Hi,

Currently the Gentoo Github PR queue is at 577 open PRs that even
includes one that has been left open in 2018 and neglected since 2021.

While not trying to be rude before contributing to Gentoo I was involved
with Slackbuilds.org for Slackware where everything gets reviewed once
a week with only a handful of maintainers doing the reviewing process.

Why does Gentoo lets PRs indefinitely sit around and collect dust? Its extremely discouraging for contributors if their work just gets ignored.
With some extra work I imagine its possible to get the PR queue to a
much more manageable size where work doesn't get lost.

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On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 10:19:29 -0400
Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 07:07 -0700, orbea wrote:

Why does Gentoo lets PRs indefinitely sit around and collect dust?
Its extremely discouraging for contributors if their work just gets ignored. With some extra work I imagine its possible to get the PR
queue to a much more manageable size where work doesn't get lost.

Reviewing a PR takes longer than doing it yourself would, and if you
had time to do it yourself there wouldn't be a PR in the first place.

Understandable, but I still don't get how 1 or 2 people can take care
of SBo every week while Gentoo the process stagnates.

But also, Github sucks. Open bugs.

No disagreements and personally I wouldn't use Github if not for it
being beyond my control, but there are still 235 open PRs with bugs
assigned.

https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22bug+linked%22

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On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 07:46 -0700, orbea wrote:

Understandable, but I still don't get how 1 or 2 people can take care
of SBo every week while Gentoo the process stagnates.

Probably due to compartmentalization. In Gentoo you're often waiting
for one maintainer. Or worse, waiting for one "project" consisting of
several people none of whom actually care about the package the PR
touches.

But also, Github sucks. Open bugs.

No disagreements and personally I wouldn't use Github if not for it
being beyond my control, but there are still 235 open PRs with bugs
assigned.

https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22bug+linked%22

Linking a bug was a half-hearted attempt to appease the folks who think
that Gentoo development shouldn't depend on proprietary software (per
our social contract). But if the bug just points me to Github, it
doesn't really change anything.

I of course have a comprehensive list of Github complaints in mind 24
hours a day, but they're not especially relevant. What is relevant is
that some other developers have their own list, and sometimes you're
waiting on one developer who doesn't like to use Github for whatever
reason. My personal PR queue is of length zero, so I'm not making
excuses, but when you want something done for free it's in your best
interest to make it easy for the person who has to do it.

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On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 07:07 -0700, orbea wrote:

Why does Gentoo lets PRs indefinitely sit around and collect dust? Its extremely discouraging for contributors if their work just gets ignored.
With some extra work I imagine its possible to get the PR queue to a
much more manageable size where work doesn't get lost.

Reviewing a PR takes longer than doing it yourself would, and if you
had time to do it yourself there wouldn't be a PR in the first place.

But also, Github sucks. Open bugs.

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This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------nP3UMsq8N6NdryX5GWnQBQzT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 11.8.2023 17.07, orbea wrote:

Hi,

Currently the Gentoo Github PR queue is at 577 open PRs that even
includes one that has been left open in 2018 and neglected since 2021.

That's a bit misleading. The PR in question is opened by a Gentoo
developer, and labeled as "do-not-merge". So maybe they lost interest,
or forgot? Ping in the PR if you want to see it finished. But there are
indeed tons of PRs open from 2020.

While not trying to be rude before contributing to Gentoo I was involved
with Slackbuilds.org for Slackware where everything gets reviewed once
a week with only a handful of maintainers doing the reviewing process.

We also have 32,000 PRs closed, while slackbuild is at 3000. And here
also only handful of members are putting effort in general PR review. So
I'd say we're doing pretty good in that regard.

Why does Gentoo lets PRs indefinitely sit around and collect dust? Its extremely discouraging for contributors if their work just gets ignored.
With some extra work I imagine its possible to get the PR queue to a
much more manageable size where work doesn't get lost.

It is discouraging I agree. Even for us. If you want to help, go through
the old PRs seeing which are relevant, ping the maintainers if the PR is waiting for action on their side, and let us know (via IRC for example)
which PRs are mergeable.

Now as to the problems. We've done some cleanups in the past, but in my
opinion it's no point in putting too much energy on that if there's are
many fresh PRs to look at. We shouldn't lose the momentum. There's also
this handy tool,
https://github.com/wimmuskee/gengee
which I used a lot in the past but haven't been able to recently due to
always looking at few week old PRs.

Another big issue is as mjo pointed out, not everyone uses GH. But don't
be fooled, I don't think you're gaining better record attaching your
work to bugzilla either. It really depends on the maintainer whether
they prefer contributions via GH or BZ, and we've tossed some ideas in
the past trying to show maintainer's preference, but nothing came of
those ideas. Then unfortunately some maintainers who'll ignore both exists.

There's pretty much only 1 project dealing with Github PRs (proxy-maint)
and that project only gets notified with packages under
maintainer-needed, or maintained via proxy-maint itself. This project
doesn't get notified for _every_ PR opened, which I believe is a common misconception. And it shouldn't either. There's simply too much incoming
mail even with few projects. So it's up to projects handling their own
PRs, but again, not everyone uses GH / care about PRs.

What I suggest for everyone to do:
1: open a bug that gets assigned to maintainer,
2: link your PR to the bug with "Bug:" or "Closes:" tag,
3: if no one reviews it for 2-4 weeks, pop into #gentoo-proxy-maint IRC
channel and ask someone to take a look.

Open bug is a requirement for other non-project members to merge your
work, since it allows maintainer timeout. Note that packages maintained
by base-system and toolchain can't be merged by devs outside these projects.

-- juippis

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Joonas Niilola <juippis@gentoo.org> writes:

[[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]]
On 11.8.2023 17.07, orbea wrote:

Hi,

Currently the Gentoo Github PR queue is at 577 open PRs that even
includes one that has been left open in 2018 and neglected since 2021.

That's a bit misleading. The PR in question is opened by a Gentoo
developer, and labeled as "do-not-merge". So maybe they lost interest,
or forgot? Ping in the PR if you want to see it finished. But there are indeed tons of PRs open from 2020.

While not trying to be rude before contributing to Gentoo I was involved
with Slackbuilds.org for Slackware where everything gets reviewed once
a week with only a handful of maintainers doing the reviewing process.

We also have 32,000 PRs closed, while slackbuild is at 3000. And here
also only handful of members are putting effort in general PR review. So
I'd say we're doing pretty good in that regard.

juippis' whole email nails the issue, but I'd just like to add that
there's kind of a baseline at ~400/~450 or so where everything below
that is PRs for new packages or long-obsolete stuff nobody closed yet,
or where we're waiting on the submitter. It's just that going ahead
and going over those is time-consuming and means we're spending less
time on active PRs which need looking at.

as for bz: it's far harder to review something on bz and if everyone
did that for their contributions, any backlog (which you can't
easily measure on bz either) would be far larger.

[...]

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On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 19:10:36 +0300
Joonas Niilola <juippis@gentoo.org> wrote:

On 11.8.2023 17.07, orbea wrote:

Hi,

Currently the Gentoo Github PR queue is at 577 open PRs that even
includes one that has been left open in 2018 and neglected since
2021.

That's a bit misleading. The PR in question is opened by a Gentoo
developer, and labeled as "do-not-merge". So maybe they lost interest,
or forgot? Ping in the PR if you want to see it finished. But there
are indeed tons of PRs open from 2020.

Good point, I should of looked closer and found a more appropriate
example.

While not trying to be rude before contributing to Gentoo I was
involved with Slackbuilds.org for Slackware where everything gets
reviewed once a week with only a handful of maintainers doing the
reviewing process.

We also have 32,000 PRs closed, while slackbuild is at 3000. And here
also only handful of members are putting effort in general PR review.
So I'd say we're doing pretty good in that regard.

Using github and gitlab are recent additions for SBo, their main repo
is maintained with cgit.

https://git.slackbuilds.org/slackbuilds/

More regular and trusted contributors push to their own branches which
get merged roughly once a week while other people use the submission
form.

https://slackbuilds.org/guidelines/

Where the pending and approved submissions are listed here.

https://slackbuilds.org/pending/
https://slackbuilds.org/ready/

Again these get merged about once a week where the SBo maintainers fix
any minor issues themselves and contact the submitter usually via irc
or e-mail for anything more involved.

Why does Gentoo lets PRs indefinitely sit around and collect dust?
Its extremely discouraging for contributors if their work just gets ignored. With some extra work I imagine its possible to get the PR
queue to a much more manageable size where work doesn't get lost.

It is discouraging I agree. Even for us. If you want to help, go
through the old PRs seeing which are relevant, ping the maintainers
if the PR is waiting for action on their side, and let us know (via
IRC for example) which PRs are mergeable.

Now as to the problems. We've done some cleanups in the past, but in
my opinion it's no point in putting too much energy on that if
there's are many fresh PRs to look at. We shouldn't lose the
momentum. There's also this handy tool,
https://github.com/wimmuskee/gengee
which I used a lot in the past but haven't been able to recently due
to always looking at few week old PRs.

Another big issue is as mjo pointed out, not everyone uses GH. But
don't be fooled, I don't think you're gaining better record attaching
your work to bugzilla either. It really depends on the maintainer
whether they prefer contributions via GH or BZ, and we've tossed some
ideas in the past trying to show maintainer's preference, but nothing
came of those ideas. Then unfortunately some maintainers who'll
ignore both exists.

There's pretty much only 1 project dealing with Github PRs
(proxy-maint) and that project only gets notified with packages under maintainer-needed, or maintained via proxy-maint itself. This project
doesn't get notified for _every_ PR opened, which I believe is a
common misconception. And it shouldn't either. There's simply too
much incoming mail even with few projects. So it's up to projects
handling their own PRs, but again, not everyone uses GH / care about
PRs.

What I suggest for everyone to do:
1: open a bug that gets assigned to maintainer,
2: link your PR to the bug with "Bug:" or "Closes:" tag,
3: if no one reviews it for 2-4 weeks, pop into #gentoo-proxy-maint
IRC channel and ask someone to take a look.

Open bug is a requirement for other non-project members to merge your
work, since it allows maintainer timeout. Note that packages
maintained by base-system and toolchain can't be merged by devs
outside these projects.

-- juippis

Perhaps the correct answer would be neither Bugzilla or Github?
Bugzilla may be a good way to track bugs, but attaching work to it can
be cumbersome. Meanwhile Github has the benefit of using git which can
be more convenient, but also is proprietary and owned by Microsoft.

However thank you for the in depth explanation.

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On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 12:54 PM Sam James <sam@gentoo.org> wrote:

juippis' whole email nails the issue, but I'd just like to add that
there's kind of a baseline at ~400/~450 or so where everything below
that is PRs for new packages or long-obsolete stuff nobody closed yet,
or where we're waiting on the submitter. It's just that going ahead
and going over those is time-consuming and means we're spending less
time on active PRs which need looking at.

++

In general the Gentoo workflow tends to be a bit different from a lot
of other projects as well, with quite a bit more individual
ownership/interest. Many distros just stick to core packages in a
main repo, and consign everything else to user-maintained
repos/overlays/etc, or tiers with lower expectations for quality.

Then you have all the build-related issues that can be hard to
reproduce/test, that other distros simply don't have to worry about
because they only support one or two build configurations.

Another thing I've seen in fairly large projects is auto-closing of issues/bugs/PRs/etc. If your submission sits around for more than a
few weeks without getting merged, a bot comes along and helpfully
marks it closed. That of course results in a nice low open-issue
count, but of course that doesn't mean those issues are actually
fixed.

--
Rich

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On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 11:11 AM Joonas Niilola <juippis@gentoo.org> wrote:

Another big issue is as mjo pointed out, not everyone uses GH.

"Not using GitHub" is not an excuse for a PR to sit ignored when it has a
bug attachment. Anyone can view a PR anonymously and clone the remote from
the read-only https URL. There's no "using github" required for that beyond clicking the link in the attached bug to see the PR and the remote
repository name. For the 202 "bug linked" (excluding "new package") PRs,
~50% are more than 6 months old. While that doesn't necessarily mean
they've been ignored (for the "not using GitHub" devs, the code could've
been merged that way without any interaction on the GH PR, then it would be
up to the submitter to close the PR), it still doesn't look great.

<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 11:11 AM Joonas Niilola &lt;<a href="mailto:juippis@gentoo.org">juippis@gentoo.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br> Another big issue is as mjo pointed out, not everyone uses GH.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&quot;Not using GitHub&quot; is not an excuse
for a PR to sit ignored when it has a bug attachment. Anyone can view a
PR anonymously and clone the remote from the read-only https URL. There&#39;s no &quot;using github&quot; required for that beyond clicking the link in the attached bug to see the PR and the remote repository name. For the 202 &quot;bug linked&quot; (
excluding &quot;new package&quot;) PRs, ~50% are more than 6 months old. While that doesn&#39;t necessarily mean they&#39;ve been ignored (for the &quot;not using GitHub&quot; devs, the code could&#39;ve been merged that way without any interaction on
the GH PR, then it would be up to the submitter to close the PR), it still doesn&#39;t look great.<br></div></div></div>

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On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 18:37 -0500, Gordon Pettey wrote:

"Not using GitHub" is not an excuse for a PR to sit ignored when it has a
bug attachment. Anyone can view a PR anonymously and clone the remote from the read-only https URL. There's no "using github" required for that beyond clicking the link in the attached bug to see the PR and the remote
repository name.

We went years with one developer refusing to fix tinderbox bugs because
the build logs were hosted on AWS instead of bugzilla.

These are Gentoo Linux developers. People who chose a corner case
operating system and then chose a corner case distribution of it and
then became a corner case of its userbase. As a result, you're going to
see some corner-case moral and technical principles. Telling someone
that those principles aren't an excuse just isn't going to get them to
help you any faster.

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On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 10:35 -0700, orbea wrote:

Perhaps the correct answer would be neither Bugzilla or Github?

A mailing list (whose archives work :o) with git-send-email threads
would be an improvement over both.

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On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 21:18 -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:

On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 10:35 -0700, orbea wrote:

Perhaps the correct answer would be neither Bugzilla or Github?

A mailing list (whose archives work :o) with git-send-email threads
would be an improvement over both.

I'm sure that having to go through 15 threads where people reposted
the same patches with updates to find all the comments will be a great productivity booster.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 21:18 Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 10:35 -0700, orbea wrote:

Perhaps the correct answer would be neither Bugzilla or Github?

A mailing list (whose archives work :o) with git-send-email threads
would be an improvement over both.

I don’t think replacing pull requests with mailing list posts would yield

any significant improvement. Personally, I am much less likely to go
through the trouble of fetching patches from my email than fetching a
branch from GitHub.

<div>On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 21:18 Michael Orlitzky &lt;<a href="mailto:mjo@gentoo.org">mjo@gentoo.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-
style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 10:35 -0700, orbea wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Perhaps the correct answer would be neither Bugzilla or Github?<br>

A mailing list (whose archives work :o) with git-send-email threads<br>
would be an improvement over both.<br>


</blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto">I don’t think replacing pull requests with mailing list posts would yield any significant improvement. Personally, I am much less likely to go through the trouble of fetching patches from my email than fetching
a branch from GitHub. </div>

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[2023-08-11 22:12:27-0400] Mike Gilbert:

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 21:18 Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

On Fri, 2023-08-11 at 10:35 -0700, orbea wrote:

Perhaps the correct answer would be neither Bugzilla or Github?

A mailing list (whose archives work :o) with git-send-email threads
would be an improvement over both.


I don’t think replacing pull requests with mailing list posts would yield >any significant improvement. Personally, I am much less likely to go

through the trouble of fetching patches from my email than fetching a
branch from GitHub.

Maybe there could be something that automatically pushes the mailing-list patches to GitHub? (and vice-versa?)

There was such a setup for a bit on Alpine Linux[1] using https://lists.sr.ht/ as software, Drew DeVault being the one that put it together.

1: https://lists.alpinelinux.org/~alpine/aports

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On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 18:37:10 -0500
Gordon Pettey <petteyg359@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 11:11 AM Joonas Niilola <juippis@gentoo.org>
wrote:

Another big issue is as mjo pointed out, not everyone uses GH.

"Not using GitHub" is not an excuse for a PR to sit ignored when it
has a bug attachment. Anyone can view a PR anonymously and clone the
remote from the read-only https URL. There's no "using github"
required for that beyond clicking the link in the attached bug to see
the PR and the remote repository name. For the 202 "bug linked"
(excluding "new package") PRs, ~50% are more than 6 months old. While
that doesn't necessarily mean they've been ignored (for the "not
using GitHub" devs, the code could've been merged that way without
any interaction on the GH PR, then it would be up to the submitter to
close the PR), it still doesn't look great.

You can just add a "Closes:" tag with the github PR url to the commit
message for it to be closed automatically. Using app-portage/pram can
also streamline the process of merging the commit. And if there are any
issues that need to be communicated there is e-mail or even irc in some
cases.

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