was deprecated, but there are other options. rEFInd is <br>
    &gt; pretty. Syslinux is flexible.<br>

    <a href="https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader</a><br>

    Default: GRUB<br>

    </blockquote></div>

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  • From Peter Humphrey@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 17 00:00:01 2023
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  • From Arsen =?utf-8?Q?Arsenovi=C4=87?=@21:1/5 to Wol on Mon Apr 17 00:20:01 2023
    Wol <antlists@youngman.org.uk> writes:

    On 16/04/2023 18:43, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
    On 4/16/23 08:49, Lee K wrote:
    Also, learn how to boot a kernel from the grub cli, and keep a printed
    version of these instructions in a handy place. This has saved my butt
    countless times. :)
    Thanks Lee, that is really helpful hint.

    Or, seeing as grub is deprecated with EFI, learn how to boot using EFI.

    I'm not sure where you got this - GRUB supports and continues to be
    supported on UEFI.
    --
    Arsen Arsenović

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  • From Wol@21:1/5 to Mitch D. on Mon Apr 17 01:20:01 2023
    On 16/04/2023 22:30, Mitch D. wrote:
    Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI systems?

    Because EFI is a boot manager? Why chain-load boot managers?

    Cheers,
    Wol

    On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 15:17 hitachi303 <gentoo-user@konstantinhansen.de <mailto:gentoo-user@konstantinhansen.de>> wrote:

    Am 16.04.23 um 21:11 schrieb Mitch D.:
    > A minimal EFI bootloader can show an updated menu for the new
    kernels
    > without needing to make regular writes to the EFI variable
    storage. I
    > didn't know Grub was deprecated, but there are other options.
    rEFInd is
    > pretty. Syslinux is flexible.

    https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader
    <https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader>

    Default: GRUB


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  • From Arsen =?utf-8?Q?Arsenovi=C4=87?=@21:1/5 to Wol on Mon Apr 17 01:40:01 2023
    Wol <antlists@youngman.org.uk> writes:

    On 16/04/2023 22:30, Mitch D. wrote:
    Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI systems?

    Because EFI is a boot manager?

    That is not the case any more than the classic IBM PC boot procedure is.
    There is technical capability for UEFI firmware to act in such a manner,
    but, in practice, this is not at all the case.

    The technical capability comes from the fact that boot entities have a
    lil' bit of metadata attached to them.

    Why chain-load boot managers?

    In theory, EFI implementations should provide boot
    managers. Unfortunately, in practice these boot managers are often so
    poor as to be useless. The worst I've personally encountered is on
    Gigabyte's Hybrid EFI, which provides you with no boot options
    whatsoever, beyond choosing the boot device (hard disk vs. optical disc,
    for instance). I've heard of others that are just as bad. For this
    reason, a good EFI boot manager—either standalone or as part of a boot loader—is a practical necessity for multi-booting on an EFI
    computer. That's where rEFInd comes into play.
    - https://rodsbooks.com/refind/

    Cheers,
    Wol
    On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 15:17 hitachi303 <gentoo-user@konstantinhansen.de
    <mailto:gentoo-user@konstantinhansen.de>> wrote:
    Am 16.04.23 um 21:11 schrieb Mitch D.:
    > A minimal EFI bootloader can show an updated menu for the new
    kernels
    > without needing to make regular writes to the EFI variable
    storage. I
    > didn't know Grub was deprecated, but there are other options.
    rEFInd is
    > pretty. Syslinux is flexible.
    https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader
    <https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader>
    Default: GRUB



    --
    Arsen Arsenović

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  • From Anna@21:1/5 to Wol on Mon Apr 17 01:30:01 2023
    On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 12:13:18AM +0100, Wol wrote:
    On 16/04/2023 22:30, Mitch D. wrote:
    Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI systems?

    Because EFI is a boot manager? Why chain-load boot managers?

    Cheers,
    Wol

    Just because you may not see a reason why, doesn't mean that it is
    deprecated. GRUB supports UEFI.

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  • From Dr Rainer Woitok@21:1/5 to you on Mon Apr 17 12:00:02 2023
    Mitch,

    On Sunday, 2023-04-16 07:16:09 -0400, you wrote:

    ...
    "grub-install" copies Grub from your Gentoo installation to your hard drive
    / SSD / etc. This has nothing to do with your kernel, it only involves
    Grub. Rerun this command when you emerge updates to Grub.

    Is this really necessary to be done manually? Shouldn't this be the job
    of the Grub ebuild? My gut feeling is that having to look out for Grub updates and then to manually run "grub-install" every time is not really Gentoo-like ...

    To be honest, I've run this command once during my initial Gentoo in-
    stall three and a half years back, but never since. And according to my
    logs I've since then upgraded Grub ten times and rebuilt it four times.
    Should I worry? Can this be automated?

    ...
    NOTE: if I remember correctly, there are USE flags that can be enabled to automatically run grub-install and grub-mkconfig when updates are installed for Grub and for kernels, respectively.

    Checking the USE flags for Grub and Portage I didn't find anything for automatically running "grub-install". Where else to look?

    Sincerely,
    Rainer

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  • From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 17 14:00:01 2023
    On Monday, 17 April 2023 00:29:49 BST Arsen Arsenović wrote:
    Wol <antlists@youngman.org.uk> writes:
    On 16/04/2023 22:30, Mitch D. wrote:
    Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI
    systems?

    Because EFI is a boot manager?

    That is not the case any more than the classic IBM PC boot procedure is. There is technical capability for UEFI firmware to act in such a manner,
    but, in practice, this is not at all the case.

    The technical capability comes from the fact that boot entities have a
    lil' bit of metadata attached to them.

    The ability of UEFI to boot linux kernels, as long as they are built with the EFI boot stub enabled, may render 3rd party boot managers and their boot loaders redundant. However, as already mentioned below, the flexibility and customisability of GRUB and other boot manager exceeds any UEFI firmware I've come across.


    Why chain-load boot managers?

    In theory, EFI implementations should provide boot
    managers. Unfortunately, in practice these boot managers are often so
    poor as to be useless. The worst I've personally encountered is on
    Gigabyte's Hybrid EFI, which provides you with no boot options
    whatsoever, beyond choosing the boot device (hard disk vs. optical disc,
    for instance). I've heard of others that are just as bad. For this
    reason, a good EFI boot manager—either standalone or as part of a boot loader—is a practical necessity for multi-booting on an EFI
    computer. That's where rEFInd comes into play.
    - https://rodsbooks.com/refind/

    I've stopped using GRUB and have been using the UEFI firmware to boot directly Gentoo for more than 10 years now. Given I have also flashed some of the MoBos' chipset with new UEFI firmware a dozen times or more, I have not experienced any MoBo failures as yet. Also, the ESP partition formatted with FAT32 has remained quite resilient too. No loss of data or fs corruption yet (keeps fingers crossed and checks backups).

    My particular systems setup and use case suits this approach, but I appreciate people who multiboot daily/frequently, or need to boot LiveISOs off the disk may find GRUB and friends to be a more suitable solution.

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  • From Mitch D.@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 17 14:20:01 2023
    I just took a quick glance at the ebuild, and it looks like it should print
    a reminder ("Re-run grub-install to update installed boot code!") every
    time you upgrade from an older version to a newer one, but it also looks
    like the reminder gets skipped if you're re-emerging the same version.

    https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-boot/grub/grub-2.06-r4.ebuild#n314

    I don't see a USE flag to automate the process after all, so I must have
    been misremembering. It might be difficult to automate, and perhaps more importantly, it's not always reversible. Installing grub to an MBR will
    clobber anything else that was previously there. Another challenge is for portage to reliably identify the target device. For example, using software RAID, grub-install probably needs to be run multiple times, once targeting
    each physical disk. Overall, I think it's possible, but it's not trivial,
    and it would probably need a config file.

    Should you worry? Probably not. Version 2.04 was stabilized in January
    2020, so the version number has only increased once since then, maybe twice
    if you originally installed Gentoo in 2019. The rest of the upgrades were ebuild revisions. Since ebuild revisions can include patches and have other important corrections, I would rerun grub-install if I were you, but I
    wouldn't say it's urgent.

    On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 05:55 Dr Rainer Woitok <rainer.woitok@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    Mitch,

    On Sunday, 2023-04-16 07:16:09 -0400, you wrote:

    ...
    "grub-install" copies Grub from your Gentoo installation to your hard
    drive
    / SSD / etc. This has nothing to do with your kernel, it only involves Grub. Rerun this command when you emerge updates to Grub.

    Is this really necessary to be done manually? Shouldn't this be the job
    of the Grub ebuild? My gut feeling is that having to look out for Grub updates and then to manually run "grub-install" every time is not really Gentoo-like ...

    To be honest, I've run this command once during my initial Gentoo in- stall three and a half years back, but never since. And according to my
    logs I've since then upgraded Grub ten times and rebuilt it four times. Should I worry? Can this be automated?

    ...
    NOTE: if I remember correctly, there are USE flags that can be enabled to automatically run grub-install and grub-mkconfig when updates are
    installed
    for Grub and for kernels, respectively.

    Checking the USE flags for Grub and Portage I didn't find anything for automatically running "grub-install". Where else to look?

    Sincerely,
    Rainer


    <div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">I just took a quick glance at the ebuild, and it looks like it should print a reminder (&quot;Re-run grub-install to update installed boot code!&quot;) every time you upgrade from an older version to a newer one, but it
    also looks like the reminder gets skipped if you&#39;re re-emerging the same version.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-boot/grub/grub-2.06-r4.ebuild#n314">https://gitweb.gentoo.org/
    repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-boot/grub/grub-2.06-r4.ebuild#n314</a></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I don&#39;t see a USE flag to automate the process after all, so I must have been misremembering. It might be difficult to automate, and
    perhaps more importantly, it&#39;s not always reversible. Installing grub to an MBR will clobber anything else that was previously there. Another challenge is for portage to reliably identify the target device. For example, using software RAID, grub-
    install probably needs to be run multiple times, once targeting each physical disk. Overall, I think it&#39;s possible, but it&#39;s not trivial, and it would probably need a config file.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Should you worry?
    Probably not. Version 2.04 was stabilized in January 2020, so the version number has only increased once since then, maybe twice if you originally installed Gentoo in 2019. The rest of the upgrades were ebuild revisions. Since ebuild revisions can
    include patches and have other important corrections, I would rerun grub-install if I were you, but I wouldn&#39;t say it&#39;s urgent.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 05:55 Dr Rainer Woitok
    &lt;<a href="mailto:rainer.woitok@gmail.com">rainer.woitok@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Mitch,<br>

    On Sunday, 2023-04-16 07:16:09 -0400, you wrote:<br>

    &gt; ...<br>
    &gt; &quot;grub-install&quot; copies Grub from your Gentoo installation to your hard drive<br>
    &gt; / SSD / etc. This has nothing to do with your kernel, it only involves<br> &gt; Grub. Rerun this command when you emerge updates to Grub.<br>

    Is this really necessary to be done manually?  Shouldn&#39;t this be the job<br>
    of the Grub ebuild?   My gut feeling is that having to look out for Grub<br> updates and then to manually run &quot;grub-install&quot; every time is not really<br>
    Gentoo-like ...<br>

    To be honest,  I&#39;ve run this  command once during  my initial Gentoo in-<br>
    stall three and a half years back, but never since.  And according to my<br> logs I&#39;ve since then upgraded Grub ten times  and rebuilt it four times.<br>
    Should I worry?  Can this be automated?<br>

    &gt; ...<br>
    &gt; NOTE: if I remember correctly, there are USE flags that can be enabled to<br>
    &gt; automatically run grub-install and grub-mkconfig when updates are installed<br>
    &gt; for Grub and for kernels, respectively.<br>

    Checking the USE flags  for Grub and Portage  I didn&#39;t find anything for<br>
    automatically running &quot;grub-install&quot;.  Where else to look?<br>

    Sincerely,<br>
      Rainer<br>
    </blockquote></div>

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  • From Nikos Chantziaras@21:1/5 to Wol on Mon Apr 17 15:40:01 2023
    On 16/04/2023 21:44, Wol wrote:
    On 16/04/2023 15:22, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
    On 16/04/2023 07:01, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
    After installing new kernel how to update /boot EFI directory?

    You don't need to. You only need to do that when you want to reinstall
    GRUB itself into the EFI partition. The kernel is installed in /boot,
    not into the EFI partition.

    And if grub isn't installed?

    It is.


    Basically you have a choice. Install grub into EFI, and use grub as your
    boot manager. Or ditch grub (the recommended route) and use EFI as your
    boot manager.

    EFI can't boot my ISO images (sysrescuecd and memtest86+.)

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  • From Mark Knecht@21:1/5 to confabulate@kintzios.com on Mon Apr 17 15:40:01 2023
    On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 4:57 AM Michael <confabulate@kintzios.com> wrote:

    On Monday, 17 April 2023 00:29:49 BST Arsen Arsenović wrote:
    Wol <antlists@youngman.org.uk> writes:
    On 16/04/2023 22:30, Mitch D. wrote:
    Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI
    systems?

    Because EFI is a boot manager?

    That is not the case any more than the classic IBM PC boot procedure is. There is technical capability for UEFI firmware to act in such a manner, but, in practice, this is not at all the case.

    The technical capability comes from the fact that boot entities have a
    lil' bit of metadata attached to them.

    The ability of UEFI to boot linux kernels, as long as they are built with
    the
    EFI boot stub enabled, may render 3rd party boot managers and their boot loaders redundant. However, as already mentioned below, the flexibility
    and
    customisability of GRUB and other boot manager exceeds any UEFI firmware
    I've
    come across.


    Why chain-load boot managers?

    In theory, EFI implementations should provide boot
    managers. Unfortunately, in practice these boot managers are often so
    poor as to be useless. The worst I've personally encountered is on Gigabyte's Hybrid EFI, which provides you with no boot options
    whatsoever, beyond choosing the boot device (hard disk vs. optical disc, for instance). I've heard of others that are just as bad. For this
    reason, a good EFI boot manager—either standalone or as part of a boot loader—is a practical necessity for multi-booting on an EFI
    computer. That's where rEFInd comes into play.
    - https://rodsbooks.com/refind/

    I've stopped using GRUB and have been using the UEFI firmware to boot
    directly
    Gentoo for more than 10 years now. Given I have also flashed some of the MoBos' chipset with new UEFI firmware a dozen times or more, I have not experienced any MoBo failures as yet. Also, the ESP partition formatted
    with
    FAT32 has remained quite resilient too. No loss of data or fs corruption
    yet
    (keeps fingers crossed and checks backups).

    My particular systems setup and use case suits this approach, but I
    appreciate
    people who multiboot daily/frequently, or need to boot LiveISOs off the
    disk
    may find GRUB and friends to be a more suitable solution.



    My needs are quite simple but efibootmgr, set up by the Kubuntu install
    on a separate M.2 from the Windows install the machine came with, works for
    me. I always start the day in Kubuntu, then reboot to Windows if I'm working
    on music:

    1) The simple view of the two installations:

    mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr
    BootCurrent: 0003
    Timeout: 1 seconds
    BootOrder: 0003,0000
    Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager
    Boot0003* ubuntu
    mark@science2:~$

    2) The more complicated view with GUIDs and such:

    mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr -v
    BootCurrent: 0003
    Timeout: 1 seconds
    BootOrder: 0003,0000
    Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager
    HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EF I\MICROSOFT\BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI)WINDOWS.........x...B.C.D.O.B.J.E.C.T.=.{.9.d.e.a.8.6.2.c.-.5.c.d.d.-.4
    .e.7.0.-.a.c.c.1.-.f.3.2.b.3.4.4.d.4.7.9.5.}....................
    Boot0003* ubuntu
    HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EFI\UBUNTU \SHIMX64.EFI)
    mark@science2:~$

    3) To get to Windows I can choose it in the OS screen if I'm sitting there
    but the most reliable way for me to get from Kubuntu to Windows is to just
    tell the system to go to Windows at the next boot using a batch file in Kubuntu:

    mark@science2:~$ cat bin/RebootWindows
    sudo efibootmgr -n 0000
    reboot
    mark@science2:~$

    The 'problem' with this setup is that all of the grub/efibootmgr stuff
    is on both drives and I'm never sure which drive is being used at
    which time as I have Kubuntu on nvme1 and Windows boot
    manager on nvme0 which I'm never comfortable with but the
    Ubuntu stuff figured it out so I don't argue. Pity me if I ever have to
    do a reinstall.

    mark@science2:~$ df -h
    Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
    tmpfs 3.2G 3.7M 3.2G 1% /run
    /dev/nvme1n1p3 916G 622G 248G 72% /
    tmpfs 16G 66M 16G 1% /dev/shm
    tmpfs 5.0M 4.0K 5.0M 1% /run/lock
    /dev/nvme0n1p1 96M 32M 65M 33% /boot/efi
    tmpfs 3.2G 64K 3.2G 1% /run/user/1000
    mark@science2:~$

    <div dir="ltr"><br><br>On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 4:57 AM Michael &lt;<a href="mailto:confabulate@kintzios.com">confabulate@kintzios.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On Monday, 17 April 2023 00:29:49 BST Arsen Arsenović wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; Wol &lt;<a
    href="mailto:antlists@youngman.org.uk">antlists@youngman.org.uk</a>&gt; writes:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; On 16/04/2023 22:30, Mitch D. wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; systems?<
    &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Because EFI is a boot manager?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; That is not the case any more than the classic IBM PC boot procedure is.<br>&gt; &gt; There is technical capability for UEFI firmware to act in such a manner,<br>
    &gt; &gt; but, in practice, this is not at all the case.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The technical capability comes from the fact that boot entities have a<br>&gt; &gt; lil&#39; bit of metadata attached to them.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The ability of UEFI to boot
    linux kernels, as long as they are built with the<br>&gt; EFI boot stub enabled, may render 3rd party boot managers and their boot<br>&gt; loaders redundant.  However, as already mentioned below, the flexibility and<br>&gt; customisability of GRUB and
    other boot manager exceeds any UEFI firmware I&#39;ve<br>&gt; come across.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Why chain-load boot managers?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; In theory, EFI implementations should provide boot<br>&gt; &gt; managers. Unfortunately,
    in practice these boot managers are often so<br>&gt; &gt; poor as to be useless. The worst I&#39;ve personally encountered is on<br>&gt; &gt; Gigabyte&#39;s Hybrid EFI, which provides you with no boot options<br>&gt; &gt; whatsoever, beyond choosing the
    boot device (hard disk vs. optical disc,<br>&gt; &gt; for instance). I&#39;ve heard of others that are just as bad. For this<br>&gt; &gt; reason, a good EFI boot manager—either standalone or as part of a boot<br>&gt; &gt; loader—is a practical
    necessity for multi-booting on an EFI<br>&gt; &gt; computer. That&#39;s where rEFInd comes into play.<br>&gt; &gt;   - <a href="https://rodsbooks.com/refind/">https://rodsbooks.com/refind/</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; I&#39;ve stopped using GRUB and have been
    using the UEFI firmware to boot directly<br>&gt; Gentoo for more than 10 years now.  Given I have also flashed some of the<br>&gt; MoBos&#39; chipset with new UEFI firmware a dozen times or more, I have not<br>&gt; experienced any MoBo failures as yet. 
    Also, the ESP partition formatted with<br>&gt; FAT32 has remained quite resilient too.  No loss of data or fs corruption yet<br>&gt; (keeps fingers crossed and checks backups).<br>&gt;<br>&gt; My particular systems setup and use case suits this
    approach, but I appreciate<br>&gt; people who multiboot daily/frequently, or need to boot LiveISOs off the disk<br>&gt; may find GRUB and friends to be a more suitable solution.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br><div><br></div><div>My needs are quite simple but
    efibootmgr, set up by the Kubuntu install </div><div>on a separate M.2 from the Windows install the machine came with, works for </div><div>me. I always start the day in Kubuntu, then reboot to Windows if I&#39;m working</div><div>on music:</div><br>1)
    The simple view of the two installations:<br><br>mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr  <br>BootCurrent: 0003<br>Timeout: 1 seconds<br>BootOrder: 0003,0000<br>Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager<br>Boot0003* ubuntu<br>mark@science2:~$<br><br>2) The more complicated
    view with GUIDs and such:<br><br>mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr -v<br>BootCurrent: 0003<br>Timeout: 1 seconds<br>BootOrder: 0003,0000<br>Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager  HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EF<br>I\MICROSOFT\
    BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI)WINDOWS.........x...B.C.D.O.B.J.E.C.T.=.{.9.d.e.a.8.6.2.c.-.5.c.d.d.-.4<br>.e.7.0.-.a.c.c.1.-.f.3.2.b.3.4.4.d.4.7.9.5.}....................<br>Boot0003* ubuntu        HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(
    \EFI\UBUNTU<br>\SHIMX64.EFI)<br>mark@science2:~$<br><br>3) To get to Windows I can choose it in the OS screen if I&#39;m sitting there<div>but the most reliable way for me to get from Kubuntu to Windows is to just</div><div>tell the system to go to
    Windows at the next boot using a batch file in</div><div>Kubuntu:</div><div><br>mark@science2:~$ cat bin/RebootWindows  <br>sudo efibootmgr -n 0000<br>reboot<br>mark@science2:~$</div><div><br></div><div>The &#39;problem&#39; with this setup is that all
    of the grub/efibootmgr stuff</div><div>is on both drives and I&#39;m never sure which drive is being used at </div><div>which time as I have Kubuntu on nvme1 and Windows boot</div><div>manager on nvme0 which I&#39;m never comfortable with but the </div>
    <div>Ubuntu stuff figured it out so I don&#39;t argue. Pity me if I ever have to</div><div>do a reinstall.</div><div><br></div>mark@science2:~$ df -h<br>Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on<br>tmpfs           3.2G  3.7M  3.2G   1%
    /run<br>/dev/nvme1n1p3  916G  622G  248G  72% /<br>tmpfs            16G   66M   16G   1% /dev/shm<br>tmpfs           5.0M  4.0K  5.0M   1% /run/lock<br>/dev/nvme0n1p1   96M   32M   65M  33% /boot/efi<br>tmpfs           3.2G Â
      64K  3.2G   1% /run/user/1000<br>mark@science2:~$<div></div></div>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitch D.@21:1/5 to markknecht@gmail.com on Mon Apr 17 18:00:01 2023
    Grub and Windows Boot Manager are bootloaders, and they can be "on" a
    drive, but efibootmgr is not. Your EFI is part of your motherboard, and efibootmgr is just a tool that helps you configure your EFI. The actual EFI configuration is stored on your motherboard, not on either drive. For what
    it's worth, I vaguely remember a similar tool available in Windows. If you change your configuration in efibootmgr, you would see the changes in the Windows tool, too, because you only have one EFI (which both tools can
    access).

    On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 09:32 Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:



    On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 4:57 AM Michael <confabulate@kintzios.com> wrote:

    On Monday, 17 April 2023 00:29:49 BST Arsen Arsenović wrote:
    Wol <antlists@youngman.org.uk> writes:
    On 16/04/2023 22:30, Mitch D. wrote:
    Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI
    systems?

    Because EFI is a boot manager?

    That is not the case any more than the classic IBM PC boot procedure
    is.
    There is technical capability for UEFI firmware to act in such a
    manner,
    but, in practice, this is not at all the case.

    The technical capability comes from the fact that boot entities have a lil' bit of metadata attached to them.

    The ability of UEFI to boot linux kernels, as long as they are built
    with the
    EFI boot stub enabled, may render 3rd party boot managers and their boot loaders redundant. However, as already mentioned below, the flexibility
    and
    customisability of GRUB and other boot manager exceeds any UEFI firmware
    I've
    come across.


    Why chain-load boot managers?

    In theory, EFI implementations should provide boot
    managers. Unfortunately, in practice these boot managers are often so poor as to be useless. The worst I've personally encountered is on Gigabyte's Hybrid EFI, which provides you with no boot options whatsoever, beyond choosing the boot device (hard disk vs. optical
    disc,
    for instance). I've heard of others that are just as bad. For this reason, a good EFI boot manager—either standalone or as part of a boot loader—is a practical necessity for multi-booting on an EFI
    computer. That's where rEFInd comes into play.
    - https://rodsbooks.com/refind/

    I've stopped using GRUB and have been using the UEFI firmware to boot
    directly
    Gentoo for more than 10 years now. Given I have also flashed some of the MoBos' chipset with new UEFI firmware a dozen times or more, I have not experienced any MoBo failures as yet. Also, the ESP partition formatted
    with
    FAT32 has remained quite resilient too. No loss of data or fs
    corruption yet
    (keeps fingers crossed and checks backups).

    My particular systems setup and use case suits this approach, but I
    appreciate
    people who multiboot daily/frequently, or need to boot LiveISOs off the
    disk
    may find GRUB and friends to be a more suitable solution.



    My needs are quite simple but efibootmgr, set up by the Kubuntu install
    on a separate M.2 from the Windows install the machine came with, works
    for
    me. I always start the day in Kubuntu, then reboot to Windows if I'm
    working
    on music:

    1) The simple view of the two installations:

    mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr
    BootCurrent: 0003
    Timeout: 1 seconds
    BootOrder: 0003,0000
    Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager
    Boot0003* ubuntu
    mark@science2:~$

    2) The more complicated view with GUIDs and such:

    mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr -v
    BootCurrent: 0003
    Timeout: 1 seconds
    BootOrder: 0003,0000
    Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager
    HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EF

    I\MICROSOFT\BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI)WINDOWS.........x...B.C.D.O.B.J.E.C.T.=.{.9.d.e.a.8.6.2.c.-.5.c.d.d.-.4
    .e.7.0.-.a.c.c.1.-.f.3.2.b.3.4.4.d.4.7.9.5.}....................
    Boot0003* ubuntu
    HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EFI\UBUNTU
    \SHIMX64.EFI)
    mark@science2:~$

    3) To get to Windows I can choose it in the OS screen if I'm sitting there but the most reliable way for me to get from Kubuntu to Windows is to just tell the system to go to Windows at the next boot using a batch file in Kubuntu:

    mark@science2:~$ cat bin/RebootWindows
    sudo efibootmgr -n 0000
    reboot
    mark@science2:~$

    The 'problem' with this setup is that all of the grub/efibootmgr stuff
    is on both drives and I'm never sure which drive is being used at
    which time as I have Kubuntu on nvme1 and Windows boot
    manager on nvme0 which I'm never comfortable with but the
    Ubuntu stuff figured it out so I don't argue. Pity me if I ever have to
    do a reinstall.

    mark@science2:~$ df -h
    Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
    tmpfs 3.2G 3.7M 3.2G 1% /run
    /dev/nvme1n1p3 916G 622G 248G 72% /
    tmpfs 16G 66M 16G 1% /dev/shm
    tmpfs 5.0M 4.0K 5.0M 1% /run/lock
    /dev/nvme0n1p1 96M 32M 65M 33% /boot/efi
    tmpfs 3.2G 64K 3.2G 1% /run/user/1000
    mark@science2:~$


    <div dir="auto"><div>Grub and Windows Boot Manager are bootloaders, and they can be &quot;on&quot; a drive, but efibootmgr is not. Your EFI is part of your motherboard, and efibootmgr is just a tool that helps you configure your EFI. The actual EFI
    configuration is stored on your motherboard, not on either drive. For what it&#39;s worth, I vaguely remember a similar tool available in Windows. If you change your configuration in efibootmgr, you would see the changes in the Windows tool, too, because
    you only have one EFI (which both tools can access).<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 09:32 Mark Knecht &lt;<a href="mailto:markknecht@gmail.com">markknecht@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><
    blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><br>On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 4:57 AM Michael &lt;<a href="mailto:confabulate@kintzios.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
    confabulate@kintzios.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On Monday, 17 April 2023 00:29:49 BST Arsen Arsenović wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; Wol &lt;<a href="mailto:antlists@youngman.org.uk" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">antlists@youngman.org.uk</a>&gt; writes:<
    &gt; &gt; &gt; On 16/04/2023 22:30, Mitch D. wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Wol, can you elaborate on why you think Grub is deprecated on EFI<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; systems?<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Because EFI is a boot manager?<br>&gt; &gt;<
    &gt; &gt; That is not the case any more than the classic IBM PC boot procedure is.<br>&gt; &gt; There is technical capability for UEFI firmware to act in such a manner,<br>&gt; &gt; but, in practice, this is not at all the case.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &
    gt; The technical capability comes from the fact that boot entities have a<br>&gt; &gt; lil&#39; bit of metadata attached to them.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The ability of UEFI to boot linux kernels, as long as they are built with the<br>&gt; EFI boot stub enabled,
    may render 3rd party boot managers and their boot<br>&gt; loaders redundant.  However, as already mentioned below, the flexibility and<br>&gt; customisability of GRUB and other boot manager exceeds any UEFI firmware I&#39;ve<br>&gt; come across.<br>&gt;
    <br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Why chain-load boot managers?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; In theory, EFI implementations should provide boot<br>&gt; &gt; managers. Unfortunately, in practice these boot managers are often so<br>&gt; &gt; poor as to be useless.
    The worst I&#39;ve personally encountered is on<br>&gt; &gt; Gigabyte&#39;s Hybrid EFI, which provides you with no boot options<br>&gt; &gt; whatsoever, beyond choosing the boot device (hard disk vs. optical disc,<br>&gt; &gt; for instance). I&#39;ve
    heard of others that are just as bad. For this<br>&gt; &gt; reason, a good EFI boot manager—either standalone or as part of a boot<br>&gt; &gt; loader—is a practical necessity for multi-booting on an EFI<br>&gt; &gt; computer. That&#39;s where rEFInd
    comes into play.<br>&gt; &gt;   - <a href="https://rodsbooks.com/refind/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://rodsbooks.com/refind/</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; I&#39;ve stopped using GRUB and have been using the UEFI firmware to boot directly<br>&gt;
    Gentoo for more than 10 years now.  Given I have also flashed some of the<br>&gt; MoBos&#39; chipset with new UEFI firmware a dozen times or more, I have not<br>&gt; experienced any MoBo failures as yet.  Also, the ESP partition formatted with<br>&gt;
    FAT32 has remained quite resilient too.  No loss of data or fs corruption yet<br>&gt; (keeps fingers crossed and checks backups).<br>&gt;<br>&gt; My particular systems setup and use case suits this approach, but I appreciate<br>&gt; people who multiboot
    daily/frequently, or need to boot LiveISOs off the disk<br>&gt; may find GRUB and friends to be a more suitable solution.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br><div><br></div><div>My needs are quite simple but efibootmgr, set up by the Kubuntu install </div><div>on a
    separate M.2 from the Windows install the machine came with, works for </div><div>me. I always start the day in Kubuntu, then reboot to Windows if I&#39;m working</div><div>on music:</div><br>1) The simple view of the two installations:<br><br>mark@
    science2:~$ efibootmgr  <br>BootCurrent: 0003<br>Timeout: 1 seconds<br>BootOrder: 0003,0000<br>Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager<br>Boot0003* ubuntu<br>mark@science2:~$<br><br>2) The more complicated view with GUIDs and such:<br><br>mark@science2:~$
    efibootmgr -v<br>BootCurrent: 0003<br>Timeout: 1 seconds<br>BootOrder: 0003,0000<br>Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager  HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EF<br>I\MICROSOFT\BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI)WINDOWS.........x...B.C.D.O.B.J.E.
    C.T.=.{.9.d.e.a.8.6.2.c.-.5.c.d.d.-.4<br>.e.7.0.-.a.c.c.1.-.f.3.2.b.3.4.4.d.4.7.9.5.}....................<br>Boot0003* ubuntu        HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EFI\UBUNTU<br>\SHIMX64.EFI)<br>mark@science2:~$<br>
    <br>3) To get to Windows I can choose it in the OS screen if I&#39;m sitting there<div>but the most reliable way for me to get from Kubuntu to Windows is to just</div><div>tell the system to go to Windows at the next boot using a batch file in</div><div>
    Kubuntu:</div><div><br>mark@science2:~$ cat bin/RebootWindows  <br>sudo efibootmgr -n 0000<br>reboot<br>mark@science2:~$</div><div><br></div><div>The &#39;problem&#39; with this setup is that all of the grub/efibootmgr stuff</div><div>is on both drives
    and I&#39;m never sure which drive is being used at </div><div>which time as I have Kubuntu on nvme1 and Windows boot</div><div>manager on nvme0 which I&#39;m never comfortable with but the </div><div>Ubuntu stuff figured it out so I don&#39;t argue.
    Pity me if I ever have to</div><div>do a reinstall.</div><div><br></div>mark@science2:~$ df -h<br>Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on<br>tmpfs           3.2G  3.7M  3.2G   1% /run<br>/dev/nvme1n1p3  916G  622G  248G  72% /<br>
    tmpfs            16G   66M   16G   1% /dev/shm<br>tmpfs           5.0M  4.0K  5.0M   1% /run/lock<br>/dev/nvme0n1p1   96M   32M   65M  33% /boot/efi<br>tmpfs           3.2G   64K  3.2G   1% /run/user/1000<br>mark@science2:~$<
    </div></div>
    </blockquote></div></div></div>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 17 17:20:01 2023
    On Monday, 17 April 2023 14:31:08 BST Mark Knecht wrote:

    My needs are quite simple but efibootmgr, set up by the Kubuntu install
    on a separate M.2 from the Windows install the machine came with, works for me. I always start the day in Kubuntu, then reboot to Windows if I'm working on music:

    1) The simple view of the two installations:

    mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr
    BootCurrent: 0003
    Timeout: 1 seconds
    BootOrder: 0003,0000
    Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager
    Boot0003* ubuntu
    mark@science2:~$

    2) The more complicated view with GUIDs and such:

    mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr -v
    BootCurrent: 0003
    Timeout: 1 seconds
    BootOrder: 0003,0000
    Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager
    HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EF I\MICROSOFT\BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI)WINDOWS.........x...B.C.D.O.B.J.E.C.T.=.{.9.d. e.a.8.6.2.c.-.5.c.d.d.-.4 .e.7.0.-.a.c.c.1.-.f.3.2.b.3.4.4.d.4.7.9.5.}....................
    Boot0003* ubuntu
    HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EFI\UBUN TU \SHIMX64.EFI)
    mark@science2:~$

    This shows the efibootmgr is using the first disk and boots the Windows BOOTMGFW.EFI, or Ubuntu's shimX64.efi from there.


    3) To get to Windows I can choose it in the OS screen if I'm sitting there but the most reliable way for me to get from Kubuntu to Windows is to just tell the system to go to Windows at the next boot using a batch file in Kubuntu:

    mark@science2:~$ cat bin/RebootWindows
    sudo efibootmgr -n 0000
    reboot
    mark@science2:~$

    The 'problem' with this setup is that all of the grub/efibootmgr stuff
    is on both drives

    Are you sure?


    and I'm never sure which drive is being used at
    which time as I have Kubuntu on nvme1 and Windows boot
    manager on nvme0 which I'm never comfortable with but the
    Ubuntu stuff figured it out so I don't argue. Pity me if I ever have to
    do a reinstall.

    mark@science2:~$ df -h
    Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
    tmpfs 3.2G 3.7M 3.2G 1% /run
    /dev/nvme1n1p3 916G 622G 248G 72% /
    tmpfs 16G 66M 16G 1% /dev/shm
    tmpfs 5.0M 4.0K 5.0M 1% /run/lock
    /dev/nvme0n1p1 96M 32M 65M 33% /boot/efi

    This is where the ESP is mounted, but you'll find /boot directory is on your / dev/nvme1n1p3 block device, along with your kernels, initrd images and
    vimlinuz symlinks.

    Your GRUB EFI bootable image is on /dev/nvme0n1p1, under /boot/efi/EFI/ubuntu/

    tmpfs 3.2G 64K 3.2G 1% /run/user/1000
    mark@science2:~$

    I would think Ubuntu installed GRUB on nvme0n1p1 ESP, which it detected by scanning your disks. If your nvme0n1p1 fails and has to be removed, you will need to create a new ESP somewhere on the ubuntu disk and then you can reinstall GRUB after you reboot with a LiveUSB, or while still running ubuntu.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mark Knecht@21:1/5 to confabulate@kintzios.com on Mon Apr 17 19:00:01 2023
    On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 8:18 AM Michael <confabulate@kintzios.com> wrote:

    On Monday, 17 April 2023 14:31:08 BST Mark Knecht wrote:
    <SNIP>
    2) The more complicated view with GUIDs and such:

    mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr -v
    BootCurrent: 0003
    Timeout: 1 seconds
    BootOrder: 0003,0000
    Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager
    HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EF

    I\MICROSOFT\BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI)WINDOWS.........x...B.C.D.O.B.J.E.C.T.=.{.9.d.
    e.a.8.6.2.c.-.5.c.d.d.-.4 .e.7.0.-.a.c.c.1.-.f.3.2.b.3.4.4.d.4.7.9.5.}....................
    Boot0003* ubuntu

    HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EFI\UBUN
    TU \SHIMX64.EFI)
    mark@science2:~$

    This shows the efibootmgr is using the first disk and boots the Windows BOOTMGFW.EFI, or Ubuntu's shimX64.efi from there.

    OK, that part makes perfect sense and the files are there.

    Additionally the GUID in each HD(...) entry matches the GUID on
    /dev/nvme0n1p1
    which has a type "EFI system partition" in fdisk. Good so far.

    <SNIP>

    The 'problem' with this setup is that all of the grub/efibootmgr stuff
    is on both drives

    Are you sure?

    Yes, there is a directory but that directory, which did have a Kubuntu
    boot image in the past, is now empty.

    HISTORY. I bought the computer with Win 10 installed and a
    second empty M.2 drive. To install Kubuntu I switched BIOS to
    boot from that drive, installed Kubuntu which populated the EFI
    directory with all of the stuff you're showing me. I did not know about
    the efibootmgr at the time as this was my fist new MB in about 8
    years.

    Early on I went to Windows by changing BIOS because, for what
    ever reason the Kubuntu install didn't see the Windows disk. I
    am assuming that was probably me completely disabling it in
    BIOS but I don't remember the details.

    Later on a Kubuntu update found Windows, updated the EFI
    stuff on the Windows drive and then, I see this morning,
    erased everything out of the Kubuntu EFI partition but
    left the partition there.

    <SNIP>i

    This is where the ESP is mounted, but you'll find /boot directory is on
    your /
    dev/nvme1n1p3 block device, along with your kernels, initrd images and vimlinuz symlinks.


    Correct.

    ESP? EFI System Partition possibly?


    Your GRUB EFI bootable image is on /dev/nvme0n1p1, under
    /boot/efi/EFI/ubuntu/

    tmpfs 3.2G 64K 3.2G 1% /run/user/1000
    mark@science2:~$

    I would think Ubuntu installed GRUB on nvme0n1p1 ESP, which it detected by scanning your disks. If your nvme0n1p1 fails and has to be removed, you
    will
    need to create a new ESP somewhere on the ubuntu disk and then you can reinstall GRUB after you reboot with a LiveUSB, or while still running
    ubuntu.

    Understood. Thanks.

    One thing I haven't decoded is why Windows is 0000 and Kubuntu is 0003.

    I now better understand Mitch D.'s point that the pointers to which OS to
    boot are not in a disk file, like the old grub configuration, but rather in Flash memory on the motherboard. I suppose the numbering is just the
    luck of the draw, or that 0001 and 0002 were used at one time and no longer present, but that's just a guess.

    For anyone following along or reading later, there's an easily read web page
    on things you can do with efibootmgr located here:

    https://www.linuxbabe.com/command-line/how-to-use-linux-efibootmgr-examples

    Also, the Windows app similar to efibootmgr (but untested by me) is
    possibly called bootcfg.exe

    - Mark

    <div dir="ltr"><br><br>On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 8:18 AM Michael &lt;<a href="mailto:confabulate@kintzios.com">confabulate@kintzios.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On Monday, 17 April 2023 14:31:08 BST Mark Knecht wrote:<br>&lt;SNIP&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 2)
    The more complicated view with GUIDs and such:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; mark@science2:~$ efibootmgr -v<br>&gt; &gt; BootCurrent: 0003<br>&gt; &gt; Timeout: 1 seconds<br>&gt; &gt; BootOrder: 0003,0000<br>&gt; &gt; Boot0000* Windows Boot Manager<br>&gt; &
    gt;  HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EF<br>&gt; &gt; I\MICROSOFT\BOOT\BOOTMGFW.EFI)WINDOWS.........x...B.C.D.O.B.J.E.C.T.=.{.9.d.<br>&gt; &gt; e.a.8.6.2.c.-.5.c.d.d.-.4<br>&gt; &gt; .e.7.0.-.a.c.c.1.-.f.3.2.b.3.4.4.d.4.
    7.9.5.}....................<br>&gt; &gt; Boot0003* ubuntu<br>&gt; &gt;  HD(1,GPT,2052c843-0057-494a-a749-e8ec3676514a,0x800,0x32000)/File(\EFI\UBUN<br>&gt; &gt; TU \SHIMX64.EFI)<br>&gt; &gt; mark@science2:~$<br>&gt;<br>&gt; This shows the efibootmgr is
    using the first disk and boots the Windows<br>&gt; BOOTMGFW.EFI, or Ubuntu&#39;s shimX64.efi from there.<div><br></div><div>OK, that part makes perfect sense and the files are there.</div><br>Additionally the GUID in each HD(...) entry matches the GUID
    on /dev/nvme0n1p1<br>which has a type &quot;EFI system partition&quot; in fdisk. Good so far.<div><span style="font-family:monospace"><font color="#000000"><br></font></span></div><div>&lt;SNIP&gt;</div><div><br>&gt; &gt; The &#39;problem&#39; with this
    setup is that all of the grub/efibootmgr stuff<br>&gt; &gt; is on both drives<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Are you sure?</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, there is a directory but that directory, which did have a Kubuntu </div><div>boot image in the past, is now empty.</
    <div><br></div><div>HISTORY. I bought the computer with Win 10 installed and a</div><div>second empty M.2 drive. To install Kubuntu I switched BIOS to</div><div>boot from that drive, installed Kubuntu which populated the EFI</div><div>directory with
    all of the stuff you&#39;re showing me. I did not know about</div><div>the efibootmgr at the time as this was my fist new MB in about 8 </div><div>years.</div><div><br></div><div>Early on I went to Windows by changing BIOS because, for what</div><div>
    ever reason the Kubuntu install didn&#39;t see the Windows disk. I </div><div>am assuming that was probably me completely disabling it in</div><div>BIOS but I don&#39;t remember the details. </div><div><br></div><div>Later on a Kubuntu update found
    Windows, updated the EFI</div><div>stuff on the Windows drive and then, I see this morning,</div><div>erased everything out of the Kubuntu EFI partition but </div><div>left the partition there.</div><div><br></div><div>&lt;SNIP&gt;i<br>&gt;<br>&gt; This
    is where the ESP is mounted, but you&#39;ll find /boot directory is on your /<br>&gt; dev/nvme1n1p3 block device, along with your kernels, initrd images and<br>&gt; vimlinuz symlinks.<br>&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>Correct.</div><div><br></div><div>ESP?
    EFI System Partition possibly?</div><div><br></div><div><br>&gt; Your GRUB EFI bootable image is on /dev/nvme0n1p1, under /boot/efi/EFI/ubuntu/<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; tmpfs           3.2G   64K  3.2G   1% /run/user/1000<br>&gt; &gt; mark@science2:~
    $<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I would think Ubuntu installed GRUB on nvme0n1p1 ESP, which it detected by<br>&gt; scanning your disks.  If your nvme0n1p1 fails and has to be removed, you will<br>&gt; need to create a new ESP somewhere on the ubuntu disk and then you
    can<br>&gt; reinstall GRUB after you reboot with a LiveUSB, or while still running ubuntu.<br><br></div><div>Understood. Thanks.</div><div><br></div><div>One thing I haven&#39;t decoded is why Windows is 0000 and Kubuntu is 0003.</div><div><br></div><div>
    I now better understand Mitch D.&#39;s point that the pointers to which OS to </div><div>boot are not in a disk file, like the old grub configuration, but rather in </div><div>Flash memory on the motherboard. I suppose the numbering is just the</div><
    luck of the draw, or that 0001 and 0002 were used at one time and no longer</div><div>present, but that&#39;s just a guess. </div><div><br></div><div>For anyone following along or reading later, there&#39;s an easily read web page</div><div>on
    things you can do with efibootmgr located here:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.linuxbabe.com/command-line/how-to-use-linux-efibootmgr-examples">https://www.linuxbabe.com/command-line/how-to-use-linux-efibootmgr-examples</a><br></div><div><
    </div><div>Also, the Windows app similar to efibootmgr (but untested by me) is </div><div>possibly called bootcfg.exe</div><div><br></div><div>- Mark</div></div>

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  • From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 17 19:20:01 2023
    On Monday, 17 April 2023 17:52:25 BST Mark Knecht wrote:

    One thing I haven't decoded is why Windows is 0000 and Kubuntu is 0003.

    See below ...


    I now better understand Mitch D.'s point that the pointers to which OS to boot are not in a disk file, like the old grub configuration, but rather in Flash memory on the motherboard. I suppose the numbering is just the
    luck of the draw, or that 0001 and 0002 were used at one time and no longer present, but that's just a guess.

    Exactly the latter, they are no longer present. I copy kernel images manually to /boot/EFI/Gentoo/ and run 'efibootmgr --create' to add entries to the UEFI boot menu with my choice of labels. They are added being numbered incrementally. If I remove some of the older menu entries, their
    corresponding numbers are also removed and become available for any new bootable .efi images I may add in the future.

    In addition, if I boot with any USB drives attached, the UEFI firmware will scan such devices and add any bootable images to the UEFI boot menu stored in NVRAM, by numbering such images incrementally. This will further increase the numbers of boot menu entries, which once the USB devices are removed their entry number will become vacant and available to be reallocated.

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  • From Mark Knecht@21:1/5 to confabulate@kintzios.com on Mon Apr 17 19:40:01 2023
    On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 10:11 AM Michael <confabulate@kintzios.com> wrote:

    On Monday, 17 April 2023 17:52:25 BST Mark Knecht wrote:

    One thing I haven't decoded is why Windows is 0000 and Kubuntu is 0003.

    See below ...


    I now better understand Mitch D.'s point that the pointers to which OS
    to
    boot are not in a disk file, like the old grub configuration, but
    rather in
    Flash memory on the motherboard. I suppose the numbering is just the
    luck of the draw, or that 0001 and 0002 were used at one time and no
    longer
    present, but that's just a guess.

    Exactly the latter, they are no longer present. I copy kernel images
    manually
    to /boot/EFI/Gentoo/ and run 'efibootmgr --create' to add entries to the
    UEFI
    boot menu with my choice of labels. They are added being numbered incrementally. If I remove some of the older menu entries, their corresponding numbers are also removed and become available for any new bootable .efi images I may add in the future.

    In addition, if I boot with any USB drives attached, the UEFI firmware
    will
    scan such devices and add any bootable images to the UEFI boot menu
    stored in
    NVRAM, by numbering such images incrementally. This will further
    increase the
    numbers of boot menu entries, which once the USB devices are removed their entry number will become vacant and available to be reallocated.


    Ah, so in that case if I booted the original Kubuntu install from a USB
    stick
    then possibly an entry was used doing that. I also used memtest86 prior
    to the Kubuntu install so possibly that was an entry.

    Anyway, it makes more sense now.

    If you go back into the archives for this list, list December I asked a question
    "Duel boot - How to verify boot loader updates?". That was maybe a month
    or two after I noticed the Kubuntu ESP being changed and the Windows
    ESP being mounted instead. I just never finished the thread what with the holidays and visitors, etc.

    I appreciate the help so thanks and maybe the thread will help someone
    else one of these days.

    Cheers,
    Mark

    <div dir="ltr"><br><br>On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 10:11 AM Michael &lt;<a href="mailto:confabulate@kintzios.com" target="_blank">confabulate@kintzios.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On Monday, 17 April 2023 17:52:25 BST Mark Knecht wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&
    gt; &gt; One thing I haven&#39;t decoded is why Windows is 0000 and Kubuntu is 0003.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; See below ...<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I now better understand Mitch D.&#39;s point that the pointers to which OS to<br>&gt; &gt; boot are not in a
    disk file, like the old grub configuration, but rather in<br>&gt; &gt; Flash memory on the motherboard. I suppose the numbering is just the<br>&gt; &gt; luck of the draw, or that 0001 and 0002 were used at one time and no longer<br>&gt; &gt; present, but
    that&#39;s just a guess.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Exactly the latter, they are no longer present.  I copy kernel images manually<br>&gt; to /boot/EFI/Gentoo/ and run &#39;efibootmgr --create&#39; to add entries to the UEFI<br>&gt; boot menu with my choice of
    labels.  They are added being numbered<br>&gt; incrementally.  If I remove some of the older menu entries, their<br>&gt; corresponding numbers are also removed and become available for any new<br>&gt; bootable .efi images I may add in the future.<br>&
    gt;<br>&gt; In addition, if I boot with any USB drives attached, the UEFI firmware will<br>&gt; scan such devices and add any bootable images to the UEFI boot menu stored in<br>&gt; NVRAM, by numbering such images incrementally.  This will further
    increase the<br>&gt; numbers of boot menu entries, which once the USB devices are removed their<br>&gt; entry number will become vacant and available to be reallocated.<br>&gt;<br><br><div>Ah, so in that case if I booted the original Kubuntu install from
    a USB stick</div><div>then possibly an entry was used doing that. I also used memtest86 prior </div><div>to the Kubuntu install so possibly that was an entry.</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, it makes more sense now.</div><div><br></div>If you go back
    into the archives for this list, list December I asked a question<br>&quot;Duel boot - How to verify boot loader updates?&quot;. That was maybe a month<div>or two after I noticed the Kubuntu ESP being changed and the Windows</div><div>ESP being mounted
    instead. I just never finished the thread what with the</div><div>holidays and visitors, etc. </div><div><br></div><div>I appreciate the help so thanks and maybe the thread will help someone </div><div>else one of these days.</div><div><br></div><div>
    Cheers,</div><div>Mark</div></div>

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  • From Dr Rainer Woitok@21:1/5 to you on Mon Apr 17 22:30:01 2023
    Mitch,

    On Monday, 2023-04-17 08:15:51 -0400, you wrote:

    I just took a quick glance at the ebuild, and it looks like it should print
    a reminder ("Re-run grub-install to update installed boot code!") every
    time you upgrade from an older version to a newer one, but it also looks
    like the reminder gets skipped if you're re-emerging the same version.

    https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-boot/grub/grub-2.06-r4.ebuild#n314

    Thankyou very much for this information. But is there anyone out there
    who skims through tons of SUCCESSFUL emerge log files after every rou-
    tine upgrade? Personally, I only check the logs in case of build fai-
    lures or conflicts.

    By the way, I only see this message in the build logs for versions 2.06-
    r4 and 2.06-r6, but not in older logs. So maybe that's a rather new ad-
    dition to the ebuild file?

    Since I do my routine upgrades via a script anyway, I now retrieve the
    name of the most recent Grub build log before I really start "emerge"
    and after "emerge" finished, and if the two names differ and the newer
    file contains this "Re-run ..." message, I now run "grub-install" from
    within this script. Problem solved.

    But I have the vague feeling there should be a more foolproof solution.

    Sincerely,
    Rainer

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  • From Lee@21:1/5 to antlists@youngman.org.uk on Mon Apr 17 22:50:01 2023
    Never mix Windows with real OS's if you can avoid it. I have separate
    machine for Windows.

    Lee 😎

    On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 1:41 PM Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:

    On 17/04/2023 17:52, Mark Knecht wrote:
    Later on a Kubuntu update found Windows, updated the EFI
    stuff on the Windows drive and then, I see this morning,
    erased everything out of the Kubuntu EFI partition but
    left the partition there.

    I had a similar problem trying to install SUSE to dual boot a laptop. I
    made the mistake of letting Windows wipe the disk and install itself,
    with the result I was left with a tiny EFI partition. I couldn't install linux because there was no room.

    My latest attempt (when I get gentoo video working) will be to *add*
    Windows to a working system.

    Cheers,
    Wol



    <div dir="auto">Never mix Windows with real OS&#39;s if you can avoid it. I have separate machine for Windows.<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Lee 😎</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17,
    2023, 1:41 PM Wols Lists &lt;<a href="mailto:antlists@youngman.org.uk">antlists@youngman.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 17/04/2023 17:52, Mark Knecht
    wrote:<br>
    &gt; Later on a Kubuntu update found Windows, updated the EFI<br>
    &gt; stuff on the Windows drive and then, I see this morning,<br>
    &gt; erased everything out of the Kubuntu EFI partition but<br>
    &gt; left the partition there.<br>

    I had a similar problem trying to install SUSE to dual boot a laptop. I <br> made the mistake of letting Windows wipe the disk and install itself, <br>
    with the result I was left with a tiny EFI partition. I couldn&#39;t install <br>
    linux because there was no room.<br>

    My latest attempt (when I get gentoo video working) will be to *add* <br> Windows to a working system.<br>

    Cheers,<br>
    Wol<br>

    </blockquote></div>

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  • From Mitch D.@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 17 22:50:01 2023
    You can probably use a portage hook to do it. I haven't tested it, but something along the lines of creating a file at "/etc/portage/env/sys-boot/grub" which contains an implementation of the "post_pkg_postinst()" function. Then, you can copy the logic from the
    ebuild to determine whether the version number has changed. Realistically though, I'd probably skip the conditional logic and let the hook run grub-install every time.

    Some ebuilds print rather important messages, and if you're updating
    software regularly, there shouldn't be tons of messages in /var/log/portage/elog/summary.log. At the very least, I would configure it
    to email me a copy of the messages so that I can review them as soon as I
    can.

    On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 4:26 PM Dr Rainer Woitok <rainer.woitok@gmail.com> wrote:

    Mitch,

    On Monday, 2023-04-17 08:15:51 -0400, you wrote:

    I just took a quick glance at the ebuild, and it looks like it should
    print
    a reminder ("Re-run grub-install to update installed boot code!") every time you upgrade from an older version to a newer one, but it also looks like the reminder gets skipped if you're re-emerging the same version.


    https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-boot/grub/grub-2.06-r4.ebuild#n314

    Thankyou very much for this information. But is there anyone out there
    who skims through tons of SUCCESSFUL emerge log files after every rou-
    tine upgrade? Personally, I only check the logs in case of build fai- lures or conflicts.

    By the way, I only see this message in the build logs for versions 2.06-
    r4 and 2.06-r6, but not in older logs. So maybe that's a rather new ad- dition to the ebuild file?

    Since I do my routine upgrades via a script anyway, I now retrieve the
    name of the most recent Grub build log before I really start "emerge"
    and after "emerge" finished, and if the two names differ and the newer
    file contains this "Re-run ..." message, I now run "grub-install" from within this script. Problem solved.

    But I have the vague feeling there should be a more foolproof solution.

    Sincerely,
    Rainer


    <div dir="ltr">You can probably use a portage hook to do it. I haven&#39;t tested it, but something along the lines of creating a file at &quot;/etc/portage/env/sys-boot/grub&quot; which contains an implementation of the &quot;post_pkg_postinst()&quot;
    function. Then, you can copy the logic from the ebuild to determine whether the version number has changed. Realistically though, I&#39;d probably skip the conditional logic and let the hook run grub-install every time.<div><br></div><div>Some ebuilds
    print rather important messages, and if you&#39;re updating software regularly, there shouldn&#39;t be tons of messages in /var/log/portage/elog/summary.log. At the very least, I would configure it to email me a copy of the messages so that I can review
    them as soon as I can.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 4:26 PM Dr Rainer Woitok &lt;<a href="mailto:rainer.woitok@gmail.com">rainer.woitok@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote
    class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Mitch,<br>

    On Monday, 2023-04-17 08:15:51 -0400, you wrote:<br>

    &gt; I just took a quick glance at the ebuild, and it looks like it should print<br>
    &gt; a reminder (&quot;Re-run grub-install to update installed boot code!&quot;) every<br>
    &gt; time you upgrade from an older version to a newer one, but it also looks<br>
    &gt; like the reminder gets skipped if you&#39;re re-emerging the same version.<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; <a href="https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-boot/grub/grub-2.06-r4.ebuild#n314" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-boot/grub/grub-2.06-r4.ebuild#n314</a><br>

    Thankyou very much for this information.   But is there anyone out there<br> who skims through  tons of SUCCESSFUL emerge log files  after every rou-<br> tine upgrade?   Personally,  I only check the logs in case of build fai-<br> lures or conflicts.<br>

    By the way, I only see this message in the build logs for versions 2.06-<br>
    r4 and 2.06-r6, but not in older logs.  So maybe that&#39;s a rather new ad-<br>
    dition to the ebuild file?<br>

    Since I do my routine upgrades  via a script anyway,  I now retrieve the<br> name of the most recent  Grub build log  before I really  start &quot;emerge&quot;<br>
    and after &quot;emerge&quot; finished,  and if the two names differ  and the newer<br>
    file contains this &quot;Re-run ...&quot; message,  I now run  &quot;grub-install&quot; from<br>
    within this script.  Problem solved.<br>

    But I have the vague feeling there should be a more foolproof solution.<br>

    Sincerely,<br>
      Rainer<br>
    </blockquote></div>

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  • From Wols Lists@21:1/5 to Mark Knecht on Mon Apr 17 22:50:01 2023
    On 17/04/2023 17:52, Mark Knecht wrote:
    Later on a Kubuntu update found Windows, updated the EFI
    stuff on the Windows drive and then, I see this morning,
    erased everything out of the Kubuntu EFI partition but
    left the partition there.

    I had a similar problem trying to install SUSE to dual boot a laptop. I
    made the mistake of letting Windows wipe the disk and install itself,
    with the result I was left with a tiny EFI partition. I couldn't install
    linux because there was no room.

    My latest attempt (when I get gentoo video working) will be to *add*
    Windows to a working system.

    Cheers,
    Wol

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Humphrey@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 18 00:40:01 2023
    On Monday, 17 April 2023 21:41:09 BST Wols Lists wrote:
    On 17/04/2023 17:52, Mark Knecht wrote:
    Later on a Kubuntu update found Windows, updated the EFI
    stuff on the Windows drive and then, I see this morning,
    erased everything out of the Kubuntu EFI partition but
    left the partition there.

    I had a similar problem trying to install SUSE to dual boot a laptop. I
    made the mistake of letting Windows wipe the disk and install itself,
    with the result I was left with a tiny EFI partition. I couldn't install linux because there was no room.

    My latest attempt (when I get gentoo video working) will be to *add*
    Windows to a working system.

    Can you not just resize the partition?

    --
    Regards,
    Peter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Wols Lists@21:1/5 to Peter Humphrey on Tue Apr 18 06:50:01 2023
    On 17/04/2023 23:36, Peter Humphrey wrote:
    On Monday, 17 April 2023 21:41:09 BST Wols Lists wrote:
    On 17/04/2023 17:52, Mark Knecht wrote:
    Later on a Kubuntu update found Windows, updated the EFI
    stuff on the Windows drive and then, I see this morning,
    erased everything out of the Kubuntu EFI partition but
    left the partition there.

    I had a similar problem trying to install SUSE to dual boot a laptop. I
    made the mistake of letting Windows wipe the disk and install itself,
    with the result I was left with a tiny EFI partition. I couldn't install
    linux because there was no room.

    My latest attempt (when I get gentoo video working) will be to *add*
    Windows to a working system.

    Can you not just resize the partition?

    Not any more :-)

    But I don't tend to do that sort of thing. Which is why my main (linux
    only) machine has pretty much all the disk in one huge raid partition
    with lvm on top ...

    Cheers,
    Wol

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)